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View Full Version : Did Jesus teach a Pre Trib Rapture? by Terry James


billiefan2000
21st August 2003, 09:47 AM
http://www.raptureready.com/rap16.html

Most of my contemporary heroes in proclaiming prophetic truth from God’s Word believe and teach that Jesus, in the Matthew 24-25 Olivet Discourse, did not touch on the rapture. Paul the apostle, it is believed–with good reason—was the first to reveal the “mystery” that is the rapture.

The late, great Dr. John Walvoord; my close friend now with the Lord, Dr. Dave Breese; Dr. Dwight Pentecost; and other scholars of impeccable credentials all have believed and taught that the Olivet Discourse didn’t touch on the rapture.

After considerable time looking into the matter, however, I believe that Dave Hunt is right again –as he most often is.

Jesus did, I –like Dave—am convinced, plainly told of the Rapture that will occur at some unspecified time before His second advent.


Although the answer is not essential to my belief in this regard, it is wise to ask in examining the matter: Would Jesus leave out something so important as the rapture of his Church, before the terrible time of tribulation falls upon rebellious mankind?


Certainly, despite the arguments to the contrary by all who literally hate even the mention of a rapture, Jesus tells us in Revelation that He will remove His own of the Church Age before the time of God’s wrath.

“Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth” (Rev. 3:10).

Those are the words of the Lord Jesus!

True, they were given after His glorious ascension to sit on the right hand of God’s throne, but I must think that He had something to say about such a profound event while still in mortal flesh here upon earth.

Jesus told us that not even He knew the day or hour of His coming, but the Father only.

That statement couldn’t be about the time of His actually touching down on Mount Olivet in the Second Advent, because even the believing remnant of Jews will be able to count down to the nearly precise moment of that event, beginning the countdown from the time the abomination of desolation sits in the temple, declaring himself to be God (read 2 Thess. 2).

Jesus had to be referring to His coming in an event prior to that Olivet touchdown at the conclusion of Armageddon.

And talk about another surprise coming He does!

He even goes so far as to shock us by comparing His sudden coming to that of a thief breaking into a home that’s not prepared for an intruder.

This is where many of my dear colleagues say Jesus couldn’t be referring to himself in the Rapture.

Our Lord is no thief! I agree; He is no thief.


But, I didn’t make the comparison –Jesus did! Such a startling statement by our Lord must be looked at as closely as possible.

The Lord goes through the complete Tribulation era in giving the prophecies.

He next tells of His glorious coming at the second advent.

Next, He goes back to before the tribulation era, and says to watch for events, using the fig tree parable.

When it is putting forth leaves, etc., that generation can know His coming is very near, indeed. (Most believe the fig tree parable to allude to the nation of Israel being again a major mover and shaker on the world scene.

Remember, Jesus cursed the fig tree on His way to Jerusalem, and it withered. In the Olivet Discourse, He predicts a stunning comeback!)

After all of these prophetic things, the Lord returns to the time before these tribulation things occur.

He sets up things His own should be observing, etc., so as not to be surprised. Jesus said:

“Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.


For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh” (Matt. 24:35-44).

The Apostle Paul expounds greatly on the “thief” theme introduced here by Jesus.

It’s too long to go into in this limited space, but please read 1 Thessalonians, Chapter 5.

Note how Paul uses the “thief” passages.

Notice, particularly, how he uses the pronouns –we-they; us-them; you-they, etc.

Paul is talking plainly to the Church, as was the Lord Jesus in the above Scriptures.

Also, consider the Apostle Peter’s words: “But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up” (2 Pet. 3:10).

Peter here gives the entire day of the Lord, from Christ’s coming in the rapture to the complete remaking of the heavens and the earth.

It all begins “as a thief” breaking in upon an unsuspecting world!



Again, most scholars I know have said Jesus isn’t addressing the rapture in these Scriptures.

They say the following passages show that one will be taken and one left.

The one taken will go into Hades, while the one left will be left for God’s kingdom work.

