How to deal with woo woo relatives?

[portlandatheist]

[steve s]

Buy her a copy of Dr. Shermer's Why People Believe Wierd Things.

Steve S.

[portlandatheist]

Done.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

I think you need to compromise a little and she needs to compromise a lot. Her beliefs may be nutty, but your claim that religion is "a problem plauging humanity" is unreasonable too.

I'm not telling you to believe in God or wind up in hell or that kind of stuff. But a little more tolerance for those who choose to believe would probably help a little.

EDIT: The Shermer book, while very good for what it says and how it says it, is probably not a good idea. You're basically slamming her belief system by proxy. She probably won't give the book a fair hearing to begin with and it will make your relationship worse.

A clash of beliefs like this would likely be better served by therapy or counselling of some kind.

[DarkMagician]

...and believes that cell phones and cell phone towers cause cancer, depression, and other maladies...

Wait, I think cell phone towers cause depression, too.

At least I become depressed when I see one. Probably because I know too many people who can't use a cell phone intelligently in public.

[~enigma~]

Cell phones towers cause anger in me. When I see one it makes me think of the thousands of insensitive jerks that use cell phones while ignoring store clerks, while driving they dial cellphones or talk and drive 25 MPH in a 55 MPH zone, use their phone in a crowded elevator or any crowded and enclosed area. Cell phones are the bane of mankind and they bring out the "selfishness" of many people.

ETA - Nightly rant is over...

[portlandatheist]

Sword of Truth,
Thanks for the feedback, although I use "portlandatheist" here and am an atheist, I've never challenged nor will I challenge my sisters theism/atheism unless she gets involved with a particularly ugly religion, her beliefs don't really bother me either way. Nor does her belief in Astrology or homeopathy as I see these things as fairly benign even if false. The things that really get to me are the beliefs about vaccination, 9/11, and racist ideology, things that affect other people. My niece will have scarred lung tissue the rest of her life due to her whopping cough infection. 9/11 conspiracies just simply piss me off for a number of reasons and anti-Semitic conspiracy theories even more so. I am currently working on a lengthy essay concerning the rise of leftist anti-semitism and why I believe people go this direction. In fact, I see conspiracy theories and racism as tightly related, both are delusional, over generalizations, and scape goating.

[stilicho]

I think you hit on something, PA.

In a major way, belief that vaccination is wrong is itself a disease. But does she wash her hands before eating or preparing her food? People didn't always, and soap is no less a foreign substance (composed of essentially poisonous alkaloids and such) than vaccines.

If she DOES wash her hands, ask her why she does? In the 18th Century and earlier, Europeans typically used perfumes to mask the odour of the unwashed body and thought it to be perfectly healthy.

In other words, wrongheadedness is not really delusional; it's simply a case of where you draw the line at believing what's good for you.

[portlandatheist]

Stilcho,
Yes, my sister washes her hands and she is extremely health conscious in general. She does massage therapy for a living, gets plenty of exercise, etc. She didn't get her daughter vaccinations on a mere whim, but had read vast materials/propaganda promoting the idea that vaccinations cause autism, ADD, Alzheimer's, etc. I believe there is some truth (although very little) to this assertion but the problem is, although vaccinations have real side affects and real hazards, NOT getting vaccinations also carry very serious risks and consequences. When balancing the two options, its a no brainier for me but for her, its very difficult to think about the other side of the coin. This is a problem we all have: If I pick choice A, these are the risks I minimize. But I won't bother considering the consequences of not choosing choice B which could be much worse. My niece is now reaching an age where she can decide for herself to protect or not protect herself by getting vaccinations and weigh the risks/rewards. I still feel it was a tragic mistake for her not to get very basic and standard vaccinations and she suffered a severe illness as a result but this is old news. However, my sister will make further decisions based on the assumption that 9/11 was an inside job and that jews are trying to control the world. This is what I can't just stand by and accept without challenging her beliefs and a confrontation. In fact, I won't put up with this nonsense in any environment, close family member or otherwise.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Portland - My brother and I both come froma conservative mormon family. I'm active in the church, while he has become an atheist. Yet he and I have a great relationship. We hang out, go to movies together and play World of Warcraft together. The key to our good relationship is that we don't try to convert eachother.

