Are my beliefs really mine?

[VanillaCone]

I'm new to this forum, so forgive me if I'm broaching an issue that has been well-covered elsewhere on these boards.

I hardly know anyone who is an atheist, and yet all three of my siblings and I are die-hard nonbelievers. We were raised by our father, who is himself an unapologetic and somewhat arrogant atheist. So does that mean we were "indoctrinated" into atheism? Or is atheism the default belief for someone who has not been indoctrinated into religion? The typical dinner conversation when I was growing up included the Big Bang, evolutionary theory, history and the like. We did not sit around talking about how delusional religious people are, but it was made very clear to us that our father did not have much respect for believers.

So if anyone out there has done any research or knows anything about how developmental psychology plays into one's religious beliefs (or lack thereof), I'd love to hear their thoughts.

[Freethinker]

I can't add anything to the idea of developmental issues, but I'm interested in seeing any responses here. After I started disbelieving, the idea of a god like the Christian god seemed far-fetched and ridiculous to me. I can't imagine someone who was raised to adolescence without indoctrination in a religion and who had been exposed to science could ever buy into the absurdities and become religious. Ignorance of the universe is the void which religion was created to fill. As knowledge fills that void, there is simply no room for religion.

[crystalfiverx]

I can't really add anything about developmental psychology either... but I grew up in a situation that wasn't like a lot of my peers. While I did have a pop-up book of the nativity, religion was otherwise ignored most of the time.

An elderly couple from across the street would invite my family to church every other month, and was always politely declined. I went to Pentecostal Sunday School with a friend once, at age six -- came home and told my dad I needed to be baptized before Jesus came back so I wouldn't go to hell (this was the first I'd heard of it!). He muttered something about filling my head with nonsense. My mom took my little sister and me to a Lutheran church for about a month and a half when I was twelve. She never really said why.

I grew up believing in god, but not in any structured way. I never had a clue what my parents believed. We had a Bible, and also a few books on the woo-woo, but nobody ever talked about anything. Science was never disparaged. I still have no idea what my father thinks about religious matters -- my mom I recently found out (because I asked) considers herself a Christian, but doesn't feel comfortable at any church because she feels like people are using and perverting the good parts of the message, and while she'd like to believe in the risen Christ she has a hard time with it, and definitely doesn't believe in a literal Bible otherwise, either.

To make a long story short, my parents didn't really try to indoctrinate me, although there were things around I could pick up on.

I ended up growing up with a fairly strong interest in the paranormal, and joining a friend's non-denominational Christian church when I was sixteen, with a full-dunk baptism. A few months later I realized that a lot of people in the church, if not the whole church, were fundamentalist young-earthers. I asked my friend, half-joking, if he thought all the fossils were put in the earth by god as a test of his faith. He replied that he did think that, sometimes.

I quickly left that church, bowing out halfway through distributing come-to-jesus videos door-to-door. I'd already been uncomfortable with doing THAT, and with some of the answers I'd gotten to some of my smartass questions about inconsistencies in the Bible, answers that showed me I'd already read the damn thing more thoroughly than some of the people at my new church...

My interest in the paranormal, unfortunately, lingered -- I wouldn't ditch that until I found "Flim-Flam" in the woo-woo section of a second-hand bookstore. The veil was lifted -- thanks Mr. Randi!

I have no doubt that some could be raised without religious indoctrination and later find a strong faith if they felt the need -- but I think for a lot that once you get past the magic years of childhood and late adolescence, unless the magical beliefs have been drummed into your skull -- it's hard to make them stick.

p.s. my fiance is an atheist too -- but he went to catholic school for ten years. reverse indoctrination?

[VanillaCone]

p.s. my fiance is an atheist too -- but he went to catholic school for ten years. reverse indoctrination?

Thanks for sharing your experiences. The only other atheists I know are (two) people whose parents overemphasized religion to the point of being oppressive, and so I guess they ultimately rejected it.

