[Moderated]The Holocaust never happened!

[Belz...]

Gravy, when you say the Germans were systematically killing the civilian population what exactly do you mean and why would they do this?

Evil.

Just asking questions.

Sure thing, MaG. Whatever you need to sleep at night.

[milesalpha]

The US only entered the war because they were duped. Otherwise they would have not entered. It also does not seem that Hitler wanted global conquest nor even had the desire to topple England as he viewed their cooperation as necessary.



You have got to be kidding me. The US was duped into entering the war by Hitler, you do know he declared war on them and not vice versa? As for elaborating on Hitler's offer of peace (not land, PEACE, unless you count his guarantee of the Empire, and you shouldn't) after the fall of Poland, and then of France, would you have believed him? Hitler was well aware than Germany was not prepared for a long term war, and eventually he would have to turn east for his lebensraum. Look up how Hitler felt about the concept of a 2 front war. Hence his "peace' offer.

[kageki]

Can you spell "Czechoslovakia"? (Well, probably you cannot.) OK, how about "Austria"?

Heck, how about "Germany." That was the country the Nazis most successfully destroyed.

But it was only part of Czechoslovakia right? The land that was lost? Austria does seem like it was a straight take over though.

How was it really inside Germany? Hitler might have hated non-Aryans, but he also seem to have taken good care of his people.

[twinstead]

MaGZ why are you bothering asking WHY? What you should be doing is disproving the HUGE amount of evidence that the Holocaust did indeed happen as advertised.

[Hokulele]

Yes they did round up people into concentration camps primarily to be used for labor. Why did the US round up Japanese-Americans in concentration camps?


As a second generation Japanese-American, I just want to note that the Japanese Internment camps in the Western US were not the same as the Nazi concentration camps.

Yes, they were terrible, but there is no good comparison between the two.

[AMTMAN]

But it was only part of Czechoslovakia right? The land that was lost? Austria does seem like it was a straight take over though.

How was it really inside Germany? Hitler might have hated non-Aryans, but he also seem to have taken good care of his people.

Killing those that were opposed to you and leading the German nation to ruin is not what I would call "taking good care of his people".

[MaGZ]

Himmler’s first interview with an American journalist.
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v18/v18n5p50_Stoddard.html


"That policy," replied Himmler, "can best be expressed in the words of our Führer: 'To give lasting peace to our eastern borders.' For centuries, that region and others in eastern Europe have been chronically disturbed by jarring minorities hopelessly mixed up with one another. What we are now trying to do is to separate these quarreling elements in just, constructive fashion. We have voluntarily withdrawn our German minorities form places like the Baltic states, and we shall do the same in northern Italy. We are even marking out a place for the Jews where they may live quietly unto themselves. Between us and the Poles we seek to fashion a proper racial boundary. Of course, we are going about it slowly -- you can't move multitudes of people with their livestock and personal belongings like pawns on a chessboard. But that is the objective we ultimately hope to attain."

[MaGZ]

My grandfather was a british soldier who served nearly all the war in a german POW camp. He said they were the most evil scum he had ever seen. His word is good enough for me.

I thought British servicemen were treated fairly well in the POW camps. At least they were not keep out in the open as Eisenhower did with the German prisoners he held at the end of the war.

See Other Losses by James Bacque.

[kageki]

I'll pass on such suffocating details for now. I see nizkor and I see zionist propaganda.



A word about gassing. Because of the destruction of camps like Aushwitz, there is no way to know the extent of this story. Regardless, I know of no historian who is interested in quibbling between gassing, hanging, shooting, working to death, starving to death or confining someone in conditions that lead to an inevitable death. The method only comes up when dealing with specific elements, for example the Einsatzgruppen.

So it seems gassing by Zyklon B is not even technically possible. Einsatzgruppen is admittedly poorly documented. What does that word even mean? What did they really do and how many did they kill?


Only the Slavs can really be put in the same category of sheer persecution by the Nazis, but even then the Jewish persecution was much more enduring. All of the victims are remembered by history, as anyone who has read any real works on the Nazis well knows.


Why is that?

What makes the Jews more enduring when more Slavs died and is documented that 40 million were planned to be executed? However it is disputed that the same could be said about the Jews and it turns out it's possibly not even close to 6 million.

Why don't we ever read about everyone else?


Do the Jews as a political body use the Holocaust to further their cause? Maybe, but does it affect the real history (as opposed to pop culture. The odd legend of a heroic Custer was kept alive for decades after it had been exposed by historians. The same holds true of Nazi Germany, a good example being "they made the trains run on time" inferring the Nazis were an efficient bunch, they weren't).


They absolutely use it for political reasons. The Israelis still ask for money from the Germans, Swiss and have even accused the Vatican. It's our tax money building those museums.

What do you think Israel is about?

The Holocaust is debated precisely because of the weight of the subject and it's massive consequences.

[AMTMAN]

I thought British servicemen were treated fairly well in the POW camps. At least they were not keep out in the open as Eisenhower did with the German prisoners he held at the end of the war.

See Other Losses by James Bacque.

Yet another display of your ignorance. Those captured by the allies faired much better than those cpatured by the aixs. To try and imply otherwise is dishonest to the extreme.

[beachnut]

Himmler’s first interview with an American journalist.
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v18/v18n5p50_Stoddard.html
You ideas are pathetic, so the Jews area was the crematoria! . You are just a NAZI with idiot ideas like most NAZIs. You pass on NAZI junk without understanding anything. Pathetic NAZIs like you are too busy labeling everyone else a subhuman, and you missed you are the only ones who qualify.

[kageki]

As a second generation Japanese-American, I just want to note that the Japanese Internment camps in the Western US were not the same as the Nazi concentration camps.

Yes, they were terrible, but there is no good comparison between the two.

That is only so because we are told that Jews were gassed in gas chambers and shoved into ovens which is what is being disputed.

Well I like to know then what really happened in the the US. Were they not forced into labor and such as was the case in Germany?

[kageki]

Welcome to the forum kageki.

Thanks MaGZ :)

[AMTMAN]

The Holocaust is debated precisely because of the weight of the subject and it's massive consequences.

The Holocaust is "debated" becasue certain people know that if they admit it happened it would be an admission that Jews were victims.

[kageki]

Yet another display of your ignorance. Those captured by the allies faired much better than those cpatured by the aixs. To try and imply otherwise is dishonest to the extreme.

Well maybe some sources and critical analysis might shed some light. You don't hear much about this growing up in the States.

[Hokulele]

That is only so because we are told that Jews were gassed in gas chambers and shoved into ovens which is what is being disputed.


Not just told, there was a great deal of physical evidence as well (personal jewelery, etc.)

Well I like to know then what really happened in the the US. Were they not forced into labor and such as was the case in Germany?


No, they most certainly weren't forced into labor. The worst punishment they faced was the loss of US citizenship (which is actually highly unconstitutional and was the basis for the reparation trials). You seem to be confusing the Japanese internment camps in the USA with the Japanese labor camps set up by the Japanese soldiers in Korea, China, and the Phillipines. I am having very strong doubts that you are Japanese as you claim.

[kageki]

Mengele most certainly was concerned with the wellbeing of the Jews. He was after all a doctor.

Th exact nature which is being disputed. I'll believe whichever is the truth.

[AMTMAN]

Well maybe some sources and critical analysis might shed some light. You don't hear much about this growing up in the States.

If that is the case then I guess whatever school district you were in failed you.

If you really need "sources" it tells me that you would not believe those sources anyway.

[milesalpha]

I thought British servicemen were treated fairly well in the POW camps. At least they were not keep out in the open as Eisenhower did with the German prisoners he held at the end of the war.

See Other Losses by James Bacque.

Other Losses

Central claims

Americans killed over 1,000,000 POWs (false)
Americans treated POWs poorly (true)
Americans treated POWs worse than the Germans (false)
Food shortages were faked to justify underfeeding prisoners (false)
Eisenhower led the campaign to mistreat POWs (false)

Another book by a non-historian. His premise was interesting enough to invoke an all out study. The stir was brief when his research turned out to be incredibly bad. The one point about American treatment of POWs is largely valid, if hideously exagerated in combination with the rest of his claims.

[AMTMAN]

I thought British servicemen were treated fairly well in the POW camps. At least they were not keep out in the open as Eisenhower did with the German prisoners he held at the end of the war.

See Other Losses by James Bacque.

Could you please back that last statement up.

[JEROME DA GNOME]

The Holocaust is "debated" becasue certain people know that if they admit it happened it would be an admission that Jews were victims.

I admit that the holocaust happened.

I admit Jews were a major if not the major victim.

I debate the total number hideously murdered.

What does that make me?

[JEROME DA GNOME]

Not just told, there was a great deal of physical evidence as well (personal jewelery, etc.)

Evidence of theft is not evidence of millions killed in gas chambers.

[kageki]

Other Losses

Central claims

Americans killed over 1,000,000 POWs (false)
Americans treated POWs poorly (true)
Americans treated POWs worse than the Germans (false)
Food shortages were faked to justify underfeeding prisoners (false)
Eisenhower led the campaign to mistreat POWs (false)

Another book by a non-historian. His premise was interesting enough to invoke an all out study. The stir was brief when his research turned out to be incredibly bad. The one point about American treatment of POWs is largely valid, if hideously exagerated in combination with the rest of his claims.

Sources please.

[AMTMAN]

I admit that the holocaust happened.

I admit Jews were a major if not the major victim.

I debate the total number hideously murdered.

What does that make me?

Reading your posts, a fool.

[JEROME DA GNOME]

You seem to be confusing the Japanese internment camps in the USA with the Japanese labor camps set up by the Japanese soldiers in Korea, China, and the Phillipines. I am having very strong doubts that you are Japanese as you claim.

His thinking here would be consistent with Japanese propaganda. It is typical for any tribe to accentuate the malice committed against the tribe and to downplay the crime the tribe has committed.

[AMTMAN]

Sources please.

Maybe you should provide a source that proves those statements to be true.

[Myriad]

Gravy, when you say the Germans were systematically killing the civilian population what exactly do you mean and why would they do this? Are the Germans killing Poles on sight? Why would they do this? What would be accomplished by killing Polish civilians?

Just asking questions.


The one these questions should have been addressed to is the Fuhrer. What answers did he give when these questions were raised at his war trial?

Oh, there was no trial, because he was already dead.

Well, then, what did the soldier who killed him report? Did he have any last words?

Oh, wait, no soldier killed him. Because he shot himself in the mouth.

Which, it appears, left his Thousand Year Reich rather in the lurch. No defiant statement to inspire his future admirers. No recommendations for how to do it right the next time. When you shoot yourself in the mouth it demonstrates rather graphically that you have nothing to say.

But, cowards do tend to disappoint. Sorry, fans.

(Somewere, in some munitions factory in early 1945, some starving shivering slave laborer inspected the bullets he'd helped to make, coming off the line, and saw, among uncounted thousands of others, the one that would tear Hitler's brain to shreds. I like to think, and I know this is pure wishful whimsy, that the slave took special note of that bullet, somehow recognized where it was bound, perhaps touched it, and that a little bit of a feeling of relief, a hint of a long-forgotten peace of mind, lightened his despair and anger over the mindless waste and futility.)

Respectfully,
Myriad

[Terry]

I admit that the holocaust happened.

I admit Jews were a major if not the major victim.

I debate the total number hideously murdered.

What does that make me?

A different thing, depending if you're trying to debate it down from 6 million to 5 million, or from 6 million to "hardly any, really".

[JEROME DA GNOME]

Reading your posts, a fool.

I see, a brilliant conversationalist you are. It is best to not type and allow others to think one is a fool than to type and prove it.

[Hokulele]

His thinking here would be consistent with Japanese propaganda. It is typical for any tribe to accentuate the malice committed against the tribe and to downplay the crime the tribe has committed.


Japanese propaganda in the '40's? Yes. In 2007? No. They fully realize the atrocities committed by the Japanese forces overseas. Visit the museum in Hiroshima for a good example of Japan admitting to their war-time crimes. Although there is a group of pro-military/war-crime denial types in Japanese politics, their standard school curriculum does not gloss over what happened in the three countries I mentioned.

Have you ever been to Japan?

[JEROME DA GNOME]

A different thing, depending if you're trying to debate it down from 6 million to 5 million, or from 6 million to "hardly any, really".

I do know two things concerning the number.

1. It is not 6 million.

2. It is not "hardly any".

[MaGZ]

Your assumption is wrong. I am not trying to prove the Nazis were angels. I am merely trying to bring more balance into the discussion.

This point is extremely pertinent to the discussion of the Holocaust since the Jews have decided to make it into something that is exclusively Jewish. The Holocaust or Shoah has become part of the Jewish identity now.

Why does this matter?

This proves that the Jews have a bias to exaggerate the claims of the Holocaust for their benefit. To be more accurate, to the benefit of the Zionists. Who provides a lot of the sources and claims for the Holocaust? Jews.


It doesn't seem the Nazis were just targeting Jews at all. Rather anyone they deemed as an enemy or undesirable.

Generalplan Ost planned out an extermination of 40 million Slavs. It indicates that the Holocaust was not exclusively for Jews. While it's been difficult to find an accurate answer I have seen numbers of dead Slavs that are higher then 6 million. What about the Slavs?

I don’t believe there were any programs to exterminate Jews or Slavs. Some of the German allies were Slavs: the Bulgarians for example. Slavs were recruited into the Waffen SS.

[JEROME DA GNOME]

Japanese propaganda in the '40's? Yes. In 2007? No. They fully realize the atrocities committed by the Japanese forces overseas. Visit the museum in Hiroshima for a good example of Japan admitting to their war-time crimes. Although there is a group of pro-military/war-crime denial types in Japanese politics, their standard school curriculum does not gloss over what happened in the three countries I mentioned.

Have you ever been to Japan?

No, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night.

Did you grow up in Japan and were you schooled in Japan?

[kageki]

Not just told, there was a great deal of physical evidence as well (personal jewelery, etc.)


What does a piece of jewelery prove? That they were confiscated? Did you know that was the main task for Jewish kapos? They were apparently the ones that actually pulled the gold tooth out.



No, they most certainly weren't forced into labor. The worst punishment they faced was the loss of US citizenship (which is actually highly unconstitutional and was the basis for the reparation trials). You seem to be confusing the Japanese internment camps in the USA with the Japanese labor camps set up by the Japanese soldiers in Korea, China, and the Phillipines. I am having very strong doubts that you are Japanese as you claim.


It was merely a question as not much about it is talked about except that sellout Malkin wrote a book defending it.

Why do you question my nationality when if anything I'm defending Axis powers like Germany and JAPAN. You seem rather defensive about the US.

I was born in Japan and moved here when I was a kid. I'm not sure why people are doubting my integrity on this.

[pomeroo]

I do know two things concerning the number.

1. It is not 6 million.

2. It is not "hardly any".



You certainly do not know that it isn't 6 million. The best estimate is between 5.6 million and 6.5 million.

[Hokulele]

No, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night.

Did you grow up in Japan and were you schooled in Japan?


My mother was born and schooled in Japan, although she did attend college in the US prior to becoming a naturalized citizen. I have been to Japan several times, visited the museum mentioned, and have worked with a number of Japanese nationals both in Japan as well as where I currently live (Hawai'i). In addition, I have read quite a bit on the Japanese American internment camps, and know people who were interned there, and subsequently moved to Hawai'i. Unfortunately, most of them are quite elderly, and if their stories aren't recorded, their voices will go unheard.

[JEROME DA GNOME]

Japanese propaganda in the '40's? Yes. In 2007? No. They fully realize the atrocities committed by the Japanese forces overseas. Visit the museum in Hiroshima for a good example of Japan admitting to their war-time crimes. Although there is a group of pro-military/war-crime denial types in Japanese politics, their standard school curriculum does not gloss over what happened in the three countries I mentioned.

Have you ever been to Japan?

Japan Today, Friday, January 26, 2007 (http://www.japantoday.com/jp/quote/2070)

"If we remain silent, anti-Japanese propaganda will spread across the world."
Satoru Mizushima, the head of a nationalist television satellite channel, on his group's plans to produce their own film on the Nanjing massacre to counter a series of movies coming out this year on its 70th anniversary.

Inside the brain of the average Chinese are vivid images (e.g. Japanese troops with swords drawn, 'Totsugeki!!! Attack!!!) that just don't exist inside the brain of the average young Japanese.

[MaGZ]

Each post is more evidence of your neoNAZI make up.

The NAZIs targeted the Jews to be eliminated. You must not of read Hitler's book, or paid attention to the industry set up to kill Jews by the train load. Your ideas are pathetic.

Where in Hitler’s book does he call for Jews to be eliminated?

If Hitler really had a plan of extermination why would he spell it out in a book?

[kageki]

I don’t believe there were any programs to exterminate Jews or Slavs. Some of the German allies were Slavs: the Bulgarians for example. Slavs were recruited into the Waffen SS.