Your situation is obviously different. The prescence of a child in the equation complicates things. I would say that your first objective should be the childs safety. If you have reason to beleive that she is putting the child in danger, then an "anonymous" tip to the appropriate authorities is certainly in order.

The racist element you claim she is getting involved with is disturbing as well. Getting her into some kind of counselling is the best I can come up with for that. The child is again a concern, you should do what you can to expose her to more tolerant perpsectives and hopefully balance out the gibberish he mother is spewing.

[Alex C]

Well personally I don't think there is much you can do to make her see the light without straining the relationship. Confronting people about their beliefs angers them because to most people, being told you're wrong is the same as being told you're stupid.

As far as the kid goes, just try to make sure she dosen't pull another vaccination stunt, and if she does... assert yourself. A kids safety is worth more than feelings.

[A W Smith]

chipping away at her vast array of conspiracy beliefs probably wont help much as they will be replaced by other conspiracies. Try to figure out why she latches on to anything a conspiracy can be injected into and work on fixing her distorted world view. Was there some traumatic event in her past which made her feel powerless? Or maybe were her life goals road blocked by poor decisions she made and she needs to blame others? does she see a psychiatrist or are they in on the conspiracy too?

[Senex]

So, in anticipation of her next visit in August, I want to be prepared not only with information to debunk her theories, but also on how to approach such issues in general. On my part, I want to note, that I’m deeply motivated to debunk above said myths, party because I believe religion, the holocaust, and other problems plaguing humanity are partially caused by delusional thinking.

If your sister lived next door to you, you might be able to come up with a debunking plan. If you see your sister once a year it is unlikely you can change her life. You can tell her what offends you and why. Pointing out offensive statements that come out of her mouth might work but I doubt a lecture will.

I would focus on your niece. Slip her books and videos that that may make her more rounded than what your sister and brother in law may provide. I would like to think that if I disagreed with my sister strongly I could grab her by the collar and talk sense to her. I know she wants to grab me by the collar and give me advice that i won't listen to. That isn't affective communication. Advice isn't worth much, but mine is not to be harsh because your sister might just decide to exclude you from her life if you are hostile -- and your niece would be the loser. Be gentle, whatever you do.

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

I feel your pain. :( All of my extended family is deeply religious and believe in a variety of woo from astrology to crop circles. My mother believes in blood type diets and "herbal remedies" instead of medication and my father leans that way as well. I also have a friend and a good acquaintance who are woo to high heaven.

I've tried speaking to them all about it but do you think they listen?

One of the stupidest things I've ever heard my dad say came when I approached the subject of my friend and the good acquaintance going to Brazil to see John of God. My father also had a boss who went to see him with his wife a few years back and brought back alot of his promotional material, the videos and stuff and had told my dad all about it.

My friend had a real medical problem and it only spread after she came back and for a time, I had my mom and dad pretty convinced he was a charlatan.

Then, when I brought it up again, he seemed to totally backpedal.

"Well, you see, my old boss showed me all of these videos of him and people in the Phillipines actually taking things out of people's stomachs."

"That's a magic trick. They have a balloon full of blood under their hand and pretend to take out chicken bones."

"That's a magic trick? I'll believe that but I still think they help people in other ways."

"In other ways?! He's a charlatan!"

"Well, I think there are many people who have gotten better after seeing him."

"If so, they weren't very sick in the first place!"

"No, I don't think so. I think it really does alot for them to be there. You see, there's an entire village of these people down there in Brazil. They've made an entire city for all those people. And people coming from all over the world."

"That's cause they're desperate!"

"No, I think he helps them and does alot for them."

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

That's one thing I never get about woos. :( They think "so many people believe in it, it must be true!" is a perfectly valid argument and they persist in patching up a sieve they think is a bucket. Just can't admit it's all a house of cards.

