Berlin Bans Cruise, Scoffs at Scientology! [Archive] - Page 2

dsmith

6th July 2007, 06:52 PM

fredcarr,
It's been asked in this thread but I don't think answered, unless it was referred to as confidential doctrine. What are your thoughts on Xenu? Is this still a popular belief of the church? Are you able to discuss this? If you haven't said so before what's your OT Level?

Macoy

6th July 2007, 07:18 PM

Point well taken.

Fred

Please don't be defensive, Fred. Surely there are no suppressives here.

Macoy

6th July 2007, 07:20 PM

Disconnection is what fascistic metermen do.

Oliver

7th July 2007, 03:07 AM

Hello Fred,

I reviewed your links in parts and I have some criticism concerning this information. One thing I'm interested in is the Story of Xenu, but none of the links mentioned it and the searches also showed no results about it.

The OCA-Test was pretty lingering and reminded me to a typical psychological test. Is this a standard test for new or interested people?

While the Triangle reminded me to a modern version of the Trinity in
the first place, after reading it's description, it much more describes discoveries of Neuro-linguistic programming. Also the churchs description to enhance the personal character, reminded me to NLP.

I really have a hard time to find something spiritual in Scientology.
And do you know where I can get information about the prices of the services and sessions you mentioned?

*Bump*

Lonewulf

8th July 2007, 12:06 AM

Oliver, if you're truly interested, let me provide a post with many links (just follow the hotlinks in the first paragraph for info):

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=86517

Oliver

8th July 2007, 03:26 PM

Oliver, if you're truly interested, let me provide a post with many links (just follow the hotlinks in the first paragraph for info):

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=86517

Quite frankly, Lonewulf: I'm merely interested to have the chance for a personal reply rather than studying quotes. So even if I'm reading the mentioned thread right now, right now I'm not in the mood to look into the issue. :blush:

Of course, Fred's reply may enflame my interest.

Ysidro

8th July 2007, 10:15 PM

So, where is Fred's thoughts on Xenu? I'd say he hasn't heard of him yet, but if Mr. Carr has been in since the Seventies it's likely he's made it that far at least.

So, what about it Fred? What are your thoughts on Xenu and the higher OT levels entered into court records as actual Scientology scripture? Do you believe in the Xenu myth? Do you accept the truth of a bad science fiction story?

Kilgore Trout

9th July 2007, 08:36 AM

Flo

9th July 2007, 08:42 AM

In all fairness, if Fred is OT III or greater, admitting the existence of Xenu might risk the lives of his fellow Scientologists that haven't attained that level of OT and might be reading. And if Fred isn't high enough of an OT, finding out about Xenu ahead of schedule might get himself killed.

Since the xenu nonsense has been published for everybody to see, I failed to notice low graded $cientologists dying en masse ...

Moochie

9th July 2007, 12:44 PM

Herzblut

10th July 2007, 03:23 PM

The OCA-Test was pretty lingering and reminded me to a typical psychological test. Is this a standard test for new or interested people?
Knowing about the manipulative, dishonest nature of this "test", I did do the test this way:

I invented a nearly perfect human being, that has nothing to do with me obviouly. :D Each question I answered not from the standpoint "what would Herzblut answer", but instead "what would a perfect, super-healthy, mentally superior being answer"? EVEN in this case, the "evaluation" showed massive problems this super-being had to resolve allegedly.

You CANNOT survive this test without being debunked as a mental sicko.

Try it! It's fun.

Herzblut

Oliver

11th July 2007, 03:17 AM

Knowing about the manipulative, dishonest nature of this "test", I did do the test this way:

I invented a nearly perfect human being, that has nothing to do with me obviouly. :D Each question I answered not from the standpoint "what would Herzblut answer", but instead "what would a perfect, super-healthy, mentally superior being answer"? EVEN in this case, the "evaluation" showed massive problems this super-being had to resolve allegedly.

You CANNOT survive this test without being debunked as a mental sicko.

Try it! It's fun.