Ok but these seem legit: (finally can link)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalplan_Ost

The Holocaust Was Part of a Larger Genocide
http://www.savethemales.ca/001850.html


It certainly seems much more complicated then just Jews. I'm starting to believe most of the Nazi hostility were against Communists and dissidents.

[Hokulele]

What does a piece of jewelery prove? That they were confiscated? Did you know that was the main task for Jewish kapos? They were apparently the ones that actually pulled the gold tooth out.


A piece of jewlery? Just one?

It was merely a question as not much about it is talked about except that sellout Malkin wrote a book defending it.

Why do you question my nationality when if anything I'm defending Axis powers like Germany and JAPAN. You seem rather defensive about the US.

I was born in Japan and moved here when I was a kid. I'm not sure why people are doubting my integrity on this.


Mostly due to the fact that you do not seem familiar with important elements of Japanese-American history (such as the internment camps).

[Hokulele]

Japan Today, Friday, January 26, 2007 (http://www.japantoday.com/jp/quote/2070)


An absolutely perfect example of my post. Thanks for proving my point.

[JEROME DA GNOME]

You certainly do not know that it isn't 6 million. The best estimate is between 5.6 million and 6.5 million.

There were about 6 million Jews missing from Europe at the end of the war.

Are you contending that all 6 million were murdered by the Nazis?

[kageki]

His thinking here would be consistent with Japanese propaganda. It is typical for any tribe to accentuate the malice committed against the tribe and to downplay the crime the tribe has committed.

That is the point of the century.

This is precisely why history is not exact.

[JEROME DA GNOME]

Where in Hitler’s book does he call for Jews to be eliminated?

If Hitler really had a plan of extermination why would he spell it out in a book?

People write their plans in books all the time for public consumption. Most people; when it is pointed out, toss away the information as conspiracy theory.

[JEROME DA GNOME]

An absolutely perfect example of my post. Thanks for proving my point.

You are joking, right?
:confused:

[milesalpha]

Sources please.

I should probably insist you retract all the incorrect statements you have made so far, but that would take hours by now. Not to mention you haven't answered my request for some of your sources. But I'll humour you (though, for someone who says he is interested in the truth, your reading seems to be completely one-sided).

Online

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/b/bacque-james/ambrose-001.html

http://www.cyberussr.com/hcunn/for/us-germany-pow.html

Books

Eisenhower and the German POWs: Facts against Falsehood

The Encyclopedia of Prisoners of War and Internment

Journals

Too numerous to list. A simple search of Jstor will reveal a couple of dozen. Even the Canadian Bulletin of Medical History had something to say.

Now, rather than reading that tripe, why not dig into Bullock's "Hitler: A Study in Tyranny". and Kershaw's "Hubris" and "Nemesis". Frankly, those are the starting points for any layman trying to understand Hitler.

[Pardalis]

It's our tax money building those museums.

Good.

What do you think Israel is about?

The Holocaust is debated precisely because of the weight of the subject and it's massive consequences.


No, the Holocaust is being debated by deniers because they want Isreal to disappear. Denialism is the appearance of a debate where there is none, to further a political cause.

http://www.denialism.com/2007/03/what-is-denialism.html

If it wasn't for your hatred of Israel, there wouldn't be a debate about the Holocaust.

[Pardalis]

That is only so because we are told that Jews were gassed in gas chambers and shoved into ovens which is what is being disputed.

It is not disputed, it is a fact. You want to dispute it because you want to diminish the horror, in order to invalidate the state of Israel.

[MaGZ]

Uh, no. It might've been technically capitalist, but there was no free enterprise what so ever. Especially not after the confiscation of "non-aryans" property.

Are you sure about that? Do you mean Germans could not start businesses on their own. No retail stores or small machine shops, no produce stands or cafes to be started on their own for their own livelihood. It just does not sound likely to me.

[CHF]

There were about 6 million Jews missing from Europe at the end of the war.

Are you contending that all 6 million were murdered by the Nazis?

Hundreds of thousands were killed by Lithuanians, Latvians, Ukrainians and Romanian troops killed some 360,000. But yeah, the vast majority were killed by Nazis.

[JEROME DA GNOME]

Are you sure about that? Do you mean Germans could not start businesses on their own. No retail stores or small machine shops, no produce stands or cafes to be started on their own for their own livelihood. It just does not sound likely to me.

Major industries are highly regulated by the government. It is one of the main tenets of Fascism.

[kageki]

You have got to be kidding me. The US was duped into entering the war by Hitler, you do know he declared war on them and not vice versa? As for elaborating on Hitler's offer of peace (not land, PEACE, unless you count his guarantee of the Empire, and you shouldn't) after the fall of Poland, and then of France, would you have believed him? Hitler was well aware than Germany was not prepared for a long term war, and eventually he would have to turn east for his lebensraum. Look up how Hitler felt about the concept of a 2 front war. Hence his "peace' offer.

No what exactly happened? I've been pretty occupied by this headline that said:

Judea Declares War On Germany
http://www.biblestudysite.com/judeawar.htm
http://www.wintersonnenwende.com/scriptorium/english/archives/articles/jdecwar.html


Are you sure Hitler didn't offer to give all the land back and just wanted it back to pre-WWI boundaries?

This clearly illustrates that Hitler had no desires to invade Britain or the US as he considered them Aryan cousins.

Any additional sources regarding Hitler's peace offer would be appreciated.

[JEROME DA GNOME]

Hundreds of thousands were killed by Lithuanians, Latvians, Ukrainians and Romanian troops killed some 360,000. But yeah, the vast majority were killed by Nazis.

Also, some number emigrated to America and Israel. Some number died as many civilians died in the war. Some number died fighting in the war.

[Hokulele]

You are joking, right?
:confused:


No.

[milesalpha]

No what exactly happened? I've been pretty occupied by this headline that said:

Judea Declares War On Germany
http://www.biblestudysite.com/judeawar.htm
http://www.wintersonnenwende.com/scriptorium/english/archives/articles/jdecwar.html


Are you sure Hitler didn't offer to give all the land back and just wanted it back to pre-WWI boundaries?

This clearly illustrates that Hitler had no desires to invade Britain or the US as he considered them Aryan cousins.

Any additional sources regarding Hitler's peace offer would be appreciated.


Yes, I am not surprised that those headlines would fascinate you. Does the armband get ever get tight?

As for sources, I gave you your assignment, this is also covered by Kershaw and Bullock. Odd, they don't seem to think Hitler was being honest.

Really now, others have pointed out that your arguments fall into the neo-nazi nonsense more than they do any search for history. Why not simply give up the facade and admit you have something against Jews. I could care less about that, it's the butchering of history I find offensive.

[Corsair 115]

The only country National Socialist Germany wanted to destroy was the Soviet Union. To get there you have to go through Poland.Then please explain the conquering of Belgium, Holland, Denmark, Norway, Luxemburg, and France, as well as the attempted conquering of Britain. All of these nations were on Germany's western front. Poland, Russia, etc., are on the eastern front. Couldn't anyone in the Nazi regime read a map?

[twinstead]

Then please explain the conquering of Belgium, Holland, Denmark, Norway, Luxemburg, and France, as well as the attempted conquering of Britain. All of these nations were on the western front.

Well, If you want to get to the Soviet Union by way of Alaska, one way would be to work your way west from Europe and across the USA and Alaska until you conquered Siberia.

Simple. ;)

[Pardalis]

Where in Hitler’s book does he call for Jews to be eliminated?

If Hitler really had a plan of extermination why would he spell it out in a book?

"final solution", ring a bell?

[Corsair 115]

History knows only one truth. It is up to the individual to pursue it.You avoided answering my question. It was a rather simple one. Why are you apparently afraid of answering it?

[milesalpha]

Also, some number emigrated to America and Israel. Some number died as many civilians died in the war. Some number died fighting in the war.

You have to narrow that down some, only German Jews managed to emigrate in any numbers. I have mentioned before that the western nations raised some major obstacles to jewish immigration (Canada was among the worst). People seem to have the idea that the Nazi policy against Jews was a static affair. This couldn't be further from the truth. The Nazi attitude would change and evolve because of many reasons, most importantly being the huge number of Jews in the captured territories, and the influence of radical elements within the Nazi government. There is no question that there were elements within the German government that were loathe to pursue some of the more aggressive parts of Jewish policy. Some of the (smarter) members of the government recognized the contributions from Jews within the society (Schacht for example), some were even humane in their concerns. Sadly these people were not among those closest to Hitler, who could be influenced on such matters (i.e. campaign to euthanize the handicapped in the 1930s). This is not to say the anti-Jewish campaign could have been stopped, it was much too central to Hitler's basic tenets and propaganda. but perhaps it might have been blunted.

[milesalpha]

Then please explain the conquering of Belgium, Holland, Denmark, Norway, Luxemburg, and France, as well as the attempted conquering of Britain. All of these nations were on Germany's western front. Poland, Russia, etc., are on the eastern front. Couldn't anyone in the Nazi regime read a map?

Ouch you have my beloved Lacey's picture and now I have to quibble with you. The conquering of the west was simply the logical move. There was no way that Britain and France could back down at this point, their public would never have allowed it. Hitler had proven that he could not be trusted under any circumstances. France could actually have won the war rather easily had it simply invaded (unbelievably crappy leadership) anytime in 1939 or early 1940. Instead they gave Germany all the time it needed to shift the troops from Poland to Norway, and then to the western front. They have to take Belgium and Holland because the Maginot line would have forced an ugly frontal assault. It was Guderian who really wrote these plans, I think he could read a map.

I know you wrote this as a reply to the silly contention of Hitler wanting peace but I am in full out discussion mode, and this is more interesting to me than nitpicking tiny details in the Holocaust.

[kageki]

No, the Holocaust is being debated by deniers because they want Isreal to disappear. Denialism is the appearance of a debate where there is none, to further a political cause.

http://www.denialism.com/2007/03/what-is-denialism.html

If it wasn't for your hatred of Israel, there wouldn't be a debate about the Holocaust.

Please remember that the Holocaust came before Israel which completely invalidates your statement.



Balfour Declaration in 1917
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration_of_1917

"the British government supported Zionist plans for a National home for the Jewish people within Palestine‎ "


Transfer Agrreement

http://www.transferagreement.com/

" The Transfer Agreement is Edwin Black's compelling, award-winning story of a negotiated arrangement in 1933 between Zionist organizations and the Nazis to transfer some 50,000 Jews, and $100 million of their assets, to Jewish Palestine in exchange for stopping the worldwide Jewish-led boycott threatening to topple the Hitler regime in its first year."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Israel
http://www.biblestudysite.com/judeawar.htm
http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com


It turns out the Zionists really did plan out this whole Israel thing including the issue of how to get Jews to move there all based on a whacky religious tale that tells of G-d giving Eretz Israel to the Chosen Ones and trying to rebuild the Temple of Solomon.

Certainly not to say that the Israeli government has not done anything wrong ever right? What about the Palestinians?

http://www.btselem.org/index.asp

[kageki]

Yes, I am not surprised that those headlines would fascinate you. Does the armband get ever get tight?

As for sources, I gave you your assignment, this is also covered by Kershaw and Bullock. Odd, they don't seem to think Hitler was being honest.

Really now, others have pointed out that your arguments fall into the neo-nazi nonsense more than they do any search for history. Why not simply give up the facade and admit you have something against Jews. I could care less about that, it's the butchering of history I find offensive.

Would you happen to know the exact name and conditions of this peace offer? I really like to see some sources on this since I am having a hard time finding any. Since you seem to know a lot about it you must have some sources you can provide?

[Pardalis]

Please remember that the Holocaust came before Israel which completely invalidates your statement.

It is you who has it backwards pal.

As you posted, the state of Israel was a project well before the Holocaust happened. So you trying to invalidate or diminish the Holocaust in order to discredit Israel is a dead end.

[milesalpha]

Would you happen to know the exact name and conditions of this peace offer? I really like to see some sources on this since I am having a hard time finding any. Since you seem to know a lot about it you must have some sources you can provide?


There was no formal offer. Hitler had extended peace feelers through other officials after Poland, notably Goring (he had a network that ran through Scandinavian diplomats). After the fall of France, Hitler made the advance in a Reichstag speech. If Britain conceded Europe and arranged to have the former German colonies returned, Hitler would magnanimously recognize the British Empire. As Kershaw and Bullock both note, this generous offer came almost immediately after he was told that Operation Sea Lion was a virtual impossibility.

[kageki]

It is you who has it backwards pal.

As you posted, the state of Israel was a project well before the Holocaust happened. So you trying to invalidate or diminish the Holocaust in order to discredit Israel is a dead end.

The state of Israel physically did not exist before the Holocaust right?

Many people feel the Holocaust serves as a perfect justification for the creation of the state of Israel that was arbitrarily decided between a couple Zionists and the British on foreign territory with indigenous people living on it who have been under brutal occupation of said state with a racist policy against non-Jews since then.

My first and foremost purpose in this discussion is to find out exactly what occurred during the Holocaust.

[milesalpha]

Transfer Agrreement

http://www.transferagreement.com/

" The Transfer Agreement is Edwin Black's compelling, award-winning story of a negotiated arrangement in 1933 between Zionist organizations and the Nazis to transfer some 50,000 Jews, and $100 million of their assets, to Jewish Palestine in exchange for stopping the worldwide Jewish-led boycott threatening to topple the Hitler regime in its first year."




You might want to actually read this book before you assume it buttresses you ideals. It doesn't.

[Pardalis]

Many people feel the Holocaust serves as a perfect justification for the creation of the state of Israel

It doesn't mean the Holocaust hasn't happened the way it did.

that was arbitrarily decided between a couple Zionists and the British on foreign territory with indigenous people living on it who have been under brutal occupation of said state with a racist policy against non-Jews since then.Too much BS to respond to here.

My first and foremost purpose in this discussion is to find out exactly what occurred during the Holocaust.Again, because you hate the state of Israel you want to diminish the Holocaust.

It's an odd case of:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post_hoc_ergo_propter_hoc

"The state of Israel is wrong,
the Holocaust was used to create the State of Israel.
Therefore the story of the Holocaust is wrong."

The Holocaust happened the way it did, and Israel is there to stay.

Good bye creep.

[gtc]

There were about 6 million Jews missing from Europe at the end of the war.

Are you contending that all 6 million were murdered by the Nazis?

This is an argument from ignorance and incredulity.

To properly answer this question, you need to show that your number of 'about 6 million Jews missing' is correct.

To do this you need to look at the population of Jews in Europe before and after World War II. You have done this already.

Then you need to see if the definition of 'Jew' and 'European' was the same in both the before and after surveys. Then you need to see if the methodology behind the surveys was comparable.

Only then can you be confident that you have a handle on the number of Jews in Europe before and after World War II.

Next you need to consider that the Jewish population wasn't static. People were being born, changing their religion and dying of natural causes. So you need to account for these factors

Only then can you properly understand how many Jews were missing from Europe.

Now you can start to investigate why these Jews might be missing. To do this you need to study deaths in combat, deaths at the hands of the nazis and those who fled overseas.

This clearly illustrates that Hitler had no desires to invade Britain.

. It also does not seem that Hitler wanted global conquest nor even had the desire to topple England as he viewed their cooperation as necessary.

The plan to invade was called Operation Sealion. It existed. Deal.

[Corsair 115]

Ouch you have my beloved Lacey's picture and now I have to quibble with you. Given the first part of your reply, I'll let you quibble without complaint. :D

I know you wrote this as a reply to the silly contention of Hitler wanting peace but I am in full out discussion mode, and this is more interesting to me than nitpicking tiny details in the Holocaust.Well, it was more of a reply to the idea that if Germany wanted to get Russia first and foremost, then it went in the wrong direction for over a year.

The plan to invade was called Operation Sealion. It existed. Deal.There were also some fairly detailed plans as to how the occupation of Britain would be conducted.

That said, the prospects for Germany actually being able to successfully conduct a seaborne invasion of Britain were quite low. They just didn't have the proper equipment or experience to do the job right even if they had won the Battle of Britain (winning that was also unlikely).

[kageki]

It doesn't mean the Holocaust hasn't happened the way it did.

Too much BS to respond to here.

Again, because you hate the state of Israel you want to diminish the Holocaust.

It's an odd case of:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post_hoc_ergo_propter_hoc

"The state of Israel is wrong,
the Holocaust was used to create the State of Israel.
Therefore the Holocaust was wrong."

The Holocaust happened the way it did, and Israel is there to stay.

Good bye creep.

You certainly have a fascination with assumption and conjecture don't you?

But what if the Holocaust was exaggerated? What if the Nazis didn't gas Jews in gas chambers and burned them alive in ovens?