If I found out that "psychic surgery" was a magic trick, I'd totally write off anyone who was doing it. Cause if they lie to you about one thing when your health is at stake, they'll lie about anything and everything.

[RSLancastr]

If you saw her on a daily basis, you could gently, slowly change her mind on some of these things. But with a brief visit, there is nothing you can do that wouldn't likely be offensive, and probably drive her more deeply into her beliefs.

PA, while your sister is here for a visit, I think you should concentrate on just having a good time together, and pile up as many good memories together as you can.

[hipparchia]

My husband's family displays quite the spectrum of woo beliefs. From herbal medicine to talking to their recently deceased family members.

The rule I came to- better be kind, nod away the claims that seem ludiscous and gently try to discuss the beliefs that may lead to wasting money, time or causing general discomfort to family members (or yourself).

Needless to say, the youngest in the family are my targets, receiving science books and learning neat tricks like stopping the pulse in your hand with a rubber ball. It's fun and more promising.

Sometimes, the family's beliefs cause more of a problem. The following, I have not shared with many people until now: A cousin on my husband's side recently died of cancer at a young age. His family was at many points during his treatment disappointed at the care he received by standart medicine, and with reason. Near the final months of his life, the doctors admitted they could not do much more. So the family chose to take him to an alternative medicine center. The sums for the treatment were exorbitant, but the family is well-to-do, so they paid.

The moment I learned the name of the clinic, I checked their treatments and was horrified to find that they offered vitamin C megadoses and Insuline Potentiation Therapy, both highly dubious- if not disproven.

What could I do? Call them up and tell them they were scammed? or allow them to pay for one final bit of hope?

I chose not to tell anything, and still haven't shared the story, except with my mother in law, who seemed to also suspect the false treatment.

Maybe one day I will find a way to let the truth be known, and perhaps find a way to bust those scammers. But until then, I will just try to be kind.

Another rule about woo relatives- try to immerse them in reality. Strange beliefs often seem to spring from insecurity, frustration or fears. Try to take care of those factors and see the people less and less often try to escape into their imaginary world. Also, advertise the results of being a rational person free of superstition- show yourself to be balanced, calm, happy, and drop a hint at not believing superstitions.

For example, I married less than a year ago, and according to tradition I am bound by rules upon rules. Like what to do with the wedding candles- when and where to burn them, etc. When reminded of those, I smile and say, "I don't think I need Harry Potter magic for a good marriage, I need reason and passion".

Just be yourself and be thoughtful and kind. Seek for the appropriate moments not so much to criticize woo beliefs, but to advertise the benefits of a reasonable outlook.

[krazyKemist]

I also have family members well into woo and CT. My aunt, for example pushed my mom to pay for an homeopath to try to avoid my brother tonsilectomy. She said : 'you have nothing to lose, this could avoid the need for the operation.' Needless to say my brother had his operation, and fortunately in this case, the only loss was money. My aunt blamed the lack of success of the remedy on the fact that my mom didn't believe it would work:rolleyes: . How can you argue with such a person ? I believe that that aunt would be highly dangerous if one of us had cancer. In that case, I would certainly not hold my silence !

A few of my cousins are also very deep into that left-wing jew conspiracy thing about 9/11, as are some of my friends. What is ironic is that left-wing people always believe they know what's best for humanity.

One of the stiking things about my cousins and my aunt is that they have closed their minds to any other interpretation of things. They have absolutely no curiosity, no doubt whatsoever. They are so sure of everything. That must be very confortable. That's why I've given up on them. It's a waste of time, and can antagonize them to the point that they will stop talking to me. I like arguing for the sake of arguing, to examine things, but not them, understandably. Instead I concentrate on those whom are not so sure.

the Kemist

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

I completely agree with hipparchia and the kemist. Sometimes, even though you have reason, compassion, sense and the truth 100 percent on your side and all they have is wishful thinking and sentimentality, there's just no way to win over people.

