[Moderated]The Holocaust never happened!

[kageki]

No. You're wrong.

What about the mass shootings? Approx 2 mln Jews killed.

LOL. What does shootings have to do with whether burnings pits are possible?

[Dave Rogers]

Well you didn't claim it off course. Man you people are just ridiculous. Isn't this what we are told what happened in the Holocaust? That Nazis burned Jews alive in ovens?

No, it isn't. We're told that the Nazis initially persecuted the Jews through restrictive laws and semi-official racist attacks, then rounded them up and forced them into closed-off ghettoes, then started cutting off their food supplies leading them to trade all their possessions for food, then seized any possessions they still had and forced them to work as slave labour, used them in medical experiments, gassed them with truck exhaust gases, shot them, hung them, bayonnetted them, gassed them with Zyklon B and burned the dead bodies, and that they overran most of Western Europe and sought out as many Jews from other countries as they could lay their hands on so they could kill them as well. Does the fact that they didn't necessarily burn them alive somehow make any of that OK?

Dave

[kageki]

No, that's exactly what we are not debating.

The Jews were not burned alive in ovens.

They were gassed first, and then burned in ovens.



No, the ovens themselves are quite real. We have construction documents, statements from workers, eyewitness reports, and physical evidence.

But you are right in one regard. The Jews were dead before they were put in the ovens.

Good. I'm glad we have established that no Jews were burned alive in ovens and that the ovens are nothing more then for cremation of DEAD bodies.

No mass gassings.

No Jews were burned alive in ovens.

[Gravy]

Well why don't you start linking stuff Gravy instead of asking me what would convince me? If you'll recall, kageki, I gave you links to a great deal of information, including Nizkor's answers to the IHR's 66 questions about the Holocaust. I asked you what, if anything, you disputed, and asked you to back your claims with evidence. You didn't do that.

We all have limited time, kageki. This subject is vast. I'm sure you realize that. You could spend the rest of your life bringing up anomalies you perceive in the historical record and demanding that they be debunked – work that has no doubt been done by others, but that you aren't interested in finding on your own.

Can we agree that the main issue here is whether the Nazis systematically killed millions of Jews (and others)? If so, then we've got a starting point.

Let's take this one step at a time. kageki, is there any evidence that would convince you that the Nazis systematically killed millions of Jews?

Yes or no?

[Firestone]

The fixation on 6 million is from the Jews who take it out of the story from the Talmud.Now, that's a claim you make! Care to provide evidence?

(ETA: of course, the link to the Yad Vashem website I gave above proves you wrong.)

Well you didn't claim it off course. Man you people are just ridiculous. Isn't this what we are told what happened in the Holocaust? That Nazis burned Jews alive in ovens?


http://www.globalfire.tv/nj/04en/jews/6millionlie.htm

For the permission to return to the Promised Land, God allegedly demanded from them a "6-Million-Holocaust-Offering", so the high priests interpreted a Torah prophecy that reads: "You shall return" (due to a spelling mistake the priests interpret it this way "You shall return, minus 6 million")

This self-imposed prophesy – without fulfilment of this prophesy the return to the Promised Land would not be permitted – led to the 1919 "six-million-prophecy-crash". Based on the Balfour-Declaration of 1917 the state of Israel was guaranteed, and the Diaspora-Jews would return to the "Promised Land". The leading Jews at that time expected 1920 a migration of their brethren into "their Land". But, before the return could take place, "6 million" of them had to disappear, according to the wrongly interpreted prophecy.

In fact, Jewish organisations proclaimed already in 1919 a "6 million-holocaust", taking place in the Ukraine: "Six million men and women are dying; eight-hundred-thousand children cry for bread. And this fate is upon them through no fault of their own, through no transgression of the law of God or man; but through the awful tyranny of war and a bigoted lust for Jewish blood. In this threatened holocaust of human life ..." [The American Hebrew, Oct. 31, 1919, Nbr. 582]Priceless!
Do you even understand the concept evidence? :confused:

You claimed: "The fixation on 6 million is from the Jews who take it out of the story from the Talmud."

And your "evidence" is some antisemitic website repeating the same claim, but without evidence for said claim.

So do you have evidence for your claim (like the story in the talmud you are refering to), or do you mindlessly repeat nonsense you find on conspiracy-site?

If you don't have evidence, please retract your claim.

[kageki]

The industrialisation was required by the scale of the killing. 5 million would still require killing on an industrial scale. As for historians mulling over numbers, genuine historians are prepared to revise the numbers either way for the sake of accuracy. Holocaust deniers like you are only interested in revising them one way for the sake of making the Nazis look morally defensible. It's dishonest and morally repugnant.

Dave

The number is being debated.

When you say "industrialization" you do mean about extermination camps? Which means they had burned people alive in ovens and gassed people in gas chambers.

They did not exist. The trucks however may seem possible, but the feasibility of it is also disputed.

No "industrialization" more then how anyone would kill people in wars.

[kageki]

Priceless!
Do you even understand the concept evidence? :confused:

You claimed: "The fixation on 6 million is from the Jews who take it out of the story from the Talmud."

And your "evidence" is some antisemitic website repeating the same claim, but without evidence for said claim.

So do you have evidence for your claim (like the story in the talmud you are refering to), or do you mindlessly repeat nonsense you find on conspiracy-site?

If you don't have evidence, please retract your claim.

The story from the Talmud is not evidence?

[Pushkin]

Kageki,

Do you now concede that the Germans did gas Jews?

Because you seem to be hiding in a corner screaming "they didnt burn people in ovens!"

Which is fine, (entirely up to you how you behave) but it makes you look silly. That's all

[kageki]

If you'll recall, kageki, I gave you links to a great deal of information, including Nizkor's answers to the IHR's 66 questions about the Holocaust. I asked you what, if anything, you disputed, and asked you to back your claims with evidence. You didn't do that.

We all have limited time, kageki. This subject is vast. I'm sure you realize that. You could spend the rest of your life bringing up anomalies you perceive in the historical record and demanding that they be debunked – work that has no doubt been done by others, but that you aren't interested in finding on your own.

Can we agree that the main issue here is whether the Nazis systematically killed millions of Jews (and others)? If so, then we've got a starting point.

Let's take this one step at a time. kageki, is there any evidence that would convince you that the Nazis systematically killed millions of Jews?

Yes or no?

Yes if they exist. I don't even see the point of your question.

Happy?

[funk de fino]

Yes... after 60 years. What took him so long?

did you read it. it tells you he spoke earlier about it but not until now did he feel the need to speak out again

he did it now because of people like you who are ignorant and uninformed and spread lies about the holocaust

are you calling this man a liar?

[funk de fino]

The story from the Talmud is not evidence?

No

[kageki]

Kageki,

Do you now concede that the Germans did gas Jews?

Because you seem to be hiding in a corner screaming "they didnt burn people in ovens!"

Which is fine, (entirely up to you how you behave) but it makes you look silly. That's all

Well let's see it. You people never seem to cough up anything to back up your claims.

Mass gassings don't even seem possible. Testimonies are not solid evidence.

Well we are told that Nazis were burning people alive in ovens. I want to know if that was made up.

[Firestone]

The story from the Talmud is not evidence?What story?
Where in the talmud is that story found?

Remember your claim: "The fixation on 6 million is from the Jews who take it out of the story from the Talmud."

Why can't you tell us what this story from the talmud is and where in the talmud the story is written.

Provide you evidence or retract your claim.

[kageki]

did you read it. it tells you he spoke earlier about it but not until now did he feel the need to speak out again

he did it now because of people like you who are ignorant and uninformed and spread lies about the holocaust

are you calling this man a liar?

yes.

[Dave Rogers]

When you say "industrialization" you do mean about extermination camps? Which means they had burned people alive in ovens and gassed people in gas chambers.

They did not exist. The trucks however may seem possible, but the feasibility of it is also disputed.

You're feverishly constructing strawmen here. There is overwhelming documentary, testimonial and physical evidence that the gas chambers existed and were used for mass killings. There is overwhelming documentary, testimonal and physical evidence that the ovens existed and wer used for cremating the victims of the gas chambers. These things are only disputed by those who agree or sympathise with the Nazi policy of Jewish extermination, and those disputes are characterised by avoidance or distortion of the evidence rather than honest reappraisal. Your behaviour in this thread has been entirely consistent with this approach.

Dave

[kageki]

What story?
Where in the talmud is that story found?

Remember your claim: "The fixation on 6 million is from the Jews who take it out of the story from the Talmud."

Why can't you tell us what this story from the talmud is and where in the talmud the story is written.

Provide you evidence or retract your claim.

I did read the article.

[funk de fino]

Well let's see it. You people never seem to cough up anything to back up your claims.

Mass gassings don't even seem possible. Testimonies are not solid evidence.

Well we are told that Nazis were burning people alive in ovens. I want to know if that was made up.

stop moving the goal posts, i posted a link to a soldier who saw the gassings

who is claimimg that they were being burned alive en mass in ovens?

they were gassed then burnt, oskar the german soldier proves it, as does the existence of the chambers and ovens

[Gravy]

Yes if they exist. I don't even see the point of your question.

Happy?No, you are unclear. Yes if what exists? Evidence?

The point of my question is to get us all to focus on what's important to you, so that we can direct you to the information you need, and not chase after secondary and tertiary issues.

So let's take the next step. If you are saying that you could be convinced that the Nazis systematically killed millions of Jews, specifically what evidence would convince you?

This is the sixth time I'm asking. I'd appreciate it if you'd think about this and reply sincerely. Let's focus on what's most important. I'm sure you don't want to play games and waste our time. If you're not ready to answer, that's fine: take as many days as you need.

Is that a reasonable request, kageki?

[kageki]

You're feverishly constructing strawmen here. There is overwhelming documentary, testimonial and physical evidence that the gas chambers existed and were used for mass killings. There is overwhelming documentary, testimonal and physical evidence that the ovens existed and wer used for cremating the victims of the gas chambers. These things are only disputed by those who agree or sympathise with the Nazi policy of Jewish extermination, and those disputes are characterised by avoidance or distortion of the evidence rather than honest reappraisal. Your behaviour in this thread has been entirely consistent with this approach.

Dave

You keep repeating that it exists doesn't make it true.

What documents?

Unreliable testimonies?

What physical evidence?


Can you provide the evidence for your claims?

[kageki]

No, you are unclear. Yes if what exists? Evidence?

The point of my question is to get us all to focus on what's important to you, so that we can direct you to the information you need, and not chase after secondary and tertiary issues.

So let's take the next step. If you are saying that you could be convinced that the Nazis systematically killed millions of Jews, specifically what evidence would convince you?

This is the sixth time I'm asking. I'd appreciate it if you'd think about this and reply sincerely. Let's focus on what's most important. I'm sure you don't want to play games and waste our time. If you're not ready to answer, that's fine: take as many days as you need.

Is that a reasonable request, kageki?

Well this is the sixth time I've asked you to provide the evidence of your claims.

[Firestone]

I did read the article.The article provides no evidence whatsoever for your claim: "The fixation on 6 million is from the Jews who take it out of the story from the Talmud."

So no evidence.
Why am I not surprised?

I rest my case.

[Paulhoff]

kageki you are one sick puppy.

Paul

:) :) :)

[kageki]

stop moving the goal posts, i posted a link to a soldier who saw the gassings

who is claimimg that they were being burned alive en mass in ovens?

they were gassed then burnt, oskar the german soldier proves it, as does the existence of the chambers and ovens

Well isn't that what you are taught in your education about the Holocaust? That Jews were being burned alive in ovens? That's what I was told at least.

Glad I can scratch that off my list that the Nazis never burned any Jews alive.

Who's this oskar? Why can't you people start linking?

The existence of chambers and ovens don't prove what is claimed they were used for. Well we do know that ovens were used for cremations, but we knew that already.

[funk de fino]

yes.

This really says it all.

All the germans who say it happened, all the jews who say it happened, all the other nationalities who say it happened are lying?

the ovens and gas chambers do not exist and all photos are fakes?

you are a despicable human being and it embarasses me that i share the planet with such a ignorant person

[drkitten]

When you say "industrialization" you do mean about extermination camps?

Among other things.

Which means they had burned people alive in ovens

It's possible to have extermination camps without "burning people alive in ovens. There are more ways to kill people than by burning them.


Such as if one
gassed people in gas chambers.

Which they did. They then burned the bodies in crematoria, enough bodies to make a twenty-foot thick layer of human ash at Treblinka (IIRC).

The nature of that layer of ash is easily identifiable upon chemical analysis. How many bodies does it take to get that much ash? How do you get that many bodies short of deliberate extermination?


They did not exist.

Oh? What's your explanation for the 500,000 people who arrived at Belzec and never left?

You keep simply asserting that the extermination camps never existed. But merely stating someting over and over again doesn't make it true, rational, or even believable. If you really think that Belzec was something other than an extermination camp, then you should be able to explain what happened to all the people who (you believe) weren't exterminated there.



The trucks however may seem possible, but the feasibility of it is also disputed.

Not by anyone in command of the facts. Even Irving was forced to admit not only that it was feasible, but that it actually happened.



No "industrialization" more then how anyone would kill people in wars.

Killing nearly 100,000 civilians by gassing in trucks is hardly "how anyone would kill people in wars."

[Gravy]

Well this is the sixth time I've asked you to provide the evidence of your claims.kageki, as I said, this subject is vast. You've already chosen not to respond to the links I've given you, which contain a vast amount of information to help people like you answer specific questions. Remember, that was your choice.

So let's focus on what you need to know to be convinced that Nazis systematically killed millions of Jews, okay?

As I said, if you can't think of any evidence that would convince you, then you should take as much time as you need to think about that. It's very important. If you decide that nothing would convince you, then you have an unfalsifiable belief and we cannot help you.

If you're ready to take the next step, let's proceed right now.

kageki, specifically what evidence would convince you that the Nazis systematically killed millions of Jews? Please do the respectful thing and give that a serious reply, so we can get right to directing you to that information.

Thank you.

[funk de fino]

Well isn't that what you are taught in your education about the Holocaust? That Jews were being burned alive in ovens? That's what I was told at least.

no, i was taught they were gassed then burnt. i guess you were alseep at this point


Glad I can scratch that off my list that the Nazis never burned any Jews alive.

irrelevant and, in fact, maybe at sometime they did, but no-one is fixated on this or claiming this

Who's this oskar? Why can't you people start linking?

the soldier who you are calling a liar, i linked already and you ignored what he said then called him a liar

The existence of chambers and ovens don't prove what is claimed they were used for. Well we do know that ovens were used for cremations, but we knew that already.

they do if we have testimonies that say what they were used for

[drkitten]

Well we do know that ovens were used for cremations, but we knew that already.

Good, good.... you're getting there. Now, how many cremations were the Treblinka ovens used for?

This is important, because every cremation implies a body, and every body implies a death. The crematoria at Belzec had enough capacity to burn the entire camp's population every month or so. Why would one need that much capacity?

[kageki]

This really says it all.

All the germans who say it happened, all the jews who say it happened, all the other nationalities who say it happened are lying?

the ovens and gas chambers do not exist and all photos are fakes?

you are a despicable human being and it embarasses me that i share the planet with such a ignorant person

Germans were tortured for their confessions. Not all the Jews say it happened. Some of them even admitted to lying.

The ovens and chambers do exist. Again they do not prove what is claimed that happened.

[kageki]

Good, good.... you're getting there. Now, how many cremations were the Treblinka ovens used for?

This is important, because every cremation implies a body, and every body implies a death. The crematoria at Belzec had enough capacity to burn the entire camp's population every month or so. Why would one need that much capacity?

I don't know how many did get cremated?

If you don't crush the bones they remain after cremation. So we are lead to believe they all turned to ash so we can just come up with any number we please?

[kageki]

kageki, as I said, this subject is vast. You've already chosen not to respond to the links I've given you, which contain a vast amount of information to help people like you answer specific questions. Remember, that was your choice.

So let's focus on what you need to know to be convinced that Nazis systematically killed millions of Jews, okay?

As I said, if you can't think of any evidence that would convince you, then you should take as much time as you need to think about that. It's very important. If you decide that nothing would convince you, then you have an unfalsifiable belief and we cannot help you.

If you're ready to take the next step, let's proceed right now.

kageki, specifically what evidence would convince you that the Nazis systematically killed millions of Jews? Please do the respectful thing and give that a serious reply, so we can get right to directing you to that information.

Thank you.

Well what is the specific evidence to prove it?

Are we talking about the Final Solution?

