[Moderated]The Holocaust never happened!

[Hokulele]

I would like to add a side note after having caught up with the last 5 pages.

Japanese history as taught in the schoolroom as well as presented in official government documentation and historical monuments do admit to a large number of their war-time atrocities (such as the Rape of Nanking). There are certain political factions currently active that are trying to rewrite history. Fortunately, mainstream Japan allows them to speak, but does not give their ideas credence.

In addition, I would like to note that Japan's attack on Pearl Harbor was not their only incursion into the USA. Read up on the Alaskan islands of Attu and Kiska.

[Belz...]

No, your question seems to have a malicious intent.

A "malicious" intent ? Well, thanks.

[bynmdsue]

So, what is your native language? Do you read right to left?

I read everything very differently from you, that is for sure.


Oh Snap!

Good Burn,tarrou.

[tarrou]

Only one?

Well, if you bring some samples from one of your coffee shops, I might be able to upgrade the package to a six pack - plus a guided tour to our most beloved national symbol; The Little Mermaid!!!!

[Belz...]

For those interested there was a brilliant film call Der Untertag made about Hitler's last 10 days. Won a few awards a couple of years ago. It is largely drawn from testimony of Hitler's private secretary. Incredibly well done film, best watched in the German with subtitles. (And I am very bitchy about historical movies, I can count the ones I like on one hand, and before any foolish questions, no I didn't care for Schindler's List).

You mean "Downfall" ? I own it on DVD. It's a very, very good movie. I especially like how completely detached from reality Hitler was.

It's a good movie to watch in a marathon, just after "Saving Private Ryan" and before "Nuremberg".

[twinstead]

In addition, I would like to note that Japan's attack on Pearl Harbor was not their only incursion into the USA. Read up on the Alaskan islands of Attu and Kiska.

Ah, the often overlooked exploits of the 301st Independent Infantry Battalion of Japan's Northern Army.

[Bell]

Well, if you bring some samples from one of your coffee shops, I might be able to upgrade the package to a six pack - plus a guided tour to our most beloved national symbol; The Little Mermaid!!!!

Ah, cappucino! ;)

[Belz...]

How clever Elizabeth! It's amazing that this real fleet traveling from across the planet was never detected by the US radar system when even Australia warned the US about the Japanese fleet heading to Pearl Harbor? I guess the US never did anything to provoke Japan into attacking?

So, you're a Pearl Harbor CTer, after all ? Is there ANY revisionist history you don't buy into ?

Which they did. Which also doesn't mean the Nazis gassed a ton of Jews in gas chambers alive.

It seems NOTHING to you can possibly mean that, no matter how much evidence piles up. You ARE aware of the phrase "reasonable doubt", right ?

It must be a great feeling to know when the US does anything it's because they are "liberating" countries. I guess building military bases in foreign countries is for their "protection".

Just about as much as concentration camps in foreing countries were there to prevent typhus epidemics.

[twinstead]

Ah, cappucino! ;)

:rolleyes:

[Elizabeth I]

I would like to add a side note after having caught up with the last 5 pages.

Japanese history as taught in the schoolroom as well as presented in official government documentation and historical monuments do admit to a large number of their war-time atrocities (such as the Rape of Nanking). There are certain political factions currently active that are trying to rewrite history. Fortunately, mainstream Japan allows them to speak, but does not give their ideas credence.

In addition, I would like to note that Japan's attack on Pearl Harbor was not their only incursion into the USA. Read up on the Alaskan islands of Attu and Kiska.

Hokulele, your posts are always so calm and authoritative. Thanks.

[Bell]

I have this theory that humans are capable of much more evil than you think they are.

Exactly my point.

[JEROME DA GNOME]

Just for once, could you please make a clear, declarative, positive statement? This is twisted to the point of incomprehensibility.

It is dishonest to quote half of a conversation and declare that it is incomprehensible.

[Belz...]

It is simply just not acceptable. 'Der Untergang' wants me to accept Hitler, and i say 'No!' Still, my eyes are open!

Have you even seen the movie ? It depicts Hitler as a maniac psychopath.

[Hokulele]

Hokulele, your posts are always so calm and authoritative. Thanks.


Thanks.

I must say, I have enjoyed your contributions so far as well. :)

[Belz...]

I will still stick with what Oliver Wendall Holmes said in the supreme court decision. You are welcome to the opinions of others.

Of course you will! Why switch to reality when you can just pick your own truths??

[Matthew Best]

Sorry! :boxedin:

What I am trying to say is this:

1. Hitler was a human being [sic].
2. To analyze hitler as a 'normal human being' is futile and dangerous.
3. 'Der untergang' portraits Hitler as a human being just like you and me.

Incidentally, I disagree with your point 3.

If you see something of yourself in the portrayal of Hitler in that movie, I'm baffled.

[Belz...]

When it's the perspective from the Japanese side it's "revisionism", but when it's the word of the US government it's "official".

Yeah, because one follows the facts and the other doesn't.

Do you honestly believe Pearl Harbor was a "surprise"? The US despite being the dominant country in this world sure seems to have a lot of "oops" moments.

Argument from personal incredulity. The USA are not invincible. 9/11 is proof of that. Pearl Harbor is proof of that.

If Americans are still boasting about using it again or that Japan deserved to be nuked then we still have a long ways to go.

???

I'm sure you're smart enough to know about the controversy over Pearl Harbor and know where to look.

Controversy <> Reality

A few dissident nutjobs < Controversy

I've never heard of a country that managed to secretly invade a country without them knowing it. Has a "surprise" invasion of another country ever happened anytime else?

We call those "surprise attacks" for a reason.

Oh I see Marie-Claude Vaillant-Couturier another darling of Holocaust promoters who was a member of the French resistance.

The French, who got their asses kicked by the Germans. She possibly didn't have a bone to pick with the Germans including some of her seemingly exaggerated claims and ambiguous descriptions of the gassing.

Aside from witnesses whom YOU think support your idea, are there any reliable witnesses. SHE WAS THERE. You weren't. Thousands of people reported these horrific acts, man. What the hell makes you so sure they didn't happen ?

The Kapo were prison guards picked by the SS and mostly consisted of Jewish men. The Jewish Kapos had access to brothels and were often more brutal then the SS.

Well! That makes it alright, then!

[Belz...]

Some believe that Hitler was not human but superhuman; or at least a superhuman personality.

"Some", meaning "MaGZ" ?

[kageki]

I think the number of Indians in North America at the time of the White conquest was the same number of Indians that are alive today.

I think that's a horrible propaganda lie we've been told. Columbus alone is responsible for how many dead?

http://www.iearn.org/hgp/aeti/aeti-1997/native-americans.html


In 1493, when Columbus returned to the Hispaniola, he quickly implemented policies of slavery and mass extermination of the Taino population of the Caribbean. Within three years, five million were dead.

Is that true? 5 million dead in 3 years sounds like the Holocaust to me.

I really wonder how many Native Americans actually died as a consequence of a brutal takeover by Europeans? I heard a Native American fellow on the radio the other day mentioning there was 40 million at the the time of conquest down to under a million. I also like to know if that is true.

[JEROME DA GNOME]

A "malicious" intent ? Well, thanks.

You are welcome.:)

[JEROME DA GNOME]

Is that true? 5 million dead in 3 years sounds like the Holocaust to me.

I really wonder how many Native Americans actually died as a consequence of a brutal takeover by Europeans? I heard a Native American fellow on the radio the other day mentioning there was 40 million at the the time of conquest down to under a million. I also like to know if that is true.

How many did Columbus bring with him?

5 million killed in 3 years is over 4,500 per day every day.

How many bullets did he bring with him?

[tarrou]

Have you even seen the movie ? It depicts Hitler as a maniac psychopath.

I have seen the movie. And i agree that the picture it paints of Hitler is far from positive.

But: In the recent weeks I have seen a 6-part documentary about the holocaust as well.

That very documentary got me thinking about 'Der Untergang', and i stand firm in my belief that Hitler's last days are only a matter for historians - not a matter for film makers, regardless of what kind of emotions they want to evoke in me.

Any attempt to 'humanize' Adolf Hitler will always imply some kind of apology, and the terror of the Nazi regime is beyond forgiveness
(thus spoke a student of Albert Camus :boxedin:)

My biggest concern with 'Der untergang' is its claim to be authentic.
There is nothing authentic about the movie. It shows a demoralised, pityful, manic psychopath, which in my opinion is dishonest at best. If the movie should have been made at all (which it in my opinion shouldn't have), it should have captured his 'career' all the way from the rise to power to the final apocalypse.

But again: I do not want to understand Hitler. He was a very insignificant character, placed on the world scene more by chance than by reckoning it seems.

I would like to understand his followers, the men and women in Waffen-SS, the common people enamoured by nazism, and the people carrying wood to the ovens. I would like to understand MaGZ. As I grow older my understanding grows, but I am still essentially mystified .

Don't get me wrong: I think 'Der Untergang' is a great movie. I just don't think it does any service to students of history, nor to the victims of the Nazi era.

[Gravy]

You mean "Downfall" ? I own it on DVD. It's a very, very good movie. I especially like how completely detached from reality Hitler was.

It's a good movie to watch in a marathon, just after "Saving Private Ryan" and before "Nuremberg".Belz's Summertime Feelgood Film Festival?

[tarrou]

Incidentally, I disagree with your point 3.

If you see something of yourself in the portrayal of Hitler in that movie, I'm baffled.

Well, I cried when Bambi's mother died as well :jaw-dropp

[Hokulele]

How many did Columbus bring with him?

5 million killed in 3 years is over 4,500 per day every day.

How many bullets did he bring with him?


Read up on diseases such as smallpox. They killed far more Native Americans than bullets ever did.

[JEROME DA GNOME]

Read up on diseases such as smallpox. They killed far more Native Americans than bullets ever did.

You have evidence that Columbus; in 1493, intentionally spread smallpox?

I have no dispute that Columbus did come to the Americas to move out and kill the natives; but killing 5 million in 3 years is a ridiculous claim on its face which brings into question the validity of the presenter.

[Hokulele]

You have evidence that Columbus; in 1493, intentionally spread smallpox?

I have no dispute that Columbus did come to the Americas to move out and kill the natives; but killing 5 million in 3 years is a ridiculous claim on its face which brings into question the validity of the presenter.


Why would it have to be intentional? You should read Jared Diamond's Guns, Germs, and Steel for examples of how American populations (not just natives of the Carribean) were decimated by introduced diseases. It is well known how the Native Hawai'ian population crashed after contact with Western explorers.

I have seen many different numbers for the Carib and Taino populations pre-contact, and how they fared after Columbus returned as governor. I am not necessarily agreeing with the number the poster presented, but I completely disagree with your argument from incredulity that such a number is inconceivable. I am also refuting your argument that a genocide has to be accomplished using "bullets".

I recommend that you read history before commenting on it.

[kageki]

So, you're a Pearl Harbor CTer, after all ? Is there ANY revisionist history you don't buy into ?


I believe in one conspiracy theory as you believe in another conspiracy theory.

"Magic" cables

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v04/v04p467_Greaves.html

US had broken Japanese codes. The US knew what the Japanese were up to and their capabilities. FDR knew about Pearl Harbor and let it happen.

http://whatreallyhappened.com/pearl/www.geocities.com/Pentagon/6315/pearl.html

Germany's declaration of war

Germany only declared war after Japan out of obligation to the Tripartite Pact. Germany never had intentions of declaring war on America by itself.

Japan's Intent

What exactly were the ambitions and the intent of Japan?


http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v04/v04p467_Greaves.html

A number of Japan's intercepts were translated and circulated on November 26th. Perhaps the most informative was one sent on November 14, from Tokyo to Hong Kong and eleven other Chinese cities. It read in part:

Though the Imperial Government hopes for great things from the Japan-American negotiations, they do not permit optimism for the future. Should the negotiations collapse, the international situation in which the Empire will find herself will be one of tremendous crisis. Accompanying this, the Empire's foreign policy as it has been decided by the cabinet ... is:

a. We will completely destroy British and American power in China.

b. We will take over all enemy concessions and enemy important rights and interests (customs and minerals, etc.) in China....

We will cope with a world war on a long-time scale. Should our reserves for total war and our future military strength wane, we have decided to reinforce them from the whole Far Eastern area. This has become the whole fundamental policy of the Empire....

Please keep absolutely quiet the existence of these decisions and the fact that they have been transmitted to you.


The "official" explanation is only one side of the argument. What were the British and the US doing at this time?

Again nothing to indicate they had any desire to attack the US which makes the story about Pearl Harbor that much more odd. Japan was fighting with Russia too and was against Communism.

[JEROME DA GNOME]

Why would it have to be intentional? You should read Jared Diamond's Guns, Germs, and Steel for examples of how American populations (not just natives of the Carribean) were decimated by introduced diseases. It is well known how the Native Hawai'ian population crashed after contact with Western explorers.

I have seen many different numbers for the Carib and Taino populations pre-contact, and how they fared after Columbus returned as governor. I am not necessarily agreeing with the number the poster presented, but I completely disagree with your argument from incredulity that such a number is inconceivable. I am also refuting your argument that a genocide has to be accomplished using "bullets".

I recommend that you read history before commenting on it.


From the text we are talking about:
In 1493, when Columbus returned to the Hispaniola, he quickly implemented policies of slavery and mass extermination of the Taino population of the Caribbean. Within three years, five million were dead. Las Casas, the primary historian of the Columbian era, writes of many accounts of the horrors that the Spanish colonists inflicted upon the indigenous population: hanging them en mass, hacking their children into pieces to be used as dog feed, and other horrid cruelties. The works of Las Casas are often omitted from popular American history books and courses because Columbus is considered a hero by many, even today.


Can you find any implication in this text that the 5 million deaths were not intentional?

[leftysergeant]

I doubt that many here, except a few hared-core racists would disagree with the position that the extermination of some native tribes and their removal from their lands was an atrocity. Hopefully, we are moving beyond justifying it on the grounds of Manifest Destiny. I would hope that we at least learned that much from WWII.

Some people here, however, are immune to such education.

[Hokulele]

I doubt that many here, except a few hared-core racists would disagree with the position that the extermination of some native tribes and their removal from their lands was an atrocity. Hopefully, we are moving beyond justifying it on the grounds of Manifest Destiny. I would hope that we at least learned that much from WWII.

Some people here, however, are immune to such education.


Yep, those people just landed on "Ignore".

[leftysergeant]

US had broken Japanese codes. The US knew what the Japanese were up to and their capabilities. FDR knew about Pearl Harbor and let it happen.

They knew something was coming. The naval officer who was mostly running the show just did a lot of stupid things, expecting more a guerilla operation at the outset of hostilities.

QUOTE]http://whatreallyhappened.com/pearl/www.geocities.com/Pentagon/6315/pearl.html[/QUOTE]

Decent people do not generally take kindly to what that site is selling. They're kind of Nazi.

Germany only declared war after Japan out of obligation to the Tripartite Pact. Germany never had intentions of declaring war on America by itself.

Actually, the Nazis believed up until the last that we would come over to their side once they had secured Europe.

What exactly were the ambitions and the intent of Japan?


To control all the resources of Asia for the ecconomic benefit of the Japanese Empire. The rest of Asia would be tributory states.

[Gazpacho]

US had broken Japanese codes.
The US had broken several Japanese codes. None of them happened to be the code that the Japanese military used to plan Pearl Harbor. (Please, give your ancestors a little credit. They weren't completely incompetent.)

[kageki]

How many did Columbus bring with him?

5 million killed in 3 years is over 4,500 per day every day.

How many bullets did he bring with him?

I think a lot of people died from cruel forced labor and also from disease. How about just chopping heads off with a sword? Did the Tainos even have weapons? Don't forget the time period we're talking here.

Just curious how does that work out with 6 million Jews that died in the Holocaust?

[Gravy]

Just curious how does that work out with 6 million Jews that died in the Holocaust?

http://www.nizkor.org/

66 Questions & Answers About the Holocaust (http://www.nizkor.org/features/qar/)

This is the third time that I've linked to Nizkor for your benefit. Specifically what do they get wrong? Back your claims with equal or superior evidence to that used by Nizkor.

