transgendered 7 year old?

[Miss Anthrope]

I just watched this news story (http://edition.cnn.com/video/player/player.html?url=/video/us/2007/06/28/zahn.living.life.as.girl.cnn). I'm absolutely conflicted.

[Boo]

I can't get the link to work. I'm presuming the story is about a child that has had gender surgery without being born a hermaphodite?




Boo

[petra10]

most children at some stage show an interest in the toys and stuff of the opposit sex.What interests me most about this story is the fact they already had five boys and maybe they wanted their sixth child to be a girl.Somehow whether they meant to or not i think their desire for a girl could have influenced the child.

[Gwyn ap Nudd]

Transgenders often realize that they are the wrong physical sex when they are very young. While doctors normally will not start hormone treatments or other medical/surgical procedures before puberty, they do encourage the parents to allow them to live the lifestyle of their percieved gender.

In the very rare cases where it is just a phase that they outgrow, there is no harm done. In the vast majority of cases where they are really transgendered, it avoids all the emotional scars involved in forcing the issue, especially since all the emotional abuse involved in forcing the issue does not "cure" them of being transgendered.

[Undesired Walrus]

Transgenders often realize that they are the wrong physical sex when they are very young. While doctors normally will not start hormone treatments or other medical/surgical procedures before puberty, they do encourage the parents to allow them to live the lifestyle of their percieved gender.

In the very rare cases where it is just a phase that they outgrow, there is no harm done. In the vast majority of cases where they are really transgendered, it avoids all the emotional scars involved in forcing the issue, especially since all the emotional abuse involved in forcing the issue does not "cure" them of being transgendered.

Is it actually a confirmed scientific fact that many people are born into the wrong sex? I find it really fascinating.

[boloboffin]

With that story, "Ashley" is busted, even though they never show her face. They show a school picture and her bedroom, and people will figure it out - especially when they meet her parents. I think a lot more care should have been taken by all concerned to protect her identity.

Boo: the girl has not had surgery and was not born a hermophodite. She lives her daily life as a girl - the parents switched school and enrolled her as a girl then.

[Bikewer]

As I recall, there is still some dispute in medical circles as to whether this is a physiological condition or a psychiatric one.

There was a lot of discussion as to whether gender-reassignment surgery actually is of benefit to such people. Of course, it might be that they are thoroughly messed-up psychologically by the time they seek such surgery.....

When I was reading a lot of stuff (mostly John Money) on paraphilia and "forensic sexology", he went into some detail about the fact that all human embryos start out female, and that those with the appropriate "male" chromosome set are "masculinized" during development.
There's a lot of room for error in this process, which he felt contributed to the overwhelmingly disproportionate number of males suffering from various paraphilias.
I don't know off hand if "gender diasphoria" as the condition is called is more common amongst males; I'm inclined to think so.

[TragicMonkey]

When I was reading a lot of stuff (mostly John Money) on paraphilia and "forensic sexology", he went into some detail about the fact that all human embryos start out female, and that those with the appropriate "male" chromosome set are "masculinized" during development.
There's a lot of room for error in this process, which he felt contributed to the overwhelmingly disproportionate number of males suffering from various paraphilias.

Isn't that the guy who chopped off a kid's genitals because he thought it would be less damaging to the kid to be raised as a girl than to be a boy with a botched circumcision? And then the kid grew up without being told about it, had a miserable life because he always felt like a boy, and then found out later and wound up killing himself? That John Money?

I don't think I'd really take his theories on sexual identity too seriously.

[Undesired Walrus]

Isn't that the guy who chopped off a kid's genitals because he thought it would be less damaging to the kid to be raised as a girl than to be a boy with a botched circumcision? And then the kid grew up without being told about it, had a miserable life because he always felt like a boy, and then found out later and wound up killing himself? That John Money?

I don't think I'd really take his theories on sexual identity too seriously.


Well, he didn't do it, but studied David Reimer after his penis was destroyed by a botched circumcision.

Just too horrible.. too, absolutely awful.. words cannot express what I feel for that guy when I think of him...life is so awful...:(

[Comrade Ogilvy]

Transgenders often realize that they are the wrong physical sex when they are very young. While doctors normally will not start hormone treatments or other medical/surgical procedures before puberty, they do encourage the parents to allow them to live the lifestyle of their percieved gender.

In the very rare cases where it is just a phase that they outgrow, there is no harm done. In the vast majority of cases where they are really transgendered, it avoids all the emotional scars involved in forcing the issue, especially since all the emotional abuse involved in forcing the issue does not "cure" them of being transgendered.


Could you not at least wait for the hormones to kick in at puberty before doing anything.

[Miss Anthrope]

A lot of excellent comments. I find myself really challenged internally by this story. While a large part of me wants this child to feel supported and accepted, I worry. I worry about parental influence as mentioned in "wanting a girl". I worry about the child's identity being "busted" for sure. I worry so many of the consequences of living like this at such a young age. I am especially concerned about the child "attempting to cut off his own penis". Could there be other issues going on? Yes, and that troubles me a great deal.

Puberty certainly could clarify things. Regardless of the true cause, I think this kid needs psychiatric care for a number of reasons. Even if it is simply a matter of guidance and support--this is a tough life decision. One that seems unfathomable to me as a parent.

[Cactus Wren]

Isn't that the guy who chopped off a kid's genitals because he thought it would be less damaging to the kid to be raised as a girl than to be a boy with a botched circumcision? And then the kid grew up without being told about it, had a miserable life because he always felt like a boy, and then found out later and wound up killing himself? That John Money?Well, he didn't do it, but studied David Reimer after his penis was destroyed by a botched circumcision.

Exactly. So he only castrated the kid.

John Colapinto's original Rolling Stone article (http://infocirc.org/rollston.htm), in which David Reimer is referred to as "John/Joan Theissen"

[corplinx]

I think the parents need to be flogged and the kid needs to be sent to the kind of therapist that helps damaged minds, not the kind that teaches you to accept yourself.

Conflicted? Are people too scared to say that "thats f*cked up" anymore?

ITS A SEVEN YEAR OLD

This transgender crap is out of control.

Edited to add: If you grow up and want to live life as a chick or dude, more power to you. I could care less. TransAmerica was a good movie. BUT THIS IS MESSED UP. LIKE YOUNG GIRLS GETTING COSMETIC SURGERY BAD. NO WORSE ACTUALLY.

[Art Vandelay]

he went into some detail about the fact that all human embryos start out female, and that those with the appropriate "male" chromosome set are "masculinized" during development.I don't think that "fact" is the right word.

[Alt+F4]

First off, John Money was a monster who I hope is now burning in hell.

As for this child, yeah it's a difficult position for the parents to be in but all they have to do is talk to the parent's of a child with cancer or autism to realize how truly blessed they really are.

