Most plausible 9/11 conspiracy theory

[MaGZ]

What is the most plausible conspiracy theory relating to 9/11?

[Horatius]

That all the CTs were created by Alex Jones et al. to make money.

[D'rok]

That a relatively small group of Islamic extremists implemented a plan to use commercial airliners as weapons to attack America.

[Billdave2]

That a relatively small group of Islamic extremists implemented a plan to use commercial airliners as weapons to attack America.

Bingo!

[negativ]

On 10 September 1992, a black man named Stanley Decker parked in a parking garage and boarded a plane at John F. Kennedy International Airport. At exactly the same time hundreds of miles away, Senator Ted Kennedy planed a board in his garage, using a planing tool made by Stanley and a vice made by Black & Decker. Yet both men claim never to have met the other. As for the rest of it, well, I'm not going to do your research for you.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

* The Tooth Fairy is real
* Santa Claus is real
* The Easter Bunny is real
* The Great Pumpkin is real

Which is the most plausible?

[Dr Adequate]

(1) The OCT.

(2) LIHOP.

(3) Evil neocons wanted us to think that Muslim terrorists crashed planes into buildings, so they arranged for planes to be crashed into buildings and framed some Muslims for it. The following were not involved: the New York Fire Department; Larry Silverstein; NIST; controlled demolition; thermite; thermate; missiles disguised as planes; "pods"; "squibs"; Directed Energy Weapons; "silent nukes"; and Keebler elves.

[MaGZ]

That a relatively small group of Islamic extremists implemented a plan to use commercial airliners as weapons to attack America.

Agreed.
Is there a close second?
The shoot down of flight 93?
Israeli prior knowledge of the 9/11 attacks?
The attempted assassination of President Bush by AQ agents on the morning of 9/11?

[MaGZ]

(1) The OCT.

(2) LIHOP.

(3) Evil neocons wanted us to think that Muslim terrorists crashed planes into buildings, so they arranged for planes to be crashed into buildings and framed some Muslims for it. The following were not involved: the New York Fire Department; Larry Silverstein; NIST; controlled demolition; thermite; thermate; missiles disguised as planes; "pods"; "squibs"; Directed Energy Weapons; "silent nukes"; and Keebler elves.

Perhaps ‘Let It Happen On Purpose’ (LIHOP) is the most believable 9/11 CT the American public is willing to believe.

[rwguinn]

* The Tooth Fairy is real
* Santa Claus is real
* The Easter Bunny is real
* The Great Pumpkin is real

Which is the most plausible?

Why would anybody take kidds teeth and leave money. It ain'thappening.
Never seen caribou fly in harness.
Never saw a bunny lay an egg
I have seen a Very Large pumpkin rise from a pumpkin patch on Halloween. It was a very sincere pumpkin patch, and the onlookers were very sincere in wishing for the great pumpkin to appear.
Does the fact that it was assisted by 1/2 stick of dynamite count against it?

[D'rok]

Agreed.
Is there a close second?
The shoot down of flight 93?
Israeli prior knowledge of the 9/11 attacks?
The attempted assassination of President Bush by AQ agents on the morning of 9/11?

There is no close second. IMO, the only "alternate" CT that has any plausibility whatosever is LIHOP. Nevertheless, I don't think it can ever be proved. There is nothing in LIHOP that cannot be more plausibly explained by simple incompetence. And the Bush administration has admirably demonstrated its incompetence at almost every opportunity.

Sorry, but aside from objective evidence, plausibility is the CTist's biggest hurdle and it's nigh on insurmountable.

[HeyLeroy]

(snip)
The attempted assassination of President Bush by AQ agents on the morning of 9/11?

Huh?

[SpitfireIX]

Huh?


I didn't get this at first, either--I thought it might have had something to do with the "pet goat" controversy. Upon second thought, however, I think that MaGZ may be referring to the excuse given for Bush's failure to fly directly back to Washington, D.C. from Florida, which was the fear that a hijacked plane might have been used to attempt to crash into Air Force One. Possibly MaGZ believes that this could be some story concocted after the fact as a face-saving gesture, thus possibly qualifying it as a conspiracy.

[fezzic]

I thought that somewhere someone had posted (or did I just read it somewhere on the web) that some guys, arab-looking, went to the White House claiming they were to do an interview with Bush and were turned away by the Secret Service. MaGZ is probably referring to that.

[peteweaver]

That there is a conspiracy to sell propaganda dvd's about it to make money and sell tshirts.

[Billdave2]

That someone doctored a page from a American Airlines repair manual to try and prove that airphones had been removed before 9/11:)

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Agreed.
Is there a close second?

No, there are no close seconds.

Israeli prior knowledge of the 9/11 attacks?

Wow, jumping on the j00z again. Color me shocked.[/sarcasm]

[Monza]

Perhaps ‘Let It Happen On Purpose’ (LIHOP) is the most believable 9/11 CT the American public is willing to believe.

Sometimes I have have a hard time keeping up with all the acronyms. This may in part be due to the fact that everytime I see "LIHOP" I crave pancakes.

[Swing Dangler]

What is the most plausible conspiracy theory relating to 9/11?

LIHOP, and that is primarily based upon DCI, Tenet's comments and answers to questions on Larry King Live and the lack of a response by the Administration.

[jhunter1163]

* The Tooth Fairy is real
* Santa Claus is real
* The Easter Bunny is real
* The Great Pumpkin is real

Which is the most plausible?

Santa Claus (St. Nicholas) actually existed. But he's been dead for a very long time. I give his story the most credence.

The other three options are on a par with every 9/11 conspiracy theory in terms of plausibility.

[MaGZ]

Huh?

The attempted assassination of President Bush by AQ agents on the morning of 9/11.

http://boards.historychannel.com/thread.jspa?threadID=300021608&tstart=0&mod=1095553336132

[Free Thinkr]

LIHOP, for sure. It's pretty much impossible to prove or disprove. I believe, however, that further consideration proves even this to be highly unlikely (unless you're of the mind of Alex Jones, and believe any government employee is Satan-spawn).

[jaydeehess]

Is there a close second?
The shoot down of flight 93?
Israeli prior knowledge of the 9/11 attacks?
The attempted assassination of President Bush by AQ agents on the morning of 9/11?


No,
No,
and no.

LIHOP perhaps. There is an outside chance that someone or a small group of someones put it all together prior to 9/11 and simply let it go through to further an agenda for a larger military and/or a greater US presence in the Middle East. It very well could be that not all of the plans of the terrorists were known and not fully appreciated just how much damage and lost lives would result.

However, given that GWB and so very many of his administration have proven themselves to be incompetant in so many other areas that the simplest explanation is that the Whitehouse utterly dropped the ball leading up to 9/11, was incompetant in the immediate response to the attacks and has utterly failed in the later military response to the attacks.

The decision to lessen the operations on one front, in Afghanistan, while starting a war on another front, in Iraq, is a classic way to lose a war.

The decision to rely on the welcoming of 'liberators' is a classic way to ensure that you haven't the boots on the ground to secure a country after the present regime is ousted.

Katrina-
Gonzales-
North Korea-
Iran-

Do you realize that the present Secretary of State did not know which country did the largest amount of trade with the USA until a former Canadian Prime minister told her? (China exports more to the USA than Canada but Canada is second or third AND Canada imports more FROM the USA than anyone else (which would you consider the most importanat?)for a combined total that is the largest -- at least last time I checked)

If they are feigning incompetance in order to draw suspicion away from the 9/11 LIHOP plan then they are doing a bang up job of it.

[Elizabeth I]

Santa Claus (St. Nicholas) actually existed. But he's been dead for a very long time. I give his story the most credence.


Besides, he leaves me presents every year.

[PhantomWolf]

The attempted assassination of President Bush by AQ agents on the morning of 9/11?