Fair enough, kageki?

[Corsair 115]

The US knew what the Japanese were up to and their capabilities. From reading the Japanese diplomatic messages it was known war was imminent. Any time diplomats are instructed to destroy their code books, it's pretty obvious what's coming.

What wasn't known was where the war would start.

The Pearl Harbor strike wasn't even the original Japanese war plan; it was adopted only at the insistence of Admiral Yamamoto.

FDR knew about Pearl Harbor and let it happen. Incorrect.

Germany only declared war after Japan out of obligation to the Tripartite Pact. Not quite. The terms of the pact only required the members to come to the defence of another member should that member be attacked. Since Japan initiated the hostilities, Germany was not obligated to declare war on the United States.

Japan was fighting with Russia too and was against Communism.Japan signed a non-aggression pact with Russia in April of 1941. The two nations had fought battles in 1938-39. But the Japanese were soundly defeated in the Battle of Khalkin Gol, taking away the lesson that the Russians could be fierce and determined foes. This was something that Germany had yet to learn.

[Gravy]

Let's not let these deniers derail and move goalposts.

[kageki]

You have evidence that Columbus; in 1493, intentionally spread smallpox?

I have no dispute that Columbus did come to the Americas to move out and kill the natives; but killing 5 million in 3 years is a ridiculous claim on its face which brings into question the validity of the presenter.

Well this is straight from the horse's mouth. Las Casas says 3 million.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ta%C3%ADno

Bartolomé de Las Casas wrote (1561) in his multivolume History of the Indies: [26]

There were 60,000 people living on this island [when I arrived in 1508], including the Indians; so that from 1494 to 1508, over three million people had perished from war, slavery and the mines. Who in future generations will believe this?


Notice on wikipedia it says the figure is hotly contested. You wonder why it's ok to debate those numbers, but not the Holocaust. Was it really 6 million?

At the minimum we should be saying 5 million for the Holocaust. Stephen Walt even suggested 3 million or lower.


Native American ethnocide

50 million Native Americans in 1492
8 million in 1650
2 million in 1990

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_history_of_American_indigenous_peoples
http://www.census.gov/population/socdemo/race/indian/ailang1.txt

Why do we still honor Christopher Columbus as the great discover of America when he was a mass murderer? Do Native Americans have a right to protest about that?


http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/41/385.html

Columbus kidnapped , enslaved, and murdered the Arawak people. He ruled with severe discipline ordering the cutting off of ears or nose as punishment for minor crimes.

When the Arawaks fought back, Columbus used the excuse to wage war. On March 24th, 1495 Columbus set out to conquer the Arawaks. With 20 hunting dogs, horses, and guns Columbus set upon the Arawaks, tearing them up with dogs and mowing them down with volleys of bullets, and running them over with horses. Reporting back to Queen Isabel of Spain, Columbus boasted In the name of the holy trinity, we can send from here all the slaves that Brazil will hold. The Spaniards hunted Indians for sport and murdered them for dog food.

[A W Smith]

Notice on wikipedia it says the figure is hotly contested. You wonder why it's ok to debate those numbers, but not the Holocaust. Was it really 6 million?



Hotly contested by those handful of deniers on the left side of the bell curve for intelligence doesn't count, Sorry.. are you going to do a bit of research beyond trying to reinforce your racism?

http://www.nizkor.org/ (http://www.nizkor.org/)

66 Questions & Answers About the Holocaust (http://www.nizkor.org/features/qar/)

[kageki]

Hotly contested by those handful of deniers on the left side of the bell curve for intelligence doesn't count, Sorry.. are you going to do a bit of research beyond trying to reinforce your racism?

http://www.nizkor.org/ (http://www.nizkor.org/)

66 Questions & Answers About the Holocaust (http://www.nizkor.org/features/qar/)



You do realize I was referring to the hotly contested numbers of how many Columbus slaughtered?

In a rational world your reaction and comments should not even exist.

I say it's 5 million or less. To be more accurate an estimate of 5-6 million dead in the Jewish Holocaust. After all the total dead in the Holocaust is 11 million.

[Redtail]

Well this is straight from the horse's mouth. Las Casas says 3 million.



Notice on wikipedia it says the figure is hotly contested. You wonder why it's ok to debate those numbers, but not the Holocaust. Was it really 6 million?

At the minimum we should be saying 5 million for the Holocaust. Stephen Walt even suggested 3 million or lower.


Native American ethnocide

50 million Native Americans in 1492
8 million in 1650
2 million in 1990

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_history_of_American_indigenous_peoples
http://www.census.gov/population/socdemo/race/indian/ailang1.txt

Why do we still honor Christopher Columbus as the great discover of America when he was a mass murderer? Do Native Americans have a right to protest about that?

I had no Idea that the Japanese honored Christopher Columbus.

[kageki]

I had no Idea that the Japanese honored Christopher Columbus.

Sorry I didn't clarify. I sometimes say "we" because I've grew up and still continue to live in the US. You well know what I mean. Don't nitpick.

[Plantfoam]

Yes, Mr. Columbus had some rather dark ambitions in the Caribbean, but I think you are giving him too much genocidal credit. Also, is the spread of disease considered genocide if it is done accidentally?

Either way, it's all a cheap smokescreen in order to make the Holocaust seem insignificant.

[Redtail]

Sorry I didn't clarify. I sometimes say "we" because I've grew up and still continue to live in the US. You well know what I mean. Don't nitpick.

No I didn't know what you meant. You tout your being born in Japan, you tout your being born to Japanese parents, you "nitpick" someone who says mama instead of mother (a very "American" thing to do), you ask someone if that is what they are taught in America". Sorry, you and your arguments sound a bit fake.

[kageki]

Yes, Mr. Columbus had some rather dark ambitions in the Caribbean, but I think you are giving him too much genocidal credit. Also, is the spread of disease considered genocide if it is done accidentally?

Either way, it's all a cheap smokescreen in order to make the Holocaust seem insignificant.

If we're playing the numbers game then it seems like the targeted genocide of about 40 million Native Americans due to the Europeans in about 100 years is much more serious then the Holocaust.

If anything I think these other Holocausts seem too insignificant in comparison.

What does it matter if you think the spread of disease was intentional? Are you trying to diminish how Columbus slaughtered millions, possibly made an entire race of Native Americans extinct and hunted them down for dog food? The Spaniards fed chopped up Native Americans to their dogs and cut limbs off to test the sharpness of their swords. These apparently happened also. I fail to see how this is different from what the Nazis did.


But I still like to know. Was it 6 million for the Holocaust? Did the Nazis really burn Jews alive in ovens? Why are people only jailed for questioning the JEWISH Holocaust? What is fiction and fact?

[leftysergeant]

All of the Spaniards who participated in the Conquest croaked years ago, and nobody today would tolerate that sort of handling of native populations by an expansionist colonial power.

Nazis who participated in the Holocaust are still living and making excuses for their sorry butts, and there are punks around who consider them heroes.

Occassionally, they act out their depravities.

That's one of the reasons I pack heat.

[Redtail]

If we're playing the numbers game then it seems like the targeted genocide of about 40 million Native Americans due to the Europeans in about 100 years is much more serious then the Holocaust.

If anything I think these other Holocausts seem too insignificant in comparison.

What does it matter if you think the spread of disease was intentional? Are you trying to diminish how Columbus slaughtered millions, possibly made an entire race of Native Americans extinct and hunted them down for dog food? The Spaniards fed chopped up Native Americans to their dogs and cut limbs off to test the sharpness of their swords. These apparently happened also. I fail to see how this is different from what the Nazis did.


But I still like to know. Was it 6 million for the Holocaust? Did the Nazis really burn Jews alive in ovens? Why are people only jailed for questioning the JEWISH Holocaust? What is fiction and fact?

Who are the people saying that the Manifest Destiny colonists weren't as bad as history makes them out to be?

[leftysergeant]

I had hoped, about the middle of the 20th Century, that we would, as a nation, come to grips with the fact that we were living on stolen land and realize that it was wrong. That is the first step toward putting a stop to that sort of behavior elsewhere, forever.

Bush is still playing Cowboys and Indians in Iraq. We have Nazi sympathizers and apologists posting here.

Human evolution is a very drawn-out process, with uneven results, I guess.

[Darat]

You can't have it both ways. First you said the U.S. was "duped" into joining the war; now they were the ones doing the duping? And you seem to have a thing about countries "provoking" other countries into attacking. What were the Allies doing, jumping around going "Nyah, nyah, nyah" and thumbing their noses?

...snip...


It's a well know historical fact: http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=3182447#post3182447




I have a theory that there are some creatures that look human but are not. Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Ceaucescu, Ted Bundy, Charles Manson and Jeffrey Dahmer fit this category. They are not human, and, unless and until our understanding of the way the brain works is increased by orders of magnitude, nothing you can do will make them human. They are not, and should be kept away from others that they could harm.

I have this theory that humans are capable of much more evil than you think they are.

Unfortunately I have to agree with Matthew on this; whilst some people, because of brain disease or damage, may not be able to function in the same way as non-damaged humans we have to face the fact that the spectrum of behaviours we are all capable of span the spectrum from angel to devil.

Many studies have shown that given the right environment even the most "upright, moral and good" of us can act in ways that we generally consider to be reprehensible.

(Saying that I do wonder if at least some of the names Elizabeth mentions are in the "brain damaged" category.)

[kageki]

Who are the people saying that the Manifest Destiny colonists weren't as bad as history makes them out to be?

Your own textbooks about your own history. The entire US history is a farce and leaves out so many things.

Do you think Pocahantas would really romantically fall in love with some white guy when they were raping and killing Native Americans to take their land?

Did you know that over 40 million Native Americans died as a result of the establishment of the US? I never knew that figure until recently. Go figure since I'm a product of the US public and private education system.

The US government has you believe that the US was only sparsely populated before Columbus arrived and that the population didn't change much afterwards. That Columbus was a hero that discovered America where it actually seems that he was one of the worst genocidal maniacs in history who merrily fed his dogs Native American meat. I don't recall reading that in any textbook.

So yeah ALOT of things left out, but we all know the "official" history.


Every single "conspiracy" has to do with history that makes the US and British look bad. Who controls the world today?

[leftysergeant]

Many studies have shown that given the right environment even the most "upright, moral and good" of us can act in ways that we generally consider to be reprehensible.

(Saying that I do wonder if at least some of the names Elizabeth mentions are in the "brain damaged" category.)

Having met one of them, Bundy, I can only say that the brain damage is not always evident, but an inflated sense of self-worth and entitlement is.

[Belz...]

That very documentary got me thinking about 'Der Untergang', and i stand firm in my belief that Hitler's last days are only a matter for historians - not a matter for film makers

Nothing is beyond film-making. Films are created to entertain, and sometimes to create an interest in a particular subject. They shouldn't be seen as historical treatises. Anyone who criticises a movie for being not historically accurate has no idea what movies are about.

Any attempt to 'humanize' Adolf Hitler will always imply some kind of apology, and the terror of the Nazi regime is beyond forgiveness
(thus spoke a student of Albert Camus :boxedin:)

Hitler was a human. Deal.

My biggest concern with 'Der untergang' is its claim to be authentic.

Exactly where does it claim this ?

There is nothing authentic about the movie. It shows a demoralised, pityful, manic psychopath, which in my opinion is dishonest at best.

Tell me, then. Wasn't Hitler a demoralised, pitiful, manic psychopath ?

If the movie should have been made at all (which it in my opinion shouldn't have), it should have captured his 'career' all the way from the rise to power to the final apocalypse.

You're an odd bird. That wasn't the purpose of the movie. This is like people who complain that "The Last Samurai" wasn't historically accurate because the Samurai were, in reality, a dying breed that didn't want to lose its social privileges. So what ? It's a movie. Smart people can watch those movies and take them for what they are.

Besides, I don't know what you this was so inaccurate about Downfall.

But again: I do not want to understand Hitler. He was a very insignificant character, placed on the world scene more by chance than by reckoning it seems.

Well, _I_ want to understand him. I want to know why someone can reach such depths of evil. And he was VERY significant, considering how much harm he did. Trying to ignore his "contribution" won't help.

Don't get me wrong: I think 'Der Untergang' is a great movie. I just don't think it does any service to students of history, nor to the victims of the Nazi era.

It wasn't meant to, methinks, but my opinion is that you give it too little credit.

[Belz...]

I believe in one conspiracy theory as you believe in another conspiracy theory.

I believe in no conspiracy theory. But there are conspiracies.

US had broken Japanese codes. The US knew what the Japanese were up to and their capabilities. FDR knew about Pearl Harbor and let it happen.

I've read just enough on this subject to know that whoever says this has read a lot less than I did.

Germany only declared war after Japan out of obligation to the Tripartite Pact. Germany never had intentions of declaring war on America by itself.

How does that help you ? They declared war, still.

What exactly were the ambitions and the intent of Japan?

The "official" explanation is only one side of the argument. What were the British and the US doing at this time?

Who cares ? Why don't we listen to what the Japanese have to say about their own intentions ?

Again nothing to indicate they had any desire to attack the US which makes the story about Pearl Harbor that much more odd.

I don't see where you're going with this. Japan DID attack the US, so that point is moot.

[Belz...]

Your own textbooks about your own history. The entire US history is a farce and leaves out so many things.

Do you think Pocahantas would really romantically fall in love with some white guy when they were raping and killing Native Americans to take their land?

Did you know that over 40 million Native Americans died as a result of the establishment of the US? I never knew that figure until recently. Go figure since I'm a product of the US public and private education system.

The US government has you believe that the US was only sparsely populated before Columbus arrived and that the population didn't change much afterwards. That Columbus was a hero that discovered America where it actually seems that he was one of the worst genocidal maniacs in history who merrily fed his dogs Native American meat. I don't recall reading that in any textbook.

So yeah ALOT of things left out, but we all know the "official" history.


Every single "conspiracy" has to do with history that makes the US and British look bad. Who controls the world today?

Why are we suddenly talking about Native Americans ? Let's get back on topic, folks.

[Belz...]

Yeah, because one follows the facts and the other doesn't.



Argument from personal incredulity. The USA are not invincible. 9/11 is proof of that. Pearl Harbor is proof of that.



???



Controversy <> Reality

A few dissident nutjobs < Controversy



We call those "surprise attacks" for a reason.



Aside from witnesses whom YOU think support your idea, are there any reliable witnesses. SHE WAS THERE. You weren't. Thousands of people reported these horrific acts, man. What the hell makes you so sure they didn't happen ?



Well! That makes it alright, then!

Kageki, would you mind answering my points ?

[Paulhoff]

Other things that never happened,

WWII, The Great Depression, WWI, the Spanish American War, The American Civil War, The Mexican American War, The American Revolution War.

And I’m sure kageki you can think of hundreds of more things that never happened to fit your world views.

Paul

:) :) :)

[JEROME DA GNOME]

Notice on wikipedia it says the figure is hotly contested. You wonder why it's ok to debate those numbers, but not the Holocaust. Was it really 6 million?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_history_of_American_indigenous_peoples


Estimates of how many people were living in the Americas when Columbus arrived have varied tremendously; 20th century scholarly estimates ranged from a low of 8.4 million to a high of 112.5 million persons.

We obviously do not have enough information.

[achtung circus]

Hi Nick

You're everywhere interesting, you know.

cheers,

AC

[kageki]

We obviously do not have enough information.

Jerome why don't you quote the rest of the text? Are you banking your hopes on the insulting low estimation of 8 million at the time Columbus arrived? 40 million seems like a conservative estimate.

So you have a problem with 40 million exterminated like dogs? Imagine that Germans might have a problem with 6 million dead in ovens and gas chambers.

Didn't Pressac say it's 1 million anyways? How many really did die in the Holocaust? I don't think there was any death camps.

[Darat]

kageki - what does Christopher Columbus have to do with whether the Holocaust happened or not?

[JEROME DA GNOME]

Jerome why don't you quote the rest of the text? Are you banking your hopes on the insulting low estimation of 8 million at the time Columbus arrived? 40 million seems like a conservative estimate.

So you have a problem with 40 million exterminated like dogs? Imagine that Germans might have a problem with 6 million dead in ovens and gas chambers.