Again, this leads me to suspect that childhood experiences play a big role in our adult beliefs. I'm curious to know, Crystal, whether you think that your bad experience with the nondenominational church actually "turned" you into an atheist. If the people and activities had been more appealing, do you think you would have remained a believer, or would it merely have delayed your ultimate arrival at atheism? I can't answer questions like these for myself, because I never attended church as a child.

[Damien Evans]

p.s. my fiance is an atheist too -- but he went to catholic school for ten years. reverse indoctrination?

Could be a coincidence, but i just finished school here, and i was at a catholic school. The number of Atheists, Agnostics or people who would discard or modify their beliefs if science showed them to be wrong seemed to reise exponentially through the year levels

As for me, well, I'm not sure, but wasn't there some philosopher who said that you may as well believe in God, because if he exists you likely get into heaven/paradise/wherever, but if God doesn't exist you lose nothing. I have the feeling that the argument was called (guys name) bet, but i can't remember the name, anyway, enough rambling from me

[andyandy]

Two good examples of what we believe - or what we think we believe - is influenced by external [or internal] influences of which we're unaware....

Haidt details a surgeon Joe Bogen who in the 1960s actually severed the corpus callosum [dividing bundle of nerves between left and right] to see if he could prevent/reduce seizures in patients' brains -

and remarkably it did significantly reduce the intensity of seizures - but there were also significant side-effects [as you might imagine if you disconnected parts of your brain!]

the left side is specialised for language processing and analytical skills whilst the right is better at processing spatial patterns [like faces] - and they perfomed experiments on these patients to test how these two area were affected.

first patients stared at a spot - and then images were flashed quickly to the left or to the right. Right sided images get sent through the left hemisphere and left sided images through the right hemisphere. So when asked "what did you see?" after an image had been flashed to the right, the patients could answer fine [the image had been processed by their language bit] but when asked what they had seen when an image had been flashed to the left, they answered "nothing."

But when asked to point with their left hand [controled by the left hemisphere] to what image they had seen from a selection they were able to correctly identify the image they claimed not to have seen! With further testing, when pressed to explain why they had pointed to something they had earlier said they couldn't see, they would make up plausible justificational stories -seemingly unaware they were lying

and from NS


Adults, too, can be persuaded to confabulate, as Timothy Wilson of the University of Virginia in Charlottesville and his colleague Richard Nisbett have shown. They laid out a display of four identical items of clothing and asked people to pick which they thought was the best quality. It is known that people tend to subconsciously prefer the rightmost object in a sequence if given no other choice criteria, and sure enough about four out of five participants did favour the garment on the right. Yet when asked why they made the choice they did, nobody gave position as a reason. It was always about the fineness of the weave, richer colour or superior texture. This suggests that while we may make our decisions subconsciously, we rationalise them in our consciousness, and the way we do so may be pure fiction, or confabulation.

We may believe that what we believe is formed from our considered opinion - yet often our conscious brain simply invents a reason to explain what we are predisposed to think. We label it a "belief" because the illusion of free will is imortant to maintain :)

[VanillaCone]

As for me, well, I'm not sure, but wasn't there some philosopher who said that you may as well believe in God, because if he exists you likely get into heaven/paradise/wherever, but if God doesn't exist you lose nothing. I have the feeling that the argument was called (guys name) bet, but i can't remember the name, anyway, enough rambling from me

I think that if I had the option of believing in God I probably would. I know that statement will probably anger some people on these boards who feel that religion is a poison, but it certainly would make getting along in society a lot easier. Since I refuse to lie to anyone about it, I have lost friends, professional relationships and even girlfriends because of my atheism.

But the problem, if it is in fact a problem, is that I simply cannot believe. It just makes no sense to me. I'd be lying to myself if I said that I would just give the God thing a try. I can't get past the fact that it seems like a made-up fantasy. And also it's so APPEALING that I can think of a good reason (other than the actual existence of a God) why so many people would accept the story as truth. I see that as another barrier to believing in it myself, the fact that people would be likely to make up such a story whether it were true or not.

ETA - Just to clarify, when I say it's appealing, I'm not talking about the "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" God. I'm talking about the God that forgives all your trespasses and reunites you with your family after you die. Also known as Happy Fun God.