While if the story is true as reported there is certainly a possiblity that this one is correct, the fact that they "reporters" were never identified or any weapons located on them really only places it in the realms of speculation. AQ has never admited that part of their plan never happened, and as such all we have is a coincedence that might or might not be relevant. I'd suggest that if the facts are as stated, then there is certainly enough to be suspicious of it having been a possible attempt, but then this is with hindsight. At the time there would have been no such reason for suspision and the agents acted correctly by simply turning them away.

[MIKILLINI]

The Pentagon wasn't hit by a frozen fish? Dick Cheney was in the bunker?

[Loss Leader]

Agreed.


What the?

Who are you and what did you do with Herr Von MaGZ?

[PhantomWolf]

What the?

Who are you and what did you do with Herr Von MaGZ?

MaGZ has always been in the Islamic Terrorists did it with Planes camp, he just stands all by himself over to the right in the "Mossad knew it was happening and didn't tell anyone", and "some unknowns fired a few missiles off about the place at the same time to cause extra damage", section as well.

[Corsair 115]

Do you realize that the present Secretary of State did not know which country did the largest amount of trade with the USA until a former Canadian Prime minister told her? (China exports more to the USA than Canada but Canada is second or third AND Canada imports more FROM the USA than anyone else (which would you consider the most importanat?) for a combined total that is the largest -- at least last time I checked). In 2006, Canada was still #1 in terms of imports into the U.S., ahead of China.

The official figures from the U.S. Census Bureau (http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/statistics/highlights/top/top0612.html) :

Imports into the U.S. from Canada in 2006: $303.4 billion (#1, 16.4%)
Imports into the U.S. from China in 2006: $287.8 billion (#2, 15.5%)

Exports from the U.S. to Canada in 2006: $230.6 billion (#1, 22.2%)
Exports from the U.S. to China in 2006: $55.2 billion (#4, 5.3%)

The province of Ontario alone took in $135 billion worth of U.S. exports in 2006. If ranked as a separate entity, it would place #2 (13%), on the list, just ahead of Mexico (which took in $134.2 billion).

For the first four months of 2007 (January through April), Canada is still #1 in terms of U.S. imports and exports:

Imports into the U.S. from Canada: $101.0 billion (#1, 16.6%)
Imports into the U.S. from China: $95.6 billion (#2, 15.8%)

Exports from the U.S. to Canada: $78.3 billion (#1, 21.6%)
Exports from the U.S. to China: $19.3 billion (#4, 5.3%)


For a country of just 33 million people, we do pretty good at sending good to and receving goods from the United States, don't we? :) And our exports to the U.S. are holding up in spite of the Canadian dollar hitting thirty year highs against the U.S. dollar.

[SpitfireIX]

While if the story is true as reported there is certainly a possiblity that this one is correct, the fact that they "reporters" were never identified or any weapons located on them really only places it in the realms of speculation. AQ has never admited that part of their plan never happened, and as such all we have is a coincedence that might or might not be relevant. I'd suggest that if the facts are as stated, then there is certainly enough to be suspicious of it having been a possible attempt, but then this is with hindsight. At the time there would have been no such reason for suspision and the agents acted correctly by simply turning them away.


I imagine that bin Laden and his henchmen are smart enough to realize that a bogus news crew is extremely unlikely to be able to get anywhere near an American President. It also strikes me as improbable that Al Qaeda operatives would make threats against the President right before they were going to attempt to assassinate him. Further, there are hundreds of people on the Secret Service "watch list" of those considered serious threats to the President, so the concerned citizen's report was likely a coincidence. Finally, if this "hit team" was in the United States in 2001, where are they now? Presumably they didn't just give up and go home. This entire story strikes me as nothing more than a bizarre coincidence.

[SpitfireIX]

Who are you and what did you do with Herr Von MaGZ?


Your attempt to Germanicize MaGZ's name smacks of equating being German with being a Nazi. This is nothing but an ethnic slur. Kindly refrain from any more such slurs in the future.

[LashL]

In 2006, Canada was still #1 in terms of imports into the U.S., ahead of China.

The official figures from the U.S. Census Bureau (http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/statistics/highlights/top/top0612.html) :

Imports into the U.S. from Canada in 2006: $303.4 billion (#1, 16.4%)
Imports into the U.S. from China in 2006: $287.8 billion (#2, 15.5%)

Exports from the U.S. to Canada in 2006: $230.6 billion (#1, 22.2%)
Exports from the U.S. to China in 2006: $55.2 billion (#4, 5.3%)

The province of Ontario alone took in $135 billion worth of U.S. exports in 2006. If ranked as a separate entity, it would place #2 (13%), on the list, just ahead of Mexico (which took in $134.2 billion).

For the first four months of 2007 (January through April), Canada is still #1 in terms of U.S. imports and exports:

Imports into the U.S. from Canada: $101.0 billion (#1, 16.6%)
Imports into the U.S. from China: $95.6 billion (#2, 15.8%)

Exports from the U.S. to Canada: $78.3 billion (#1, 21.6%)
Exports from the U.S. to China: $19.3 billion (#4, 5.3%)


For a country of just 33 million people, we do pretty good at sending good to and receving goods from the United States, don't we? :) And our exports to the U.S. are holding up in spite of the Canadian dollar hitting thirty year highs against the U.S. dollar.

Nice work, Corsair.

By the way, every time I see your user name, I am reminded of a sweatshirt I used to have from my aviation days, featuring a particular aircraft and the line, "She ain't no lady, she's a 580."

(The aircraft in question was actually a Convair 580, which has nothing to do with Corsair so far as I know, but even knowing that, I still think of it when I see your user name - funny how that works, ;) )

[LashL]

Your attempt to Germanicize MaGZ's name smacks of equating being German with being a Nazi. This is nothing but an ethnic slur. Kindly refrain from any more such slurs in the future.

I do not think that Loss Leader was doing anything of the sort, Spitfire.

MaGZ is a self-professed "White Nationalist" and he is, in fact, a Holocaust denier and a rabid anti-semite. I am sure that Loss Leader can and will speak for himself, but I took his post not to equate being German to being a Nazi, but rather to refer to MaGZ specifically, and for good reason.

[Corsair 115]

By the way, every time I see your user name, I am reminded of a sweatshirt I used to have from my aviation days, featuring a particular aircraft and the line, "She ain't no lady, she's a 580."

(The aircraft in question was actually a Convair 580, which has nothing to do with Corsair so far as I know, but even knowing that, I still think of it when I see your user name - funny how that works, ;) )As long as the association is a positive one, I'm pleased. :)

How were you involved in aviation, if you don't mind me asking?

[gumboot]

I imagine that bin Laden and his henchmen are smart enough to realize that a bogus news crew is extremely unlikely to be able to get anywhere near an American President. It also strikes me as improbable that Al Qaeda operatives would make threats against the President right before they were going to attempt to assassinate him. Further, there are hundreds of people on the Secret Service "watch list" of those considered serious threats to the President, so the concerned citizen's report was likely a coincidence. Finally, if this "hit team" was in the United States in 2001, where are they now? Presumably they didn't just give up and go home. This entire story strikes me as nothing more than a bizarre coincidence.



I think the significance is that Al Qaeda allegedly assassinated the leader of the Northern Alliance in Afghanistan in precisely the same manner, only days before the 9/11 attacks.

The notion of assassinating the leader of the Northern Alliance, assassinating George Bush, and carrying out the attacks all at once certainly carries the complex co-ordinated nature of Al Qaeda. But as you and others have said, without some hard evidence it's really nothing more than speculation.

I would certainly give the story plausibility at the speculation level - that is I consider it certainly quite possible.

Others would be that elements of the USA intelligence knew the attack was going to happen and let it happen, or that the US government somehow got Al Qaeda to carry out the attacks.