Didn't Pressac say it's 1 million anyways? How many really did die in the Holocaust? I don't think there was any death camps.

I just have a problem when unsupportable numbers are thrown about willy nilly; and to question those numbers one is called names as a counter.

[Myriad]

I've grew up and still continue to live in the US.


For heaven's sake, why?

If I thought the country I was living in had an ongoing record of deliberately allowing (let alone actually perpetrating) deadly attacks against its citizens for political reasons, I'd move out of there pronto.

But, as you plan your departure, let me just say thank you for participating in the American economy for so long despite your objections to its history. Your stoicism in tolerating our evil as long as doing so benefits you personally is very admirable.

Would you like to take the opportunity to help expiate the historical wrongs you've benefited from during your stay here, by donating all your property to Native Americans when you leave? No? Okay then, maybe next time.

Buh-bye now. Thank you for flying Hypocrisy Airlines. Keep us in mind next time you're looking for a place to live comfortably while feeling morally superior.

Respectfully,
Myriad

[SDC]

Your own textbooks about your own history. The entire US history is a farce and leaves out so many things.

Do you think Pocahantas would really romantically fall in love with some white guy when they were raping and killing Native Americans to take their land?

Did you know that over 40 million Native Americans died as a result of the establishment of the US? I never knew that figure until recently. Go figure since I'm a product of the US public and private education system.

The US government has you believe that the US was only sparsely populated before Columbus arrived and that the population didn't change much afterwards. That Columbus was a hero that discovered America where it actually seems that he was one of the worst genocidal maniacs in history who merrily fed his dogs Native American meat. I don't recall reading that in any textbook.

So yeah ALOT of things left out, but we all know the "official" history.


Every single "conspiracy" has to do with history that makes the US and British look bad. Who controls the world today?

Sigh. What a crock. By the way, you now refer to "your" textbooks. I thought you said you were raised here in the US of A.

Is your point that genocide is the norm or that you hate Jews?

[SDC]

Jerome why don't you quote the rest of the text? Are you banking your hopes on the insulting low estimation of 8 million at the time Columbus arrived? 40 million seems like a conservative estimate.

So you have a problem with 40 million exterminated like dogs? Imagine that Germans might have a problem with 6 million dead in ovens and gas chambers.

Didn't Pressac say it's 1 million anyways? How many really did die in the Holocaust? I don't think there was any death camps.

You keep forgetting the millions of Jews shot, starved, and such; not gassed. Have you got something against shooting and starvation? I think this displays narrowmindedness on your part.

"I don't think there was..." Well, sadly, that proves your American education. By jiminy, I remember parsing sentences...

The Operation Reinhard/ Aktion Reinhard death camps included Treblinka, Sobibor, and Belzec. (I won't help you with pronunciation; these are all Polish locations.) They operated solely in that capacity in 1942-43. About 1.5-2 million Jews were killed in these camps alone. (I can't remember whether Auschwitz-Birkenau, Chelmno, and Majdanek were officially part of Operation Reinhard. And I don't feel like looking it up today. Those three would add another 2 mln Jews on their own.)

[Darat]

...snip...

Is your point that genocide is the norm or that you hate Jews?

By best guess at the moment is that it's the following:

"Your" ancestors killed millions of people which means that killing millions of people isn't unusual and since today you aren't consumed by guilt about what your ancestors did it means you don't really think genocide is that bad, so even though the Nazi's didn't kill millions of people, you hypocritically think the Nazi's are terrible and evil because they killed millions of people, which they didn't, but Jews smell.

[SDC]

[quote=kageki;3184030]Oh I see Marie-Claude Vaillant-Couturier another darling of Holocaust promoters who was a member of the French resistance.

The French, who got their asses kicked by the Germans. She possibly didn't have a bone to pick with the Germans including some of her seemingly exaggerated claims and ambiguous descriptions of the gassing.

...

This testimony is based on this same French resistance woman who was detained as a political prisoner describing the conditions of the camp towards the end of the war?

...
/quote (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/kapos.html[/quote)]

(Cut by me.) Crikey! You hate the French too? It must be a sad and narrow place where you come from. Get outside. Walk a dog. Say hello to your neighbors.

[SDC]

It is dishonest to quote half of a conversation and declare that it is incomprehensible.

No it isn't dishonest. Either side of a conversation should feature parsible sentences and clear phrases.

[SDC]

I believe in one conspiracy theory as you believe in another conspiracy theory.

"Magic" cables

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v04/v04p467_Greaves.html

US had broken Japanese codes. The US knew what the Japanese were up to and their capabilities. FDR knew about Pearl Harbor and let it happen.

http://whatreallyhappened.com/pearl/www.geocities.com/Pentagon/6315/pearl.html

Germany's declaration of war

Germany only declared war after Japan out of obligation to the Tripartite Pact. Germany never had intentions of declaring war on America by itself.

Japan's Intent

What exactly were the ambitions and the intent of Japan?



The "official" explanation is only one side of the argument. What were the British and the US doing at this time?

Again nothing to indicate they had any desire to attack the US which makes the story about Pearl Harbor that much more odd. Japan was fighting with Russia too and was against Communism.

I'm already well into tomorrow and this has already been dealt with, but what the heck.

Like at 9/11... the Americans had broken the Japanese code, but translation was not an instant process. It took a while.

Hitler's profound contempt for the racial mongrels of the USA (that's us, bub) was such that he had no hesitation about declaring war in support of Japan.

Are you claiming that the British and US attacked Pearl Harbor? You've lost me here.

[SDC]

Well this is straight from the horse's mouth. Las Casas says 3 million.



Notice on wikipedia it says the figure is hotly contested. You wonder why it's ok to debate those numbers, but not the Holocaust. Was it really 6 million?

At the minimum we should be saying 5 million for the Holocaust. Stephen Walt even suggested 3 million or lower.


Native American ethnocide

50 million Native Americans in 1492
8 million in 1650
2 million in 1990

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_history_of_American_indigenous_peoples
http://www.census.gov/population/socdemo/race/indian/ailang1.txt

Why do we still honor Christopher Columbus as the great discover of America when he was a mass murderer? Do Native Americans have a right to protest about that?

In Las Casas' day, numbers were used much less precisely than now.

Stephen Walt?? The professor who just co-wrote the book attacking the "Israel Lobby" in the US? Whatever one thinks of his views, he is a serious guy. Please source your claim that he said the Jewish death total could be "3 million or lower." Otherwise one can only figure that you are making things up.

[SDC]

You do realize I was referring to the hotly contested numbers of how many Columbus slaughtered?

In a rational world your reaction and comments should not even exist.

I say it's 5 million or less. To be more accurate an estimate of 5-6 million dead in the Jewish Holocaust. After all the total dead in the Holocaust is 11 million.

Tell me when the world becomes rational.

Kageki... Is this you? Are you stating that 5-6 million Jews died in the Holocaust? Or have I gotten lost in the maze?

[westprog]

Only one?

Do you know how much beer costs in Scandanavia?

[gumboot]

50 million Native Americans in 1492
8 million in 1650
2 million in 1990

Why do we still honor Christopher Columbus as the great discover of America when he was a mass murderer? Do Native Americans have a right to protest about that?


:eek: Christopher Columbus killed 6 million American Natives between 1650 and 1990! That murderous old devil!

-Gumboot

[SpitfireIX]

I believe in one conspiracy theory as you believe in another conspiracy theory.


As Arkan Wolfshade has pointed out previously, not all theories involving conspiracies are "conspiracy theories." A conspiracy theory, as the term is commonly used, postulates a conspiracy by a government or super-governmental cabal of powerful individuals or organizations.

"Magic" cables

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v04/v04p467_Greaves.html

US had broken Japanese codes. The US knew what the Japanese were up to and their capabilities. FDR knew about Pearl Harbor and let it happen.


First, as is well known, the US had broken the major Japanese diplomatic code. Please indicate which, if any, of the messages in the article point to an attack specifically at Pearl Harbor.

Second, please explain why numerous war warnings were sent to all Pacific commands during the two weeks prior to Pearl Harbor, if FDR was so keen to have a successful surprise attack.

http://whatreallyhappened.com/pearl/www.geocities.com/Pentagon/6315/pearl.html

Germany's declaration of war

Germany only declared war after Japan out of obligation to the Tripartite Pact. Germany never had intentions of declaring war on America by itself.


:dl: :dl: :dl:

Article Three of the Tripartite Pact (http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/wwii/triparti.htm) reads, in part:

They further undertake to assist one another with all political, economic and military means when one of the three contracting powers is attacked by a power at present not involved in the European war or in the Chinese-Japanese conflict.[emphasis added]


Germany was in no way obligated to declare war on the United States, because Japan attacked first. But of course if Germany had been so obligated, Hitler would have unhesitatingly done so, because he never broke or ignored any treaties or international agreements, did he? :rolleyes:


http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/170604749c0482b6a3.jpg


kageki, you are the weakest link. Goodbye.

Again nothing to indicate they had any desire to attack the US which makes the story about Pearl Harbor that much more odd. Japan was fighting with Russia too and was against Communism.


Japan attacked the United States because the Japanese did not expect the Americans to stand idly by while Japan conquered the remaining British and Dutch possessions in Asia. And Japan was not fighting the Soviet Union at this time; in fact the two had concluded a non-aggression pact in order to concentrate on what they each considered to be greater threats.

[Bell]

Do you know how much beer costs in Scandanavia?

Yeah... way too much :(

Alcoholics must have tough times overthere.

[Plantfoam]

Sigh. What a crock. By the way, you now refer to "your" textbooks. I thought you said you were raised here in the US of A.

Is your point that genocide is the norm or that you hate Jews?

He doesn't hate the Jews, he is just anti-Zionist. Yes, that interesting dichotomy again:cool:

[JimBenArm]

It is dishonest to quote half of a conversation and declare that it is incomprehensible.
Yet another post brimming with content.
Thanks, Jerome!

[JimBenArm]

Yep, those people just landed on "Ignore".
But you're going to miss out on so much humor potential!

After all, even morons, racists, and moron racists can be funny. Unintentionally, but still funny!

[Elizabeth I]

You can't have it both ways. First you said the U.S. was "duped" into joining the war; now they were the ones doing the duping? And you seem to have a thing about countries "provoking" other countries into attacking. What were the Allies doing, jumping around going "Nyah, nyah, nyah" and thumbing their noses?

It's a well know historical fact: http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...47#post3182447

A courageous and stalwart people, your island race...

[Hokulele]

But you're going to miss out on so much humor potential!

After all, even morons, racists, and moron racists can be funny. Unintentionally, but still funny!


This way I do not have to bite my tongue every time kageki posts something unfunnily stupid, and it saves a great deal of time not having to scroll past all the Jerome content-free posts (such as your previous quote).

In any case, I am not too worried, the best stuff will be quoted for my enjoyment. :)

[JEROME DA GNOME]

Yet another post brimming with content.
Thanks, Jerome!

Elementary tool used to influence others to disregard content which you can not counter.

Do you really think those on this forum fall for such playground tactics?

Maybe you should present your wears at nickelodeon.com (http://www.nick.com/)

[Belz...]

By best guess at the moment is that it's the following:

"Your" ancestors killed millions of people which means that killing millions of people isn't unusual and since today you aren't consumed by guilt about what your ancestors did it means you don't really think genocide is that bad, so even though the Nazi's didn't kill millions of people, you hypocritically think the Nazi's are terrible and evil because they killed millions of people, which they didn't, but Jews smell.


Yeah, I think that sums it up, quite nicely.

[westprog]

Why are we suddenly talking about Native Americans ? Let's get back on topic, folks.

It's relevant in the sense that there are three ways to deny the Holocaust. We've seen all three on this thread.

The first is to just say that it didn't happen. This is clearly the silliest. The evidence is overwhelming that regardless of details, the Nazis killed many millions of people due to their race.

The second is to refuse to deny the holocaust, but to concentrate on minor issues and say that one isn't denying anything. This can be addressed by repeatedly stressing the big picture and ignoring the side issues. Does it matter whether it was six million or five million? Clearly it matters, but saying it was five million doesn't exonerate the Nazis.

The third form of denial is to say, yes the Nazis did terrible things, but the Russians were as bad, the Americans dropped the atom bomb, and the British burned Dresden. Aren't they all the same? This is a difficult one to counter, since it's not fundamentally wrong. Ultimately, it's a matter of personal judgement to say that the Nazi extermination of millions on racist grounds is in a different category from what the Allies did in trying to end the war and save the people that the Nazis were trying to murder.

[JimBenArm]

Elementary tool used to influence others to disregard content which you can not counter.

Do you really think those on this forum fall for such playground tactics?

Maybe you should present your wears at nickelodeon.com (http://www.nick.com/)
What, and ruin your gig? Wouldn't think of intruding on your territory!
But thanks for thinking of me!

[Architect]

Ironically, Schinler's List is on digital here in the UK this evening.

Doubltess our little anti-semites will hand-wave it away as propoganda, fabrication, or a combination of both.

The irony, as I've said before, is that it doesn't really matter what these fellows think. The Holocaust is accepted as fact in most of the world. Europe (especially Europe), the Americas, and Antipodes. It's taught in school. It's covered extensively in libraries and other learning resources.

In contrast, our little friends are hounded (rightly) for their racist, anti-semetic views. They are (rightly) denied a mouthpiece in mainstream publicaiton. They have no hold in the academic world. They are, in fact, illegal in several countries.

So I don't really think it matters what they say. Few people listen, fewer still care. That the Nazi apologists, the anti-semites, and the racists continue to hold their views is nothing more than a damning indictment on the hatred, small-mindedness, and sheer ignorance of people. That's about it.

Moreover they apparently hide behind the freedom of expression set out in the US constitution. They can't prove their assertions about the Holocaust being a fake, so they need a system which tolerates this rubbish. They want to wage war on other races, and live in a system which appears reluctant to fetter such actions. Oh, these clowns in the BNP would give their eye-teeth to be able to spout the same claptrap in public.

For one, I'm 100% glad to be in a country where the law acts to prevent the worst of their bile being played out on the public stage. And frankly I don't care if they don't like it. They can always come over and complain. I can't want to see what happens to them.......

[westprog]

The Holocaust is accepted as fact in most of the world.

They have no hold in the academic world.

But there's a part of the world where their view is not only accepted, but dominant, and where they not only have a hold in academia, but are the only viewpoint permitted.

[SDC]

Elementary tool used to influence others to disregard content which you can not counter.


Cut down by me so I can ask.

Are you stating that JimBenArm is an "elementary tool..."? or that he uses... never mind.

[Architect]

But there's a part of the world where their view is not only accepted, but dominant, and where they not only have a hold in academia, but are the only viewpoint permitted.

I was in Saudi for a while. I'm familiar with the views espoused by some in those parts of the world. It saddens me. But then their views on religion and appropriate punishments also worry me. Fortunately it seems geographically restricted.

Perhaps our little anti-semites should emmigrate?

[JimBenArm]

Cut down by me so I can ask.

Are you stating that JimBenArm is an "elementary tool..."? or that he uses... never mind.
Oh, come on. You can say it!

[SDC]

There are certain things, in the presence of which, one should only close the curtains and tiptoe silently away.

[JEROME DA GNOME]

For one, I'm 100% glad to be in a country where the law acts to prevent the worst of their bile being played out on the public stage. And frankly I don't care if they don't like it. They can always come over and complain. I can't want to see what happens to them.......

One should be careful of happiness with legal presidents set which curtail speech.

[SDC]

One should be careful of happiness with legal presidents set which curtail speech.

"Legal presidents..."? I think you meant to post this over in Oliver's "Rigged elections" thread.

[JimBenArm]

One should be careful of happiness with legal presidents set which curtail speech.
Or posts devoid of content after whining about others doing the same.

[JEROME DA GNOME]

"Legal presidents..."? I think you meant to post this over in Oliver's "Rigged elections" thread.

Are you unclear of what a legal president is?

It seems so based on your response.

[JEROME DA GNOME]

Or posts devoid of content after whining about others doing the same.

Your are irony incarnate.

[bynmdsue]

Are you unclear of what a legal president is?


Is it anything like a "legal precedent"?

