"God told us to tell you..."

[Myriad]

"... that you should turn off your lawn mower."

From Randi's 6/15/07 commentary, (http://www.randi.org/jr/2007-06/062207.html#i14)

IN CLOSING...

...A man approached me while I was mowing and said "Excuse me, sir, but we are having church down the road and your lawn mower is making too much noise. We prayed, and we believe God has instructed us to please ask you to stop until we are through." I was taken aback a little, but I apologized. I then asked the man what should I do if I prayed and felt God wanted me to mow the grass right now. He replied "Well, as there are many more people in our congregation, I would think he would listen to our prayers first."...


While the writer's (John Shaw Williams') response (telling the man he didn't believe a deity, whose existence he doubted anyhow, would bother about a lawnmower being too loud) was reasonable, I can't help seeing it as a missed opportunity for a better one.

I'd have said something like, "If you had just told me that the noise was bothering you, I'd gladly have stopped. If God wanted me to stop mowing, He could easily have made the mower stop. It wouldn't even need a miracle; this cranky thing breaks down all the time. But instead you come here and misrepresent your personal wishes as God's will. That's called taking the Lord's name in vain, and I believe it's a terrible sin."

If I was in a snarky mood, I might add (since the man appeared to be a talkative type anyhow), "Tell your congregation to consider the possibility -- though I don't pretend to speak for God so I can't say it's definitely so -- that the noise you hear when I start this machine up again is God's warning to repent that sin."

I'm a liberal theist so I could say the above quite sincerely. But it occurs to me that most atheists could also make the same argument, replacing "sin" with simply "wrong" or "immoral." (And modifying the last sentence accordingly, something to the effect of "If I stopped mowing now, I'd be rewarding and encouraging that immoral behavior.") One doesn't need to believe God exists to perceive that misrepresenting one's personal wishes as God's will -- in a social milieu filled with credulous believers -- is morally wrong. It's a prevalent practice that harms society in many different ways. It would be nice if it would meet a similar response whenever and wherever it's tried, on any scale, from the guy telling you God wants you to turn off your lawn mower, to every "God wants you to give me money" televangelist, right up to the highest chambers of church and state.

The alternative, getting into a dispute about whether God might actually want something different instead, or whether God actually exists -- as Mr. Williams did -- leaves unchallenged the idea that if God actually does exist (as the claimant will most likely always continue to believe) then it's okay to pass along (and/or dispute about) "His" wishes. Especially, "I don't believe God exists so I don't have to listen to you" leads only to impasse, as it did in this case -- the worshippers didn't get their quieter service, and Mr. Williams didn't shake the other man's elitism at all, only reinforced it. Addressing the core issue directly -- "I believe that you're misrepresenting your personal wishes as God's will, and that that's very wrong" -- will not, of course, magically lead to agreement in such cases. But at least it can, in my experience, put one's refusal to accept what "God told me to tell you" on at least equal comparable moral ground in the eyes of the claimant, which leads to better appreciation of one's position and, just maybe, a reconsideration of the practice.

Respectfully,
Myriad

[ShowerComic]

While the writer's response was reasonable, I can't help seeing it as a missed opportunity for a better one.

As they say hindsight is always 20/20

I'd have said something like, "If you had just told me that the noise was bothering you, I'd gladly have stopped. If God wanted me to stop mowing, He could easily have made the mower stop. It wouldn't even need a miracle; this cranky thing breaks down all the time. But instead you come here and misrepresent your personal wishes as God's will. That's called taking the Lord's name in vain, and I believe it's a terrible sin."

As an atheist, I would definitely call such divine intervention unconvincing. :)

However should there be a god who needs by belief in his or her existence he is free to produce a convincing miracle. :)

I most whole heartedly agree with the first part of your answer, in that honesty in such a situation is best. The second part however can lead on into a 'my god is better than your god' argument. However one might also point out that we don't know the writer's schedule. That might have been the only time free he had to mow the lawn. He might need to mow the lawn prior to an important event (such as an outdoor party or other event) He could them point out that while they have a right to their religious practice, and is sorry that the unavoidable noise interferes with their practice, he also has a right to live as he pleases, and that means mowing the lawn at that time. In so doing again explaining the honest need to mow the lawn at that time promotes harmony in the community. As he left it, it may appear that he intentionally mows the lawn at that time of day out of spite, or dislike of that religion. (or those religious people).