I disagree.

They base their assumptions on the fact that Jesus’ words about one being taken and one left indicate a 50%-50% split.

And, not nearly that many will be raptured.

I disagree that this means an even split. This is simply the Lord saying that some will be taken (in the rapture) and some --the majority – will be left to go through Tribulation.

Another factor to consider is that Jesus indicates that things will be relatively normal when this happens; i.e., two will be resting in bed and two will be working on the job.


This doesn’t sound like the tribulation hour at the time just before Jesus comes back to me!

Notice that Jesus immediately follows this up with the fact that no one knows the hour or day the master will come to make this division.


This can’t be the second advent, when Jesus returns to judge the nations.

Everyone can know exactly when that will take place –based, again, on 2 Thessalonians, Chapter 2, counting down from the time at the mid way point of the Tribulation era when Antichrist, indwelt by Satan himself, sits in the temple on Moriah and declares himself to be God –and thus demand that all worship him as God.

There are those who would argue that Paul is the one who showed or revealed the mystery of the rapture.

It is true that the great apostle gave us details.

He showed us the truth of the mystery Jesus began giving in the Olivet Discourse, I believe.




The Rapture can happen at any moment. Let us be watching!
--Terry James

Lord Emsworth
21st August 2003, 09:55 AM
Yes.

Nyarlathotep
21st August 2003, 09:55 AM
Originally posted by billiefan2000
http://www.raptureready.com/rap16.html
The Rapture can happen at any moment. Let us be watching!
--Terry James

Or it could all be a load of horsehockey. I know which choice I am betting on.

billiefan2000
21st August 2003, 10:01 AM
Originally posted by Nyarlathotep


Or it could all be a load of horsehockey. I know which choice I am betting on.


You willing to pay up when it does happen,or will you say the Rapture is just a fluke cause you are too ignorant to see the signs of the times and see that Bible Prophecies are happening all over the world right now.

Brown
21st August 2003, 10:02 AM
Spam detected.

Possible copyright violation.

Lord Emsworth
21st August 2003, 10:04 AM
Originally posted by billiefan2000

You willing to pay up when it does happen,or will you say the Rapture is just a fluke cause you are too ignorant to see the signs of the times and see that Bible Prophecies are happening all over the world right now.

Which Bible prophecies are happening right now, besides Israel being a nation?

billiefan2000
21st August 2003, 10:08 AM
Originally posted by Lord Emsworth


Which Bible prophecies are happening right now, besides Israel being a nation?


Wait a minute,you believe Israel being a Nation again is Bible Prophecy.

Than doesnt that alone prove that any Atheist who says Israel being a Nation is nothing is lying or too ignorant to study on Prophecy then?

hgc
21st August 2003, 10:13 AM
Originally posted by billiefan2000



Wait a minute,you believe Israel being a Nation again is Bible Prophecy.

Than doesnt that alone prove that any Atheist who says Israel being a Nation is nothing is lying or too ignorant to study on Prophecy then? Just answer the question, billiefan. You were asked which bible prophesies, besides Israel, are happening right now.

Btw, Israel has been around 55 years. Why should anyone think that this particular prophesy means rapture is "imminent?"

Nyarlathotep
21st August 2003, 10:15 AM
Originally posted by billiefan2000



You willing to pay up when it does happen,or will you say the Rapture is just a fluke cause you are too ignorant to see the signs of the times and see that Bible Prophecies are happening all over the world right now.

I have seen nothing to convince me that the Bible has any more truth to it than a Spider-Man comic. The Spider-Man comic is more entertaining though.

As for all of your signs, people throughout history have interpreted whatever the situation of the world is at the time as "fulfillment of biblicalprophecy". I see nothing to make the people who say it today seem more correct than the people who said that the Black Death was fulfillment of biblical prophecy and a sign of the end times 700 odd years ago. It speaks more to the vaugness of the bible more than anything else.