If it is true these stories were fabricated then that is great indignity to the German people who also suffer from the burden of the Holocaust and the Nazis even today. Did the Nazis still kill Jews? Yes it appears to be so, but the extermination camps really appears to be for what it is. A concentration camp for labor to produce goods. The extermination camps were really crematoriums that burned dead bodies to help stop the spread of typhus. Many people died in the war for a variety of reasons.

None of this matters off course. Even if the Holocaust did happen that way it did, it still is not justification for the colonization and creation of Israel.

[Pardalis]

But what if the Holocaust was exaggerated?

It wasn't.

The rest of your post is pure Holocaust denial rubbish.

[kageki]

The plan to invade was called Operation Sealion. It existed. Deal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Sealion

It existed but was postponed indefinitely.

"Following swift victory in the Battle of France, Germany believed the war in the west was won. However, the United Kingdom refused peace talks. "

[Foolmewunz]

You certainly have a fascination with assumption and conjecture don't you?

But what if the Holocaust was exaggerated? What if the Nazis didn't gas Jews in gas chambers and burned them alive in ovens?

If it is true these stories were fabricated then that is great indignity to the German people who also suffer from the burden of the Holocaust and the Nazis even today. Did the Nazis still kill Jews? Yes it appears to be so, but the extermination camps really appears to be for what it is. A concentration camp for labor to produce goods. The extermination camps were really crematoriums that burned dead bodies to help stop the spread of typhus. Many people died in the war for a variety of reasons.

None of this matters off course. Even if the Holocaust did happen that way it did, it still is not justification for the colonization and creation of Israel.

Marvelous post! Read the first line, then read the three paragraphs of your own conjecture. What if... what if... if it is true... appears to be... even if...

You are Your posts are totally factless. It's really amazing.

[leftysergeant]

Oh, where to begin? This thread has grown so much since I left for work this evening.

Hitler wanted Germany to be the one and only super-power, and for all non-Germans to be subjects to the Germanic peoples. There just was no place for the Jews in this scheme. He didn't even consider them fully human. There was no intent to re-settle the Jews in Palestine. If he said that, it was entirely a ruse. He made sure that his borders were sealed so that the Jews could not escape and save him the trouble of confining them awaiting transfer.

Hitler thought, at the outset, that America and Britain would fall into line with him before the invasion of France. When they didn't, he thought that Britain would capitulate easily, there being such a large fascist movement in Britain, especially among influential citizens, to include at least a cousin of Neville Chamberlain"s. I sometimes wonder wheter Neville himself might have been a closet Nazi.

Dunkirk taught him otherwise.

Hitler was also kind of useless in planning strategic moves. His foolishness, in the end, was a blessing to the world. It was really stupid of him to have left a major logistics center on his flank.

He was not interested in just wiping out Communism. He thought that the wheat fields of the Steppes should belong to the Herrenvolk. It's in Mein Kampf.

The "sliver" of Czechoslovakia that he wanted was also the source of most of the resources for the Czech industries and the only defensible boundary within Europe where his expansion could have been stopped. Chamberlain should burn in hell for stabbing the most vibrant democracy in Europe in the back.

In case anyone is still wondering, I am not Jewish. My ancestors were English, French and Polish, with perhaps a bit of Cherokee many generations back.

Betray my race? That is an absurd concept to begin with.

It's like this. If you have descendants, your blood line is not extinct.

There have been two "pure" races in the history of mankind, the Tasmanians and the Neanderthalers. See what they amounted to? Only by breeding out were any remnant of them preserved. There is still some speculation that the only reason there are white people in the world is that the far eastern populations of Neanderthalers doinked African immigrants. The DNA tests are still inconclusive, in my opinion. I think the most telling test would be on the Predmosti remains. They look more Neanderthal than African to me, but are still clearly H. sapiens sapiens.

Just being white does not, in and of itself, make anyone special or more deserving of a bigger share of the world's resources.

And Pierce and Matthews were not great men. They were morons, and the world is better off without them.

As for those who hope to fulfill their dreams, they are welcome to the pointy ends of a few rounds of 7.62X54R should they get froggy.

[milesalpha]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Sealion

It existed but was postponed indefinitely.

"Following swift victory in the Battle of France, Germany believed the war in the west was won. However, the United Kingdom refused peace talks. "


It seems you are determined to cling to the incredibly stupid notion that Hitler actually wanted peace. You are afraid to read Kershaw so I will bring Kershaw to you. I know the detailed explanation from one of the finest historians (imagine that, consulting a historian on history) on the subject of Nazi Germany will have little effect on you, but it should illuminate the weakness of your viewpoint for others.

http://books.google.com/books?id=9SBndd4Jc0QC&pg=PA144&lpg=PA144&dq=hitler+reichstag+speech+peace+offer&source=web&ots=i9wfZGnM6_&sig=uHs-yVtv9afDtjXEWks--h-DKfs

A few hundred pages of far greater depth than anything you have presented. I would suggest you read the entire thing but you have made it obvious that a few lines from some hack internet site is the best you can do. Once again, leave history alone and stick to your anti-semitism.

[kageki]

It is not disputed, it is a fact. You want to dispute it because you want to diminish the horror, in order to invalidate the state of Israel.

I want to dispute it because it seems it may not have been possible or make sense that the Nazis specifically would use Zyklon B to exterminate mass amounts of people.



Contradictory testimonies do seem to exist. That nothing that bad ever happened other then how wartime conditions are like.

I still wonder why the Nazis even bothered to delouse the prisoners with Zyklon B which is what it is made for, only to use the same gas to kill the prisoners instead?

The Nazis did have an interest in keeping the prisoners alive so they could be put to work in the labor camps. It does seem that the Nazis had a need for manpower so it would actually make sense to keep more prisoners alive.




Was it technically and logistically possible to have carried out mass executions in gas chambers specifically using Zyklon B given the conditions of the environment and the process described by witness testimonies?

A highly lethal gas that can be absorbed through the skin, but was designed as granules to be slow release and could not have achieved temperatures high enough for the gas to evaporate given the location.

That given these conditions it is not be possible that prisoners would die in minutes upon release, but instead would take much longer or possibly not even die at all because the gas would be ineffective in that cold, damp environment?

Since the dead bodies would continue to emit the lethal gas it absorbed, body disposal would be an incredibly dangerous if not lethal task. It appears that it neither seems logistically possible to kill that many people using Zyklon B gas or practical to use gas for mass extermination.

Disposing of even one person that died from gassing requires the body to be scrubbed down thoroughly before it is safe to handle it again.

It makes me wonder if Zyklon B could have even been used for mass extermination?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zyklon_B
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Zyklon_B

[leftysergeant]

WHOA! That pretzel logic makes my head hurt.

I still wonder why the Nazis even bothered to delouse the prisoners with Zyklon B which is what it is made for, only to use the same gas to kill the prisoners instead?

To save ammo, once the have separated the Arbeitsfaehig from the Arbeitsunfaehig.

The Nazis did have an interest in keeping the prisoners alive so they could be put to work in the labor camps. It does seem that the Nazis had a need for manpower so it would actually make sense to keep more prisoners alive.

It made some sense to keep the Abreitsfaehig alive as long as they remained in that status, but they were not, apparently, considered worth the effort of providing well for their continued well-being.

Was it technically and logistically possible to have carried out mass executions in gas chambers specifically using Zyklon B given the conditions of the environment and the process described by witness testimonies?

A highly lethal gas that can be absorbed through the skin, but was designed as granules to be slow release and could not have achieved temperatures high enough for the gas to evaporate given the location.

Of course it was.


Disposing of even one person that died from gassing requires the body to be scrubbed down thoroughly before it is safe to handle it again.

What gives you that idea?

You know, don't you, thatr Zyclon B was also used to delouse clothing? Not how persistant a residue could it leave and still be safe to use for that purpose?

And how can a dead body release a lethal dose of the stuff if it only absorbs enough to kill the individual? It really makes no sense.

Using Zyclon B was good logistics, because it gets two uses out of one commodity, saving the trouble of ordering and transporting several in smaller quantities.

Now, as for your blather about its being ineffectual in that environment, how, pray tell, would it be on any use against lice if cannot disperse into a gas that the inefficient respiratory apparatus on an insect could inhale?

[kageki]

It seems you are determined to cling to the incredibly stupid notion that Hitler actually wanted peace. You are afraid to read Kershaw so I will bring Kershaw to you. I know the detailed explanation from one of the finest historians (imagine that, consulting a historian on history) on the subject of Nazi Germany will have little effect on you, but it should illuminate the weakness of your viewpoint for others.

http://books.google.com/books?id=9SBndd4Jc0QC&pg=PA144&lpg=PA144&dq=hitler+reichstag+speech+peace+offer&source=web&ots=i9wfZGnM6_&sig=uHs-yVtv9afDtjXEWks--h-DKfs

A few hundred pages of far greater depth than anything you have presented. I would suggest you read the entire thing but you have made it obvious that a few lines from some hack internet site is the best you can do. Once again, leave history alone and stick to your anti-semitism.

So this Ian Kershaw guy is quite the hero for you huh?

It seems the contents of his books are controversial. Aren't there more then one historian out there?

Now you have a problem with wikipedia? You know it is widely accepted and does contain links to various sources and I merely provide it for reference. Wikipedia is quite biased to mainstream views and about Jews anyways. You should be welcoming them.

[leftysergeant]

It seems the contents of his books are controversial. Aren't there more then one historian out there?


Yes, there are. And the vast majority of them consider Hitler to have been a deranged and perverted little git who inflicted some of the greatest evils ever perpetrated against humanity.

Stalin, at least, was sympathetic to those who actively participated in the building of the society he envisioned. He did not exclude entire categories by accident of birth. Unfortunately, he was not competant to really carry out the designs of Marx and Engels. He was too much into himself. He had a distorted vison of the world, but that vision was grounded in a lot more realistic principles than was Naziism.

Pol Pot probably had more in common with Hitler. He would have been considered a very close second, had he had as many people under his jurisdiction, and his vision was more of a halucination.

[milesalpha]

So this Ian Kershaw guy is quite the hero for you huh?

It seems the contents of his books are controversial. Aren't there more then one historian out there?

Now you have a problem with wikipedia? You know it is widely accepted and does contain links to various sources and I merely provide it for reference. Wikipedia is quite biased to mainstream views and about Jews anyways. You should be welcoming them.

Controversial? By who, never mind you never seem to mention those sorts of things. He is regarded as one of the greatest historians alive and his biography of Hitler is considered the definitive work, replacing Bullock's (you seem to forget I have mentioned him, no surprise, I have seen your limited comprehension in action) biography. Should I bother to list his awards and work up to his knighthood? Yeah very controversial. Not at all like the crap you spout. I have also cited Ambrose, we are now up to 3 historians, to your zero. I could add Watt and Greenberg but what's the point. It's not like you would actually read real history, it won't support your hatred. And it would be difficult to find a student of the period who doesn't regard Kershaw as someone to emulate. His scholarship is awe-inspiring, and reminds me how trivial my knowledge is. Imagine where you would place on that scale.

Wikipedia is a joke in any university I have attended or worked in. I have never been in a history department that would allow it's use as a source. There goes the idea that it is widely accepted. This is easy enough to confirm, drop by a local university history department and ask them. While you're are it, you might repeat your "summary" to them, Historians enjoy a good laugh. I am quite done being the least bit courteous to you, you are not trying to learn, nor are you seeking the truth. You are simply trying to justify your racism, and are far out of your league here. You have repeatedly shown how ignorant you are of the basics, once again referring to that infantile summary of yours. It's time to invoke the slaughter rule.

[timhau]

The only country National Socialist Germany wanted to destroy was the Soviet Union. To get there you have to go through Poland.

Yup. Too bad Hitler had Jewish-made maps, so he was first duped into going to Denmark, Norway, Netherlands, Belgium, and France.

[kageki]

You know, don't you, thatr Zyclon B was also used to delouse clothing? Not how persistant a residue could it leave and still be safe to use for that purpose?

And how can a dead body release a lethal dose of the stuff if it only absorbs enough to kill the individual? It really makes no sense.

I would assume that clothing do not absorb gas as opposed to a dead body.

How do you know that a body can't absorb more gas? It only requires a small amount for it to be lethal so it really doesn't matter how much gas the bodies can really absorb.


Using Zyclon B was good logistics, because it gets two uses out of one commodity, saving the trouble of ordering and transporting several in smaller quantities.

Now, as for your blather about its being ineffectual in that environment, how, pray tell, would it be on any use against lice if cannot disperse into a gas that the inefficient respiratory apparatus on an insect could inhale?

From what I understand, it would require that the ambient temperature needs to be high enough to meet the point where the Zyklon B granules would evaporate for it to be effective. Larger amounts are required to kill pests then humans.

I would imagine the Nazis knew how to properly use Zyklon B for it's purpose. To delouse prisoners in an effort to stop typhus which it seems they had frequently done and for any new prisoners that entered the camps.

[kageki]

Yes, there are. And the vast majority of them consider Hitler to have been a deranged and perverted little git who inflicted some of the greatest evils ever perpetrated against humanity.

Stalin, at least, was sympathetic to those who actively participated in the building of the society he envisioned. He did not exclude entire categories by accident of birth. Unfortunately, he was not competant to really carry out the designs of Marx and Engels. He was too much into himself. He had a distorted vison of the world, but that vision was grounded in a lot more realistic principles than was Naziism.

Pol Pot probably had more in common with Hitler. He would have been considered a very close second, had he had as many people under his jurisdiction, and his vision was more of a halucination.

You're actually defending Stalin and Communists? Wow. You don't find a problem with that? You sound like you're almost drooling over Stalin. Do you support China too?

Just wondering if it would be appropriate to call you a Communist from now.

[timhau]

From what I understand, it would require that the ambient temperature needs to be high enough to meet the point where the Zyklon B granules would evaporate for it to be effective. Larger amounts are required to kill pests then humans.

I would imagine the Nazis knew how to properly use Zyklon B for it's purpose. To delouse prisoners in an effort to stop typhus which it seems they had frequently done and for any new prisoners that entered the camps.

(emphasis added)

In other words, they were using Zyklon B to delouse prisoners, and for delousing, you need dosages that are lethal to humans. :dig:

[cyclonic]

WARNING! these videos contain disturbing images.


These videos are from the world at war episode "genocide" and include numerous eyewitness accounts from jews and germans.

genocide 1
the warsaw ghetto.
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=3-o6jvWXPCQ

genocide 2
transportation to camps.
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=xxchZq_IBLY

genocide 3
inside the camps.
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=frlgTIWYzz4

genocide 4
the horror comes to an end.
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=VABMeV_KvFw


Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.
George Santayana (1863-1952)

[gtc]

Wikipedia is quite biased to mainstream views and about Jews anyways.

No matter how much you might protest that you are not an anti-semite, your words betray you.

[leftysergeant]

You're actually defending Stalin and Communists? Wow. You don't find a problem with that? You sound like you're almost drooling over Stalin. Do you support China too?

Just wondering if it would be appropriate to call you a Communist from now.

Not defending Stalin, as much as I am saying that Hitler was many times more the monster. Stalin was too self-centered to really build a sound socialist state. And he was militarily inept. Had he not rehabilitated Zhukov, we would all have been screwed. It is more a testament to the fighting abilities and courage of the Russian soldier and the brilliance of some of their weapons designers that they were able to hold off the Germans and turn the tide of battle. Those qualified field commanders who managed to survive the purges made the real difference. Stalin was actually in the way a lot in the lead-up to the war.

No, I do not defend the kind of communism practiced in China, either, but it was an improvement over what the Japanese did to China and Korea.

I'm actually a Democrat, but a bit left of FDR.

[kageki]

Not defending Stalin, as much as I am saying that Hitler was many times more the monster. Stalin was too self-centered to really build a sound socialist state. And he was militarily inept. Had he not rehabilitated Zhukov, we would all have been screwed. It is more a testament to the fighting abilities and courage of the Russian soldier and the brilliance of some of their weapons designers that they were able to hold off the Germans and turn the tide of battle. Those qualified field commanders who managed to survive the purges made the real difference. Stalin was actually in the way a lot in the lead-up to the war.

No, I do not defend the kind of communism practiced in China, either, but it was an improvement over what the Japanese did to China and Korea.

I'm actually a Democrat, but a bit left of FDR.

You mentioned Stalin and sympathize in the same sentence. I'm not sure how much more sappy you can get. The brave Communist, Bolshevik soldiers? Hitler was also fighting on two fronts.

You did just try to defend what China is doing still to this day.What does the Japanese have to do with what China is doing to their own people?

Wow I had no idea some people really support communism. Why don't you go live in China then?

[Darat]

What "race" would that be ? Exactly how "pure" does it need to be ?

Don't worry there is a handy chart you can use to check if you are pure enough or not.

[leftysergeant]

Are you having reading comprehension problems? I did not say Stalin was a great leader. Just not as wack as Hitler. And yes, it was the military virtue of the Russian soldier, more than Stalin's military skills that enabled them to defeat the Germans.