[Miss Anthrope]

I think that if I had the option of believing in God I probably would. I know that statement will probably anger some people on these boards who feel that religion is a poison, but it certainly would make getting along in society a lot easier. Since I refuse to lie to anyone about it, I have lost friends, professional relationships and even girlfriends because of my atheism.

But the problem, if it is in fact a problem, is that I simply cannot believe. It just makes no sense to me. I'd be lying to myself if I said that I would just give the God thing a try. I can't get past the fact that it seems like a made-up fantasy. And also it's so APPEALING that I can think of a good reason (other than the actual existence of a God) why so many people would accept the story as truth. I see that as another barrier to believing in it myself, the fact that people would be likely to make up such a story whether it were true or not.

You will not find that this is uncommon among people who post here at all. Many of us can find empathy and a connection to what you are saying I'm sure.

I used to say "I have faith envy" for reasons similar to yours. There was a time where I think it would be easier going through life believing in a religion. I tried very sincerely to be a Christian for years. I just couldn't, though. I was trying to fill a void that the paranormal had previously filled, but in the end, I realized I couldn't believe in imaginary things any longer. I've found ways to find comfort in the joy of life since then.

It is difficult when people decide to "blow you off" because you lack belief. That has happened in my life, and I've seen many a post describing similar things.

Many of us are "hostile" to the idea of religion here because religion is hostile to teaching science to children, hostile to personal freedom, hostile to atheists in general, and because many want to legislate their own brand of religion into law. Yes, many people here think the faithful are deluding themselves, I among them. But this is not a rash judgment, it's a conclusion I came to throughout my own search for truth and reason.

Welcome to the forums. I look forward to seeing your thoughtful input on other topics as well.

MA

[Jon.]

Two good examples of what we believe - or what we think we believe - is influenced by external [or internal] influences of which we're unaware....

Haidt details a surgeon Joe Bogen who in the 1960s actually severed the corpus callosum [dividing bundle of nerves between left and right] to see if he could prevent/reduce seizures in patients' brains -

and remarkably it did significantly reduce the intensity of seizures - but there were also significant side-effects [as you might imagine if you disconnected parts of your brain!]

the left side is specialised for language processing and analytical skills whilst the right is better at processing spatial patterns [like faces] - and they perfomed experiments on these patients to test how these two area were affected.

first patients stared at a spot - and then images were flashed quickly to the left or to the right. Right sided images get sent through the left hemisphere and left sided images through the right hemisphere. So when asked "what did you see?" after an image had been flashed to the right, the patients could answer fine [the image had been processed by their language bit] but when asked what they had seen when an image had been flashed to the left, they answered "nothing."

But when asked to point with their left hand [controled by the left hemisphere] to what image they had seen from a selection they were able to correctly identify the image they claimed not to have seen! With further testing, when pressed to explain why they had pointed to something they had earlier said they couldn't see, they would make up plausible justificational stories -seemingly unaware they were lying


It doesn't change the validity of your illustrations, but surely this is the wrong way around? The left hemisphere controls the right side of the body and vice-versa.

[Jon.]

I'm new to this forum, so forgive me if I'm broaching an issue that has been well-covered elsewhere on these boards.

I hardly know anyone who is an atheist, and yet all three of my siblings and I are die-hard nonbelievers. We were raised by our father, who is himself an unapologetic and somewhat arrogant atheist. So does that mean we were "indoctrinated" into atheism? Or is atheism the default belief for someone who has not been indoctrinated into religion? The typical dinner conversation when I was growing up included the Big Bang, evolutionary theory, history and the like. We did not sit around talking about how delusional religious people are, but it was made very clear to us that our father did not have much respect for believers.

So if anyone out there has done any research or knows anything about how developmental psychology plays into one's religious beliefs (or lack thereof), I'd love to hear their thoughts.

Try reading some Daniel Dennett. I'd start with Breaking the Spell, which is explicitly about religion, and then move on into Consciousness Explained, which is heavier and more of a philosophical, psychological and neurological examination of the phenomenon of consciousness. He has some other books that may shed light on the issue as well, but I haven't read those so I can't say one way or the other.