[drkitten]

So we are lead to believe they all turned to ash so we can just come up with any number we please?

No, we do know approximately how much ash corresponds to a human body (Think about how big a cremation urn is.) A pile of ashes ten times that size represents about ten bodies. A pile of ashes a thousand times that size would be about a thousand bodies. This is routine mathematics.

[Drudgewire]

Mengele most certainly was concerned with the wellbeing of the Jews. He was after all a doctor.
ANGEL OF DEATH!!
Monarch to the kingdom of the dead!

http://www.lethalwrestling.com/upload/rock.gif

[kageki]

No, we do know approximately how much ash corresponds to a human body (Think about how big a cremation urn is.) A pile of ashes ten times that size represents about ten bodies. A pile of ashes a thousand times that size would be about a thousand bodies. This is routine mathematics.

So that proves bodies were cremated. So what? Was it to stop the spread of disease?

[drkitten]

Well what is the specific evidence to prove it?

Well, let's see. The claim on the table, just to make sure we're on the same page, is that "the Nazi's systematically killed [multiple] millions of Jews."

So, let's start with the basics. Werre there multiple millions of Jewish deaths under the Nazi regime? Yes. Simple demographic statistics prove it. For example, the Jewish population of Poland dropped from about 3.3million to less than 100,000 during the period from 1939--1945, while the number of Jewish emigrants/refugees/displaced persons was less than 250,000. So there were at least 2.5 million Jewish deaths in Poland alone. Similar demographic statistics indicate at least a half million Jewish deaths in Hungary, and so forth.

if your claim is that these two-and-a-half million Poles did not die, then where were they in 1946?

Were these people killed by the Nazis? Well, the Nazis were very public about how they were rounding up the Polish Jews; we have lots of surviving documentary evidence about the sweeps, as well as reports of the numbers of Jews killed (particularly by the Einsatzgruppen). We have train records indicating that millions of people were systematically delivered by train to the concentration camps, including the Operation Reinhard extermination camps, from which they never returned.

We further have forensic evidence in the forms of dead bodies and cremation remains.

We have eyewitness testimony by people who actually performed the killings, as well as official directives outlining the methods of killing and ordering the constrution of the killing equipment.

What more direct evidence would you like?

[drkitten]

So that proves bodies were cremated. So what?

It also proves how many bodies were cremated.

Was it to stop the spread of disease?

On that scale? Remember, there was enough capacity in the crematoria to empty the entire camp each month or so. There were enough people moving into that camp each month or so to re-fill it (we have train records, remember).

No disease known to science causes death on that scale and that quickly. An unknown disease of such magnitude would have wiped out the concentration camp guards as well -- which we know (from the surviving medical records) didn't happen.

And beyond that, if the disease were that virulent and dangerous, then continuing to ship prisoners into such an environment would constitute murder in and of itself.

So, no, it wasn't to stop the spread of disease.

[funk de fino]

Germans were tortured for their confessions. Not all the Jews say it happened. Some of them even admitted to lying.

Show me where germany's biggest newspaper tortured Oskar in this piece.

Apart from brief testimony at trials of gas chamber operators and the SS high command, he has never spoken of the camp - until now.

A 1948 tribunal cleared him of war crimes and he began work as the manager of a glass factory. But he never really left Auschwitz and it never left him.

"Every night and every day I remember it for the nightmare it was," he said in Bild, Germany's most widely read newspaper. "It was in 1942 that my SS chiefs in Berlin ordered me there.



rest of story as you really did not read it did you?

http://www.theage.com.au/news/World/Auschwitz-guards-life-of-lingering-nightmares/2005/01/26/1106415663534.html

The ovens and chambers do exist. Again they do not prove what is claimed that happened.

oskar is quite definite about what happened in the gas chambers, he seen it happen

who tortured gerhard schroeder in 2005 to make him admit this

http://www.theage.com.au/news/World/Schroeder-admits-ordinary-Germans-role/2005/01/26/1106415663543.html

the germans admit it but you deny it?

you wanted links so here they are, read them this time

[kageki]

It's possible to have extermination camps without "burning people alive in ovens. There are more ways to kill people than by burning them.


Yes we know that which if it was the official narrative no one would argue. The Nazis didn't burn Jews alive in ovens.



Which they did. They then burned the bodies in crematoria, enough bodies to make a twenty-foot thick layer of human ash at Treblinka (IIRC).

The nature of that layer of ash is easily identifiable upon chemical analysis. How many bodies does it take to get that much ash? How do you get that many bodies short of deliberate extermination?



Many people died due to disease and starvation. Have you heard of the Black Plague? Ashes don't prove extermination do they?


Oh? What's your explanation for the 500,000 people who arrived at Belzec and never left?

You keep simply asserting that the extermination camps never existed. But merely stating someting over and over again doesn't make it true, rational, or even believable. If you really think that Belzec was something other than an extermination camp, then you should be able to explain what happened to all the people who (you believe) weren't exterminated there.

Killing nearly 100,000 civilians by gassing in trucks is hardly "how anyone would kill people in wars."

Where exactly is the source for this number? If that many people vanished then surely there must be traces left? You haven't provided anything to prove that it was an extermination camp either.

Experts are wondering if you can really kill that many people using engine exhaust. You people bank too much on the results of a kangaroo court, but since that is the case for now then I'll just have to believe these trucks really existed which still doesn't add up to 6 million or that it was just Jews.

[kageki]

It also proves how many bodies were cremated.



On that scale? Remember, there was enough capacity in the crematoria to empty the entire camp each month or so. There were enough people moving into that camp each month or so to re-fill it (we have train records, remember).

No disease known to science causes death on that scale and that quickly. An unknown disease of such magnitude would have wiped out the concentration camp guards as well -- which we know (from the surviving medical records) didn't happen.

And beyond that, if the disease were that virulent and dangerous, then continuing to ship prisoners into such an environment would constitute murder in and of itself.

So, no, it wasn't to stop the spread of disease.

This entire post is assumptions. Where's is the evidence to prove the exact capacity for these crematoriums? Many might have been deported further east?

It wasn't just disease obviously, but it played a big role as there was an epidimic.

Your claim that burning corpses wasn't at least partially to stop the spread of disease is factually incorrect.

[drkitten]

Many people died due to disease and starvation. Have you heard of the Black Plague?

I have indeed. I also know that it doesn't kill at that rate. Medicine has advanced just a bit since the 14th century, you know....

Ashes don't prove extermination do they?

Well, they prove death. If you have another explanation for deaths on that scale that will stand up to realistic analysis -- and "disease" will not -- I invite you to present it.





Where exactly is the source for this number?

Already presented. Train manifests, as cited in "The Operation Reinhard Death Camps."

f that many people vanished then surely there must be traces left?

There are indeed. A twenty-foot thick layer of cremated human bodies.



Experts are wondering if you can really kill that many people using engine exhaust.

No, they're not. The "experts" already know that you can. See the Irving trial. For that matter, work it out on a pocket calculator for yourself. The capacities of the trucks (including how long it takes to kill people and how many people they would hold) are clearly presented in the Irving trial.

[funk de fino]

Have you heard of the Black Plague?

have you?

when was the last time this was in europe?

you really are all over the place aren't you

where is your proof that you were taught that the nazis killed the jews by burning them in ovens? i think you are lying, either that or you went to a "special" school

[Sabrina]

I don't recall hearing about epidemics during WWII. Please source the claim that there was one; thank you.

[drkitten]

This entire post is assumptions.

None of it is assumptions.

Where's is the evidence to prove the exact capacity for these crematoriums?

The architect's blueprints and design documents.

Many might have been deported further east?

How? Not by train -- the manifests are very clear on that. There wasn't enough transport capacity otherwise. And there's still this pesky matter of human remains that didn't get there by itself.



It wasn't just disease obviously, but it played a big role as there was an epidimic.

What epidemic? Show that such an epidemic occurred (in all three camps -- remember, we need to explain the deaths at all of the extermination camps), that it lasted for the entire year-and-a-half that the camps were in operation, and give me some independent estimates about the number of casualties caused by the epidemic.

Beyond that -- just how big a role? Even if an epidemic killed half the people in the camp (which I doubt, and which I suspect you will be unable to support), what happened to the other half?





Your claim that burning corpses wasn't at least partially to stop the spread of disease is factually incorrect.

I stand by my writing. Your "epidemic" is an assumption, and a particularly egregious one.

[HyJinX]

<snip>i think you are lying, either that or you went to a "special" school

http://seattleblog.net/wp-content/uploads/2006/05/larson_gifted.jpg

[kageki]

I don't recall hearing about epidemics during WWII. Please source the claim that there was one; thank you.

http://www.scrapbookpages.com/BergenBelsen/BergenBelsen01.html


Some of the prisoners died of dysentery, but most of them perished in an epidemic of spotted fever (typhus) which broke out in mid November 1941.

By far the biggest killer in the camp was typhus, a deadly disease that is transmitted by body lice.

It shows that there were 350 deaths in the camp in December 1944 before the typhus epidemic started. In January 1945, after a typhoid epidemic started, there were between 800 and 1000 deaths; in February 1945, after the typhus epidemic broke out, there were 6,000 to 7,000 deaths. In March 1945, the number of deaths had escalated to an incredible 18,168 in only one month. In April 1945, the deaths were 18,355 in only one month, with half of these deaths occurring after the British took over. Unlike the death camps in Poland, the Bergen-Belsen camp was not equipped to handle this kind of death rate; there was only one crematory oven in the camp.

To fight typhus epidemics during World War II, the Germans used an insecticide, called Zyklon B, to kill the lice which were common in the overcrowded Nazi concentration camps. Zyklon B was also used as a poison gas to kill the Jews in the gas chambers, although there was no gas chamber at Bergen-Belsen. Initially, the Jews at Bergen-Belsen were well-treated because the Nazis were hoping to use them for exchange for German prisoners.

[kageki]

have you?

when was the last time this was in europe?

you really are all over the place aren't you

where is your proof that you were taught that the nazis killed the jews by burning them in ovens? i think you are lying, either that or you went to a "special" school

Funk you should really stop this pathetic attempt at playing dumb. Even my mother who grew up in Japan associate the Holocaust with the ovens.

Why don't you go to your usual Holocaust sources? Why is the idea of Jews burning alive in ovens so prominent in my belief in the Holocaust? Why were people so hesitant in answering no to my question about ovens?

[Gravy]

Well what is the specific evidence to prove it?kageki, I'm asking you to try to be as rational as you can, and not to waste our time. Let's focus on what's most important, okay?

Allow me to direct you to this past exchange of ours. I gave you the following links several times. At these sites are authoritative answers to all the common – and many uncommon – Holocaust denial claims:
http://www.nizkor.org/

66 Questions & Answers About the Holocaust (http://www.nizkor.org/features/qar/)

This is the third time that I've linked to Nizkor for your benefit. Specifically what do they get wrong? Back your claims with equal or superior evidence to that used by Nizkor.

Fair enough, kageki?

You replied:
What exactly is the point of just linking the entirety of the site? I've read the articles on there and I don't find some of them persuasive especially on the contentious issues....

However, kageki, you did not say what you found unconvincing, and why, nor did you present evidence to refute a single one of Nizkor's answers, as I asked you to do. I doubt that you can have read very much of the information on that site or the sources it cites.

If you are here simply to state your opinion and leave it at that, please say so. If you have made up your mind and cannot be swayed, please do the right thing and say so. I'm sure you don't want us wasting our valuable time, right? Right?

But if you are here to find answers to questions that are unresolved in your mind, we can help. What we cannot do, kageki, is present all the evidence for every Holocaust issue. As I've repeatedly said, the subject is far too vast for that. Let's please be adult about this.

Are we talking about the Final Solution?You tell us. This is about specifically what you need to know. As a reminder, the subject of this thread is "The Holocaust never happened!"

So, kageki, for the eighth time: We want to direct you to the information you need. Specifically what would convince you that the Nazis systematically killed millions of Jews?

[drkitten]

Cool. Let's look at that a little more closely.


Unlike the death camps in Poland, the Bergen-Belsen camp was not equipped to handle this kind of death rate; there was only one crematory oven in the camp.


So, to start out with, this is explicitly not a death camp we're talking about. This is Bergen-Belsen, not Treblinka, Sobibor, or Belzec. All of those camps had much greater crematory capacity (check the blueprints if necessary).

But let's do the math.


here were 350 deaths in the camp in December 1944 before the typhus epidemic started. In January 1945, after a typhoid epidemic started, there were between 800 and 1000 deaths; in February 1945, after the typhus epidemic broke out, there were 6,000 to 7,000 deaths. In March 1945, the number of deaths had escalated to an incredible 18,168 in only one month. In April 1945, the deaths were 18,355 in only one month, with half of these deaths occurring after the British took over.

Let's assume that the 350 deaths/month "before the typhus epidemic started" was typical of the 50 or so months between 1945 when the camp was in operation. That's 17,500 deaths prior to 1945. January had 1000 deaths, February had 7000, March and April both had 20,000. That's 65,500 deaths from typhus.

Compare that to the known population of Bergen-Belsen (about 60,000 prisoners), that is indeed frightening. Why, a third of the population died every month from disease.

However, remember that at Belzec, the entire population died every month. So even if there were an equally bad epidemic at Belzec, that still means that 2/3 of the population would be dying of other causes each month. What killed them?

And, of course, the epidemic wouldn't have been nearly as bad at the Reinhard camps, precisely because the major contributing factor -- the lack of sufficient crematory capacity -- wasn't there.

This particular citation does more to prove the existence of the Holocaust than to deny it.

[SDC]

LOL. What does shootings have to do with whether burnings pits are possible?

First, no, ovens not "debunked." That's a strawman argument. The primary methods were gassing, shooting, starvation, disease and working to death. Oh yeah, other methods of excecution such as hangings and beatings.

You are "LOL"-ing over mass murder. What a despicable statement.

Shooting was second-largest means of killing applied in the Holocaust.

[SDC]

Well let's see it. You people never seem to cough up anything to back up your claims.

Mass gassings don't even seem possible. Testimonies are not solid evidence.

Well we are told that Nazis were burning people alive in ovens. I want to know if that was made up.

Mass gassings are entirely possible and indeed took place. Where did you decide they weren't/ didn't?

Individual testimony is usable evidence both in a court of law and in historical research. (I speak as someone with a PhD in European history from the University of Michigan, Ann Arbor.) What is your credential? High school diploma from the Joseph Goebbels Famous Murderers' College?

Mass shooting was also carried out, etc etc. Your statements are not merely vile, they are lies.

[SDC]

And as Kageki well knows, there are tons of documentary evidence generated by the Nazis themselves. Go to Bad Arolsen, Hesse, Germany.

[Dave Rogers]

Many people died due to disease and starvation. Have you heard of the Black Plague? Ashes don't prove extermination do they?

Where exactly is the source for this number? If that many people vanished then surely there must be traces left?

I think it's time to put this Nazi on ignore. If you point out that there were human remains, he admits is but denies that there was evidence that people were killed. If you point out the evidence that people were killed, he suddenly forgets about the human remains and in the same post claims that they didn't exist. He's lying and he knows it.

Bye bye, Kageki. Good luck dealing with your feelings about yourself when you grow up.

Dave

[SDC]

Germans were tortured for their confessions. Not all the Jews say it happened. Some of them even admitted to lying.



You make three claims here. Sources please.

[Gravy]

This particular citation does more to prove the existence of the Holocaust than to deny it.Indeed. kageki, here's a little bit more about Bergen-Belsen, from the Nizkor "66 questions and answers (http://www.nizkor.org/features/qar/qar37.html)" page. Please follow the link.

Tens of thousands of prisoners starved at Belsen. If you've seen a film of emaciated corpses being bulldozed into mass graves, it was probably taken at Belsen. The contrast to the well-fed SS women is quite remarkable. Scenes from the liberation of Bergen-Belsen (http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/camps/bergen-belsen/Bergen-Belsen-00.html) demonstrate this beyond question.

Also, hardly any of the Allied prisoners from Western nations starved to death; there were people that the Nazis wanted to keep alive, and there were people they preferred dead. A great number of Soviet POW's died -- over three million -- for this reason.

[funk de fino]

Funk you should really stop this pathetic attempt at playing dumb. Even my mother who grew up in Japan associate the Holocaust with the ovens.

Why don't you go to your usual Holocaust sources? Why is the idea of Jews burning alive in ovens so prominent in my belief in the Holocaust? Why were people so hesitant in answering no to my question about ovens?