Te best thing to do is just go along with it. I found out on my "Share the story of the first and last time you spent money on woo" thread that quite a few people bought woo to keep the peace at home. Palm readings for girlfriends who asked, alternative medicine for mothers in law who asked, that sort of thing. I know that anytime I've been honest with my woo friends, it just caused unpleasantness.

And honestly, even if you could, I don't think you neccessarily should. Take my friend Caroline. She's so deeply immersed in woo, God knows what would happen if tomorrow morning she was stripped of all her delusions.

[Zyzzyvas]

Someone is much more likely to accept that one of their defining ideas is incorrect if it comes from someone completely random. Anonymity also helps. Is there any way you could direct her towards this forum? Maybe by reading a few threads and realising that intelligent discussion actually exists, she may be encouraged to entertain the concepts of reason, evidence and logic. It also means that you two can just get on with having a good time when you see each other.

[SomeGuy]

<snip>

A few of my cousins are also very deep into that left-wing jew conspiracy thing about 9/11, as are some of my friends. What is ironic is that left-wing people always believe they know what's best for humanity.

<snip>

the Kemist

As a lefty/commie/treehugger/hippy I can't let this pass.

In my experience anyone who's outspoken about their political preferences believes they know what's best for humanity.

[Q-Source]

She must be thinking the same about how to convert you. So, why do you want the world to fit your beliefs? It is a lost war you want to fight. I love diversity.

[chracatoa]

I think there's no way out of it. Avoid the discussions. This is what I try to do with my three sisters. OTOH I love sarcasm so sometimes something slips by... and I often learn about their hurt feelings through another sister. Gossip! Isn't this what family is about? :)

[krazyKemist]

As a lefty/commie/treehugger/hippy I can't let this pass.

In my experience anyone who's outspoken about their political preferences believes they know what's best for humanity.

In my experience, the lefty/commie/treehugger/hippy type is in my experience the most outspoken though :D. But I think it depends also on what opinion's majority.

Don't worry, as I'm canadian, I am considered conservative here, but anywhere else, especially in the States, I'd be considered pretty lefty :D !

the Kemist

[NobbyNobbs]

Convert to Judaism. Ask her if you are intent on taking over the world. When she says, "No", use yourself as a case study to prove her wrong about Jews taking over.





And yes, I'm kidding.

[Flo]

Tell her you're considering converting to Judaism, because of this great opportunity to be part of the elite who will govern the World ...

[ponderingturtle]

I feel your pain. :( All of my extended family is deeply religious and believe in a variety of woo from astrology to crop circles. My mother believes in blood type diets and "herbal remedies" instead of medication and my father leans that way as well. I also have a friend and a good acquaintance who are woo to high heaven.

I've tried speaking to them all about it but do you think they listen?

One of the stupidest things I've ever heard my dad say came when I approached the subject of my friend and the good acquaintance going to Brazil to see John of God. My father also had a boss who went to see him with his wife a few years back and brought back alot of his promotional material, the videos and stuff and had told my dad all about it.

My friend had a real medical problem and it only spread after she came back and for a time, I had my mom and dad pretty convinced he was a charlatan.

Then, when I brought it up again, he seemed to totally backpedal.

"Well, you see, my old boss showed me all of these videos of him and people in the Phillipines actually taking things out of people's stomachs."

"That's a magic trick. They have a balloon full of blood under their hand and pretend to take out chicken bones."

"That's a magic trick? I'll believe that but I still think they help people in other ways."

"In other ways?! He's a charlatan!"

"Well, I think there are many people who have gotten better after seeing him."

"If so, they weren't very sick in the first place!"

"No, I don't think so. I think it really does alot for them to be there. You see, there's an entire village of these people down there in Brazil. They've made an entire city for all those people. And people coming from all over the world."

"That's cause they're desperate!"

"No, I think he helps them and does alot for them."

But he does help them lose weight, specifically from their wallet.

[ponderingturtle]

In my experience, the lefty/commie/treehugger/hippy type is in my experience the most outspoken though :D. But I think it depends also on what opinion's majority.