Herzblut

The last time I tried the test, it was pretty annoying because it was like the "Neverending Story". But I will try it as a "Moral Angle" and in contrast as a "Psychological Wreck" the next time I have the nerves to torture myself again. :D

@Admins: I was wondering about the Subforum of this particular thread: What's so paranormal about this issue? Isn't it a pure social/political thingamajig? :confused:

fredcarr

12th July 2007, 10:50 AM

Oliver - You can find out about requested donations for different services at your nearest church.

I've mentioned before that I only discuss doctrine that has been published by the church.

As I know next to nothing about NLP I can't really comment upon your comparison. (I'll have to read up on the subject.)

The OCA is not only used for new people but is also one of the aids used to measure progress.

I really have a hard time to find something spiritual in Scientology.

Not sure how to respond to this. What do you mean by "spiritual?"

Fred

Macoy

13th July 2007, 04:59 AM

The OCA is not only used for new people but is also one of the aids used to measure progress.

Fred

Progress towards what?

Lonewulf

13th July 2007, 05:03 AM

Progress towards what?

Becoming a Clear.

Jekyll

13th July 2007, 06:20 AM

Becoming a Clear.

Has anyone read A Dog called Demolition by Robert Rankin?

Some guy manages to shake off the influence of the aliens controlling his thoughts, and goes out into the street to look at everyone lumbering along controlled by these aliens.

Then they all turn round to look back and start chanting "Kill the clear."

The coroner's notes on the case read suicide by dismemberment.

Flo

13th July 2007, 06:22 AM

Progress towards what?

being able to be told about the core doctrine without rolling on the floor laughing.

brodski

13th July 2007, 06:56 AM

Has anyone read A Dog called Demolition by Robert Rankin?

Some guy manages to shake off the influence of the aliens controlling his thoughts, and goes out into the street to look at everyone lumbering along controlled by these aliens.

Then they all turn round to look back and start chanting "Kill the clear."

The coroner's notes on the case read suicide by dismemberment.

I have a signed copy of that book. I love Rankin.

Big Les

13th July 2007, 09:46 AM

Well, don't we all. Oh, Rankin, sorry...

Macoy

13th July 2007, 01:21 PM

Becoming a Clear.

Is this official published "doctrine", or are we all liable to self combust?

Jekyll

13th July 2007, 01:42 PM

Is this official published "doctrine", or are we all liable to self combust?

It's all right, you'll be perfectly safe as long as you don't convert to scientology.

Jekyll

13th July 2007, 01:44 PM

I have a signed copy of that book. I love Rankin.

Wow. I'm now suffering from fan envy :P , I'll have to keep an eye out for his next book signing tour.

Lonewulf

13th July 2007, 06:44 PM

Is this official published "doctrine", or are we all liable to self combust?

Official doctrine, though the whole deal on body thetans and Xenu is left for OTs that pass the "Wall of Fire" (OT 3, I think).

See, Clear is the rank you get to when you have made all your body thetans happy. Everyone has thetans, and they're the cause of depression, anger, and all emotions that are considered "negative". There are various levels that thetans can be, measured by Downstats and Upstats.

You move yourself on into being an Upstat, through hard work and "training" in scientology courses, measured by "auditing" to see if you're all there mentally (though it's all a crock, really). The auditing is done with tin cans connected to a machine, called an e-meter. I am led to believe that the e-meter is actually a functional old-time "lie detector", made in the '50s, that was notoriously and incredibly unreliable. However, how a machine that uses frikkin' tin cans could have been a real device at one point or another, I have no idea.

Then you move into being a Clear. After that, you're purged of negative emotions. You then move on up the OT levels. After which, you pass the Wall of Fire at OT 3, where everything's explained to you. The only OT 9 is Hubbard, I think, who supposedly didn't have any body thetan whatsoever, which was why he was so mentally clear and was a "prophet".

ThatSoundAgain

13th July 2007, 07:48 PM

I am led to believe that the e-meter is actually a functional old-time "lie detector", made in the '50s, that was notoriously and incredibly unreliable. However, how a machine that uses frikkin' tin cans could have been a real device at one point or another, I have no idea.