[Slimething]

The church was two blocks away. I have no problem having a conversation with anyone even one block away from a lawnmower. I've been in classrooms many times while the lawn is being mowed and the noise is only disruptive when the mower is right next to the window.

I suspect, as Williams may have, that this request was merely an attempt by the religious participants to control what everyone else on the outside was doing while they were being holy. ("Everyone should be in here!")

I wish he had merely pointed at the mower and then his ears and yelled that he couldn't hear over the mower and just kept on mowing. I've done that to JWs who come to call uninvited. (Like anyone ever invites them!)

[Myriad]

ERRATUM: The letter quoted and linked to is in the 6/22/07 Swift (which, confusingly enough, is as of this writing mislabeled as 6/22/08 in the Commentary Archives), not the 6/15/07 archive as I stated in the OP.

As they say hindsight is always 20/20


Which is why it can be helpful to think ahead, to how one might react the next time a similar situation arises. :)

As an atheist, I would definitely call such divine intervention unconvincing. :)


Naturally. But the hypothetical question was how God could have directly granted the congregation's wish for peace and quiet if it were indeed His will to do so. How He might convince Mr. Williams of something is a completely different question, and not at issue in this situation.

However should there be a god who needs by belief in his or her existence he is free to produce a convincing miracle. :)


No argument there. I feel the same way about welcoming any sign from God that I should e.g. join any particular church, or conduct myself in some substantially different way from how I do now. I require clear communication, as that is the only way I can avoid mistaking any random notion that happens to come into my mind as information from God.

I most whole heartedly agree with the first part of your answer, in that honesty in such a situation is best. The second part however can lead on into a 'my god is better than your god' argument.


Really? How so? I thought that my suggested approach, of pointing out the immorality of misrepresenting one's own personal wishes as God's commands, avoids that very problem. More likely, the counter-argument to that point will be a claim based on arbitrary authority (position in a church hierarchy, religious education, etc.) that the claimant must certainly know God's will better than you. But that is a weak argument for Christians, contradicted and condemned by the faith's own scriptures.

However one might also point out that we don't know the writer's schedule. That might have been the only time free he had to mow the lawn. He might need to mow the lawn prior to an important event (such as an outdoor party or other event) He could them point out that while they have a right to their religious practice, and is sorry that the unavoidable noise interferes with their practice, he also has a right to live as he pleases, and that means mowing the lawn at that time. In so doing again explaining the honest need to mow the lawn at that time promotes harmony in the community. As he left it, it may appear that he intentionally mows the lawn at that time of day out of spite, or dislike of that religion. (or those religious people).


In the full letter, Mr. Williams states that he would "probably have stopped mowing" if not for the speaker's elitist attitude. That suggests that the need to mow was not urgent. But regardless: I agree with Mr. Williams' decision, in the given circumstances, to continue mowing, so in principle it doesn't matter if the need was not urgent.

Respectfully,
Myriad

[arthwollipot]

I've been two blocks away from church services at times, and I find all their singing and shouting to be far more annoying than someone mowing the lawn.

[arthwollipot]

Double post

[Brown]

On the subject of churches an noise, I refer to one of my earlier posts (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=320542&postcount=133):I used to live in downtown Minneapolis. Several large churches were nearby, of various denominations. Perhaps the most well known of the churches was the Basilica of St. Mary.

Many of the churches had sets of bells. And there apparently had been some sort of keeping-up-with-the-Joneses competition to see which church could have the most bells, the loudest bells, and who could play the bells the longest.

The bottom line was: sleeping late on Sunday morning was not an option because of all the damned bell-ringing that went on, seemingly for hours. It was a damned nuisance.

[rjh01]

Come live in Australia. Church bells are rare. I do not think I have heard them at any time here.

Only a small minority go to church (or other place of worship) in any week.

[arthwollipot]

I don't believe I'd describe it as "a small minority", but they are certainly less noisy about it.