[twinstead]

Are you unclear of what a legal president is?

It seems so based on your response.

Do you mean legal precedent?

ETA: I was beat to this one :)

[SDC]

Is it anything like a "legal precedent"?

Yoo hoo, JdG. Please respond to bynmdsue. It's no big deal; you just made an amusing slip. Lighten up!

[Architect]

One should be careful of happiness with legal presidents set which curtail speech.


Your ignorance of the law, and the protection of human rights in the UK, is quite spectacular. Tell me, do you research everything quite so well, or is this just a temporary blip on the horizon?

[SDC]

Anything more about Holocaust denial? Atrain disappeared quite a while ago; Magz merely hopped in and out; Kageki seems to have disappeared, too, though it may have something to do with time zones. What we are left with is JdG's failure to spellcheck. (Or since "president" is spelled correctly, maybe his crime was to rely on a spellcheck program rather than a dictionary. Any librarian could have told him not to do that.) So it goes.

I'm still wondering how the guys down at the beer hall, or at Joe Goebbels' Bar'n'Grill, took to Kageki, who says he is of Japanese ancestry. K, would you respond?

[Architect]

Just as an aside, I thought that this quote from the judgment against Irving was rather appropriate in the context of the current discussion:


It is not difficult to discern a pattern to the activities and attitudes to which I have alluded in the preceding paragraph. Over the past fifteen years or so, Irving appears to have become more active politically than was previously the case. He speaks regularly at political or quasi-political meetings in Germany, the United States, Canada and the New World. The content of his speeches and interviews often displays a distinctly pro-Nazi and anti-Jewish bias. He makes surprising and often unfounded assertions about the Nazi regime which tend to exonerate the Nazis for the appalling atrocities which they inflicted on the Jews. He is content to mix with neo-fascists and appears to share many of their racist and anti-semitic prejudices. The picture of Irving which emerges from the evidence of his extra-curricular activities reveals him to be a right-wing pro-Nazi polemicist. In my view the Defendants have established that Irving has a political agenda. It is one which, it is legitimate to infer, disposes him, where he deems it necessary, to manipulate the historical record in order to make it conform with his political beliefs.

[kageki]

:eek: Christopher Columbus killed 6 million American Natives between 1650 and 1990! That murderous old devil!

-Gumboot

Well I don't think Columbus was around by then was he? Maybe you forgot the 40 million in 1492 to 8 million in 1650?

Way to remain in denial about the ethnic cleansing of Native Americans. But you see Columbus was a good old chap! Apparently Native Americans would disagree with you Gumboot. Do you have the courage to say your praises about Columbus to a Native American's face?

http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/41/385.html

[JimBenArm]

Your are irony incarnate.
Yes, yes I am. You, however, are oblivious to it in yourself.

[SDC]

About the Irving trial: first, assume my ignorance of the English legal system.

I had always heard that the burden is very much on the defendant in a libel/ slander trial. In the US, the general saying (which is probably incomplete or only accurate to some degree) is that the truth, in these cases, is a sure defense. If I say Fred chops puppies for breakfast, and he sues me, but it turns out that he does chop etc., he's not going to win his case.

I was honestly surprised when he lost the English case. There is no question that rude things had been said publicly about him, by Lipstadt as well as others. Did the decision break precedent in some way, or is it just my failure to understand?

[SDC]

Well I don't think Columbus was around by then was he? Maybe you forgot the 40 million in 1492 to 8 million in 1650?

Way to remain in denial about the ethnic cleansing of Native Americans. But you see Columbus was a good old chap! Apparently Native Americans would disagree with you Gumboot. Do you have the courage to say your praises about Columbus to a Native American's face?

http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/41/385.html

He's back! He's bad!

He's leading the fight for Native American rights...???

Yo, K. What about the Holocaust? You know, the one in Europe in 1938-45 (generally considered as the defining dates: Kristallnacht to VE day.)

[Architect]

About the Irving trial: first, assume my ignorance of the English legal system.

I had always heard that the burden is very much on the defendant in a libel/ slander trial. In the US, the general saying (which is probably incomplete or only accurate to some degree) is that the truth, in these cases, is a sure defense. If I say Fred chops puppies for breakfast, and he sues me, but it turns out that he does chop etc., he's not going to win his case.

I was honestly surprised when he lost the English case. There is no question that rude things had been said publicly about him, by Lipstadt as well as others. Did the decision break precedent in some way, or is it just my failure to understand?


Correct, however it is your failure to understand the English legal system but also the wider case that is of note here.

For a start, Irving was not the defendant. He was the Pursuer. Irving sued Dr. Lipstadt and her British publisher, Penguin Books Ltd., for libel, saying his reputation as an historian was defamed. The suit was filed in England, where libel laws favour the plaintiff.

Irving represented himself.

Judge Gray found that Irving had "for his own ideological reasons persistently and deliberately misrepresented and manipulated historical evidence" in order to portray Hitler "in an unwarrantedly favourable light" particularly in his treatment of the Jews. Irving had "significantly" misrepresented, misconstrued, omitted, mistranslated, misread and applied double standards to the historical evidence in order to achieve his ideological presentation of history.

Judge Gray also found that Irving was an "active Holocaust denier; that he is anti-semite and racist, and that he associates with right-wing extremists who promote neo-Nazism".

Irving's appeal was dismissed.

[kageki]

I just have a problem when unsupportable numbers are thrown about willy nilly; and to question those numbers one is called names as a counter.

Well estimated numbers have been reached between scholars apparently. Yeah thinking how the great country of the USA was founded by the systematic slaughter that resulted in about 40 million Native Americans dead is definitely hard to wrap your head around.

Is the 6 million supported for the Holocaust? Why not 5 million? I'm thinking it's actually 1 million or less.

[twinstead]

Well estimated numbers have been reached between scholars apparently. Yeah thinking how the great country of the USA was founded by the systematic slaughter that resulted in about 40 million Native Americans dead is definitely hard to wrap your head around.


I see hyperbole and appeal to emotion has been honed to a fine art here.

[Architect]

I note with some amusement that you have veered away from the kicking you're getting on Holocaust Denial.

Let me make life easy for you.

The genocide, whether deliberate or otherwise, of the natives in the Americas following European contact is a tragedy. No matter whether 100 thousand or a million died, it is a matter of great import and regret. All of us should be shamed by it.

However no-one is suggesting that the deaths occured, and that a considerable proportion of the populations fell victim to (for example) imported diseases and general deprivation. No-one is suggesting that it was a massive plot orchestrated by the Native Americans. There are laws to prevent (or at least try to prevent) genocide.

Now, unless you're suggesting that this in some way exonerates the perpetrators of all subsequent murders, get back to the point at hand.

[technoextreme]

I see hyperbole and appeal to emotion has been honed to a fine art here.
True. Is there a fancy latin name to sidestepping the argument with irrelevant facts?

[Architect]

True. Is there a fancy latin name to sidestepping the argument with irrelevant facts?

Politics?

;)

[JEROME DA GNOME]

Is it anything like a "legal precedent"?

Just like that, I spell it differently over here.;)

[Architect]

Aye, well, you're playing free and easy with interpretation of fact so there's no reason to assume that your approach to grammar would be any better.....

[JEROME DA GNOME]

Yoo hoo, JdG. Please respond to bynmdsue. It's no big deal; you just made an amusing slip. Lighten up!

Just caught it, thanks.:)

[JEROME DA GNOME]

Your ignorance of the law, and the protection of human rights in the UK, is quite spectacular. Tell me, do you research everything quite so well, or is this just a temporary blip on the horizon?

Nice job at not responding to the content and attacking the knowledge base of the poster.

[Belz...]

The third form of denial is to say, yes the Nazis did terrible things, but the Russians were as bad, the Americans dropped the atom bomb, and the British burned Dresden. Aren't they all the same? This is a difficult one to counter, since it's not fundamentally wrong. Ultimately, it's a matter of personal judgement to say that the Nazi extermination of millions on racist grounds is in a different category from what the Allies did in trying to end the war and save the people that the Nazis were trying to murder.

Well, it IS fundamentally wrong, because it's a tu quoque, basically.

[Belz...]

Well I don't think Columbus was around by then was he? Maybe you forgot the 40 million in 1492 to 8 million in 1650?

Way to remain in denial about the ethnic cleansing of Native Americans. But you see Columbus was a good old chap! Apparently Native Americans would disagree with you Gumboot. Do you have the courage to say your praises about Columbus to a Native American's face?

http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/41/385.html

Who's "praising Columbus" ? And if somebody's praising him, it's surely not for murder.

Anyway, you still haven't answered my question: how is this relevant ?

Is the 6 million supported for the Holocaust? Why not 5 million? I'm thinking it's actually 1 million or less.

And 1 million wouldn't be horrible enough to call the Nazis monsters ?

[JimBenArm]

Nice job at not responding to the content and attacking the knowledge base of the poster.
Yes, it's amazing how you do that!

[kageki]

He's back! He's bad!

He's leading the fight for Native American rights...???

Yo, K. What about the Holocaust? You know, the one in Europe in 1938-45 (generally considered as the defining dates: Kristallnacht to VE day.)

Is there anything wrong in standing up for the Native Americans?

What about the Holocaust? The ethnic cleansing of Native Americans completely dwarfs that, but let's try to get to the bottom of the Holocaust.


- 6 million seems incorrect. It seems to be much less then that so I would like to determine what a more factual number would be to use. 5 million? 1 million? Why don't we stop with the charade and keep saying it's 6 million?

- There never was a specific plan to exterminate Jews. The Final Solution seems to indicate it was about deportation.

- There never was any extermination camp. Nazis did not burn people alive in ovens. Only dead bodies cremated. Nazis never exterminated mass amounts of Jews in gas chambers. Nazis never shipped these people to the camps only to exterminate them in droves in a factory. They were labor and relocation camps.

The Holocaust pertaining to the Jewish people seem to be largely exaggerated with fabricated elements and not even 6 million either. The Nazis did seem to have a greater plan for racial purity, but it was never just about the Jews.

[Architect]

Nice job at not responding to the content and attacking the knowledge base of the poster.

I'm sure that even you can see the inherrent absurdity of that point.

You failed to display any grasp of freedom of speech issue in the UK. Don't complain when I point it out to you.

[Architect]

Is there anything wrong in standing up for the Native Americans?

What about the Holocaust? The ethnic cleansing of Native Americans completely dwarfs that, but let's try to get to the bottom of the Holocaust.


- 6 million seems incorrect. It seems to be much less then that so I would like to determine what a more factual number would be to use. 5 million? 1 million? Why don't we stop with the charade and keep saying it's 6 million?

- There never was a specific plan to exterminate Jews. The Final Solution seems to indicate it was about deportation.

- There never was any extermination camp. Nazis did not burn people alive in ovens. Only dead bodies cremated. Nazis never exterminated mass amounts of Jews in gas chambers. Nazis never shipped these people to the camps only to exterminate them in droves in a factory. They were labor and relocation camps.

The Holocaust pertaining to the Jewish people seem to be largely exaggerated with fabricated elements and not even 6 million either. The Nazis did seem to have a greater plan for racial purity, but it was never just about the Jews.

Then explain why David Irving lost his court case, eh?

[JEROME DA GNOME]

I'm sure that even you can see the inherrent absurdity of that point.

You failed to display any grasp of freedom of speech issue in the UK. Don't complain when I point it out to you.

You have made zero declarations about freedom of speech in the UK. You have disputed nothing I have stated. You have only declared that I know not what I say.


Let us start over and have a conversation.

You may begin with the current issues of free speech in the UK concerning Holocaust denial.

[Belz...]

- 6 million seems incorrect.

"Seems" how ?

It seems to be much less then that so I would like to determine what a more factual number would be to use. 5 million? 1 million? Why don't we stop with the charade and keep saying it's 6 million?

Because you just CLAIM it's not 6 million. Would you mind backing that up ?

- There never was a specific plan to exterminate Jews. The Final Solution seems to indicate it was about deportation.

http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/GENOCIDE/browning1.htm

- There never was any extermination camp. Nazis did not burn people alive in ovens. Only dead bodies cremated. Nazis never exterminated mass amounts of Jews in gas chambers. Nazis never shipped these people to the camps only to exterminate them in droves in a factory. They were labor and relocation camps.

And how can you tell, since you ignore the very people who LIVED in those camps ?

The Holocaust pertaining to the Jewish people seem to be largely exaggerated with fabricated elements and not even 6 million either. The Nazis did seem to have a greater plan for racial purity, but it was never just about the Jews.

And how does that make them less of the monsters that they were ?

[JEROME DA GNOME]

"Seems" how ?

Because their were 6 million missing Jews from Europe after the war and we know that not all were killed.

[twinstead]

Then explain why David Irving lost his court case, eh?

Cases like this are interesting. It's really the only time historical revisionists and conspiracy theorists' evidence sees a legitimate courtroom environment. It's a rare event.

I wish it happened more often. I see evidence that is accepted blindly by conspiracy theorists that would NEVER survive formal scrutiny all the time on this and other forums.

It's one thing to throw out unsubstantiated claims on an internet forum; it's quite another to expose them to expert scrutiny in a formal trial environment.

[kageki]

Anyway, you still haven't answered my question: how is this relevant ?

Well the conversation veered in that direction, but when you think about it is highly relevant.

What the European colonists did does not seem any different from what the Nazis did, but Nazis are evil and the colonists generally regarded as the great discoverers of the US.

People naturally are hesitant accepting that around 40 million Native Americans were exterminated by the colonists. If it is ok to question those numbers then why is it illegal in some places to question the Holocaust numbers?

By comparing these 2 events it more then illustrates the ridiculous bias in the discussion that occurs about the Holocaust.


And 1 million wouldn't be horrible enough to call the Nazis monsters ?

Did I ever say the Nazis weren't these horrible, baby-eating monsters? I just want to know what is more accurate. 1 million or 6 million?

1 million dead in the Holocaust.

[kageki]

Then explain why David Irving lost his court case, eh?

Do you think OJ was innocent or guilty? Are some rulings incorrect? Yes.

[JEROME DA GNOME]

Do you think OJ was innocent or guilty? Are some rulings incorrect? Yes.

If the gloves don't fit, you must acquit.

http://www.melonride.com/pastissues/art3/oj.jpg

[twinstead]

This page satisfies me that approx. 6 million is an historically arguable point:

http://www.nizkor.org/features/qar/qar01.html

[drkitten]

- 6 million seems incorrect. It seems to be much less then that so I would like to determine what a more factual number would be to use. 5 million? 1 million? Why don't we stop with the charade and keep saying it's 6 million?

Because six million seems to be the number that best fits the historical evidence.


- There never was a specific plan to exterminate Jews.

A single specific plan, no. There were several. For example, Operation Reinhard, the plan to operate three extermination camps in Poland.

The Final Solution seems to indicate it was about deportation.

Only superficially.



- There never was any extermination camp.

There were three : Belzec, Treblinka, and Sobibor.

Nazis did not burn people alive in ovens.

This is true. They burned people alive in ditches instead.

Only dead bodies cremated.

We have testimony from the soldiers and officers responsible for setting the ditches on fire.

Nazis never exterminated mass amounts of Jews in gas chambers.

Treblinka alone had ten gas chambers with a capacity of something like five thousand people a day. Again, we have statements from the people responsible for constructing and running them (see, in particular, Erich Bauer, the so-called Gasmeister of Sobibor, who estimated that 350,000 Jews had been gassed at Sobibor alone, and that Sobibor had the smallest body count among the three camps.

Estimates for deaths at those three camps alone run to between 1.5 and 2 million Jews.


Nazis never shipped these people to the camps only to exterminate them in droves in a factory.

We have train records; more than 500,000 Jews were shipped to Belzec alone. If they were relocation camps, where were they relocated to (and how? Not by train.) If they were labor camps, what were they laboring on (and how did the product of their labor leave the camps? Not by train). I can even be more precise than that; the surviving records document at least 519,392, of which no more than five are known to have survived.

They were labor and relocation camps.

What kind of "labor" kills 500,000 people in a year and a half?

[twinstead]

Do you think OJ was innocent or guilty? Are some rulings incorrect? Yes.

