Sylvia Browne and Pareidolia in the Womb

[RSLancastr]

On a Montel "Sylvia" episode some time ago, a woman came on who said that she had a cousin who had died (suicide was suspected).

The cousin was evidently known to some as a bear or teddy bear (as guys who are stout tend to be).

sometime after her cousin's death, the woman went in for a sonogram to check on her developing pregnancy.

'Lo and behold, on the sonogram was an image which, with a little imagination, is in the shape of a teddy bear.

She asked Browne if this was a sign from her deceased cousin, and whether her son, who was born almost nine months to the day after the cousin's death, was the reincarnation of the cousin.

Browne, as always, said that it was indeed a sign, and also said that yes, the son was the cousin reincarnated.

Here is a link to a YouTube video of the reading:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJkDGV41AD0

A still image of the sonogram (with notations) can be found here:

http://img147.exs.cx/img147/865/ghost6ag.jpg

(From this page: http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/lofiversion/index.php/t29937.html)

Does anyone here have professional experience reading sonograms?

Assuming for the moment that the sonogram image wasn't Photoshopped, and we are talking about pareidolia here, what could the object be, which in the image resembles a teddy bear?

Note that the "bear" has two dark spots in the "head," which, depending on how you look at it, are either the eyes or one eye and the nose. What are these spots? Note the vague horizontal "mouth" as well.

I did a little looking around the web at sonograms, and found another which has something vaguely like the "bear" in it:

http://www.symzer.com/hey/images/jun06/sonogram2.jpg

(From this page: http://www.symzer.com/hey/index.php?paged=2)

This second image has an object with two similar dark spots, although they are aligned vertically rather than horizontally. If you rotate the image clockwise 90 degrees, there is also the same vague line beneath those dark spots which would be a mouth.

I know that even if someone here can say exactly what the object is, those who choose to believe Browne would say "Yes, but the dead cousin made sure that object was aligned just right to look like a teddy bear!"

Still, this has potential as an SSB article, particularly if I can find images of other sonograms with similar objects in them.

By the way, I showed a few people a frame from the YouTube video, showing the sonogram, and asked them what they saw, without mentioning that it was supposed to be a teddy bear. About half saw a teddy bear, and the others were split between seeing a monkey and seeing nothing.

All input appreciated.

[Miss Anthrope]

This doesn't look like any sonogram I have ever seen. However, I see nothing that looks like a teddy bear at all!

Katana might be a good lead to have a look?

[grmcdorman]

Ultrasound images tend to require expert interpretation. The image does look like a typical US image to me, but I can't say if the "features" they are seeing are common.

Note that if you do a search for ultrasound images (http://www.google.com/search?q=ultrasound+images) you get about 1.3 million hits, including a lot of sample images. Ultrasound is by far the more common term; sonogram images only give you 238,000 hits.

If they did a 3D reconstruction and saw that "teddy" in that, I'd be more forgiving. However, as is, it's just pareidolia in untrained people looking at US images.

ETA: 3D reconstruction requires specially acquired images to do that; the image (or images) they have won't be suitable for that.

- Grant McDorman, who works on medical imaging software.

[skeptifem]

those images remind me of those old psychologist ink tests to me, there are so many weird shapes you can intepret it to look like a lot of different things if you tried hard enough.

Still, this has potential as an SSB article, particularly if I can find images of other sonograms with similar objects in them.


i think if you use google image search and some imagination you can find what you are looking for. its sort of like cloud gazing. heh.

[Zep]

Try presenting it upside-down for interpretation. That can remove any basic attempts at pareidolia.

[-Fran-]

Isn't it suppose to be woomb ;)

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

The texture looks like that of a teddy bear but I'd say the face was that of a monkey.

I'm offended at Sylvia telling this woman the reincarnation crap. One, that's alot of baggage on a toddler if its parents think its a reincarnation, enspecially of someone they knew. Not healthy for the kid at all.

Two, she's implying the man who committed suicide is being punished for it. I imagine this would add alot of distress to the family.

She'd be kinder if she just told them he was on the Other Side.

