Saudis and 9/11

[Oliver]

I don't want to start another endless discussion - so I ask the debunkers:

What is the Saudi connection - if you researched this issue? And what are your conclusions ... case closed?

[gumboot]

I don't want to start another endless discussion - so I ask the debunkers:

What is the Saudi connection - if you researched this issue? And what are your conclusions ... case closed?


People born in Saudi Arabia were involved in the attacks.

End of story.

-Gumboot

[boloboffin]

Well, a bit more than that.

One of the motivations behind the 9/11 attacks was to drive a wedge between the House of Saud and the Americans, enough so that American troops were made to leave Saudi Arabia.

There are vague, nebulous suspicions that some people in Saudi Arabia would benefit from this shakeup of power and might thus have supported the attacks, but Hercule Poirot has not yet come up with any real evidence of such.

Now, end of story.

[MarkyX]

I don't understand why people even bring this up. If you watched the last will videos of the hijackers, one of them mentions Saudi Arabia as "America's dog" and even starts listing countries that they viewed as sinful infidels.

Doesn't sound like a group of people that want to help Saudi Arabia.

[gumboot]

I think the 9/11 Attacks had very little to do with the US being in Saudi Arabia. That might be what motivated Al Qaeda a decade earlier, but not in 2001. Don't forget the 9/11 attack was Khalid Sheikh Mohammed's idea, not Osama Bin Laden's. Mohammed is a Pakistani.

-Gumboot

[Texas]

I don't want to start another endless discussion - so I ask the debunkers:

What is the Saudi connection - if you researched this issue? And what are your conclusions ... case closed? If you had done your research you would have known this, The Saudi Royals banished Osama in the early 80's due to his trying to create a movement to overthrow them. Bin Laden headed up the project for refurbishing shrines in Mecca. He went from being a very weak believer to a convert to Wahhabi's while in Mecca. After the Saudi exiled him He went to Afghanistan to fight the Soviets for one reason only, the Soviets were Atheists. He was funded by several wealthy Saudis but not the government and certainly not the CIA. Osama worked independently from the Afghan resistance and had his own fighting force of several thousand Arabs that joined him. Here is a bit of his history if you care to start your own research:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3827/is_200110/ai_n8963074

[boloboffin]

1996: Osama bin Laden issues a fatwa entitled "Declaration of War against the Americans Occupying the Land of the Two Holy Places (http://www.pbs.org/newshour/terrorism/international/fatwa_1996.html)."

So that's five years before the 2001 attacks.

1998: Osama, along with other terrorist groups, issues another fatwa:

The ruling to kill the Americans and their allies -- civilians and military -- is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it, in order to liberate the al-Aqsa Mosque and the holy mosque [Mecca] from their grip, and in order for their armies to move out of all the lands of Islam, defeated and unable to threaten any Muslim. This is in accordance with the words of Almighty God, "and fight the pagans all together as they fight you all together," and "fight them until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in God."

Again, the liberation of Mecca is a primary reason for the holy war. And that is three years before the 2001 attacks.

2004: Osama releases a videotape concerning the American election (http://english.aljazeera.net/English/archive/archive?ArchiveId=7403). In it, he claims:

No, we fight because we are free men who don't sleep under oppression. We want to restore freedom to our nation, just as you lay waste to our nation. So shall we lay waste to yours.

That is three years after the 2001 attacks.

KSM had his reasons for coming up with the plan. Osama bin Laden had his reasons for supporting and financing KSM's plan.

One of Osama's motivations was to drive a wedge between the House of Saud and the Americans, enough so that American troops were made to leave Saudi Arabia.

[Undesired Walrus]

Don't forget the 9/11 attack was Khalid Sheikh Mohammed's idea, not Osama Bin Laden's.

-Gumboot

Gave him the cash though..

[Texas]

1996: Osama bin Laden issues a fatwa entitled "Declaration of War against the Americans Occupying the Land of the Two Holy Places (http://www.pbs.org/newshour/terrorism/international/fatwa_1996.html)."

