Private School and Taxes

[CSX2]

My wife and I are seriously considering private school for our seven year old daughter this year. After visiting the school and talking to the parents of other students we are very impressed. However, the tuition is quite steep. We can afford it but were wondering if there are any federal or state (we live in Maryland) tax deductions allowed for private school expenses.

I know I could go to the IRS web site or pick up a tax booklet but they always make my brain hurt. Anyone know the answer from experience?

[kittynh]

I've had both my children in private school. One now attends Dartmouth college. She would not have been accepted there had she attended the public schools in my area. I even teach at the same private school my younger daughter attends. The only tax breaks I know of are from certain areas in Vermont, where the small towns pay for your kids to attend public school, and give you the money to attend private if you choose.

I've given up a lot for my daughters to attend private school. But, it has been worth it. After awhile you figure out the extra fancy car would have just become old anyway. But the person your child becomes is forever. When my daughter decided to attend prep school (Westover School for Girls in Middlebury CT) I felt she was attending the best high school in the world. She loved it too. We got a break then because most prep schools offer great scholarships. You can make a lot of money and still qualify, very few students actually pay the full amount. Plus, once she proved an asset to the school, other private alumni money came our way. Even the private elementary school I teach at has scholarshipmoney.

The best part is having more of a say in your childs education. The public school really doesn't care if your kid stays or not. The private school, I can call the head of school at home anytime. All the parents have her home number, and she always has time to listen and take action.

The down side is your child will be "left out" a bit by the other neighborhood kids who attend public school. But, if you make the effort you can get your child together with other kids from the school. Just the fact that any parent is willing to shell out the money shows they at least care that much about thier child.

Oh, and as a teacher, I'm paid less, but I have so much less stress than I did teaching public school! I am a better teacher. Class size, as a teacher that means the world to me!

[CSX2]

Thanks for the reply kittynh.

I did some research and, as you implied, there are no deductions available at either the state (at least in Maryland) or federal level for private school tuition. There is one possible exception that involves a certain kind of trust but I was quickly lost in reading the details and will have to defer to a specialist to understand it.

Your comments on the quality of the private school education and the long term benefits really struck a chord and reinforced my opinion that this would be a good move. Though fancy cars don't interest me much I may have to wait awhile for my {game show prize announcer voice/on} Brand New Boat! {game show prize announcer voice/*****.

My daughter is entering second grade this year and I have been a classroom volunteer dad since Pre-K. I have seen the public school system up close and participated. I think there are some wonderful teachers in the system but they have an incredible burden to bear. I witnessed teachers bogged down with administrative tasks that take away from teaching time. I've watched as class sizes slowly creep upward. And even at these young ages I've seen students with terrible manners and discipline problems that disrupt learning activities. I think teaching is a tough enough job without having to deal with all these distractions that detract from a positive learning environment.

I think the decision is made.

Time to sharpen my pencil and get on with a budget review...

[Eos of the Eons]

I was just thinking

If all the money parents spent on private school were used in the public school system, wouldn't that help improve education for everyone? The only private schools around here are religious based anyway, so I won't pay extra to deprive my kids of science courses. Most of the catholic schools fall under public schools around here and get tax funding. That's fine too.

I'm not worried about the public school system where I live, although I found Lacombe county schools were better and had better teachers when I was a kid. In Red Deer I got a biology teacher as my chemistry teacher, and we didn't even cover some of the stuff that was on the final exam. I asked about it, and I got that lame excuse. It's hardly fair that my marks are lowered because of the teacher's lack of knowledge on the subject. Isn't there some kind of content coverage provided to teachers for what kids are expected to learn in that course?

Anyways, I just hear about how some public schools are really faultering in some places, and could benefit with money for better teachers, extra programs, etc.

It doesn't seem fair that some kids get better opportunities while others are left behind because of money instead of ability.

[kittynh]

It isn't FAIR, but it's reality. The public school in town told me to take my kid to a private school when she became "too bright". she was bored to death, and "asked too many questions". In a classroom of 35 kids and one teacher, I could see her point. In a classroom of 20 kids and 2 teachers she was happy. My youngest has severe dyslexia. Being in a rural area, her only option was to be sent to a "wharehouse" boarding school at age 7 - not enough special education teachers. The private school has a small enough class size that they don't mind spending the extra time. Plus, I pay for 10 hours private tutoring a week from an expert in this disability who teaches at the private (all boys:( ) school for dyslexics down the road.