Well. What if this ruling WAS correct? What if when exposed to scrutiny your theory DOESN'T hold up.

What then?

[JEROME DA GNOME]

This page satisfies me that approx. 6 million is an historically arguable point:

http://www.nizkor.org/features/qar/qar01.html

Agreed.

[drkitten]

Did I ever say the Nazis weren't these horrible, baby-eating monsters? I just want to know what is more accurate. 1 million or 6 million?

1 million dead in the Holocaust.

1.7 million dead in Treblinka, Sobibor, and Belzec alone -- just three camps and a year and a half out of the total might of the German Reich -- suggests that six million is more accurate. 1 million is highly inaccurate even if no Jew died elsewhere in the Reich at all between 1935-1945, which of course is preposterous.

[Redtail]

Well the conversation veered in that direction, but when you think about it is highly relevant.

What the European colonists did does not seem any different from what the Nazis did, but Nazis are evil and the colonists generally regarded as the great discoverers of the US.

Theres that "seem" again. When did the colonists round up the natives and kill them again?

People naturally are hesitant accepting that around 40 million Native Americans were exterminated by the colonists. If it is ok to question those numbers then why is it illegal in some places to question the Holocaust numbers?

Is it illegal where you live?


Did I ever say the Nazis weren't these horrible, baby-eating monsters? I just want to know what is more accurate. 1 million or 6 million?

1 million dead in the Holocaust.

And you can back up your number?

[kageki]

1.7 million dead in Treblinka, Sobibor, and Belzec alone -- just three camps and a year and a half out of the total might of the German Reich -- suggests that six million is more accurate. 1 million is highly inaccurate even if no Jew died elsewhere in the Reich at all between 1935-1945, which of course is preposterous.

How many of them were Jews? How did they exactly die? Are those numbers even accurate?

Maybe you all can start providing sources to prove your claim that 6 million Jews were systematically killed.

[drkitten]

How many of them were Jews?

Those numbers are estimates for Jewish deaths. So, all of them.

How did they exactly die?

In the gas chambers, for the most part. The procedure is well-documented. Although it's not clear how relevant this question is. If the Germans had decided to machine-gun them instead, would they be less dead?

Are those numbers even accurate?

To the best available historical evidence, yes. They're "estimates," which implies a certain amount of guesswork. But on the other hand, we know of 500,000 Jews that went into Belzec and died there.



Maybe you all can start providing sources to prove your claim that 6 million Jews were systematically killed.

Start with Yitzhak Arad, The Operation Reinhard Death Camps. If you want something web-accessible, start at www.holocaust-history.org and work from there.

[Gravy]

Maybe you all can start providing sources to prove your claim that 6 million Jews were systematically killed.

Fourth time, kageki:

http://www.nizkor.org/

Will you stop being an ignorant baby, and try to be a rational adult? Can you?

[drkitten]

Fourth time, kageki:

http://www.nizkor.org/

Lying About Hitler (Richard Evans) is another good source. It covers most of the general details and specifically refutes many of the lies told in the name of Holocaust denial. (It is, of course, a book-version of Evans' expert report at the Irving trial. So if you think the Irving case was mis-decided, perhaps you can also point to the errors of fact in the fairly damning expert report....)

[JEROME DA GNOME]

Fourth time, kageki:

http://www.nizkor.org/

Will you stop being an ignorant baby, and try to be a rational adult? Can you?

Why are you spamming this thread with the same link for the fourth time with zero content added and then blatantly insulting posters?

:mad:

[Redtail]

Why are you spamming this thread with the same link for the fourth time with zero content added and then blatantly insulting posters?

:mad:

Because kageki asks for proof then ignores the link?:confused:

[TheRedWorm]

With all due respect, Jerome, the link is the content. Also, I will give Gravy a pass here, as I think that Holocaust deniers and racists are worthy of nothing but contempt. However, if the poster feels offended, he/she can always report the offending remark.

[JEROME DA GNOME]

With all due respect, Jerome, the link is the content. Also, I will give Gravy a pass here, as I think that Holocaust deniers and racists are worthy of nothing but contempt. However, if the poster feels offended, he/she can always report the offending remark.

I would contend that it would be proper to draw something from the link to evidence a claim.

The insults are just tasteless.

[Pak43]

Do you think OJ was innocent or guilty? Are some rulings incorrect? Yes.

Indeed, but not this one as any review of the evidence will show...

Finally Irving gripped the small podium in front of him and challenged Robert Jan to go to Auschwitz "with a trowel and clean away the gravel and find a reinforced concrete hole". If the holes were found Irving proclaimed "I would happily abandon my action immediately... It would drive such a hole through my case that I would have no possible chance of defending it any further"

Between the closure of the case and the appeal...

Harry Mazal, an engineer and expert in Computer Science carefully examined the remains of the roof of Crema 2. Using computer modelling and mathematical analysis they found what they believe to be 3 of the 4 holes. Van Pelt asked a professional engineer to review these findings. He found them so compelling that they were appended to Van Pelts 2nd report and submitted to the court of appeal.

David Irving subsequently withdrew, before review, both of the documents he had submitted as the basis of his appeal...

He lost, he lost fair and square on the basis that his own evidence was found to be flawed not to say engineered...

From the QC's summing up...

"Irving's treatment of the historical evidence is so perverse and egregious that it is difficult to accept that it is inadvertance on his part.....<snip> He has deliberately skewed the evidence to bring it in line with his political beliefs"

To put this into context a judge attended a dinner near the end of the trial which Lipstadt happened to be at, he gave her a warning...

"Do not anticipate a rousing condemnation of Irving from Charles Gray. British judges practice judicial restraint. A judge who believes a witness lied will say 'I did not find this witness helpful' Everyone at the Law Courts knows this is judicial shorthand for 'He's a liar'. THe judge however is not going to say so..."

That's how damning this verdict was, a total and utter refutation of everything Irving had launched the case for. He was proved to be a liar, a charlatan and a poor historian...

[kageki]

Fourth time, kageki:

http://www.nizkor.org/

Will you stop being an ignorant baby, and try to be a rational adult? Can you?

What exactly is the point of just linking the entirety of the site? I've read the articles on there and I don't find some of them persuasive especially on the contentious issues. Gravy why is it so hard for you to debate the specific issues?

Was it 6 million? Isn't the conservative estimate 5-6 million?

Would you have a problem if I said that 5 million Jews died in the Holocaust and not 6 million? 3 million?

[Gravy]

What exactly is the point of just linking the entirety of the site? I've read the articles on there and I don't find some of them persuasive especially on the contentious issues. Gravy why is it so hard for you to debate the specific issues? Yeah, it's too much to ask that you get informed about the subject you're whining about.

I gave you the link to the 66 IHR questions that Nizkor answered, and asked you to present your case as to specifically what they get wrong.

I guess you can't, and you're just here to whine. That's sad.

[Paulhoff]

http://www.archives.gov/research/holocaust/

http://www.eisenhower.utexas.edu/dl/holocaust/holocaustpage.html

Paul

:) :) :)

[drkitten]

Was it 6 million? Isn't the conservative estimate 5-6 million?

Yes, that's the accepted (and historically supported) range of estimates, although most of the estimates are at the higher end of that range. Anywhere reasonably close is fine by me.



Would you have a problem if I said that 5 million Jews died in the Holocaust and not 6 million?

A problem? No. I might have a suspicion, though. Why are you deliberately cherry-picking from the lower end of the range? (Similarly, what is "conservative" about 5 million instead of 6 million? Why is it "conservative" to minimize deaths? Who or what are you trying to "conserve," and against what are you protecting it?)

3 million?

Given that that's somewhere between 50-60% of the accepted figures, I would say that that's not a very good estimate. No, I'd say that's a very bad estimate. If you really knew nothing about the Holocaust, I might be willing to consider a mis-statement of that magnitude to be a correctable error borne of ignorance. But that's obviously not the case. You're obviously familiar with the more traditional number of 6 million. On what basis do you reject 6 million and prefer 3?

[Elizabeth I]

Because their were 6 million missing Jews from Europe after the war and we know that not all were killed.

We do?

[Corsair 115]

Say, did any of the resident Holocaust deniers ever answer my question about if the Holocaust didn't happen does that make the Nazis a swell bunch who were just misunderstood?

[JimBenArm]

We do?
Of course! The rest were just inconvenienced slightly. Haven't you learned anything from our esteemed antizionists here? (gag)

[Architect]

Say, did any of the resident Holocaust deniers ever answer my question about if the Holocaust didn't happen does that make the Nazis a swell bunch who were just misunderstood?

I think that was the limited number of posts where they tried to claim that Poland "had it coming to them", to coin a phrase. :rolleyes:

[kageki]

A problem? No. I might have a suspicion, though. Why are you deliberately cherry-picking from the lower end of the range?


Why are you deliberately cherry-picking from the higher end of the range? How about 5.5 million dead?

If it's perfectly ok to use the higher estimate of 6 million then I don't see any reason why I can't say 5 million when I believe that is a more factual number.

Is nizkor the only valid source for the figure or where do you get your source from?



(Similarly, what is "conservative" about 5 million instead of 6 million? Why is it "conservative" to minimize deaths? Who or what are you trying to "conserve," and against what are you protecting it?)

Are you people seriously that afraid to be labeled a neo-Nazi that you would go this far to appease the Holocaust survivors? You well know what a "conservative estimate" is supposed to mean. There is always a "conservative" estimate and a higher estimate.

I don't think any scholar would point out something silly like that in my use of the word "conservative estimate".

[westprog]

I was in Saudi for a while. I'm familiar with the views espoused by some in those parts of the world. It saddens me. But then their views on religion and appropriate punishments also worry me. Fortunately it seems geographically restricted.

Perhaps our little anti-semites should emmigrate?

I see from the recent case where a rape victim was sentenced to be flogged that it hasn't changed much since I was there. One side effect is that I'm never likely to refer to the USA as a police state run by religious fundamentalists.

[westprog]

Well, it IS fundamentally wrong, because it's a tu quoque, basically.

When it's used as an excuse - which it often is, for example on this thread - then it's fundamentally wrong.

However, if someone is claiming that what the Nazis did was unprecedented and totally unique in human history, then it's legitimate to point out a long list of atrocities, committed for many different reasons.

This is not a harmful thing to do. The way to learn from the Nazis is not to hive them off into a seperate compartment of history. What they did is being done still. In 1945 it might have seemed that racial strife had been brought to an end, and the big struggle would be between economic models. That's not what's happened. There are mini-Nazis all over the world, killing their neighbours.

[funk de fino]

Why are you deliberately cherry-picking from the higher end of the range? How about 5.5 million dead?

If it's perfectly ok to use the higher estimate of 6 million then I don't see any reason why I can't say 5 million when I believe that is a more factual number.

Is nizkor the only valid source for the figure or where do you get your source from?


Are you people seriously that afraid to be labeled a neo-Nazi that you would go this far to appease the Holocaust survivors? You well know what a "conservative estimate" is supposed to mean. There is always a "conservative" estimate and a higher estimate.

I don't think any scholar would point out something silly like that in my use of the word "conservative estimate".

How many people were killed in the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki in the Empire of Japan?

[leftysergeant]

Oh, BTW, I take it that those of you who think Poland provoked Hitler are entirely cool with the invasion and occupation of Iraq, right?

[MG1962]

Oh, BTW, I take it that those of you who think Poland provoked Hitler are entirely cool with the invasion and occupation of Iraq, right?

Yes pre-emptive retaliation.......... ya gotta love the spin doctors

[Darat]

Well the conversation veered in that direction, but when you think about it is highly relevant.

What the European colonists did does not seem any different from what the Nazis did, but Nazis are evil and the colonists generally regarded as the great discoverers of the US.

People naturally are hesitant accepting that around 40 million Native Americans were exterminated by the colonists. If it is ok to question those numbers then why is it illegal in some places to question the Holocaust numbers?

By comparing these 2 events it more then illustrates the ridiculous bias in the discussion that occurs about the Holocaust.



Did I ever say the Nazis weren't these horrible, baby-eating monsters? I just want to know what is more accurate. 1 million or 6 million?

1 million dead in the Holocaust.

Kageki - you have my permission to use my shorter summary of your "position"

By best guess at the moment is that it's the following:

"Your" ancestors killed millions of people which means that killing millions of people isn't unusual and since today you aren't consumed by guilt about what your ancestors did it means you don't really think genocide is that bad, so even though the Nazi's didn't kill millions of people, you hypocritically think the Nazi's are terrible and evil because they killed millions of people, which they didn't, but Jews smell.

[Darat]

...snip...

You may begin with the current issues of free speech in the UK concerning Holocaust denial.


What free speech issue - there isn't any!

[kageki]

Oh, BTW, I take it that those of you who think Poland provoked Hitler are entirely cool with the invasion and occupation of Iraq, right?

It's not even a same comparison. Iraq did nothing. You lose.

[Darat]

When it's used as an excuse - which it often is, for example on this thread - then it's fundamentally wrong.

However, if someone is claiming that what the Nazis did was unprecedented and totally unique in human history, then it's legitimate to point out a long list of atrocities, committed for many different reasons.

This is not a harmful thing to do. The way to learn from the Nazis is not to hive them off into a seperate compartment of history. What they did is being done still. In 1945 it might have seemed that racial strife had been brought to an end, and the big struggle would be between economic models. That's not what's happened. There are mini-Nazis all over the world, killing their neighbours.

Only as long as the comparisons you are making are in fact apple to apple and not apple to pear. For example the Nazi's (as far as I am) aware were the first group to "industrialise" their attempt at genocide.

[funk de fino]

Look who is to speak at the Oxford Union. Isn't that a turn up for the books?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/oxfordshire/7111933.stm

[westprog]

Only as long as the comparisons you are making are in fact apple to apple and not apple to pear. For example the Nazi's (as far as I am) aware were the first group to "industrialise" their attempt at genocide.

Exactly. It's a tricky business to compare the different atrocities of the twentieth century, and there's considerable scope for the likes of Kageki to throw in random horrors out of history and to imply that the Nazis weren't so special after all. To show that what they did was unique and uniquely reprehensible, it's necessary to show that not only did they kill many millions of people, they did so in an organised, planned way using the full resources of a modern state.

It's a reasonable thing to compare what they did with the other mass exterminations of the twentieth century, and the extent to which Stalin's actions are apples or pears is a matter of judgement.

[kageki]

Exactly. It's a tricky business to compare the different atrocities of the twentieth century, and there's considerable scope for the likes of Kageki to throw in random horrors out of history and to imply that the Nazis weren't so special after all. To show that what they did was unique and uniquely reprehensible, it's necessary to show that not only did they kill many millions of people, they did so in an organised, planned way using the full resources of a modern state.

It's a reasonable thing to compare what they did with the other mass exterminations of the twentieth century, and the extent to which Stalin's actions are apples or pears is a matter of judgement.

Nazis didn't have a death factory. That is the crux of the Holocaust debate and the sole reason why Nazis are considered so evil.

Even without a death factory, it's pretty clear the Nazis did kill many people not unlike any other country during war.

It turns out it's not even unique because the colonists did exactly the same thing to Native Americans and killed more. 100 million dead.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_history_of_American_indigenous_peoples

Historian David Stannard is of the opinion that the indigenous peoples of America (including Hawaii[16]) were the victims of a "Euro-American genocidal war."[17] While conceding that the majority of the indigenous peoples fell victim to the ravages of European disease, he estimates that almost 100 million died in what he calls the American Holocaust.[18] Stannard's perspective has been joined by Kirkpatrick Sale, Ben Kiernan, Lenore A. Stiffarm, and Phil Lane, Jr., among others; the perspective has been further refined by Ward Churchill, who has said that "it was precisely malice, not nature, that did the deed."[17] -- the Europeans chose to spread diseases.

Off course this notion of an American Holocaust and targeted genocide is contested. Not a surprise as it would would lose the raison d'etre to demonize Nazis. Nazis are the most convenient scapegoats of history.

Germans never had a death factory. Maybe people should be reminded that the original neo-Nazi, racist, sick bastards are Germans and they bring up good points.

No gas chambers. No ovens. Not even close to 6 million.