The reason I name these ones is not that I believe them, but that, while there's no evidence indicating any of these things happened, there's also no substantial evidence indicating they didn't. Hence they have a plausibility factor.

On contrast, if you look at a UA93 shoot down, for example, there's substantial hard evidence indicating this did not happen.

-Gumboot

[LashL]

As long as the association is a positive one, I'm pleased. :)

How were you involved in aviation, if you don't mind me asking?

'Tis a positive association indeed :)

My involvement in aviation was somewhat off the beaten track, so to speak, but the details are better left to PM. However, just so that it's clear to others on the public board, I am not and have never been a pilot, flight engineer, ground engineer, or aircraft mechanic.

[Foolmewunz]

'Tis a positive association indeed :)

My involvement in aviation was somewhat off the beaten track, so to speak, but the details are better left to PM. However, just so that it's clear to others on the public board, I am not and have never been a pilot, flight engineer, ground engineer, or aircraft mechanic.

Oooh, then according to their stringent admissions standards you can become member emeritus of both Pilots for Truth and Architechts & Engineers for Truth!

[DarkMagician]

The 9/11 conspiracies are all a government conspiracy, a la "The Mystery of the Urinal Deuce".

[Loss Leader]

Your attempt to Germanicize MaGZ's name smacks of equating being German with being a Nazi. This is nothing but an ethnic slur. Kindly refrain from any more such slurs in the future.


Actually, it would be a nationalistic slur. Being German isn't an ethnicity except, of course, to Nazis.

[Belz...]

Perhaps ‘Let It Happen On Purpose’ (LIHOP) is the most believable 9/11 CT the American public is willing to believe.

Why ? When all else fails, go for the most credible lie ?

[The Doc]

The funniest thing is how the conspiracy theorists find all their theories to be plausible, despite the fact that half of them contradict the other half.

For example, the "They aren't buying MIHOP, let's hit them with the LIHOP" approach. Dylan Avery himself does it. Maybe one day he will realize that the government can't be both responsible for the attacks, and criminally negligent.

[MIKILLINI]

Why ? When all else fails, go for the most credible lie ?

Or, in the Ct world, this would be the most "propitious" scenario used to make an attempt at a new investigation.

[MaGZ]

While if the story is true as reported there is certainly a possiblity that this one is correct, the fact that they "reporters" were never identified or any weapons located on them really only places it in the realms of speculation. AQ has never admited that part of their plan never happened, and as such all we have is a coincedence that might or might not be relevant. I'd suggest that if the facts are as stated, then there is certainly enough to be suspicious of it having been a possible attempt, but then this is with hindsight. At the time there would have been no such reason for suspision and the agents acted correctly by simply turning them away.

Of course AQ may have admitted to the attempered assassination of President Bush under interrogations. KSM could have told of the attempt; he confirmed that Flight 93's target was the US Congress. Perhaps the ‘reporters’ were captured and tried under special military tribunals.
All speculation.

[PhantomWolf]

Well considering that KSM was behind the 9/11 attacks and admitted to a long laundry list of offences (interestingly enough most of them were actually known about and either he or AQ were suspected for it anyway) I'm sure that had this been part of it, it'd have come out with the rest. He confessed to plots to kill President Clinton (http://edition.cnn.com/US/9808/25/bin.laden.02/index.html), Former President Carter*, Pakistani President Musarraf (http://archives.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiapcf/south/09/19/pakistan.arrests.plot/) and Pope John Paul 2nd (http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/11/11/1036308581808.html), why not one for Bush on 9/11?

*Many CTs seem to assume that this was a reference to the 1979 assassination attempt by Raymond lee Havery and thus a "whistleblow" on the list. However Former President Carter spend time in the Philippines with Habitat for Humanity during the 1990's, including a major Work Project in 1999, and both the known attempts/plans (Clinton [1994] and Pope John Paul [1995 & 1999]) were to be conducted in the Philippines during the the same time period. Thus, the Carter Plan is far more likely to have been around a similar time (1999) than to have been the 1979 attempt. It should also be noted that the Bojinka (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bojinka_Plot) plot was also run out of the Philippines in 1995.

[Elizabeth I]

MaGZ has always been in the Islamic Terrorists did it with Planes camp, he just stands all by himself over to the right in the "Mossad knew it was happening and didn't tell anyone", and "some unknowns fired a few missiles off about the place at the same time to cause extra damage", section as well.

I thought his theory was that Mossad agents disguised as Arabs did it?

[Brainache]

I thought his theory was that Mossad agents disguised as Arabs did it?

I think that was A-Train, but I'm not sure. It's not easy to tell the difference with Nazis.

[Civilized Worm]

LIHOP, and that is primarily based upon DCI, Tenet's comments and answers to questions on Larry King Live and the lack of a response by the Administration.


So you've abandoned your basement bomb theory?

[Undesired Walrus]

The funniest thing is how the conspiracy theorists find all their theories to be plausible, despite the fact that half of them contradict the other half.

For example, the "They aren't buying MIHOP, let's hit them with the LIHOP" approach. Dylan Avery himself does it. Maybe one day he will realize that the government can't be both responsible for the attacks, and criminally negligent.

It seems to define Avery's character huh? "Well, If we dont get this really exciting story with bombs etc, at least we can get them on something".

[firecoins]

Considering that a plane hit the Pentagon and the media was reporting a bomb went off at the State Department, was it really ridiculous for the Secret Service to assume that the President was a target? There tens of thousdands of flights in the air and no knew how many exactly were hijacked. No one knew if 93 was going to be the last flight to crash. There plenty of rumors suspecting more planes. Even a a medivac helicopter was mistaken for a hijacked flight.

[SpitfireIX]

. . . MaGZ is a self-professed "White Nationalist" and he is, in fact, a Holocaust denier and a rabid anti-semite.


Yes. I've already had a couple of run-ins with him over these issues. :brk: This goes to the heart of my point.

I am sure that Loss Leader can and will speak for himself, but I took his post not to equate being German to being a Nazi, but rather to refer to MaGZ specifically, and for good reason.


I'm afraid I don't follow your reasoning here. Loss Leader referred to MaGZ as "Herr Von MaGZ" in an obvious attempt at a mocking Germanization of MaGZ's nick, presumably because of MaGZ's aforementioned ideology. Referring to MaGZ as "Sturmbannführer MaGZ" or "Hitlerjunge MaGZ," (SS and Hitler Youth ranks, respectively) would clearly have connected MaGZ to the Nazis. However, Loss Leader's use connected MaGZ to all German speakers. I suspect that Loss Leader's reasoning was something like this:

MaGZ has a hate-filled, racist ideology. The Nazis had a hate-filled, racist ideology. The Nazis had German-sounding names. Therefore, I will mock MaGZ by making his name sound German.

Possibly you took this to be Loss Leader's implication. However, the following implied reasoning also works:

MaGZ has a hate-filled, racist ideology. Most Germans have a hate-filled, racist ideology. Therefore, I will mock MaGZ by making his name sound German.

So I still contend that, intentional or not, Loss Leader's post qualifies as an ethnic slur. If you, Loss Leader, or anyone else disagrees, feel free to attempt to persuade me. I certainly have to consider the possibility that I'm reading too much into this, though frankly I seriously doubt that I am.

[jaydeehess]

Considering that a plane hit the Pentagon and the media was reporting a bomb went off at the State Department, was it really ridiculous for the Secret Service to assume that the President was a target? There tens of thousdands of flights in the air and no knew how many exactly were hijacked. No one knew if 93 was going to be the last flight to crash. There plenty of rumors suspecting more planes. Even a a medivac helicopter was mistaken for a hijacked flight.