You can fight the system, but when it's your child you don't have enough years. NH has a school crisis, where the Supreme Court has been fighting the legislature for years over school funding.

In Vermont, people and businesses aren't even allowed to give money to their local school. It has to go to a state pot, where it can be evenly doled out. That is because rich towns had more free stuff.

My eldest is now a very happy well educated child attending an Ivy League school and looking forward to being a productive part of society. NASA paid for her freshman internship and sent her to Hawaii to give a speech. so many things have been opened up for her because she went to private school. She even spend a free semester as an exchange student in Jordan (before all this mess). She would have been a great asset to a public school, but the money has to go to the kids in need. Those not struggling get short changed.

[Eos of the Eons]

So, a public school for more advanced learners may help? It's only fair since struggling kids get help in the public system. My son has tourettes and goes to a special program where he learns at his own pace and there's more hands on learning. He's two grades ahead in math, but still has fits of anger for small reasons.

Parents shouldn't have to pay more to make sure bright kids live up to their full potential, and kids whose parents can't afford private school would at least then have access.

I can see what you mean. It stinks, but how do you get a school with more advanced courses?

In high school they at least separate diplomas so that a kid can get an advanced diploma here. The courses are harder and more challenging. I found math 33 so boring. Math 30 was the more advanced course, and much better. I don't even want to know what english 33 would have been like. I got an A in english 30 (was a looong time ago)

I can't complain too much, since the system here is pretty good it seems. I don't really know what public systems are like in other countries.

It's nice to know there are parents like you who recognize and encourage your children's abilities. I just wish it was easier for all kids with great potential to be able to have the same opportunities.

Kudos to you for putting you kids firts like that! Parents like you are gems!:)

[kittynh]

Thanks. My brother and his kids live in Canada. He can easily afford private school, but the public schools are so superior there isn't the slightest need. He spends the money on piano lessons and ski lessons for the kids.

Being a teacher myself, Iknow the difference between a public school class size of 32, and the luxury of a private school class with a max of 10 to 1. I think most teachers would gladly accept their low pay, if they had smaller class sizes and more freedom.

[belinda]

I am going through the same thing at the moment myself. My (soon to be) 5 year old is starting school next year, and one look at the state school conviced us to send him to private school. He is already enrolled in a private school from Year 4 to 12 it was only 1 - 3 that he was going to go to state school anyway.

The one drawback - almost all the private schools are connected to one religion or another. The more exclusive (and expensive $$$) GPS ones at least are flexible - but he still has to go to religion classes. We have told them we are agnostic - and they seem OK, they just want him (and us) to respect their beliefs. We will as long as they respect ours. (Which they do seem to - time will tell).

Is it the same in other countries - are the private schools connected to religions?

[Eos of the Eons]

From what I can see, yes. I don't know any that aren't.

[reprise]

The majority of private schools here operate under the auspices of one of the major religions, but there are also some community schools which are privately operated, along with Montessori and Steiner schools.

That said, our society is generally more secular than that of the US and this seems to be reflected in even our private schools (where many of the students are from non-religious families) - there isn't a whole lot of religion taught at our non-fundamentalist private schools, and our private schools must teach the same core curriculum as our public schools.

Similarly, we have publicly funded specialist schools and specialist education programmes.

I find the trend towards additional tutoring outside of school really disturbing, especially in primary school. Once intended as a short-term boost to help students get on top of subjects where they were below average, it's now beginning to be seen by some parents as a necessary part of their children's education.

I think - however - that it's as difficult to compare the US education system with that of countries which have a socialised education system as it is to compare the US health care or welfare system with that of countries where those systems are socialised. It's comparing apples and oranges.

[belinda]

Reprise - thanks for the perspective, - in NSW do you also have the so-called GPS (Greater Public Schools) as in QLD? THe GPS schools here include the only private non-religious school that I know of....Bris Boys Grammar

[Yahweh]

Private school sucks. Go public education, stay public education. Please, think of Yahweh, public education is what keeps rakin' in a good 40% of the net income in his home.