[Zep]

So if the child is born looking like this, Sylvia spake sooth!

http://www.theairstore.co.uk/data/images/air%20product%20photo%20t-shirt%20on%20teddy.jpg
http://www.theairstore.co.uk/data/images/air%20product%20photo%20t-shirt%20on%20teddy.jpg

[-Fran-]

The texture looks like that of a teddy bear but I'd say the face was that of a monkey.

I'm offended at Sylvia telling this woman the reincarnation crap. One, that's alot of baggage on a toddler if its parents think its a reincarnation, enspecially of someone they knew. Not healthy for the kid at all.

Two, she's implying the man who committed suicide is being punished for it. I imagine this would add alot of distress to the family.

She'd be kinder if she just told them he was on the Other Side.

I agree. It's totally irresponsible to put such a burden on a kid. But when did Sylvia ever act in a responsible way? And, yes, how nice to say your cousin is being punished by having you as a mom :rolleyes: which would be the consequence, I guess, if you are to believe the reincarnation stuff.

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

Absolutely. Think of the damage this might have done to the woman and her child. Or the cousin's family, if they were to believe the child was really him.

If she still believed that at the end of that day, that might have been disasterous.

If she had thought it over and later come to the conclusion it was all untrue, that still might have been very painful. To have been deceived like that and to feel like losing the cousin all over again.:mad:

I'd like to get the perspective of a Hindu on this. Or that of any other person that belongs to a religion that holds reincarnation as a tenet.

How do people in those traditions deal with the idea they could be raising their own mother, father, brother or sister? Is this really something people believe? Does it cause any sort of burden on children? What about the idea that someone you had known was being endlessly reincarnated because of a suicide?

[LostAngeles]

On a Montel "Sylvia" episode some time ago, a woman came on who said that she had a cousin who had died (suicide was suspected).

The cousin was evidently known to some as a bear or teddy bear (as guys who are stout tend to be).

sometime after her cousin's death, the woman went in for a sonogram to check on her developing pregnancy.

'Lo and behold, on the sonogram was an image which, with a little imagination, is in the shape of a teddy bear.

She asked Browne if this was a sign from her deceased cousin, and whether her son, who was born almost nine months to the day after the cousin's death, was the reincarnation of the cousin.

Browne, as always, said that it was indeed a sign, and also said that yes, the son was the cousin reincarnated.

Here is a link to a YouTube video of the reading:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJkDGV41AD0

A still image of the sonogram (with notations) can be found here:

http://img147.exs.cx/img147/865/ghost6ag.jpg

(From this page: http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/lofiversion/index.php/t29937.html)

Does anyone here have professional experience reading sonograms?

Assuming for the moment that the sonogram image wasn't Photoshopped, and we are talking about pareidolia here, what could the object be, which in the image resembles a teddy bear?

Note that the "bear" has two dark spots in the "head," which, depending on how you look at it, are either the eyes or one eye and the nose. What are these spots? Note the vague horizontal "mouth" as well.

I did a little looking around the web at sonograms, and found another which has something vaguely like the "bear" in it:

http://www.symzer.com/hey/images/jun06/sonogram2.jpg

(From this page: http://www.symzer.com/hey/index.php?paged=2)

This second image has an object with two similar dark spots, although they are aligned vertically rather than horizontally. If you rotate the image clockwise 90 degrees, there is also the same vague line beneath those dark spots which would be a mouth.

I know that even if someone here can say exactly what the object is, those who choose to believe Browne would say "Yes, but the dead cousin made sure that object was aligned just right to look like a teddy bear!"

Still, this has potential as an SSB article, particularly if I can find images of other sonograms with similar objects in them.

By the way, I showed a few people a frame from the YouTube video, showing the sonogram, and asked them what they saw, without mentioning that it was supposed to be a teddy bear. About half saw a teddy bear, and the others were split between seeing a monkey and seeing nothing.

All input appreciated.

I can never see anything in sonograms (except the one of the dolphin Jas posted a while back) and I can't be sure it isn't all just wide spread pareidolia.

...I can see the Magic Eye pictures though, yes...