Why have you gone silent on the Black Plague?

I have never been taught in school that they burned the jews alive. I was always taught that they were gassed then burnt.

I was taught in Scotland. Any other scots out there who want to disagree with me?

Any americans out there who want to agree with Kageki that the american education system does not mention gassings and in fact claims the nazis burned the jews alive?

They were hesitant because no-one made the claim, it was you.

The nazis gassed and killed all those jews just because of their religion. Then they burnt them in ovens to get rid of the bodies.

And as has been pointed out, no-one is claiming Belsen was a death camp, you are moving goalposts again and your own quote debunks you, well done

So what about the link to the german newspaper kag, why did the german govt admit what they did? were they being tortured?

[kageki]

Cool. Let's look at that a little more closely.



So, to start out with, this is explicitly not a death camp we're talking about. This is Bergen-Belsen, not Treblinka, Sobibor, or Belzec. All of those camps had much greater crematory capacity (check the blueprints if necessary).

But let's do the math.



Let's assume that the 350 deaths/month "before the typhus epidemic started" was typical of the 50 or so months between 1945 when the camp was in operation. That's 17,500 deaths prior to 1945. January had 1000 deaths, February had 7000, March and April both had 20,000. That's 65,500 deaths from typhus.

Compare that to the known population of Bergen-Belsen (about 60,000 prisoners), that is indeed frightening. Why, a third of the population died every month from disease.

However, remember that at Belzec, the entire population died every month. So even if there were an equally bad epidemic at Belzec, that still means that 2/3 of the population would be dying of other causes each month. What killed them?

And, of course, the epidemic wouldn't have been nearly as bad at the Reinhard camps, precisely because the major contributing factor -- the lack of sufficient crematory capacity -- wasn't there.

This particular citation does more to prove the existence of the Holocaust than to deny it.

How so?

I'm sure you can think of plenty of other reasons why people die? Like starvation since resources were limited due to the Allied bombing campaign?

Now I also wonder is the 6 million dead all from this systematic execution? or Are some of the deaths in this figure from starvation and disease?

[SDC]

Funk you should really stop this pathetic attempt at playing dumb. Even my mother who grew up in Japan associate the Holocaust with the ovens.

Why don't you go to your usual Holocaust sources? Why is the idea of Jews burning alive in ovens so prominent in my belief in the Holocaust? Why were people so hesitant in answering no to my question about ovens?

Strawpeople!

Your mother's education is not at issue.

Your belief, or what you were taught, is not really the issue.

People were not hesitant. Have you got 90% of your correspondents on Ignore? I'll add that in my case I found it hard to believe any single person could make such foolish statements. Slows down one's responses.

[SDC]

Yes we know that which if it was the official narrative no one would argue. The Nazis didn't burn Jews alive in ovens.



Many people died due to disease and starvation. Have you heard of the Black Plague? Ashes don't prove extermination do they?



Where exactly is the source for this number? If that many people vanished then surely there must be traces left? You haven't provided anything to prove that it was an extermination camp either.

Experts are wondering if you can really kill that many people using engine exhaust. You people bank too much on the results of a kangaroo court, but since that is the case for now then I'll just have to believe these trucks really existed which still doesn't add up to 6 million or that it was just Jews.

Many died of disease, starvation, and overwork while locked in camps and ghettos under German military control. Can you spell "culpability"?

Kangeroo court would be what? Now you hate the Australians, too?

Who are these wondering "experts"? You? David Irving? Don't make me laugh.

Well, go ahead. Make me laugh.

[kageki]

First, no, ovens not "debunked." That's a strawman argument. The primary methods were gassing, shooting, starvation, disease and working to death. Oh yeah, other methods of excecution such as hangings and beatings.

You are "LOL"-ing over mass murder. What a despicable statement.

Shooting was second-largest means of killing applied in the Holocaust.

Well now since people seem to have amnesia, let me ask you personally. Did you believe that Nazis were burning Jews alive in ovens? If no, then fine. Just don't believe that such thing happened.

Yes that is the argument put forth by deniers actually. That no gassings and ovens happened.

If you want to argue that starvation and disease was intentional then you better back that up with sources.

[kageki]

Many died of disease, starvation, and overwork while locked in camps and ghettos under German military control. Can you spell "culpability"?

Kangeroo court would be what? Now you hate the Australians, too?

Who are these wondering "experts"? You? David Irving? Don't make me laugh.

Well, go ahead. Make me laugh.

For what? Many died in the camps in a "natural" manner.

I don't see any mention of death factories in your post either.

[Gravy]

This is one of the more stunning Holocaust statistics. It's been a while since I came across it. The document can be seen on this page (http://www.nizkor.org/features/qar/qar43.html). Fire stokers at the Auschwitz crematoria:

One might ask the IHR why the Nazis required so many stokers, as this SS document clearly demonstrates, if only a few hundred thousand Jews died? (See Question 36 (http://www.nizkor.org/features/qar/qar36.html))

In October 7, 1944, the strength of the sonderkommando (referred to as "heizer" = stoker/burner, in the official SS documents), was:

Krema II: day shift 84, night shift 85.
Krema III: day shift 84, night shift 85.
Krema IV: day shift 84, night shift 85.
Krema V: day shift 72, night shift 84.

That is, 663 altogether.

APMO, D-AuII-3a/1, Inventory No. 29723. See Czech, "Auschwitz Chronicle 1939-1945". p. 724. See also Document on display in the "Jewish Martyrdom" exhibit in Auschwitz Main Camp, listing 661 stokers in October 3, 1944.

[drkitten]

Well now since people seem to have amnesia, let me ask you personally. Did you believe that Nazis were burning Jews alive in ovens? If no, then fine. Just don't believe that such thing happened.

Yes that is the argument put forth by deniers actually. That no gassings and ovens happened.

You really don't get it, do you? The gassings are part of the reason that Jews weren't burned alive in ovens; they had been killed by gas first.

Your "argument" is actively refuting itself.


If you want to argue that starvation and disease was intentional then you better back that up with sources.

No. I want to argue that killing people by gassing was intentional.

Not killing people by burning them alive. By gassing.

People were put into gas chambers and poisoned. They died, and their dead bodies were burned in ovens. And far more people died from gassing than from starvation and disease. By your own numbers, about twice as many....

[SDC]

For what? Many died in the camps in a "natural" manner.

I don't see any mention of death factories in your post either.

"'Natural'"?? Your comments would be comical if they weren't so vile.

Where the heck do you come up with "amnesia"?

OK, death factories. The Operation Reinhard camps, plus other complexes such as Auschwitz-Birkenau, Majdanek, and other large ones, operated as death factories. The Einsatzgruppen out in the fields (so to speak) applied industrial methods to their killing as well.

You still haven't answered: what do the guys down at the Laughing Nazi Saloon say when you, a self-proclaimed non-Aryan, set yourself down and say "Hi Guys! I'm here!"

[kageki]

Why have you gone silent on the Black Plague?

I have never been taught in school that they burned the jews alive. I was always taught that they were gassed then burnt.

I was taught in Scotland. Any other scots out there who want to disagree with me?

Any americans out there who want to agree with Kageki that the american education system does not mention gassings and in fact claims the nazis burned the jews alive?

They were hesitant because no-one made the claim, it was you.

The nazis gassed and killed all those jews just because of their religion. Then they burnt them in ovens to get rid of the bodies.

And as has been pointed out, no-one is claiming Belsen was a death camp, you are moving goalposts again and your own quote debunks you, well done

So what about the link to the german newspaper kag, why did the german govt admit what they did? were they being tortured?

They teach you both. That Nazis burned Jews alive in ovens and gassed them. Well ok I'm glad we established that no Jews were burned alive in ovens. Must be some silly conspiracy theory I was told then.

They actually didn't persecute them just for the religion. Hitler legimitately felt the Jewish population had a negative influence on their country.

Yes since Germany lost it's not unreasonable to think they had demands coerced on them. It sucks to lose a war.

[Darat]

So a new definition of "natural causes" enters the dictionary.

"A process under the complete control of an organisation".

[kageki]

"'Natural'"?? Your comments would be comical if they weren't so vile.

Where the heck do you come up with "amnesia"?

OK, death factories. The Operation Reinhard camps, plus other complexes such as Auschwitz-Birkenau, Majdanek, and other large ones, operated as death factories. The Einsatzgruppen out in the fields (so to speak) applied industrial methods to their killing as well.

You still haven't answered: what do the guys down at the Laughing Nazi Saloon say when you, a self-proclaimed non-Aryan, set yourself down and say "Hi Guys! I'm here!"

Well if people died from typhus what would you call that?

Auschwitz? No. The other camps? Most likely not.

Einsatzgruppen is poorly documented. "Industrialized" in this manner involving shooting people then sure.

[SDC]

It wasn't simply religion; it was "race," whatever that means. Conversion to Christianity didn't help. I'm in correspondence right now (on completely different topics) with a man whose family fled to Sweden from Germany in 1939 -- his mother's family had converted to Lutheranism from Judaism, but in the Nazi mind -- and in Kageki's, it seems -- they were still evil Jews, to be exterminated. So they were among the lucky ones who got out before the war started and borders shut. They were friends of one Jochen Klepper, whose family was in the same situation, all of whom committed suicide together, in Germany, a couple of years later, and are now revered as martyurs.

And Kaggiekins, I'm not going to link it. You look it up. Please note that Klepper was a "race traitor."

[kageki]

So a new definition of "natural causes" enters the dictionary.

"A process under the complete control of an organisation".

Darat.

When people die "naturally" from an epidemic of a disease. what else would you call that? Yes the Nazis did try to control the spread of disease using Zyklon B.

Do you have sources to back up your claim that the disease was intentional if that is what you are implying?

[Terry]

Hitler legimitately felt the Jewish population had a negative influence on their country.

(bolding mine). Please, do feel free to support the claimed negative effect the Jewish population of Germany were having.

[SDC]

Einsatzgruppen is poorly documented. "Industrialized" in this manner involving shooting people then sure.

Gosh darn it! Don't you know any German? What sources are you working from? It's embarrassing to have to tell you this stuff. I thought all good Holocaust deniers had to have at least some German.

Einsatzgruppen = plural; essentially, special assignment groups, or teams.

Nick Terry of this list did his thesis on just one of the big Einsatzgruppe. Ask him how poorly documented they are.

Say, where are your pals? Are they too embarrassed to be seen with a non-Aryan?

[kageki]

It wasn't simply religion; it was "race," whatever that means. Conversion to Christianity didn't help. I'm in correspondence right now (on completely different topics) with a man whose family fled to Sweden from Germany in 1939 -- his mother's family had converted to Lutheranism from Judaism, but in the Nazi mind -- and in Kageki's, it seems -- they were still evil Jews, to be exterminated. So they were among the lucky ones who got out before the war started and borders shut. They were friends of one Jochen Klepper, whose family was in the same situation, all of whom committed suicide together, in Germany, a couple of years later, and are now revered as martyurs.

And Kaggiekins, I'm not going to link it. You look it up. Please note that Klepper was a "race traitor."

I know that. It was someone else that said Nazis hunted down Jews for their religion.

It is quite sad to hear these stories. Unfortunately Zionists decided it was necessary to create this persecution so they can get their Israel.

[Darat]

Darat.

When people die "naturally" from an epidemic of a disease. what else would you call that? Yes the Nazis did try to control the spread of disease using Zyklon B.

Do you have sources to back up your claim that the disease was intentional if that is what you are implying?

(I do not imply anything - I simply and honestly say what I mean rather than trying to hide behind duplicitous mealymouthed cowardice.)

Why were the people who died of "natural causes" in the place where there was an epidemic of the disease?

[Drudgewire]

Hitler legimitately felt the Jewish population had a negative influence on their country.
So there was no Holocaust, but if there had been there'd be a legitimate reason for it?

:dig:

[kageki]

(bolding mine). Please, do feel free to support the claimed negative effect the Jewish population of Germany were having.

Do you people ever read other then Nizkor?

Hitler laid it out such as a degradation of their culture and the strangehold of the Jews on their economy.

You just never bother to read it or accept that it's true, but that is what Hitler said in his own words.

[funk de fino]

They teach you both. That Nazis burned Jews alive in ovens and gassed them. Well ok I'm glad we established that no Jews were burned alive in ovens. Must be some silly conspiracy theory I was told then.

proof?

They actually didn't persecute them just for the religion. Hitler legimitately felt the Jewish population had a negative influence on their country.

But they were jewish and they were killed because they were jewish? What right had hitler to say the Jews were bad for countries that were not his?


Yes since Germany lost it's not unreasonable to think they had demands coerced on them. It sucks to lose a war.

What war did they lose in 2005 when they said this kag? you said it was because of torture or lies. Are the german govt lying?

Did you read Oskars story? He was not tortured and he admits the gassings?

[Darat]

Do you people ever read other then Nizkor?

Hitler laid it out such as a degradation of their culture and the strangehold of the Jews on their economy.

You just never bother to read it or accept that it's true, but that is what Hitler said in his own words.


Hitler was a liar.

[Drudgewire]

You just never bother to read it or accept that it's true, but that is what Hitler said in his own words.
That doesn't make it legitimate. It just gives ammo to the whole "the Holocaust happened" side. http://www.lethalwrestling.com/upload/ssh.gif

[kageki]

So there was no Holocaust, but if there had been there'd be a legitimate reason for it?

:dig:

Hitler felt it was legitimate. I make no claims that it was correct.

There is no indication that the Holocaust was about the extermination of Jews. Just deportation. He did have plans to exterminate a whole lot more Slavs though.

It would not be legit for an extermination plan off course, but it seems like Hitler wanted to deport them. Kind of like deporting illegal immigrants in the US.

[drkitten]

They teach you both. That Nazis burned Jews alive in ovens and gassed them.

Then "they" are incompetent. No reputable historian or history teacher would tell you that the Nazi's burned Jews alive in ovens.

The official story is that the Jews were killed by gassing (among other methods, primarily shooting, and deliberate fostering of deadly conditions such as overwork, starvation, and disease) and the bodies were cremated.

The official story then goes on to note that some of the major centers for gassing were the "death camps" such as Treblinka. Other camps, officially designated as "labor camps" such as Auschwitz, were less deadly in terms of survival rate (almost no one survived Treblinka, while a substantial number survived Auschwitz) but were still places where tens or hundreds of thousands were put to death. For example, anyone arriving at Auschwitz who was judged unfit for labor was put to death (by gassing) immediately upon arrival.

[kageki]

Hitler was a liar.

So what do you think then? Hitler just made up those excuses because he just wanted to kill Jews for no reason at all?

[Drudgewire]

It would not be legit for an extermination plan off course, but it seems like Hitler wanted to deport them. Kind of like deporting illegal immigrants in the US.
And yet they simply disappeared. Did he deport them to Candyland?

[funk de fino]

Hitler laid it out such as a degradation of their culture and the strangehold of the Jews on their economy.

You just never bother to read it or accept that it's true, but that is what Hitler said in his own words.

Hitler told Chamberlain he would not start a war on Poland. He lied.

He was a coward also

[kageki]

(I do not imply anything - I simply and honestly say what I mean rather than trying to hide behind duplicitous mealymouthed cowardice.)

Why were the people who died of "natural causes" in the place where there was an epidemic of the disease?

It seemed like the epidemic was widespread in Europe. Funny your sentence is implying deliberation.

Why did the Nazis delouse them to kill the lice responsible for typhus?

[kageki]

And yet they simply disappeared. Did he deport them to Candyland?

And people wonder where did they disappear? It's hard to make bodies disappear you know.

[Drudgewire]

And people wonder where did they disappear? It's hard to make bodies disappear you know.
I guess pointing out the ovens would be moot at this point, huh?

[drkitten]

Hitler felt it was legitimate. Hitler legimitately felt the Jewish population had a negative influence on their country.


There is no indication that the Holocaust was about the extermination of Jews

Hans Frank's diary (from Nazi Conspiracy and Aggression, 1946, Vol. I, pp. 992, 994):

But what should be done with the Jews? Do you think they will be settled down in the 'Ostland' [eastern territories], in [resettlement] villages? This is what we were told in Berlin: Why all this bother? We can do nothing with them either in the 'Ostland' nor in the 'Reichkommissariat.' So liquidate them yourself.

Gentlemen, I must ask you to rid yourself of all feeling of pity. We must annihilate the Jews, wherever we find them and wherever it is possible, in order to maintain the structure of the Reich as a whole. ...

We cannot shoot or poison these 3,500,000 Jews, but we shall nevertheless be able to take measures, which will lead, somehow, to their annihilation....