[Professor Frink]

One thing to consider (and this is the argument I have used against home-schooling to my sister) is that in a private school it is more likely that your child will run into fewer different kinds of people. you can talk about class size all you want, but when your kid gets out in the world and has to work with different kinds of people, they will be at a disadvantage for not having had contact with all kinds of people. If all your children run into in a private school are people of one particular faith or high income bracket, then how will your child be later out "there" with everyone else? The argument that "the neighbor kids don't go there" or "she has other friends" is not really valid because you live in a neighborhood with people more or less like you (income and status and education) and your child's friends were chosen by other criteria. Being forced to share a classroom and playground with people you might not have chosen yourself is good practice for being in the real world.

If I were going to send my children to a private school, they would have to convince me first that they would meet kids of every social/income level and have a reasonably diverse population. The only exception to this is if I felt that my children were in danger of bodily harm by attending the (very large and diverse) public high schools in my area. Otherwise, put the kids out in the real world and let them struggle with it and learn. They'll be better for it.

If you truly think your kids will get a lousy education, or you have special needs kids, then I would probably do the same as you. but I think public schools can get a bad rap pretty easily. I'm the product of a public school system from a blue-collar town with 1200 students in the high school, and me and my siblings are doing just fine.

Frink


Frink

[Chris Haynes]

And another thing to consider:

There is no way to generalize one type of school versus another.

In some areas there are wonderful public schools (even in the USA)... and being a private school does not automatically make it better...

PLUS... what may make a school good one year may change... and it could get worse the next (a highly regarded independent parochial school had a mass exodus of students after the head mistress left --- the series of replacements apparently have not fixed whatever made the head mistress leave... I do not know the details, but there are a couple of the former students in my daughter's grade level at her school).

Sometimes even a school (public or private) will have a program that will not fit a child. Here we have a variety of public school choices, from traditional to alternative (Summerhillian type... very hippie like). While one of my kids would have thrived in the alternative school, another one would have been completely lost.

Just for my sanity I had all three kids go to the same elementary school (which in the last 12 years of having kids there, has changed from a backwater dustbin regular ed. program but with a top-notch special ed. team for my disabled child --- to one of the most requested schools in the area for regular ed. kids). It is conceivable that each child could go to a different high school.

There are also different flavors of private schools (Montessori, Waldorf, parochial, liberal, rigorous... etc.). Even within a certain type there are variations in quality --- especially when there are several of the same type (I've heard various critiques of different schools that all call themselves "Montessori").

Never ever judge a school by what the sign is out front... go inside and get to know the people. Also get to know what would be the best fit for your child. Try to fit the school to the child, not to the parent.

[kittynh]

well, I wish there was a public school here that reflected the world I expect my kids will work and live in.

Let's face it, we may pass by a heroin addict, but we won't be working side by side with one.

Some work places have security, but our public school has two full time police officers to break up fights and protect the teachers.

Lst year the public high school in our little town had two car bombs, the bombs only blew up cars, but the kids had read how to do it on the internet and thought it would be fun to try.

My neighbors kid had the fun of finding a kid hanging in the bathroom (he cut him down, he was ok), and after that none of the bathrooms have doors. And homosexuals get beat up in the real world, but for the most part the ones I work with and know socially do not fear that if it "gets out" they will be beat up at work everyday.

I say let's make school more like the real world.

[kittynh]

speaking of the real world.

There are no minorities at the local high school. Well, there are some Jewish kids, and some gay children.

My daughters high school had kids from over 20 countries. There were also poor children, as they are commited to providing inner city scholarships that pay for everything ( the culture clash between Black Americans and the Princess from Ghana was very interesting). She was able to go to Jordan on an exchange program for free - airfare and all. Just flying Royal Jordanian Airways was an education, to say nothing of living with a Muslim family. Her roommate for her last few years at school was a Jordanian, so she could practice her Arabic. Are we rich to pay for this, no. You fill our forms and pay what the school determines you can afford (it's going to hurt, but it's a fair system). She was also able to participate in her chosen sport, kayaking.

Living in the country I really did want her to experience the world, not just backwoods New Hampshire. There are actually many many boarding/day schools close to where I live. The Putney school is a great example, where children come from around the world to learn, and the local kids who attend get a real world education.