Don't worry, as I'm canadian, I am considered conservative here, but anywhere else, especially in the States, I'd be considered pretty lefty :D !

the Kemist

Yep when the right wing harrasses gays or people visiting reproductive centers it is because they really do know what is right for people, unlike the left who just think they do.

This is why the FBI worries more about say ALF and Earth First and don't think patriots like Ted Kisinsky are any where near the terrorist threat. link (http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/05/19/domestic.terrorism/)

[dnvergoddess]

hello, my name is nyke and i am a massage therapist who happens to have a brother in the portland area...an erstwhile atheist. two clients of mine directed me to this website after asking me if what was posted was true...if it is about me, then, no...most of it isn't true. on the slight chance that this is a mere coincidence, that there is another brother in the portland area with a cmt sister of the same name, then who knows, eh?

this is my question to jrefers: if this forum is indeed about critical thinking and honest, unemotionally or politcally influenced communication, what just happened here? in a forum ostensibly dedicated to reality and truth, in a thread dedicated to dealing with 'woo woo relatives" (i would be the woo woo here) the complainant decries the false beliefs and pointless activities of the woo woo...but with what? with lies? is that what this forum is about? what does this say about the search for truth? this is kinda crazy, eh? it seems that the posters here are no different than the people i met in church as a child...it doesn't matter what the truth is/isn't...people just want to believe what makes them feel comfortable, or maybe powerful. and thy will spin stories, lies, fantasies, and bind those falsehoods up in whatever kind of reason appeals to that individual, be it religion, science or political. very few people are actually willing to look at "facts" and make choices. most people just respond to stimuli with emotional knee-jerks of various colors: religion, science, politics, and mental delusions of different shades kick in to protect the fragile ego...sad. because (here comes my woo woo...) really, there is no separation, everything is just another form of...you. yes, you. look out about you...its all you. there is nothing that is not you, everything is you. treat yourself gently, with love even...you are precious.

funny thing is, i have been reading this "krishnamurti" guy...very crotchety old man, by the way. he has several ideas that just blew through me like wind..."truth is a pathless land"...there is no one way to truth: truth is. meaning that like the three blind men at the elephant, everyone's experience and perspective is slightly different, but nonetheless equally valid...and potentially enlightening for others who would bend an ear or trunk in this case...it is a waste of precious life to argue whether the elephant is indeed "...a giant wall!" or "...a huge snake!" or "...a tremendous tree!"...as the elephant is all of those things and more, but being blind, the three can only register parts of the thing in question at one time, they cannot see the whole is actually a little bit of everything they are claiming...one's fairly correct guess does not mean that another's fairly correct guess is invalid: it enhances the picture, gives more information...it doesn't negate or contradict. life is not yes/no, on/off, up/down, skeptic/believer, ...life is everything in between, within and bordering, formless, nebulous, shapeshifting and evolving.

...but don't trust me, i'm just a woo woo relative. i "believe" in craziness like "energy" and "karma" and such ridiculousness. funny, i remember thinking as a child just how is it people came to fight horrific wars and believe in simply ridiculous things like reincarnation...how? i still don't understand most of it. but some things have begun to make sense, and i do have some beliefs that people would call woo woo. thats okay. after traveling the americas, europe, asia and africa, i have yet to meet someone who i think is playing with a full deck. maybe jref will change that...hint, hint.

there must be some woo woo hating hyena out there smelling the carnage...here kitty, kitty...

[magi]

hello, my name is nyke and i am a massage therapist...
...then who knows, eh?

...this is kinda crazy, eh?

...funny thing is, i have been reading this "krishnamurti" guy...

...but don't trust me, i'm just a woo woo relative...

...after traveling the americas, europe, asia and africa, i have yet to meet someone who i think is playing with a full deck. maybe jref will change that...hint, hint.

there must be some woo woo hating hyena out there smelling the carnage...here kitty, kitty...