And the Chinese Communists were at least trying to rebuild China for the benfit of the Chinese, rather than for the Japanese.

What Japan did to China and Korea was inexcusable.

[MG1962]

Not defending Stalin, as much as I am saying that Hitler was many times more the monster. Stalin was too self-centered to really build a sound socialist state. And he was militarily inept. Had he not rehabilitated Zhukov, we would all have been screwed. It is more a testament to the fighting abilities and courage of the Russian soldier and the brilliance of some of their weapons designers that they were able to hold off the Germans and turn the tide of battle. Those qualified field commanders who managed to survive the purges made the real difference. Stalin was actually in the way a lot in the lead-up to the war.

No, I do not defend the kind of communism practiced in China, either, but it was an improvement over what the Japanese did to China and Korea.

I'm actually a Democrat, but a bit left of FDR.

There is a series of documentaries called Scorched Earth - they spend a lot of time examining the tide of war in the East and what factors led to the change of fortune for the Soviets

One point made, was the average Russian saw it as just a war - The germans would come, the germans would go - Most Russians supported Stalin cause he was the only tyrannt that spoke Russian

However as the war entered its second year - a lot of the propaganda being spewed by the Soviet government about the way the NAZIs were behaving started to become confimed by suvivors filtering back from the front. The Russian people began to realise just what was at stake, not only their country being conqured, but all possibilty that the people themselves would be exterminated.

Apparently there was a famous speech at the time in which Stalin began. "My fellow brother and sister comrades" The Russians suddenly realised how deep in the poo they really where - Stalin had never spoken on personal terms up to that point. Half joking, it was said nearly half the country had a stroke on hearing that.

[Foolmewunz]

<snip>

Wow I had no idea some people really support communism. Why don't you go live in China then?

Ahem!

Which century are you from Kageki?

[JimBenArm]

I see, a brilliant conversationalist you are. It is best to not type and allow others to think one is a fool than to type and prove it.
So why do you continue to do so?

[kageki]

WARNING! these videos contain disturbing images.


These videos are from the world at war episode "genocide" and include numerous eyewitness accounts from jews and germans.

genocide 1
the warsaw ghetto.
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=3-o6jvWXPCQ

genocide 2
transportation to camps.
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=xxchZq_IBLY

genocide 3
inside the camps.
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=frlgTIWYzz4

genocide 4
the horror comes to an end.
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=VABMeV_KvFw


Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.
George Santayana (1863-1952)


It was called resettlement and they did have plans to resettle the Jewish population to Palestine. Why do you spend so much effort to transport people only to kill them?

The "inside the camps" one includes a British propaganda officer. I call that biased. To their credit they did show a clip of German "propaganda" that shows prisoners attending to their gardens inside the camp.


Gassings

One of the survivors to appear on the section about the camps talks about the gassing. Did he actually witness them die? Did the prisoners scream when the showers were turned on? Did he witness how they disposed of the bodies?

Burning pits

The last survivor is simply labeled as a "Hungarian Jew" who presumably speaks in Hungarian. I suppose all you need to know is that he is a Jew. Don't they have names? What was he really talking about?

Were there really burning pits of bodies and is it even possible?

What does that blurry picture of questionable nature really show? If it did happen were they not burning bodies of people that had already died?

It seem it is actually difficult to burn many bodies in a large pit and would certainly require large amounts of fuel which was a scarce commodity. If it is even true about this melted fat being scooped on top of the pile, would it even help to continue the burning?


"I understand that the Auschwitz-Birkenau complex was built on a swamp.
Even with drainage ditches, the water is still very close to the surface. This
condition would make it difficult to dig burning pits as described in the literature.

There seems to be a conflict between the earths natural forces and Holocaust sources. "

http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=9026

[SpitfireIX]

What was it about your parental upbringing that led you and your siblings to betray your race?


http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/1706046ea08bbb122f.jpg

[SDC]

But it was only part of Czechoslovakia right? The land that was lost? Austria does seem like it was a straight take over though.

How was it really inside Germany? Hitler might have hated non-Aryans, but he also seem to have taken good care of his people.

Well, it's in response to my post, so I'll reply.

Hitler took over all of Bohemia and Moravia, the two western parts, by March 1939. Slovakia was made into a German puppet state. The eastern chunk, variously known but nowadays recognized as a western slice of Ukraine centered on Uzhgorod (Russian translit.), went to Hungary.

You know, you could look this stuff up. Even Wiki Wacky Pedia may have simple stuff like this right.

I don't think you're Japanese, by the way. That would mean you are non-Aryan by any "definition."

Inside Germany... Yep, Germans did pretty well, for a while. What's a "non-Aryan"? Are Czechs and Poles and Russians "non-Aryan"? He hated them like poison. Almost as much as he hated the Jews, but he didn't have any respect for their brains, so they could wait a bit, and then live in slavery to the Germans.

[SpitfireIX]

Yup. Too bad Hitler had Jewish-made maps, so he was first duped into going to Denmark, Norway, Netherlands, Belgium, and France.


:dl: :dl: :dl:

[SDC]

I'll pass on such suffocating details for now. I see nizkor and I see zionist propaganda.



So it seems gassing by Zyklon B is not even technically possible. Einsatzgruppen is admittedly poorly documented. What does that word even mean? What did they really do and how many did they kill?



Why is that?

What makes the Jews more enduring when more Slavs died and is documented that 40 million were planned to be executed? However it is disputed that the same could be said about the Jews and it turns out it's possibly not even close to 6 million.

Why don't we ever read about everyone else?



They absolutely use it for political reasons. The Israelis still ask for money from the Germans, Swiss and have even accused the Vatican. It's our tax money building those museums.

What do you think Israel is about?

The Holocaust is debated precisely because of the weight of the subject and it's massive consequences.


Holy god. You refuse to be "suffocated" and then you refer to Zyklon B?? Do you understand irony?

Gassing by Zyklon B is entirely possible. Where did you decide it wasn't?

Einsatzgruppen -- come on, can't you look anything up? Means essentially "special assignment teams." They were really, really good at their jobs.

Modern Germany, to its credit, has recognized its special responsibility. They also pay non-Jewish surviving slave laborers, by the way. Including those wily Slavs.

Your statements are beyond belief. Barely minor league.

[SDC]

That is only so because we are told that Jews were gassed in gas chambers and shoved into ovens which is what is being disputed.

Well I like to know then what really happened in the the US. Were they not forced into labor and such as was the case in Germany?

No, the murder of approx 6 mln Jews and many millions of non-Jews is not disputed by anyone serious.

I'll defer to others about the detention of the Japanese-Americans. Not my province.

[SDC]

I admit that the holocaust happened.

I admit Jews were a major if not the major victim.

I debate the total number hideously murdered.

What does that make me?

I can't resist. Breach of Rule 12 removed.

[kageki]

Are you having reading comprehension problems? I did not say Stalin was a great leader. Just not as wack as Hitler. And yes, it was the military virtue of the Russian soldier, more than Stalin's military skills that enabled them to defeat the Germans.

And the Chinese Communists were at least trying to rebuild China for the benfit of the Chinese, rather than for the Japanese.

What Japan did to China and Korea was inexcusable.

This is where I differ with you greatly. I think Stalin was as sick as Hitler. Communists were sick bastards who shortly after became mortal enemies of the US.

Why would the Chinese try to do something for the Japanese? What kind of logic is that in an attempt to defend China? How well do you think China has done today with their Communist ideals?

Any atrocities are inexcusable. Why don't you go tell the Chinese to stop persecuting the monks in Burma that is happening today?

[SDC]

Some of the German allies were Slavs: the Bulgarians for example. Slavs were recruited into the Waffen SS.

Cut down by me to the Waffen SS. Yep, they were. Some hated Stalin and the Sovs more than anything else (Russians and Sovs of many sorts). Others thought they could gain independence (Ukraine) but were bitterly disappointed by the Germans' treatment of them. Others were just glad to get out of the Germans' prison camps in which millions of Soviet soldiers died.

Interestingly, many of the Waffen SS Slavic conscripts or volunteers ended up fighting the US-UK-Canadian-Polish forces in France. Whaddaya know.

Waffen SS is the military branch of the SS, by the way, not responsible for the death camps. I figure Magzie is going to use "Waffen SS" existence to "prove" that the SS as a whole wasn't involved in the death camps.

[Darat]

...snip...

Any atrocities are inexcusable. Why don't you go tell the Chinese to stop persecuting the monks in Burma that is happening today?

Er Burma is not China, China does not control the government of Burma, the persecution of opponents to the current military government in Burma are persecuted by fellow Burmese.

[gumboot]

Well I like to know then what really happened in the the US. Were they not forced into labor and such as was the case in Germany?


Belligerents May Utilize the labor of able prisoners of war, according to their rank and aptitude, officers and persons of equivalent status excepted.

Article 27, Geneva Convention of July 27, 1929 (http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/lawofwar/geneva02.htm#art27)

-Gumboot

[SDC]

Oh right, Bulgaria. Magz and Kag, you'll love this bit. While the Germans' Bulgarian allies helped round up and deport to Auschwitz the Greek Jews, they protected their own (Bulgarian) Jews. Isn't that annoying? Don't you feel like calling up King Boris and giving him a piece of your mind?

[SDC]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Sealion

It existed but was postponed indefinitely.

"Following swift victory in the Battle of France, Germany believed the war in the west was won. However, the United Kingdom refused peace talks. "

Darn that UK! Were just like the Poles in your mind; "taunting" Hitler by refusing to surrender?

[SDC]

Any atrocities are inexcusable. Why don't you go tell the Chinese to stop persecuting the monks in Burma that is happening today?

Cut by me to this last bit. Eh? The Chinese are in Burma whoops, Myanmar?

Edit: ach, too late.

[funk de fino]

I thought British servicemen were treated fairly well in the POW camps. At least they were not keep out in the open as Eisenhower did with the German prisoners he held at the end of the war.

See Other Losses by James Bacque.

Unfortunately my grandfather is not here to put you straight but in any case you may take my word for it or you could take the word of the germans who admitted the very things you deny

You won't though because there is something wrong inside your head

[kageki]

I don't think you're Japanese, by the way. That would mean you are non-Aryan by any "definition."

Inside Germany... Yep, Germans did pretty well, for a while. What's a "non-Aryan"? Are Czechs and Poles and Russians "non-Aryan"? He hated them like poison. Almost as much as he hated the Jews, but he didn't have any respect for their brains, so they could wait a bit, and then live in slavery to the Germans.

You think I'm not Japanese because that would mean I'm non-Aryan? By definition I guess it would mean I'm non-Aryan. So what?

What's an Aryan and who is not considered an Aryan or a non-Aryan?

BTW why is it so incredulous that I am Japanese? I was born in Japan from two very Japanese parents. It's as simple as that.

[Darat]

Darn that UK! Were just like the Poles in your mind; "taunting" Hitler by refusing to surrender?

Didn't you know that hundreds of thousands of British people would regularly congregate on the White Cliffs of Dover and shout "nah-nah we ain't surrendering" just to taunt the Germans?

If we hadn't done that I'm sure Germany and its allies would never, ever have killed or harmed a single British person so all those deaths of British (and Commonwealth allies) people were entirely the responsibility of the British because they would not surrender.

What could have been more provocative than not surrendering to an aggressor?

[Belz...]

Himmler’s first interview with an American journalist.
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v18/v18n5p50_Stoddard.html

For centuries, that region and others in eastern Europe have been chronically disturbed by jarring minorities hopelessly mixed up with one another. What we are now trying to do is to separate these quarreling elements in just, constructive fashion.

There is no "just" way to uproot and exile ethnic groups.

[funk de fino]

Wow I had no idea some people really support communism. Why don't you go live in China then?


You've never been there have you?

I have earlier this year and it was wonderful, a huge and expanding economy and wonderful people who love to learn things from the west. Huge skyscrapers and getting more and more like Hong Kong everyday. My company (fron the US) are making huge money over there at the moment, very far from communism.

Not the big red machine you obviously think it is. Every post you have made so far has been full of ignorance and deficient in facts.

You must try harder.

[Belz...]

Who was duped, and of what ? Are you ALSO a Pearl Harbor CTer ?

Would you mind answering that ?

I was born in Japan and moved here when I was a kid.

Well, that answers my OTHER question about Japanese schools...

[funk de fino]

BTW why is it so incredulous that I am Japanese? I was born in Japan from two very Japanese parents. It's as simple as that.

We'll not go into the atrocities committed by your lot during the war then eh?

Probably find you are just as in denial about them as you are about the nazi's

I wondered why you seemed to have a soft spot for them. Cozy bedfellows in the war atrocities game perhaps?

[SDC]

You think I'm not Japanese because that would mean I'm non-Aryan? By definition I guess it would mean I'm non-Aryan. So what?

What's an Aryan and who is not considered an Aryan or a non-Aryan?

BTW why is it so incredulous that I am Japanese? I was born in Japan from two very Japanese parents. It's as simple as that.

Watch the extra negatives, young person. Too many negatives make sentences, in English, really hard to parse. In Slavic languages, by contrast, you can toss negatives in by the ton without ambiguity.

You are the one, I gather, who is concerned about Aryans vs non-Aryans. Those who were agitated on the topic (like the Nazis) were very clear that Aryans did not include East Asians of any variety. I have some vague idea that the Japanese were declared "honorary Aryans" for the duration of the war, by the Germans... Something to do with the Ainu people of the northern island.

What do the self-proclaimed "Aryans" say when an individual of Japanese extraction (as I gather you are) stops by the club and says, "Hey guys, how are ya doin'?"

"Aryan", as a group of people (ethnic group, race, tribe, fan club, whatever you want), does not exist. What does exist is a linguistic distinction; though the word "Aryan" is no longer used, as "Indo-European" is preferred for the large language family.

Nuts. You see how messy it gets with English-language negatives? You've got me thinking about it and I get muddled. Coffee... need more coffee...

[Belz...]

Please remember that the Holocaust came before Israel which completely invalidates your statement.

Unholy mother of Hell! You're so ignorant it syphons my own knowledge!

It turns out the Zionists really did plan out this whole Israel thing including the issue of how to get Jews to move there all based on a whacky religious tale that tells of G-d giving Eretz Israel to the Chosen Ones and trying to rebuild the Temple of Solomon.

Well, if I had any doubt that you were an anti-semite, they're gone, now!

Many people feel the Holocaust serves as a perfect justification for the creation of the state of Israel that was arbitrarily decided between a couple Zionists and the British on foreign territory with indigenous people living on it who have been under brutal occupation of said state with a racist policy against non-Jews since then.

Actually, it had been in discussion for a few decades before the war. Don't you read anything ?

But what if the Holocaust was exaggerated? What if the Nazis didn't gas Jews in gas chambers and burned them alive in ovens?

Then that would imply the most massive creation of fake evidence in the history of mankind. Do you know of Occam's Razor ?

The extermination camps were really crematoriums that burned dead bodies to help stop the spread of typhus.

Not according to everyone who lived in those horrific camps.

[Belz...]

So this Ian Kershaw guy is quite the hero for you huh?

Ad Hominem.

It seems the contents of his books are controversial. Aren't there more then one historian out there?

Yes. Most of them disagree with you.

You're actually defending Stalin and Communists? Wow. You don't find a problem with that?

Nice dodge. Please, make every effort NOT to adress his points.

Just wondering if it would be appropriate to call you a Communist from now.

Well, you seem to be fond of labeling, so go right ahead.

Wow I had no idea some people really support communism.

Then you haven't been out of your basement, much.

[Belz...]

It was called resettlement and they did have plans to resettle the Jewish population to Palestine. Why do you spend so much effort to transport people only to kill them?

:rolleyes:

One of the survivors to appear on the section about the camps talks about the gassing. Did he actually witness them die?

Maybe you should read Marie Claude Vaillant-Couturier's testimony at Nuremberg. It's quite... educational. According to her testimony, Jewish babies were drowned as soon as they were born.

[SDC]

Something of a side note, but I think relevant. It's frequently said that while old ex-communists are almost impossible to shut up about their past beliefs and affiliations, old nazis are almost completely silent about theirs. (Now that I think of it, this was frequently said when I was in graduate school, which was a while ago. Ooof.)

Hitler's architect and party boy Speer was an exception, in terms of telling his story, but it's come to be recognized that Speer and historical truth did not spend much time together.

[AMTMAN]

I see, a brilliant conversationalist you are. It is best to not type and allow others to think one is a fool than to type and prove it.

Sorry if the truth hurts.

[kageki]

We'll not go into the atrocities committed by your lot during the war then eh?

Probably find you are just as in denial about them as you are about the nazi's

I wondered why you seemed to have a soft spot for them. Cozy bedfellows in the war atrocities game perhaps?

Since this thread is about the Holocaust there should be no need to get into it in the first place.

Well if soft spot as in it was simply my country then yes. funk what is your nationality?