[kittynh]

at the local high school the girl from South Africa would not be in the picture...

[Professor Frink]

Good points you make about some schools. I agree that if there is a dangerous feeling to the schools, where kids are more worried about their safety than they are focused on their work and social life, and police have to have a presence to keep things in line, then it's time to move or investigate private schools. I would avoid putting my children in situations where they felt threatened like that. Fortunately, there are plenty of other school systems in my area that I could move to, not everyone has that option.

One of the things you mention happening may be isolated enough to be a learning exercise and not a threat to their lives, like the heroin dealer. The fact is that sometimes you DO work next to a heroin dealer - I know someone who worked for a professional software company who was a crack addict, believe it or not, and was in and out as an employee over a period of a couple years. How about alchoholics? Are they worse or better to work next to?

But you're right, I agree with you wholeheartedly that there is a point where enough is enough. If we get to that point, then we will be out looking for other options. And I'm not just agreeing because I'm a nerdy professor and your avatar shows you as a gorgeous babe.

Do you have any proposals to "fix" the public school problems that you see? Are the schools too lenient to troublemakers, allowing them to rule the school, and the administrators too afraid to do anything? Does the school itself lend itself to problems, in that it has lots of dark hallways and stairways, etc.? I know other high schools that removed doors from bathrooms because of liability issues. The schools are still liable for problems.

I truly wish the best for all public schools and wonder if just getting rid of people who don't want to be there is the answer. At first it would be hard and parents would fight it. but once it was done, it could serve as an example. I remember that movie with Morgan Freeman (what was it called?) being a great idea. Get rid of the people who cause the problem people. I know it's not that easy, but it should be. (For that matter, teachers who are problems should also be dumped, but I KNOW it's not easy to do that.)

Frink

[Peach Jr.]

This is a really interesting thread for me. We don't have to think about public/private schools for a while yet (the Littlest Peach will be 19 mo. on Friday), but the Mr. and I have talked about it a bit this past year.

I've worked in the public schools in a few different places (IL, CA and here in Denver). I am not convinced that will be what's best for my daughter. We've been talking off and on about homeschooling also. I'm not sure that's what is best for either my daughter or (selfishly, I admit) me.

This is the first year that school vouchers are in use here in CO, so our tax dollars are being used to support all kinds of schools...from public to Catholic, fundie to Montessori. I'm not entirely sure I agree with that either - we didnt' vote for them, but vouchers passed anyway, so for the time being (and until we finally leave Denver) we're stuck with them.

[kittynh]

I wish I knew a fix. When I lived in Manitowoc Wisconsin the public schools were wonderful. The high school had a college track, vocational track - most of the kids did not choose to go on to college from that town. You could choose which public school you wanted your child to attend, and even what teacher in the school. None of the teachers I met, and worked with, were bad. But there was always one more than another that "fit" for your child. They also had a program called GATE (gifted and talented education). Your child was nominated in second grade, and the parents had to pass a test to get the child in (they wanted parents that would be supportive of the extra work). There was a large Hmong population, talk about families with a work ethic! The town was blue collar down on their luck, but the PTA was attended by every parent. Grandparents and aunts and uncles showed up too. One dad of a child I taught always came when he was "out". He was always getting arrested for selling pot, or stealing a car...but when he was home he was at PTA meetings. He would even have me call him once a week in Green Bay when he was in prison.

Here, we have an education crisis. The courts and the state legislature are in a constant battle over funding schools. People voted in an anti tax governor, and now that he is really cutting and slashing they suddenly dislike him. There simply isn't the money, and there isn't any popular support for funding these schools. I would say that in Manitowoc the very PC saying, "It takes a village to raise a child" was true. The whole town looked out for each others children, and the school did too. They worked together. I felt I was treated like part of the family when I had a child in my classroom. I was invited to dinner by almost every family! I went too! I spent tons of my own money on supplies and even clothing for any child that didn't have gloves or a coat. Because I was allowed to really care.


But I have no clue how to make that happen here. Perhaps having no school choice but to bail to the private schools takes any pressure off the lone public school. I wish I could send my kids to the public school, and I willingly did so when I lived in Wisconsin.