As for my bet, I promise you that, if the rapture comes, I swear that I will personally go out and aquire a tutu, don it, then crawl up on my roof and sing "I'm a Little Teapot" at the top of my lungs, complete with the hand gestures, for all and sundry to see. I am that confident that it is hooey.

Lord Emsworth
21st August 2003, 10:15 AM
Originally posted by billiefan2000



Wait a minute,you believe Israel being a Nation again is Bible Prophecy.

Nah, not really. I just preemtatively wanted to exclude it. I don't think it is prophesy, but am not able to prove it.

Originally posted by billiefan2000
Than doesnt that alone prove that any Atheist who says Israel being a Nation is nothing is lying or too ignorant to study on Prophecy then?

No, it doesn't. (Same as with God)

It was other people who brought up this issue, not me or any other Atheists

Ignorant are in my opinion people who don't have the guts to question the Bible.


Back to my original question:
Which prophecies?

Max560
21st August 2003, 10:27 AM
Of course, all this Rapture nonsense is a xian bastardization of the true prophecy of the awakening of Cthulhu from his slumber. I take comfort in knowing that Cthulhu will devour the raptureready xians first.

shemp
21st August 2003, 10:30 AM
Originally posted by Nyarlathotep


Or it could all be a load of horsehockey. I know which choice I am betting on.

Put me down in the pool for "horsehockey" too.

Nyarlathotep
21st August 2003, 10:34 AM
Originally posted by shemp


Put me down in the pool for "horsehockey" too.

Looks like I am going to have to offer 2 to 1 on "Not Horsehockey" if I am going to make any money on this deal.

Suddenly
21st August 2003, 10:37 AM
Originally posted by shemp


Put me down in the pool for "horsehockey" too.

I'm willing to book all bets, for or against. Name your own odds. However, I must insist on these bets being pre-paid. ;)

Lord Emsworth
21st August 2003, 11:07 AM
Originally posted by Suddenly


I'm willing to book all bets, for or against. Name your own odds. However, I must insist on these bets being pre-paid. ;)

I bet -1Mio $ on whatever.

Where is my money?

Ruby
21st August 2003, 11:18 AM
Originally posted by billiefan2000
[B]http://www.ruptureready.com/rap16.html



There isn't going to be a *Rapture*. Dave hunt is an obsessed heresy hunter......he'd make a great debunker if he'd get off his Christian fundamentalist high horse.

I don't think you really believe in the rapture...or are even a true Christian.......if you are, then you need some heavy time on the couch with the doc. You come on here spouting nonsense and don't answer most of the questions put forth at you. It's just very odd to me.:eek:

Ruby
21st August 2003, 11:22 AM
Originally posted by billiefan2000



You willing to pay up when it does happen,or will you say the Rapture is just a fluke cause you are too ignorant to see the signs of the times and see that Bible Prophecies are happening all over the world right now.

Bible prophecies were seemingly happening in the 1st century too. It was even worse during the time of the black plague...which wiped out about a third of Europe's population. All through the ages people have said it was the "sign of the times" and it never was.

If anything, we are doing much better in this day and age than other centuries past. People way back during the plague would think they had died and gone to heaven to come live in this time.

Suddenly
21st August 2003, 11:26 AM
Originally posted by Lord Emsworth


I bet -1Mio $ on whatever.

Where is my money?


I have no Mio. Sorry. Plus, whatever happened so you won. Thus I owe you -1 Mio. Pay me.

Bets for or against rapture. Bets are accepted when money is delivered to me. Bets will be paid immediately following rapture or the end of of the universe by some other means.

Nyarlathotep
21st August 2003, 11:31 AM
Originally posted by Ruby


There isn't going to be a *Rapture*. Dave hunt is an obsessed heresy hunter......he'd make a great debunker if he'd get off his Christian fundamentalist high horse.