If I understand correctly, the e-meter(TM) is simply a weirdly configured ohmmeter, an otherwise very handy device for measuring electrical resistance. The cans, or cylinders, are used as electrodes for measuring a person's electrical resistance from hand to hand. This design can't be very reliable, especially when run dry (with no gel or the like for optimal skin contact) like this. In fact, I expect this to be deliberate so that the needle gets real wobbly and there's lots of movement for the auditor to interpret. Just like tea leaves.

You can read about it here (http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Secrets/E-Meter/). With the information at that site, including auditing training manuals, and a little exercise with an ohmmeter, one should be able to manipulate the reading quite a lot. Who'll volunteer to go and demonstrate OT7 straight from the street?

BTW, the e-meter looks like it could be fun to circuit-bend (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circuit_bending) and make into some kind of theremin. Knowing CoS, though, the price is probably a bit out of my range for a DIY instrument.

Georg

14th July 2007, 07:42 AM

Fred, would you please provide evidence for the allegation that children have been thrown out of public schools in Germany because of their parents being Scientologists?

EeneyMinnieMoe, would you please come back and tell the excited audience why you rightfully attack Sylvia Browne, but sort of defend and admire Tom Cruise, part of the PR machine of that inhuman, criminal organisation called Scientology, that brought more grief to people than “The Claws” ™ ever will be able to?
Would you also explain, why a state should employ people opposed to its constitution?

Georg

bump

Moochie

14th July 2007, 09:45 AM

My childhood neighbor (who was my best friend) and I used to talk to each other via two cans attached to each other with some string, strung from window to window between our houses. The bastard always did know when I was fibbing.

M.

Oliver

15th July 2007, 02:51 AM

*Bump* for DogTown (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=2769104&postcount=110)

Moochie

16th July 2007, 08:37 AM

For anyone who hasn't seen it, the chilling, ineffably sad 48 Hours documentary about the murder of Elli Perkins by her schizophrenic son, Jeremy, who stabbed his mother 77 times. The Perkinses, long-time $cientologists, refused to seek the much needed medical treatment that might have prevented this tragedy.

http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles/history/2007/03march.htm#10lrh

M.

Macoy

22nd July 2007, 02:59 PM

It seems that the lack of responses from scientologists on this forum would

indicate three things:

1) ron liked amphetamines

2) Head office is in a spin

3) scientologists are deluded

jimtron

22nd July 2007, 03:39 PM

Macoy

22nd July 2007, 04:59 PM

however, the film seems to be going ahead; all i can see is cruise grinning.

Lonewulf

22nd July 2007, 05:04 PM

It seems that the lack of responses from scientologists on this forum would

indicate three things:

1) ron liked amphetamines

2) Head office is in a spin

3) scientologists are deluded

These things weren't indicated already? :confused:

Kilgore Trout

22nd July 2007, 05:19 PM

At the grocery store, I just saw Kirstie Alley on the cover of a tabloid, looking quite overweight. Isn't she an OT? If you're OT, doesn't that mean you have control over MEST (matter, energy, space, and time)? If so, shouldn't losing weight be a relatively easy proposition? Just askin'...

OT VI. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirstie_Alley)

In October 2005, the Church of Scientology again announced that Alley had completed another course, the PTS/SP course. In 2006, Alley is reported to have said that she was not able to apply the Scientology techniques that helped her to kick her cocaine habit to her problem with food addiction and weight, and that ultimately she turned to Jenny Craig.

The PTS/SP course is (http://www.clambake.org/fairgame-e.html) "How to Confront and Shatter Suppression". It cost $1100 in 2006 (http://www.scientology-lies.com/scientology/services/pts-sp-course.html) and deals with how to detect and handle a Suppressive Person.

What L. Ron can't cure, I guess Jenny Craig can. Though if that photo was recent, perhaps Jenny Craig actually can't. Maybe Jenny is an SP?

jimtron

22nd July 2007, 05:45 PM

OT VI. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirstie_Alley)

The PTS/SP course is (http://www.clambake.org/fairgame-e.html) "How to Confront and Shatter Suppression". It cost $1100 in 2006 (http://www.scientology-lies.com/scientology/services/pts-sp-course.html) and deals with how to detect and handle a Suppressive Person.