Do you also recall that Japan was ultimately decimated by the US? Would you like to know the stories of my parent's childhood in a ravaged, post-WWII Japan or would you even care?

My American friend used to explain to me from a documentary he saw on Discovery about how the Japanese tossed babies on bayonettes and other acts of atrocities with a gleeful smile. Yeah they were sick. How can I deny it happened? I am however interested to know exactly what happened.

Would you also like to talk about the genocide of Native Americans or the Indian Removal Act?

[Darat]

Since this thread is about the Holocaust there should be no need to get into it in the first place.

...snip...

If atrocities carried out by other participants in WWII have no place in this discussion what relevance was there to you binging up China and Burma today to the discussion?

[MG1962]

My American friend used to explain to me from a documentary he saw on Discovery about how the Japanese tossed babies on bayonettes and other acts of atrocities with a gleeful smile. Yeah they were sick. How can I deny it happened? I am however interested to know exactly what happened.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanking_Massacre

[Drudgewire]

Wow I had no idea some people really support communism.
Your having no idea about reality seems to be a common theme in this thread. :p

[JEROME DA GNOME]

No, the murder of approx 6 mln Jews and many millions of non-Jews is not disputed by anyone serious.

Do you think that might have anything to do with the possibility of incarceration and ridicule?

[Nick Terry]

Do you think that might have anything to do with the possibility of incarceration and ridicule?

Ridicule, yes. Incarceration, no, because 95% of the world's nations don't prosecute the mentally ill morons known as Holocaust deniers.

:)

[Darat]

Do you think that might have anything to do with the possibility of incarceration and ridicule?

Ridicule yes, although to be honest the type of people I've seen that try and deny the Holocaust probably aren't too concerned about how ridiculous they look.

[kageki]

Maybe you should read Marie Claude Vaillant-Couturier's testimony at Nuremberg. It's quite... educational. According to her testimony, Jewish babies were drowned as soon as they were born.


Why do you respond to a question about the gassing with an example of forced abortions?


The specific event being questioned is the gas chambers. Were there really gas chambers?

The only thing we see is a gas chamber that was made by the Soviets. The rest is witness testimonies and forensic evidence that is hotly contested.

No one ever seems to have actually seen the prisoners die. Only that they were lined up naked to be entered into the showers and heard screams. Not much is talked about how they got rid of the bodies afterwards which resulted from the use of a lethal gas. Is there any difficulties in moving large amounts of dead bodies that remain to exude the lethal gas that it absorbed?

http://www.adelaideinstitute.org/Auschwitz/truth.htm

Are we to believe that all these facilities at Auschwitz were just for Nazis? They even had 16 orchestras, but we are told the Nazis played classical music which consisted mostly of Jewish prisoners so they can fool the prisoners when they were really going to be gassed.

We are also told that the gas chambers were disguised to look like showers so they can fool the prisoners when they were really going to gas them.

We also know that the Nazis did use Zyklon B gas to delouse prisoners.

It just seems rather elaborate on the part of the Nazis that they would go that far just to execute prisoners in gas chambers. They had orchestras?

http://www.cympm.com/orkest.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girl_orchestra_of_Auschwitz
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/auschwitz_orch.html
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/images/auschwitz_orch.jpg

Prisoners' orchestra during a Sunday concert for the SS-men in Auschwitz.
The orchestra was probably conducted by the inmate Franciszek Nierychlo

[JEROME DA GNOME]

Ridicule, yes. Incarceration, no, because 95% of the world's nations don't prosecute the mentally ill morons known as Holocaust deniers.

:)

Thank you for being honest and admitting that study of the holocaust with any variance from the standard is taboo.

[Darat]

Thank you for being honest and admitting that study of the holocaust with any variance from the standard is taboo.

He didn't.

[JEROME DA GNOME]

Ridicule yes, although to be honest the type of people I've seen that try and deny the Holocaust probably aren't too concerned about how ridiculous they look.

That is the thing that intrigues me. If one is to conclude based on evidence that 5 million were murdered, one is claimed a DENIER. I see nothing like this in the study of any other aspect of history.

[Nick Terry]

Thank you for being honest and admitting that study of the holocaust with any variance from the standard is taboo.

Excuse me, where did I "admit" something I did not actually say?

Reported.

[TheRedWorm]

I know I have not participated in this thread, but I must say, Jerome, it is not the number. If you say that 5 million died, not 6 million, that is not being a denier. Being a denier is more akin to... well, to use a crappy analogy: a truther isn't someone who says that no one died on 9/11. A truther is someone who says it was a CD, or space beams, or indestructible Israelites, or something equally silly.

[Darat]

That is the thing that intrigues me. If one is to conclude based on evidence that 5 million were murdered, one is claimed a DENIER. I see nothing like this in the study of any other aspect of history.

You are not commenting on what I actually posted, constructing and argument for someone else and then arguing against that is known as a "strawman".

[JEROME DA GNOME]

Excuse me, where did I "admit" something I did not actually say?

Reported.

Are you kidding?

The conversation you entered was the reasoning behind there not being anyone "serious" disputing the claim of 6 million. I proposed ridicule as the reasoning behind this and you agree with this assessment.

I was complementing you on your honesty.

:confused:

[JEROME DA GNOME]

You are not commenting on what I actually posted, constructing and argument for someone else and then arguing against that is known as a "strawman".

I was not making an argument against what you wrote. I was commenting on my thinking initiated by what you wrote.

Everything is not an argument. Maybe I am confused. I am attempting to have conversation.

[Darat]

That is the thing that intrigues me. If one is to conclude based on evidence that 5 million were murdered, one is claimed a DENIER. I see nothing like this in the study of any other aspect of history.

Given your comment I apologise for misconstruing this post originally.

I do not see what you claim. There have been many debates between historians over the decades over exactly how many people (of whatever group) were exterminated and depending on their own classifications many respected historians have different figures for different groups. In a sad way it does not matter if there were 5 or 6 million people exterminated the magnitude doesn't change.

What is ridiculed and yes is even against the law in a very few countries is the claim that mass extermination of millions of people did not happen.

[JEROME DA GNOME]

I know I have not participated in this thread, but I must say, Jerome, it is not the number. If you say that 5 million died, not 6 million, that is not being a denier.

This is what I find unusual about this subject. Any thought or evidence that seems to dispute any aspect of the holocaust is retorted with claims of denier and other sorts of name-calling, and then is extrapolated into the desire of the denier wanting to destroy Israel and/or Jews.

Leftysergeant gave an honest answer in that he believes that the subject is so important that any question of the facts could lead to a resurgence of the ideals of the Nazis.

[Belz...]

Why do you respond to a question about the gassing with an example of forced abortions?

I'm not. I'm suggesting you read up on the subject.

You're the one who's saying the Nazis weren't all that bad. So, how about those newborn babies ?

The specific event being questioned is the gas chambers. Were there really gas chambers?

Aside from people who weren't there, no one seems to dispute that.

Heck, even the Nazis admitted to it.

No one ever seems to have actually seen the prisoners die.

Seeing them die would've meant being in the "showers" with them, would it not ?

Only that they were lined up naked to be entered into the showers and heard screams.

So, what ? You think the water was too cold ?

You're just a Nazi apologist, now.

We are also told that the gas chambers were disguised to look like showers so they can fool the prisoners when they were really going to gas them.

We also know that the Nazis did use Zyklon B gas to delouse prisoners.

It just seems rather elaborate on the part of the Nazis that they would go that far just to execute prisoners in gas chambers. They had orchestras?

This is an argument from personal incredulity. Do you have any actual evidence that puts the "official" version in question ?

[Belz...]

Shouldn't you rename yourself JEROME DA TROLL, or something ? :D

[JEROME DA GNOME]

Given your comment I apologise for misconstruing this post originally.

Thank you. I also apologize if I have misunderstood what others have written. I try to re-read in the context of the conversation that to which I respond.

[Nick Terry]

Are you kidding?

No, I'm not. This isn't the first time you've misrepresented someone else's argument on this thread. Darat saw that you had twisted my words straight away, see above.

The conversation you entered was the reasoning behind there not being anyone "serious" disputing the claim of 6 million. I proposed ridicule as the reasoning behind this and you agree with this assessment.

SDC was in fact referring to the murder of 'approx' six million and millions of others. It seems you think that the Six Million figure is either sacred or taboo, which it is not, otherwise Raul Hilberg (who calculated 5.1 million in 1961 and stuck by it until his death this summer) would be excoriated as a 'denier' instead of lauded and elevated to the AAAS and invited to sit on the USHMC, etc etc etc.

Clearly, if you are unfamiliar with Raul Hilberg's estimate then you don't know very much about this subject, and would benefit from reading his standard work The Destruction of European Jews.

Now be off with you.

[JEROME DA GNOME]

Shouldn't you rename yourself JEROME DA TROLL, or something ? :D

If you think what your implication here is true, than would the above post mean you are baiting?

[TheRedWorm]

This is what I find unusual about this subject. Any thought or evidence that seems to dispute any aspect of the holocaust is retorted with claims of denier and other sorts of name-calling, and then is extrapolated into the desire of the denier wanting to destroy Israel and/or Jews.

Leftysergeant gave an honest answer in that he believes that the subject is so important that any question of the facts could lead to a resurgence of the ideals of the Nazis.


Well, also, you have to look at some of the facts that deniers debate. I mean only 300,000 Jews dead? Cyanide can't kill people? (Yes, I have heard that before, though not online, so I can't give a link, sorry.) And some other really outrageous things should get someone rightfully branded as a denier. I know that sometimes the person honestly doesn't know any better, but still.

[JEROME DA GNOME]

Well, also, you have to look at some of the facts that deniers debate. I mean only 300,000 Jews dead? Cyanide can't kill people? (Yes, I have heard that before, though not online, so I can't give a link, sorry.) And some other really outrageous things should get someone rightfully branded as a denier. I know that sometimes the person honestly doesn't know any better, but still.

Well; without a internet link to your personal conversations, I can not believe a word you say.;)

Seriously, I am certain that you have heard the claims you describe. I do agree that ridiculous claims should be ridiculed. I think this should go both ways. If I remember correctly the lamp shade and soap stories have been debunked.

[MaGZ]

It wasn't addressed to me, but heck, let's go through this. You have 3 questions. Here are the answers.

The hate is from you, Magz.

"Decedent" means someone who is dead. (Deceased, get it? de·ce·dent (dhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/ibreve.gif-shttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/emacr.gifdhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/prime.gifnt)
n. Law A dead person.) This question makes no sense.


You are closer to a Stalinist than anyone else I hear on this list.

Lefty, sorry. I interrupted. I should back down. I got carried away.

Are you having a good time in discussing this topic?

[MaGZ]

Isn't this the same in the US? Many people say the Nazis could not have been possible without the backing of influential people abroad.

Hitler was also Time's Man of the Year.

That is usually a leftist argument made here in America. The story goes with the claim that American bankers helped finance the rise of Hitler. No doubt there were banking agreements with Germany before Hitler but I just don’t see any Americans being sympathic to Hitler other that Henry Ford. There was just too much anti-Hitler propaganda in America in the 1930's for most people think independently.

[MaGZ]

You think so, huh? Well, recent scholarship has revealed that Pierce didn't even write the sequel, Turner and Hooch.

In a sense there was a sequel. It was called Hunter.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunter_(book)

[uk_dave]

There was just too much anti-Hitler propaganda in America in the 1930's for most people think independently.

Does pro-hitler propaganda allow people to think independently?

In your world, perhaps nothing should ever be reported or stated lest it conflicts with our independence of thought?

Is this what you do? Just make any old crap up and believe it because you're an independent thinker?

Except, of course, your thoughts on any subject are not really original, are they, because you get them all from far right websites, don't you?

[MaGZ]

Does it sting that I'm Black and my fiancee is not only White, but related to Adolph Eichmann? :D

How is she related to Eichmann?

[JimBenArm]

How is she related to Eichmann?
Why, so the goons can hunt them down for being race traitors?

[MaGZ]

You have got to be kidding me. The US was duped into entering the war by Hitler, you do know he declared war on them and not vice versa? As for elaborating on Hitler's offer of peace (not land, PEACE, unless you count his guarantee of the Empire, and you shouldn't) after the fall of Poland, and then of France, would you have believed him? Hitler was well aware than Germany was not prepared for a long term war, and eventually he would have to turn east for his lebensraum. Look up how Hitler felt about the concept of a 2 front war. Hence his "peace' offer.

Hitler might have declared war on America but America had been waging war against Germany using proxies such as Britain and the Soviet Union.

FDR (with his backing from the Jews) was the first to want a US/Germany war.

[beachnut]

Hitler might have declared war on America but America had been waging war against Germany using proxies such as Britain and the Soviet Union.

FDR (with his backing from the Jews) was the first to want a US/Germany war.
Where to you come up with idiot ideas? Are all NeoNAZIs unable to find real information? Your bigoted bias crap is that.

[uk_dave]

FDR (with his backing from the Jews) was the first to want a US/Germany war.

Lucky for him that silly old hitler decided to declare war on the US after the japanese attacked pearl harbour.

No one could ever accuse nazis of being bright.

[MaGZ]

MaGZ why are you bothering asking WHY? What you should be doing is disproving the HUGE amount of evidence that the Holocaust did indeed happen as advertised.

The Holocaust is a belief system like any religion. I really don’t care if someone believes in a Holocaust. I know better.

[JimBenArm]

I wanted war with Germany before that, but couldn't get the Methodists to back me. The Lutherans were going to, but they were too involved with the Dakota Border War. If the Episcopilians hadn't stepped in, and brokered the DMZ between North and South Dakota, who knows what might have happened? We'd all be ice fishing and eating lutefisk!

[WildCat]

The Holocaust is a belief system like any religion. I really don’t care if someone believes in a Holocaust. I know better.
In the first house I lived in (1966-1972) there was a couple across the street who still had the Nazi serial numbers tattooed on their arms from the concentration camp they were in.

Your ignorance is astounding.

[JimBenArm]

The Holocaust is a belief system like any religion. I really don’t care if someone believes in a Holocaust. I know better.
Yes, we've seen your evidence. Unfortunately for you, it's not evidence for what you think.
Maybe someday when you can actually see people for what they are instead of their race, you can have a more mature view of the world. Not that I'm holding my breath for that.

[MaGZ]

As a second generation Japanese-American, I just want to note that the Japanese Internment camps in the Western US were not the same as the Nazi concentration camps.

Yes, they were terrible, but there is no good comparison between the two.

I tend to think they were quite similar. The camps were both established to keep an enemy population in check. I have always maintained if America lost the war to Japan and the Japanese Army came in as liberators, you would have a similar scene as the camps in Europe.

[JimBenArm]

I tend to think they were quite similar. The camps were both established to keep an enemy population in check. I have always maintained if America lost the war to Japan and the Japanese Army came in as liberators, you would have a similar scene as the camps in Europe.
Of course you think that! That's because your thinker is defective!

[MaGZ]

You ideas are pathetic, so the Jews area was the crematoria! . You are just a NAZI with idiot ideas like most NAZIs. You pass on NAZI junk without understanding anything. Pathetic NAZIs like you are too busy labeling everyone else a subhuman, and you missed you are the only ones who qualify.

Is going from a neo-Nazi to a Nazi a promotion?

[westprog]

Hitler might have declared war on America but America had been waging war against Germany using proxies such as Britain and the Soviet Union.

FDR (with his backing from the Jews) was the first to want a US/Germany war.

This is why it's not profitable to debate this kind of thing with the likes of MagZ. The idea that the German invasion of the Soviet Union was some kind of Roosevelt plot is too silly to even start arguing with. Oh, wait, what about those Soviet spies in the White House? They must signify something or other.

[Darat]

Once again I'm going to remind all participants of their Membership Agreement.

I can understand when bigoted Members post their hateful nonsense it can cause high emotions but if you can't post within the constraints of your Membership Agreement don't post.

No one wants to have to take action against Members because they have got upset and I don't want to have to place the thread on [Moderated Status].

[westprog]

I tend to think they were quite similar. The camps were both established to keep an enemy population in check. I have always maintained if America lost the war to Japan and the Japanese Army came in as liberators, you would have a similar scene as the camps in Europe.

Unfortunately the term "concentration camp" is used to refer to extermination facilities like Auschwitz. While it's true that they were, as with the Japanese facilities and the camps established by the British for Boers, designed to concentrate civilian populations. The difference lies in the fact that the German camps were intended to permanently dispose of the population so concentrated.

The Japanese camps in the USA were a disgrace, established for racist reasons with no legitimate security element. The fact that Japanese-Americans were considered loyal enough to carry a rifle, but not loyal enough to sell cheap groceries speaks for itself. But the vast majority of the internees survived unscathed and returned to live in the USA. Simply look at the number of Japanese in California, and the number of Jews in Poland.

This is not addressed to Magz, of course. As with 911 denial, the extreme cases involve denial of facts indistinguishable to the layman from mental illness.