You know, your writing style is very familiar to me, for some reason... can't quite put my finger on it... but I have the oddest feeling of deja vu. Hm.

[Hokulele]

hello, my name is nyke and i am a massage therapist who happens to have a brother in the portland area...an erstwhile atheist. two clients of mine directed me to this website after asking me if what was posted was true...if it is about me, then, no...most of it isn't true. on the slight chance that this is a mere coincidence, that there is another brother in the portland area with a cmt sister of the same name, then who knows, eh?


So if it is you, which specific parts of his post are not true?

[Mark A. Siefert]

How do I deal with woo woo relatives?

Disowning them would be a good start.

[Foolmewunz]

hello, my name is nyke and i am a massage therapist who happens to have a brother in the portland area...an erstwhile atheist. two clients of mine directed me to this website after asking me if what was posted was true...if it is about me, then, no...most of it isn't true. on the slight chance that this is a mere coincidence, that there is another brother in the portland area with a cmt sister of the same name, then who knows, eh?

<snip>


so the upper case letters and telephones don't work in the pnw?

Use the former to assist your fellow forumites - it's just common courtesy. Use the latter to call your brother rather than speculate.

If, as has been posted already, you have problems with the posts that purportedly misrepresent you, there's a lot of material there, so please indicate where the posts are wrong.

[dnvergoddess]

thanks for the responses, people. not sure what "pnw" means tho...

before i joined this forum, i called my brother in portland to talk about the thread. if there is one thing i have experienced in my life, repeatedly, it is assuming i know something simply because i have "a little knowledge" and then finding out that some part of that knowledge was incomplete, false, didn't apply, didn't apply yet, or some other little zig in reality's zag. maybe he isn't "portland atheist", maybe there IS someone else, with my same job and name. i don't want to falsely accuse anyone, certainly not my brother, whom i do love very much.

if the post is about me personally, the parts that are false are everything but my name and profession...oh, and that i have a brother, an erstwhile atheist, in the portland area. i don't have child, would vaccinate one if i did, don't believe cell towers cause cancer or depression, am not anti-semitic nor do i believe the jews conspired to commit 9/11...i guess, if this is about me, i would prefer people bash me for the things i do believe in, actually have a challenging and "rational" "logical" effort to find truth...not just a witchhunt for woo woo's. witchhunts of any variety only speak to the hunter's own fear of oneself.

looking for woo? come and see if it is here...or even what you assume it to be...

[Hokulele]

Well, honestly it sounds like the OP (original post) isn't talking about you. The portlandatheist was much more concerned about racism, 9/11, and vaccination than energy or karma. This was originally posted over in the Conspiracy Theories area, which kind of indicates how he was thinking.

However, if there is anything in particular you would like to discuss, feel free to start another thread on the topic, and I am sure you will find plenty of people happy to join in. :)

[Foolmewunz]

thanks for the responses, people. not sure what "pnw" means tho...

before i joined this forum, i called my brother in portland to talk about the thread. if there is one thing i have experienced in my life, repeatedly, it is assuming i know something simply because i have "a little knowledge" and then finding out that some part of that knowledge was incomplete, false, didn't apply, didn't apply yet, or some other little zig in reality's zag. maybe he isn't "portland atheist", maybe there IS someone else, with my same job and name. i don't want to falsely accuse anyone, certainly not my brother, whom i do love very much.

if the post is about me personally, the parts that are false are everything but my name and profession...oh, and that i have a brother, an erstwhile atheist, in the portland area. i don't have child, would vaccinate one if i did, don't believe cell towers cause cancer or depression, am not anti-semitic nor do i believe the jews conspired to commit 9/11...i guess, if this is about me, i would prefer people bash me for the things i do believe in, actually have a challenging and "rational" "logical" effort to find truth...not just a witchhunt for woo woo's. witchhunts of any variety only speak to the hunter's own fear of oneself.

looking for woo? come and see if it is here...or even what you assume it to be...

Confused much? I know I am!
PNW is Pacific Northwest - a fairly common abbreviation.