[Earthborn]

In the very rare cases where it is just a phase that they outgrowThis is untrue. It is not so rare for children to identify and experiment cross-gender behaviour, and it is often a phase they grow out of or becomes less important to their identity. Children who do that don't always claim to be of the opposite sex, they might also claim that they just 'like girly things', but when a child suffers lots of distress from having role they don't like and even want to cut off parts of themselves, that is usually indicative that the transgendered feelings will persist.

Is it actually a confirmed scientific fact that many people are born into the wrong sex?No, but it is a confirmed scientific fact that some people feel that way.

Of course, it might be that they are thoroughly messed-up psychologically by the time they seek such surgery.....If they are "thoroughly messed-up psychologically" then they will not get medical treatment for their transsexualism, at least not in the West and via official medical establishments. The Standards Of Care For Transsexuals do not allow sexchange on demand.

I don't know off hand if "gender diasphoria" as the condition is called is more common amongst males;It's called "gender dysphoria" (the opposite of "euphoria) and it does appear more common among biological males. That is to say more biological males seek treatment for it than biological females. It is unknown whether this is the result of pure biological differences in the condition between M->Fs and F->Ms or that it is because societal attitudes make it easier for biological females to exhibit masculine behaviour without having to change gender role.

I worry about parental influence as mentioned in "wanting a girl".I worry about parental influence too, but I am highly skeptical that parents wanting a girl can influence a child so profounly that s/he wants to be a girl. I worry more about the parents attitude towards what is appropriate behaviour for boys and girls. This kid associates femininity very strongly with dolls and frilly dresses and considers things like trucks as typical boy things. This probably means that the parents taught a strict division in things that are appropriate for boys and for girls. That means that wanting to play with certain things the child has to strongly reject one gender role in favour of another.

There are also parents who do not teach their children a strict gender division and teach their children that it is acceptable for a boy to like dolls and a girl to like trucks. With such parents a transgendered boy does not have to reject a male role right away to be able to play with dolls, and does not learn to refuse to play with trucks in order to feel accepted the way s/he is.

I worry about the child's identity being "busted" for sure.That's a serious problem of all "living in Stealth". It would be far better if the child could live in an environment where she could be accepted for being a bit different, than having to conform to strict gender norms that only accept one or the other.

I am especially concerned about the child "attempting to cut off his own penis". Could there be other issues going on?Other issues? Sounds like typical transsexual behaviour to me.

Puberty certainly could clarify things.Puberty is not some magical thing that solves everything. Just because you don't think things are clear and need to be "clarified" by puberty doesn't mean puberty is needed or is able to clarify anything. If this is a clear case, all that puberty does is make the child's condition far worse. If it is not a clear case, all puberty does is highlight the uncertainty.


Regardless of the true cause, I think this kid needs psychiatric care for a number of reasons. Even if it is simply a matter of guidance and supportI agree wholeheartedly. But I am biased; I happen to think everyone could use competent and professional guidance and support in their lives.

I think the parents need to be flogged and the kid needs to be sent to the kind of therapist that helps damaged minds, not the kind that teaches you to accept yourself.A good therapist would try to do both, at the same time. Self-acceptance is very important even if one has a "damaged mind". I see no reason to assume this child has a "damaged mind". Maybe you know more about this case? Has she been diagnosed as clinically depressed, or schizophrenic or psychopathic or as obsessive compulsive or something?

Conflicted? Are people too scared to say that "thats f*cked up" anymore?Maybe. Or maybe they are not, when something is "f*cked up". Your question may be answered when something "f*cked up" comes along.

ITS A SEVEN YEAR OLDI fail to see why age is relevant.

BUT THIS IS MESSED UP. LIKE YOUNG GIRLS GETTING COSMETIC SURGERY BAD. NO WORSE ACTUALLY.So invasive surgery on young children is by definition worse than no invasive surgery on young children?

Personally I think it depends on the situation. I don't think there is necessarily a problem with young girls getting cosmetic surgery to fix a deformity (even if it is minor) if that makes that young girl feel more confident about herself and more normal and the surgery will not cause serious problems during growth. I also don't think there is necessarily a problem with teaching children that it is okay to be a bit different than other people, which is the case here.

TransAmerica was a good movie.No, it wasn't.

[Undesired Walrus]

People have horrible lives...

[Bikewer]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Money

Money was involved in that case, apparently. However, he was also a noted authority in many aspects of "sexology" and has written a large number of books that are still considered standard in the field.
If one Googles "sexology" or "paraphilia" now, chances are references to the man will be at the top of the list.

[Z]

Our own seven-year-old has been formally diagnosed as transgender. The changes in her since we learned about this condition and chose to act have been remarkable. I was extremely dubious at first about the whole thing, but not anymore. Seeing 'Luke' transform into 'Danielle' has been an amazing experience - a child that was once difficult, surly, self-abusive and hateful has become an easy-going, friendly, self-loving one. And all we've done is allowed a few feminine bits of clothes, earrings, hair bands, and a feminine hairstyle, along with permitting her to be referred to as 'Danielle' and supplying her with her choice of toys and games.

Her school, in fact, recommended allowing her to come to school dressed as a girl - it seems they've had considerable experience dealing with the occasional transgendered child.

At this point, our intention is to stop at the level of cross-dressing until after puberty, at least. We're just not wealthy enough for the appropriate hormone therapy. We're also holding out a small reservation that it might just be a phase, but we're not hopeful that this is true, at the moment. And when she's old enough, if she wants gender reassignment surgery and we can afford it, we'll support her choice.

All that being said, I do think that transgenderism is the latest medical fad for parents, like ADHD was a decade ago (and still is, to some degree), and hyperactivity in the 70s and 80s (and I.B.S. around here, last decade). And there's no doubt that there are a lot of sicko whackos out there willing to do anything to satisfy their fantasies.

But I also think transgenderism does exist, and that it exists in varying degrees. And I think any loving parent would do anything they could to make a child feel more comfortable with themselves and their bodies.

[Alt+F4]

Our own seven-year-old has been formally diagnosed as transgender.

I applaude your decision. What I find curious about very young transgendered children is how they develop such narrow definitions about what is masculine (trucks) and feminine (Barbie).

[TragicMonkey]

I applaude your decision. What I find curious about very young transgendered children is how they develop such narrow definitions about what is masculine (trucks) and feminine (Barbie).

What does it mean for gender roles if the child plays with both, and has Barbie being run over by the truck, then she returns from the dead and seeks revenge upon the truck and pushes it over the cliff into the Grand Canyon, ie the back of the sofa?

Umm, no reason. Just asking.

Also, when Strawberry Shortcake marries a Care Bear and they seek to topple Darth Vader from ruling the galaxy, does that mean anything?