This goes to the CT stance that GWB should have been rushed out to Air Force One immediately on 9/11/01. The reasoning seems to be that the terrorists might have targeted the school Bush was at. However it takes just a moment to reflect upon the relative ease of finding AF1 on the tarmac versus finding one small residential school from the air and that a jetliner off course and travelling towards that school would be much more noticable than a jet liner travelling towards an airport.

It just seems like common sense to me (chuckles) to keep the Prersident in the school until some modicum of air cover can be established around AF1 and a secure path to AF1 created. But that's just me.

[SpitfireIX]

Actually, it would be a nationalistic slur.


A slightly careless formulation on my part, posted during a bout of insomnia. I meant to say that you were equating being a German-language speaker (or an ethnic German) to being a Nazi.

Being German isn't an ethnicity except, of course, to Nazis.


No. "Ethnic German" refers to native German speakers of European descent, and that's how the Nazis understood the term (excluding Jews and other "untermenschen," of course),"--not merely as citizens of the country of Germany. In fact, Adolf Hitler and several other prominent Nazis were Austrian.

[negativ]

It just seems like common sense to me (chuckles) to keep the Prersident in the school until some modicum of air cover can be established around AF1 and a secure path to AF1 created. But that's just me.

This is why I've always hated the "LAWLZ he just sat there reading My Pet Goat" meme. I'm reasonably sure that "Immediately start running around like your arse is on fire" does not appear in the Secret Service protocol for handling still-unfolding security crises.

[Loss Leader]

A slightly careless formulation on my part, posted during a bout of insomnia. I meant to say that you were equating being a German-language speaker (or an ethnic German) to being a Nazi.



I have considered your complaint. There is no question that my point was to identify MaGZ as a Nazi (which I think everyone can agree he is). The manner in which I did this was to Germanicize his name. Thus, I was relying on the reader to make the connection that a Germanic appellation meant that the person was a Nazi. I invited the reader to infer that all Germanic titles denoted Nazism.

My thinking on the subject is this: If you try to exterminate the Jewish race and take over the world, at least one portion of your penalty should be that everyone associated with your country should be gently reminded of it for, say, a hundred years.

It's not my fault that today's Germans have inherited a history of evil.

[Civilized Worm]

My thinking on the subject is this: If you try to exterminate the Jewish race and take over the world, at least one portion of your penalty should be that everyone associated with your country should be gently reminded of it for, say, a hundred years.

It's not my fault that today's Germans have inherited a history of evil.


Well done, that's the same line of thinking that let to the germans persecution of jews in the first place.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

I confess I've done the "Mien Herr" thing when dealing with people like Magz, Killtown, Bill Giltner, Nesnyc and various others.

Spitfire's point remains valid though. It's unfair to germans, most of whom were born after the war. It's something I shouldn't do.

Perhaps if we want to subtly mock admitted and unashamed racists and bigots, we could address them as "Grand Cyclops" or "Imperial Wizard"?

Can we agree that all members of the KKK are universally bad and deserving of our contempt (your opinion doesn't count, Magz)?

[MIKILLINI]

I confess I've done the "Mien Herr" thing when dealing with people like Magz, Killtown, Bill Giltner, Nesnyc and various others.

Spitfire's point remains valid though. It's unfair to germans, most of whom were born after the war. It's something I shouldn't do.

Perhaps if we want to subtly mock admitted and unashamed racists and bigots, we could address them as "Grand Cyclops" or "Imperial Wizard"?

Can we agree that all members of the KKK are universally bad and deserving of our contempt (your opinion doesn't count, Magz)?

Indeed. good post SOT

[MaGZ]

Well considering that KSM was behind the 9/11 attacks and admitted to a long laundry list of offences (interestingly enough most of them were actually known about and either he or AQ were suspected for it anyway) I'm sure that had this been part of it, it'd have come out with the rest. He confessed to plots to kill President Clinton (http://edition.cnn.com/US/9808/25/bin.laden.02/index.html), Former President Carter*, Pakistani President Musarraf (http://archives.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiapcf/south/09/19/pakistan.arrests.plot/) and Pope John Paul 2nd (http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/11/11/1036308581808.html), why not one for Bush on 9/11?

I do not think it follows that a confession by KSM to an attempted assassination of President Bush would mean we would be told. If this got out, the public would then ask, "What else is the Bush administration keeping from us?"

Also they would want to know what happened to the reporters/assassins. Is there an ongoing manhunt? Have they been caught and are awaiting trial?

Best not go there.

[Loss Leader]

Well done, that's the same line of thinking that let to the germans persecution of jews in the first place.


Really? The Germans persecuted the Jews because the Jews had inherited a history of evil?

What exact evil act did the grandparents of the Jews killed in the Holocaust commit?

See, I don't just suspect the Germans of unmittigated evil during the 1930s and 40s. I don't just have a prejudice against the Germans of that period based on stereotypes and propaganda - I have the first-hand testimony of thousands of victims, the men who liberated them and even the Germans themselves.

So, I do not believe that I am engaging in the same type of thinking that led to the German persecution of the Jews in the first place. And I resent strongly your statement that I am.

[MaGZ]

I thought his theory was that Mossad agents disguised as Arabs did it?

I have always claimed AQ was responsible for 9/11. However, the Mossad using the cover of Israeli Art Students learned of the hijackers plans and did not report all that they learned to the CIA. If the CIA or any other government agency knew of the coming attacks they would have done everything possible to have prevented them from occurring.

[MaGZ]

Considering that a plane hit the Pentagon and the media was reporting a bomb went off at the State Department, was it really ridiculous for the Secret Service to assume that the President was a target? There tens of thousdands of flights in the air and no knew how many exactly were hijacked. No one knew if 93 was going to be the last flight to crash. There plenty of rumors suspecting more planes. Even a a medivac helicopter was mistaken for a hijacked flight.

Does anyone have the details about the threat that was supposedly issued against Air Force One when President Bush was flying to his retreat after leaving Florida? If I remember correctly, someone thought a secret code was compromised and there may be threats against Bush from within the government.

[MaGZ]

[Loss Leader]

I suspect both Loss Leader and LashL are Jews.



Reported.

[MaGZ]

I have considered your complaint. There is no question that my point was to identify MaGZ as a Nazi (which I think everyone can agree he is). The manner in which I did this was to Germanicize his name. Thus, I was relying on the reader to make the connection that a Germanic appellation meant that the person was a Nazi. I invited the reader to infer that all Germanic titles denoted Nazism.

My thinking on the subject is this: If you try to exterminate the Jewish race and take over the world, at least one portion of your penalty should be that everyone associated with your country should be gently reminded of it for, say, a hundred years.

It's not my fault that today's Germans have inherited a history of evil.

A point to consider: National Socialism had a appeal in most countries in Europe in the 1930's and many foreign volunteers entered Waffen SS divisions during the war in an effort to defeat Jewish Bolshevism.

A few questions to Loss Leader,
What do you think should have been done to Germany and the German people after the loss of WWII? How should they have been punished for their crimes? And please be honest, tell us how you really feel. If you chose not to respond then I think we will know why.

[MaGZ]

I confess I've done the "Mien Herr" thing when dealing with people like Magz, Killtown, Bill Giltner, Nesnyc and various others.

Spitfire's point remains valid though. It's unfair to germans, most of whom were born after the war. It's something I shouldn't do.

Perhaps if we want to subtly mock admitted and unashamed racists and bigots, we could address them as "Grand Cyclops" or "Imperial Wizard"?

Can we agree that all members of the KKK are universally bad and deserving of our contempt (your opinion doesn't count, Magz)?

