China EXECUTES Corrupt Food and Drug Official

[BPSCG]

I'm trying to see why this is a bad thing (http://apnews.myway.com/article/20070710/D8Q9KJ5G0.html).



BEIJING (AP) - China executed the former head of its food and drug watchdog on Tuesday for approving untested medicine in exchange for cash, the strongest signal yet from Beijing that it is serious about tackling its product safety crisis.
The execution of former State Food and Drug Administration director Zheng Xiaoyu was confirmed by state television and the official Xinhua News Agency. During Zheng's tenure from 1998 to 2005, his agency approved six medicines that turned out to be fake, and the drug-makers used falsified documents to apply for approvals, according to previous state media reports. One antibiotic caused the deaths of at least 10 people.

[Darth Rotor]

I'm trying to see why this is a bad thing (http://apnews.myway.com/article/20070710/D8Q9KJ5G0.html).
*applauds*

No white collar accountability ducking.

TIme to send a ten-gallon hat to a few Chinese officials, eh? :cool:

DR

[Katana]

Well, it certainly does send a strong message.

Is this one group of people (the "white collar" criminals) for whom the death penalty might actually be a deterrent? I wonder.

However, I think that "life" in one of China's prison camps would have been an acceptable punishment - however long the rest of his life may have lasted there.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Did they execute him by giving him the fake antibiotic he approved?

[mhaze]

I'm trying to see why this is a bad thing (http://apnews.myway.com/article/20070710/D8Q9KJ5G0.html).

Their executing the guy probably meant they did not want him talking about something or somebody. Things are never as simple as the news report, not at least coming from China...

[strathmeyer]

Well, it certainly does send a strong message.

Doesn't it say, "Instead of properly approaching the problem we're just going to overreact to the one case we already know about"?

[NoZed Avenger]

This was more about stopping the bad PR and proving that they were taking action than about justice.

[bigred]

Doesn't it say, "Instead of properly approaching the problem we're just going to overreact to the one case we already know about"?Actually it says something more like "instead of being a laughably bizarro limp-wristed system like the U.S. implements, we're going to take crime and punishment seriously."

[casebro]

I think we should do that too.

"Capital punishment for crimes against Capitalism".

Has a nice ring to it. Frinstance, wasn't Enron a crime against the very basis of our society? Didn't Ken Lay abuse us all?

But that brings up another thought, re: Chinese Communism. Seems they expect Communism within their country, but that they expect the world market to pay them for value received. To the point of executing some guy for deflating their world wide value. A bit hypocritical isn't it?

[Katana]

Doesn't it say, "Instead of properly approaching the problem we're just going to overreact to the one case we already know about"?

This was more about stopping the bad PR and proving that they were taking action than about justice.

Actually it says something more like "instead of being a laughably bizarro limp-wristed system like the U.S. implements, we're going to take crime and punishment seriously."


Or some combination of all of the above? :con2:

[ImaginalDisc]

This solves what, exactly? China has a poor system for controlling the quality of their goods, so they kill one guy as a demonstration of what, how little they're doing to handle the situation?

[BPSCG]

Their executing the guy probably meant they did not want him talking about something or somebody. Things are never as simple as the news report, not at least coming from China...Yup. In the absence of a free press with real investigative powers, all you know is what the government tells you. And we all know governments would never lie or hold back information that might make them look bad.

Story harkens back to something Mark Twain wrote about the French railway systems. When a train derailed, they executed the guy in charge of the switch, on the theory that "it was better to let one innocent man die than a hundred."

[mhaze]

Yup. In the absence of a free press with real investigative powers, all you know is what the government tells you. And we all know governments would never lie or hold back information that might make them look bad.

Story harkens back to something Mark Twain wrote about the French railway systems. When a train derailed, they executed the guy in charge of the switch, on the theory that "it was better to let one innocent man die than a hundred."

That's a good quote from Twain.

For those who are not aware of it, China has now about a trillion dollars of bad debt internally, largely due to banks funding projects from corporations. And the reason is that the boards of directors of those corporations are ...... all the old Party members. Now suppose you are a banker, and you are approached by these powerful figures and asked politely to fund a project. Hard to say no. Impossible. Thus, bad projects occur every day. Every now and then a scapegoat is useful.

a very brief glimpse at a very complex and subtle country in the midst of incredible change.