ETA: Freud comes up with a theory, too, in Civilization and its Discontents, but much of what Freud said has been discredited, so I'd take it with a grain of salt.

[Freethinker]

I think that if I had the option of believing in God I probably would. I know that statement will probably anger some people on these boards who feel that religion is a poison, but it certainly would make getting along in society a lot easier. Since I refuse to lie to anyone about it, I have lost friends, professional relationships and even girlfriends because of my atheism.

But the problem, if it is in fact a problem, is that I simply cannot believe. It just makes no sense to me. I'd be lying to myself if I said that I would just give the God thing a try. I can't get past the fact that it seems like a made-up fantasy. And also it's so APPEALING that I can think of a good reason (other than the actual existence of a God) why so many people would accept the story as truth. I see that as another barrier to believing in it myself, the fact that people would be likely to make up such a story whether it were true or not.



That's really close to home for me. Wow!, wouldn't it be great if we had a magic friend in the sky who watched over us and kept bad things from happening? Who wouldn't want to believe that? It would be like perpetual childhood when you thought Mom and Dad would protect you from everything that could hurt you.

But pretending things are different from how they really are is just a coping mechanism to deal with a mean and scary world. Much like children of divorced parents believe that their wife-beating father will reconcile with their mother, even after he goes to jail and she remarries. No matter what evil happens to them, Christians know that god loves them. He can give them cancer, kill their loved ones, bring financial hardship and they keep the faith. As soon as he gives them one good thing they are overjoyed and singing his praises. If the same bastard who gave you the cancer cured it after you endured disfuguring surgery, debilitating chemotherapy and radiation, how the heck is that a blessing?

[crystalfiverx]

Again, this leads me to suspect that childhood experiences play a big role in our adult beliefs. I'm curious to know, Crystal, whether you think that your bad experience with the nondenominational church actually "turned" you into an atheist. If the people and activities had been more appealing, do you think you would have remained a believer, or would it merely have delayed your ultimate arrival at atheism? I can't answer questions like these for myself, because I never attended church as a child.

I don't really think so -- it wasn't a negative experience so much as I just realized that we weren't all on the same page philosophically. I didn't believe the things they believed, and if they were believing things I didn't (like a 6000 year old earth, literal flood story, etc.) then how sure could I be about the Jesus thing? It started me questioning, but I think it would have happened if I'd been at any church, this one or another, Unitarian or Wiccan...

It took me quite a few years after that to arrive at atheism... I think once I started getting more into science and evidence-based belief, I edged that way...

[crystalfiverx]

As for me, well, I'm not sure, but wasn't there some philosopher who said that you may as well believe in God, because if he exists you likely get into heaven/paradise/wherever, but if God doesn't exist you lose nothing. I have the feeling that the argument was called (guys name) bet, but i can't remember the name, anyway, enough rambling from me


Pascal's wager, I think. I always thought that was the lamest of the arguments...

[seayakin]

I don't think it is quite the same but it reminds me a bit of some research I heard about a year ago where people form their political opinions based on emotion and then rationalize it after the case. I think religion is often the same (although not always). If someone knows of the research I refer to I would be interested in the citation. I have done a little looking and haven't found it yet.

The other issue relates to developmental psychology. It seems to me that I learned in a psych course many years ago that it has been theorized that ones personality does not fully develop until 22-25. If this is true, much can change in the ages 18-25 when a parents influence my be significantly reduced (unless its my 33 year old neighbor still living with her parents ;) )

[andyandy]

It doesn't change the validity of your illustrations, but surely this is the wrong way around? The left hemisphere controls the right side of the body and vice-versa.

yep - sorry, it gets a bit confusing - it should read the "...left hand [controlled by the right hemisphere]"

[VanillaCone]

You will not find that this is uncommon among people who post here at all. Many of us can find empathy and a connection to what you are saying I'm sure.

I used to say "I have faith envy" for reasons similar to yours. There was a time where I think it would be easier going through life believing in a religion. I tried very sincerely to be a Christian for years. I just couldn't, though. I was trying to fill a void that the paranormal had previously filled, but in the end, I realized I couldn't believe in imaginary things any longer. I've found ways to find comfort in the joy of life since then.