[Alt+F4]

What does it mean for gender roles if the child plays with both, and has Barbie being run over by the truck, then she returns from the dead and seeks revenge upon the truck and pushes it over the cliff into the Grand Canyon, ie the back of the sofa?

Umm, no reason. Just asking.

Also, when Strawberry Shortcake marries a Care Bear and they seek to topple Darth Vader from ruling the galaxy, does that mean anything?

I'm sure situations like you describe do happen but it's been my experience that most kids go full tilt one way or the other.

When I was a girl I wanted nothing to do with girl stuff. My sister had the Barbie Dream House and I had the G.I. Joe (with kung fu grip). Now as an adult I have no idea why I was like that. My parents neither encouraged or discouraged what I was doing. I didn't process the way I was behaving as masculine but rather as just more fun than boring girl stuff.

[davefoc]

I thought it was strange that the parents would have allowed their identity to be established so easily. It might be good for society as a whole that these issues are discussed openly, but is it good for their child that his identity and situation are made public?

My general view of these kind of cases is that if I was ever involved in the situation I would tend to defer to somebody like earthborn who seems to have actual knowledge of this kind of thing, but part of me definitely sympathizes with Corplinx's views.

Humans have what I call belief hysteresis. It takes less information for an individual to form a belief than to change that belief. Over time, beliefs can become established so strongly that they are fixed beyond all reason. I think this process might have been part of the explanation for the actions of the prosecutor in the Duke case and part of the explanations behind the actions of the Washington DC judge in the 54 million dollar pants suit.

I suspect that in some of the cases that involve an individual who believes that he is physically the wrong sex something similar may be going on. At some point, for whatever reason an individual develops a belief that they would be better off as the opposite sex. The trigger could be any kind of minor event or situation, but it is enough to start the process of belief establishment and after a period of time the belief is fixed beyond nearly all reason.

Children form beliefs quickly and given their inexperience in dealing with belief hysteresis they will often ratchet their beliefs to the point of absolute certainty without many underlying facts. My own very limited experience in dealing with this as a parent is that patience and gradual reinforcement of the idea that objectively evaluating the situation is the appropriate way to deal with this.

I am not sure that my ideas on this have any practical value, especially when dealing with something as profoundly difficult as gender identification issues. But it is hard for me to see the desire to change our sex (except in the case of genuine mixed sex conditions) as completely rational and accepting the child's beliefs along this line might work to reinforce what in the end is just a routine human belief anomaly that we are all subject to.

[petra10]

When i was young I was classed as a "tom-boy".I loved to climb trees,play football do all the rough and tumble thinks.Never played with dolls or girly things.However when I reach my teens this all changed I gradually became all girly.Make-up,skirts,boys and long hair all those kinds of girly things.So was I confused or mix-up no I was just a young child living my life.

[Miss Anthrope]

I'm sure situations like you describe do happen but it's been my experience that most kids go full tilt one way or the other.



My experience has included a full range of middle ground with full tilt being less common.

My daughter never cared for dolls. She liked some "girlie" stuff, but has always preferred swords, nunchucks, dragons and fighting. Given the option for gymnastics or martial arts, she has excelled at the martial arts. Yet her appearance, by her own choice, is very girlie. As puberty is beginning (TOO SOON!) I see certain changes in her interests, but she still dislikes pink and all things like that.

My son started playing with trucks before he knew what a truck was. He seemed to be going the "full tilt" way. Except for those times he sneaks into his sister's room, tries on perfume and says "I smell beautiful", or plays in some of her clothes.

Being a homeschooler I spend a lot of time with other people's children. Especially in secular families, I see less of the roles being enforced (this is for boys, this is for girls), and a lot of middle ground. Most of the girls don't go the doll route. Many of the boys play with dishes, pots and pans, kitchen toys generally considered "girls" stuff. Oddly enough, it's the very religious families where I find the doll collecting and more strictly imposed rules of gender. But it's anecdotal, who knows really?

As for the other comments, I simply don't have enough information about this family to know how I feel about the situation. As a parent I've never faced it. While I always knew I'd accept my child and love them exactly the same if they were gay, straight or inbetween, this kind of issue coming up at such a young age really threw me.

The two people I know personally who have changed their sex have serious issues that didn't appear to be solved by the operation. The first person started off as a straight male. He had a much older sister who grew up to become an NFL cheerleader. She was always living in the shadow of her sister, and it was glaringly obvious a lot of major baggage came with growing up in this environment. The gender reassignment compounded the issues in a lot of ways, and she seems to struggle with life even more than before. I don't discount the experiences of other transgendered people who may not have had environmental factors involved, and certainly my limited anecdotal experience cannot speak for more than these two people.

I can't possibly know what it's like to find oneself in the situation where they believe strongly they are living in the wrong body in such a fundamental way. If this is truly the case with this child, ultimately I'm happy he/she has parents who will be supportive and accepting. I'd feel better if the child had psychiatric care, that's all.

I wouldn't discount puberty has having the power to make a profound difference. It could very well make no difference at all, but it could.

[Alt+F4]

When i was young I was classed as a "tom-boy".I loved to climb trees,play football do all the rough and tumble thinks.Never played with dolls or girly things.However when I reach my teens this all changed I gradually became all girly.Make-up,skirts,boys and long hair all those kinds of girly things.So was I confused or mix-up no I was just a young child living my life.

None of that happened for me but yes, it's usually during puberty when kids start thinking about their gender and/or orientation. That's why it's so curious when children as young as seven make these determinations.

[geni]

the problem with the "wait untill puberty" aproach is that sex chnage operation are likely to be more effective before that point.

[Miss Anthrope]

the problem with the "wait untill puberty" aproach is that sex chnage operation are likely to be more effective before that point.

I can't stretch myself that far. At this point I simply cannot support gender reassignment surgery for children. Adults should have this option available to them, but I cannot support a child making this decision, or a parent signing off for it.

[supercorgi]

When I was a girl I wanted nothing to do with girl stuff. My sister had the Barbie Dream House and I had the G.I. Joe (with kung fu grip). Now as an adult I have no idea why I was like that. My parents neither encouraged or discouraged what I was doing. I didn't process the way I was behaving as masculine but rather as just more fun than boring girl stuff.

I wasn't quite like you, since I did have and played with dolls, but I always liked G.I. Joe better (he had much cooler gear than Barbie!). I also played with my brother's matchbox cars (built many a road through Mom's garden). My favorite pastime was building things with Tinkertoys and Legos. But I also spent many hours wandering through the woods collecting wildflowers and cooking things in my EZbake Oven.

You're right, boy toys were generally a lot more interesting than girl toys.

[ponderingturtle]

I will agree with those that say that children should be able to choose how ever they want to play, and it should be supported by their parents. Be that trucks, cooking, dolls or what ever. But I am not for elective surgery for children in these cases. Hormonal treatments I do not feel like I can honestly venture an opinion, as I do not feel confident in the medical aspects of it.