So that's five years before the 2001 attacks.

1998: Osama, along with other terrorist groups, issues another fatwa:



Again, the liberation of Mecca is a primary reason for the holy war. And that is three years before the 2001 attacks.

2004: Osama releases a videotape concerning the American election (http://english.aljazeera.net/English/archive/archive?ArchiveId=7403). In it, he claims:



That is three years after the 2001 attacks.

KSM had his reasons for coming up with the plan. Osama bin Laden had his reasons for supporting and financing KSM's plan.

One of Osama's motivations was to drive a wedge between the House of Saud and the Americans, enough so that American troops were made to leave Saudi Arabia. The Saudi government is in a unique position in the Islamic world due to the two holiest sites in Islam being under their protection. Given that dynamic I am amazed that SA is as open to western commerce as it has been.

[T.A.M.]

The bigger question, is why does Oliver refer to us as "debunkers", but not himself...

Please Olie, tell me it isnt so, tell me you havent left us for the dark side...

TAM;)

[Pardalis]

Already discussed at length here:
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=85499

[Oliver]

Already discussed at length here:
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=85499


Yes, discussed but no new information - just arguing back and forth.
That's not helping me if no one is able to provide further informations, Goury. (Is it a problem for you if I mention your Forename?)

[Oliver]

The bigger question, is why does Oliver refer to us as "debunkers", but not himself...

Please Olie, tell me it isnt so, tell me you havent left us for the dark side...

TAM;)


I said "Debunkers" because the Truthers don't believe in Al Qaida - in their POV AQ is a bunch of US-Employees. So I hope for help concerning the Issue, especially from debunkers in here. My experiences are that they wont help if someone is too critical.

But I didn't follow the dark side yet, TAM. :D I like Sunshine and right now, the weather here in Germany is "dark" enough... :p

[Pardalis]

Yes, discussed but no new information - just arguing back and forth.

Yes, that's what discussion forums are all about.

Stop derailing your own threads.

[Oliver]

Yes, that's what discussion forums are all about.

Stop derailing your own threads.


Well, give it a try and stick to the topic then (instead derailing on your side):

1. What is the Saudi connection - if you researched this issue?
2. And what are your conclusions ... case closed?

[8den]

Well, give it a try and stick to the topic then (instead derailing on your side):

1. What is the Saudi connection - if you researched this issue?
2. And what are your conclusions ... case closed?

I see the issue as similar to the IRA and the Irish. While the IRA fought for irish unity, it did not mean that every Irish man supports this cause, and their actions.

[Pardalis]

Well, give it a try and stick to the topic then (instead derailing on your side):

1. What is the Saudi connection - if you researched this issue?
2. And what are your conclusions ... case closed?

Already discussed here:

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=85499

[Oliver]

If you had done your research you would have known this, The Saudi Royals banished Osama in the early 80's due to his trying to create a movement to overthrow them. Bin Laden headed up the project for refurbishing shrines in Mecca. He went from being a very weak believer to a convert to Wahhabi's while in Mecca. After the Saudi exiled him He went to Afghanistan to fight the Soviets for one reason only, the Soviets were Atheists. He was funded by several wealthy Saudis but not the government and certainly not the CIA. Osama worked independently from the Afghan resistance and had his own fighting force of several thousand Arabs that joined him. Here is a bit of his history if you care to start your own research:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3827/is_200110/ai_n8963074


I know that already and I also don't believe that CIA and OBL had direct connections - even if the CIA probably heard about him during the Soviet-invasion plus the CIA-Support for the Mujahedeen.

The main question is: What happened in Saudi Arabia in the last years before 9/11 and what in the aftermath. It's a very blurred issue because the US-Investigations don't reveal but cover-up these links to the Saudis (No matter if Gov- or private SA-investors). Nevertheless - the Saudis had an Interest to get rid of Saddam, too. You think they did nothing at all concerning Saddam all the time? :confused:

And if you don't think so - what do you know did they do concerning Saddam?