[CSX2]

Well, the decision was made and our daughter is now four weeks into the second grade curriculum at private school. Just a few responses and comments to other posts:

Yahweh: "Private school sucks. Go public education, stay public education. Please, think of Yahweh, public education is what keeps rakin' in a good 40% of the net income in his home."

The last thing I want to do is draw the wrath of the almighty. Please don’t send locusts to my house! Consider that we are still paying our full share of federal, state, local, sales, property, sin, and many other taxes so we haven’t reduced the flow of funds to the public schools and have actually lessened their burden by one student. The school we have chosen receives no regular public funding although I think they compete for grants both private and public.

belinda: “The one drawback - almost all the private schools are connected to one religion or another. The more exclusive (and expensive $$$) GPS ones at least are flexible - but he still has to go to religion classes. We have told them we are agnostic - and they seem OK, they just want him (and us) to respect their beliefs. We will as long as they respect ours. (Which they do seem to - time will tell).

Is it the same in other countries - are the private schools connected to religions?”

The majority of private schools in our region of Southern Maryland were connected to a religion in one way or another and that was not an option for us. In fact, the school we have chosen is the only one (within a reasonable commuting distance) that was truly independent. It is also more than double the tuition of the parochial schools. I just couldn’t stand the thought of her attending religion classes, even in a tolerant atmosphere, any more than I would want her being taught that 1+1=3 in a tolerant atmosphere. Classes about religion - fine; classes indoctrinating children into religion - no thanks.

Professor Frink: “One thing to consider (and this is the argument I have used against home-schooling to my sister) is that in a private school it is more likely that your child will run into fewer different kinds of people. you can talk about class size all you want, but when your kid gets out in the world and has to work with different kinds of people, they will be at a disadvantage for not having had contact with all kinds of people. If all your children run into in a private school are people of one particular faith or high income bracket, then how will your child be later out "there" with everyone else?”

This was a real concern for us and I made the same argument when my sister decided to home-school three years ago. I don’t have any demographics for the school but would probably say, just from observation, that it is not as “diverse” as the public schools though not exclusive or discriminatory either . I think the balancing act here will be to keep her involved in local activities such as sports leagues, camps, clubs etc. that are not affiliated with her school. My sister does this with her kids and they do well in social situations.

Hydrogen Cyanide: “Never ever judge a school by what the sign is out front... go inside and get to know the people. Also get to know what would be the best fit for your child. Try to fit the school to the child, not to the parent.”

Great point. We visited the school several times, at their insistence I might add, both with and without our daughter present. We spoke with administrators, school heads, teachers, office support staff, and even transportation and maintenance personnel. We were given tours of the entire school and briefed on all programs including academics, athletics and the arts. One main theme was enthusiastically present throughout from every school employee we met: we are here for the purpose of educating these children and preparing them for college and life as a responsible, happy, contributing adult. This attitude and enthusiasm have continued during the first few weeks of school and we are convinced that it is sincere. We made this decision as a family, daughter included, and there has been a definite, positive change in her outlook on school already.

This was not an easy decision for us, in part due to some of the same concerns expressed in this thread. Additionally, the financial aspect was a real challenge. We do well but are by no means rich and there is only one other family in our neighborhood sending children to this school. We are making some sacrifices for this choice but we believe it was the right choice for our daughter.

[kittynh]

Good luck and it sounds like a good choice! Just remember to plan for the future. Schools get more expensive once high school hits, but unless you make a fortune you'll qualify for some scholarship money (at Westover School, which Kitten attended, 80% get financial aid). I think it has made all the difference with my daughters, and with Kitten at 19 I think they payoff is clear.

[MoeFaux]