[Foolmewunz]

Their executing the guy probably meant they did not want him talking about something or somebody. Things are never as simple as the news report, not at least coming from China...

Oh, well, here we go again....

Actually, things are as simple as they seem in this case. You need to understand the Chinese values to understand the action. Wolfman has it posted in another thread (the Grenard thread on poisoning pets 'n people) but I'm a lazy bastage, so I'll put it in my own words to an extent.

Executing bureaucratic or white collar criminals is not uncommon in China. There is considerable value placed on the concept of "community", a major throwback to Confucianism, and when you scale the crimes of a corrupt official, violating the public (or party, if you will) trust puts the value of his life right around that of a tree slug. (Actually, they'd make a a tree slug into a tasty main course, so at this point he had less value!)

This made the news in the west because of the discussions abounding on the safety of Chinese food. Did they react harshly? Yes. Did they over-react? No, not by Chinese standards. You guys don't get the news of all the executions over here. They executed a provincial official last year for embezzling the equivalent of 30,000 U$ (or some equally ludicrous low number). There have been corrupt officials involved in several of the illegally operated coal mine disasters who've also been executed.

There has been an almost daily commentary in The People's Daily (the house organ of the part/government) to codify the criminalization of corruption and bribe taking. There is no single law on the books, so they have to apply various parts of the law. In the case of the Food and Drug guy, I believe he was tried and executed on the foundation of a law that was only passed a couple of months ago in reaction to the tainted pet food furor.

The conspiracy theory aspect (that they executed him to keep him quiet) is cute, but doesn't hold water. He would've been killed resisting arrest if that was the case. Instead he went to the Chinese version of a trial. Far too much could've been revealed in the period of incarceration and trial if he was a danger.

[SteveGrenard]

The guy was a mass murderer. You can wear a white collar and go to work every day in an office and still be responsible for killing thousands of people
if you take payoffs to look the other way on drug and food safety.

Given China's problems of late with this very topic the execution should send a strong message that corruption impacting on drug and food safety will not be tolerated. Good riddance to the guy. This was yet one more time the death sentence was more than justified. I congratulate the Chinese government and courts for their swift and decisive action on this case.

[BPSCG]

Ah, here it is; from Innocents Abroad:

No, they have no railroad accidents to speak of in France. But why? Because when one occurs, somebody has to hang for it! 12.1 (http://etext.virginia.edu/etcbin/twain2www?specfile=/lv6/workspace/railton/texts/public/twainpub.o2w&act=text&offset=4527869&textreg=1&query=better+that+one+innocent#n12.1) Not hang, maybe, but be punished at least with such vigor of emphasis as to make negligence a thing to be shuddered at by railroad officials for many a day thereafter. "No blame attached to the officers" -- that lying and disaster-breeding verdict so common to our softhearted juries is seldom rendered in France. If the trouble occurred in the conductor's department, that officer must suffer if his subordinate cannot be proven guilty; if in the engineer's department and the case be similar, the engineer must answer.

(12.1 They go on the principle that it is better that one innocent man should suffer than five hundred.)
But then Twain, ever the skeptic, suggests that it might not in fact be true...
The Old Travelers -- those delightful parrots who have "been here before" and know more about the country than Louis Napoleon knows now or ever will know -- tell us these things, and we believe them because they are pleasant things to believe and because they are plausible and savor of the rigid subjection to law and order which we behold about us everywhere...

But still I love the Old Travelers. I love them for their witless platitudes, for their supernatural ability to bore, for their delightful asinine vanity, for their luxuriant fertility of imagination, for their startling, their brilliant, their overwhelming mendacity!

[Miss Anthrope]

Well, now we know what China meant when they said "We guarantee our products".

[Solitaire]

China Executes Former Food And Drug Regulator (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/11/business/worldbusiness/11execute-web.html?ex=1341806400&en=23cb837f965c4ae7&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss)

BEIJING, July 10 — China executed its former top food and drug regulator today for taking bribes to approve untested medicine as Beijing scrambled to show that it is serious about improving the safety of Chinese products.


Uhm. :eye-poppi

[Darth Rotor]

Uhm. :eye-poppi
DOH! (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=86909)

It's even on the first page. :cool:

DR

[Wolfman]

Executions like this are quite commonplace these days; the Chinese gov't is in the middle of a very major crack-down on corruption. I'm not going to say that I necessarily agree with the severity of the punishment (I think the gov't applies capital punishment far too liberally), but it is quite arguably effective.