I don't think you really believe in the rapture...or are even a true Christian.......if you are, then you need some heavy time on the couch with the doc. You come on here spouting nonsense and don't answer most of the questions put forth at you. It's just very odd to me.:eek:

My opinion is that he never answers because he really can't think for himself. He is so indoctrinated that he has lost the capability to think for himself. You notice that he will only cut and paste other peoples thoughts, you rarely see him give his own thoughts. And if he is asked to defend him, he disapears, likely back to the safe, unquestioning, sanctuary of 'Raptureready' or where ever he spend his time. This suggests to me that he CAN"T defend them and knows it.

maybe I ought to pull a CFLarson and create a 'Nyarlathotep List' of questions for Billiefan........

nah, it's not woth the effort.

Dancing David
21st August 2003, 11:40 AM
Billiefan, Contratulations on such a lengthy post! I am very glad to see that you can do more than post and run.

However , having read the bible quite extensively I beg to disagree, what passages are there where Jesus makes reference to either the Rapture, the Tribulations or the Second Advent?
Can you quote specifc passages to support these claims.

Then you say that Revelation is the teaching of Christ?
So did Paul/Saul ,who never met the physical Jesus talk to Jesus in the spirit. How can the teachings of Paul be the teachings of Jesus.
(As evidence that Paul was not Christ , I present to you the notion that Paul never preformed any of the miracles attributed to Christ.)

I really did believe in my CHRISTION days that This Is Heaven, as tought by Christ. The world is heaven and it is state to be found in loving kindness.

I am afraid Billiefan, that it is you who will be disappointed when the Rupture does not occur, the ten headed beast was the nation of Israel as occupied by the Romans and Rome was the antichrist. If you would study the Qabbalh then you would learn how to interpret Jewish mythology correctly.

You are assigning Jesus to the same dustbis that Nostradamus belongs in when you claim that he was Paul and wasted his time prediting the future.

Do you also understand that the Messiah, is the savior of Judaism, Jesus did not teach that he came to overturn Judaism, he came to fullfill the Jewish prophecy, so if he does come again, you had best be jewish and keep a kosher household, observe the sabbath and keep all the laws in Leviticus. The Messiah is a jewish figure, so if you want the Messiah to save you, you best become Jewish.

Nyarlathotep
21st August 2003, 11:43 AM
Originally posted by Dancing David
Billiefan, Contratulations on such a lengthy post! I am very glad to see that you can do more than post and run.



Since it referred to the first person so much, I momentarily thought that Billiefan had shocked us by writing something original, but alas no, it is just another cut and paste job. Just a long one written in the first person.

Crossbow
21st August 2003, 11:56 AM
Originally posted by Nyarlathotep


Or it could all be a load of horsehockey. I know which choice I am betting on.

I will wager 500 Quatloos on horsehockey!

However, the odds against a rapture are nearly equivalent to getting a Royal Fizzbin.

Terry
21st August 2003, 12:36 PM
Originally posted by Crossbow

However, the odds against a rapture are nearly equivalent to getting a Royal Fizzbin.

Incalculable?

EdipisReks
21st August 2003, 12:41 PM
Originally posted by Crossbow


I will wager 500 Quatloos on horsehockey!

However, the odds against a rapture are nearly equivalent to getting a Royal Fizzbin.

i will bet 5000 bars of Gold-pressed latinum on it being horsehockey.

Ruby
21st August 2003, 02:12 PM
Originally posted by Nyarlathotep
[B]

My opinion is that he never answers because he really can't think for himself. He is so indoctrinated that he has lost the capability to think for himself.

Yes, that seems obvious. It is so sad. He really needs help. It makes me so angry how Christianity turns out so many robots!:mad:


You notice that he will only cut and paste other peoples thoughts, you rarely see him give his own thoughts. And if he is asked to defend him, he disapears, likely back to the safe, unquestioning, sanctuary of 'Raptureready' or where ever he spend his time. This suggests to me that he CAN"T defend them and knows it.