[Darat]

The derail in regards to Iraq has been moved, pelase keep to the topic under discussion.

[Darat]

Nazis didn't have a death factory. That is the crux of the Holocaust debate and the sole reason why Nazis are considered so evil.

Even without a death factory, it's pretty clear the Nazis did kill many people not unlike any other country during war.

It turns out it's not even unique because the colonists did exactly the same thing to Native Americans and killed more. 100 million dead.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_history_of_American_indigenous_peoples


Off course this notion of an American Holocaust and targeted genocide is contested. Not a surprise as it would would lose the raison d'etre to demonize Nazis. Nazis are the most convenient scapegoats of history.

Germans never had a death factory. Maybe people should be reminded that the original neo-Nazi, racist, sick bastards are Germans and they bring up good points.

No gas chambers. No ovens. Not even close to 6 million.

kageki - using this would be a lot quicker for you:


By best guess at the moment is that it's the following:

"Your" ancestors killed millions of people which means that killing millions of people isn't unusual and since today you aren't consumed by guilt about what your ancestors did it means you don't really think genocide is that bad, so even though the Nazi's didn't kill millions of people, you hypocritically think the Nazi's are terrible and evil because they killed millions of people, which they didn't, but Jews smell.

[technoextreme]

Nazis didn't have a death factory. That is the crux of the Holocaust debate and the sole reason why Nazis are considered so evil.

Even without a death factory, it's pretty clear the Nazis did kill many people not unlike any other country during war.

It turns out it's not even unique because the colonists did exactly the same thing to Native Americans and killed more. 100 million dead.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Populat...genous_peoples
Actually, it's a stupid and idiotic comparison only someone who failed history would use. The problem being that some of the Indians died out of stupidity and not malice. The number you are citing does not make that distinction and if you bothered to read wikipedia it looks like it was pulled out of someones behind.

[kageki]

Originally Posted by Darat View Post
By best guess at the moment is that it's the following:

"Your" ancestors killed millions of people which means that killing millions of people isn't unusual and since today you aren't consumed by guilt about what your ancestors did it means you don't really think genocide is that bad, so even though the Nazi's didn't kill millions of people, you hypocritically think the Nazi's are terrible and evil because they killed millions of people, which they didn't, but Jews smell.

What? Nazis did kill millions. No one is denying that so there is no hypocrisy.

What is being specifically disputed is whether they had "industrialized" killing factories or that 6 million Jews really died. Were they really extermination camps or was it just labor camps?

I'm starting to think that was all made up. They were probably decent camps too.

[JEROME DA GNOME]

We do?

There was a number which emigrated to the US and Israel.

There was a number which died as civilian casualties like other Europeans.

There was a number that died fighting as soldiers in the war.

[Darat]

...snip..

I'm starting to think that was all made up. They were probably decent camps too.

You are now lying.

There is nothing in the evidence presented in this thread by other Members that casts any doubt on whether "it" happened therefore you are obviously lying and you had already decided that it "was all made up", or for whatever reason, you wish to deny "it" happened.

Why you have decided to promote lies and nonsense is of course only known to yourself however you have served a useful function in this thread in that anyone following it will have quickly understand how your bigoted and hate filled statements can easily be shown to be lies.

[JEROME DA GNOME]

What free speech issue - there isn't any!

I do not know. I did not bring it up. I was just told I did not know what I was talking about despite not bring up UK free speech issues.

[kageki]

Actually, it's a stupid and idiotic comparison only someone who failed history would use. The problem being that some of the Indians died out of stupidity and not malice. The number you are citing does not make that distinction and if you bothered to read wikipedia it looks like it was pulled out of someones behind.

Oh now they died out of stupidity? That's a pretty bold statement with nothing to back it up although a few historians seem to disagree with you. You care to tell some Native Americans that? Maybe not the 100 million, but 40 million at least.

Do I sniff denial in the worst degree? It's a perfect comparison to the Holocaust.

Bunch of white folks from Europe who massacred anyone not white as them. I fail to see how that is any different from Nazi racial ideology. Indeed the literature seems to indicate the Europeans were pursuing something like that.

So no Nazis were not unique in their pursuit in any way. No death factories either.

[Belz...]

What the European colonists did does not seem any different from what the Nazis did, but Nazis are evil and the colonists generally regarded as the great discoverers of the US.

Again, how is that relevant ? We're not talking about the colonists.

People naturally are hesitant accepting that around 40 million Native Americans were exterminated by the colonists. If it is ok to question those numbers then why is it illegal in some places to question the Holocaust numbers?

I don't really care. Start another thread if you want to.

Did I ever say the Nazis weren't these horrible, baby-eating monsters? I just want to know what is more accurate. 1 million or 6 million?

1 million dead in the Holocaust.

Evidence, please.

[Darat]

Whilst there may be some legitimate reasons to discuss other examples of large scale exterminations and/or genocides, this thread is about what the thread title says it is: "The Holocaust never happened!" ensure your discussions are directly relevant to the thread topic.

[Belz...]

How many of them were Jews? How did they exactly die? Are those numbers even accurate?

Maybe you all can start providing sources to prove your claim that 6 million Jews were systematically killed.

How is the testimony of people who were there, on both sides of the fence, not enough ?

[kageki]

You are now lying.

There is nothing in the evidence presented in this thread by other Members that casts any doubt on whether "it" happened therefore you are obviously lying and you had already decided that it "was all made up", or for whatever reason, you wish to deny "it" happened.

Why you have decided to promote lies and nonsense is of course only known to yourself however you have served a useful function in this thread in that anyone following it will have quickly understand how your bigoted and hate filled statements can easily be shown to be lies.

My decision is not final off course, but that is my inclination based on analysis.

What lie? That the Holocaust never happened?

http://www.adelaideinstitute.org/Auschwitz/truth.htm

The testimonies admit the Nazi doctors helped elders. Why would they have orchestras and swimming pools just to kill them? It's stated inmates had access to them.

[Belz...]

Why are you deliberately cherry-picking from the higher end of the range? How about 5.5 million dead?

If it's perfectly ok to use the higher estimate of 6 million then I don't see any reason why I can't say 5 million when I believe that is a more factual number.

Boo-hoo, tu quoque, man!! Tu quoque!

Are you people seriously that afraid to be labeled a neo-Nazi that you would go this far to appease the Holocaust survivors?

And there we have it. Next you'll claim we're all on the Jews' payroll.

Nazis didn't have a death factory.

Three gas chambers in ONE champ ? How do you call that ?

It turns out it's not even unique because the colonists did exactly the same thing to Native Americans and killed more. 100 million dead.

It's 100, now ?

Nazis are the most convenient scapegoats of history.

Yeah, I mean, give Hitler a break! He just wanted to be an artist!

No gas chambers. No ovens. Not even close to 6 million.

No gravity, no sun, no oxygen. It's all a conspiracy!

[Belz...]

It's a perfect comparison to the Holocaust.

When you're done with the logical fallacies, would you mind showing your evidence that the claimed 6 million death toll is inaccurate ?

[Darat]

My decision is not final off course, but that is my inclination based on analysis.

What lie? That the Holocaust never happened?

http://www.adelaideinstitute.org/Auschwitz/truth.htm

The testimonies admit the Nazi doctors helped elders. Why would they have orchestras and swimming pools just to kill them? It's stated inmates had access to them.


I clearly indicated which of your statements I was mentioning i.e:

"..I'm starting to think that was all made up... "

Many of your other statements and assertions in this thread are also lies in that they are factually incorrect and you are making them in an attempt to deceive people.

[kageki]

How is the testimony of people who were there, on both sides of the fence, not enough ?

Because they don't talk about exterminations. Only a few it seems talk specifically about gas chambers and ovens.

Don't tell me about burning pits either. Dead or alive. It is doubtful whether that is even possible as it's being hotly debated on the skeptics forum.

You have some testimonies that are faked. Some forced. Some biased like this French resistance member championed by Holocaust promoters. If you like to continue tossing out this general claim about testimonies then let's start breaking it down.

Where is the evidence? Are there any examinations being done today on the concentration camps?

[Pushkin]

Kageki,

I have loitered here long enough reading your indignant posts.
As far as I am aware no Germans took the "we were just delousing people" or "there were NO ovens and NO gas chambers" when brought to justice at nuremburg or since.

Instead (and I'm no historian) they mostly relied on the "I was just following orders" or "I knew nothing about that".


Do you not think that it makes you look silly that you, with the benefit of fifty years of hindsight and the accumulated works of historians, interest groups and academics are now trying to argue a case that the perpetrators themselves (and anyone else in the intervening period) has not?

It would help prop up your preposterous case if they did.

It is a testament to you and your argument that I have been a quiet watcher here (for a year or more) through realistice, Killtown and Max Photon and yet you get me to finally get off my backside, not that you wil get any of those references mind you I have a suspicion that you don't read much.

[Damien Evans]

It's a sad fact that until quite late on Hitler had the support of many influential British people, infamously the owner of the Daily Mail supported Hitler until Britain declared war with Germany.

In 1933 he published this editorial in his newspaper

And then, on another level entirely, was Lord Haw-Haw, he of the famous "Rats of Tobruk" line, among other even worse things

[SDC]

It's not even a same comparison. Iraq did nothing. You lose.

Darn those Poles and their weapons of mass destruction which got in the way of the glorious German advance!?

You know, K, you veer between "the Slavs had it worse than the Jews," to something like "the Poles taunted the poor Germans until the Wehrmacht just couldn't stand it any more." Please choose a position.

By the way, what is a "same comparison"? Someone on the list recently grumbled about the phrase, "same difference." Is that, uhm, the same? (And for you conspiracy theorists out there, please take note: the Polish parliament is the "Sejm," which is pronounced the same as same. Clearly they were taunting the innocent Wehrmacht by confusing them.)

K, have you seen the movie, "The Producers"? The original, I mean. Best of its kind. "Springtime for Hitler and Germany/ Winter for Poland and France..."

[drkitten]

Are you people seriously that afraid to be labeled a neo-Nazi that you would go this far to appease the Holocaust survivors? You well know what a "conservative estimate" is supposed to mean. There is always a "conservative" estimate and a higher estimate.

No, there isn't. If you're estimating the expenses of a project, for example, a "conservative" estimate would be the higher estimate (since you're trying to cover the worst-case scenario). If you're estimating how long until a project of yours will be completed, a "conservative" estimate will be the longer period of time, because that's the scenario you've got to be prepared to cover.



I don't think any scholar would point out something silly like that in my use of the word "conservative estimate".

I am a scholar -- I have pointed to something silly like that.

And you still haven't explained how 500,000+ people can be delivered by train to Belzec and vanish if it wasn't a "death factory."

[Matthew Best]

Welcome to the forum, Pushkin! Good first post.

[SDC]

Because they don't talk about exterminations. Only a few it seems talk specifically about gas chambers and ovens.

Don't tell me about burning pits either. Dead or alive. It is doubtful whether that is even possible as it's being hotly debated on the skeptics forum.

You have some testimonies that are faked. Some forced. Some biased like this French resistance member championed by Holocaust promoters. If you like to continue tossing out this general claim about testimonies then let's start breaking it down.

Where is the evidence? Are there any examinations being done today on the concentration camps?

You are headed for a trifecta of error here. I wish I were a betting man.

Well, with regard to survivors of operation Reinhard, which has been discussed, there were precious few from all 3 camps. I think the standard estimate is 100 out of 1.5-2 mln Jews deported to them.

Other camps had more survivors because they served multiple purposes, such as Auschwitz. And yes, there are plenty of references to the gas chambers, and even -- heavens! -- from non-Jews who were in the camps, but not subject to direct extermination. I always recall the collection of stories by a Polish writer, Tadeusz Borowski, who was imprisoned in Auschwitz and committed suicide a few years later; "This Way for the Gas, Ladies and Gentlemen," is how the title was translated.

Which "skeptics forum" is this being hotly debated on, thereby -- in your mind -- disproving it? From what I can see, it's really just you. Magz and Atrain have left, perhaps suspecting, from your references to your own ancestry, that you are not a true Aryan. (Hard luck!) Say, how do you feel about the Japanese diplomat in, I think, Wilno/ Vilnius who helped Jews escape the Germans by providing them with exit visas? Bet you don't like him.

There is a ton of testimony, documentary evidence, and anything else. You just don't care for it. The Holocaust is often referred to as one of the most studied, and best documented, events in history. And it's the case.

How do you feel about the Nazi camp archives and such now being opened to researchers? Visit Bad Arolsen; it's in a nice area, easily accessible. This article is just one recent, personalized story, of course, but heck, you can do your own research. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/16/AR2007091600616.html

[drkitten]

Oh now they died out of stupidity? That's a pretty bold statement with nothing to back it up although a few historians seem to disagree with you. You care to tell some Native Americans that? Maybe not the 100 million, but 40 million at least.

Most of the Amerindian deaths were indeed due to European stupidity and to bad luck; the deaths were due to diseases against which the natives had no natural immunity (primarily smallpox and measles). Ten years after Cortez' arrival, the Mexican native population had been cut by an estimated 75% (http://www.mountainsofstone.com/indian_smallpox.htm), due almost entirely to smallpox. The site of the future Massachusetts colony was nearly depopulated (99% loss or thereabouts) two years before the Mayflower even landed.

There is one documented case where the Indians were deliberately infected with smallpox (blankets from a smallpox hospital were delivered to a local tribe at the orders of Lord Amherst in 1763), but for the most part, the deaths were not only not deliberate, but they weren't even preventable. (Smallpox or measles was often a death sentence even among Europeans at the time; there was no effective treatment.) Most of the natives who died never even saw a European.

The comparison to the deliberately created Nazi factories of death with their industrialized gas chambers doesn't hold up well. The Mayflower immigrants, for example, didn't slaughter very many Indians. Even if they had wanted to, there were almost none left in the area.


Bunch of white folks from Europe who massacred anyone not white as them. I fail to see how that is any different from Nazi racial ideology.

See above. It's difficult to deliberately murder people who are already dead.

[Pak43]

What is being specifically disputed is whether they had "industrialized" killing factories or that 6 million Jews really died. Were they really extermination camps or was it just labor camps?

I'm afraid even Mr Irving was forced to admit that the extermination of the Jews was conducted in a systematic manner

A June 1942 SS report shows that they killed 97,000 Jews since December 1941 with 3 (yes 3) trucks

"Judge Gray asked Irving "Is it very limited and experimental?" , after some prevarication Irving answers...

"Not on this scale, this is systematic..."

I'm not sure what else you'd call a toll of 97,000 bodies processed in 6 months with just 3 trucks but "industrialised" is as good a fit as any I would suggest...

[SDC]

Those were the early days of gassing, though by the end of 1941 probably a couple of million had been killed in other ways. (Ask Nick Terry for details.) They were experimenting with trucks and carbon monoxide. Not efficient or effective enough.

[Belz...]

Because they don't talk about exterminations. Only a few it seems talk specifically about gas chambers and ovens.

The "final solution" seems pretty final, to me.

Don't tell me about burning pits either. Dead or alive. It is doubtful whether that is even possible as it's being hotly debated on the skeptics deniers forum.

There. Fixed that for you.

You have some testimonies that are faked. Some forced. Some biased like this French resistance member championed by Holocaust promoters.

Good, good. Since the Jews were targetted by the Germans, you can claim they are biased, as well, and ignore any and all testimony. Let me ask you this: how do you know that it isn't the testimonies YOU trust that are faked, forced or biased ?

If you like to continue tossing out this general claim about testimonies then let's start breaking it down.

Where is the evidence? Are there any examinations being done today on the concentration camps?

Err... it was done in the 40s. You know, things proven in the past don't need to be proven again just because someone refuses to believe it.

Which brings up another question: WHY do you think that the "official" story is false, to start with ?

[Pak43]

Where is the evidence? Are there any examinations being done today on the concentration camps?

Robert Jan van Pelt, The Case for Auschwitz (Bloomington, University of Indiana Press, 2002)

[Pak43]

Those were the early days of gassing, though by the end of 1941 probably a couple of million had been killed in other ways. (Ask Nick Terry for details.) They were experimenting with trucks and carbon monoxide. Not efficient or effective enough.