The KKK was a broad base Protestant organization back in the 1920's with over four million members nationwide. The strength of the organization was mainly in the South and Midwest. In 1924 at the Democrat political convention in New York City there were KKK delegates.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klanbake

From Wikipedia:

The second Ku Klux Klan rose to great prominence and spread from the South into the Midwest and Northern states and even into Canada. At its peak, Klan membership exceeded 4 million and comprised 20% of the adult white male population in many broad geographic regions, as high as 40% in some areas. Most of the membership resided in Midwestern states.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ku_Klux_Klan#Second_Klan

If you had prominent family members who was a business or political leaders in the South or Midwest back in the 1920's then in all likelihood that person was a Klansman.

I have never been a part of the Klan, but I do consider myself a White Nationalist.

Do you really think mockery will defeat us?

[Civilized Worm]

Dude the Superman radio show defeated the Klan.

[Brainache]

...

I have never been a part of the Klan, but I do consider myself a White Nationalist.

Do you really think mockery will defeat us?

I don't think mockery will defeat you, but it does provide a few cheap laughs as your stunted and inherently idiotic ideology withers and dies. Your creed is poisonous and it is killing itself.

[SpitfireIX]

Spitfire,
I suspect both Loss Leader and LashL are Jews. If I remember correctly Loss Leader has identified himself as a Jew.


Argumentum ad personam. Even if they are Jews, they are still entitled to their opinions on this issue.

If anyone is interested, my ancestors came to America from the British Isles and Sweden. Sorry to disappoint you, there are no Germans in my family tree.


No one is interested. No nationality, race, or religion (or lack of religion) is completely immune from bigotry, prejudice, xenophobia, or hate.


Additionally, I had a great uncle in the US Army who was killed in France during the German winter offensive.


That's unfortunate. I'm lucky that both my grandfather and my two great uncles who went overseas came back in one piece. They did lose a nephew (my mother's first cousin) in Vietnam, though.

[Myriad]

I have considered your complaint. There is no question that my point was to identify MaGZ as a Nazi (which I think everyone can agree he is). The manner in which I did this was to Germanicize his name. Thus, I was relying on the reader to make the connection that a Germanic appellation meant that the person was a Nazi. I invited the reader to infer that all Germanic titles denoted Nazism.

My thinking on the subject is this: If you try to exterminate the Jewish race and take over the world, at least one portion of your penalty should be that everyone associated with your country should be gently reminded of it for, say, a hundred years.

It's not my fault that today's Germans have inherited a history of evil.

My father and his parents emigrated to the U.S. from Germany between the wars, apparently for economic rather than political reasons (that is, to escape the German depression that might later have helped give rise to National Socialism). My father was a boy at the time. Had they stayed in Germany, he claims he would -- in his own words -- "have made a good Nazi." In saying this he is referring not to any political beliefs he holds (or held then) regarding German superiority or regarding Jews, but rather to the pervasive culture of conformity and nationalism that he and all young Germans of his time were raised in. These were conditions that existed long before Hitler or National Socialism appeared on the scene. In short, he believes he would have followed orders like everyone else.

My own political outlook has much more to do with the decades I spent living in New England than with my German ancestry. I'm an American first, a "naturalized Yankee" second (which means, among other things, that I have no tolerance for having my rights trampled by any "King George" in any century), and a German as a footnote.

I have a recognizably German surname, which sounds quite natural with "Herr" and/or "Von" in front of it. My first name is somewhat stereotypically German as well, and my middle name even more so.

The guilt-by-association of associating German titles, names, origins etc. with Nazi same is therefore something I share in.

I don't object.

Loss Leader is right.

Respectfully,
Myriad

[JimBenArm]

I have never been a part of the Klan, but I do consider myself a White Nationalist.

Do you really think mockery will defeat us?
Oh, we can but hope!

This is such a shock! A white nationalist! Who woulda thunk?

You know I always say, if you're going to be a white supremacist, shouldn't you actually BE superior at something?

[Loss Leader]

A few questions to Loss Leader,
What do you think should have been done to Germany and the German people after the loss of WWII? How should they have been punished for their crimes? And please be honest, tell us how you really feel. If you chose not to respond then I think we will know why.


I have noted your questions, MaGZ, and I would be happy to respond.

There's just one problem. I have asked you questions and you have never responded to me. So I will gladly answer your questions to me if you will answer these questions which I posed to you back on March 3 in this post (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2396329#post2396329).

I will reprint my questions here:


Here's my question: Is your problem with all Jews or just the "powerful" ones. I mean, let's take it as a given that there are Jewish people in all of the most powerful positions in the media and, I guess, in industry and PACs tied closely to government.

Well, there are six million Jews in the US and about thirteen million worldwide. There are only so many positions open running Hollywood and directing multinational corporations. Let's make up a ridiculously large number and say 100,000. That's only 1.6% of all Jews in America. 98.4% of Jews have nothing to do with it.

So, here's my question: Is your problem with these 100,000 Jews or with all Jews? What would you reccomend as a solution? Assuming all of your arguments are correct, what should be done? Must we move against all Jews, just that 1.6% of Jews or what? Exactly what solution should be applied to the problem?



If you answer my questions from four months ago, I will be glad to answer all of yours.

If you refuse to answer, I think we will know why.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

The KKK was a broad base Protestant organization back in the 1920's with over four million members nationwide. The strength of the organization was mainly in the South and Midwest. In 1924 at the Democrat political convention in New York City there were KKK delegates.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klanbake

From Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ku_Klux_Klan#Second_Klan

If you had prominent family members who was a business or political leaders in the South or Midwest back in the 1920's then in all likelihood that person was a Klansman.

I have never been a part of the Klan, but I do consider myself a White Nationalist.

Do you really think mockery will defeat us?

1.) I've already said your opinion doesn't count.

2.) The klan is evil as all hell. Your argumentum ad populum is not only irrelevant, but also nearly 90 years out of date.

3.) If mockery doesn't work, small arms fire should do the trick.

EDIT: My 3rd point above is merely caustic sarcasm, rather than a call to unprovoked violence against racists.

[Civilized Worm]

Loss Leader is right.


So were the nazis also right in blaming the jews for something their ancestors did?

[Myriad]

So were the nazis also right in blaming the jews for something their ancestors did?


Exactly what actions of the Jews' ancestors did the Nazis blame the Jews for, and what evidence did they (or you) have that the Jews' ancestors actually did it?

Also, do you understand the difference between blaming and hating, and the difference between hating and killing?

Respectfully,
Myriad

[gumboot]

So were the nazis also right in blaming the jews for something their ancestors did?


While I don't agree with their opinions on the matter, I think their point is that the Jews' ancestors didn't do anything. The Germans' ancestors' did. Loss Leader also felt such persecution should last about 100 years which is only three or four generations.

Personally I have thoroughly liked every German I have ever met, and consider Nazism to be the distant past. I wish Germans would stop feeling guilty over it, because some of their efforts to suppress Nazism in Germany today sadly resemble Nazi Germany more than they do an open free society.

-Gumboot

[Loss Leader]

So were the nazis also right in blaming the jews for something their ancestors did?


Exactly what is it that my ancestors did that the Nazis were right to remind my family about?

Exactly how is my reminding Germans of their past the same as the Nazi actions towards the Jews during the Holocaust?

Exactly how many Germans have I murdered for the sins of their ancestors?

Exactly how many of my family members did the Germans murder?


The answer is at least four: My great uncle, his wife and their children of an unknown number.

[Civilized Worm]

Exactly what actions of the Jews' ancestors did the Nazis blame the Jews for, and what evidence did they (or you) have that the Jews' ancestors actually did it?


Killing Jesus. You're right though, they had no real evidence. If they did have evidence would that make it OK to blame them?


Also, do you understand the difference between blaming and hating, and the difference between hating and killing?


Yes but one does tend to lead to the other.


While I don't agree with their opinions on the matter, I think their point is that the Jews' ancestors didn't do anything. The Germans' ancestors' did. Loss Leader also felt such persecution should last about 100 years which is only three or four generations.