I have some experience in this, having attended both public and private schools.
I spent grades 1-3 in private, half of 4th in private and the other half in public, 5-6 in private, 7-8 in public, 9 in private, half of 10 in private and the othe half in public, and then the rest in private.
The private schools I attended were run by Seventh-Day Adventists, as I was raised in thier church. Even as a child I noticed the difference in the education. I did very poorly in 4th grade (it may have also been due to me being transfered mid semester), and I really thought it was a joke.
When I was in public school again in grades 7 & 8, I really fell behind in math. There just wasn't the same attentiveness to the students needs as there was in the private school.
A good example of the difference in education is what happened when I transfered in grade 10. At the private school, I was working my ass off in Biology. I was the teachers pet, I took meticulous notes and asked more questions than anyone else. With all that work, I was still getting a C.
When I transfered to the public school, the biology teacher there loved me - he hadn't seen a student as interested in the subject as I was in years. He begged me to come back and grade papers for him the next year. I got to disect everyone else's projects because they didn't care about their grade. I was recieved an A+, and that's with doing half as much work as I was in the private school.
The last two years of high school, I worked my way through and I also was sponsored by anonymous donors from my church. I graded papers, cleaned the gym, lockers rooms, and washed laundry. I cleaned the church every week. It was worth it.

I would always recommend private schools before public, the education is better, and why would you want your government to teach your children? There are plenty of nonreligious private schools to send your kids to. I may be a nonbeliever now, but I still am glad I went to that private school.

I don't see why homeschooling gets such a bad rap. I think folks are thinking of the hyper-religious homeschoolers, who aren't allowed to socialize with "wordly" people.
A good friend of mine homeschools his two daughters (he'll be a speaker at TAM2, BTW), and his daughters are getting the best education possible. He takes them on all kinds of field trips, they're involved in 4H and other community activities, and they're incredibly smart.
I hope to either homeschool my future child, or send them to a nonreligious private school.

[Eos of the Eons]

This thread is getting interesting. I like hearing the personal experiences.

I know a lady that home schools. THey are very religious and won't allow any harry potter or Yugioh in their home. But their kids are out in the community a lot with sports and such. It wouldn't be for me, but I think their kids will do great.

[Professor Frink]

Originally posted by MoeFaux

I don't see why homeschooling gets such a bad rap. I think folks are thinking of the hyper-religious homeschoolers, who aren't allowed to socialize with "wordly" people.
A good friend of mine homeschools his two daughters (he'll be a speaker at TAM2, BTW), and his daughters are getting the best education possible. He takes them on all kinds of field trips, they're involved in 4H and other community activities, and they're incredibly smart.
I hope to either homeschool my future child, or send them to a nonreligious private school.

In some cases, I think that homeschooling would be okay, given the right parents and the right environment. I still have concern for the social issues, though. My sister wants to home school her youngest kid (her older kids are in high school) and she says things like "field trips and activities with other home-schooled kids" as the answer when I ask her about socialization. Fine, but socialization also has to take place WITHOUT the parent being there, or without the parent having to drive the kid where he's going, without saying "Okay, you can go to Joey's house and be there for 2 hours then come back home." When your parents are involved in all of your socialization and pick and choose who you will play with and who you will have contact with, and they are there to "guide" you through it all, when do you learn to be self-sufficient? When do you learn to deal with people you don't like, day after day and week after week, like in the real world? If you don't like some other kid your mom sets you up with, you tell her and you don't play with the kid anymore. Problem solved, right? No - because if you were in a school with other kids, you'd HAVE to find a way to deal with them.

Bottom line, and this is IMHO, I think that the lost social opportunities of a home-schooled kid, and the controlled social environment would be too restricting. My sister-in-law is a teacher at a middle school and has seen three kids come into her classes who have been home-schooled, and she says they have a terrible time fitting in. Two of the three left after a few months and went back home. What kind of life is it for a kid who realizes they don't fit in with other kids their age, and what kind of message is it to say that if something is hard, just give up and go back to the easy stuff? That's not everyone, I know, those are just some examples, but the message that I see from EVERY home-schooler parent I have ever talked to is "my kid needs to be protected from the horrible public schools [false in most cases] and I can do a better job myself of teaching my kid [false in most cases]."

Frink

[kittynh]

Don't laugh, but when Kitten decided she WAS going to boarding school for high school I was like, "what?" She loved it, and grew up by about 20 years the first year. At 13 she thought doing her own laundry was cool. And the 10:00 bedtime! I hadn't been able to get her to go to bed by 10 for years. she thought she was so grown up, little knowing she was living in a nunnery! Going off to college, she was amazed at the inability of the other freshmen to adjust! I was worried until my psychologist sister in law said by 13 you can tell with most kids how they are going to turn out. She said the parents can't always see it though! But she thought she'd do fine. Best decision Kitten ever made.