[MaGZ]

The one these questions should have been addressed to is the Fuhrer. What answers did he give when these questions were raised at his war trial?

Oh, there was no trial, because he was already dead.

Well, then, what did the soldier who killed him report? Did he have any last words?

Oh, wait, no soldier killed him. Because he shot himself in the mouth.

Which, it appears, left his Thousand Year Reich rather in the lurch. No defiant statement to inspire his future admirers. No recommendations for how to do it right the next time. When you shoot yourself in the mouth it demonstrates rather graphically that you have nothing to say.

But, cowards do tend to disappoint. Sorry, fans.

(Somewere, in some munitions factory in early 1945, some starving shivering slave laborer inspected the bullets he'd helped to make, coming off the line, and saw, among uncounted thousands of others, the one that would tear Hitler's brain to shreds. I like to think, and I know this is pure wishful whimsy, that the slave took special note of that bullet, somehow recognized where it was bound, perhaps touched it, and that a little bit of a feeling of relief, a hint of a long-forgotten peace of mind, lightened his despair and anger over the mindless waste and futility.)

Respectfully,
Myriad

Hitler did leave us his last political testament.

http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/documents/poltest.htm

[Elizabeth I]

The US only entered the war because they were duped. Otherwise they would have not entered. It also does not seem that Hitler wanted global conquest nor even had the desire to topple England as he viewed their cooperation as necessary.

So those Japanese planes over Pearl Harbor were...what, holograms?

But what if the Holocaust was exaggerated? What if the Nazis didn't gas Jews in gas chambers and burned them alive in ovens?

I believe the ovens were crematoria used for disposing of the bodies after the murders.

Not defending Stalin, as much as I am saying that Hitler was many times more the monster. Stalin was too self-centered to really build a sound socialist state. And he was militarily inept. Had he not rehabilitated Zhukov, we would all have been screwed. It is more a testament to the fighting abilities and courage of the Russian soldier and the brilliance of some of their weapons designers that they were able to hold off the Germans and turn the tide of battle. Those qualified field commanders who managed to survive the purges made the real difference. Stalin was actually in the way a lot in the lead-up to the war.

No, I do not defend the kind of communism practiced in China, either, but it was an improvement over what the Japanese did to China and Korea.

I'm actually a Democrat, but a bit left of FDR.

In terms of sheer numbers, Hitler would appear to have been a piker next to Stalin:

Source List and Detailed Death Tolls for the Twentieth Century Hemoclysm (http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat1.htm)
Soviet Union, Stalin's regime (1924-53): 20,000,000
There are basically two schools of thought when it comes to the number who died at Stalin's hands. There's the "Why doesn't anyone realize that communism is the absolutely worst thing ever to hit the human race, without exception, even worse than both world wars, the slave trade and bubonic plague all put together?" school, and there's the "Come on, stop exaggerating. The truth is horrifying enough without you pulling numbers out of thin air" school. The two schools are generally associated with the right and left wings of the political spectrum, and they often accuse each other of being blinded by prejudice, stubbornly refusing to admit the truth, and maybe even having a hidden agenda. Also, both sides claim that recent access to former Soviet archives has proven that their side is right.

Here are a few illustrative estimates from the Big Numbers school:
Adler, N., Victims of Soviet Terror, 1993 cites these:
Chistyakovoy, V. (Neva, no.10): 20 million killed during the 1930s.
Dyadkin, I.G. (Demograficheskaya statistika neyestestvennoy smertnosti v SSSR 1918-1956 ): 56 to 62 million "unnatural deaths" for the USSR overall, with 34 to 49 million under Stalin.
Gold, John.: 50-60 million.
Davies, Norman (Europe A History, 1998): c. 50 million killed 1924-53, excluding WW2 war losses. This would divide (more or less) into 33M pre-war and 17M after 1939.
Rummel, 1990: 61,911,000 democides in the USSR 1917-87, of which 51,755,000 occurred during the Stalin years. This divides up into:
1923-29: 2,200,000 (plus 1M non-democidal famine deaths)
1929-39: 15,785,000 (plus 2M non-democidal famine)
1939-45: 18,157,000
1946-54: 15,613,000 (plus 333,000 non-democidal famine)
TOTAL: 51,755,000 democides and 3,333,000 non-demo. famine
William Cockerham, Health and Social Change in Russia and Eastern Europe: 50M+
Wallechinsky: 13M (1930-32) + 7M (1934-38)
Cited by Wallechinsky:
Medvedev, Roy (Let History Judge): 40 million.
Solzhenitsyn, Aleksandr: 60 million.
MEDIAN: 51 million for the entire Stalin Era; 20M during the 1930s.

And from the Lower Numbers school:
Nove, Alec ("Victims of Stalinism: How Many?" in J. Arch Getty (ed.) Stalinist Terror: New Perspectives, 1993): 9,500,000 "surplus deaths" during the 1930s.
Cited in Nove:
Maksudov, S. (Poteri naseleniya SSSR, 1989): 9.8 million abnormal deaths between 1926 and 1937.
Tsaplin, V.V. ("Statistika zherty naseleniya v 30e gody" 1989): 6,600,000 deaths (hunger, camps and prisons) between the 1926 and 1937 censuses.
Dugin, A. ("Stalinizm: legendy i fakty" 1989): 642,980 counterrevolutionaries shot 1921-53.
Muskovsky Novosti (4 March 1990): 786,098 state prisoners shot, 1931-53.
Gordon, A. (What Happened in That Time?, 1989, cited in Adler, N., Victims of Soviet Terror, 1993): 8-9 million during the 1930s.
Ponton, G. (The Soviet Era, 1994): cites an 1990 article by Milne, et al., that excess deaths 1926-39 were likely 3.5 million and at most 8 million.
MEDIAN: 8.5 Million during the 1930s.

As you can see, there's no easy compromise between the two schools. The Big Numbers are so high that picking the midpoint between the two schools would still give us a Big Number. It may appear to be a rather pointless argument -- whether it's fifteen or fifty million, it's still a huge number of killings -- but keep in mind that the population of the Soviet Union was 164 million in 1937, so the upper estimates accuse Stalin of killing nearly 1 out of every 3 of his people, an extremely Polpotian level of savagery. The lower numbers, on the other hand, leave Stalin with plenty of people still alive to fight off the German invasion.

Although it's too early to be taking sides with absolute certainty, a consensus seems to be forming around a death toll of 20 million. This would adequately account for all documented nastiness without straining credulity...


Even though it might be argued that Stalin had 29 years to work his "magic," as compared to Hitler's mere 12 years in power, Stalin was still a sociopath on a mammoth scale.

How well do you think China has done today with their Communist ideals?

As I understand it, China is consistently among the fastest-growing economies in the world.

BTW why is it so incredulous that I am Japanese? I was born in Japan from two very Japanese parents. It's as simple as that.

The concept that you are Japanese is incredible, not incredulous - the other posters are incredulous that you are Japanese because they find your assertion [I]incredible [incredible: so extraordinary as to seem impossible: incredible speed. 2. not credible; hard to believe; unbelievable: The plot of the book is incredible.]

[B]People are incredulous; statements, concepts, ideas or assertions are incredible.

(Both definitions from dictionary.com (http://dictionary.reference.com/))

Do you also recall that Japan was ultimately decimated by the US? Would you like to know the stories of my parent's childhood in a ravaged, post-WWII Japan or would you even care?

Frankly, I think the suffering of your parents can be laid squarely at the feet of the warlords who signed on for the Axis cause. And I doubt if they cared much at all.

[MaGZ]

Then please explain the conquering of Belgium, Holland, Denmark, Norway, Luxemburg, and France, as well as the attempted conquering of Britain. All of these nations were on Germany's western front. Poland, Russia, etc., are on the eastern front. Couldn't anyone in the Nazi regime read a map?

The opening of the Western Front was forced upon Germany with the declaration of war by France and Britain upon her. If Germany did not invade Norway, Britain would.

Those little countries you mentioned, they were just in the way.

[JimBenArm]

The opening of the Western Front was forced upon Germany with the declaration of war by France and Britain upon her. If Germany did not invade Norway, Britain would.

Those little countries you mentioned, they were just in the way.
Well, the nerve of them! Standing there in the way of Greater Naziville, and all its nice niceness with flowers and pink ponies! They deserved to be taken over, for daring to be sitting there in the way of all the niceness and peaceful, funloving goosesteppers!

[Father Dagon]

Does it sting that I'm Black and my fiancee is not only White, but related to Adolph Eichmann? :DUntil there's a real BAR - Black Aryan Resistance, we'll have to make do with this riveting social drama (http://www.brainsonfilm.com/blackgest.html).The opening of the Western Front was forced upon Germany with the declaration of war by France and Britain upon her. If Germany did not invade Norway, Britain would.

Those little countries you mentioned, they were just in the way.If I don't raep the girl with the delicious flat chest, somebody else will.

[westprog]

Even though it might be argued that Stalin had 29 years to work his "magic," as compared to Hitler's mere 12 years in power, Stalin was still a sociopath on a mammoth scale.


It's important to note that to claim that Stalin is worse than Hitler is nothing to do with Holocaust denial. I've seen people attacked as Nazi sympathisers for simply pointing out what Stalin did.

Stalin, Hitler and Mao dominate the twentieth century by the harm they did.

[MaGZ]

Controversial? By who, never mind you never seem to mention those sorts of things. He is regarded as one of the greatest historians alive and his biography of Hitler is considered the definitive work, replacing Bullock's (you seem to forget I have mentioned him, no surprise, I have seen your limited comprehension in action) biography. Should I bother to list his awards and work up to his knighthood? Yeah very controversial. Not at all like the crap you spout. I have also cited Ambrose, we are now up to 3 historians, to your zero. I could add Watt and Greenberg but what's the point. It's not like you would actually read real history, it won't support your hatred. And it would be difficult to find a student of the period who doesn't regard Kershaw as someone to emulate. His scholarship is awe-inspiring, and reminds me how trivial my knowledge is. Imagine where you would place on that scale.

Wikipedia is a joke in any university I have attended or worked in. I have never been in a history department that would allow it's use as a source. There goes the idea that it is widely accepted. This is easy enough to confirm, drop by a local university history department and ask them. While you're are it, you might repeat your "summary" to them, Historians enjoy a good laugh. I am quite done being the least bit courteous to you, you are not trying to learn, nor are you seeking the truth. You are simply trying to justify your racism, and are far out of your league here. You have repeatedly shown how ignorant you are of the basics, once again referring to that infantile summary of yours. It's time to invoke the slaughter rule.

What do you think of John Toland's book on Hitler?

[Elizabeth I]

It's important to note that to claim that Stalin is worse than Hitler is nothing to do with Holocaust denial. I've seen people attacked as Nazi sympathisers for simply pointing out what Stalin did.

Stalin, Hitler and Mao dominate the twentieth century by the harm they did.

Absolutely, and I should have stated that specifically.

[WildCat]

Do you also recall that Japan was ultimately decimated by the US? Would you like to know the stories of my parent's childhood in a ravaged, post-WWII Japan or would you even care?
Has Japan come to grips with their wartime atrocities in China yet? Korea? Burma? The Phillippines? Everyplace else they attempted to bring into the "Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere"? The atrocities they committed on POW's? Or does Japanese history still skip over that part of history?

[Belz...]

If you think what your implication here is true, than would the above post mean you are baiting?

It just seems to me like you're just questioning for questioning's sake. That's the textbook definition of a troll, and "gnome" was too easy a word to modify into another D&D critter for me to pass up.

[Belz...]

There was just too much anti-Hitler propaganda in America in the 1930's for most people think independently.

"To think independently". Your truther background betrays you.

FDR (with his backing from the Jews) was the first to want a US/Germany war.

Yeah, because, like, without the Joooos, the US would've never gone to war against Germany! :rolleyes:

The Holocaust is a belief system like any religion.

Evidence ?

I know better.

Now THAT is a belief system.

[Belz...]

The opening of the Western Front was forced upon Germany with the declaration of war by France and Britain upon her. If Germany did not invade Norway, Britain would.

Those little countries you mentioned, they were just in the way.

Belgium was "just in the way" ? Is anything you say ever right ?

[twinstead]

MaGZ the belief that the Holocaust DIDN'T happen is a belief system like any religion. The only difference is that unlike belief in a supreme being, YOUR religion can be proved wrong by a HUGE amount of contrary evidence--evidence that you must ignore to keep your racist bias alive.

It depresses me to no end to know people like you exist--it means that something, somewhere, in our society has failed.

[Belz...]

Something. He'll probably say "propaganda".

[JEROME DA GNOME]

It just seems to me like you're just questioning for questioning's sake.

Anything like this question of yours:

Is anything you say ever right ?

No, your question seems to have a malicious intent.

[abenja1]

After reading some of the attempts to deny the Holocaust by a small amount of posters here, I hope that the APA at some point characterizes Holocaust denial as a mental disorder.

[JEROME DA GNOME]

After reading some of the attempts to deny the Holocaust by a small amount of posters here, I hope that the APA at some point characterizes Holocaust denial as a mental disorder.

What an insightful addition to the topic.

[abenja1]

What an insightful addition to the topic.

HAHAHAHAH. You're pretty funny. Coming from the same person who failed to prove that you could get away with yelling fire in a crowded building but instead got shot down by the people here who actually know the law.

[TheRedWorm]

Welcome, abenja1!

[funk de fino]

Since this thread is about the Holocaust there should be no need to get into it in the first place.

Well if soft spot as in it was simply my country then yes. funk what is your nationality?

Do you also recall that Japan was ultimately decimated by the US? Would you like to know the stories of my parent's childhood in a ravaged, post-WWII Japan or would you even care?

My American friend used to explain to me from a documentary he saw on Discovery about how the Japanese tossed babies on bayonettes and other acts of atrocities with a gleeful smile. Yeah they were sick. How can I deny it happened? I am however interested to know exactly what happened.

Would you also like to talk about the genocide of Native Americans or the Indian Removal Act?

If this thread is about the holocauset then why stick your nose in when it is obvious you have limited knowledge on any of the subject matter and seem to see the nazis as wronged as you obvously think your own people were also

I'm scottish and have enough stories of atricties carried out by the english hundreds of years ago in my country

Difference between me and you is I have let it lie. I am not a racist or a bigot or a denier of history. I will always be a better human being than you.

If your lot did not want to be decimated by the US they should bloody well have not attacked them. It would have saved a lot of the cowards amongst them have to cut their stomachs open and kill themselves when defeat stared them in the eyes

[Redtail]

How is she related to Eichmann?

Cousin on her mother's side.

[JEROME DA GNOME]

HAHAHAHAH. You're pretty funny. Coming from the same person who failed to prove that you could get away with yelling fire in a crowded building but instead got shot down by the people here who actually know the law.

I will still stick with what Oliver Wendall Holmes said in the supreme court decision. You are welcome to the opinions of others.

[Redtail]

Until there's a real BAR - Black Aryan Resistance, we'll have to make do with this riveting social drama (http://www.brainsonfilm.com/blackgest.html).
:jaw-dropp I'm a fan of "Blaxploitation" flicks and have never even heard of that movie... I must find it now.

[Corsair 115]

The opening of the Western Front was forced upon Germany with the declaration of war by France and Britain upon her. If Germany did not invade Norway, Britain would.

Those little countries you mentioned, they were just in the way.Well, doesn't that make the Nazi regime a swell bunch! Stomp on a few neutral countries, conquer them, and occupy them. Yep, what a great group.

[Father Dagon]

:jaw-dropp I'm a fan of "Blaxploitation" flicks and have never even heard of that movie... I must find it now.Then you've really missed something. I've seen it on the silver screen (film club, I'm not that old.) Lee Frost for teh win!

[tsig]

Nick, not trying to be rude, but you are asking him for sources when you gave none yourself.

It's all the Jews fault. If they didn't exist we wouldn't have to kill them.

[milesalpha]

What do you think of John Toland's book on Hitler?

Kind of depends on what level you want to regard it. It is well written, and reasonably accurate. It would be a decent lightweight primer for those who want a taste without the heavy scholarship. Solid pop culture biography, which is what it was intended to be.

On a scholarly level it would be kind of a poor choice. Kershaw and Bullock are certainly better, if not as engaging to read. Toran is not a historian, he does not purport to be a historian, nor does he concentrate on Nazi Germany as a writer. It would be unreasonable to expect the same level of analysis as you would from a historian on the period. The interviews are very valuable but are accepted at face value. It's age now also counts a bit against it, a lot of new work has been produced since. I would put him in the same boat as Shirer, certainly a work of some value but not something I'd rely on solely or primarily.

[Myriad]

Hitler did leave us his last political testament.


Yeah, he wrote a suicide note.

In which he lied.

How pathetic is that, telling lies in your suicide note? You'd think a suicide note would be one of the few circumstances that one can be completely honest with oneself and the world without concern for the consequences. But he lied anyhow.