That we sentence 1,200,000 Jews to die of hunger should be noted only marginally.


Himmler's speech at Posen on October 4, 1943 was captured on audiotape (Trial of the Major War Criminals, 1948, Vol. XXIX, p. 145, trans. by current author):

I refer now to the evacuation of the Jews, the extermination of the Jewish people. This is one of those things that is easily said: "the Jewish people are being exterminated," says every Party member, "quite true, it's part of our plans, the elimination of the Jews, extermination, we're doing it."

Goebbels (as translated in Lochner, The Goebbels Diaries, 1948, pp. 86, 147-148):


February 14, 1942: The Führer once again expressed his determination to clean up the Jews in Europe pitilessly. There must be no squeamish sentimentalism about it. The Jews have deserved the catastrophe that has now overtaken them. Their destruction will go hand in hand with the destruction of our enemies. We must hasten this process with cold ruthlessness.

March 27, 1942: The procedure is a pretty barbaric one and not to be described here more definitely. Not much will remain of the Jews. On the whole it can be said that about 60 per cent of them will have to be liquidated whereas only 40 per cent can be used for forced labor.



Just deportation.

Or "liquidation," "destruction," and, yes, "extermination"

not be legit for an extermination plan off course,

Not legit, perhaps. But real nevertheless.

Or how do you interpret policy statements about "annihiliation" multiple millions of Jews?

[drkitten]

I guess pointing out the ovens would be moot at this point, huh?

And the twenty-foot thick layer of crematory ash. It takes a special sort of mind to wonder where all the people vanished to while at the same time wondering where all the dead bodies came from.

[kageki]

Then "they" are incompetent. No reputable historian or history teacher would tell you that the Nazi's burned Jews alive in ovens.

The official story is that the Jews were killed by gassing (among other methods, primarily shooting, and deliberate fostering of deadly conditions such as overwork, starvation, and disease) and the bodies were cremated.

The official story then goes on to note that some of the major centers for gassing were the "death camps" such as Treblinka. Other camps, officially designated as "labor camps" such as Auschwitz, were less deadly in terms of survival rate (almost no one survived Treblinka, while a substantial number survived Auschwitz) but were still places where tens or hundreds of thousands were put to death. For example, anyone arriving at Auschwitz who was judged unfit for labor was put to death (by gassing) immediately upon arrival.

Ok then, but apparently I'm not the only one asking:

http://www.akqv.com/History/20070423/78773.html

Yes Auschwitz was a labor camp.

[kageki]

And the twenty-foot thick layer of crematory ash. It takes a special sort of mind to wonder where all the people vanished to while at the same time wondering where all the dead bodies came from.

Does that account for the 6 million dead or how those people died that were cremated?

[kageki]

I guess pointing out the ovens would be moot at this point, huh?

Yes. That they cremated bodies right?

[Drudgewire]

Does that account for the 6 million dead or how those people died that were cremated?
Between that and the mass graves (as well as the bodies that hadn't been buried yet and had to be disposed of by captured members of the SS), it certainly proves a Holocaust.

Or is your assertion that there was a Holocaust, just with an inflated body count? Would two million have made it any less of a horrifying act, or does actually killing two million people not rank as low as tripling the number for political gain on your morality scale? (Not that they did, but let's play your game for a second.)

[kageki]

Between that and the mass graves (as well as the bodies that hadn't been buried yet and had to be disposed of by captured members of the SS), it certainly proves a Holocaust.

Or is your assertion that there was a Holocaust, just with an inflated body count? Would two million have made it any less of a horrifying act, or does actually killing two million people not rank as low as tripling the number for political gain on your morality scale? (Not that they did, but let's play your game for a second.)

The stupid demagoging is getting old. MaGZ pointed out that the US invaded Iceland in WWII. Do you how someone responded? That the US didn't kill 1/5 of the population as though to diminish this act.

Anyways, I have no intent other then getting the facts correct. Are you saying it's 2 million?

[Drudgewire]

Anyways, I have no intent other then getting the facts correct. Are you saying it's 2 million?
No I'm not. I'm saying EVEN IF YOUR LIES WERE TRUTH it would still prove a Holocaust.

[kageki]

No I'm not. I'm saying EVEN IF YOUR LIES WERE TRUTH it would still prove a Holocaust.

Well you haven't proved that mass gassings are possible with Zyklon B or that the labor camps were extermination camps.

[SDC]

Ok then, but apparently I'm not the only one asking: (I cut a link).

Yes Auschwitz was a labor camp.

And an extermination camp. It was a complex of camps. Best est is that 1.5mln people of all varieties were killed there. So don't try to sneak that one by.

Don't you ever get tired of being so wrong?

And where are your good buddies, all those "Aryans" you dream of hanging out with? (Evidently.)

[SDC]

The stupid demagoging is getting old. MaGZ pointed out that the US invaded Iceland in WWII. Do you how someone responded? That the US didn't kill 1/5 of the population as though to diminish this act.

Anyways, I have no intent other then getting the facts correct. Are you saying it's 2 million?

So now you equate the Iceland case, with the Holocaust? Your comments are beyond belief. I advise you to apply for the $1 mln Randi challenge.

That is to say, I have no idea whether you claim paranormal powers, but the way you are going that could be your next move. I mean, why not?

[SDC]

Well you haven't proved that mass gassings are possible with Zyklon B or that the labor camps were extermination camps.

Nizkor link, Nizkor link, Nizkor link.

It has been proved. You just don't like it.

[Terry]

Well you haven't proved that mass gassings are possible with Zyklon B

Do you dispute that hydrogen cyanide is extremely toxic? What is it exactly that make you think mass gassings aren't possible?

[Drudgewire]

It has been proved. You just don't like it.
Kind of a recurring theme, honestly.

[Sabrina]

Just thought I'd offer this up:

dem·a·gogue also dem·a·gog (děm'ə-gôg', -gŏg') Pronunciation Key
n.
A leader who obtains power by means of impassioned appeals to the emotions and prejudices of the populace.
A leader of the common people in ancient times.

tr.v. dem·a·gogued also dem·a·goged, dem·a·gogu·ing also dem·a·go·ging, dem·a·gogues also dem·a·gogs
Usage Problem To speak about (an issue, for example) in the manner of a demagogue.


[Greek dēmagōgos, popular leader : dēmos, people; see dā- in Indo-European roots + agōgos, leading (from agein, to lead; see ag- in Indo-European roots).]


Usage Note: Among the nouns that the Usage Panel is loath to see used as a verb is demagogue, meaning "to speak about something in the manner of a demagogue." Ninety-four percent reject it in the sentence The President will demagogue Medicare, unwilling to acknowledge that fundamental reforms need to be made. Resistance to the use of traditional nouns as verbs is sometimes strong, especially when the novel usages are associated with business or bureaucratic jargon.

Demagogue is a noun. If I'm reading this correctly, it should not be used as a verb. If you're that desperate for a verb, kageki, may I suggest pontificating instead?[/derail]

[kageki]

So now you equate the Iceland case, with the Holocaust? Your comments are beyond belief. I advise you to apply for the $1 mln Randi challenge.

That is to say, I have no idea whether you claim paranormal powers, but the way you are going that could be your next move. I mean, why not?

No. Merely to point out that stating only 2 million died in the Holocaust would not diminish the event.

Are you also defending the US invasion of Iceland?

[kageki]

Just thought I'd offer this up:



Demagogue is a noun. If I'm reading this correctly, it should not be used as a verb. If you're that desperate for a verb, kageki, may I suggest pontificating instead?[/derail]

Politicians often say demagoging. You should email Ron Paul and tell him to stop saying that.

[Drudgewire]

You should email Ron Paul and tell him to stop saying that.
No need, he'll be a footnote soon enough. :p

[kageki]

Do you dispute that hydrogen cyanide is extremely toxic? What is it exactly that make you think mass gassings aren't possible?

Well Terry if you bother to read the criticism you would see that people that has worked with lethal gas don't believe mass extermination is possible using gas.

Because it's so toxic it would kill anyone around also. The bodies exude the gas. You would need a full body suit to be safe handling the corpses. None of it adds up to the feasibility.

Is this a debunking site or I believe everything that the government says site?

[kageki]

Nizkor link, Nizkor link, Nizkor link.

It has been proved. You just don't like it.

You just don't like that I maybe right.

Please do link to the specific page addressing the use of Zykon B. Please people start actually linking.

[Drudgewire]

Is this a debunking site or I believe everything that the government says site?
Debunk = To eliminate bunk.

If the government is the one spewing bunk, we call them on it. When racists cloaking themselves in historical revisionism spew bunk, they get the same treatment.

Facts are facts, supposition is supposition. Spin is spin. We only concern ourselves with the facts. VERIFIABLE facts. If you could produce any of them that stood up to the indisputable evidence, you'd be taken seriously.

But you haven't, therefore you aren't.

[Terry]

Well Terry if you bother to read the criticism you would see that people that has worked with lethal gas don't believe mass extermination is possible using gas.

Because it's so toxic it would kill anyone around also. The bodies exude the gas. You would need a full body suit to be safe handling the corpses. None of it adds up to the feasibility.

So its not that you don't think its possible, its just that you have some technical issues? Given that prisoners were used to move the corpses, I don't think that the safety of handling them was likely a major concern. And venting the chamber to free air would ensure the concentration of gas quickly diminished below the lethal level.


Is this a debunking site or I believe everything that the government says site?

neither.

[SDC]

You just don't like that I maybe right.

Please do link to the specific page addressing the use of Zykon B. Please people start actually linking.

Nizkor link, Nizkor link, Nizkor link.

And for heaven's sake, proofread your posts. It's embarrassing enough to have you spewing vile lies without them also being ungrammatical.

[Sabrina]

Politicians often say demagoging. You should email Ron Paul and tell him to stop saying that.

I don't speak to Ron Paul, nor do I have any interest in doing so. On the other hand, I have been speaking to you, and as I and the majority of the posters on here appreciate proper grammar and word usage, I thought you would appreciate the mild correction and cease using a noun as a verb. Was I wrong?

[SDC]

Are you also defending the US invasion of Iceland?

In the context of WW2, yes, absolutely. No question. No equivocation. You bet. All in favor.

Nizkor link.

[Belz...]

This proves nothing.

Nothing ever proves anything to you. Don't you see a problem with that ?

Say, what would you accept as evidence that they DID have "death factories" ?

Because so far, when you're not saying that it doesn't prove anything, you say this:

It looks fake to me.

That's very convenient.

[kageki]

So its not that you don't think its possible, its just that you have some technical issues? Given that prisoners were used to move the corpses, I don't think that the safety of handling them was likely a major concern. And venting the chamber to free air would ensure the concentration of gas quickly diminished below the lethal level.



neither.

Well if it doesn't seem technically possible to kill many people with gas and dispose of them then yes it would seem that the witnesses could be wrong.

You show no ability to think. Even if they didn't care for the prisoners it does them no good if all of them die trying to dispose the bodies right?

Yes but not in the time frame described by the witnesses. Not how everyone dies in minutes and how it can be vented in such a short time. The details do not seem to match according to the physical properties of Zykon B gas pellets.

For these reasons it seems doubtful whether it even occurred.

[kageki]

In the context of WW2, yes, absolutely. No question. No equivocation. You bet. All in favor.

Nizkor link.

Wow really? Did Iceland do anything to deserve to be invaded?

What about Nizkor? I don't see a whole lot there that says much.

[Belz...]

You just don't like that I maybe right.

Actually, you may not be right. Ever. But I think it's the fact that you ignore every piece of evidence presented to you that's getting on people's nerves.

[kageki]

I don't speak to Ron Paul, nor do I have any interest in doing so. On the other hand, I have been speaking to you, and as I and the majority of the posters on here appreciate proper grammar and word usage, I thought you would appreciate the mild correction and cease using a noun as a verb. Was I wrong?

Yes because people do use it as a verb. Do a search for "demagoging".

You're just being a tightwad because you can't argue. Yes you should stop posting dribble.


kageki, keep in mind your membership agreement requires you to be civil. Attack the argument, and not the person making the argument.

[kageki]

Actually, you may not be right. Ever. But I think it's the fact that you ignore every piece of evidence presented to you that's getting on people's nerves.

What a picture of corpses that died from a typhus outbreak?

That proves what exactly?

[Terry]

You show no ability to think.

Irony... level... approaching... lethality!


Even if they didn't care for the prisoners it does them no good if all of them die trying to dispose the bodies right?


You don't die right away from the kind of exposure you'd get from moving some bodies. Not that it is necessarily very good for you, of course.


Yes but not in the time frame described by the witnesses. Not how everyone dies in minutes and how it can be vented in such a short time.

They had big-ass ventilation fans.


The details do not seem to match according to the physical properties of Zykon B gas pellets.

For these reasons it seems doubtful whether it even occurred.

Seems doubtful to you, maybe.

[Sabrina]

Yes because people do use it as a verb. Do a search for "demagoging".

You're just being a tightwad because you can't argue. Yes you should stop posting dribble.

Reported, and while people may use it as such, I believe I pointed out that using it as such is done in error. Or did you not read the definition and the usage note at the end of it?

[kageki]

Reported, and while people may use it as such, I believe I pointed out that using it as such is done in error. Or did you not read the definition and the usage note at the end of it?

Well maybe you should get on tv and tell the media to stop using the word demagoging.


http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=19033

Don't you think it's high time that you followed George Bush's lead in mustering the political courage to tackle this entitlement head-on, rather than demagoging the issue by scaring the elderly?

Sabrina you probably just looked up the word didn't you?

[kageki]

Irony... level... approaching... lethality!



You don't die right away from the kind of exposure you'd get from moving some bodies. Not that it is necessarily very good for you, of course.



They had big-ass ventilation fans.



Seems doubtful to you, maybe.

You're plain wrong. The gas is extremely lethal so it is dangerous to move the bodies.

Let's say the ventilation was ok. It still remains doubtful people would die in minutes as described. Why? Zyklon B is made in pellets so it can be slow release.

Well some experts seem to think it's doubtful.

[Pardalis]

For crying out loud people, stop feeding him.

[SpitfireIX]

You're plain wrong. The gas is extremely lethal so it is dangerous to move the bodies.

Let's say the ventilation was ok. It still remains doubtful people would die in minutes as described. Why? Zyklon B is made in pellets so it can be slow release.

Well some experts seem to think it's doubtful.


I discussed these points up-thread. First, the bodies were generally removed by prisoners who were allowed to live (at least temporarily) in return for performing the duty. Second, they wore gas masks.

As for the so-called "experts," I'll respond as I responded before. I sincerely hope you aren't claiming that Fred Leuchter is an expert.

[Cleon]

Please discuss forum management issues in the appropriate area. Thread has been split off here (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=99775).

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Don't be a moron seriously. You just discredit yourself.

I am afraid that I am going to require independent confirmation that I am being a moron before I consider your request.

The exact number of 6 millions JEWS that died in the Holocaust is being debated. Not the actual total deaths in the Holocaust.

So you're ok with the 11 million total casualties, but deny that 50+% of the casualties were jewish?

How did the nazis kill 11 million people of all ethnicities/religious persuasions without running death camps?

Auschwitz? This day camp?

Day camp? Please submit your evidence that Auschwitz inmates were allowed to return home in the evenings and trusteed to report back in the morning.

You honestly think that one word answer is sufficient as an answer?

It's more verbose than what my grandfathers brothers gave. They joined the RAF and dumped high explosives out the bellies of Wellingtons, Halifaxes and Lancasters.

Would you prefer I be less verbose with you?

Can we agree no Jews were burned alive in ovens?

Of course not.

Given the nazi regimes encouragement and rewarding of brutality and cruelty and the very large numbers of victioms involved, I find it hard to believe that at no point did any SS officer think it would be amusing to have a couple jews (or roma, disabled persons, political prisoners, etc...) skip the gas chambers and go straight into ovens kicking and screaming.

And I am still waiting for your rebunking of the testimonies of these 50,657 Holocaust experts. (http://tc.usc.edu/vhitc/(fu15lgm0lsfxthfmepp40gq4)/default.aspx)

[SDC]

Wow really? Did Iceland do anything to deserve to be invaded?

What about Nizkor? I don't see a whole lot there that says much.

In the context of WW2, I'm completely in favor of the Iceland occupation.

Nizkor link, Nizkor link, Nizkor link. And I don't believe you even looked there.