I also do not think it is wrong let children present themselves as the gender they want, to the extent that they can understand the situations they will be involved in.

Edit to add: I never understood why cooking was considered such a girl thing, but say chemistry and such was not. Especially how sexist the professional chef world is.

[Z]

My experience with children is that they will play with whatever they want to, as long as they're never told that such things are 'boy toys' or 'girl toys'. My sons have all played with dolls at various times, and my daughter loves cars and construction toys. Danielle prefers some of both - dolls and princess toys, along with cars and Scooby Doo stuff.

Choice of toys has never really been part of gender role in our house.

But when Danielle announced that her goal in life was to be a mommy and raise kids and be a good wife... well, that's been his wish for several years, now. It's hard to ignore.

But if it is a phase, at least we haven't done anything too rash yet.

[Hamradioguy]

I can't get the link to work. I'm presuming the story is about a child that has had gender surgery without being born a hermaphodite?
Boo

Can't get the link to work for me either. But for those who want more info on the issue of intersex (which seems to be the replacement word these days for hermaphrodite) I can recommend Elizabeth Weil's article on the rights of intersex babies in the New York Times Magazine of 24 September 2006.

Intersex is not the same as transexualism of course but it's far more common than I'd have guessed: something like 1 in 4,500 births. And decisions by doctors and parents often had devastating consequences for the child. It's an excellent article.

[Earthborn]

I can't stretch myself that far. At this point I simply cannot support gender reassignment surgery for children. Adults should have this option available to them, but I cannot support a child making this decision, or a parent signing off for it.Rest assured that there are very few people in favour of sex reassignment surgery for transsexual children at prepubescent age. Geni has it all wrong, it doesn't make much difference on the effectiveness when the surgery takes place.

What is true however is that hormone treatment is most effective before puberty. In some countries such as Germany and the Netherlands, children who have been diagnosed with persistent gender dysphoria are sometimes offered hormone treatment to inhibit the physical changes of puberty from about the age of 12 until the age of about 14. It offers them and their parents a bit more time to think about it without having to deal with too invasive and irreversible changes caused by either puberty or an actual sexchange. In some obvious cases, the age of 14 is considered to be a reasonable age to carefully start with hormones that do promote the development of secondary sex characteristics, basically starting puberty but towards the other sex. Sex reassignment surgery is not done until the age of 17 or 18, even in the most clearcut cases.

[davefoc]

earthborn,
What do you think is the driver behind the desire to change one's sex?

I know we have had this discussion before, but let me ask this. Do you reject the idea that the desire to change one's sex isn't just an extreme example of a person's fixation on an unrealistic or destructive goal?

For whatever reason, people adopt all sorts of weird beliefs and at some point after the adoption of those ideas a reevaluation of those ideas becomes almost impossible. I see this kind of behavior in lesser ways evident in myself and I suspect this is true in some ways for everybody.

It is interesting to me that the treatment of intersex conditions today is moving away from surgical solutions and more towards counseling and acceptance but the treatment for people who develop a fixation on the idea that they would be better off as the opposite sex is moving more towards invasive solutions. Do you agree that this is true and do you have any thoughts about this?

[Antiquehunter]

I must admit to being completely out too lunch when it comes to being informed / au courant with the latest scientific approach to gender dysphoria. My experience as a male (albeit a gay male) has never clouded for one second my perception of my own gender. I'm a particularly ugly woman in drag.

I don't have kids, but I find it hard to believe that a child of 7 truly 'knows' and identifies one way or another as being 'male' or 'female'. This is not a criticism of anything - but simply is my opinion. There are definitely traits of behavior at an early age that may be considered 'effeminate' for a male child (reluctance to play rough and tumble sports, introversion, playing with what are considered 'girls' toys for example) - but having this lead to the idea that a child is transgendered seems to me to be a very dangerous diagnosis.

Z - out of simple curiosity, how do you predict Luke/Danielle will identify once your child reaches puberty? Do you have a prediction that what Luke/Danielle is experiencing now is just a 'phase', or do you genuinely think that your child knows that 'he' is really a 'she' after 7 years on the planet, and having a 7 year old perspective on what gender means?

[davefoc]

I wonder how the drive behind various other obsessions associated with changing one's body compares with the desire to change one's sex.

For instance:
1. Women that have extraordinarily large breast implants.
2. Men that are consumed with body building, some to the point that they get biceps and chest implants.
3. People that get extreme facial tattoos like the guy who has his face tattooed and horns implanted in his forehead to look like a lizard.

My supposition (based on absolutely no relevant knowledge or research) is that there is something similar with the desire to change one's sex to other obsessions over profound physical changes or possibly even all obsessions.

[Bikewer]

I've long suspected that individuals that are intensely involved with appearance in it's many manifestations, from clothing to body modification, have some sort of deep-seated self-esteem problem.

I think the transgender phenomenon is something different; it appears to be much more internalized. That is, it's much more important to the sufferer that they feel like the gender that they perceive themselves to be.

There have been a number of shows on the Discovery network about such individuals, and HBO did a nice documentary as well.

[Earthborn]

What do you think is the driver behind the desire to change one's sex?Having a gender identity that does not fit one's biological sex. I think the interesting issue is how gender identity is formed, and that process goes wrong in transsexuals. I suspect neural signals from the genitalia to the brain play an important part.

Do you reject the idea that the desire to change one's sex isn't just an extreme example of a person's fixation on an unrealistic or destructive goal?Yes, I reject that idea, at least for people who are diagnosed as transsexual. It just does not describe the majority of transsexuals. I also do not consider the desire to change one's sex as "extreme", "unrealistic" or "destructive".

For whatever reason, people adopt all sorts of weird beliefs and at some point after the adoption of those ideas a reevaluation of those ideas becomes almost impossible.Many transsexuals constantly reevaluate their ideas of identity, gender and sex.

Do you agree that this is true?No, I don't think these development occur in opposite directions. I think they are slowly moving in very similar directions: towards a greater acceptance of ambiguity of sex and a greater freedom for personal expression of gender and away from medical intervention to make individuals conform to one sex or the other.

[Earthborn]

My supposition (based on absolutely no relevant knowledge or research) is that there is something similar with the desire to change one's sex to other obsessions over profound physical changes or possibly even all obsessions.You mean, like your obsession to think about transsexuality in terms of obsession? :p

I don't discount any similarity in cause out of hand, but I think the things you name differ profoundly in one way from transsexuality: transsexuals usually try hard to conform to societal norms and often don't like to stand out, while people who desire extreme body modifications purposefully try to be different.

[ReligionStudent]

Isn't the attraction to pink and other girl related toys, which they say was an indicator, at least partly a cultural construction of what are girls/boys toys?