Capital punishment for murder tends to be less effective as a preventative measure, because many murders are crimes of passion; tons of studies in this regard have shown that not only does capital punishment not decrease murder rates, in some cases it may even increase them (since a murderer who knows he's gonna' get the death penalty anyway has nothing to lose by killing more people).

However, there was an article in the Chinese news a few weeks ago (I will try to find a link) that showed that in regards to corruption, capital punishment was a far more effective deterrent, since it is almost always done with premeditation and careful deliberation. In fact, a very significant number of corrupt officials have come forward voluntarily to admit their crimes (and in return, get jail sentences instead of death penalty).

The standard in China for the death penalty in cases of corruption basically falls into two categories: those acts of corruption that lead directly or indirectly to the deaths of others; and those acts of corruption that "cause damage to China" (similar to treason, but not quite the same...you might consider it more like sabotage).

In the former case, you have situations such as this food and drug official, whose corruption led to the death of others because of fake/dangerous products, or gov't officials during a major flood who pocketed emergency funds for their own use, leading to the deaths of others because of inadequate preparation or response. In the latter case, the food and drug official hit a double bonus, in that his actions also led to damage to China's international reputation, and economic damage to the Chinese food and drug industry in general.

China's really in a no-win situation from the perspective of avoiding international criticism/condemnation. If they don't crack down really hard like this, then corruption will continue to be a huge problem. If they do crack down, then they are accused of human rights violations.

The gov't's view on it, in this regard, is very pragmatic. Doing nothing guarantees criticism, and no improvement. Draconian actions guarantee criticism, but also lead to a significant decrease in corruption. From that perspective, the latter is a better choice.

And before some accuse me of again being an apologist for the Chinese gov't, I'm personally opposed to their frequent use of the death penalty; I think that sticking these people away in a prison for the rest of their lives would be more than adequate punishment. I'm simply explaining the Chinese perspective on this.

Oh...and actions like this do get praise and approval from the overwhelming majority of Chinese citizens, also. If this were put to a democratic vote/poll, I can guarantee that you'd have an overwhelming vote not only to continue, but to crack down even harder. The Chinese people in general have very little empathy for corrupt officials, and would happily see most of 'em with a bullet in the head.

[SteveGrenard]

China's really in a no-win situation from the perspective of avoiding international criticism/condemnation. If they don't crack down really hard like this, then corruption will continue to be a huge problem. If they do crack down, then they are accused of human rights violations.

Be sure and let us know when China is cited for human rights violation for executing a man who is, arguably, responsible for thousands of deaths due to fake/tainted drugs and food. Me thinks it was the accused, now deceased former official who was trampling on human rights and if he were not found guilty of a capital crime the human right's advocates would be screaming about that.

You will always have the death sentence opponents. We have them in the U.S., they are everywhere. The reason life in prison would not work for this guy is the fact at some point he would've bribed his way out and dissapeared
after his case was forgotten. How many murderous despots have bought sanctuary and safety in other countries? His friends/family would've sent a limo and a chopper for him if necessary. He is best off dead, executed and that goes for anyone who thinks they can follow in his footsteps and get away with it.

[Solitaire]

DOH! (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=86909)

It's even on the first page. :cool:

DR

I wonder why the find feature didn't find it? :confused:

Oh, well. Ignore this thread then.

[casebro]

Well, now we know what China meant when they said "We guarantee our products".

Do you know, was that a Lifetime Guarantee?

[Wolfman]

Be sure and let us know when China is cited for human rights violation for executing a man who is, arguably, responsible for thousands of deaths due to fake/tainted drugs and food. Me thinks it was the accused, now deceased former official who was trampling on human rights and if he were not found guilty of a capital crime the human right's advocates would be screaming about that.
While I wish that were true, the actual fact of the matter is that a significant portion of "human rights" issues in China have nothing whatsoever to do with human rights. It has to do with political activism that seeks to demonize the Chinese gov't in any way they can, and where "human rights" are simply a convenient excuse.

People are dying because of corrupt Chinese gov't officials? "Human Rights!" Those evil Communist officials don't give a damn about individuals, don't care about human rights. The Chinese gov't is executing corrupt gov't officials? "Human Rights!" The people they're executing must have secrets that the gov't is trying to cover up! The people they are executing are just minor players, scapegoats for the real higher-up officials who are responsible!"