That is a shame and very pathetic. I could respect him more if he'd argue and really address questions.....with his own thoughts. It does not matter about spelling or grammar....but cutting and pasting and running off is disgusting. Besides, isn't he stealing from someone else by copying and pasting? I hope he has their permission!!

:eek:

Yahweh
21st August 2003, 02:12 PM
Originally posted by Nyarlathotep


Since it referred to the first person so much, I momentarily thought that Billiefan had shocked us by writing something original, but alas no, it is just another cut and paste job. Just a long one written in the first person.
I did a search and I found this article (http://www.raptureready.com/rap16.html) that billiefan ganked (I learned that word means "stole" to kids today) from RaptureReady.com.

Oh yeah, I'll place my bets on horses**t-I mean horsehockey as well.

the_ignored
21st August 2003, 02:46 PM
Originally posted by Crossbow


I will wager 500 Quatloos on horsehockey!

However, the odds against a rapture are nearly equivalent to getting a Royal Fizzbin.
I've got your "Royal Fizzbin" RIGHT HERE, BUDDY! http://www.planetsmilies.com/smilies/fighting/fighting19.gif

:p

Sorry, go back to your normal discussion.


to Dancing David:
BTW, what's this about studying Qabbalah that shows the Romans et al being the antichrist? Got any links for that?

Dancing David
21st August 2003, 03:32 PM
Originally posted by the_ignored

I've got your "Royal Fizzbin" RIGHT HERE, BUDDY! http://www.planetsmilies.com/smilies/fighting/fighting19.gif

:p

Sorry, go back to your normal discussion.


to Dancing David:
BTW, what's this about studying Qabbalah that shows the Romans et al being the antichrist? Got any links for that?

No not really , just trying to rattle the bars on Billiefans cage, but revealations while a psychotic mess makes the most sense if you interpret it in the time it was written, so the ten headed beast becomes the ten tribes of Israel and the rome being anit christ comes from hebrew gematria
SUM=60+6+600 if you transiliterate it into hebrew.

Sorry just trying to fre his mind.(Actualy the Qabbalah was stolen by Moses from the Egyptians) ;)

Crossbow
21st August 2003, 03:38 PM
Originally posted by Terry


Incalculable?

Well, Spock never actually calculated the odds of getting a Royal Fizzbin but Kirk said they were astronomical.

:p

Ladewig
21st August 2003, 04:42 PM
Most believe the fig tree parable to allude to the nation of Israel being again a major mover and shaker on the world scene.

Remember, Jesus cursed the fig tree on His way to Jerusalem, and it withered. In the Olivet Discourse, He predicts a stunning comeback!)

I was not aware that most believe that the fig tree parable refers to that. A quick Google shows that there are preachers who believe it refers to:

First century Israel about to be cut down by invading Romans (66-70 AD)
People who profess to be Christians to the world (showing their fig leaves) without having Christ in their hearts (not bearing fruit)
The nation of Israel during Jesus's life that claims to following God (showing their leaves) without really following God (not bearing fruit)
Temple worship which claims to be holy (showing their leaves) but in reality is not holy (not bearing fruit). This one is an easy interpretation because the fig-tree story is interrupted by a condemnation of temple services.
The power of faith (the story is immediately followed by the moving the mountian bit).
The humanity of Christ who got hungry and lost his temper.


My favorite reference is Why would anyone, prescient or otherwise, go looking for figs in the springtime?
Nowhere else have I seen this pointed out. Fundamentalists and evangelicals just sputter when I raise this question; they are not ready for it and often do not see the implications of it. If the New Testament is as accurate as these people would have us believe, its main character, Jesus, is a dolt.

Terry
21st August 2003, 04:54 PM
Originally posted by Crossbow


Well, Spock never actually calculated the odds of getting a Royal Fizzbin but Kirk said they were astronomical.