[Miss Anthrope]

Earthborn, I haven't responded to anything specific because I haven't had much to add, but I really appreciate your contributions to this thread. You've got a very level headed and reasoned approach.

I'm just not sure what's going on with this child, and in my very limited experience, I saw lots of other things going on with my transgendered acquaintances. However, I do believe that most people who choose to go through with gender reassignment or are living as another sex are likely making the best choice to live in a way they feel is right and normal for them.

I guess it's because of my own limited experience that I would want to be sure when a young kid is making this kind of decision, that parental issues and possibly psychiatric issues aren't the cause. I've seen some really emotionally tortured children who seemed to have "all american normal parents". Thus I'm looking at this situation skeptically. I've gleaned some useful information, but I'm still in a conundrum about this particular case.

[Miss Anthrope]

Isn't the attraction to pink and other girl related toys, which they say was an indicator, at least partly a cultural construction of what are girls/boys toys?

I would agree, and I would throw that out completely if it were my own child. My kids pick their own toys, I could care less. As I said before, my daughter likes swords, sorcery and martial arts. (When she sees a cute man on TV, she sighs and says "I'd love to rule over a kingdom with him"). When my son gets into her stuff, it's usually the girlie stuff he plays with. It's a big "whatever" in my house.

In the case of this child, there are a lot of explanations for why he would be favoring the girl stuff. Focusing on the toys, either in the TV report or for the parents, is quite an oversimplification.

[Earthborn]

Isn't the attraction to pink and other girl related toys, which they say was an indicator, at least partly a cultural construction of what are girls/boys toys?I think it is entirely a cultural construction. Behaving in a stereotypical 'girly' way is a poor indicator. Most adult transgenders report having had it least some cross-gender behaviours during childhood, but many also have some that have not been considered as such. Many did have, and likely still have, some preferences that are more commonly associated with their previous gender.

[davefoc]

Having a gender identity that does not fit one's biological sex. I think the interesting issue is how gender identity is formed, and that process goes wrong in transsexuals. I suspect neural signals from the genitalia to the brain play an important part.

What is the evidence for this idea? Your notion about this is at the core of why I am skeptical about a physical cause for the desire to change one's sex. Some of who I am was shaped by my conscious knowledge of my sex. If I was a physically a girl, I would have done things differently. Adapting to the reality of one's situation is what people routinely do. For some reasons people with desires to change their sex don't do this in the area of their sexual identity.

Your hypothesis is that there not only is some sort of mechanism controlling the nature of our sexual desires but that there is some sort of mechanism controlling which sex we want to be. My hypothesis is that there is no such mechanism. I don't sense any evidence for it within me and I haven't seen any evidence for it based on my almost complete lack of relevant knowledge on the subject outside my own experience.

You mean, like your obsession to think about transsexuality in terms of obsession? :p

yes, kind of like that.

I don't discount any similarity in cause out of hand, but I think the things you name differ profoundly in one way from transsexuality: transsexuals usually try hard to conform to societal norms and often don't like to stand out, while people who desire extreme body modifications purposefully try to be different.This is interesting. From the outside it seems like quite a few transgendered individuals do like to stand out. (I've seen "The Bird Cage" and I have been to a female impersonator show so I have a few tiny facts here to go along with my otherwise almost complete lack of knowledge).

If they are trying that hard to fit into societal norms, perhaps they should be encouraged not to. It seems like the treatment of intersex individuals is moving in the direction getting them to accept who they are and getting society to accept who they are rather than to physically change them.

ETA: I changed the word fix to change in the sentence above. "Change" was closer to the meaning I intended.

[Z]

Z - out of simple curiosity, how do you predict Luke/Danielle will identify once your child reaches puberty? Do you have a prediction that what Luke/Danielle is experiencing now is just a 'phase', or do you genuinely think that your child knows that 'he' is really a 'she' after 7 years on the planet, and having a 7 year old perspective on what gender means?

Well, personally, I don't think making a prediction at this point makes much sense. We're not talking the average kid here - this is a high-functioning autistic child with issues regarding his natural father, problems with second-child syndrome, etc. This could as much be a phase to garnish a bit of extra attention, as it could be true dysmorphia. On the other hand, she took real joy at being identified as female - wearing pretty hairbands and skirts, being called by the feminine name, etc. have all soothed and pleased her to an extent I've never witnessed in her before. And her more severe autistic signs seems reduced when she's dressed as a girl. Why that would affect her so is beyond my understanding.

I do know that she has a better understanding of traditional gender roles in general than many of her peers, including perceived prejudice; her father has been a very chauvenistic man in the past, including insisting the kids called their mother 'little darlin', rather than mommy, and denying her any right to controlling her own pay, education, friends, etc. In spite of seeing this, Danielle still wants to be mommy... of course, that could just as much be backlash from recognizing what an [pass the butter please] their father is.

I think as far as more extensive treatment goes, we'll wait a while. I think Danielle could turn out perfectly happy as a transvestite male - we certainly know a lot of very happy queens. Maybe we'll seek to delay puberty a while, maybe not. I think at this point, it's best to wait and see, and allow her to dress as she pleases.

[Lonewulf]

If they are trying that hard to fit into societal norms, perhaps they should be encouraged not to.

And yet, the people that say how they're wrong or demented to desire physical change are trying to keep them within societal norms.

Question: Have you interviewed an actual transsexual? I know someone from another forum that went through this process, and "her" viewpoint on the subject is somewhat enlightening. If you're interested, I can try to dig up the post (with the individual's permission. I promise nothing...)

[Janus]

My hypothesis is that there is no such mechanism. I don't sense any evidence for it within me and I haven't seen any evidence for it based on my almost complete lack of relevant knowledge on the subject outside my own experience.


Of course you haven't seen any evidence within your self. Nobody notices their own biological mechanisms if those mechanisms are working perfectly. How many people are aware of their kidneys until they start to fail?

So if there is no mechanism, how did you become who you are? Did you parents sit you down and explain that you have certain genitals and therefore you should choose certain peers, emulate certain role models and adopt certain mannerisms?

[davefoc]

Of course you haven't seen any evidence within your self. Nobody notices their own biological mechanisms if those mechanisms are working perfectly. How many people are aware of their kidneys until they start to fail?


Clearly we are aware of some biological drivers. There isn't any clearly rational basis for it (other than the obvious evolutionary necessity) but many of us lust after sex.

On the other hand when it comes to contemplating whether we like the sex we are most of us have had some academic internal musings about the relative advantages and disadvantages of being one sex or the other but even if we decide that the opposite sex has it better most of us just accept the sex we are as a fact of life.