Oh well that's OK, a century is perfectly reasonable amount of time to BLAME PEOPLE FOR SOMETHING THEY DIDN'T DO.


Personally I have thoroughly liked every German I have ever met, and consider Nazism to be the distant past. I wish Germans would stop feeling guilty over it, because some of their efforts to suppress Nazism in Germany today sadly resemble Nazi Germany more than they do an open free society.


Maybe they wouldn't feel so guilty if other people weren't telling them that they should.


Exactly what is it that my ancestors did that the Nazis were right to remind my family about?


I didn't say they were right, they weren't, that's my point.


Exactly how is my reminding Germans of their past the same as the Nazi actions towards the Jews during the Holocaust?


Didn't say it was. The common element is the idea that people are responsible for the actions of their ancestors which in the case of the nazis led to the holocaust. Don't you think there's a lesson to be learned there?


Exactly how many Germans have I murdered for the sins of their ancestors?


13. Come on man don't be ridiculous


Exactly how many of my family members did the Germans murder?


I'm sorry for what happened to your family but that doesn't justify you blaming germans that had nothing to do with their murder.

If my father had murdered someone in your family would you hold me to task for it?

[TjW]

Killing Jesus. You're right though, they had no real evidence. If they did have evidence would that make it OK to blame them?
<snippage by TjW>


I was under the impression the story was it was a Christian who betrayed Jesus, and the Romans who killed him.

Shouldn't they have gone after Italians, instead?

[Civilized Worm]

Yeah but it was the jews who demanded that the romans executed him rather than the other guy, and it was the jews that were blamed by Paul later in the bible.

[Thunder]

If we are to believe that the historical account of Jesus' trial is true (which I almost 95% doubt), then the Jews are still not guilty of his death. All four Gospels say that a "crowd" was gathered to decide the fate of Jesus and Barrabas. Barrabas was a revolutionary who might made war against the Romans and Jesus was a faith healer who claimed to be God. This "crowd" of Jews chose to save the life of the guy who would most likely help them to end the Roman occupation (can you blaim them?) rather then saving the faith healer Son of God.

#1. You cannot blaim the Jews for saving Barrabas. He was a military asset.

#2. We have no idea how big this "crowd" was. It could have been 30 people..it could have been 100 people. Judea itself had millions of Jews and there were millions more scattered throughout the Empire. How could you blaim millions of people for the actions of maybe 30 people? No reasonable person could.

I still think the Gospels are historically poo poo but if they aren't, the Jews collectively are still not responcible for Jesus' death. Not then..and certainly not now.

But wait a second, the Jews aren't even the descendants of the ancient Jews!!! We are from the Caucasian Khazars. Now we certainly cant be blaimed for Jesus' death.

See Nazis, sometimes your insane beliefs work against ya.

[Brainache]

I was under the impression that the Nazi hatred for the Jews had more to do with the whole "International Bankers" stuff and the lies in "The Protocols..." than any actual religious dogma. All the propaganda that I have seen seems to have revolved around blaming the Jews for the depression etc.

[PhantomWolf]

I do not think it follows that a confession by KSM to an attempted assassination of President Bush would mean we would be told.

So they very conviniently snipped that out of the confession? Proof? Oh, I forgot, you don't have anything but whatever you make up on the spot will do right?

If this got out, the public would then ask, "What else is the Bush administration keeping from us?"

You assume that something is being kept from the public, yet your source for the incident occuring comes from the local media, how is that keeping it from the public?

Also they would want to know what happened to the reporters/assassins. Is there an ongoing manhunt? Have they been caught and are awaiting trial?

What's wrong with the truth? They haven't got a clue, the crew were turned away prior to the attacks occuring and as such there was little point in following them or keeping tabs on them. Only CT's like you would see anything strange in that.

Best not go there.

Only because you think that there is something sinister going on, if it was all above board, even if there was a slip up, then there is actually nothing to hide.

I have never been a part of the Klan, but I do consider myself a White Nationalist.

Do you really think mockery will defeat us?

Works on clowns, how many of them do you see running the country.... on second thoughts, make that comedians.

[Loss Leader]

I was under the impression that the Nazi hatred for the Jews had more to do with the whole "International Bankers" stuff and the lies in "The Protocols..." than any actual religious dogma. All the propaganda that I have seen seems to have revolved around blaming the Jews for the depression etc.


The German hatred for the Jews had to do with the fact that people feel better when they make someone else feel worse. Blaming a small, easily identifiable group of people for your problems is nice - it means that your problems aren't your fault and that your inadequacies are not the cause of your failures. It also means fixing your life is easier: just get rid of that small, easily identifiable group of people and your life should get instantly better. Since they're easily identifiable, you don't have to work hard to find them. Since they're a small group, you know beforehand that you'll definitely be able to beat them.

The Germans didn't hate the Jews because they thought the Jews caused the depression. The Germans hated the Jews because they cared more about making themselves feel better than they did about being decent human beings.

And that was their real sin.

[PhantomWolf]

I always thought that one of the prime reasons that the Nazi Party singled out the Jews, other than Hitler's feelings, was that in a time of depression, many of the Jews had money and businesses and so where an easy to identify target who had wealth that others didn't. I think that a lot of the anti-semite feelings today are for very similar reasons. Most White Sepremisits I know tend to be unemployed (unemployable?) and go on about the wealthy Jews and asians taking the jobs, and the coloured (Maori and Pacific Islanders here) all being a bunch of criminals who want to steal anything that doesn't move and mug what does.

[MaGZ]

I was under the impression that the Nazi hatred for the Jews had more to do with the whole "International Bankers" stuff and the lies in "The Protocols..." than any actual religious dogma. All the propaganda that I have seen seems to have revolved around blaming the Jews for the depression etc.

Part of it was the threat of Jewish Bolshevism in Russia.

[Loss Leader]

Part of it was the threat of Jewish Bolshevism in Russia.


Bahhh ha hah ha hah ha ha ha ha!!!!!!!!!!!!!snort!!!!Hahahahahahahahaha!!!!!

[PhantomWolf]

Oh, that's right, with Stalin being a Jew and all....

[Loss Leader]

If my father had murdered someone in your family would you hold me to task for it?


I'll answer this part of your post because first, I think that you've mischaracterized my argument and second, I think you are expecting a different answer.

First, I take issue with your phrase "hold me to task." What I initially said was that today's Germans should be reminded of the sins of their parents and grandparents. Actually, I said "gently reminded". By asking about whether I would hold you "to task," you are implying an argument that I did not make. You are creating a strawman and I will not play along. Thus, I will treat your question as though you had asked, "If my father had murdered someone in your family would you gently remind me of it?"

Second, my answer is yes. You are not guilty of murder, that is certain. You don't inherit your father's guilt. But you do inherit something. You are similar to your father. You were raised by this man who was capable of murder. You grew up under the influence of a murderer. You, then, are something other than an innocent party. You are like a person who carries the genetic propensity for cancer. It is in you, it is part of you and you must be extra careful to avoid it.

Under those circumstances, I believe that I would have the right and responsibility to gently remind you of your heritage. Like the doctor who reminds you to go for cancer screenings more often than the average person, it is my duty to help you keep on your guard from the evil that infected your father. I would be remiss to do anything else.

[LashL]

I suspect both Loss Leader and LashL are Jews

That would come as a big surprise to me, my Italian Catholic mother, and my Irish Catholic father.

One need not be Jewish to find your anti-semitism abhorrent.

[SpitfireIX]

That would come as a big surprise to me, my Italian Catholic mother, and my Irish Catholic father.

One need not be Jewish to find your anti-semitism abhorrent.