[kageki]

I discussed these points up-thread. First, the bodies were generally removed by prisoners who were allowed to live (at least temporarily) in return for performing the duty. Second, they wore gas masks.

As for the so-called "experts," I'll respond as I responded before. I sincerely hope you aren't claiming that Fred Leuchter is an expert.

Gas is absorbed through the skin so you need more then a gas mask. Because of this the prisoners would die trying to remove the bodies even with a gas mask.

How about Wolfgang Froelich?

[Pardalis]

Gas is absorbed through the skin so you need more then a gas mask. Because of this the prisoners would die trying to remove the bodies even with a gas mask.


" In high concentrations, hydrogen cyanide is absorbed
through the skin; therefore complete reliance cannot
be placed on a gas mask. After 1 hour exposure, 100
to 250 ppm of HCN are dangerous."

[from: Elkins, Hervey B. _The Chemistry of Toxicology_.
(New York: John Wiley and Sons Ltd.) 2nd (c) 1959, p 94.]

Now, cyanide will absorb through the skin, but the text
explicity mentions a one _hour_ exposure time. For absorption
through the skin to have been a real danger, the Sonderkommando
at Auschwitz would have to work in cyanide concentrations of
100 to 250 ppm or higher for an hour or more."


That Nizkor link is really interesting, SDC ;)

[Cleon]

" In high concentrations, hydrogen cyanide is absorbed
through the skin; therefore complete reliance cannot
be placed on a gas mask. After 1 hour exposure, 100
to 250 ppm of HCN are dangerous."

[from: Elkins, Hervey B. _The Chemistry of Toxicology_.
(New York: John Wiley and Sons Ltd.) 2nd (c) 1959, p 94.]

Now, cyanide will absorb through the skin, but the text
explicity mentions a one _hour_ exposure time. For absorption
through the skin to have been a real danger, the Sonderkommando
at Auschwitz would have to work in cyanide concentrations of
100 to 250 ppm or higher for an hour or more."

It's also worth noting that that is from exposure to the gas itself not second-hand exposure via handling exposed bodies. If it takes an hour for exposure to the gas before skin absorption is dangerous, then I'd think handling the bodies would require little more than washing your hands afterward.

[kageki]

It's also worth noting that that is from exposure to the gas itself not second-hand exposure via handling exposed bodies. If it takes an hour for exposure to the gas before skin absorption is dangerous, then I'd think handling the bodies would require little more than washing your hands afterward.

Well it's misleading since we're assuming the levels are that low. 300ppm is lethal. It also doesn't even seem to account for the gas released from the bodies which when combined would surely be much different. They seem to downplay the effects of HCN when all literature seems to say otherwise.

Also how long do you think body disposal would take?

[Cleon]

Well it's misleading

No, it's not.

It also doesn't even seem to account for the gas released from the bodies which when combined would surely be much different.

You must be under the (mistaken) impression that after exposure, the human body gives off cyanide gas like a popped balloon.


Also how long do you think body disposal would take?

Well, the actual procedure used for the body disposal is quite well-documented. You could actually read about it, y'know.

Nizkor link.

[Corsair 115]

Well the US embargoed oil shipments to Japan and was basically aiding China. From the perspective of Japan that is aiding the enemy. If Japan started aiding Iraq against the US, how would you take it? The ultimatum sent to Japan was a slap in the face.

The US was also engaging in covert warfare with Germany.

You people are not trying to be honest and trying to see all sides of the argument. I shouldn't have to provide "sources" about basic things like this in history. The British and the US were all around in Southeast Asia. Hong Kong? Opium Wars? You guys were messing around in that region first.You claimed that the Australians warned the U.S. that the Japanese fleet was heading to Pearl Harbor. I asked you to cite the source for that claim, and you never did. And in your reply above you still don't cite the source of your claim, but instead go off on a tangent.

Cite the source for your claim that Australia warned the U.S. about Pearl Harbor (in the Pearl Harbor thread of course) or admit that you were incorrect when you made the claim.

[SDC]

That Nizkor link is really interesting, SDC ;)

Credit to Gravy!

[Myriad]

Interesting game you're playing here, kageki. Can I play too?

The Hiroshima Hoax

Our school books tell us that hundreds of thousands of Japanese citizens, most of them civilians, were killed by U.S. atomic bomb attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. But does that claim stand up to close inspection? I will show that it does not. I will show that the claims of large numbers of atomic deaths are a deliberate hoax.

I'm not denying that Japanese civilians were killed in atomic bomb attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. But I don't believe the numbers were anywhere close to what the Japanese and their Nihonist dupes claim, for the purpose of gaining international sympathy they don't deserve.

The Bombs Were Newly Invented, Almost Entirely Untested Weapons

In order for the atomic bombs to have caused the numbers of casualties claimed, they would have had to work perfectly as designed. Yet of the two (distinctly different) bomb designs that were used, one had only been tested once and the other had never been tested at all.

How likely is it that any newly invented weapon, never before seen on the face of the earth, would work in the field on its very first use even after extensive testing, let alone after little or no testing? If someone designed a new aircraft based on an entirely new physical principle of flight that had not even been known a few years before, and built one plane, and flew it once, would you go for a ride in the second one? Suppose someone built a new kind of gun that had never once been fired. Would you want to carry it for self-defense? Of course not. Untested technically-complex systems are extremely unlikely to work properly on the first try.

It appears that the bombs did explode -- which is not surprising, because fission bombs are "triggered" by conventional explosives incorporated in the bomb, and conventional explosives were pretty well developed and reliable at the time. The question is whether actual fission explosions occurred, or delivered anywhere near their designed "yield" if they did. There is no evidence of that, and plenty of reason to doubt that two lucky perfect successes happened in the field the first time.

The observed mushroom clouds, by the way, are not evidence of an atomic explosion. Large explosions of any kind can produce mushroom-shaped clouds. That's just an ordinary effect of hot smoke rising from the explosion area and spreading out as it rises and cools.

Atomic Weapons Were Not A Military Threat To Japan

After the Nagasaki bomb "exploded," the U.S. had no more. It would have taken months to manufacture another, and months more for each one thereafter. At the pace of events in the War in the Pacific at that time, that would not have been enough to have much effect on the course of the war, even in the unlikely event that the bombs worked "as advertised." Their effects were too localized to be of much use in the miles-wide Pacific-island battlefields of that war. Much larger bombs were tested years later for their effects on U.S. soldiers with minimal protection at distances of a few miles, and the soliders survived unscathed. Atomic bombs could instead have been used against other arms manufacturing centers like they were at Hiroshima and Nagasaki, but conventional saturation bombing provided an equally effective and far more available means to that end.

We must conclude that actual miliatary use of the atomic bomb would have had little effect on the further course of the war, and that military planners on both sides were aware of this.

What, then, were the atomic bombs for?

The Hiroshima and Nagasaki Bombs Were Psychological Weapons

In the parlance of more recent times, the sole purpose of the atomic bombs was to "shock and awe" the Japanese military leadership into supporting surrender of a war they already knew they were using. It was to give them an "out," an excuse to give up on a lost cause. It's easier to surrended to a frightening, seemingly all-powerful new force whose existence couldn't have been planned for, than to admit that you were beaten by a stronger enemy.

Note that, as psychological weapons of little military value, the atomic bombs did not have to actually work very well, as long as everyone believed they were devastatingly powerful. Low-yield duds would be, and were, just as effective as the real thing, if a sufficient hoax could be generated around them.

The Japanese Government Was Fore-Warned Of the Attacks

Given that the purpose of the attacks was to shock and awe, it was necessary for the government to be notified in advance of the locations of the attacks, so they could witness it. It is inconceivable that the U.S. would want the attacks to be "secret" since their psychological effectiveness depended on the Imperial government being aware of them. All that would have been necessary to tip them off was to feed information about the "secret" attacks to known Japanese spies. Since the U.S. had broken many Japanese codes it's also likely that false coded messages (that is, true messages from false sources) were used.

It appears that the rogue Japanese government agents who started the fires intercepted the warnings, as no other action (such as to evacuate the population to safety) was taken. Or was it? As we'll see, the "official" government probably did take action -- but not the action that you or any civilized person would expect!

If The Bombs Were Ineffective, What Happened To The Cities?

Except in the immediate few hundred feed around the explosions, the cities were destroyed by fire.

There are many causes of fire, besides nuclear weapons. Most likely, the fires at Hiroshima and Nagasaki were started by the conventional explosives in the bombs.

Poor constructions and poor fire safety preparedness accounts for most of the rest.

However, there's another likely contributing factor: agents working for rogue elements in the Japanese government, who willfully contributed to the hoax in order to help end the war. All that would be needed is a few dozen people with fuel cans and matches, to start fires in the surrounding blocks. How hard is it to set a Japanese house on fire? (Hint: the walls are made of paper!) The resulting mass fires would help create the illusion that a super-powerful bomb had exploded.

We also cannot rule out the likely possibility that large stockpiles of armaments were accidentally detonated, or deliberately sabotaged, in either or both cities. This would account for additional blast damage beyond the expected blast radius of the main bomb.

Why So Many Casualties?

If the bombs had minimal effect, what accounts for all the alleged deaths?

Clearly, many deaths did occur from the conventional explosive blast, and from the fires started by the bombs and by the Japanese agents.

However, any additional deaths that occurred were from other causes. These attacks took place in wartime, after a prolonged war that the military-oriented Japanese were losing. This means that most food and supplies were being used to support the fighting troops, with the civilian population getting the bare minimum. So, many of the subsequent deaths would have been due to poor nutrition and disease, augmented by poor sanitation and other problems typical of displaced populations such as those whose homes were destroyed in the fires.

Also, we're told that many subsequent deaths were due to cancer. Since the Japanese eat raw fish, how do we know that the increase in cancer rates were not caused by pollution of fishing grounds during the course of the war, where intensive marine operations and ship sinkings released vast amounts of known carcingens into the sea?

Of course, exposure to nuclear radiation did account for some deaths. The bombs did use radioactive uranium and plutonium which, though it probably didn't add much to the explosion, did get spread around and caused some contamination. See the present-day estimates on the casualties that would be caused by a terrorist "dirty bomb" to get an idea of what effects would be expected. Certainly nowhere near tens of thousands of deaths.

It's also likely that the explosions, fires, and internal sabotage destroyed secret Japanese nuclear test labs, spreading radioactivity from those sources.

But most of the casulaties were due to the Japanese government, forewarned of the attacks, deliberately moving large numbers of civilians into the targeted areas, where they were killed by the explosions and fires. The reason for this is clear. Knowing that they were losing the war, the Japanese government wanted a cause for international sympathy in the coming post-war era, to offset the ill will against them caused by their previous war atrocities. How ironic, and how evil, that they succeeded in garnering this sympathy by means of one of the most vile and callous acts of the entire war, perpetrated on their own loyal citizens.

Please note, to avoid misunderstanding: the above text in blue is not the author's actual opinion. It's a demonstration of the deniers' techniques in action. Let's see if kageki appreciates my use of what he's taught me in this thread. Can he refute my claims? Does he want to continue the game, now that both sides can play?

[Drudgewire]

Interesting game you're playing here, kageki. Can I play too?
If the atomic bombs were a hoax how do you explain Godzilla, Mr. Smartyhead? http://www.lethalwrestling.com/upload/colbert.gif

[SpitfireIX]

Gas is absorbed through the skin so you need more then a gas mask. Because of this the prisoners would die trying to remove the bodies even with a gas mask.


No. The active ingredient in Zyklon-B is hydrogen cyanide (HCN). As noted by Pardalis, skin exposure is far from immediately fatal.

From a Material Safety Data Sheet on HCN (http://www.scottecatalog.com/msds.nsf/0/17a5da31bf1cc46385256a0a004e2e50?OpenDocument):

3. HAZARD INDENTIFICATION

* * * EMERGENCY OVERVIEW * * *
Poisonous, flammable liquid and vapor.
May be fatal if inhaled.
Can cause irritation to eyes, skin, and respiratory tract.
Symptoms of exposure may be delayed.
Can form explosive mixtures with air.


ROUTES OF ENTRY: Inhalation , Ingestion


4. FIRST AID MEASURES

INHALATION: Immediately remove victim to fresh air. If breathing has stopped, give artificial respiration. If breathing is difficult, give oxygen.

EYE CONTACT: Immediately flush with copious amounts of water for at least 15 minutes.

SKIN CONTACT: Immediately flush with copious amounts of water for at least 15 minutes while removing contaminated clothing.

<snip>

SPECIAL FIRE FIGHTING INSTRUCTION AND EQUIPMENT: Wear self-contained breathing apparatus and full protective clothing. Keep fire exposed cylinders cool with water spray. If possible, stop the product flow.

HAZARDOUS COMBUSTION PRODUCTS: Toxic carbon monoxide may be given off during combustion.

UNUSUAL FIRE AND EXPLOSION HAZARDS: Severe when exposed to heat or flame. Extremely flammable.

6. ACCIDENTAL RELEASE MEASURES

CLEAN UP PROCEDURES: Remove leaking cylinder to exhaust hood or safe outdoor area if this can be done safely. Remove leaking cylinder to exhaust hood or safe outdoor area. Liquid spills should be diked or flushed with water spray.

SPECIALIZED EQUIPMENT: None

7. HANDLING AND STORAGE

PRECAUTIONS TO BE TAKEN IN HANDLING: Secure cylinder when using to protect from falling. Use suitable hand truck to move cylinders. Use only in a well-ventilated area.

PRECAUTIONS TO BE TAKEN IN STORAGE: Store in well ventilated areas. Keep valve protection cap on cylinders when not in use. Store away from heat, flame, and sparks.

8. EXPOSURE CONTROLS / PERSONAL PROTECTION

ENGINEERING CONTROLS: Provide adequate general and local exhaust ventilation to maintain concentration below exposure limits.

EYE / FACE PROTECTION: Face shield and Safety glasses . A safety shower and eyewash station should be readily available.

SKIN PROTECTION: Protective gloves.

RESPIRATORY PROTECTION: Use a self-contained breathing apparatus in case of emergency or non-routine use.

OTHER PROTECTIVE EQUIPMENT: Safety shoes when handling cylinders.



What about Wolfgang Froelich?


From a neo-Nazi web page (http://christianparty.net/zyklonb.htm):

Froelich is an Austrian engineer and an expert witness whose field of
expertise are process engineering and gas applications. He told the
court he has carried out numerous gassings to exterminate pests and
infectious microbes. Here is how he answers the questions by public
prosecutor Aufdenblatten:

Aufdenblatten: "In your opinion were mass gassings with Zyklon B
possible?"

Froelich: "No".

Aufdenblatten: "Why not?"

Froelich: "The pesticide Zyklon B is hydrocyanic acid absorbed in a
granular-shaped carrier substance. It is released though contact with
the air. The evaporation point of hydrocyanic acid is 25.7 degrees
(Celsius). The higher the temperature, the more rapid is the rate of
evaporation. The delousing chambers in which Zyklon B was used in NS
(German wartime) camps and elsewhere were heated to 30 degrees and
higher, so that the hydrocyanic acid would be released rapidly from the
carrier granules. However, in the half-underground mortuaries of the
Auschwitz-Birkenau crematories, where witnesses claim that mass killings
with Zyklon B took place, the temperatures were much lower. Even if one
allows for the warming of the spaces by the body warmth of the
hypothetical prisoners, the temperature would not have been more than 15
degrees, even in summer time. Consequently, it would have taken many
hours for the hydrocyanic acid to evaporate.

"According to eyewitness reports, the victims died very quickly. The
witnesses mention time frames of 'instantaneous' to '15 minutes'. To be
able to kill the gas chamber prisoners in such a short time, the Germans
would have had to use ridiculously large amounts of Zyklon -- I estimate
from 40 to 50 kilograms for each gassing. This would have made any work
in the gas chamber fundamentally impossible. The special detachment
(Sonderkommando) people, whom the witnesses say were assigned the task
of clearing out (dead bodies) from them (the gas chambers), would have
collapsed immediately upon entering the rooms, even if they were wearing
gas masks. Enormous amounts of hydrocyanic acid would have streamed out
into the open, and would have poisoned the entire camp". [bolding added]


What Froelich's exact expertise is is unclear; but he likely made one of the same mistakes Leuchter did: the concentration of HCN required to kill insects is roughly 16,000 parts per million (ppm). The concentration required to kill humans by inhalation is around 300 ppm. Further, 25.7C is the boiling point of HCN; not its "evaporation point," which is a meaningless term. This could be a translation error; however, anyone with any true expertise should know that all liquids evaporate, and their rates of evaporation are greater as they approach their boiling points.