Some males have interest out of the main stream for males and more in keeping with the (probably culturally defined) interests of females. Most of those males either accept this and stay on the main stream male tract to fit in or they pursue their more feminine interests at the cost of not fitting in as well. Still most of these males don't decide that it is necessary or desirable to become a female to enjoy their feminine interests. So what is the nature of the biological mechanism that is working abnormally such that an individual is willing to undergo enormous discomfort, expense and risk to change their sexual appearance and in a limited way their actual sex?



So if there is no mechanism, how did you become who you are? Did you parents sit you down and explain that you have certain genitals and therefore you should choose certain peers, emulate certain role models and adopt certain mannerisms?

I think I may have answered this above but I may not understand your point. I have no doubt that some of who I am as a male has to do with the effects of hormones on my actions and my personality and I also have no doubt that some of who I am as a male has to do with my desire to fulfill societal norms for my sex. In other words, some nature and some nurture.

It is interesting to me that some males lust after other males. If I had only looked internally I wouldn't have guessed that this was a possibility, but I don't understand the mechanism that drove me to lust after females and I find it perfectly plausible that this mechanism functioning in a different way would lead a man to lust after other males.

But what is proposed here is that there is a another biological mechanism that makes us want to either be the sex we are or to be the opposite sex that we are. I don't see any indications of that in me, that is not to say it doesn't exist. I also don't see any particular purpose for it, unlike the obvious purpose of something like lusting after sex.

One thing that is absolutely clear is that a significant aspect of the human thought process is the fixation on ideas. There is obviously some aspect of our brains that works to produce this situation. My simple suggestion is that the mechanism that creates idea fixation is a significant factor that lies behind the desire to change one's sex. There very well may be good reasons for separating this from other kinds of fixations, but my uninformed guess right now is that the mechanism behind this fixation is similar to the mechanism behind the fixations that lead to many unusual behaviors.

[Antiquehunter]

davefoc - I think you're starting to hit on the idea of gender vs sexual attraction.

And, it is for this reason that I'm struggling with the idea of treatment for children identified as being gender dysphoric until their sexual attraction has become more evident - something that isn't yet beginning to appear at age 7 (in my opinion.)

Example: From a gender perspective, I identify and portray myself as male. Indeed, from those of you who have met me, I think you'd say there is nothing particularly effeminate about how I present myself in society - although I do have a tendency to wear colourful shirts. As a child at 7, while some of my behaviours were a little 'cissy' in that I HATED sports, and tended to avoid any physical conflicts, I certainly didn't behave in a way that society would deem to be feminine. I played with 'male' toys, I dressed in a 'male' fashion.

At age 7, while I had an understanding of the physical 'ins and outs' of sexual reproduction (I read a lot) I certainly had no understanding of sexuality or sexual behaviour. When I hit puberty, and as an adolescent and an adult, it was clear that my sexual attraction was towards males - specifically, males whose gender identification is male. Indeed, a gay male who is somewhat fey or 'nelly' is definitely not attractive to me. Likewise, I have no attraction to transvestites.

So - at age 7, I don't disagree that a child may engage in behaviours that indicates that their gender is different from their physical sex, or at least, that they are comfortable in a different gender role. However, their sexual attraction simply is years away from forming - and in any case, many people's sexual attraction is on a sliding scale. Some people have sexual experiences with people of both genders. Some men develop an attraction to men who dress as women. Some men who dress as women are attracted to women.

Bottom line - I'd be extremely reluctant to engage in a treatment or therapy that may influence sexual attraction at an early age, and indeed, I don't think puberty is the appropriate point to determine 'this child is physically male, prefers to be female, and is attracted to men, so is a candidate for hormone therapy leading up to gender reassignment'. Allowing and being permissive of a child / young person to present themselves as other than their physical sex is more or less harmless - and likely much healthier than trying to force a child to be more 'manly' or more 'girly'. But starting to mess around with hormones and irreversible surgery seems to me irresponsible, based on what we know of human sexuality and the human psyche today.

And Z - thank you very much for your reply to my queries, and sharing with the forum.

[Janus]

Sex and sexuality doesn't have as much to do with Transgenderism as most people here seem to think. It is about identity. It is about how people see themselves, what role they feel comfortable in and what behaviours they naturally exhibit. Transgendered people don't have gender reassignment because they like the idea, but because they are tired of censoring themselves, checking and correcting their own behaviour and measuring themselves against ideals which they can't identify with and feel no affinity for. It's also worth noting that many TG people choose not to proceed to surgical reassignment and are satisfied just by living in the opposite gender role.

I can't condense the evidence for a biological driver down enough fit in this forum, but it is out there. In 2003 the notoriously conservative family court of Australia ruled in favour of a couple who's marriage was challenged on the grounds that one of people was not male by birth. A significant proportion of the ruling (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/cases/cth/family_ct/2003/94.html) was based evidence of existence of brain sex and evidence that "Kevens" brain sex is male.

As for the possibility that it's just an obsession, it is in some cases, which is why most gender reassignment programs spend at least two years weeding out unsuitable candidates. There is a third group which must also be screened for which is autogynophlia/autoandrophila, where the individual has a fetish for becoming a member of the opposite sex. There are medical professionals who believe that all transsexuals are really suffering from ether dysmorphia or autogynophilia, but these professionals have lost most of their credibility over the last 20 years.

[davefoc]

And yet, the people that say how they're wrong or demented to desire physical change are trying to keep them within societal norms.

Question: Have you interviewed an actual transsexual? I know someone from another forum that went through this process, and "her" viewpoint on the subject is somewhat enlightening. If you're interested, I can try to dig up the post (with the individual's permission. I promise nothing...)

Hi Lonewulf,
I had written a response but apparently made some sort of error and it wasn't posted.

As to your comment about some people trying to keep others within what they view as social norms:
After reading a bit about the problems of intersexual people the closest I have to a solution is that we as a society should be more accepting of people with differences and that people with differences should feel more at ease with being different. It seems like society is making progress in that direction and I think we're all better for it.

As to your question about interviewing a transexual:
I have tried to make my lack of direct or relevant knowledge clear in my posts. But to expand a little further, I have no memory of ever meeting a transexual and I think it is unlikely that I have ever had any kind of substantive conversation with a transexual.

I would be interested in the viewpoint of the person you mention. I am leaving for the mountains for a week tomorrow so I won't be able to respond to anything for the next week or so.

[Lonewulf]

As to your question about interviewing a transexual:
I have tried to make my lack of direct or relevant knowledge clear in my posts. But to expand a little further, I have no memory of ever meeting a transexual and I think it is unlikely that I have ever had any kind of substantive conversation with a transexual.

See, this is a problem. You keep talking with ignorance and expect others to fill the gaps. How many conversations on this forum have you been in while talking about transsexuals? How long ago was the last one? Now, don't get me wrong, you've been polite in your discussions and I have no *real* qualms here. However...