What a putz.

Respectfully,
Myriad

[tsig]

I wanted war with Germany before that, but couldn't get the Methodists to back me. The Lutherans were going to, but they were too involved with the Dakota Border War. If the Episcopilians hadn't stepped in, and brokered the DMZ between North and South Dakota, who knows what might have happened? We'd all be ice fishing and eating lutefisk!

I like lutefish.

[tarrou]

Having read as much of this thread as I could stomach, why do all of the intelligent members of this board still debate MaGZ?

I am probably not the first to suggest this, but would it not be wise to
ignore him in pityful silence?

Is he not clearly beyond any sort of reasoning/help?

[timhau]

I like lutefish.

That makes you the third most disgusting person in this thread.

[westprog]

Absolutely, and I should have stated that specifically.

I found it obvious from the post that you deplored both Stalin and Hitler. But no harm in restating the obvious.

[westprog]

Has Japan come to grips with their wartime atrocities in China yet? Korea? Burma? The Phillippines? Everyplace else they attempted to bring into the "Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere"? The atrocities they committed on POW's? Or does Japanese history still skip over that part of history?

The Japanese have that big atomic alibi. While they've eschewed their evil ways, they haven't quite been able to do what the Germans did, and accept that they were evil.

[Gazpacho]

Why do you respond to a question about the gassing with an example of forced abortions?

The specific event being questioned is the gas chambers. Were there really gas chambers?
Why did you reply without reading the testimony you were advised to read? Is it a tremendous problem for you to type (Vaillant-Couturier testimony) into Google?

The only thing we see is a gas chamber that was made by the Soviets. The rest is witness testimonies and forensic evidence that is hotly contested.
It's hotly contested by unqualified charlatans.

Not much is talked about how they got rid of the bodies afterwards which resulted from the use of a lethal gas.
Plenty has been said about it. Mme. Vaillant-Couturier's testimony, for example.

Is there any difficulties in moving large amounts of dead bodies that remain to exude the lethal gas that it absorbed?
No difficulties at all if you have the proper equipment.

They even had 16 orchestras, but we are told the Nazis played classical music which consisted mostly of Jewish prisoners so they can fool the prisoners when they were really going to be gassed.

We are also told that the gas chambers were disguised to look like showers so they can fool the prisoners when they were really going to gas them.

We also know that the Nazis did use Zyklon B gas to delouse prisoners.
We also know that by 1942, SS general Harald Turner was so familiar with "delousing" as a euphemism for murder, that he used it jokingly in one of his letters.

It just seems rather elaborate on the part of the Nazis that they would go that far just to execute prisoners in gas chambers.
Yes, it was a very elaborate. Your point?

[JimBenArm]

That makes you the third most disgusting person in this thread.
Behind me and who else?

I'm assuming the deniers aren't counted as people.

[milesalpha]

Yeah, he wrote a suicide note.

In which he lied.

How pathetic is that, telling lies in your suicide note? You'd think a suicide note would be one of the few circumstances that one can be completely honest with oneself and the world without concern for the consequences. But he lied anyhow.

What a putz.

Respectfully,
Myriad

Well it was more than a note. It was his dictated political testament. Beyond that I certainly agree with your other assessment. He lied in much of it, or presented what was left of his delusion. In many ways it's like Mein Kampf, rambling, often non-sensical, and predicting a future that is even mor eludicrous now than it was then.
For those interested there was a brilliant film call Der Untertag made about Hitler's last 10 days. Won a few awards a couple of years ago. It is largely drawn from testimony of Hitler's private secretary. Incredibly well done film, best watched in the German with subtitles. (And I am very bitchy about historical movies, I can count the ones I like on one hand, and before any foolish questions, no I didn't care for Schindler's List).

[tarrou]

Well it was more than a note. It was his dictated political testament. Beyond that I certainly agree with your other assessment. He lied in much of it, or presented what was left of his delusion. In many ways it's like Mein Kampf, rambling, often non-sensical, and predicting a future that is even mor eludicrous now than it was then.
For those interested there was a brilliant film call Der Untertag made about Hitler's last 10 days. Won a few awards a couple of years ago. It is largely drawn from testimony of Hitler's private secretary. Incredibly well done film, best watched in the German with subtitles. (And I am very bitchy about historical movies, I can count the ones I like on one hand, and before any foolish questions, no I didn't care for Schindler's List).

The problem with 'Der Untergang' and for that matter 'Schindler's List' is that they deal with events too close to our collective past.

The thought that present or future generations of youth are going to grow up with all of their knowledge of Hitler and the holocaust derived from movies, makes me very sad.

(recently a poll here in Denmark showed that a growing number of people below the age of eighteen, had doubts that the holocaust ever happened (still a small number, mind you). Their source? Tha Intarwebs!! - If young people are that gullible, surely they will understand a movie as 'Der Untergang' as a documentary about an impotent weak personality, rather than the dramatization of the last days of a monster?)

[SDC]

If you think what your implication here is true, than would the above post mean you are baiting?

Just for once, could you please make a clear, declarative, positive statement? This is twisted to the point of incomprehensibility.

[SDC]

Do you think that might have anything to do with the possibility of incarceration and ridicule?

No, I don't.

[milesalpha]

The problem with 'Der Untergang' and for that matter 'Schindler's List' is that they deal with events too close to our collective past.

The thought that present or future generations of youth are going to grow up with all of their knowledge of Hitler and the holocaust derived from movies, makes me very sad.

(recently a poll here in Denmark showed that a growing number of people below the age of eighteen, had doubts that the holocaust ever happened (still a small number, mind you). Their source? Tha Intarwebs!! - If young people are that gullible, surely they will understand a movie as 'Der Untergang' as a documentary about an impotent weak personality, rather than the dramatization of the last days of a monster?)

The first part of I realy don't understand, you don't seem to want to question the actual history presented, but rather some odd qualifier that, frankly, makes little sense to me.

I hate to shock you but future generations will not learn history from movies, they don't learn it at all now. And the youth market is decidely unfriendly to this sort of film, no rap sound track and all. It appears more plausible that the youth gravitate to youtube videos I need only point at some of the posts by our closet neo-nazis as proof. To learn the subject requires considerable reading, real reading. Not from Wikipedia or some insignificant web page but rather the books and journal articles from real historians, not to mention a healthy dose of direct document examination. As someone who has done a hell of a lot more reading that most on the subject, and still realizes what a minor command I have of it, I find it silly to think the general public will ever have a real grasp. It would be like expecting them to learn gall bladder surgery on their own.
History has often been compared to science. Among the arts it has the highest requirements for empirical proof. It tracks its theories and their evolutions. The history of slavery, the history of Native relations, the history of the rise and fall of empires (unabashed Kennedy fan) and many other fields amply demonstrate this notion.

Der Untergang is undeniably pop culture, but its better pop culture than most. And much more accessible to the average person than the reading necessary for in depth understanding.

[kageki]

So those Japanese planes over Pearl Harbor were...what, holograms?


How clever Elizabeth! It's amazing that this real fleet traveling from across the planet was never detected by the US radar system when even Australia warned the US about the Japanese fleet heading to Pearl Harbor? I guess the US never did anything to provoke Japan into attacking?


I believe the ovens were crematoria used for disposing of the bodies after the murders.

Which they did. Which also doesn't mean the Nazis gassed a ton of Jews in gas chambers alive.


Frankly, I think the suffering of your parents can be laid squarely at the feet of the warlords who signed on for the Axis cause. And I doubt if they cared much at all.

I mentioned that to illustrate the total lack of empathy that exists in the world in discussing history. Clearly your statement seems to be exemplary of that. You're saying they deserved to suffer?

It must be a great feeling to know when the US does anything it's because they are "liberating" countries. I guess building military bases in foreign countries is for their "protection".

[Gazpacho]

It's amazing that this real fleet traveling from across the planet was never detected by the US radar system when even Australia warned the US about the Japanese fleet heading to Pearl Harbor?
1. Prior to the Pearl Harbor attack, US radar technology had never been proven in battle.
2. Even so, the Pearl Harbor radar detected the Japanese force about an hour away.
3. Since none of the officers were trained in how to use the radar effectively, they didn't respond.

Anyway, I see where this is going. Standard Japanese WW2 revisionism. It wasn't the Empire's fault that they attacked the US and were humiliated in return. The US devil made them do it! The US made it so easy to attack, how could Japan not follow through?

Which also doesn't mean the Nazis gassed a ton of Jews in gas chambers alive.
Read the Vaillant-Couturier testimony.

[milesalpha]

1. Prior to the Pearl Harbor attack, US radar technology had never been proven in battle.
2. Even so, the Pearl Harbor radar detected the Japanese force about an hour away.
3. Since none of the officers were trained in how to use the radar effectively, they didn't respond.

Anyway, I see where this is going. Standard Japanese WW2 revisionism. It wasn't the Empire's fault that they attacked the US and were humiliated in return. The US devil made them do it!


Read the Vaillant-Couturier testimony.

Heh its kageki, the slaughter rule is in effect. I think he has a rule that he must put at least one really stupid thing in each post. I loved the part about the "American radar system", which was actually a truck sitting on Hawaii. He has absolutely no clue what the state of American radar development was at the time, but he's going to comment on it anyway. I wonder if he even knows what the strategic thinking of the Japanse was at the time.

[Bell]

I thought Radar was introduced in the Korean war? :confused:

[CptColumbo]

I thought Radar was introduced in the Korean war? :confused:Nah, the British used it in the Battle of Britain.

[Redtail]

Nah, the British used it in the Battle of Britain.

Wrong Radar.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/9c/RadarMASH.jpg

[CptColumbo]

Wrong Radar.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/9c/RadarMASH.jpg

Oh, gotcha.

[Bell]

Nah, the British used it in the Battle of Britain.

Heh, note the capital 'R' I used in Radar! ;)

ETA: Thanks Redtail, I started to think all my jokes are bad :)

[CptColumbo]

Shouldn't the usual radar be "RADAR?" As an acronym for Radio Detection and Ranging.

[brodski]

Shouldn't the usual radar be "RADAR?" As an acronym for Radio Detection and Ranging.

In that case it should be RaDaR, but anyway, it wasn't RADAR, it was CARROTS ;)

(now there is a real propaganda myth which has taken hold in the public mind...)

[leftysergeant]

What the Japanese and German aggression had in common was that both nations saw themselves as the rightful rulers over a major portion of the world, and took steps to set themselves up as such. The deaths of the indigenous peoples was of little consequence, because they were lesser sorts of folk than the people of the invading nations.

Why, for instance, had the Japanese any territorial interest in China or Korea?

I won't even excuse our involvement in Iraq, given that the PNAC manifesto states that we should use our status as a military power to maintain "mastery" over events in the region. That idea should have died with Hitler.

[MaGZ]

Well, doesn't that make the Nazi regime a swell bunch! Stomp on a few neutral countries, conquer them, and occupy them. Yep, what a great group.

Did you know the US invaded Iceland in WW II?

[Father Dagon]

Did you know the US invaded Iceland in WW II?Was 1/6 of the icelanders killed during the occupation?

[ktesibios]

How clever Elizabeth! It's amazing that this real fleet traveling from across the planet was never detected by the US radar system when even Australia warned the US about the Japanese fleet heading to Pearl Harbor? I guess the US never did anything to provoke Japan into attacking?

You've obviously never heard of George Elliot, Joseph Lockard or Kermit Tyler, since you're laboring under the delusion that the USA had a comprehensive early-warning radar network in operation in December 1941.

In fact, they didn't. The equipment was still relatively crude and cranky, operators were still being trained and the USA was a long way from grasping the lessons the British had learned about how to make radar part of an integrated air-defense system.

In fact, the Japanese attack was picked up by an SCR-270 radar set when it was still about 130 miles away, but the only officer at the information center to which the operators reported the contact dismissed it.

The first SR-270's became functional in July, 1941 and by November Bergquist only had a small team established and a set of four SCR-270-B's stationed around Oahu with one unit in reserve. They were placed on the central north shore (Haleiwa), Opana Point (northern tip), in the northwest at the highest point- Mount Kaala, and one in the southeast corner at Koko Head. However there was no real communications system or reporting chain set up. At one point the operators of one of the sets were instructed to phone in reports from a local gas station some distance down the road. By explicit order by General Short, the radar stations were to only be operated for four hours per day and to shut down by 7AM each day.Unit s/n 012 was at Opana Point, Hawaii on the morning of the seventh of December, 1941 manned by two privates, Elliot and Joseph Lockard. That morning the set was supposed to be shut down, but the soldiers decided to get in additional training time in since the truck scheduled to take them to breakfast was late in arriving. At 7:02 they saw the Japanese aircraft approaching Oahu at a distance of 130 miles and Lockard telephoned the information center at Fort Shafter and reported "Large number of planes coming in from the north, three points east". The operator taking his report passed on the information repeating that the operator emphasized he had never seen anything like it, and it was an "an awful big flight."

From that point on the sighting was ignored. The report was passed on to an untrained officer who had arrived only a week earlier. He thought they had detected a flight of B-17s arriving that morning from the US. There were only six B-17s in the group, so this did not account for the large size of the plot. But the officer had little grasp of the technology and the B-17's had no IFF (Identification Friend or Foe) system, nor any alternative procedure for identifying distant friendlies as the British had developed during the Battle of Britain. The raid on Pearl Harbor started 55 minutes later, and signaled the United States' formal entry into World War II.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCR-270_radar

And the testimony of (Lieutenant at the time of Pearl Harbor) Kermit Tyler, the officer who blew the call:

Colonel TYLER. Just as a matter of interest, I saw this lad who was keeping the historical record. There is a record made of every plot that comes into the station, and I had not [1099] yet observed that activity, so I went over to see what he was doing, and it happened to be just about 7 o'clock, or roughly thereabout; and he had these plots out probably 130 miles, which I looked at, and there were other plots on the board at that time. It was just about 7, or a little bit after, I think, and then, right at 7 o'clock, all the people who were in the information center, except the telephone operator, folded up their equipment and left. There were just the operator and myself again; and about 7:15, the radar operator from Opana called the telephone operator to say that he had a larger plot than he had ever seen before, on his 'scope, and the telephone operator relayed the call to me; so I took the call, and, inasmuch as I had no means of identifying friendly plots from enemy, nor was I led to believe that there would be any occasion to do so, I told him not to worry about it.

And the next warning I had was about 5 after 8, when we received a call that there was an attack on.

23. General FRANK. What did you assume this was that was coming in? It might have been what?

Colonel TYLER. As far as I was concerned, it could. I thought it most probable that it would be the B-17's which were coming from the mainland. The testimony of Tyler, Elliot and Lockard can all be found here (http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/myths/radar/).

Your argument is remarkably reminiscent of the shinola troofers routinely spread about NORAD and US air defenses on 9/11- and about as well-informed.


I mentioned that to illustrate the total lack of empathy that exists in the world in discussing history. Clearly your statement seems to be exemplary of that. You're saying they deserved to suffer?Apportioning an appropriate share of responsibility to the lunatic militarists who thought that Japan could conquer, rob and rape its way out of its economic problems doesn't constitute saying that the ordinary people of Japan deserved to suffer.


It must be a great feeling to know when the US does anything it's because they are "liberating" countries. I guess building military bases in foreign countries is for their "protection".And finally we come to the crux of the biscuit- your ideological motivation to minimize or deny the well-documented crimes of the Nazis and the Imperial Japanese forces. This is a non sequitur; no matter how badly the US gummint has behaved, it doesn't change what happened in Europe and Asia between 1937 and 1945.

[tarrou]

[reasonable, cut out for clarity..]

Der Untergang is undeniably pop culture, but its better pop culture than most. And much more accessible to the average person than the reading necessary for in depth understanding.

I agree completely. But when people start referring to 'Der Untergang' when talking about Hitler, or 'Schindler's List' when talking about the holocaust we have a real problem.

Some people do not feel the need to research further, because the history/reality has been explained to them in an easily digestible package.
And the portrait of Hitler or Schindler in the movies, is as inaccurate as my personal description of 9/11 or my memories from the court of king Nero.

What happened in Europe during the Nazi regime is impossible to describe. Dry historical facts does not even begin to give justice to the people that suffered this plague on humanity.

Fortunately, we do not need an explanation or justice. We do not need an apology for Nazism and Hitler. We do not need some interpretation of their wrongdoings, of their wants and needs.

We do not need an explanation. Any explanation is bound to belittle the terror of nazism.

Nazism does not have a human face. Hitler was not human.

This is not denial.

But to accept Hitler as human or Nazism as 'normal' human behaviour is to invite MaGZ and friends into our society.

It is simply just not acceptable. 'Der Untergang' wants me to accept Hitler, and i say 'No!' Still, my eyes are open!