:p

My all-too-fallible brain has a clear memory of Kirk asking Spock the odds, and Spock, knowing full-well there was no such thing as a "Royal Fizzbin", saying they were "incalculable" - which is both literally true, and helpful to the Cap'n. However, a bit of googling suggests that what he really said was "I have never calculated them". I like my version better ;)

Crossbow
21st August 2003, 04:58 PM
Originally posted by Terry


My all-too-fallible brain has a clear memory of Kirk asking Spock the odds, and Spock, knowing full-well there was no such thing as a "Royal Fizzbin", saying they were "incalculable" - which is both literally true, and helpful to the Cap'n. However, a bit of googling suggests that what he really said was "I have never calculated them". I like my version better ;)

Tel you what, Terry.

I have all of the original series on tape so I will watch that one, A Piece of the Action, and get back to you.

headscratcher4
21st August 2003, 06:16 PM
It occurs to me that Billie may actually be right...indeed, methinks the rapture has occured.

Proof, you say?

Well, As I understand it, when the rapture happens, believers wil essentially "poof" as they are received by Jesus into heaven, leaving us sinners to our fate and damnation.

Now, as I also understand it, there are lots of "believers" in the Bush Adminsitration.

And -- here's the real proof -- so far as I can see, no one is running the government (i.e, just look at the complete lack of planning and execution in our Iraq policy), ergo, they must have been raptured! And, Billie, if you're still here, methinks you missed it -- probably a small technical violation, maybe something to do with full emersion baptism vs. a dribble on the head, or possible something to do with the nature of the Trinity, or whether Jesus was man when he was crucified, or in substance God....

Pretty clever, huh?

billiefan2000
11th September 2003, 10:36 AM
Originally posted by Ruby


There isn't going to be a *Rapture*. Dave hunt is an obsessed heresy hunter......he'd make a great debunker if he'd get off his Christian fundamentalist high horse.

I don't think you really believe in the rapture...or are even a true Christian.......if you are, then you need some heavy time on the couch with the doc. You come on here spouting nonsense and don't answer most of the questions put forth at you. It's just very odd to me.:eek:


Ruby,how do you know there wont be a Rapture then?


http://www.raptureready.com

Pahansiri
11th September 2003, 11:20 AM
Originally posted by billiefan2000



You willing to pay up when it does happen,or will you say the Rapture is just a fluke cause you are too ignorant to see the signs of the times and see that Bible Prophecies are happening all over the world right now.

Greetings my friend billiefan2000.

My friend it is good to see you back and hope you are well.

May I assume your belief in the rapture and your God is still not strong enough to take up the offer I had made to you before?

If you like perhaps you forgot my offer, you did refuse to answer me the last time for several post but in the end did and did not except my offer.

Perhaps your faith has grown and is not approaching the size of a mustard seed.

Please allow me to again make this offer to you, a offer that would clearly demonstrate to all here that contrary to the accepted belief here that you don’t at all believe in the Rapture or the Bible and what it says or God.

This offer is one that God will be happy if you take and very angry and send you to hell if you do not for not to take it is to slap him in the face.

Do you really believe billiefan?

My attorney will draft the documents and these documents will say:

Upon the event of the Christian rapture all positions, money, car, home etc owned by the person known as ___________ ( your real name billiefan) will be turned over to Mark Bertrand ( Pahansiri) and be lawfully and from here on be known as his property.

Upon the event of this rapture and after the transfer of all positions of billiefan to Mark Bertrand, Mr Bertrand will use a portion of the sale of these items to fund a Christian conversion drive and declare Jesus as truth.

How about that billiefan my friend?

Do you really love God?
Do you really believe in God?
Do you really believe in the rapture?
Do you really want to save the people not taken up by the rapture?

A “REAL” Christian would do this, will you?

triadboy
11th September 2003, 12:54 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by billiefan2000

Also, consider the Apostle Peter’s words: “But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up” (2 Pet. 3:10).

This is why I love this crap! 2 Peter is a KNOWN forgery, in that, it was not written by anyone close to living in the time of Jesus. Christians acknowledge this - and yet this guy is still quoting from it?!

Billiefan, please quote someone credible.