However, this is all moot, as the gas chambers were heated, as shown by the following letter (http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/auschwitz/cyanide/hcn-spurious-claims):

Letter from SS-Sturmbannfuehrer Jahrling to Topf & Sons, March 6
1943 [Pressac, p. 221]
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: KL Auschwitz Krematorien II and III

In accordance with your suggestion, the service agrees that cellar 1
should be preheated with the air coming from the rooms of the 3
forced draught installations. The supply and installation of the
ductwork and blowers necessary to this end are to be effected as soon
as possible. As you point out in your above-mentiond letter,
execution should commence this week. We would ask you to send in
triplicate detailed quote for supply and installation.

At the same time, we would ask you to send an additional quotation
for the modification of the air-extraction installation in the
undressing room.

In short, Froelich may be an expert on using HCN to kill pests; however, he clearly failed to do any research on the actual operation of the gas chambers at Auschwitz.

[Bell]

If the atomic bombs were a hoax how do you explain Godzilla, Mr. Smartyhead? http://www.lethalwrestling.com/upload/colbert.gif

Shill!

Never before or after in history have two atomic bombs, in the span of three days, destroyed two whole cities.

[Corsair 115]

If the atomic bombs were a hoax how do you explain Godzilla, Mr. Smartyhead? There was no Godzilla, it was just an elaborate hologram special effect!

[Drudgewire]

There was no Godzilla, it was just an elaborate hologram special effect!
Just the one that attacked New York, and EVERYONE knows that blasphemy wasn't a real Godzilla.

[ktesibios]

By a curious coincidence, I happened to be browsing the Holocaust History Project (http://www.holocaust-history.org) site a couple of days ago and read some work that has a bearing on our Nazi apologist's claims.

First, a chemical analysis of spent Zyklon B pellets from Auschwitz, to determine which of the varying substrates used in making Zyklon was used in the poison supplied to the camp:

http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/zyklonb/

Next, an essay by Richard J. Green Ph.D, Chemistry is not the Science (http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/chemistry/not-the-science/), which examines the claims made by Germar Rudolf (who appears, judging by the claims he is making, one of Kageki's "experts"). Using Rudolf's own assertions about the outgassing of Zyklon B and the capabilities of the gas chamber ventilation systems, Dr. Green demonstrates that producing a very lethal concentration of HCN in a time consistent with witness reports about the gassings is practical and that the ventilators could reduce the concentration to one which would be safe for the sonderkommando to enter and work even without gas masks in no more than 30-40 minutes (in fact, levels which would satisfy OSHA regulations could be achieved in a similar time-frame).

This essay also includes a plot of the vapor pressure of HCN versus temperature which shows that even at temperatures where HCN is a solid, its vapor pressure is orders of magnitude higher than the 300 ppm (V/V) needed to kill human beings, which neatly disposes of the argument that it has to be above its boiling point to work- apparently, sublimation would do just fine.

This pdf (http://www.holocaust-history.org/irving-david/rudolf/affweb.pdf) is an updated version submitted as an expert report to the court which was considering David Irving's appeal against the judgment against him in the Lipstadt trial.

Just schon zu fressen for our Nazi apologist.

[yodaluver28]

There was no Godzilla, it was just an elaborate hologram special effect!

Now, where does that leave Mothra?

[Drudgewire]

Now, where does that leave Mothra?
Monster Island ("Yamato") is where all the wannabe's come from (although Ghidorah might be from space now that I think about it). :teacher:

[gtc]

Because it doesn't answer the question whether Jews were really burned alive in ovens or not. Besides many were probably tortured by the Allied.

Do you have any evidence for the claim that many were probably tortured by the Allies.


The trucks however may seem possible, but the feasibility of it is also disputed.

Why is it not feasible to kill people using exhaust fumes? Quite a few Japanese people

If you don't crush the bones they remain after cremation.

Please provide some evidence for this statement.

Even my mother who grew up in Japan associate the Holocaust with the ovens.

Sadly, your mother was misinformed. What does she think about your attitude towards Jews and the Holocaust?

So what do you think then? Hitler just made up those excuses because he just wanted to kill Jews for no reason at all?

A decent biography of Hitler will teach you all you need to know about Hitlerr's motives in targetting the Jews. I am sure another poster can suggest one.

[SpitfireIX]

By a curious coincidence, I happened to be browsing the Holocaust History Project (http://www.holocaust-history.org) site a couple of days ago and read some work that has a bearing on our Nazi apologist's claims. . . .


I wish you'd posted this earlier in the day; it would have saved me a lot of Googling. :p

Seriously, though, thanks--this is a great anti-denier resource.

[stateofgrace]

Having seen this thread unfold and holding my tongue for some time I would like to post an email I received today. I will be forwarding this message to all my friends and they as civilised human beings will in all probability forward it on.

Freedom of speech is a two way event as far as I am concerned and as such I express in no uncertain terms my utter rejection of the holocaust deniers and equally so, having read the utter drivel they have written to justify their twisted and bitter version of historic events reject their arguments totally.

Here is the email.


It is a matter of history that when Supreme Commander of the Allied Forces, General Dwight Eisenhower, found the victims of the death camps he ordered all possible photographs to be taken, and for the German people from surrounding villages to be ushered through the camps and even made to bury the dead.


He did this because he said in words to this effect: 'Get it all on record now - get the films - get the witnesses - because somewhere down the track of history some bastard will get up and say that this never happened'


All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.
Edmund Burke

In Memorial


This week, the UK removed The Holocaust from its school curriculum because
it 'offended' the Muslim population which claims it never occurred.


This is a frightening portent of the fear that is gripping the world and how easily each country is giving into it.



It is now more than 60 years after the Second World War in Europe ended.



This e-mail is being sent as a memorial chain, in memory of the


six million Jews,



20 million Russians,



10 million Christians




and 1,900 Catholic priests



who were murdered, massacred, raped, burned, starved and humiliated


while the German and Russia peoples looked the other way!


Now, more than ever, with Iran, among others, claiming the Holocaust to be 'a myth,' it is imperative to make sure the world never forgets.


This e-mail is intended to reach 40 million people worldwide!Be a link in the memorial chain and help distribute this around the world.Don't just delete this. It will take a minute to pass this along.




Please forward it.

[Cleon]

Please do not forward that email. It is complete BS (http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/holocaust.asp). (Not quite as fraudulent as denier "research," but bogus nonetheless.)

[twinstead]

I love snopes

[SpitfireIX]

Having seen this thread unfold and holding my tongue for some time I would like to post an email I received today. I will be forwarding this message to all my friends and they as civilised human beings will in all probability forward it on.

Freedom of speech is a two way event as far as I am concerned and as such I express in no uncertain terms my utter rejection of the holocaust deniers and equally so, having read the utter drivel they have written to justify their twisted and bitter version of historic events reject their arguments totally.

Here is the email.



Please forward it.


Although your comments and the quote from Eisenhower are extremely apropos for this thread, the email is grossly exaggerated. This only happened in one city in the United Kingdom. Here is the link to snopes.com's page (http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/holocaust.asp) on the subject. Snopes mentions that one mutation misinterprets "UK" as "University of Kentucky." :rolleyes:

ETA: Cleon beat me to it, though I don't entirely agree with the "complete BS" comment.

[stateofgrace]

Please do not forward that email. It is complete BS (http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/holocaust.asp). (Not quite as fraudulent as denier "research," but bogus nonetheless.)

I stand corrected. Bogus is bogus, it is clear this email is BS and as such it will not be forwarded.

This is what I like about this forum, if it is BS, then it needs to be stated, thanks for pointing it out.

Stateofgrace

[Cleon]

A
ETA: Cleon beat me to it, though I don't entirely agree with the "complete BS" comment.

I will justify it:

We can agree that the basic claim is not true--the UK did not change their curriculum, it was one department in one city that made a bad decision.

At this point, yes, we could simply call it an "exaggeration." However, the reason I call it "complete BS," and the reason that it gets me irritated, is because the email tries to blame the Muslim community for the removal. It claims that the subject was removed "because it 'offended' the Muslim population which claims it never occurred." This is simply not true--the administration removed it because they were afraid there might be such sentiment among some of the Muslim students and didn't want to cause a conflict. The administrators dropped it out of cowardice, not out of cow-towing to an intolerant Muslim community, and it is complete BS to try and blame this on the Muslim community. To say nothing of the claim that the "Muslim population" as a whole says it never happened.

The point of the email is fear-mongering about the growing Muslim population in some parts of the world. It is, in my opinion, nothing more than simple bigotry--the same type of bigotry that drives Holocaust denial, only aimed at a different group.

That's all I have to say on the subject, as going further would be a derail. I'd be happy to discuss it further via PM or another thread.

[SpitfireIX]

I will justify it:

We can agree that the basic claim is not true--the UK did not change their curriculum, it was one department in one city that made a bad decision.

At this point, yes, we could simply call it an "exaggeration." However, the reason I call it "complete BS," and the reason that it gets me irritated, is because the email tries to blame the Muslim community for the removal. It claims that the subject was removed "because it 'offended' the Muslim population which claims it never occurred." This is simply not true--the administration removed it because they were afraid there might be such sentiment among some of the Muslim students and didn't want to cause a conflict. The administrators dropped it out of cowardice, not out of cow-towing to an intolerant Muslim community, and it is complete BS to try and blame this on the Muslim community. To say nothing of the claim that the "Muslim population" as a whole says it never happened.

The point of the email is fear-mongering about the growing Muslim population in some parts of the world. It is, in my opinion, nothing more than simple bigotry--the same type of bigotry that drives Holocaust denial, only aimed at a different group.

That's all I have to say on the subject, as going further would be a derail. I'd be happy to discuss it further via PM or another thread.




No need. After reading your argument and carefully re-reading the email and Snopes' commentary, I agree with you. You've convinced me. It's complete BS. :mad:

[MaGZ]

I doubt that many here, except a few hared-core racists would disagree with the position that the extermination of some native tribes and their removal from their lands was an atrocity. Hopefully, we are moving beyond justifying it on the grounds of Manifest Destiny. I would hope that we at least learned that much from WWII.

Some people here, however, are immune to such education.

White America was built upon Manifest Destiny.

[MaGZ]

http://www.nizkor.org/

66 Questions & Answers About the Holocaust (http://www.nizkor.org/features/qar/)

This is the third time that I've linked to Nizkor for your benefit. Specifically what do they get wrong? Back your claims with equal or superior evidence to that used by Nizkor.

Fair enough, kageki?

Background on Nizkor
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nizkor_Project

[kageki]

Having seen this thread unfold and holding my tongue for some time I would like to post an email I received today. I will be forwarding this message to all my friends and they as civilised human beings will in all probability forward it on.

Freedom of speech is a two way event as far as I am concerned and as such I express in no uncertain terms my utter rejection of the holocaust deniers and equally so, having read the utter drivel they have written to justify their twisted and bitter version of historic events reject their arguments totally.

Here is the email.



Please forward it.

Maybe they should also honor the 40 million Native Americans that was massacred by Europeans in the creation of the US since they happened to choose that number.

Funny how many people have questioned my statement of 40 million Native Americans dead. Where is your disgust for the deniers of the genocide in the US?

[MaGZ]

If we're playing the numbers game then it seems like the targeted genocide of about 40 million Native Americans due to the Europeans in about 100 years is much more serious then the Holocaust.

If anything I think these other Holocausts seem too insignificant in comparison.

What does it matter if you think the spread of disease was intentional? Are you trying to diminish how Columbus slaughtered millions, possibly made an entire race of Native Americans extinct and hunted them down for dog food? The Spaniards fed chopped up Native Americans to their dogs and cut limbs off to test the sharpness of their swords. These apparently happened also. I fail to see how this is different from what the Nazis did.


But I still like to know. Was it 6 million for the Holocaust? Did the Nazis really burn Jews alive in ovens? Why are people only jailed for questioning the JEWISH Holocaust? What is fiction and fact?

Kageki, you are exaggerating the number of Indians that died out in North America after Europeans arrived. There were never tens of millions of Indians in the Americas. Look at the population numbers in Europe at the time and compare them.

In addition Blacks have played the Holocaust numbers game claiming they lost millions in the slave trade. Apparently there are benefits in being the victim.

[MaGZ]

I had hoped, about the middle of the 20th Century, that we would, as a nation, come to grips with the fact that we were living on stolen land and realize that it was wrong. That is the first step toward putting a stop to that sort of behavior elsewhere, forever.

Bush is still playing Cowboys and Indians in Iraq. We have Nazi sympathizers and apologists posting here.

Human evolution is a very drawn-out process, with uneven results, I guess.

Do you consider the founding fathers of America to have been proto-Nazis?

[kageki]

Interesting game you're playing here, kageki. Can I play too?

Please note, to avoid misunderstanding: the above text in blue is not the author's actual opinion. It's a demonstration of the deniers' techniques in action. Let's see if kageki appreciates my use of what he's taught me in this thread. Can he refute my claims? Does he want to continue the game, now that both sides can play?

First of all this thread is about the Holocaust so please stay on topic.

Second of all I don't have a fit if you like to discuss the specifics of the bomb. If it is true some exaggerations were made then I'll believe it.

So the bomb was a hoax? Ok you got me.

[kageki]

Kageki, you are exaggerating the number of Indians that died out in North America after Europeans arrived. There were never tens of millions of Indians in the Americas. Look at the population numbers in Europe at the time and compare them.

In addition Blacks have played the Holocaust numbers game claiming they lost millions in the slave trade. Apparently there are benefits in being the victim.

I'm not the one exaggerating. Other historians are saying this. Why don't you go look it up? How do you back up your claims? What does the population in Europe have any relevance?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_history_of_American_indigenous_peoples

The difference between Native Americans and Blacks is that their history has been suppressed while the Holocaust has been flaunted and exaggerated. Yes there are real benefits of being victims. How many billions has Israel received in reparations?

MaGZ I would have hoped that you could be more honest about this past in the US. It seems though everyone else here are deniers of US history.

[Slayhamlet]

Maybe they should also honor the 40 million Native Americans that was massacred by Europeans in the creation of the US since they happened to choose that number.

Funny how many people have questioned my statement of 40 million Native Americans dead. Where is your disgust for the deniers of the genocide in the US?

First of all this thread is about the Holocaust so please stay on topic. ...snip...

Hilarious.

[Cleon]

Well, this is going to be entertaining... :popcorn1

[mortimer]

White America was built upon Manifest Destiny.

White America? Is that, like, Minnesota or Montana or something?

There is no White America.

[Slayhamlet]

Maybe they should also honor the 40 million Native Americans that was massacred by Europeans in the creation of the US since they happened to choose that number.

Funny how many people have questioned my statement of 40 million Native Americans dead. Where is your disgust for the deniers of the genocide in the US?

No doubt there were numerous genocides committed by Europeans against Amerindians since the colonization of the Americas began. Where are you getting the 40 million number, and how does it relate specifically to the creation of the United States?

[Sabrina]

And why are you completely ignoring the fact that the genocide of the Amerindians occurred well before the US became a country and also occurred in the territories of numerous other countries BESIDES Britain's?

[Myriad]

First of all this thread is about the Holocaust so please stay on topic.


It's been well established that the topic includes discussions of other events for comparison purposes, such as the decline of the Native American population you yourself brought up (again) a few posts ago. So, thanks for the reminder but I'm completely on topic.

Second of all I don't have a fit if you like to discuss the specifics of the bomb. If it is true some exaggerations were made then I'll believe it.

So the bomb was a hoax? Ok you got me.


So, you're apparently willing to believe anything anyone tells you if it's convenient to do so. That explains a lot.

Respectfully,
Myriad

[Slayhamlet]

And why are you completely ignoring the fact that the genocide of the Amerindians occurred well before the US became a country and also occurred in the territories of numerous other countries BESIDES Britain's?

There were genocides committed against North American Indians during Western Expansion which can be squarely blamed on the United States. They most certainly did not include anywhere near 40 million deaths, though.

[Sabrina]

There were genocides committed against North American Indians during Western Expansion which can be squarely blamed on the United States. They most certainly did not include anywhere near 40 million deaths, though.

True. However, kageki has mentioned numerous times the atrocities Columbus perpetrated against Amerindians, and he was affiliated with Spain! I assumed, perhaps partially erroneously, that he meant only the deaths that occurred during the intial colonization of the North American continent. I would be happy to retract my statement if that is not the case.