I highly encourage you to start doing some (more?) research on the subject. I do not mean to be rude about this, nor patronizing, but I feel that it would serve you to do some research outside of this forum. While it's full of very smart people that have done research (and admittedly could point you in the way of good references and help you research the subject), sometimes it behooves us to do some research outside of the forum. :)

Like I said, I'm not trying to be patronizing about this, I'm just offering advice.

I would be interested in the viewpoint of the person you mention. I am leaving for the mountains for a week tomorrow so I won't be able to respond to anything for the next week or so.

Very well, I will ask "her" permission to post, and ask whether "she" wants to remain anonymous or not.

[davefoc]

Whether your comments were rude or not they did sting a little, mostly because I think they were reasonable. Still, I don't think anybody has posted any information that provides evidence for any kind of physical mechanism driving the desire to change one's sex.

Anyway not going to think much about this for the next week.

I'm bring along Carter's Peace not Apartheid and Galileo's daughter, but generally find that when I'm in the mountains I do less reading than I expect, although I've made it through Hound of the Baskervilles a few times on various trips.

[Lonewulf]

Whether your comments were rude or not they did sting a little, mostly because I think they were reasonable.

Well, don't let that ruin your trip. Have fun, I'll have the information up by the time you get back. :)

[Earthborn]

What is the evidence for this idea?There is a reason why I said "suspect" instead of "know".

Your notion about this is at the core of why I am skeptical about a physical cause for the desire to change one's sex.We are living in a physical universe. Everything has a physical cause, unless of course you prefer to think about transsexuals as people with female/male souls in male/female bodies.

Your hypothesis is that there not only is some sort of mechanism controlling the nature of our sexual desires but that there is some sort of mechanism controlling which sex we want to be.Something like that. I would more likely describe it as: there are mechanisms that develop in either a masculine or feminine direction and that normally develop in synch with sex characteristics.

My hypothesis is that there is no such mechanism.Interesting hypothesis. Wouldn't that mean gender identies spread evenly across the population and that 50% of people would be transgendered?

From the outside it seems like quite a few transgendered individuals do like to stand out.Obviously the transgenders who appear in the media are more likely to be people who like to stand out. Notice that I was quite careful in my formulation; I didn't claim there were no transgenders who like to stand out, just that transgenders normally try to blend in.

(I've seen "The Bird Cage" and I have been to a female impersonator show so I have a few tiny facts here to go along with my otherwise almost complete lack of knowledge).You are being silly and I am pretty sure you know it. Female impersonators are unlikely to be transgendered.

If they are trying that hard to fit into societal norms, perhaps they should be encouraged not to.... and feel free to choose how they express their gender identity... right? Careful, you are starting to sound like a transgender activist.

It seems like the treatment of intersex individuals is moving in the direction getting them to accept who they are and getting society to accept who they are rather than to physically change them.No, the treatment is moving in the direction of letting them choose who they are and getting society to accept them, and letting them choose themselves which physical changes matter to them. That's the same direction treatment for transsexuals/transgenders is moving in.

So what is the nature of the biological mechanism that is working abnormally such that an individual is willing to undergo enormous discomfort, expense and risk to change their sexual appearance and in a limited way their actual sex?If you have a better guess than I do, I like to hear it.

I also don't see any particular purpose for it, unlike the obvious purpose of something like lusting after sex.I do see a rather obvious purpose for it. A person who feels that his/her genitalia or other sex characteristics belong to them will not try to change them. A person who does not feel that way, may try to change them or get rid of them and during most of human history that would have been a rather dangerous thing to do. Not to mention an evolutionary dead-end even if surviveable. So there is a very clear evolutionary advantage to a mechanism that integrates the mental attitudes towards sex characteristics with the existing sex characteristics. As soon as you have a mechanism, it might break down in some individuals.

One thing that is absolutely clear is that a significant aspect of the human thought process is the fixation on ideas.It is absolutely clear that you are presenting your hypothesis in increasingly absolutist terms.

My simple suggestion is that the mechanism that creates idea fixation is a significant factor that lies behind the desire to change one's sex.It's possible, but it does not explain what shapes the idea before it becomes fixed.

I think it is unlikely that I have ever had any kind of substantive conversation with a transexual.Oh, really? I count 2 in this thread alone.

I am leaving for the mountains for a week tomorrow so I won't be able to respond to anything for the next week or so.Have fun! Don't get trapped under any boulders that you have to knaw off your dick or something to free yourself. :)

[davefoc]

[QUOTE]
Oh, really? I count 2 in this thread alone.


Well that will give me something to think about. I realize that what I have said here might have been offensive. I have tried to make it clear that I was not speaking from an informed position and that my speculations on this very well may be without value. At any rate if I have offended, I am genuinely sorry.



Have fun! Don't get trapped under any boulders that you have to knaw off your dick or something to free yourself. :)

You might be surprised to know how seldom that happens, but I will be careful to avoid that.

[MWare]

"forensic sexology"

What a great name for a band...

[Lonewulf]

Well that will give me something to think about. I realize that what I have said here might have been offensive. I have tried to make it clear that I was not speaking from an informed position and that my speculations on this very well may be without value.

Physician, heal thyself.

http://www.transgendercare.com/medical/hormonal/brain_sex_diff.htm

http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/85/5/2034

And, I got the testimony:

What is gender dysphoria?

* Gender dysphoria is looking in the mirror and thinking who is this man/woman and what has he/she done with me?
* Gender dysphoria is opening your mouth to speak and having a voice come out which is wildly different in pitch and timbre than how it sounded in your head.
* It is being in a situation where you are with others of the gender you'd prefer to be and being excluded or even derided because you're "not" the same as them.
* It is looking down and asking what in the world is *that* doing there.
* It is going to sleep at night every night throughout adolescence wishing to wake up magically transformed.
* It is being treated by people you don't identify with and don't understand as though you're one of them, and being so darn scared because you have no idea how to fit in.
* It is growing up with an inexplicable dislike for the very type of person you are expected to become, and the fear of not knowing that any alternative exists. (And the denial of honestly believing that everybody feels that way and it will all work out somehow.)
* (Contributed by M.) It is wondering how in the world somebody does NOT find your anatomy disgusting since you do.


All of this goes on day after day, every waking minute, unrelenting, for years, for decades. Sleep may bring temporary escape, as might fantasizing, but eventually the cruel reality always returns.

Many who do not have this condition say that they cannot imagine what it must be like. Some don't understand at all. On the other hand, those who do suffer from this condition can only dream about what it must be like to have always been comfortable in one's own skin. I wanted to offer this page to at least try to explain how difficult life is for the few who were born the wrong physical sex. Most such individuals eventually seek treatment in the form of hormones and a change in outward presentation, and often surgery to construct the correct genitalia. This process is typically a tremendously positive life change and often has such good results as to make it almost impossible to tell that the person was once "different".