Think I'm exaggerating? This thread itself already has some of these accusations, before I even said a word.

[BPSCG]

"Human Rights!" The people they're executing must have secrets that the gov't is trying to cover up! The people they are executing are just minor players, scapegoats for the real higher-up officials who are responsible!"The government may or may not be at fault here, and it may or may not be giving the entire story, but in the absence of a free press that can do real investigative reporting without government interference, is there any way to know for sure?

[Wolfman]

The government may or may not be at fault here, and it may or may not be giving the entire story, but in the absence of a free press that can do real investigative reporting without government interference, is there any way to know for sure?
That's a very legitimate concern; and I'm certain that there are cases of abuse of power that take place (in fact, I have personal knowledge of some such cases).

But the fact remains, the Chinese gov't is in a damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't dilemma. I've been here 14 years, I've been able to see the transitions taking place. When I came here in 1993, gov't corruption was the standard. It was extremely common-place, an accepted practice. Punishment of corrupt officials was almost unheard of.

Four years ago, the Chinese gov't began a major anti-corruption campaign, one that has grown in strength and impact every year since then. More and more corrupt officials be imprisoned or executed; more and more gov't officials who now refuse to take bribes or get involved in illegal activities. And, in my opinion, this is a very good thing for pretty well everyone involved (except, obviously, the corrupt gov't officials).

Things are improving in China...very significant improvements. This isn't just the opinion of some naive outsider, it is the opinion of by far the majority of Chinese people as well. No, China is not as free as the U.S. or Canada; and no, China does not have the same amount of economic development as the U.S. or Canada; and that is why many Chinese choose to emigrate to those countries. But China today compared to China 10 years ago, or 20 years ago, is a hell of a lot better...and continuing to move in the right direction.

So yeah, criticize the gov't for its abuses; but give recognition where recognition is due. Gov't abuse of human rights is reprehensible; but equally reprehensible is those who callously use human rights purely as an excuse to further a purely political agenda...and who don't actually give a damn about the people involved.

ETA: My apologies, this is more of a personal issue for me, as it is one I face on a regular basis, and may not be entirely suited to this specific discussion.

[Darth Rotor]

The government may or may not be at fault here, and it may or may not be giving the entire story, but in the absence of a free press that can do real investigative reporting without government interference, is there any way to know for sure?
Beeps:

Even with a free press that can do real investigative reporting without government interference, is there any way to know for sure?

Geraldo and O'Reilly for fifty centavos, Alex. :p

DR

[BPSCG]

Beeps:

Even with a free press that can do real investigative reporting without government interference, is there any way to know for sure?

Geraldo and O'Reilly for fifty centavos, Alex. :p

DRWoodward and Bernstein right back at you for a hundred. :p

FWIW, I'm not disputing that China is, probably in every single way, a thousand times better a place to live in than it was twenty years ago.

[Darth Rotor]

Woodward and Bernstein right back at you for a hundred. :p

FWIW, I'm not disputing that China is, probably in every single way, a thousand times better a place to live in than it was twenty years ago.
Duke Lacrosse Media Feeding Frenzy for two hundred, and the daily double. :p

China is what it is, of course, and shall do its thing China style. Something about the 800 lb gorilla.

DR

[BPSCG]

Duke Lacrosse Media Feeding Frenzy for two hundred, and the daily double. :p :biggrin:

Bloggers in pajamas for ten thousand. And the final Jeopardy answer is: They busted Dan Rather's phony Texas Air National Guard papers 60 Minutes story and made the MSM realize someone was fact-checking their asses.

Which only goes to show that every power needs to be accountable to someone.

China is what it is, of course, and shall do its thing China style. Truer words were never spoken.

[Foolmewunz]

Duke Lacrosse Media Feeding Frenzy for two hundred, and the daily double. :p

China is what it is, of course, and shall do its thing China style. Something about the 800 lb gorilla.

DR

In that vein, and maybe a "good" derail.... Interesting to see John Howard, of all people, in China this week stating that it's understandable (he didn't actually say the word "good" but he certainly implied it) that China should be building up its military in light of their economic success and the rise in expectations of the Chinese people. It was a bit of realpolitik you would've never heard ten years ago.