Actually my point was that even David Irving was forced to admit this was a "systematic" extermination, and therefore anything on a larger scale could not be considered as anything other than industrialised genocide even by a noted holocaust denier...

[Pushkin]

The BBC have just run a piece on the evening news about Irving. He turned up at the Oxford University Union (a kind of debating chamber) to make his case in a debate on the rights of free speech. On his side was Nick Griffin the BNP (British national Party - extreme anti immigration and according to some racist) politician.

The debating chamber has been surrounded by protesting students apalled these two should be given a platform for their views, they broke in and have stalled the whole evening. In a debate that was supposed to start at 2030 nothing has happened for the last two hours.

I'm in favour of letting them speak and hearing the nonsense that they will try to come out with.

[funk de fino]

There are more there than have ever been truthers at GZ. Shows you what happens when people really care about something.

Irving is pretty much a sideshow to Griffin as the BNP is a big thing at the moment. They are Nazis in suits who try to put a nice face on their racism.

[Grayce]

I'm in favour of letting them speak and hearing the nonsense that they will try to come out with.
Absolutely. By not letting them through in debates and always denying them participation in the media they'll just score "martyr points".
Holocaust-deniers will always be totally obliterated in an open debate concerning the holocaust. In fact, as I see it, that's one of the most effective ways to kill conspiracies and myths in general - invite them and smash them with facts in front of everyone.
Conclusion: insane theories survive much more easier when not put to the test.

In Sweden, our former prime minister Göran Persson (some of you guys might know of him) decided to give out some public information literature on the holocaust. So a booklet packed with pictures and facts was released in 1998. Roughly translated "Of this we most tell... (the future generations)". It was free and every Swedish citizen could get a copy if he wanted to. The project was ofcourse financed with tax money.
I think that was a great initiative from Persson, and I'm proud that he did that. For the sake of securing knowledge about the WW2 and the massmurders.

[dudalb]

In Between his posts in this thread,and his thread "proving" that Pearl Harbor was a LIHOP Inside Job, I think we can safely assume that Kasegi is a apologists and defender of the Far Right in Politics.

[Damien Evans]

How clever Elizabeth! It's amazing that this real fleet traveling from across the planet was never detected by the US radar system when even Australia warned the US about the Japanese fleet heading to Pearl Harbor? I guess the US never did anything to provoke Japan into attacking?


Wrong. We never did any such thing.

[Paulhoff]

How clever Elizabeth! It's amazing that this real fleet traveling from across the planet was never detected by the US radar system when even Australia warned the US about the Japanese fleet heading to Pearl Harbor? I guess the US never did anything to provoke Japan into attacking?

Which they did. Which also doesn't mean the Nazis gassed a ton of Jews in gas chambers alive.

I mentioned that to illustrate the total lack of empathy that exists in the world in discussing history. Clearly your statement seems to be exemplary of that. You're saying they deserved to suffer?

It must be a great feeling to know when the US does anything it's because they are "liberating" countries. I guess building military bases in foreign countries is for their "protection".
How little you seem to know, and from that, how much you can lie and hate, it is so nice not to be you.

Paul

:) :) :)

The KKK wants you.

[achtung circus]

Where is the evidence? Are there any examinations being done today on the concentration camps?

Well there is the Ground Penetrating Radar study done at Treblinka performed by Krege under the aegis of the Adelaide Institute. He alleges it shows no soil disturbance. Interesting place, Adelaide.

When is he going to publish it, anyway? It's only been 10 years.

[Gravy]

kageki, specifically what evidence would convince you that the Nazis systematically killed millions of Jews (not to mention all the other civilians they killed for various reasons)?

[Slayhamlet]

How little you seem to know, and from that, how much you can lie and hate, it is so nice not to be you.

Paul

:) :) :)

The KKK wants you.

I doubt the KKK wants him, at least as a member, since he's not of "Aryan" extraction. They'll love his ideas though, and if he were to ever author a crappy denial book they'd write a nice blurb for the jacket.

[Corsair 115]

How clever Elizabeth! It's amazing that this real fleet traveling from across the planet was never detected by the US radar system when even Australia warned the US about the Japanese fleet heading to Pearl Harbor? I guess the US never did anything to provoke Japan into attacking? Wrong. We never did any such thing. I asked him earlier to justify and explain the source for that statement. He never did respond.

[JEROME DA GNOME]

The BBC have just run a piece on the evening news about Irving. He turned up at the Oxford University Union (a kind of debating chamber) to make his case in a debate on the rights of free speech. On his side was Nick Griffin the BNP (British national Party - extreme anti immigration and according to some racist) politician.

The debating chamber has been surrounded by protesting students apalled these two should be given a platform for their views, they broke in and have stalled the whole evening. In a debate that was supposed to start at 2030 nothing has happened for the last two hours.

I'm in favour of letting them speak and hearing the nonsense that they will try to come out with.


Rather ironic.

I wonder if the students realize that when their views become unpopular they are establishing that they have no right to speech.

[JEROME DA GNOME]

Conclusion: insane theories survive much more easier when not put to the test.

Great point.

Exactly why I am against prosecution for unpopular speech.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

I keep wanting to reply to this thread, but I can't seem to write a post that doesn't end with me wishing auto-immune disorders on the nazi-apologists.

So I'll let these people say it for me. (http://tc.usc.edu/vhitc/(fu15lgm0lsfxthfmepp40gq4)/terms.aspx)

[kageki]

I asked him earlier to justify and explain the source for that statement. He never did respond.

Well the US embargoed oil shipments to Japan and was basically aiding China. From the perspective of Japan that is aiding the enemy. If Japan started aiding Iraq against the US, how would you take it? The ultimatum sent to Japan was a slap in the face.

The US was also engaging in covert warfare with Germany.

You people are not trying to be honest and trying to see all sides of the argument. I shouldn't have to provide "sources" about basic things like this in history. The British and the US were all around in Southeast Asia. Hong Kong? Opium Wars? You guys were messing around in that region first.

[uk_dave]

Well the US embargoed oil shipments to Japan and was basically aiding China. From the perspective of Japan that is aiding the enemy. If Japan started aiding Iraq against the US, how would you take it? The ultimatum sent to Japan was a slap in the face.


Ahhhhh the US was aiding a country which had been invaded by an aggressor.

Naughty US.

[kageki]

I'm afraid even Mr Irving was forced to admit that the extermination of the Jews was conducted in a systematic manner

A June 1942 SS report shows that they killed 97,000 Jews since December 1941 with 3 (yes 3) trucks

"Judge Gray asked Irving "Is it very limited and experimental?" , after some prevarication Irving answers...

"Not on this scale, this is systematic..."

I'm not sure what else you'd call a toll of 97,000 bodies processed in 6 months with just 3 trucks but "industrialised" is as good a fit as any I would suggest...

These trucks do seem real, but this is neither gas chambers at the camps or proof that Jews were burned alive in ovens.

No one is denying the Nazis had killed many people not exclusive to Jews. We are wondering if the concentration camps were really death factories or not which your post does not address.

This is a great article that I generally agree with:


The Holocaust Was Part of a Larger Genocide
http://www.savethemales.ca/001850.html

The Jewish Holocaust took place in the context of "Generalplan Ost" ("General Plan, East") the planned genocide of over 50 million Slavs, 75 % of the population of Nazi-occupied Poland, Ukraine and Russia. The Nazis intended to "Germanize" a few, and reduce the rest to agricultural serfs who would not even learn to read.

Why would the Nazis exempt the 5-6 million Jews in this region? The Jews were lower than Slavs on the "untermensch," (subhuman) scale. Holocaust minimizers are in denial about the true character of World War Two.

In my view, their real objection is to the political exploitation, i.e. the immunity from criticism and prestige the Jewish Holocaust gives Zionists. They would be wiser to address this issue directly rather than pretend the Jewish Holocaust didn't take place. They could neutralize its propaganda value another way: by drawing attention to the pattern of Nazi-elite Jewish collaboration (Judenrat, Jewish police, Zionist) and by talking about the Jewish role in Stalinist mass-murder.(See Below: "Stalin's Jews")


- Not exclusive to Jews. Final Solution seems to be about deportation.
- No extermination camps. They were labor camps.
- Mass killings did occur, but again no Nazi death factories.
- No gas chambers. No ovens. No burning pits.
- Not 6 million.

[kageki]

Ahhhhh the US was aiding a country which had been invaded by an aggressor.

Naughty US.

You're still missing the point. That is still aiding the enemy of Japan. Period.

Hey "UK" dave. What do you think about the illustrious history of the British empire? What do you think about the Opium Wars eh?

What would you think about people aiding Iraqis to fight off the US invaders?

[Matthew Best]

- Not exclusive to Jews. Final Solution seems to be about deportation.
- No extermination camps. They were labor camps.
- Mass killings did occur, but again no Nazi death factories.
- No gas chambers. No ovens. No burning pits.
- Not 6 million.

You seem to be labouring under the misapprehension that assertion is argument. :rolleyes:

[kageki]

You seem to be labouring under the misapprehension that assertion is argument. :rolleyes:

Then disprove them. I was just listing out the points of the "deniers" and I have not heard any decent arguments against those specific points.

For instance the question of burning pits of bodies. Is that even possible?


http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=9026

I understand that the Auschwitz-Birkenau complex was built on a swamp.
Even with drainage ditches, the water is still very close to the surface. This
condition would make it difficult to dig burning pits as described in the literature.
There seems to be a conflict between the earths natural forces and Holocaust sources.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

- Not exclusive to Jews.

That's about the only thing you got right.

Final Solution seems to be about deportation.

So 11 million people got run over by the busses?

- No extermination camps. They were labor camps.

Auschwitz

- Mass killings did occur, but again no Nazi death factories.

Auschwitz

- No gas chambers. No ovens. No burning pits.

Auschwitz

- Not 6 million.

True, that's just the total jewish casualties. The death toll among all victims was around 11 million.

[MG1962]

Then disprove them. I was just listing out the points of the "deniers" and I have not heard any decent arguments against those specific points.

For instance the question of burning pits of bodies. Is that even possible?

And in winter when the ground has frozen?

[uk_dave]

You're still missing the point. That is still aiding the enemy of Japan. Period.

Hey "UK" dave. What do you think about the illustrious history of the British empire? What do you think about the Opium Wars eh?

What would you think about people aiding Iraqis to fight off the US invaders?

What's your point?

You want to equate historical revisionism of the nazi atrocities with the accepted history of atrocities carried out by other nations in history?

I'm not in denial, you are.

Maybe we should turn your argument around. If we can accept the terrible things done in the past by ours and other countries, why can't you accept that terrible things were done by nazis?

No one other than you are making excuses for past atrocities. The difference is that you're trying to defend a political ideology by trying to find a parallel with a 'country'.

There is no british empire and no one here appears to be trying to promote the argument in favour of there being one now.

Similarily, there is no nazi movement (to speak of) but you do appear to be promoting the argument in favour of there being one now.

But nazis aren't very bright.

[gumboot]

- Not exclusive to Jews. Final Solution seems to be about deportation.
- No extermination camps. They were labor camps.
- Mass killings did occur, but again no Nazi death factories.
- No gas chambers. No ovens. No burning pits.
- Not 6 million.


So how come the Nazis distinguished between Vernichtungslager ("Extermination Camps") such as Auschwitz-Birkenau, Chełmno, Bełżec, Majdanek, Sobibór, and Treblinka, and Konzentrationslager ("Concentration Camps") such as Dachau, Sachsenhausen, Buchenwald, Flossenbürg, Mauthausen, and Ravensbrück?

Note that Auschwitz was an administration centre, Birkenau (Auschwitz II) was an Extermination Camp, and Monowitz (Auschwitz III) was a labour camp. Collectively they are referred to as Auschwitz-Birkenau.

-Gumboot

[Dave Rogers]

You're still missing the point. That is still aiding the enemy of Japan. Period.

So if the US hadn't imposed the embargo, would China have been justified in attacking the US?

Getting back on topic: One thing that shows up the fundamental dishonesty of holocaust deniers is this: the only alteration to the historical record they are prepared to countenance is a reduction of the number of deaths. An honest historian, attempting to approach the issue with no preconceptions and analyse the historical record anew, would be prepared to consider the possibility that the number killed might be greater than is conventionally believed. Kageki, have you seriously searched for evidence that the number might be more than six million?

Dave

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Kageki, have you seriously searched for evidence that the number might be more than six million?

Dave

Somehow, I don't think I would be suprised to learn that Kageki actually has spent a great deal of time searching for pictures and films of large numbers of jews being abused, terrorized and murdered. :p

[Dave Rogers]

You're still missing the point. That is still aiding the enemy of Japan. Period.

Hang on a minute, you nearly got away with that one. Sorry for replying twice to the same point, but this is a patently false claim. If you want to kill someone and I refuse to lend you my gun, I am not aiding your enemy, I am simply refusing to aid you. Japan had no basic right to buy oil from the USA, so by refusing to sell oil to Japan the USA was not infringing Japan's rights in any way, it was simply refusing to be complicit in a crime. This whole "Oil embargo is an act of war" argument is dishonest, distorted and morally indefensible. Not to mention idiotic.

Dave

[A W Smith]

- Not exclusive to Jews. Final Solution seems to be about deportation.
- No extermination camps. They were labor camps.
http://www.rockingham.k12.va.us/EMS/History_Pages/Holocaust/atrocopening13.gif
Not much labor going on here, Are they waiting for the deportation bus?



- Mass killings did occur, but again no Nazi death factories.
- No gas chambers. No ovens.

http://www.rockingham.k12.va.us/EMS/History_Pages/Holocaust/krema4auschwitz.gif

Sure looks like a death factory to me, Why such huge chimneys for such a small factory building? Whatever they "made' sure didn't take up much floor space but sure produced an awful lot of smoke. The rear of this building is where they had to "shower up" before starting production for the day

No burning pits.

http://www.rockingham.k12.va.us/EMS/History_Pages/Holocaust/pit.gif

Must have been the morning fog then, wake up. wake up Juden. Time to go to work.

- Not 6 million.

Well then where did they vanish to then? lemme guess. Miami?

To summaries. I don't even think hell has a place for such cretins as holocaust deniers. Even that is too good for them. Thankfully nature and the human species through selection discards such freaks and they are forced to live a life of ignorance. Ostracized by society, they hide in their caverns of blatent stupidity to die off with a whimper. Blaming their failure and shortcomings in life on those who are more adept to compete in society.

[kageki]

Auschwitz

True, that's just the total jewish casualties. The death toll among all victims was around 11 million.

Don't be a moron seriously. You just discredit yourself.


kageki, keep in mind your membership agreement requires you to be civil. Attack the argument, and not the person making the argument.


The exact number of 6 millions JEWS that died in the Holocaust is being debated. Not the actual total deaths in the Holocaust.


Auschwitz? This day camp?

http://www.adelaideinstitute.org/Auschwitz/truth.htm

You honestly think that one word answer is sufficient as an answer? Can we agree no Jews were burned alive in ovens?

[kageki]

And in winter when the ground has frozen?

Well it seems like even in the summer it would not be possible since it was a marsh.

So we can agree no burning pits of bodies ever happened and it was made up?

[kageki]

What's your point?

You want to equate historical revisionism of the nazi atrocities with the accepted history of atrocities carried out by other nations in history?

I'm not in denial, you are.

Maybe we should turn your argument around. If we can accept the terrible things done in the past by ours and other countries, why can't you accept that terrible things were done by nazis?

No one other than you are making excuses for past atrocities. The difference is that you're trying to defend a political ideology by trying to find a parallel with a 'country'.

There is no british empire and no one here appears to be trying to promote the argument in favour of there being one now.

Similarily, there is no nazi movement (to speak of) but you do appear to be promoting the argument in favour of there being one now.

But nazis aren't very bright.

Right we're not condoning what "we" did, but then you deny there even is a British empire? I think some of you need to learn history.

No denial that Nazis and for that matter the Japanese have done cruel things.

We are debating here specifically if Jews were burned alive in ovens. The denial and deflection in here is unbelievable.

No ovens.

[kageki]

http://www.rockingham.k12.va.us/EMS/History_Pages/Holocaust/atrocopening13.gif
Not much labor going on here, Are they waiting for the deportation bus?