It is difficult when people decide to "blow you off" because you lack belief. That has happened in my life, and I've seen many a post describing similar things.

Many of us are "hostile" to the idea of religion here because religion is hostile to teaching science to children, hostile to personal freedom, hostile to atheists in general, and because many want to legislate their own brand of religion into law. Yes, many people here think the faithful are deluding themselves, I among them. But this is not a rash judgment, it's a conclusion I came to throughout my own search for truth and reason.

Welcome to the forums. I look forward to seeing your thoughtful input on other topics as well.

MA

Thank you for those words of empathy and support.

It’s good to know that I’m not the only one who has experienced “Jesus envy” or whatever you want to call it. What’s funny, though, is that my reasons have less to do with a need for meaning and purpose, and more to do with a dislike of being discriminated against. I can understand the plight of those I call “polite atheists,” the people who pretend to believe or simply don’t reveal their true beliefs in certain situations, but I try to resist playing the polite atheist because I think that sort of deference to the religious has perpetuated anti-atheist stereotypes and discrimination.

There seems to be a mainstream attitude that atheists should just go along with the group when it comes to things like declaring allegiance to “One nation under God,” saying “Amen” after a public invocation or swearing an oath on the Bible. I succumbed to Polite Atheist Syndrome once in a MAJOR way – when I got married to my now-ex-wife, who was not particularly religious but wanted to be married in the church she attended as a child for the sake of her parents. We met with the pastor weeks before the ceremony was to take place, and I told him honestly that I did not believe in God and was only planning to go through with it for her sake. He was a very practical and genuinely nice person who understood my predicament and did not object. Still, during the ceremony I felt like an impostor and a fraud, and that many people in the room knew it.

But what can we do? This is the society we live in. If we refuse to compromise, we are called rude, disrespectful, angry and even militant. If asked directly I will not lie, but what I should do is tell everyone who notices I am nice and decent that I’m an atheist, and that my morality is derived from a desire to improve society, and not some Pavlovian punishment/reward impulse. That might prompt some to reevaluate their prejudices, right? But the nasty catch is that such comments are also, invariably, perceived as an insult and an attack on their beliefs. People tend to push back when they feel threatened in such a way, so does freely and openly declaring one’s atheism really help matters?

[Miss Anthrope]

I've been the polite atheist, and now I'm simply "out of the closet". I don't go around attacking people, but if they want to argue, they do get an earful. I do not just "go along" with the religious inclusion in things like the pledge. To me it's dishonest, and there is no hope for the future of reason if people do not draw their respective lines in the sand.

[VanillaCone]

I've been the polite atheist, and now I'm simply "out of the closet". I don't go around attacking people, but if they want to argue, they do get an earful. I do not just "go along" with the religious inclusion in things like the pledge. To me it's dishonest, and there is no hope for the future of reason if people do not draw their respective lines in the sand.

I certainly do find myself moving in that direction. I am fully aware of the pointlessness of arguing atheism versus theism with a believer, but what I really want is to make these people aware that atheists are just as "moral" as theists.

[VanillaCone]

Try reading some Daniel Dennett. I'd start with Breaking the Spell, which is explicitly about religion, and then move on into Consciousness Explained, which is heavier and more of a philosophical, psychological and neurological examination of the phenomenon of consciousness. He has some other books that may shed light on the issue as well, but I haven't read those so I can't say one way or the other.

ETA: Freud comes up with a theory, too, in Civilization and its Discontents, but much of what Freud said has been discredited, so I'd take it with a grain of salt.

Thank you for these suggestions. Hopefully my right-wing city's library still carries these books.

[Freethinker]

... but what I really want is to make these people aware that atheists are just as "moral" as theists.

I disagree. I find atheists to be MORE moral than theists.