Here's what I think: The Saudis had a big interest in getting rid of Saddam. So what were their role in the current iraq war?

[Oliver]

Already discussed here:

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=85499


And your personal opinion about it? You're fast to avoid topics and post something derailing instead, Goury. :boggled:

[Pardalis]

I already gave my opinion here:

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=85499

You don't like it, live with it. You've been reported for flooding the board with useless threads.

[Oliver]

I already gave my opinion here:

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=85499

You don't like it, live with it. You've been reported for flooding the board with useless threads.


That's why I like you Pardalis. :) The discussions with you always end up in sulking on your part. It can be a pain in the ass from time to time, but in general it's a cute behavior. And I apologize if this offends you to tell you how I think about it. :boxedin:

Anyway: This sentence is why I started a thread on my own in here:

I don't want to start another endless discussion - so I ask the debunkers: ...

[negativ]

I sometimes wonder: If Lawrence Wright (http://www.amazon.com/Looming-Tower-Al-Qaeda-Road-11/dp/037541486X/ref=pd_bbs_2/102-5887407-8183316?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1182790024&sr=8-2) had made some Youtube videos and shouted through a megaphone instead of writing an exhaustively researched book (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/06/books/review/06filkins.html?ei=5089&en=0e30ba3235672b53&ex=1312516800&partner=rssyahoo&emc=rss&pagewanted=print) that actually involved going to various unfriendly places in the Middle East and interviewing shady people who had direct involvement with bin Laden, maybe he could have single-handedly killed the Truth Movement. Does anyone actually consume 9/11-related information not presented in Youtube form anymore?

As it is, the Troothers pester him too (http://www.texasmonthly.com/2007-07-01/talks.php), as he mentions briefly in this short interview, and one thing I find very uplifting about the Texas Monthly link is that the interviewer seems to have no idea about the "Truth Movement" and their specific claims.

[PhantomWolf]

I think any Saudi involvement in Al Qaeda was similar to the US involvement in the IRA, a number of individuals throughout the country helped to finace them by giving money without knowing exactly what that money would be used for. There is no obvious connections between Saudi Officials and Al Qaeda, in fact exactly the opposite. Saudi has been one of the main Arabic countries that have gone after Al Qaeda where ever they can find them.

As to Saudi wanting Saddam gone, this is possible, no one wants a dictator on their doorstep, especially one who has previously invaded two other neighbours. Still they had reasons for Saddam to remain there as well. Saddam and his forces are Sunni, as is Saudi, whereas the majority of muslems in Iraq are Shri, like Iran and Sryia. With the know conflict between these two, having the Saddam Sunni backed government would certainly be of more comfort to them than an Iran/Syria backed Shri one. Also there is the oil question. With Iraq under sanctions, Saudi had more customers and made more money. Now with Iraq coming back on stream, they have lost some of the world market to Iraq.

The morale of this is that nothing is black and white, and trying to force actions and behaviours based on preconceived ideas is doomed to failure.

[beachnut]

I don't want to start another endless discussion - so I ask the debunkers:

What is the Saudi connection - if you researched this issue? And what are your conclusions ... case closed?
The Saudis have nothing to do but become terrorist, the other jobs of interest, like flipping burgers is done by TCNs. OMG, is that PC?

As we grow up we can work at Baskin Robbins and get a wrist cramp as we serve 150 people in an hour, or a gas station where we strip the oil pan bolt and learn how to fix it, or work at Six Flags writing names on hats, or in the mail room of a giant insurance company, or clearing land, building bridges in the wild, making roads in the mountains, or working in a shop sweeping floors, wiring Switch Gear panels, and going to school with women! The Saudis do not get to work when they are teens, the good jobs are done by people from other countries! The only excitement is to do Jihad! Terrorist rUs.