Off course you promoters never get original. I was waiting to sink my teeth into this standard BS demagoging.

What does this prove? That they died? How? Disease? Shootings? They died of gassing? Well actually I doubt that because bodies that died of lethal gas is dangerous to be around.


http://www.rockingham.k12.va.us/EMS/History_Pages/Holocaust/krema4auschwitz.gif

Sure looks like a death factory to me, Why such huge chimneys for such a small factory building? Whatever they "made' sure didn't take up much floor space but sure produced an awful lot of smoke. The rear of this building is where they had to "shower up" before starting production for the day


Hey have you been to a regular factory before? There seems to be a row of death factories near my house. Did you know they made synthetic rubber goods at Auschwitz amongst other things? This proves nothing.



http://www.rockingham.k12.va.us/EMS/History_Pages/Holocaust/pit.gif


Must have been the morning fog then, wake up. wake up Juden. Time to go to work.


This is the only picture ever that exists supposedly showing burning pits. It looks fake to me.



Well then where did they vanish to then? lemme guess. Miami?

To summaries. I don't even think hell has a place for such cretins as holocaust deniers. Even that is too good for them. Thankfully nature and the human species through selection discards such freaks and they are forced to live a life of ignorance. Ostracized by society, they hide in their caverns of blatent stupidity to die off with a whimper. Blaming their failure and shortcomings in life on those who are more adept to compete in society.

Can you start linking to the sources of these numbers so we can examine it closer?

Hmm how can some Jews not be accounted for? Well how do you count someone who is Jewish? How is the census taken? What about Jews who change their last name or went into hiding? What about the many Jews who emigrated to other countries?

[funk de fino]

Right we're not condoning what "we" did, but then you deny there even is a British empire? I think some of you need to learn history.

No denial that Nazis and for that matter the Japanese have done cruel things.

We are debating here specifically if Jews were burned alive in ovens. The denial and deflection in here is unbelievable.

No ovens.

I think you need to learn past tense and present tense

And now you are just lying. It is quite disgraceful to be honest. We are not debating whether they were burned alive in ovens we are debating whether the Nazis systematically murdered Jews just because they were Jews.

yes, they did, millions of them

[kageki]

Hang on a minute, you nearly got away with that one. Sorry for replying twice to the same point, but this is a patently false claim. If you want to kill someone and I refuse to lend you my gun, I am not aiding your enemy, I am simply refusing to aid you. Japan had no basic right to buy oil from the USA, so by refusing to sell oil to Japan the USA was not infringing Japan's rights in any way, it was simply refusing to be complicit in a crime. This whole "Oil embargo is an act of war" argument is dishonest, distorted and morally indefensible. Not to mention idiotic.

Dave

Dave, let's discuss this in my Pearl Harbor thread. Not here anymore.

[kageki]

I think you need to learn past tense and present tense

And now you are just lying. It is quite disgraceful to be honest. We are not debating whether they were burned alive in ovens we are debating whether the Nazis systematically murdered Jews just because they were Jews.

yes, they did, millions of them

That is one of the points about the Holocaust so stop trying to ignore it. Do we all not still believe the Nazis burned Jews alive in Auschwitz? No death factory.

No it does not appear it was just the Jews, but your statement is still partially true.

Not sure exactly how many million of Jews. 5 million.

[Gravy]

Second time, kageki: please respond. Thank you.

Specifically what evidence would convince you that the Nazis systematically killed millions of Jews (not to mention all the other civilians they killed for various reasons)?

[Firestone]

The exact number of 6 millions JEWS that died in the Holocaust is being debated. Not the actual total deaths in the Holocaust.Strawman, as you should know by now.

Auschwitz? This day camp?You have a very bizarre idea of what a day camp is. A million people were killed at Auschwitz-Birkenau. Not what I would consider normal for a day camp.

I wonder how Japanese people would react if someone would refer to the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki in the same disgraceful way you refer to the murder by the nazi's of millions of innocent people.

Racism is disgusting and demeaning, whatever color it takes.

[kageki]

Second time, kageki: please respond. Thank you.

Specifically what evidence would convince you that the Nazis systematically killed millions of Jews (not to mention all the other civilians they killed for various reasons)?

Here's a simple question since it's apparently difficult for you.

Did Nazis burn Jews alive in ovens?

[kageki]

Strawman, as you should know by now.

You have a very bizarre idea of what a day camp is. A million people were killed at Auschwitz-Birkenau. Not what I would consider normal for a day camp.

I wonder how Japanese people would react if someone would refer to the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki in the same disgraceful way you refer to the murder by the nazi's of millions of innocent people.

Racism is disgusting and demeaning, whatever color it takes.

It's not a strawman and you know it. The specific question is whether 6 millions Jews really died in the Holocaust. Ok?

I don't know about you if it turns out the gassing and the ovens were made up I would be a little pissed.

[Pushkin]

Kageki,

I posted a similar question in post 1180 which I will now rephrase and repost to save you the trouble of scrolling back.

Does it strike you as odd that none of the Nazis when brought to account for their actions at Nuremberg or since argued the same case that you now are?

AFAIK there was no-one in the witness box screaming "its all embellished! There was no-one put into a gas chamber! The Final Solution was mainly about transport to the Happy Green Fields in the East!". Faced with a mountain of documentary and witness evidence they all went for the "we were just following orders" or "I knew nothing about that".

Can you explain why?

Thanks.

[CHF]

Good point, Pushkin.

The Nazis never used "it didn't happen" as a defence.

I certainly would have objected to being falsely accused of mass murder.

Wouldn't you, kageki?

[Firestone]

It's not a strawman and you know it. The specific question is whether 6 millions Jews really died in the Holocaust. Ok? Of course your fixation on the 6 million Jews is a strawman.

This is what the website of Yad Vashem (http://www1.yadvashem.org/Odot/prog/index_before_change_table.asp?gate=5-3) has to say about the number of Jews murdered in the Holocaust:

There is no precise figure for the number of Jews killed in the Holocaust. The figure commonly used is the six million quoted by Adolf Eichmann, a senior SS official. Most research confirms that the number of victims was between five and six million. Early calculations range from 5.1 million (Professor Raul Hilberg) to 5.95 million (Jacob Leschinsky). More recent research, by Professor Yisrael Gutman and Dr. Robert Rozett in the Encyclopedia of the Holocaust, estimates the Jewish losses at 5.59–5.86 million, and a study headed by Dr. Wolfgang Benz presents a range from 5.29 million to six million.(bolding mine).

So, if you have any evidence that will help get a better estimate, feel free to provide it.

I don't know about you if it turns out the gassing and the ovens were made up I would be a little pissed.Like many Jews I have personnaly heard the testimony of family members WHO WERE THERE. (And they didn't consider it to be day camps.)
Both the gassing and the ovens are well-documented.
I do get a "little pissed" by people who are so blinded by prejudice that they systematically ignore all the evidence that contradicts their pet theories.

But, since this is the CT-subforum, I have only myself to blame for being confronted with this disgraceful nonsense.

[Dave Rogers]

Right we're not condoning what "we" did, but then you deny there even is a British empire?

It depends on your definition of the word "is".

Dave

[Dave Rogers]

Not sure exactly how many million of Jews. 5 million.

Oh well, that makes all the difference in the world. 6 million would have been serious, but 5 million only merits a slap on the wrist. And of course, the industrialisation of genocide that would have been required to kill 6 million would be totally unnecessary to kill only 5 million.

Some day, Kageki, you may grow up, and develop the capacity for embarrassment at what you've been saying here. I don't envy you, because it's all archived here to be looked back over, and you're going to have to live with it. The longer it takes, the worse it'll feel.

Dave

[kageki]

Kageki,

I posted a similar question in post 1180 which I will now rephrase and repost to save you the trouble of scrolling back.

Does it strike you as odd that none of the Nazis when brought to account for their actions at Nuremberg or since argued the same case that you now are?

AFAIK there was no-one in the witness box screaming "its all embellished! There was no-one put into a gas chamber! The Final Solution was mainly about transport to the Happy Green Fields in the East!". Faced with a mountain of documentary and witness evidence they all went for the "we were just following orders" or "I knew nothing about that".

Can you explain why?

Thanks.

Because it doesn't answer the question whether Jews were really burned alive in ovens or not. Besides many were probably tortured by the Allied.

[kageki]

Oh well, that makes all the difference in the world. 6 million would have been serious, but 5 million only merits a slap on the wrist. And of course, the industrialisation of genocide that would have been required to kill 6 million would be totally unnecessary to kill only 5 million.

Some day, Kageki, you may grow up, and develop the capacity for embarrassment at what you've been saying here. I don't envy you, because it's all archived here to be looked back over, and you're going to have to live with it. The longer it takes, the worse it'll feel.

Dave

Get a new line. I'm done with the demagoging and the industrialisation is exactly what's being disputed.

Historians mull over numbers. It's nothing new and it's done for the sake of accuracy and you know it.

5 million.

[kageki]

Good point, Pushkin.

The Nazis never used "it didn't happen" as a defence.

I certainly would have objected to being falsely accused of mass murder.

Wouldn't you, kageki?

Does that prove Jews were being burned alive in ovens?

The answer is yes or no. It's quite simple.

[kageki]

Of course your fixation on the 6 million Jews is a strawman.

This is what the website of Yad Vashem (http://www1.yadvashem.org/Odot/prog/index_before_change_table.asp?gate=5-3) has to say about the number of Jews murdered in the Holocaust:

(bolding mine).

So, if you have any evidence that will help get a better estimate, feel free to provide it.

Like many Jews I have personnaly heard the testimony of family members WHO WERE THERE. (And they didn't consider it to be day camps.)
Both the gassing and the ovens are well-documented.
I do get a "little pissed" by people who are so blinded by prejudice that they systematically ignore all the evidence that contradicts their pet theories.

But, since this is the CT-subforum, I have only myself to blame for being confronted with this disgraceful nonsense.

Show me the evidence that Jews were burned alive in ovens.

The fixation on 6 million is from the Jews who take it out of the story from the Talmud.

[Firestone]

Show me the evidence that Jews were burned alive in ovens. One more strawman. Why should I provide evidence for something I haven't claimed? :confused:

The fixation on 6 million is from the Jews who take it out of the story from the Talmud.Now, that's a claim you make! Care to provide evidence?

(ETA: of course, the link to the Yad Vashem website I gave above proves you wrong.)

[funk de fino]

Show me the evidence that Jews were burned alive in ovens.

The fixation on 6 million is from the Jews who take it out of the story from the Talmud.


This guy says that jews were gassed and babies were murdered. Are you calling him a liar?

http://www.theage.com.au/news/World/Auschwitz-guards-life-of-lingering-nightmares/2005/01/26/1106415663534.html

[Gravy]

Third time, kageki. Please answer so that we can direct you to the information you need. Thank you.

Specifically what evidence would convince you that the Nazis systematically killed millions of Jews (not to mention all the other civilians they killed for various reasons)?

[kageki]

This guy says that jews were gassed and babies were murdered. Are you calling him a liar?

http://www.theage.com.au/news/World/Auschwitz-guards-life-of-lingering-nightmares/2005/01/26/1106415663534.html

Yes... after 60 years. What took him so long?

[kageki]

Third time, kageki. Please answer so that we can direct you to the information you need. Thank you.

Specifically what evidence would convince you that the Nazis systematically killed millions of Jews (not to mention all the other civilians they killed for various reasons)?

Well how about anything Gravy? But that's not what I asked you.

Please answer this specific question because that is what I am specifically asking at this moment.

Did Nazis burn Jews alive in ovens?

[Gravy]

Well how about anything Gravy? But that's not what I asked you.

Please answer this specific question because that is what I am specifically asking at this moment.

Did Nazis burn Jews alive in ovens?No idea. I never claimed they did.

I'm beginning to be concerned that no evidence will convince you that the Nazis systematically killed millions of Jews. Is that the case? If it is, please say so and I'll discontinue my efforts here.

If there is evidence that will convince you that the Nazis systematically killed millions of Jews, please state what it is. You will save us all a lot of time chasing after your ever-moving goalposts and trying to redirect you from your strawman arguments.

So specifically what, if anything, will convince you? This is the fourth time I'm asking. Thank you.

[SDC]

Well it seems like even in the summer it would not be possible since it was a marsh.

So we can agree no burning pits of bodies ever happened and it was made up?

No. You're wrong.

What about the mass shootings? Approx 2 mln Jews killed.

[SDC]

It's not a strawman and you know it. The specific question is whether 6 millions Jews really died in the Holocaust. Ok?

I don't know about you if it turns out the gassing and the ovens were made up I would be a little pissed.

You are still wrong. Best ests are 6 mln. Hilberg (I think) preferred a little over 5 mln.

Most by gassing, some by shooting, others by starvation, disease and being worked to death while in German imprisonment.

Your arguments are wretched. Give up, Pumpkin.

[drkitten]

We are debating here specifically if Jews were burned alive in ovens.

No, that's exactly what we are not debating.

The Jews were not burned alive in ovens.

They were gassed first, and then burned in ovens.


No ovens.

No, the ovens themselves are quite real. We have construction documents, statements from workers, eyewitness reports, and physical evidence.

But you are right in one regard. The Jews were dead before they were put in the ovens.

[kageki]

One more strawman. Why should I provide evidence for something I haven't claimed? :confused:

Now, that's a claim you make! Care to provide evidence?

(ETA: of course, the link to the Yad Vashem website I gave above proves you wrong.)

Well you didn't claim it off course. Man you people are just ridiculous. Isn't this what we are told what happened in the Holocaust? That Nazis burned Jews alive in ovens?


http://www.globalfire.tv/nj/04en/jews/6millionlie.htm

For the permission to return to the Promised Land, God allegedly demanded from them a "6-Million-Holocaust-Offering", so the high priests interpreted a Torah prophecy that reads: "You shall return" (due to a spelling mistake the priests interpret it this way "You shall return, minus 6 million")

This self-imposed prophesy – without fulfilment of this prophesy the return to the Promised Land would not be permitted – led to the 1919 "six-million-prophecy-crash". Based on the Balfour-Declaration of 1917 the state of Israel was guaranteed, and the Diaspora-Jews would return to the "Promised Land". The leading Jews at that time expected 1920 a migration of their brethren into "their Land". But, before the return could take place, "6 million" of them had to disappear, according to the wrongly interpreted prophecy.

In fact, Jewish organisations proclaimed already in 1919 a "6 million-holocaust", taking place in the Ukraine: "Six million men and women are dying; eight-hundred-thousand children cry for bread. And this fate is upon them through no fault of their own, through no transgression of the law of God or man; but through the awful tyranny of war and a bigoted lust for Jewish blood. In this threatened holocaust of human life ..." [The American Hebrew, Oct. 31, 1919, Nbr. 582]

[Dave Rogers]

Get a new line. I'm done with the demagoging and the industrialisation is exactly what's being disputed.

Historians mull over numbers. It's nothing new and it's done for the sake of accuracy and you know it.

5 million.

The industrialisation was required by the scale of the killing. 5 million would still require killing on an industrial scale. As for historians mulling over numbers, genuine historians are prepared to revise the numbers either way for the sake of accuracy. Holocaust deniers like you are only interested in revising them one way for the sake of making the Nazis look morally defensible. It's dishonest and morally repugnant.

Dave

[kageki]

No idea. I never claimed they did.

I'm beginning to be concerned that no evidence will convince you that the Nazis systematically killed millions of Jews. Is that the case? If it is, please say so and I'll discontinue my efforts here.

If there is evidence that will convince you that the Nazis systematically killed millions of Jews, please state what it is. You will save us all a lot of time chasing after your ever-moving goalposts and trying to redirect you from your strawman arguments.

So specifically what, if anything, will convince you? This is the fourth time I'm asking. Thank you.

Well why don't you start linking stuff Gravy instead of asking me what would convince me?

Why are YOU so fixated about the Jews? Clearly Nazis had a much bigger plan then just Jews.

LOL. I never made the claim so.. what? It's a simple question which requires that you don't need to make any claims. You people should be lawyers.

Ovens. Debunked.