As to the rest of your post.... Since no one here knows you, and you cannot verify from your own brother whether he is the poster or if it's about you, well, ummmm,.... What exactly are you doing here? And why would you state that you'd rather defend the "real you" when no one is attacking either the real or the imaginary you?

If none of the details are about you, and you merely want to defend some position on vibes or karma or what many of us would consider woo-ish beliefs, feel free to start a thread somewhere. Pulling this one out because someone thought maybe it was about you is a bit ridiculous, since you've said it doesn't represent your beliefs in the slightest (and even includes a detail about a child that doesn't exist).

As to what this has to do with massage therapy, I'm not sure unless there's a new variation on massage therapy. My girlfriend is a certified massage therapist, but it has nothing to do with woo - it's a physical treatment. (My girlfriend is Thai and certified in Thailand at one of the better institutes.)

[flume]

As to what this has to do with massage therapy, I'm not sure unless there's a new variation on massage therapy. My girlfriend is a certified massage therapist, but it has nothing to do with woo - it's a physical treatment. (My girlfriend is Thai and certified in Thailand at one of the better institutes.)Massage therapy might have something to do with woo in some cases. A friend of mine was studying to be a licensed massage therapist at a community college near me. The required classes included a couple that sounded questionable including one on reflexology. It could be that some clients might request a massage involving reflexology so that it would be a useful technique to learn for the job. But from what I heard, the reflexology class or subclass material was presented as fact to the students.

[portlandatheist]

Hello dnvrgodess,
Sorry I have been on back to back vacations so I haven't been watching this thread in quite some time. My sister lives in Freilassing, Germany and we just had a wonderful vacation in Glacier National Park and now she is back home. Hope that clears up any confusion around here.



the complainant decries the false beliefs and pointless activities of the woo woo...but with what? with lies? is that what this forum is about?


What lies specifically are you referring to?

two clients of mine directed me to this website after asking me if what was posted was true

I'm truly sorry for the mistaken identity. It's truly coincidental. My sister knows I post here and knows my complaints that I posted, there's nothing subversive going on in that regard.

For some reason I cannot see the text of my original post but to reiterate, the karma stuff, reincarnation, astrology, homeopathic medicine, et al doesn't concern me much because I think its relatively harmless. Conspiracy theories with racist overtones and not getting a child vaccinated concerns me much more. BTW, we had a wonderful time while she was here and she now believes an actual plane hit the Pentagon so I've made progress. She also showed great concern about my cell phone use and wish that I would give it up for my own health and well being *sigh* at least shes concerned about me.

[schlitt]

hello, my name is nyke and i am a massage therapist who happens to have a brother in the portland area...an erstwhile atheist. two clients of mine directed me to this website after asking me if what was posted was true...if it is about me, then, no...most of it isn't true. on the slight chance that this is a mere coincidence, that there is another brother in the portland area with a cmt sister of the same name, then who knows, eh?

this is my question to jrefers: if this forum is indeed about critical thinking and honest, unemotionally or politcally influenced communication, what just happened here? in a forum ostensibly dedicated to reality and truth, in a thread dedicated to dealing with 'woo woo relatives" (i would be the woo woo here) the complainant decries the false beliefs and pointless activities of the woo woo...but with what? with lies? is that what this forum is about? what does this say about the search for truth? this is kinda crazy, eh? it seems that the posters here are no different than the people i met in church as a child...it doesn't matter what the truth is/isn't...people just want to believe what makes them feel comfortable, or maybe powerful. and thy will spin stories, lies, fantasies, and bind those falsehoods up in whatever kind of reason appeals to that individual, be it religion, science or political. very few people are actually willing to look at "facts" and make choices. most people just respond to stimuli with emotional knee-jerks of various colors: religion, science, politics, and mental delusions of different shades kick in to protect the fragile ego...sad. because (here comes my woo woo...) really, there is no separation, everything is just another form of...you. yes, you. look out about you...its all you. there is nothing that is not you, everything is you. treat yourself gently, with love even...you are precious.