[kageki]

1. Prior to the Pearl Harbor attack, US radar technology had never been proven in battle.
2. Even so, the Pearl Harbor radar detected the Japanese force about an hour away.
3. Since none of the officers were trained in how to use the radar effectively, they didn't respond.

Anyway, I see where this is going. Standard Japanese WW2 revisionism. It wasn't the Empire's fault that they attacked the US and were humiliated in return. The US devil made them do it! The US made it so easy to attack, how could Japan not follow through?


Read the Vaillant-Couturier testimony.

This is one of the biggest problem I have when it comes down to discussing history.

When it's the perspective from the Japanese side it's "revisionism", but when it's the word of the US government it's "official". Similiarly anything from the German government is all "Nazi propaganda" and therefore unreliable. Do you ever think there is US and British propaganda?

Do you honestly believe Pearl Harbor was a "surprise"? The US despite being the dominant country in this world sure seems to have a lot of "oops" moments. I just find it hard to believe that Japan really thought they had a chance to take over the US or if that even was the intention.

That "humiliation" involved the unnecessary use of not 1 but 2 nuclear bombs that wiped 2 major cities off the map when the US had already bombed the crap out of Japan with conventional bombs. Can you picture the entire manhattan island with no buildings standing?

It's not really about laying the guilt trip for Japan though. The Japanese sincerely want the effects and use of nuclear bombs to be exposed for the sake of world peace and for the US to stop covering it up. If Americans are still boasting about using it again or that Japan deserved to be nuked then we still have a long ways to go.

[Bell]

Hitler was not human.

Alas, he was. Which tells a lot about the capabilities of the human race.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/59/Baby-hitler.jpg/484px-Baby-hitler.jpg

[twinstead]

Do you honestly believe Pearl Harbor was a "surprise"? The US despite being the dominant country in this world sure seems to have a lot of "oops" moments. I just find it hard to believe that Japan really thought they had a chance to take over the US or if that even was the intention.


With all due respect, the biggest issue many on this forum have is those who debate primarily from a position of personal incredulity.

My momma always told me beware of a sentence that starts with 'I just find it hard to believe...'.

And if you think that on Dec 7, 1941 the US was 'the dominant country in this world' then you aren't paying attention. If you have any compelling evidence Pearl Harbor wasn't a surprise then I would be interested in hearing it.

[tarrou]

Alas, he was. Which tells a lot about the capabilities of the human race.

Well, obviously Hitler was a human being.
Now you just need to demonstrate that Hitler was human!
This may get lost in translation, but in my native language there is a huge difference between the two.

[kageki]

What the Japanese and German aggression had in common was that both nations saw themselves as the rightful rulers over a major portion of the world, and took steps to set themselves up as such. The deaths of the indigenous peoples was of little consequence, because they were lesser sorts of folk than the people of the invading nations.

Why, for instance, had the Japanese any territorial interest in China or Korea?

I won't even excuse our involvement in Iraq, given that the PNAC manifesto states that we should use our status as a military power to maintain "mastery" over events in the region. That idea should have died with Hitler.

I appreciate you at least recognizing what the US is doing today, but you see the British and the US colony has a much longer history of colonization that continues to modern times. How many Native Americans were slaughtered do you think to make way for the white Europeans? The genocide of Native Americans that added up to what 10,20 million?

If it weren't for Germany or Japan then you would have Britain and US ruling over territories... which they do. Those over 300 military bases the US has all over the world is off course to help "defend" that nation.

China had made some ridiculous claim in the past that Japan should be returned to China because it was once part of mainland China. They also seem to have their eyes set on Taiwan. Our entire world history consists of on-going territorial conquest. It is hardly unique. Not that I'm defending imperialism which is why I strongly oppose this war in Iraq.

Maybe you can ween yourself off of Allied propaganda a little bit though.

[Matthew Best]

Here you go kageki (http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/imt/proc/01-28-46.htm#vaillant)

[Matthew Best]

Well, obviously Hitler was a human being.
Now you just need to demonstrate that Hitler was human!
This may get lost in translation, but in my native language there is a huge difference between the two.

Sadly we're not talking in your native language or I might find it easier to understand what you are trying to say.

[ktesibios]

Do you honestly believe Pearl Harbor was a "surprise"? The US despite being the dominant country in this world sure seems to have a lot of "oops" moments.

Personal incredulity is not an argument. However, if you really wanna know, my opinion is that their striking first at Pearl Harbor rather than in the Phillipines probably was a surprise- at least to the American brass.

I just find it hard to believe that Japan really thought they had a chance to take over the US or if that even was the intention.

It almost certainly wasn't. Their Pacific strategy appears to have been first to strike a crippling blow to US naval power in the Pacific and then to glom as wide an expanse of the Pacific as possible and create a defensive perimeter.

The idea was that with a diminished Navy, the USA would negotiate a peace rather than fight their way all the way to Japan. The territories seized in the central Pacific would serve two purposes: to deter the USA from fighting through such vast distances, and as bargaining chips which could be given back in exchange for what the militarists really wanted- Allied acquiescence in Japan's seizure of resource-producing areas in East and Southeast Asia.

They utterly blew that strategy at Pearl Harbor. After that, no American administration could possibly have negotiated a peace, especially one favorable to Japan, without being skinned alive by the American public.

That they failed to destroy any carriers, or the machine shops and repair facilities, or the 4.5 million barrels of fuel oil at Pearl, while losing 27 pilots from a Navy which only graduated 100 pilots per year, didn't help them much either.

[kageki]

With all due respect, the biggest issue many on this forum have is those who debate primarily from a position of personal incredulity.

My momma always told me beware of a sentence that starts with 'I just find it hard to believe...'.

And if you think that on Dec 7, 1941 the US was 'the dominant country in this world' then you aren't paying attention. If you have any compelling evidence Pearl Harbor wasn't a surprise then I would be interested in hearing it.

You call your mother, momma? Are you in grade school?

That's funny you try to minimize the strength of the US now, but openly boast about humiliiating the japs and nazis.

I'm sure you're smart enough to know about the controversy over Pearl Harbor and know where to look. I've never heard of a country that managed to secretly invade a country without them knowing it. Has a "surprise" invasion of another country ever happened anytime else?

[Matthew Best]

In what sense was the USA "invaded" at Pearl Harbour?

[Corsair 115]

It's amazing that this real fleet traveling from across the planet was never detected by the US radar system... Uh, radars at Pearl Harbor were capable of detecting warships hundreds of miles away?

when even Australia warned the US about the Japanese fleet heading to Pearl Harbor? Uh, how does Australia warn the U.S. about a fleet which took a northern route well outside of normal shipping lanes, a route often plagued by bad weather, and a route that was a couple of thousand miles away from Australia?

I guess the US never did anything to provoke Japan into attacking?And what was it in response to that the U.S. slapped a trade embargo on Japan? Oh, yes, its brutal occupation of China. An occupation which consisted of things like the infamous Rape of Nanking.

[Slayhamlet]

You call your mother, momma? Are you in grade school?

That's funny you try to minimize the strength of the US now, but openly boast about humiliiating the japs and nazis.

I'm sure you're smart enough to know about the controversy over Pearl Harbor and know where to look. I've never heard of a country that managed to secretly invade a country without them knowing it. Has a "surprise" invasion of another country ever happened anytime else?

What in the world are you talking about?

[Bell]

Sadly we're not talking in your native language or I might find it easier to understand what you are trying to say.

Tarrou is saying that allthough Hitler was human, he did not act in a human (humane) way. But lot's of people didn't or do not, but Hitler took it as far as one could.

My point is that allthough Hitler allowed for all those atrocities, he was still a human being. Humans ARE capable of doing those evil things.

[MaGZ]

I agree completely. But when people start referring to 'Der Untergang' when talking about Hitler, or 'Schindler's List' when talking about the holocaust we have a real problem.

Some people do not feel the need to research further, because the history/reality has been explained to them in an easily digestible package.
And the portrait of Hitler or Schindler in the movies, is as inaccurate as my personal description of 9/11 or my memories from the court of king Nero.

What happened in Europe during the Nazi regime is impossible to describe. Dry historical facts does not even begin to give justice to the people that suffered this plague on humanity.

Fortunately, we do not need an explanation or justice. We do not need an apology for Nazism and Hitler. We do not need some interpretation of their wrongdoings, of their wants and needs.

We do not need an explanation. Any explanation is bound to belittle the terror of nazism.

Nazism does not have a human face. Hitler was not human.

This is not denial.

But to accept Hitler as human or Nazism as 'normal' human behaviour is to invite MaGZ and friends into our society.

It is simply just not acceptable. 'Der Untergang' wants me to accept Hitler, and i say 'No!' Still, my eyes are open!

Some believe that Hitler was not human but superhuman; or at least a superhuman personality.

http://www.theneworder.org/hitler_phenom/hitler_lives.html

[tarrou]

Sadly we're not talking in your native language or I might find it easier to understand what you are trying to say.
Sorry! :boxedin:

What I am trying to say is this:

1. Hitler was a human being [sic].
2. To analyze hitler as a 'normal human being' is futile and dangerous.
3. 'Der untergang' portraits Hitler as a human being just like you and me.

Hitler was not a normal human being. Nazi-germany was not just 'another empire'. Nazi punks are not just 'misinformered youngsters'.

ETA: Thanks Bell! humane it is! My first translation award goes to you! (1 beer in Copenhagen - come and get it!)

[Slayhamlet]

Tarrou is saying that allthough Hitler was human, he did not act in a human (humane) way. But lot's of people didn't or do not, but Hitler took it as far as one could.

My point is that allthough Hitler allowed for all those atrocities, he was still a human being. Humans ARE capable of doing those evil things.

Hitler was hardly the sole "inhuman" leader bred by the circumstances of that strange time in European history. Ante Pavelić was at least as bad as Hitler, though he had nowhere near as much power and influence.

[MaGZ]

Well, obviously Hitler was a human being.
Now you just need to demonstrate that Hitler was human!
This may get lost in translation, but in my native language there is a huge difference between the two.

So, what is your native language? Do you read right to left?

[MaGZ]

I appreciate you at least recognizing what the US is doing today, but you see the British and the US colony has a much longer history of colonization that continues to modern times. How many Native Americans were slaughtered do you think to make way for the white Europeans? The genocide of Native Americans that added up to what 10,20 million?


I think the number of Indians in North America at the time of the White conquest was the same number of Indians that are alive today.

[tarrou]

So, what is your native language? Do you read right to left?

I read everything very differently from you, that is for sure.

[Slayhamlet]

I read everything very differently from you, that is for sure.

He's implying that you're an Israeli, and hence a Jew. You might want to consider putting him on ignore. He's a nasty piece of work.

[twinstead]

You call your mother, momma? Are you in grade school?

That's funny you try to minimize the strength of the US now, but openly boast about humiliiating the japs and nazis.

I'm sure you're smart enough to know about the controversy over Pearl Harbor and know where to look. I've never heard of a country that managed to secretly invade a country without them knowing it. Has a "surprise" invasion of another country ever happened anytime else?

Nice try to avoid my question by insulting me, but please, this is not some conspiracy forum. Explain to me exactly how 'I just don't believe' and 'I've never heard' is a legitimate debate tactic.

What you are going to get here is rational, intelligent treatment of the subject. If you are going to keep up with folks here, arguments from incredulity and insults will get you nowhere. SHOW SOME EVIDENCE

[Bell]

ETA: Thanks Bell! humane it is! My first translation award goes to you! (1 beer in Copenhagen - come and get it!)

Only one?

[Elizabeth I]

How clever Elizabeth! It's amazing that this real fleet traveling from across the planet was never detected by the US radar system when even Australia warned the US about the Japanese fleet heading to Pearl Harbor? I guess the US never did anything to provoke Japan into attacking?

You can't have it both ways. First you said the U.S. was "duped" into joining the war; now they were the ones doing the duping? And you seem to have a thing about countries "provoking" other countries into attacking. What were the Allies doing, jumping around going "Nyah, nyah, nyah" and thumbing their noses?


Which they did. Which also doesn't mean the Nazis gassed a ton of Jews in gas chambers alive.

Where did the bodies come from that were thrown into the crematoria?


I mentioned that to illustrate the total lack of empathy that exists in the world in discussing history. Clearly your statement seems to be exemplary of that. You're saying they deserved to suffer?

Please don't attribute things to me that I never said. I did not say your parents deserved to suffer. I said their sufferings should be laid at the feet of the Japanese warlords who took their country to war.


Do you honestly believe Pearl Harbor was a "surprise"? The US despite being the dominant country in this world sure seems to have a lot of "oops" moments. I just find it hard to believe that Japan really thought they had a chance to take over the US or if that even was the intention.

The U.S. was not a superpower in 1941. When the war was over, because so much of the European and Asian infrastructure had been destroyed, there was an economic and military vacuum. Due to its distance from the fighting, the U.S. was isolated from the destruction, and, because of its involvement in the war, already in manufacturing mode. Conditions combined to create a niche into which the U.S. fit very well.

And the intention of the Japanese in World War II was not to "take over the U.S." It was to cripple and demoralize us so that we would have neither the means nor the will to interfere with the Japanese campaign of Asian conquest.


That "humiliation" involved the unnecessary use of not 1 but 2 nuclear bombs that wiped 2 major cities off the map when the US had already bombed the crap out of Japan with conventional bombs. Can you picture the entire manhattan island with no buildings standing?

It's not really about laying the guilt trip for Japan though. The Japanese sincerely want the effects and use of nuclear bombs to be exposed for the sake of world peace and for the US to stop covering it up. If Americans are still boasting about using it again or that Japan deserved to be nuked then we still have a long ways to go.

It was WAR, infant. And not war that the U.S. started, either. A judgment was made that a quick and decisive end to combat in the Pacific was necessary, and the bomb was dropped.

The results were horrific. Consider that nuclear weapons had never been deployed against a populated area. I truly believe that, before Hiroshima and Nagasaki, no one could conceive of the effects of an atomic weapon on living creatures. Of course they knew there would be a huge explosion and a flash and a shock wave, but they hadn't actually seen the aftermath. Yes, the first and only time that nuclear weapons were used, they were used by the U.S. However, you will note that we haven't used them since.

As far as just desserts are concerned, what had the people in Hawaii done to "deserve" the rain of bombs on December 7, 1941? What had the Korean "comfort women" done to "deserve" their gang rapes? What had the civilian population of Nanjing done to "deserve" looting, arson, torture, rape and murder? I suppose all those people had been "provoking" the Japanese. You speak as if the country of Japan had not been actively waging war on the rest of the world for years. Did they "deserve" to be the target of atomic weapons? Maybe not, but they certainly had to be stopped.

[twinstead]

Only one?

Indeed. :eye-poppi

[twinstead]

An invasion of the Japanese mainland, as an alternative to the atomic bombs, would have killed more Japanese than both bombs put together.

[kageki]

Here you go kageki (http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/imt/proc/01-28-46.htm#vaillant)

Oh I see Marie-Claude Vaillant-Couturier another darling of Holocaust promoters who was a member of the French resistance.

The French, who got their asses kicked by the Germans. She possibly didn't have a bone to pick with the Germans including some of her seemingly exaggerated claims and ambiguous descriptions of the gassing.

This testimony is based on this same French resistance woman who was detained as a political prisoner describing the conditions of the camp towards the end of the war?

http://www.hdot.org/trial/judgement/05.022
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marie-Claude_Vaillant-Couturier


I still don't get the impression that mass gassing had occurred to kill Jews. According to Vaillant-Couturier they were gassing everyone without any qualifications. Gassing everyone to disinfect them?




MME. VAILLANT-COUTURIER: At Auschwitz there was a brothel for the SS and also one for the male internees of the staff, who were called "Kapo." Moreover, when the SS needed servants,

The Kapo were prison guards picked by the SS and mostly consisted of Jewish men. The Jewish Kapos had access to brothels and were often more brutal then the SS.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/kapos.html

[tarrou]

He's implying that you're an Israeli, and hence a Jew. You might want to consider putting him on ignore. He's a nasty piece of work.

Heh, I missed that! I kind of like when people embarass themselves in public though, so I'll keep my mouse pointer away from the ignore button for now.:)

[twinstead]

Kegeki you have A LOT of more evidence to ignore before this thing is over. Do you think that it's simply Marie-Claude Vaillant-Couturier's word against yours?

[Elizabeth I]

Tarrou is saying that allthough Hitler was human, he did not act in a human (humane) way. But lot's of people didn't or do not, but Hitler took it as far as one could.

My point is that allthough Hitler allowed for all those atrocities, he was still a human being. Humans ARE capable of doing those evil things.


I have a theory that there are some creatures that look human but are not. Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Ceaucescu, Ted Bundy, Charles Manson and Jeffrey Dahmer fit this category. They are not human, and, unless and until our understanding of the way the brain works is increased by orders of magnitude, nothing you can do will make them human. They are not, and should be kept away from others that they could harm.

[Matthew Best]

I have this theory that humans are capable of much more evil than you think they are.