[MaGZ]

Say, did any of the resident Holocaust deniers ever answer my question about if the Holocaust didn't happen does that make the Nazis a swell bunch who were just misunderstood?

A lot of lies have been told about Hitler and the Third Reich. I’m sure most will agree with me on this point.

[Cleon]

A lot of lies have been told about Hitler and the Third Reich. I’m sure most will agree with me on this point.

Absolutely. Mostly by people like you.

[MaGZ]

Oh, BTW, I take it that those of you who think Poland provoked Hitler are entirely cool with the invasion and occupation of Iraq, right?

I see the invasion of Iraq as a Zionist war for the Jews. Ditto for the coming war with Iran.

[kageki]

True. However, kageki has mentioned numerous times the atrocities Columbus perpetrated against Amerindians, and he was affiliated with Spain! I assumed, perhaps partially erroneously, that he meant only the deaths that occurred during the intial colonization of the North American continent. I would be happy to retract my statement if that is not the case.

All I hear is pathetic attempts at denial.

As you all white Americans are aware. You are a conglomeration of European races. So saying Columbus was Spanish is just denial. Isn't Columbus considered the one who discovered America to whom we still celebrate his holiday hence marking the beginning of America?

The 40 million if anyone cares to look it up for themselves is apparently what happened between 1492-1650. So sure if "only" 40 million murdered in the initial stages makes you feel better then go right ahead.

[SpitfireIX]

Absolutely. Mostly by people like you.


:dl: :dl:

[pomeroo]

Maybe they should also honor the 40 million Native Americans that was massacred by Europeans in the creation of the US since they happened to choose that number.

Funny how many people have questioned my statement of 40 million Native Americans dead. Where is your disgust for the deniers of the genocide in the US?


Possibly people question your statement because the guesstimate of forty million Native Americans dead is impossibly high. Who fabricated that figure--Howard Zinn?

[MaGZ]

Look who is to speak at the Oxford Union. Isn't that a turn up for the books?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/oxfordshire/7111933.stm

What a coincidence. I have met both of them.

[Pardalis]

The more you speak to them, the more they will respond...

[technoextreme]

Isn't Columbus considered the one who discovered America

Not really.
ySiE34Stt3EThe 40 million if anyone cares to look it up for themselves is apparently what happened between 1492-1650. So sure if "only" 40 million murdered in the initial stages makes you feel better then go right ahead.
Why did you change the number? You were at one point claiming 100 million which was a completely bogus number.

[SpitfireIX]

All I hear is pathetic attempts at denial.

As you all white Americans are aware. You are a conglomeration of European races. So saying Columbus was Spanish is just denial. Isn't Columbus considered the one who discovered America to whom we still celebrate his holiday hence marking the beginning of America?

The 40 million if anyone cares to look it up for themselves is apparently what happened between 1492-1650. So sure if "only" 40 million murdered in the initial stages makes you feel better then go right ahead.


As the article you linked pointed out, there is no evidence that the Europeans intentionally spread disease among the native population, so why do you keep referring to this as "murder" and "genocide?"

Also, just for the record, I'm 1/32 Shawnee; and I have a very close friend who's 1/2 Cherokee. And her two children, who are the closest I have to having children of my own, are 1/4 Cherokee plus some indeterminate fraction of Blackfoot. So I say, with some authority, that your genocide claim is a crock.

[JEROME DA GNOME]

White America was built upon Manifest Destiny.

America looks green from this angle. I do live on the East coast, maybe out west it looks more tan?

[technoextreme]

As the article you linked pointed out, there is no evidence that the Europeans intentionally spread disease among the native population, so why do you keep referring to this as "murder" and "genocide?"

Wow. After spending five minutes reading Wikipedia I realized that it's a bunch of bull. I had no idea. I could have sworn it was true but it apparently is a more murky issue.
PS: Why the hell do people even make this crap up? The information I found was related to the loonbat Ward Churchill and the fact that his research on this issue was a complete and utter fabrication. Not only that be he responded to his critics with ad hominen attacks.

[MaGZ]

What? Nazis did kill millions. No one is denying that so there is no hypocrisy.

What is being specifically disputed is whether they had "industrialized" killing factories or that 6 million Jews really died. Were they really extermination camps or was it just labor camps?

I'm starting to think that was all made up. They were probably decent camps too.

I am denying that. People died on both sides of WW II but that was warfare. I totally reject the notion of any plan extermination of any population.

Except for the Jewish plan to exterminate Germany.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany_Must_Perish!

[Myriad]

A lot of lies have been told about Hitler and the Third Reich. I’m sure most will agree with me on this point.

Absolutely. Mostly by people like you.


Well, there were also quite a few lies Hitler and the Reich told about themselves.

Respectfully,
Myriad

[JEROME DA GNOME]

A lot of lies have been told about Hitler and the Third Reich. I’m sure most will agree with me on this point.

Lampshades and soap?

The nature of history is for those that win war to exaggerate the atrocities of the vanquished and exemplify the heroics of the victors.

[Redtail]

I am denying that. People died on both sides of WW II but that was warfare. I totally reject the notion of any plan extermination of any population.

Except for the Jewish plan to exterminate Germany.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany_Must_Perish!

And yet "The Turner Diaries" are great?:rolleyes:

[technoextreme]

Lampshades and soap?

The nature of history is for those that win war to exaggerate the atrocities of the vanquished and exemplify the heroics of the victors.
Not really. The nature of history is to just make crap up no matter which side won. Obviously using your woo woo waa waa logic the Indian Blankets myth shouldn't have never started. It looks like it's utter bumpkis and yet it is heavily perpetuated.
I am denying that. People died on both sides of WW II but that was warfare. I totally reject the notion of any plan extermination of any population.

Except for the Jewish plan to exterminate Germany.
Hahahahh... The irony is that Germany was all ready exterminating people at that point. Stop blinly posting stuff that actually refutes your argument. You be smarter for it.

[JEROME DA GNOME]

Not really.
ySiE34Stt3E

That was great!

Videos of white people (PC: people of European descent) dancing are always funny.

:D

[MaGZ]

My decision is not final off course, but that is my inclination based on analysis.

What lie? That the Holocaust never happened?

http://www.adelaideinstitute.org/Auschwitz/truth.htm

The testimonies admit the Nazi doctors helped elders. Why would they have orchestras and swimming pools just to kill them? It's stated inmates had access to them.

The camps were labor camps and the administration wanted to keep the prisoners happy.

Haven’t you ever heard of the tune "Whistle while you work"?

[technoextreme]

That was great!

Videos of white people (PC: people of European descent) dancing are always funny.

:D
Ok after doing some research. Im officially weirded out. The United Sates actually acknowledges that Leif Erikson was the first person to travel to North American and not Columbus.
The camps were labor camps and the administration wanted to keep the prisoners happy.

Haven’t you ever heard of the tune "Whistle while you work"?

Sarcasm? Serious? I can't tell.

[Radrook]

If the Holocaust never happened, then why did those accused of cooperating, organizing, and carrying out the genocide not use that defense at the Nuremberg trials? When presented with the evidence they just said they were obeying orders.

[JEROME DA GNOME]

Not really. The nature of history is to just make crap up no matter which side won. Obviously using your woo woo waa waa logic the Indian Blankets myth shouldn't have never started. It looks like it's utter bumpkis and yet it is heavily perpetuated.

You have extrapolated what I said and created a lie with your extrapolation.

Based on this I shall from here on out refer to you as lier.

[Pardalis]

As the article you linked pointed out, there is no evidence that the Europeans intentionally spread disease among the native population, so why do you keep referring to this as "murder" and "genocide?"

Although it is still being disputed if it was intentional or not, there seemed to be one case of biological warfare.

http://www.nativeweb.org/pages/legal/amherst/lord_jeff.html

[gtc]

You have extrapolated what I said and created a lie with your extrapolated.

Based on this I shall from here on out refer to you as lier.

What is a 'lier'?

[JEROME DA GNOME]

What is a 'lier'?

I have stated many times: I can not speel.:)

[kageki]

I am denying that. People died on both sides of WW II but that was warfare. I totally reject the notion of any plan extermination of any population.

Except for the Jewish plan to exterminate Germany.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany_Must_Perish!

How do you explain Generalplan Ost?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalplan_Ost

Goes back even further too except it's "anti-semitism".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Jews_and_Their_Lies


I'm also wondering about the gas chambers and "extermination" camps.

[MaGZ]

Those were the early days of gassing, though by the end of 1941 probably a couple of million had been killed in other ways. (Ask Nick Terry for details.) They were experimenting with trucks and carbon monoxide. Not efficient or effective enough.

I consider this to be more propaganda on the level of Sadam’s mobile bio-weapons labs traveling the countryside.

Isn’t it incredibly inefficient to burn fuels for carbon monoxide Jew killing machines when you need these fuels to win the war and to supply the military?
It never happened.

[Slayhamlet]

Lampshades and soap?

The nature of history is for those that win war to exaggerate the atrocities of the vanquished and exemplify the heroics of the victors.

What exactly do you deny about the current historical consensus about the Holocaust? That it happened at all? That it was so bad? That the Jews were specifically targeted? That they were killed systematically? That the number of Jewish deaths is as high as 6 million? I know you're not a deranged neo-Nazi like MaGZ or a dumb kid pushing nonsense to further a nationalist ideology like Kageki, so I'm genuinely curious. Also, who do you consider reliable amongst the self-styled scholars and historians who deny the Holocaust? Or do you just not trust any historians at all?

The "Jewish soap" thing is known to be a legend, and is recognized as such by nearly all contemporary historians of the Holocaust, so it is not a very good example of something that is wrong with our understanding of it.

[JEROME DA GNOME]

I consider this to be more propaganda on the level of Sadam’s mobile bio-weapons labs traveling the countryside.

I saw it on T.V. It was true!!!

http://www.earthisland.org/the-edge/BioWeaponsTruck.jpg

[Sword_Of_Truth]

A lot of lies have been told about Hitler and the Third Reich. I’m sure most will agree with me on this point.

Most of them told by you and your friends.

Background on Nizkor
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nizkor_Project

It's run by a former United States Marine and a recipient of the Order of British Columbia?

Thanks for giving us the heads up on this shady character. :p

[kageki]

Possibly people question your statement because the guesstimate of forty million Native Americans dead is impossibly high. Who fabricated that figure--Howard Zinn?

You know this is something I found out literally last week on the radio from a caller who was a Native American. I'm shocked just as you are, but it's apparently the truth.

I have linked to the wiki page couple times.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_history_of_American_indigenous_peoples

I suggest you all try to determine yourself whether I'm wrong or not. It would behoove us all to understand what truly happened. Maybe we'll see how deplorable it is that Disney makes a romantic Pocahantas movie.

[Slayhamlet]

If the Holocaust never happened, then why did those accused of cooperating, organizing, and carrying out the genocide not use that defense at the Nuremberg trials? When presented with the evidence they just said they were obeying orders.

Indeed. Did any of the Nazi defendants even try to claim that there was no conscious effort to exterminate the Jews? If I remember correctly most used the "just following orders" defense.

[Pardalis]

The "Jewish soap" thing is known to be a legend, and is recognized as such by nearly all contemporary historians of the Holocaust, so it is not a very good example of something that is wrong with our understanding of it.

It's the denialist's tactic to focus on the few known myths to try to discredit the entire body of evidence that proves the Holocaust.

[MaGZ]

Absolutely. By not letting them through in debates and always denying them participation in the media they'll just score "martyr points".
Holocaust-deniers will always be totally obliterated in an open debate concerning the holocaust. In fact, as I see it, that's one of the most effective ways to kill conspiracies and myths in general - invite them and smash them with facts in front of everyone.
Conclusion: insane theories survive much more easier when not put to the test.

In Sweden, our former prime minister Göran Persson (some of you guys might know of him) decided to give out some public information literature on the holocaust. So a booklet packed with pictures and facts was released in 1998. Roughly translated "Of this we most tell... (the future generations)". It was free and every Swedish citizen could get a copy if he wanted to. The project was ofcourse financed with tax money.
I think that was a great initiative from Persson, and I'm proud that he did that. For the sake of securing knowledge about the WW2 and the massmurders.

I would like to see a Holocaust debate televised on C-SPAN featuring David Irving or Mark Weber. The Holocaust skeptics would win because they would get the audience thinking.

[Pardalis]

You know this is something I found out literally last week on the radio from a caller who was a Native American. I'm shocked just as you are, but it's apparently the truth.

I have linked to the wiki page couple times.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_history_of_American_indigenous_peoples

I suggest you all try to determine yourself whether I'm wrong or not. It would behoove us all to understand what truly happened. Maybe we'll see how deplorable it is that Disney makes a romantic Pocahantas movie.

Whatever happened to the Native people in America, as horrible as it may be, it still doesn't excuse the deliberate and systematic policy of ethnic cleansing of the Jews by the Nazis.

[MaGZ]

In Between his posts in this thread,and his thread "proving" that Pearl Harbor was a LIHOP Inside Job, I think we can safely assume that Kasegi is a apologists and defender of the Far Right in Politics.

His positions sound a bit leftist to me when he claims there was an American Indian Holocaust caused by the White Man.

Maybe he is a follower of Lyndon LaRouche

[kageki]

I consider this to be more propaganda on the level of Sadam’s mobile bio-weapons labs traveling the countryside.

Isn’t it incredibly inefficient to burn fuels for carbon monoxide Jew killing machines when you need these fuels to win the war and to supply the military?
It never happened.

The Sadam reference is a great analogy and this truck issue seems to serve as a perfect illustration of possible lies about the Nazis. I also imagine it takes quite amount of carbon monoxide to kill someone?

I'm just relieved to know that no Jews were burned alive in ovens.

[MaGZ]

How little you seem to know, and from that, how much you can lie and hate, it is so nice not to be you.

Paul

:) :) :)

The KKK wants you.

Right,
The KamiKaze Klan

[kageki]

What exactly do you deny about the current historical consensus about the Holocaust? That it happened at all? That it was so bad? That the Jews were specifically targeted? That they were killed systematically? That the number of Jewish deaths is as high as 6 million? I know you're not a deranged neo-Nazi like MaGZ or a dumb kid pushing nonsense to further a nationalist ideology like Kageki, so I'm genuinely curious. Also, who do you consider reliable amongst the self-styled scholars and historians who deny the Holocaust? Or do you just not trust any historians at all?

The "Jewish soap" thing is known to be a legend, and is recognized as such by nearly all contemporary historians of the Holocaust, so it is not a very good example of something that is wrong with our understanding of it.

Yes basically all what you say is being questioned.

You can add burning Jews alive in ovens to that legend. Kind of amazing to me such a hoax about soap and lampshades could have been hatched in the first place :rolleyes: I hope no one still believes in such a lie told about what Nazis did.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Goes back even further too except it's "anti-semitism".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Jews_and_Their_Lies

"In On the Jews and Their Lies, written in 1543 three years before his death, Luther recommends that Jews be deprived of money, civil rights, religious teaching, and education, and that they be forced to labor on the land, or else be expelled from Germany and possibly killed."

Your using a book written 400 years before the Holocaust yet reccomends mass murdering jews as proof the Holocaust didn't happen?

From anyone else, this would be a new "personal best" for nonsensical gibberish.

[JEROME DA GNOME]

What exactly do you deny about the current historical consensus about the Holocaust? That it happened at all? That it was so bad? That the Jews were specifically targeted? That they were killed systematically? That the number of Jewish deaths is as high as 6 million? I know you're not a deranged neo-Nazi like MaGZ or a dumb kid pushing nonsense to further a nationalist ideology like Kageki, so I'm genuinely curious. Also, who do you consider reliable amongst the self-styled scholars and historians who deny the Holocaust? Or do you just not trust any historians at all?

The "Jewish soap" thing is known to be a legend, and is recognized as such by nearly all contemporary historians of the Holocaust, so it is not a very good example of something that is wrong with our understanding of it.

Well, I use the soap and lampshade example to show how urban legend becomes; at times, common indisputable knowledge. Go back 25? years and you would find that if one denied the soap and lampshade stories one would be denounced. ( I still hear it from time to time.)

How many? I do not know outside of less than 6 million. Did it happen and were Jews targeted? Absolutely!

I am engaged in this talk because I am amazed by the religiously dogmatic defense of disputable facts. Facts which do not change the overall picture, I might add.

I generally "trust" historians. The beauty of history is disagreements are allowed, which provide for people to discern from said disagreements. The argument is a fantastic tool for testing ones own thought and learning new information! My questions is: Why is this a legally punishable offense for this subject?