funny thing is, i have been reading this "krishnamurti" guy...very crotchety old man, by the way. he has several ideas that just blew through me like wind..."truth is a pathless land"...there is no one way to truth: truth is. meaning that like the three blind men at the elephant, everyone's experience and perspective is slightly different, but nonetheless equally valid...and potentially enlightening for others who would bend an ear or trunk in this case...it is a waste of precious life to argue whether the elephant is indeed "...a giant wall!" or "...a huge snake!" or "...a tremendous tree!"...as the elephant is all of those things and more, but being blind, the three can only register parts of the thing in question at one time, they cannot see the whole is actually a little bit of everything they are claiming...one's fairly correct guess does not mean that another's fairly correct guess is invalid: it enhances the picture, gives more information...it doesn't negate or contradict. life is not yes/no, on/off, up/down, skeptic/believer, ...life is everything in between, within and bordering, formless, nebulous, shapeshifting and evolving.

...but don't trust me, i'm just a woo woo relative. i "believe" in craziness like "energy" and "karma" and such ridiculousness. funny, i remember thinking as a child just how is it people came to fight horrific wars and believe in simply ridiculous things like reincarnation...how? i still don't understand most of it. but some things have begun to make sense, and i do have some beliefs that people would call woo woo. thats okay. after traveling the americas, europe, asia and africa, i have yet to meet someone who i think is playing with a full deck. maybe jref will change that...hint, hint.

there must be some woo woo hating hyena out there smelling the carnage...here kitty, kitty...


Wow.

So you;
a) Assume a thread is about you, which isnt.
b) Call the people here liars, with no evidence they are.
c) Assume the people here "beleive what they want, with no regards to facts, to feel powerful", again with no evidence
d) Condescend about searching for "facts", and then proceed to talk about your unverifiable beleifs.
e) Arrogantly and definitively tell us how we should all see life, i.e. "life is everything in between, within and bordering, formless, nebulous, shapeshifting and evolving"

You do all of these things, and yet you have the audacity to imply the people here are ignorant and biased.

Again, wow.
I applaud you for making perhaps the most arrogant, ignorant, condescending, logically flawed post i have ever seen.

[Foolmewunz]

Well, on the plus side, her clients evidently read this site. Wonder how good this will be for business?

:spjimlad: :spjimlad: :spjimlad:

[timhau]

Wow.

So you;
a) Assume a thread is about you, which isnt.

...

Again, wow.
I applaud you for making perhaps the most arrogant, ignorant, condescending, logically flawed post i have ever seen.

It certainly made me want to sing a certain Carly Simon song.

[Madalch]

It certainly made me want to sing a certain Carly Simon song.
You're so vain, you probably think this thread is about woo....

[godless dave]

hello, my name is nyke and i am a massage therapist who happens to have a brother in the portland area...an erstwhile atheist. two clients of mine directed me to this website after asking me if what was posted was true...if it is about me, then, no...most of it isn't true. on the slight chance that this is a mere coincidence, that there is another brother in the portland area with a cmt sister of the same name, then who knows, eh?

this is my question to jrefers: if this forum is indeed about critical thinking and honest, unemotionally or politcally influenced communication, what just happened here? in a forum ostensibly dedicated to reality and truth, in a thread dedicated to dealing with 'woo woo relatives" (i would be the woo woo here) the complainant decries the false beliefs and pointless activities of the woo woo...but with what? with lies?


If there were lies in the OP, then your complaint is with an individual poster, not the whole forum. But the original poster has already said that he ISN'T your brother.

is that what this forum is about? what does this say about the search for truth? this is kinda crazy, eh? it seems that the posters here are no different than the people i met in church as a child...it doesn't matter what the truth is/isn't...people just want to believe what makes them feel comfortable, or maybe powerful. and thy will spin stories, lies, fantasies, and bind those falsehoods up in whatever kind of reason appeals to that individual, be it religion, science or political.

What lies have been posted in this thread?