Maybe you're a Mossad mole who's been hypnotized to forget about being Jewish, and you'll suddenly remember and start performing acts of sabotage at the behest of the Worldwide Jewish Conspiracy when someone reads you a Robert Frost poem over the telephone. :rolleyes:

[Civilized Worm]

If we are to believe that the historical account of Jesus' trial is true (which I almost 95% doubt), then the Jews are still not guilty of his death.


Of course, but we're not dealing with very sensible folks here


I was under the impression that the Nazi hatred for the Jews had more to do with the whole "International Bankers" stuff and the lies in "The Protocols..." than any actual religious dogma. All the propaganda that I have seen seems to have revolved around blaming the Jews for the depression etc.


They used whatever propaganda worked, and the "christ killer" stuff was effective with germany's christian population.


First, I take issue with your phrase "hold me to task." What I initially said was that today's Germans should be reminded of the sins of their parents and grandparents. Actually, I said "gently reminded". By asking about whether I would hold you "to task," you are implying an argument that I did not make. You are creating a strawman and I will not play along. Thus, I will treat your question as though you had asked, "If my father had murdered someone in your family would you gently remind me of it?"


I may have misrepresented your point slightly, but you have already done the same to mine.


Second, my answer is yes. You are not guilty of murder, that is certain. You don't inherit your father's guilt. But you do inherit something. You are similar to your father. You were raised by this man who was capable of murder. You grew up under the influence of a murderer. You, then, are something other than an innocent party. You are like a person who carries the genetic propensity for cancer. It is in you, it is part of you and you must be extra careful to avoid it.

Under those circumstances, I believe that I would have the right and responsibility to gently remind you of your heritage. Like the doctor who reminds you to go for cancer screenings more often than the average person, it is my duty to help you keep on your guard from the evil that infected your father. I would be remiss to do anything else.


Wow. So what, you'd recommend I go for murder check ups? The potential to murder is in ALL OF US, the idea of singling out those who's relatives have done so isn't far removed from racial profiling.

[Loss Leader]

the idea of singling out those who's relatives have done so isn't far removed from racial profiling.


Once again, you misrepresent what I said. I was speaking of the case where the murderer was your father, not just a random "relative".

[Loss Leader]

That would come as a big surprise to me, my Italian Catholic mother, and my Irish Catholic father.


See, that confused me too, as I know your real name. I was thinking, "That's a Jewish name? Must have been one of those Jews from County Galway I've heard about. People are always after their lucky charms and ... other kosher General Mills cereals."

[Elizabeth I]

Part of it was the threat of Jewish Bolshevism in Russia.

Oh, that's right, with Stalin being a Jew and all....

Don't forget Karl Marx. The conspiracy's tentacles are EVERYWHERE.

(But I don't think Groucho, Harpo and Chico were Bolshevists. You couldn't tell about Zeppo and Gummo.)

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Wasn't it Karl Marx who said "For our cause to succeed, we must liberate the world from judaism"?

That's from memory, the quote may not be accurate, but I'm fairly certain Marx was no friend to the jews.

[MaGZ]

The Jewish Role in the Bolshevik Revolution and Russia’s Early Soviet Regime
by Mark Weber

http://www.solargeneral.com/library/JewRoleInBolshevikRevolution.pdf

[PhantomWolf]

The Jewish Role in the Bolshevik Revolution and Russia’s Early Soviet Regime
by Mark Weber

http://www.solargeneral.com/library/JewRoleInBolshevikRevolution.pdf

As in Mark Weber the infamous holocault denier, neo-nazi, and anti-semite? That's a bit like Stalin recommending the works of Lenin... (and no, not John)



eta: Just making sure in case the "work" was writen by Mark Weber the Jazz musician, Mark Weber the Christian musician or Mark Weber the F1 Driver. I sort of doubt it though.

[Loss Leader]

The Jewish Role in the Bolshevik Revolution and Russia’s Early Soviet Regime
by Mark Weber

http://www.solargeneral.com/library/JewRoleInBolshevikRevolution.pdf


Excellent source you cite there. The Institute for Historical Review is, of course, nothing but a Holocaust denial organization. Its publications cannot be taken seriously. The editorial board of the Journal of American History wrote, "We all abhor, on both moral and scholarly grounds, the substantive arguments of the Institute for Historical Review. We reject their claims to be taken seriously as historians."

So, regarding your pathetic attempt to introduce this antisemitic nonsense as actual research, I must say: Bwahahahahah!!!!!LOLZ!!!!!!!ha hah ha ha hahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Also, MaGZ, you asked me a question and claimed that if I didn't answer you "would know why." I responded that you had never answered my questions and I reposted them. Are you refusing to answer my questions?

Oh, and you're a Nazi.

[Belz...]

The Jewish Role in the Bolshevik Revolution and Russia’s Early Soviet Regime
by Mark Weber

http://www.solargeneral.com/library/JewRoleInBolshevikRevolution.pdf

You still hate jews, MaGZ ?

[SpitfireIX]

You still hate jews, MaGZ ?


Is the Pope Catholic?

Does a bear [Rule 8] in the woods?

Is Generalissimo Francisco Franco still dead?

[simakperrce]

So, I do not believe that I am engaging in the same type of thinking that led to the German persecution of the Jews in the first place. And I resent strongly your statement that I am.

As a German myself it's ok with me if you don't like us and you probably have good reason for it, but there is still something off in the way you hold people like me responsible for something that happened long before my birth and even the birth of my parents.

It's not that we are oblivious or unaware of what happened. You're right, that we deserve to carry that burden around for at least the next 100 years, but given that, I just don't like to be pushed into a corner where I am a Nazi by default, because it simply ain't so.

Incidentally there is currently a new wave of anti-semitism building up in Germany (and Europe at large) which is disguised as "Anti-Zionism" or even more euphemistically: "Critic of Israel". This wave is mostly caused by the Left. At the core of their argumentation is the claim, that Israelis do the same to the Palestinians that "we" have done to the Jews. It is of course a ridiculous claim and an obvious projection of guilt: We (Germans) can feel much better about our past, when we can point out that our former victims do the same to their victims.

I am just mentioning this in order to point out that the stereotypical anti-semite, an uneducated brute with a buzz-cut -- while still around -- is IMO not the main problem we have. Rather, it's academics, intellectuals and people who consider themselves educated who dish out this sort of "subtle" anti-semitism on a daily basis.

And @Sword of Truth: Marx was in fact jewish himself.

[Civilized Worm]

Once again, you misrepresent what I said. I was speaking of the case where the murderer was your father, not just a random "relative".


Fine, pretend I said parent instead of relative.

[MaGZ]

I was under the impression that the Nazi hatred for the Jews had more to do with the whole "International Bankers" stuff and the lies in "The Protocols..." than any actual religious dogma. All the propaganda that I have seen seems to have revolved around blaming the Jews for the depression etc.

Why Hitler turned on the Jews.
http://library.flawlesslogic.com/myths.htm

In the years before the war Hitler wasn't rounding up people by the thousands and shooting them the way the communists were. Hitler wasn't shooting anybody. His SS troops weren't raping or terrorizing anyone either. Hitler was doing one thing which resulted in a huge, lying hate-propaganda effort against him from Hollywood. That one thing was Hitler's campaign to break the grip of the Jews on Germany. In Germany Hitler took the news and entertainment media away from the Jews. He kicked them out of the legal profession, which they had monopolized. He kicked them out of the teaching profession, where they had been pumping their ideas into the heads of German children. And Hitler did all of this peacefully, non-violently. He didn't round Jews up and shoot them. He simply made it illegal for them to own German newspapers and German radio stations. He made it illegal for them to practice law or to teach in German schools. And so the Jews were leaving Germany. Between 1933 and 1939 two-thirds of the Jews in Germany emigrated. At the same time Jewish commissars in the Soviet Union were butchering millions of people. But the hate propaganda coming out of Hollywood was entirely anti-German, not anti-Soviet. The Jews' only concern was the welfare of their fellow Jews. They didn't care how many Russians or Ukrainians were murdered. But they screeched at the top of their lungs when Hitler took the German media away from them.