But you may say, "I've never known any such person." In fact, most people have but don't know it. Modern medicine can work wonders, and such people want only to blend in and be as normal as possible.

Here's a quote from the individual:

Mainly I see that davefoc is arguing from an uninformed position, though to his credit he admits as much. Hmm, I would say that maybe the first thing is to temporarily set aside the label "transgender" since it really doesn't have one specific meaning.* Female impersonators etc don't desire to change their bodies, therefore his experience with them simply isn't relevant to those who do. Another point that might be worth bringing up is the study that showed a correlation between identity and the BSTc region of the brain. And some of the things he says just aren't things one would say who's been through living with the condition - the kidneys analogy is a good one.

*(It is usually an umbrella term encompassing TS, CD, TV, androgyne/bi-gender, sometimes DQ/DK, and I'm not sure about GQ or IS. Anyway that's not how folks are using it in the thread.)

[HawkeyeMD]

Interesting thread.

I've done a little bit of work with transgender issues, and I think this discussion is really important, because one of the biggest issues facing transgender individuals is that they don't trust doctors, because of many of the reasons people have obliquely brought up.

Or because they've heard of John Money, who, despite some initial good work in the field, committed the fatal error of not being skeptical enough about his own theories. He was so determined to convince the world that his 'nurture over nature' theory was correct that he destroyed that poor boy's life. That of his brother, as well, IIRC. It doesn't stop him from being brought up as an authority, though.

A few points that occurred to me as I read through the responses: kids' ideas of what constitutes "boy" or "girl" is established quite early, certainly by the time they are two or three. They are also mistaken about many of their beliefs. (I heard from a mom the other day that her daughter firmly believed that "girls have blue eyes and boys have brown eyes".) But a child who absolutely is convinced that he should be a she, or vice versa, is a child whose beliefs should be listened to.

I agree with those who say that surgery should probably be postponed until puberty, or at least until an age where the child is able to participate more fully in the decision. (Anyone who has followed a similar thread may not be surprised I feel this way.) I also feel that this should be followed, as much as is medically possible, with infants who either have ambiguous genitalia or who are true hermaphrodites (exceedingly rare). However, from what I could tell, the girl in the story did not have surgery.

I think it is perfectly possible that any given person may have had a conversation with a transsexual and not realized it. I also think (and this is NOT meant to be incendiary) that not so long ago many people would have said that about having a conversation with someone who was gay. No reason you should know, right? :cool:

This post is dedicated to DW.

[davefoc]

I have returned. Earthborn will no doubt be happy to know that I have all my parts still attached.

It was my intention to not respond substantively to this thread. I thought there was a good chance that my speculations were right but I couldn't prove it and it seemed there was no particular value in them anyway.

Based on some of Lonewulf's links it appears that my speculations were probably wrong.

The issue of transgenderism was also a topic of discussion on our mountain trip. The general consensus on the trip seemed to be that I was wrong. Interestingly (at least to me) my daughter had two women friends that were living lives as men. As far as she knew they were not pursuing any hormone or surgery treatments.

[Earthborn]

I have returned.Welcome back! I hope you had fun.

Earthborn will no doubt be happy to know that I have all my parts still attached.Only if that makes you happy. :)

Based on some of Lonewulf's links it appears that my speculations were probably wrong.What in those articles made you think you were wrong?

Interestingly (at least to me) my daughter had two women friends that were living lives as men.They say you are never more than 2 degrees of seperation away from a tranny... :)

[davefoc]

What in those articles made you think you were wrong?



First, I thought this was a difficult question that I might be over simplifying. I think the evidence is very strong that there are differences in the nature of males and females that goes beyond their genitals and other obvious physical differences.

So exactly what would happen if an individual of one sex had some of the mental characteristics of the opposite sex couldn't be predicted from my personal knowledge at least.

One of the articles linked to by Lonewulf suggested that there was a strong correlation in the study between a physical characteristic in the brain of women and males who identified themselves as having desires to live as the opposite sex. This was at least a strong suggestion of at least some kind of physical anomaly being the cause of gender dysphoria.

So, while I don't think the idea that gender dysporia is just simply the result of the routine process that humans fixate on strange ideas has been completely disproven by anything that has been presented here, I do think it has at least been shown to be an unlikely explanation.

[skeptifem]

Isn't that the guy who chopped off a kid's genitals because he thought it would be less damaging to the kid to be raised as a girl than to be a boy with a botched circumcision? And then the kid grew up without being told about it, had a miserable life because he always felt like a boy, and then found out later and wound up killing himself? That John Money?

I don't think I'd really take his theories on sexual identity too seriously.


he didnt cut the kids penis off, it was accidentally damaged beyond repair by a hospital worker.

John money just decided to publish that raising the child as a girl was going great and that the kid had no problems psychologically living as a girl. it was all a total lie he told to prove his ideas about gender. and yes, sadly this whole thing ended in suicide a year or so ago. His idea about gender and sex was basically saying raising the kid as a boy makes them a boy and raising the kid as a girl makes them a girl in their mind. it was pretty messed up because it put all the blame for transexuals on to the parents and made it seem as though transexuals could be cured if they just worked hard enough. That idea being 'proven' through his study no doubt caused a lot of heartache for transexuals and their families- as though it wasnt hard enough to be trans in the ******* fifties.

the false research he published ended up with a lot of babies born with ambiguous genitalia/sex organs to just be changed into girls at birth. its really screwed up and only recently has there been a lot of fuss over doctors doing that to babies. People opposing that think its better to raise the child gender neuteral until they show a strong preference and address it then. it seems like a good solution to me.

anyway, surgery or at least 'passing' for the desired gender is about the only thing shown to help transexuals feel relief. this differs from other things like body dysmorphic disorder (where a person erroneously believes they have some sort of defect in appearance). In people with BDD surgery does nothing to help, the percieved defect is still there in the sufferers mind. Unfortunatley a lot of those people really do end up disfigured because they have so much surgery. so pretty much the opposite of what transexuals experience when they have surgery.

[Lonewulf]

I have returned.

Welcome back!

It was my intention to not respond substantively to this thread. I thought there was a good chance that my speculations were right but I couldn't prove it and it seemed there was no particular value in them anyway.

You did say that you were speculating, so it's understandable.

Based on some of Lonewulf's links it appears that my speculations were probably wrong.

Indeed, that would also be my opinion.

The issue of transgenderism was also a topic of discussion on our mountain trip. The general consensus on the trip seemed to be that I was wrong. Interestingly (at least to me) my daughter had two women friends that were living lives as men. As far as she knew they were not pursuing any hormone or surgery treatments.

Always interesting to find out, eh?

Personally, I'm glad that you reviewed the information, and was willing to be skeptical of your own opinion (as well as being cordial through it all). I've gotten tired of the members of this forum that don't show that kind of panache. :)