[MaGZ]

kageki, specifically what evidence would convince you that the Nazis systematically killed millions of Jews (not to mention all the other civilians they killed for various reasons)?

Gravy, you still have not answered my question why you believe the Germans would deliberately kill civilians in Poland?

You did make that claim without any evidence.

[Pardalis]

Maybe he is a follower of Lyndon LaRouche

A nut trying to be sarcastic about another nut?

:eye-poppi

[JEROME DA GNOME]

It's run by a former United States Marine and a recipient of the Order of British Columbia?

Treason?

[Slayhamlet]

"In On the Jews and Their Lies, written in 1543 three years before his death, Luther recommends that Jews be deprived of money, civil rights, religious teaching, and education, and that they be forced to labor on the land, or else be expelled from Germany and possibly killed."

Your using a book written 400 years before the Holocaust yet reccomends mass murdering jews as proof the Holocaust didn't happen?

From anyone else, this would be a new "personal best" for nonsensical gibberish.

[Edit]but is he actually using Von den Jüden und iren Lügen as proof of Jewish subversiveness? :boggled:

Name calling is a breach of your membership agreement. Please refrain.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Treason?

*sigh*

You people shock, but you don't suprise me anymore.

British Columbia is a province of Canada. The United States of Americas closest military ally and single biggest economic trading partner.

The Order of British Columbia is a civillian award, given in this case in recognition of Mr. Mcvays work in combatting hate groups and their propaganda.

[Pardalis]

I am engaged in this talk because I am amazed by the religiously dogmatic defense of disputable facts. Facts which do not change the overall picture, I might add.

I generally "trust" historians. The beauty of history is disagreements are allowed, which provide for people to discern from said disagreements. The argument is a fantastic tool for testing ones own thought and learning new information! My questions is: Why is this a legally punishable offense for this subject?

The problem here is that it's not a reasonable academic debate, it is politically and ideologically motivated.

[gtc]

Yes basically all what you say is being questioned.

You can add burning Jews alive in ovens to that legend. Kind of amazing to me such a hoax about soap and lampshades could have been hatched in the first place :rolleyes: I hope no one still believes in such a lie told about what Nazis did.

It is actually not that amazing. Have you heard about urban legends? I recommend you visit the SNOPES website.

I believe that urban legend began in the camps themselves and may have been a reflection of stories circulated in World War I. Wikipedia has an article which links to several sources on the story.

[JEROME DA GNOME]

*sigh*

You people shock, but you don't suprise me anymore.

British Columbia is a province of Canada. The United States of Americas closest military ally and single biggest economic trading partner.

The Order of British Columbia is a civillian award, given in this case in recognition of Mr. Mcvays work in combatting hate groups and their propaganda.

First off: It was a joke which should have been apparent with what Sword_Of_Truth wrote.

Second: Who is "You people"?

[bynmdsue]

kageki:

Dude.Really,where the hell are you getting this "burn Jews alive in ovens" kak from?

[MaGZ]

Well the US embargoed oil shipments to Japan and was basically aiding China. From the perspective of Japan that is aiding the enemy. If Japan started aiding Iraq against the US, how would you take it? The ultimatum sent to Japan was a slap in the face.

The US was also engaging in covert warfare with Germany.


FDR and his Jew backers wanted a war with Germany. American ships fire upon German ships in the North Atlantic hoping to provoke an incident like the Maine or the Lusitania. The Germans did not take the bait.

FDR’s plan B was to provoke Japan, bringing Germany into the war.

The rest is history.

[JEROME DA GNOME]

The problem here is that it's not a reasonable academic debate, it is politically and ideologically motivated.

I read this as you saying that politically or ideologically motivated speech and argument can be punished by law at times.

Is this correct?

[Pardalis]

I read this as you saying that politically or ideologically motivated speech and argument can be punished by law at times.

Is this correct?

No. I'm for free speech.

ETA: I wasn't responding to the part of your post that dealt with the punishment of Holocaust denialism, but the part that assumed it is legitimate

[kageki]

His positions sound a bit leftist to me when he claims there was an American Indian Holocaust caused by the White Man.

Maybe he is a follower of Lyndon LaRouche

If you guys are still quibbling about labels then you will never understand me.

Well some other historians are claiming exactly that.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_history_of_American_indigenous_peoples

Historian David Stannard is of the opinion that the indigenous peoples of America (including Hawaii[16]) were the victims of a "Euro-American genocidal war."[17] While conceding that the majority of the indigenous peoples fell victim to the ravages of European disease, he estimates that almost 100 million died in what he calls the American Holocaust.[18] Stannard's perspective has been joined by Kirkpatrick Sale, Ben Kiernan, Lenore A. Stiffarm, and Phil Lane, Jr., among others; the perspective has been further refined by Ward Churchill, who has said that "it was precisely malice, not nature, that did the deed."[17] -- the Europeans chose to spread diseases.

I really don't understand how else to interpret the conquest of the US?

I started getting a weird hunch that the Nazis were invented to take blame for the idea of genocide to mask the past genocides. You have to admit we really don't know much about US history. Can you concede that Columbus is a mass murder? When you think about it's a huge insult for Native Americans that the US celebrates Columbus day.

[JEROME DA GNOME]

FDR and his Jew backers wanted a war with Germany. American ships fire upon German ships in the North Atlantic hoping to provoke an incident like the Maine or the Lusitania. The Germans did not take the bait.

FDR’s plan B was to provoke Japan, bringing Germany into the war.

The rest is history.

Remember the Maine!!!

http://skyways.lib.ks.us/museums/funston/Graphics/maine.jpg


Sunk in Cuba. We attacked the Philippians.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/01/images/060118_chinese_map.jpg


Can you find Cuba and the Philippians on this map?

[JEROME DA GNOME]

No. I'm for free speech.

ETA: I wasn't responding to the part of your post that dealt with the punishment of Holocaust denialism, but the part that assumed it is legitimate

Understood, thanks.

[Slayhamlet]

Well, I use the soap and lampshade example to show how urban legend becomes; at times, common indisputable knowledge. Go back 25? years and you would find that if one denied the soap and lampshade stories one would be denounced. ( I still hear it from time to time.)

How many? I do not know outside of less than 6 million. Did it happen and were Jews targeted? Absolutely!

I am engaged in this talk because I am amazed by the religiously dogmatic defense of disputable facts. Facts which do not change the overall picture, I might add.

I generally "trust" historians. The beauty of history is disagreements are allowed, which provide for people to discern from said disagreements. The argument is a fantastic tool for testing ones own thought and learning new information! My questions is: Why is this a legally punishable offense for this subject?

But do you think it's likely to be significantly wrong simply because a number of countries have outlawed denying it altogether? As you surely know, it is not a legally punishable offense in America to deny the Holocaust or anything else. Are you asking why it is so in places like Germany and Austria? I'd guess for the same reason the Nazi party itself and paraphernalia advocating for the Nazi party are illegal: they don't want anything like a Nazi takeover to ever happen again. It's an extraordinary measure, sure, but there are, in my opinion, historically sound reasons for its existence in those countries.

[Pardalis]

Can you find Cuba and the Philippians on this map?

I can't even see Newfoundland, what's your point?

And what's this Island West of America?

[JEROME DA GNOME]

I can't even see Newfounland, what's your point?

Just playing conspiratorial.

The Maine was sunk in Cuba. We attacked the Spanish in the Philippians; half way around the world, as a result.

The truth is emotion is used move the population to do things that seem incongruent.

[kageki]

"In On the Jews and Their Lies, written in 1543 three years before his death, Luther recommends that Jews be deprived of money, civil rights, religious teaching, and education, and that they be forced to labor on the land, or else be expelled from Germany and possibly killed."

Your using a book written 400 years before the Holocaust yet reccomends mass murdering jews as proof the Holocaust didn't happen?

From anyone else, this would be a new "personal best" for nonsensical gibberish.

Do you ever ask why? Why did he write those things? You do realize books like this and Mein Kampf are more then a few lines?

This sounds similiar to what the Nazis had in mind. "possibly" killed. Maybe you missed that and how everything else is non-violent and also mentions deportation. That is what the Nazis probably did. No death factories.

[Pardalis]

Understood, thanks.

I didn't mean "legitimate" by legal standards, I meant the sixth definition of the word. :o

http://www.elook.org/dictionary/legitimate.html

[kageki]

Whatever happened to the Native people in America, as horrible as it may be, it still doesn't excuse the deliberate and systematic policy of ethnic cleansing of the Jews by the Nazis.

You don't get it yet. The Europeans did essentially have a ethnic cleansing plan. The Nazis also did not have an extermination plan for Jews. They primarily wanted to deport them.

[MaGZ]

Well you didn't claim it off course. Man you people are just ridiculous. Isn't this what we are told what happened in the Holocaust? That Nazis burned Jews alive in ovens?

Kageki, I take it the point you are making is the Jews had a theological reason to claiming six million since this would fit in nicely to fulfilling their prophecies.

[Pardalis]

You don't get it yet. The Europeans did essentially have a ethnic cleansing plan. The Nazis also did not have an extermination plan for Jews. They primarily wanted to deport them.

No.

[kageki]

*sigh*

You people shock, but you don't suprise me anymore.

British Columbia is a province of Canada. The United States of Americas closest military ally and single biggest economic trading partner.

The Order of British Columbia is a civillian award, given in this case in recognition of Mr. Mcvays work in combatting hate groups and their propaganda.

Canada isn't the US either right?

[kageki]

But do you think it's likely to be significantly wrong simply because a number of countries have outlawed denying it altogether? As you surely know, it is not a legally punishable offense in America to deny the Holocaust or anything else. Are you asking why it is so in places like Germany and Austria? I'd guess for the same reason the Nazi party itself and paraphernalia advocating for the Nazi party are illegal: they don't want anything like a Nazi takeover to ever happen again. It's an extraordinary measure, sure, but there are, in my opinion, historically sound reasons for its existence in those countries.

What "historically" sound reason is that? I thought punishment for speaking was put behind in the Dark Ages. It's illegal there because that's where the truth is. Voltaire would heartily disagree with you.

[JEROME DA GNOME]

Canada isn't the US either right?

Protectorate would be the proper term.

[JEROME DA GNOME]

Kageki, I take it the point you are making is the Jews had a theological reason to claiming six million since this would fit in nicely to fulfilling their prophecies.

Divorce this statement from the current talk and it certainly seems plausible.

[kageki]

Kageki, I take it the point you are making is the Jews had a theological reason to claiming six million since this would fit in nicely to fulfilling their prophecies.

Yes. That's apparently what the prophecy says. The fixation on the 6 million number can be explained by that. They also apparently need to build the Temple of Solomon so the messiah can come. I can't make this stuff up. It's all going according to the Bible. Many people believe we are playing out the End Times right now.

[MaGZ]

you are a despicable human being and it embarasses me that i share the planet with such a ignorant person

Your insults are an insult.

[gtc]

Kageki, I take it the point you are making is the Jews had a theological reason to claiming six million since this would fit in nicely to fulfilling their prophecies.

Evidence that the Jews have a theological reason for claiming 6 million?

You don't get it yet. The Europeans did essentially have a ethnic cleansing plan.

Evidence for an ethnic cleansing plan?

The Nazis also did not have an extermination plan for Jews.

Evidence that the Nazis did not have an extermination plan?

They primarily wanted to deport them.

Evidence that they primarily wanted to deport them?

Once you have provided the evidence, then you can explain how killing someone when you are merely forcibly removing them from their homes and possessions is any better than deliberately killing them.

Protectorate would be the proper term.

Evidence that Canada is a protectorate?

[MaGZ]

no, i was taught they were gassed then burnt. i guess you were alseep at this point




irrelevant and, in fact, maybe at sometime they did, but no-one is fixated on this or claiming this



the soldier who you are calling a liar, i linked already and you ignored what he said then called him a liar



they do if we have testimonies that say what they were used for

How do you know if the soldier is not lying? Soldiers at times do lie. Why do you assume he is telling the truth? Is it because you want to believe him?

[gtc]

Many people believe we are playing out the End Times right now.

Evidence that the concept of the 'End Times' is part of Jewish beliefs?

[kageki]

Just playing conspiratorial.

The Maine was sunk in Cuba. We attacked the Spanish in the Philippians; half way around the world, as a result.

The truth is emotion is used move the population to do things that seem incongruent.

You know it's pretty amazing how many similiar examples there are in past US history :rolleyes:

The oldest trick in the book.

[JEROME DA GNOME]

Evidence that the concept of the 'End Times' is part of Jewish beliefs?

I am pretty sure that according to the old testament that when the Messiah comes there will be a new world, thus an end time for the old world.

[gtc]

You know it's pretty amazing how many similiar examples there are in past US history :rolleyes:

The oldest trick in the book.

Please stop derailing the thread and please answer the questions you have been asked.

[JEROME DA GNOME]

Evidence that Canada is a protectorate?

If I must.

Protectorate: the relationship of superior authority assumed by one power or state over a dependent one

[gtc]

I am pretty sure that according to the old testament that when the Messiah comes there will be a new world, thus an end time for the old world.

Fantastic. Then you should certainly be able to demonstrate that the Jews had a theological reason to claim 6 million. Afterall you just said:

Kageki, I take it the point you are making is the Jews had a theological reason to claiming six million since this would fit in nicely to fulfilling their prophecies.

Divorce this statement from the current talk and it certainly seems plausible.

[MaGZ]

Good, good.... you're getting there. Now, how many cremations were the Treblinka ovens used for?

This is important, because every cremation implies a body, and every body implies a death. The crematoria at Belzec had enough capacity to burn the entire camp's population every month or so. Why would one need that much capacity?

You can run the numbers. First the number supposedly killed or gassed. Then the number of crematoria to be used to burn the dead bodies and the time it would take to turn the bodies into ash. Also you must consider the remains of ash and where the volume of remains are located.

Start with any numbers you like and you will find it does not anyway possible add up.

[gtc]

If I must.

Protectorate: the relationship of superior authority assumed by one power or state over a dependent one

A definition is not evidence. Please provide the evidence.

[kageki]

Evidence that the concept of the 'End Times' is part of Jewish beliefs?

Go read the Talmud and other religious jewish books. Go talk to a rabbi.

You are asking me for evidence where I am essentially quoting the bible.

[gtc]

Go read the Talmud and other religious jewish books. Go talk to a rabbi.

You are asking me for evidence where I am essentially quoting the bible.

The Bible (Christian) is not the Talmud (Jewish), although they share some books in common. Also you are in no way 'essentially quoting' either.

You made a claim about the contents of the Talmud and the Jewish religion. Now you need to provide the evidence or you need to retract your claim.

It is not like it is hard to find a copy of the Talmud or Old Testament online.

[MaGZ]

Well, let's see. The claim on the table, just to make sure we're on the same page, is that "the Nazi's systematically killed [multiple] millions of Jews."

So, let's start with the basics. Werre there multiple millions of Jewish deaths under the Nazi regime? Yes. Simple demographic statistics prove it. For example, the Jewish population of Poland dropped from about 3.3million to less than 100,000 during the period from 1939--1945, while the number of Jewish emigrants/refugees/displaced persons was less than 250,000. So there were at least 2.5 million Jewish deaths in Poland alone. Similar demographic statistics indicate at least a half million Jewish deaths in Hungary, and so forth.

if your claim is that these two-and-a-half million Poles did not die, then where were they in 1946?

Were these people killed by the Nazis? Well, the Nazis were very public about how they were rounding up the Polish Jews; we have lots of surviving documentary evidence about the sweeps, as well as reports of the numbers of Jews killed (particularly by the Einsatzgruppen). We have train records indicating that millions of people were systematically delivered by train to the concentration camps, including the Operation Reinhard extermination camps, from which they never returned.

We further have forensic evidence in the forms of dead bodies and cremation remains.

We have eyewitness testimony by people who actually performed the killings, as well as official directives outlining the methods of killing and ordering the constrution of the killing equipment.

What more direct evidence would you like?

How do you know if any of the numbers you provided are accurate?
Answer: you don’t.
You are a Holocaust believer.

[JEROME DA GNOME]

Fantastic. Then you should certainly be able to demonstrate that the Jews had a theological reason to claim 6 million. Afterall you just said:

I said to divorce the thought from this talk.

It is not unusual for religion to manipulate facts to achieve manipulation of their flock.

[JEROME DA GNOME]

A definition is not evidence. Please provide the evidence.

If I use a word which represents the reality and the reality is represented by the definition of said word, then yes; this is evidence that the word represents the circumstance described.