[D'rok]

Why Hitler turned on the Jews.
http://library.flawlesslogic.com/myths.htm


That Hitler sure was a reasonable fellow with some good ideas about German civil society. It's too bad History has misunderstood him so.

For crying out loud. Do we really have to put up with half-witted jackasses like this piece of excrement? What purpose is served by allowing him to continue to spew?

[Loss Leader]

Why Hitler turned on the Jews.
http://library.flawlesslogic.com/myths.htm


Oh, an article by William Pierce. Well, I'm sure everything in it is in order. Nothing untruthful or antisemitic in the writings of William Pierce, to be sure. Frankly, I'm not sure why The Turner Diaries isn't required reading in every elementary school in the country ... assuming that country is Nazistan on the continent of Idiotopia.

MaGZ, have you ever read anything that wasn't written by a crazy person? I'll give you twenty dollars if you read Their Eyes Were Watching God by Zora Neale Hurston.

Trust me. I'm a Jew, I can afford it.

[Loss Leader]

As a German myself it's ok with me if you don't like us and you probably have good reason for it, but there is still something off in the way you hold people like me responsible for something that happened long before my birth and even the birth of my parents.


I bear no ill will towards Germans of today and hold them in no way responsible for the actions of their grandparents and great-grandparents. I celebrate German Reunification (October 3) and am happy to see an economically prosperous Germany. All I have said and all I continue to maintain is that today's German has a greater responsibility to the world and to history because of yesterday's German.


Incidentally there is currently a new wave of anti-semitism building up in Germany (and Europe at large) which is disguised as "Anti-Zionism" or even more euphemistically: "Critic of Israel".


Germany, Poland, Russia and most of Europe. It's a disturbing trend that seems to get worse whenever the economy dips. We have a long, long way to go before it is eradicated.


And @Sword of Truth: Marx was in fact jewish himself.


Yea, the question of Marx' religion is always problematic. He was certainly a 100% ethnic Jew. But his father had rejected Judaism and he was raised christian. He was completely assimilated into christian society. His writings blamed culturally unassimilated Jews for a host of problems and are widely considered antisemitic by those who keep track of such things.

[Unsecured Coins]

Trust me. I'm a Jew, I can afford it.

The other day I went shopping. I picked up eggs, milk, meat, poultry, vegetables. Canned goods even though it's getting hotter by the day and soup is just something that looks handy in a kitchen. Butter. I rarely use it, but I buy it anyway. I needed bread.

I don't know what it is about bread, but I love it. I looked at the vast selection before me, white bread, wheat bread. Pumpernickle. All favorites of mine, they serve as a reminder of why I bought the butter a few minutes ago. Then I saw it. Jewish Rye. I love Jewish Rye bread. Ann, the bread section manager sees me looking at it. "Excuse me," I ask. "Is this authentic Jewish rye?" "I don't know," Ann replied. "I didn't know there was a way to tell the difference."

With haste I placed the loaf on the counter, undid the twisty tie, and yelled into the bag "You cost 5 dollars and 18 cents!'' To which the bread replied "Oy! You're payin' too much!"

I said "Yep, that's authentic" and placed it into my shopping cart and headed to the pasta aisle.

[SpitfireIX]

That Hitler sure was a reasonable fellow with some good ideas about German civil society. It's too bad History has misunderstood him so.

For crying out loud. Do we really have to put up with half-witted jackasses like this piece of excrement? What purpose is served by allowing him to continue to spew?


It's one of the prices we pay for living in free societies.

[SpitfireIX]

I bear no ill will towards Germans of today and hold them in no way responsible for the actions of their grandparents and great-grandparents. I celebrate German Reunification (October 3) and am happy to see an economically prosperous Germany. All I have said and all I continue to maintain is that today's German has a greater responsibility to the world and to history because of yesterday's German.


I agree wholeheartedly with your last statement (and your entire paragraph, for that matter). However, I still don't feel your mocking Germanicization of the names of those who spew neo-Nazi garbage is appropriate. Besides, assigning them SS or Hitler Youth ranks is a lot more fun, IMO. :D

On a more serious side note, the Japanese are clearly much more in need of being reminded about their past than the Germans are. See here (http://www.users.bigpond.com/battleforAustralia/JapWarCrimes/Denying_truth.html).

[PhantomWolf]

On a more serious side note, the Japanese are clearly much more in need of being reminded about their past than the Germans are. See here (http://www.users.bigpond.com/battleforAustralia/JapWarCrimes/Denying_truth.html).

Trust me, not something you want to bring up around many of the old Diggers down this way. There is a lot of resentment about the Japanese attitudes simmer just under the surface downunder.

[Loss Leader]

I said "Yep, that's authentic" and placed it into my shopping cart and headed to the pasta aisle.


Long way to go for a joke. You had to take two trains and get a transfer pass to that joke.

[Unsecured Coins]

Long way to go for a joke. You had to take two trains and get a transfer pass to that joke.


but... was it worth it? :eye-poppi

[CptColumbo]

Is the Pope Catholic?

Does a bear [Rule 8] in the woods?

Is Generalissimo Francisco Franco still dead?

Yes, yes, and YES! (the last was for the hearing impaired)

[Calcas]

Split the thread or get back on topic.

And, I don't mean the jokes.

I mean the rest of this page which belongs in politics.

[chillzero]

I have split the last 2 posts to a new thread:
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=86505

I am not trawling back through the thread to strip out the rest. Any further discussion about 'the Jewish Question' should be addressed in the new thread in Politics.

The topic of this thread is:

What is the most plausible conspiracy theory relating to 9/11?

[MRC_Hans]

[off topic]There is something strange about internet forums. It makes us have long discussions with people we wouldn't even be in the same room with in real life. Maybe that's what attracts them?[/off topic]

On topic, and my answer to the OP:

None. IMO none of the conspiracy theories merit the term "plausible". The proper question would be: "Which is least implausible".

What dishonesties and hiding things may be plausible, do not merit the term "conspiracy".

Hans

[simakperrce]

I celebrate German Reunification (October 3)

So at least in that respect you are more German then me. Because I couldn't care less, and I know of no other German who actively celebrates it, despite the politicians of course ;-)

That said, I have total understanding for your feelings or for the aversion of people whose family has suffered in the Holocaust.

When I was living in New York, I had two occasions where this became an issue (In Germany you hardly ever come across a Jew as they've all been killed or left). One was in a grocery store in Brooklyn where I had an old woman in the line in front of me who had a tatooed number on her forearm. When it was my turn I tried to speak as softly as possible, because I didn't want her to spot my accent. I was simply ashamed.

The other incident was when an old man exited the subway station on 14th and 8th and asked me to guide him to Gansevoort Street. When he heard me speak he asked "Are you German?". I said "Yes" and his reply was: "Then I hold you responsible for the Holocaust!". I was shocked and didn't know what to say, but he kept on walking with me. Turned out he was a Russian Jew who'd somehow escaped. We had a good chat and he even wished me a good day at the end.

Other than that: no problems. I had Jewish teachers, Jewish bosses, Jewish friends. Never an issue. But it is still problematic, of course.

[Loss Leader]

I know of no other German who actively celebrates it, despite the politicians of course


Well, I mean "celebrate" as in "am generally happy about." I actually do celebrate on October 3 but not because of German reunification; it's also my birthday.


And the day of the O.J. Simpson criminal verdict.

[simakperrce]

Well, I mean "celebrate" as in "am generally happy about." I actually do celebrate on October 3 but not because of German reunification; it's also my birthday.

Fair enough.