[vexed]

I can't add anything to the idea of developmental issues, but I'm interested in seeing any responses here. After I started disbelieving, the idea of a god like the Christian god seemed far-fetched and ridiculous to me. I can't imagine someone who was raised to adolescence without indoctrination in a religion and who had been exposed to science could ever buy into the absurdities and become religious. Ignorance of the universe is the void which religion was created to fill. As knowledge fills that void, there is simply no room for religion.

Well stated.

[VanillaCone]

I disagree. I find atheists to be MORE moral than theists.

I tend to agree with you, especially when the respective motivations for doing the right thing are taken into consideration. However, telling a religious person, "I am more moral than you," is not the way to begin a meaningful dialogue.

[Freethinker]

I tend to agree with you, especially when the respective motivations for doing the right thing are taken into consideration. However, telling a religious person, "I am more moral than you," is not the way to begin a meaningful dialogue.

True, but the reason is that can't even conceive that it is possible for atheists to be moral. To me this is a huge black mark against religion. Its adherents can't even conceive of a person doing what's right without the reward/punishment combination of heaven and hell. They apparently think that the only thing that keeps people doing good things is the threat of hell or the promise of heaven. Since one tends to believe that others are like themselves, what does this say about them?

[VanillaCone]

True, but the reason is that can't even conceive that it is possible for atheists to be moral. To me this is a huge black mark against religion. Its adherents can't even conceive of a person doing what's right without the reward/punishment combination of heaven and hell. They apparently think that the only thing that keeps people doing good things is the threat of hell or the promise of heaven. Since one tends to believe that others are like themselves, what does this say about them?

Your argument seems logical to me, although I honestly think the theistic notion that atheists are immoral because they don't fear divine punishment is more of a convenient rhetorical device than anything else. I don't think too many modern theists actually fear divine punishment, either.

[Freethinker]

I don't think too many modern theists actually fear divine punishment, either.

That's probably because most modern theists don't actually believe or even understand what they pretend to believe as was discussed here: http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=51218

[WaterD]

Thanks for sharing your experiences. The only other atheists I know are (two) people whose parents overemphasized religion to the point of being oppressive, and so I guess they ultimately rejected it.

Again, this leads me to suspect that childhood experiences play a big role in our adult beliefs. I'm curious to know, Crystal, whether you think that your bad experience with the nondenominational church actually "turned" you into an atheist. If the people and activities had been more appealing, do you think you would have remained a believer, or would it merely have delayed your ultimate arrival at atheism? I can't answer questions like these for myself, because I never attended church as a child.

Leads you to SUSPECT that childhood experiences play a big role in our adult beliefs?
Childhood experiences mark what we are, our past is our present, there is no thing as our OWN thoughts because we made them ourseleves.
Yes we are how we were builded. So drop the the suspicious and take it as a fact.

[VanillaCone]

Leads you to SUSPECT that childhood experiences play a big role in our adult beliefs?
Childhood experiences mark what we are, our past is our present, there is no thing as our OWN thoughts because we made them ourseleves.
Yes we are how we were builded. So drop the the suspicious and take it as a fact.

Hmm... I'm curious to know how the above statement could be proven. Might be difficult since psychology is a somewhat soft and fuzzy science. My first reaction is that it's more of a kneejerk, absolutist response.

But if WaterD is correct, than we atheists should all get off our high horses and shut up about religion, because if the coin had flipped another way for us we would all be fundamentalist Christians. Isn't that a logical conclusion if what he says is correct?

[Darth Rotor]

Are my beliefs really mine?
No, they are mine. Sorry, I left them lying around, how careless of me, and you seem to have stumbled across them. Would you kindly return them?

There's beer in it for you. :)

DR

[VanillaCone]

No, they are mine. Sorry, I left them lying around, how careless of me, and you seem to have stumbled across them. Would you kindly return them?

There's beer in it for you. :)

DR

Well you never returned my hedge clippers, so screw you!

[crystalfiverx]

But if WaterD is correct, than we atheists should all get off our high horses and shut up about religion, because if the coin had flipped another way for us we would all be fundamentalist Christians. Isn't that a logical conclusion if what he says is correct?

Well, that's why the indoctrination of youth can be so sickening... it's taking advantage of someone without any discernment.