No, seriously, I really can't see a damn thing in sonograms without being told what's what. In fact, when I saw my MRIs, the only thing I really recognized was my eyeballs (which look creepy) so I think I may just be medical imaging blind? I mean, anything like a spine or something, I'll recgonize, but anything more subtle, like say, a heart, I probably wouldn't know it was a heart without serious context clues.

[LostAngeles]

I see a profile in the negative space to the right of the teddy bear. A dark spirit perhaps? I suspect that whomever this dark spirit is full of bile and possibly has a problem with alcohol because of the image of a liver superimposed over where the brain would be. Notice that the dark spirit has horns, so the child may be affected by not only alcoholism but dabbling in Satanism and black magic. But if you look carefully, you'll also see an angel of the image of the liver and the hand of God to the left of the image and underneath the teddy bear, so the child will go through some difficult and dark times, but this child has been blessed by God and will come through them much stronger than before.

Where's my $750?

[SomeGuy]

I see a profile in the negative space to the right of the teddy bear. A dark spirit perhaps? I suspect that whomever this dark spirit is full of bile and possibly has a problem with alcohol because of the image of a liver superimposed over where the brain would be. Notice that the dark spirit has horns, so the child may be affected by not only alcoholism but dabbling in Satanism and black magic. But if you look carefully, you'll also see an angel of the image of the liver and the hand of God to the left of the image and underneath the teddy bear, so the child will go through some difficult and dark times, but this child has been blessed by God and will come through them much stronger than before.

Where's my $750?

You've hit the motherlode!

A whole new branch of woo!

Share the wealth please...

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

I agree. It's totally irresponsible to put such a burden on a kid. But when did Sylvia ever act in a responsible way? And, yes, how nice to say your cousin is being punished by having you as a mom :rolleyes: which would be the consequence, I guess, if you are to believe the reincarnation stuff.

Fran, I don't know if you know (maybe you saw the thread about it lying around somewhere), but I once had the very dubious pleasure of seeing Sylvia Browne in action in person at a taping of Montel.

The messages she invented from people living and dead upset me very much. For instance, she told an elderly woman who had never known her biological parents that their names were "Warren" and "Marie" and made up a crapload of crap about them.

[-Fran-]

Fran, I don't know if you know (maybe you saw the thread about it lying around somewhere), but I once had the very dubious pleasure of seeing Sylvia Browne in action in person at a taping of Montel.

The messages she invented from people living and dead upset me very much. For instance, she told an elderly woman who had never known her biological parents that their names were "Warren" and "Marie" and made up a crapload of crap about them.

Yeah, I read that whole thread while I was still a lurker here and had not signed up yet, so I didn't reply, but I read it all, yes. Very good descriptions of your experiences on her show EMM. It IS incredible how she can sleep at nights knowing she has filled vulnerable and grieving people with all her BS rambling. :mad:

[Niobe]

She asked Browne if this was a sign from her deceased cousin, and whether her son, who was born almost nine months to the day after the cousin's death, was the reincarnation of the cousin.

Browne, as always, said that it was indeed a sign, and also said that yes, the son was the cousin reincarnated.

Basically Browne's gotta love her job.

q: "Do you think my husband wanted me to find my long lost necklace when he came to me in a dream to tell me to move on and I took away his urn and the chain was underneath after all these years? "
SB: *drags cig* "...yes"
q: "Sylvia you're so gifted and I don't know how anyone could doubt you"
SB: "That'll be $700"


Edit: For the sonogram, that looks very much photoshopped, the kid's head on the right is clear with different white hues indicating bone density, the teddy on the left looks like a teddy TOO obviously.
Or perhaps she didn't totally pull up a gaudy Teddy featuring rhinestone studded sweater when she was getting scanned or something.

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

I know. Those were people with some very serious problems. Almost all of them had been through major traumas.

People who's children had committed suicide, people who had just lost a parent, at least one person with a mental illness, people who I gather had recently become unemployed, a few people that it sounded like they were suffering from depression, at least two people looking for biological parents, victims of accidents, terrible. They didn't need a psychic, they needed a good therapist and medical attention.