What L. Ron can't cure, I guess Jenny Craig can. Though if that photo was recent, perhaps Jenny Craig actually can't. Maybe Jenny is an SP?

Ahh, the Wikipedia link above had this tidbit:In 2006, Alley is reported to have said that she was not able to apply the Scientology techniques that helped her to kick her cocaine habit to her problem with food addiction and weight, and that ultimately she turned to Jenny Craig (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jenny_Craig%2C_Inc).[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirstie_Alley#_note-5)

Also, Alley was divorced and had to pay her ex a 6 million dollar settlement. Another thing OT super powers don't seem good for: avoiding divorce (Cruise has had a couple too).

I wonder what exactly OTs can do with their super powers?

Kilgore Trout

22nd July 2007, 05:54 PM

I was curious just when OTs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operating_Thetan) got these superpowers, and near as I can tell, not until OT VIII. "This is the first actual OT level and brings about a resurgence of power and native abilities for the being himself."

Seems like a bit of a ripoff to me.. I thought all this time at OT I you at least got to do something cool. Though, having said that, the godlike powers at Cleared Theta Clear (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MEST_%28Scientology%29#The_Theta_universe_vs._the_ MEST_universe) do sound pretty sweet.

Macoy

22nd July 2007, 06:18 PM

So it's ot 7 when one can discuss all this stuff with animals who obviously have not progressed to ot 8.

i'd hate to look like an ot3 to a chimpanzee.

arthwollipot

22nd July 2007, 09:14 PM

jimtron

22nd July 2007, 11:10 PM

arthwollipot

22nd July 2007, 11:27 PM

No, the lasers are an implant that I got recently. They're pretty handy, but they don't let me create my own universe. I mostly use them for pest extermination.

Kilgore Trout

23rd July 2007, 09:00 AM

Wow. I'd love to be able to create my own universe. How much does it cost to get that far? How many people have already reached Cleared Theta Clear and created their own universes? Are they controlling us now? Are they controlling me now?

Help me mummy, I'm frightened.

Conservatively, about $277,000 if everything goes perfectly. (http://www.xenu.net/archive/prices.html) Probably closer to $365,000 and possibly more. As for creating universes, I stumbled on this, which really ticked me off. Here I was getting excited about that universe thing, but then they pull the bait and switch:

This reached a peak when you hit OT VIII - here's the catch: OT IX and X will not be released until all organizations wordwide have reached the size of "Old Saint Hill" (Saint Hill organization, England, which did very well during the time LRH was there in the 1960s.) You are expected to get very active in the field of dissemination to try to make the release of these next OT levels a reality.

I guess it's no wonder why Tom Cruise is such an active spokesperson for Scientology. The man may just simply want to create universes, and can't until they get more recruits. Can you blame him? (Actually, looking it up, it seems he's either OT VII or nearly so, but maybe he's looking to the future..)

arthwollipot

23rd July 2007, 08:23 PM

The mind boggles...

Kilgore Trout

19th September 2007, 02:36 PM

Sadly, the German Defense Ministry has reconsidered. (http://www.contactmusic.com/news.nsf/article/german%20defense%20ministry%20does%20about-face%20over%20cruise_1044047)
The German government has done an apparent about-face and will allow Tom Cruise to film key scenes of his movie Valkyrie at a location that had previously been placed off-limits to him.

Macoy

19th September 2007, 02:57 PM

Sadly, the German Defense Ministry has reconsidered. (http://www.contactmusic.com/news.nsf/article/german%20defense%20ministry%20does%20about-face%20over%20cruise_1044047)

I wonder why.

$s? Getting one back on the Belgians? Von Stauffenberg's son has changed his mind?

Floyt

19th September 2007, 09:31 PM

I guess that means they just didn't trust Cruise & Co. to do a good job of faithfully representing the episode. Actually, I'd assume that if I came as a representative of Secular Constitution-Lovin' Filming Co. and presented a script that turned the Stauffenberg plot into a slapstick comedy, they would bar me from filming as well, and to no-one's surprise.
Having OK'd the script, they do a turnabout. So this is either commendable up-front-ness or being a bunch of fairweather weasels. Hmm.