I wonder how "the west" would handle the nuclear issue if China hadn't gone nuclear decades ago. Would Howard be stating that it was understandable that China would want a bomb in view of their overwhelming economic growth?

[Foolmewunz]

That's a good quote from Twain.

For those who are not aware of it, China has now about a trillion dollars of bad debt internally, largely due to banks funding projects from corporations. And the reason is that the boards of directors of those corporations are ...... all the old Party members. Now suppose you are a banker, and you are approached by these powerful figures and asked politely to fund a project. Hard to say no. Impossible. Thus, bad projects occur every day. Every now and then a scapegoat is useful.

a very brief glimpse at a very complex and subtle country in the midst of incredible change.


MHAZE, China also holds a trillion in foreign currency/instruments, so this is a balance, somewhat.

The banks got bailed out by government last year to the tune of 360 billion, and it barely made a dent in the economy. It also served to open banking up further to the international community, including foreign investments now held in the Chinese majors. One of the major impacts is that the banks have a much broader responsibility to shareholders and the "old boy" deals are getting scrutinized by loan committees and not just the top guy.

A good example is the 2008 Olympics. Several of the grandiose schemes were scaled down because they were just too expensive. Still, Beijing is spending over 300 billion on the games... but they're using the games as a lure for investment and future tourist bucks. In the long haul, Beijing will probably profit from the olympics - but not from the games, themselves. Rather, it'll be from the ensuing tours/tourists. Asia is a hotspot for business travel, and it's astonishing how many people skip Beijing, one of the great attractions. That'll change during and after the Olympics absent a huge catasprophe of some kind.

Tourism bucks are huge. Astonishingly, Tourism and Entertainment is the top employment segment where I am. My folks would all think it's Shipping (we're second), and many outsiders would figure it to be Banking/Finance, but it's the entertainment and leisure buck that everyone's shooting for. (The HK SAR government has pegged its currency to the greenback and are quite content that the RMB is at a 10% premium.... whole generations of Chinese weren't allowed to come here and now they're filling the hotels.)

ETA: Weird meandering post.... not enough coffee yet, this morning.

[Iamme]

I'm trying to see why this is a bad thing (http://apnews.myway.com/article/20070710/D8Q9KJ5G0.html).

Doesn't surprise me coming from a country that has flattened people like pancakes with a tank.

[Wolfman]

Doesn't surprise me coming from a country that has flattened people like pancakes with a tank.
...as opposed to a country that shot people and set dogs to attack them just because of the color of their skin...or that engaged in wholesale genocide of many of their indigenous peoples...

...how quickly we forget. People in the U.S. didn't get their freedom and equality peacefully. They got it in the face of tremendous persecution, violence, and abuse from their government. And, sadly, the Chinese are having to face a similar process.

America started as a country of freedom and equality -- if you were a white male. A country of democracy and human rights -- if you were a white male. But terms like "democracy", "freedom", "equality", etc., meant nothing if you were a female, or a black man, or an Asian. Even beginning from a fundamental basis of democracy and freedom, the U.S. still went through these struggles, and committed these abuses.

Why then, do we expect China -- which has never had democracy or freedom as part of its culture in 5000 years of history -- so somehow magically skip that process, and transform itself without struggle into what the U.S. could not do without terrible abuses?

No, again, I'm not defending these abuses. I have close friends here whose family members were killed or injured in Tiananmen Square. But in looking at China, lets not forget or ignore our own countries' histories...and remember that we got where we are today on the backs of others who fought and died to get the freedoms we take for granted today. People were right to criticize the U.S. gov't when it abused blacks, or denied women the right to vote, or shoved Japanese off into labor camps and took away all their property. And change did come about, slowly, that resulted in the freedoms that Americans enjoy today.

And people are right to criticize the abuses in China...but from the perspective of "we've gone through the same thing", not from the perspective of "we would never do those terrible things".

[mhaze]

Foolme, Wolfman.

This is a very good thread.

[boloboffin]

Lou Dobbs was laughing as he announced this yesterday. That's what really sent chills up and down my spine.

[Elizabeth I]

Nominated:
...as opposed to a country that shot people and set dogs to attack them just because of the color of their skin...or that engaged in wholesale genocide of many of their indigenous peoples...

...how quickly we forget. People in the U.S. didn't get their freedom and equality peacefully. They got it in the face of tremendous persecution, violence, and abuse from their government. And, sadly, the Chinese are having to face a similar process.

America started as a country of freedom and equality -- if you were a white male. A country of democracy and human rights -- if you were a white male. But terms like "democracy", "freedom", "equality", etc., meant nothing if you were a female, or a black man, or an Asian. Even beginning from a fundamental basis of democracy and freedom, the U.S. still went through these struggles, and committed these abuses.

Why then, do we expect China -- which has never had democracy or freedom as part of its culture in 5000 years of history -- so somehow magically skip that process, and transform itself without struggle into what the U.S. could not do without terrible abuses?

No, again, I'm not defending these abuses. I have close friends here whose family members were killed or injured in Tiananmen Square. But in looking at China, lets not forget or ignore our own countries' histories...and remember that we got where we are today on the backs of others who fought and died to get the freedoms we take for granted today. People were right to criticize the U.S. gov't when it abused blacks, or denied women the right to vote, or shoved Japanese off into labor camps and took away all their property. And change did come about, slowly, that resulted in the freedoms that Americans enjoy today.

And people are right to criticize the abuses in China...but from the perspective of "we've gone through the same thing", not from the perspective of "we would never do those terrible things".

[Caius Textor]

But the fact remains, the Chinese gov't is in a damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't dilemma.

I´ll take this a wee bit out of context to say: this is the real problem, right?

China simply isn´t "one of us". It decided to follow another way to rule itself (after centuries of foreign destructive and parasitic influence) and not to be an economical ally of the West. Now that it is quickly growing to became the next economical superpower, everybody is, quitle frankly, getting their pants dirty with brown stuff.

Bashing China has nothing to do with "standing up to human rights". It´s political (in the dirty sense) from top to bottom. And the politics behind it is intended to have an economical impact; China is Evil/Godless/Communist, so I won´t buy their products. China is a dictatorship that doesn´t have quality control, so I won´t buy their toys. China doesn´t have a "free press" so I won´t fly Air China.

-----------

Brazil has a 500 year-old problem with corruption and the parasitic influence of a favoured minority. We haven´t had a year free of MAJOR corruption scandals for more than 2 decades, and corrupt politicians tend to be elected again after some ethically dubious manouvres.
We supposedly have a "free press".

When I see this, I wish I were Chinese. Many of my countrymen share this feeling.

[Wolfman]

Caius,

I partly agree...but not sure that I agree entirely. Obviously, there are those whose criticisms are politically motivated, who care little about the actual human right situation except as a tool to further their own ends/arguments. The articles I see about China in the western media frequently distort or exaggerate information in order to give as negative an impression as possible.

But on the other hand, we do get people who use the "their culture is different, we have no right to criticize them" argument -- and I'd disagree with that just as wholeheartedly. There are problems and abuses in China, and I sincerely believe that these things do need to change/improve.

I have done a fair bit of work with the Chinese gov't, including a number of higher-level gov't officials. I have been a consultant to the national education committee, giving advice on educational reforms. I was a consultant to the Mayor of Beijing during their bid for the 2008 Olympic Games. I have never been silent in my criticism of some of the more serious problems and abuses that I see in China, and they are fully aware of my sentiments and principles in this regard.

However, I always frame my criticisms in terms of "my country has already gone through this process", and that I believe the Chinese gov't is moving in the right direction. I emphasize that I want to work with the government to bring about these changes; not that I think the gov't needs to be removed or replaced.

And in that context, the gov't is not only open to my criticisms, but I often find gov't officials agreeing with what I'm saying, and giving their own ideas about how best to bring about positive change.

No country should have carte blanche to do whatever they want, simply because they are "a different culture". I believe very strongly that there are certain principles which should apply equally to all people, and all governments, everywhere. And I believe that taking an active role of criticizing such abuses, and pushing for positive reform/change is the basic responsibility of anyone who claims to be concerned about human rights.

But I don't believe that any real, positive change can take place without first having a real understanding of what the situation is -- not the picture presented by those who distort information to fit their own agenda. And that's what I try to do, in this and in other posts about China. Not to defend the abuses here, or to deny them; but to give the broader context, and to hopefully the best way to engage with the current leadership to actually bring about positive change for the Chinese people.

[Caius Textor]

But on the other hand, we do get people who use the "their culture is different, we have no right to criticize them" argument -- and I'd disagree with that just as wholeheartedly. There are problems and abuses in China, and I sincerely believe that these things do need to change/improve.


Ha, well, I hope my post didn´t give the impression that I think like that. That is Cultural Relativism, a doctrine that I utterly despise.

China has lot´s of problems, like every other non-Scandinavian country. But I cannot help to feel optimistic with the fact that those problems are being addressed instead of covered up or ignored, which seems to be the case in the majority of the Western world (it certainly is the case here).

Sorry Wolfman, I guess we are in agreement again. :)

[neutrino_cannon]

Leaving aside questions about the propriety of the execution, am I to understand that the death penalty is routinely employed in white collar crime cases in China?

If so, are there any other countries wherein this is the case, and do any of these have similarly strong economies?

[Wolfman]

China executes more people every year than all the rest of the world combined.

That is, if you only count official executions committed after conducting a trial. If you count people killed by gov't forces in civil wars, or in "police activities" (such as roaming death squads), the numbers are quite different.

[Foolmewunz]

Leaving aside questions about the propriety of the execution, am I to understand that the death penalty is routinely employed in white collar crime cases in China?

If so, are there any other countries wherein this is the case, and do any of these have similarly strong economies?

In fact, a junior member of the same government department - who worked with the head guy in the bribery - was also executed.

Yes, it's quite common to execute white collar criminals. It's also quite common to execute everyday garden variety felons, particularly recidivist criminals.

China's total in 2006 was 2/3 of the global total of executions. (Roughly 1000 versus roughly 1500.)

[Psi Baba]

But that brings up another thought, re: Chinese Communism. Seems they expect Communism within their country, but that they expect the world market to pay them for value received. To the point of executing some guy for deflating their world wide value. A bit hypocritical isn't it?
I found it hypocritical as well but for an entirely different reason, being that China is notorious for fake medicine, or as it's more commonly known, "Traditional Chinese Medicine." This quaint sounding name for quackery includes the absolutely horrendous practice of bear farming (http://www.animalsasia.org/index.php?module=2&menupos=7&submenupos=2&lg=en), in which bears are kept alive--in excruciating pain--in order to extract bile from their gall bladders. Bear farming is practiced on a commercial scale. The Chinese government, rather than outlawing the practice altogether, simply sets "guidelines" for how it should be done. :eek: Nice.

Apparently fake food (http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/asiapcf/07/12/cardboard.food.ap/index.html) is traditional, as well.

[Darth Rotor]

In fact, a junior member of the same government department - who worked with the head guy in the bribery - was also executed.

Yes, it's quite common to execute white collar criminals. It's also quite common to execute everyday garden variety felons, particularly recidivist criminals.

China's total in 2006 was 2/3 of the global total of executions. (Roughly 1000 versus roughly 1500.)
May I presume that the Pope's protestations were ignored in Beijing?

DR

[Darth Rotor]

Leaving aside questions about the propriety of the execution, am I to understand that the death penalty is routinely employed in white collar crime cases in China?

If so, are there any other countries wherein this is the case, and do any of these have similarly strong economies?
Ken Lay and Jack Abramoff may also have an interest in this question. :jaw-dropp

DR

[SteveGrenard]

Ken Lay and Jack Abramoff may also have an interest in this question. :jaw-dropp
DR


Well not Ken Lay. He has escaped the hangman's noose, he is dead already; unless you are implying they execute people in China even if they are already dead.

[SteveGrenard]

I found it hypocritical as well but for an entirely different reason, being that China is notorious for fake medicine, or as it's more commonly known, "Traditional Chinese Medicine." This quaint sounding name for quackery includes the absolutely horrendous practice of bear farming (http://www.animalsasia.org/index.php?module=2&menupos=7&submenupos=2&lg=en), in which bears are kept alive--in excruciating pain--in order to extract bile from their gall bladders. Bear farming is practiced on a commercial scale. The Chinese government, rather than outlawing the practice altogether, simply sets "guidelines" for how it should be done. :eek: Nice.

Apparently fake food (http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/asiapcf/07/12/cardboard.food.ap/index.html) is traditional, as well.


They don't even farm the endangered snake species they use for this silly product:


Snakes are widely believed to possess medicinal qualities and the wine is often advertised to cure anything from farsightedness to hair loss to as well as increased sexual performance. According to the Golden Pheasant Brand Snake Wines:

The snakes are immersed in 100% rice wine in special glass bottles and then they are sealed and stored in a cellar for five years... The wines, containing substances necessary for the human body, are high quality tonics. Regularly drinking appropriate quantities of the wines can moisturize your skin, improve your appetite, and strengthen your bones, tendons and muscles. They are used to treat general fatigue, hair loss, migraine headaches, rheumatism, and neurasthenia. The tonic wines do not cause dryness syndrome, such as constipation, thirst, dryness of the throat and nose. People of all ages and both sexes, including pregnant women, can drink them in four seasons.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snake_wine

Many of their allegedly effective herbals contain genuinely dangerous genuine drugs. For male sexual prowess let us not forget Shen (Chen var) Su, a herbal containing a digitalis like product that regularly kills male users who think they should swallow it instead of rub it on. This product is banned in the U.S. after people here died from using it but labeled in Chinese it constantly sneaks in anyway.

[Meadmaker]

Of course, they could try getting rid of corrupt officials by letting people vote them out of office.

Nahh...

[Caius Textor]

Of course, they could try getting rid of corrupt officials by letting people vote them out of office.

Nahh...

They just keep coming back. It´s practically useless.

[Foolmewunz]

They just keep coming back. It´s practically useless.

As has been proved numerous times in such bastions of democracy as.....

Texas
Florida
Taiwan
Japan
The Philippines
England
New York
Zimbabwe
Chicago (say no more!!)
Louisiana
Thailand


Ooooh, those nasty Chinese who don't elect their officials! No wonder they're all corrupt.

[BPSCG]

Of course, they could try getting rid of corrupt officials by letting people vote them out of office.

Nahh...Well, the guy China executed was apparently the equivalent of the US commisioner of the Food and Drug Administration, who's appointed by the president, with the advice and consent of the Senate. Not much chance of voting the FDA commissioner out even in the US.

[SteveGrenard]

As has been proved numerous times in such bastions of democracy as.....

Texas
Florida
Taiwan
Japan
The Philippines
England
New York
Zimbabwe
Chicago (say no more!!)
Louisiana
Thailand


Ooooh, those nasty Chinese who don't elect their officials! No wonder they're all corrupt.

You forgot that bastion of American independance and liberty, Boston, where Mayor Curly was re-elected from his jail cell.

[Foolmewunz]

You forgot that bastion of American independance and liberty, Boston, where Mayor Curly was re-elected from his jail cell.

Actually, I just picked democracies at random, and tried to spread them around a bit.... Appointed or elected, you'll find corrupt officials and office-holders everywhere.

[Joppy]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070719/ap_on_re_as/china_cardboard_buns;_ylt=Ap5x476qhdsf9nyboScM1LNv aA8F

The buns reports turns out to have been faked the article states. The reporter has been arrested. On the news tonight there was a segment on this. They interviewed a western jounalist talking about censorship in China and this arrest is an attempt to coverup.
I don't really think there is a reason to cover up this and not all the recent strings of reports of fake foods. I am just curious what posters in China thinks.

[Wolfman]

Its hard to say for sure. Is the gov't capable of arresting the reporter and simply saying it was all faked, even if it actually was true? Certainly.

But, in this case, are there reasons to suspect the veracity of the original report? Yes, there are. On Chinese TV, they have shown unedited versions of the original recordings this reporter made. In these videos, the reporter is clearly heard instructing the people what to do, and what to say. Some of these clips are longer versions of clips that were actually used in the original news broadcast, and would be virtually impossible to fake.

My take on it? I think that this problem does exist, and the reporter knew it. But he didn't want to take a chance on what people would be willing to tell him or show him if he just went to them on his own; so instead he staged the whole situation, packaged the story in a manner that he could control.

Its quite possible (I'd say likely) that much of the information in his report is accurate; but also quite likely that the report itself was staged, manipulated by the reporter, and was not the investigative report that he claimed it was.

This is, in fact, a common method used by TV stations in China. They determine the facts of the case, and then will stage a 'report' that appears to uncover or reveal the information, but in fact is all scripted and controlled by the producers. This isn't even considered 'wrong'...in that the information they are presenting is technically accurate.

But in this case, when the gov't already faces so many criticisms over safety and quality issues, it gives them an excuse to arrest the reporter, and declare the whole thing a fraud.