Considering what most of the audience was there for, I almost don't mind psychics Bs-ing people of sound mind who haven't been through any major crisis.

[Katana]

In my humble (of course) opinion, that's a crap ultrasound image. There is nothing useful in it. When performing ultrasounds, all measurements are taken using certain anatomic reference points that must be in the image to make them consistent. This allows the doc to assess the child's growth over time (comparing it to itself), and to compare its measurements to population norms.

This image shows me nothing of value:

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_980746817258d1ea3.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=6567)

I tried searching for images that might be comparable, but none had the perfect angle probably because no one would have the need to show such a thing online unless they were celebrating the "teddy bear" that someone found instead of caring how their kid actually was. If my suspicion is correct, and the "bear" is the baby's chest or abdomen, these might help:

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_980746816b830c4aa.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=6562)http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_980746816c785de24.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=6563)http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_980746816c8b108b4.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=6564)

For reference, on the right of each frame, you can see the baby's face in profile (face is up), and you can see the forearm reaching up to the forehead where there is a hand visible.

Here's a cropped shot:

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/9807468171b6d4a6b.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=6566)

This is a shot of the abdomen in perfect cross-section:

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_980746816f8c226c8.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=6565)


I see a pissed-off moon with a big zit on its left cheek? Anyone else? :p

What I'm getting at is, if the chest or abdomen were captured in slightly off or oblique angles compared to those shown in these images, it is within the realm of possibility that you could see something like what Sylvia's fan did.

So what they saw in the image was less the result of a supernatural force than it was the product of poor sonographic skills...in my humble opinion, of course.

;)

[FramerDave]

'Lo and behold, on the sonogram was an image which, with a little imagination, is in the shape of a teddy bear.

She asked Browne if this was a sign from her deceased cousin, and whether her son, who was born almost nine months to the day after the cousin's death, was the reincarnation of the cousin.

Browne, as always, said that it was indeed a sign, and also said that yes, the son was the cousin reincarnated.

No offense to anyone here, but DUH! Does anyone really think that after being handed that opportunity on a silver platter, Sylvia would say no?

"With a little imagination..." But of course.

[-Fran-]

No offense to anyone here, but DUH! Does anyone really think that after being handed that opportunity on a silver platter, Sylvia would say no?


That's not the surpising part, of course she will. The amazing part is that her believers count it as a hit!

ETA
I see the Teddybear. Cool, Pareidolia is fun. Why anyone would want to link it to something paranormal going on though, is beoynd me!

[Miss Anthrope]

Terrific info, Katana!!!!

[RSLancastr]

Katana, thanks for weighing in with your knoledgeable (if humble) opinion. :)

In my humble (of course) opinion, that's a crap ultrasound image. There is nothing useful in it.I thought that might be the case. Perhaps the technician though it was funny and printed it out for the mother-to-be as a cutesy keepsake.


What I'm getting at is, if the chest or abdomen were captured in slightly off or oblique angles compared to those shown in these images, it is within the realm of possibility that you could see something like what Sylvia's fan did.

If the "bear head" was indeed a cross-section of the abdomen, I would imagine that the "ears" would be cross-sections of the arms?

But that would certainly explain why you don't see many ultrasounds like this one - they would never be captured by a competent technician, other than (perhaps) as a joke/cutesy thing.

Thanks to everyone else for their comments, too.

[Katana]

Terrific info, Katana!!!!


As always, my cheerleader.

Thanks, Miss Anthrope!

:)

Katana, thanks for weighing in with your knoledgeable (if humble) opinion. :)

I thought that might be the case. Perhaps the technician though it was funny and printed it out for the mother-to-be as a cutesy keepsake.




If the "bear head" was indeed a cross-section of the abdomen, I would imagine that the "ears" would be cross-sections of the arms?

But that would certainly explain why you don't see many ultrasounds like this one - they would never be captured by a competent technician, other than (perhaps) as a joke/cutesy thing.

Thanks to everyone else for their comments, too.

:D

No prob, RSL!

Glad I was at least of some help.

Keep up the good fight.

:eusa_clap: