[Moderated]The Holocaust never happened!

[kageki]

How Not To Be Interviewed By CNN About The Holocaust
http://www.rense.com/general62/cnn.htm


One of them asked if I believed in the Holocaust. "Do I believe Jews died or do I believe 6,000,000 Jews were gassed and cremated?" I responded. The latter, she said. "No - that's complete rubbish, as a little logic will demonstrate," I replied. "Here, let me explain."

"Consider why Germany, fighting a war on two fronts, desperate for fuel and materiel of every sort, would bother to load millions of Jews on railroad cars and transport them hundreds, even thousands, of miles to concentration camps. Camps built specifically to house them, where they would be fed, clothed, even tattooed so they could be inventoried...just to kill them."

"Look," I continued, "it doesn't even begin to make sense. If they wanted Jews dead, they would have done it the same way that Russian Jews had been doing it to millions and millions (20 to 80 million, depending upon to whom you talk) of White Christians for the past thirty years at the time: with a bullet to the base of the skull, wherever they might be found."



"Why would they lie about all these things?" asked the CNN producer.

"To engender an ethnocentric feeling of unity among Jews and simultaneously guilt trip all the rest of us into submission. Besides, it's been a huge moneymaker for them. Don't forget the Mossad's motto: 'By Way of Deception, Thou Shalt Do War.'"



Also for Israel.

[gtc]

I said to divorce the thought from this talk.

It is not unusual for religion to manipulate facts to achieve manipulation of their flock.

You will have to explain what you mean by 'divorce this statement from the current talk' as you clearly said:

it certainly seems plausible.

In relation to the claim that

the Jews had a theological reason to claiming six million since this would fit in nicely to fulfilling their prophecies.

Are you now suggesting that you did not mean that it certainly seems plausible that the Jews had a theological reason to claim 6 million died?

[MaGZ]

It also proves how many bodies were cremated.



On that scale? Remember, there was enough capacity in the crematoria to empty the entire camp each month or so. There were enough people moving into that camp each month or so to re-fill it (we have train records, remember).

No disease known to science causes death on that scale and that quickly. An unknown disease of such magnitude would have wiped out the concentration camp guards as well -- which we know (from the surviving medical records) didn't happen.

And beyond that, if the disease were that virulent and dangerous, then continuing to ship prisoners into such an environment would constitute murder in and of itself.

So, no, it wasn't to stop the spread of disease.

The delousing of the prisoners and their clothing was routine when they arrived at the camps and they did the delousing in the gas chambers. Are you suggesting those who ran the camps were not concerned with the spread of disease?

[gtc]

If I use a word which represents the reality and the reality is represented by the definition of said word, then yes; this is evidence that the word represents the circumstance described.

You clearly do not understand how this works.

You made a claim. You need to provide evidence.

So please provide evidence that Canada is a US protectorate or, if you rather, provide evidence that the US and Canada are in a

relationship of superior authority assumed by one power or state over a dependent one

[JEROME DA GNOME]

You will have to explain what you mean by 'divorce this statement from the current talk' as you clearly said:

Are you now suggesting that you did not mean that it certainly seems plausible that the Jews had a theological reason to claim 6 million died?

UGHHH, I used the words "divorce" and "plausible" because there was an important point I was stating; and I have no intention of proving that the Jews have some sort of affinity for the number 6 million.

Did you get the point at all?

These forums are not intended to be continuous argument. I perceive this as a conversation and hope you can as well.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

If I must.

Protectorate: the relationship of superior authority assumed by one power or state over a dependent one

Please list the attacks carried out against Canada, it's posessions and vital foreign interests by hostile foreign power to wich only US forces responded.

[JEROME DA GNOME]

You clearly do not understand how this works.

You made a claim. You need to provide evidence.

So please provide evidence that Canada is a US protectorate or, if you rather, provide evidence that the US and Canada are in a

Is Canada not dependent on the USA for defense?

[kageki]

The Bible (Christian) is not the Talmud (Jewish), although they share some books in common. Also you are in no way 'essentially quoting' either.

You made a claim about the contents of the Talmud and the Jewish religion. Now you need to provide the evidence or you need to retract your claim.

It is not like it is hard to find a copy of the Talmud or Old Testament online.




http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/bb981128.htm

The Old Testament speaks of a jubilee every fiftieth year in which all debts are cancelled, Hebrew slaves were freed and any land that was mortgaged is returned (Leviticus 25:10). It seems the letter "v," which in Hebrew represents the number six, has not been copied so with Talmudic license the rabbis have twisted this to mean, "You shall return minus six million" (Facts on File Inc., 460 Park Ave., S., New York, NY 10016, 1990, page 214. quoted by Ben Weintraub (Robert L. Brock), in The Holocaust Dogma of Judaism: Keystone of the New World Order, Cosmo Publishing, PO Box 15248, Washington, D.C. 20003, USA. (1995), p. 3; based upon The Secrets of Hebrew Words by Rabbi Benjamin Blech, p. 5-6).

http://www.globalfire.tv/nj/04en/jews/6millionlie.htm

[Davidlpf]

Kageki, the real reason for genocide was to unite the jews all together into one group.:D

JEROME, speak as a Canadian, WE ARE NOT A PROTECTORATE OF THE UNITED STATES.

[JEROME DA GNOME]

Please list the attacks carried out against Canada, it's posessions and vital foreign interests by hostile foreign power to wich only US forces responded.

Why?

[JEROME DA GNOME]

JEROME, speak as a Canadian, WE ARE NOT A PROTECTORATE OF THE UNITED STATES.

How many Capital ships defend the Canadian borders?

[gtc]

Next time you mean to say

It is not unusual for religion to manipulate facts to achieve manipulation of their flock.

I suggest that you simply say it as there is no way that anyone could interpret:

Kageki, I take it the point you are making is the Jews had a theological reason to claiming six million since this would fit in nicely to fulfilling their prophecies.

Divorce this statement from the current talk and it certainly seems plausible.

As suggesting that you really meant to say:

It is not unusual for religion to manipulate facts to achieve manipulation of their flock.

[kageki]

Kageki, the real reason for genocide was to unite the jews all together into one group.:D

JEROME, speak as a Canadian, WE ARE NOT A PROTECTORATE OF THE UNITED STATES.

We are debating whether there really was a genocide. But the anti-semitic feelings towards the Jews were enough to achieve the goals which there were plenty. Such as taking away there stores or gathering them into ghettos for instance. Non-violently. Expelling them from the country also worked.

Do you think perhaps that some Jews were Communists? Therefore enemies of Germany?

[gtc]

Now we are getting somewhere.

Leviticus 25:10 says in the New International Version (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus+25:10):

Consecrate the fiftieth year and proclaim liberty throughout the land to all its inhabitants. It shall be a jubilee for you; each one of you is to return to his family property and each to his own clan.

Oddly enough, I fail to see the number 6 in this passage, let alone evidence that it has been translated as 6 million.

[Davidlpf]

How many Capital ships defend the Canadian borders?

We have a few, but we are part of the commonwealth and our head os state is the queen of England. Please do a little research before you say something.\http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ships_of_the_Canadian_Navy#Current_ships

[JEROME DA GNOME]

We have a few, but we are part of the commonwealth and our head os state is the queen of England. Please do a little research before you say something.\http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ships_of_the_Canadian_Navy#Current_ships

Are you stating that Canada is in a protectorate relationship with the Queen?
:confused:

[JEROME DA GNOME]

We have a few, but we are part of the commonwealth and our head os state is the queen of England. Please do a little research before you say something.\http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ships_of_the_Canadian_Navy#Current_ships

So, for 35 years until the mid 1990's Canada had 3 Capitol ships.

It must have been those 3 1960's destroyers that keep the Soviets from invading.;)

[Davidlpf]

We are debating whether there really was a genocide. But the anti-semitic feelings towards the Jews were enough to achieve the goals which there were plenty. Such as taking away there stores or gathering them into ghettos for instance. Non-violently. Expelling them from the country also worked.

Do you think perhaps that some Jews were Communists? Therefore enemies of Germany?

Well many others were killed besides just Jews becuase they were against but Hitler really did not like Jews. I have seen your posts in Pearl Harbour thread as well, so I know you do not do research.

[Davidlpf]

So, for 35 years until the mid 1990's Canada had 3 Capitol ships.

It must have been those 3 1960's destroyers that keep the Soviets from invading.;)

As mentioned above we are part of the commonwealth, so the statement about Capitol ships is null and void. At one time we had the best fighter called in delvopment, but tanked and bought faulty american missles to defend the north, then we bought plane we nicknamed widowmaker, both from the US.

[Davidlpf]

Are you stating that Canada is in a protectorate relationship with the Queen?
:confused:

No I am saying we do not have protectorate relations with anybody, you just assume the we must be protectorate because you think only nations with large armies qualifies as a fully independent country.

[JEROME DA GNOME]

As mentioned above we are part of the commonwealth, so the statement about Capitol ships is null and void. At one time we had the best fighter called in delvopment, but tanked and bought faulty american missles to defend the north, then we bought plane we nicknamed widowmaker, both from the US.

Are you now claiming that the Soviets did not invade Canada because of the possible reprisal from the Queen?

[Davidlpf]

Here is a description of the commonwealth because JEROME and Kageki, need a lesson on international politics.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commonwealth_of_Nations

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Kageki, the real reason for genocide was to unite the jews all together into one group.:D

JEROME, speak as a Canadian, WE ARE NOT A PROTECTORATE OF THE UNITED STATES.

Try not to let Jerome get to you, David.

He has been arguing along with MagZ that Hitler and the Nazis were not the bad guys in WW2.

Jerome, clearly embarrassed and humiliated at the brutal ass-kicking his side suffered at Juno Beach, The Liberation of Holland and the Battle of The Atlantic is now trying to taunt and belittle us.

His precious "master race" got it's aryan ass handed to them by this "protectorate" and he's just being a sore loser.

EDIT: I almost forgot to add that Sir Winston Churchill even called Canada "The Aerodrome of Democracy", so you can add Goerings precious Luftwaffe under Doenitz's vaunted U-boat fleet under Canadas kill list.

[Davidlpf]

Are you now claiming that the Soviets did not invade Canada because of the possible reprisal from the Queen?

Man get your head out the cold why don't you, we do have treaties with NATO and other groups as well.

[SpitfireIX]

FDR and his Jew backers wanted a war with Germany. American ships fire upon German ships in the North Atlantic hoping to provoke an incident like the Maine or the Lusitania. The Germans did not take the bait.


S. S. Robin Moor (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,851128,00.html), May 21, 1941 - 0 dead.

The Robin Moor carried no munitions, no material of a military character. On her side, the U.S. ensign was clearly painted. . . .

The fact that no lives had been lost somewhat salved U.S. feelings. But at no point had U.S. feelings run very high. The U.S. was not even greatly stirred when a Nazi spokesman in Berlin defiantly announced that Germany intended to continue such sinkings.

But if feelings were not aroused, the sinking of the Robin Moor had nonetheless brought a crisis on the U.S. The Robin Moor had not been bound for any war area, was far even from the huge war zone which Germany herself laid out—an area extending from Norway to Greenland, almost to Spain. If such sinkings continue, U.S. ships bound for other places remote from fighting fronts, will be in danger.[emphasis added]


U.S.S. Greer (DD-145) (http://www.history.navy.mil/danfs/g8/greer.htm), September 4, 1941 - 0 dead.

At 0840 that morning Greer, carrying mail and passengers to Argentia, was signaled by a British plane that a Nazi submarine had crash-dived some 10 miles ahead. Forty minutes later the DD's soundman picked up the German U-boat, and Greer began to trail the submarine. The plane, running low on fuel, dropped four depth charges at 1032 and returned to base, while Greer continued to dog the U-boat. Two hours later the German boat began a series of radical maneuvers and Greer's lookouts saw her pass about 100 yards off. An impulse bubble at 1248 warned Greer of a torpedo and she rang up flank speed and bore rudder hard left. Lookouts watched the torpedo pass 100 yards astern and the warship then charged in for an attack. She laid a pattern of eight depth charges which missed, and less than two minutes later a second torpedo passed 300 yards to port.

Greer lost sound contact during the maneuvers, and began to quarter the area in search of the U-boat. After 2 hours, she reestablished sound contact and laid down a pattern of 11 depth charges before discontinuing the engagement. Greer had held the German raider in sound contact 3 hours and 28 minutes; had evaded two torpedoes fired at her; and with her 19 depth charges had become the first American ship in World War II to attack the German Kriegsmarine.[emphasis added]


S.S. Steel Seafarer (http://www.armed-guard.com/ag84.html), September 5, 1941 - 0 dead.

U.S.S. Kearney (DD-432) (http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/ships/dafs/DD/dd432.html), October 17, 1941 - 11 dead.

S.S. Lehigh (http://www.armed-guard.com/ag84.html), October 19, 1941 - 0 dead.

U.S.S. Reuben James (DD-245) (http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/ships/dafs/DD/dd245.html), October 31, 1941 - 115 dead.

S.S. Astral (http://www.armed-guard.com/ag84.html), December 2, 1941 - 37 dead.

S.S. Sagadoc (http://www.armed-guard.com/ag84.html), December 3, 1941 - 1 dead.

Darn, MaGZ, the Germans started sinking US ships first. Darn, MaGZ, you don't know what you're talking about. Darn, MaGZ, your swastika is showing again.

FDR’s plan B was to provoke Japan, bringing Germany into the war.

The rest is history.


Why don't you take that issue to the Pearl Harbor thread?

[JEROME DA GNOME]

Here is a description of the commonwealth because JEROME and Kageki, need a lesson on international politics.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commonwealth_of_Nations

In the Balfour Declaration at the Imperial Conference in 1926, Britain and its dominions agreed they were equal in status, in no way subordinate one to another in any aspect of their domestic or external affairs, though united by common allegiance to the Crown, and freely associated as members of the British Commonwealth of Nations.

Members of the commonwealth have pledged allegiance (the fidelity (faithful; like a dog) owed by a subject or citizen to a sovereign or government) to the Queen.

Protectorate: the relationship of superior authority assumed by one power or state over a dependent one



OK, this is enough picking on those that choose to neglect their individual sovereignty.

Back to the topic at hand.

[Redtail]

Is Canada not dependent on the USA for defense?

Not just no but hell no. I cross trained with some men from PPCLI. The "princess" jokes stopped real quick.

[JEROME DA GNOME]

He has been arguing along with MagZ that Hitler and the Nazis were not the bad guys in WW2.

Have not.

Jerome, clearly embarrassed and humiliated at the brutal ass-kicking his side suffered at Juno Beach, The Liberation of Holland and the Battle of The Atlantic is now trying to taunt and belittle us.

My side won.

His precious "master race" got it's aryan ass handed to them by this "protectorate" and he's just being a sore loser.

Firstly; you know not what "race" I am.

Second; "race" is a false human construct.

[Davidlpf]

Try not to let Jerome get to you, David.

He has been arguing along with MagZ that Hitler and the Nazis were not the bad guys in WW2.

Jerome, clearly embarrassed and humiliated at the brutal ass-kicking his side suffered at Juno Beach, The Liberation of Holland and the Battle of The Atlantic is now trying to taunt and belittle us.

His precious "master race" got it's aryan ass handed to them by this "protectorate" and he's just being a sore loser.

EDIT: I almost forgot to add that Sir Winston Churchill even called Canada "The Aerodrome of Democracy", so you can add Goerings precious Luftwaffe to Doenitz's vaunted U-boat fleet to Canadas kill list.

Well Aerodorme of Democracy probably beacuase one his advisors Lord Beaverbrook Minister of Aircraft Production came from Canada (actually grew up in my province New Brunswick).

[JEROME DA GNOME]

Not just no but hell no. I cross trained with some men from PPCLI. The "princess" jokes stopped real quick.

An aggressive stance against facts do not disrupt the facts.

[kageki]

S. S. Robin Moor (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,851128,00.html), May 21, 1941 - 0 dead.




U.S.S. Greer (DD-145) (http://www.history.navy.mil/danfs/g8/greer.htm), September 4, 1941 - 0 dead.




S.S. Steel Seafarer (http://www.armed-guard.com/ag84.html), September 5, 1941 - 0 dead.

U.S.S. Kearney (DD-432) (http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/ships/dafs/DD/dd432.html), October 17, 1941 - 11 dead.

S.S. Lehigh (http://www.armed-guard.com/ag84.html), October 19, 1941 - 0 dead.

U.S.S. Reuben James (DD-245) (http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/ships/dafs/DD/dd245.html), October 31, 1941 - 115 dead.

S.S. Astral (http://www.armed-guard.com/ag84.html), December 2, 1941 - 37 dead.

S.S. Sagadoc (http://www.armed-guard.com/ag84.html), December 3, 1941 - 1 dead.

Darn, MaGZ, the Germans started sinking US ships first. Darn, MaGZ, you don't know what you're talking about. Darn, MaGZ, your swastika is showing again.




Why don't you take that issue to the Pearl Harbor thread?

Were they in response to something? Did Germans lose any ships?

[Redtail]

An aggressive stance against facts do not disrupt the facts.

True, but you need facts first. Can you state who PPCLI is without googling for example? Or since this thread is discussing an act of WWII When did PPCLI land in Europe during WWII?

[gtc]

An aggressive stance against facts do not disrupt the facts.

Jerome,

You have been called out on your faulty understanding of Canadian, US relationships.

Asked to show that Canada is subordinate to the US, you have now started to claim that Canada is subordinate to Queen Elizabeth the Second.

You were completely wrong about the US relationship with Canada and you are now completely wrong about the Canadian relationship to QEII (google the Queen of Canada). Even if you were right about the Canadian relationship to QEII it would have no bearing on whether your claims about the US relationship to Canada were correct and the topic would still be completely irrelevant to the Holocaust.

Why don't you start a new thread if you want to prolong this.

[JEROME DA GNOME]

Jerome,

You have been called out on your faulty understanding of Canadian, US relationships.

"Calling out" is not the same as presenting evidence against the assertion.

Asked to show that Canada is subordinate to the US, you have now started to claim that Canada is subordinate to Queen Elizabeth the Second.

No; someone else's argument against Canada being a protectorate of the US was that Canada was a protectorate of the Queen.


Why don't you start a new thread if you want to prolong this.

I tried to be done, it seems as if there is always someone wanting "call out" and have the last word.:)

[SpitfireIX]

Were they in response to something? Did Germans lose any ships?


Did you even read what I wrote? The Robin Moor was sunk months before the first time a U.S. warship ever attacked a German warship. You can read the entire Time Magazine article by following the hyperlink. Come to that, you can read all of the stories of all the ships; that's why I included the links.

As to whether any German ships were sunk by the US before December 11, 1941, I don't know of any. It is possible, however, that at least one U-boat was sunk by an American destroyer, but the kill wasn't confirmed, and the actual circumstances of the boat's loss ended up being unknown.

[gtc]

"Calling out" is not the same as presenting evidence against the assertion.


No. You still do not get it.

YOU made an assertion.
YOU provide evidence to show that your assetion is correct.

Now you should know exactly what you need to do.

Either you start a thread where you present your evidence that Canada is, in some way, a protectorate or you retract your assertion.

If you choose not to provide evidence or provide a retraction, then I suspect everyone who reads this thread (with the probable exception of Kageki and MaGZ) will realise that you have no evidence and no real understanding of the issues.

[kageki]

Did you even read what I wrote? The Robin Moor was sunk months before the first time a U.S. warship ever attacked a German warship. You can read the entire Time Magazine article by following the hyperlink. Come to that, you can read all of the stories of all the ships; that's why I included the links.

As to whether any German ships were sunk by the US before December 11, 1941, I don't know of any. It is possible, however, that at least one U-boat was sunk by an American destroyer, but the kill wasn't confirmed, and the actual circumstances of the boat's loss ended up being unknown.

Well let's see what did you decide not to include? This is the only thing you quoted about the Robin Moor:

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,851128,00.html



S. S. Robin Moor, May 21, 1941 - 0 dead.

Quote:
The Robin Moor carried no munitions, no material of a military character. On her side, the U.S. ensign was clearly painted. . . .

The fact that no lives had been lost somewhat salved U.S. feelings. But at no point had U.S. feelings run very high. The U.S. was not even greatly stirred when a Nazi spokesman in Berlin defiantly announced that Germany intended to continue such sinkings.

But if feelings were not aroused, the sinking of the Robin Moor had nonetheless brought a crisis on the U.S. The Robin Moor had not been bound for any war area, was far even from the huge war zone which Germany herself laid out—an area extending from Norway to Greenland, almost to Spain. If such sinkings continue, U.S. ships bound for other places remote from fighting fronts, will be in danger.[emphasis added]


What else did the article say?


The submarine's commander gave the Robin Moor half an hour to abandon ship. The passengers were roused. Three more boats were lowered. As the sun rose, after the boats were in the water, the submarine fired a torpedo into the Robin Moor amidships, shelled her for 23 minutes. She went wearily down by the stern.

The submarine circled about the captain's boat. A Nazi sailor gave the men four tins of ersatz bread, two tins of butter. Said the Nazi commander: "I'm sorry, but you were carrying supplies to my country's enemy." The German promised to radio the Robin Moor's position. Then he slid away into the sea.

They even gave them time to get off! Can you be more dishonest?

[MG1962]

Members of the commonwealth have pledged allegiance (the fidelity (faithful; like a dog) owed by a subject or citizen to a sovereign or government) to the Queen.

Protectorate: the relationship of superior authority assumed by one power or state over a dependent one



OK, this is enough picking on those that choose to neglect their individual sovereignty.

Back to the topic at hand.

Yes off course a nice little passing shot a group of countries - you go hard, tell me can you see sunlight from the bottom of that hole you have dug for yourself?

[JimBenArm]

Yes off course a nice little passing shot a group of countries - you go hard, tell me can you see sunlight from the bottom of that hole you have dug for yourself?
http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/12793471815f9d52b9.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=8844)

Still can see, just can't get out of it.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Well Aerodorme of Democracy probably beacuase one his advisors Lord Beaverbrook Minister of Aircraft Production came from Canada (actually grew up in my province New Brunswick).

He was actually referring to the Commonwealth Air Training Plan. Canada's wide open spaces and location far outside the reach of the Luftwaffe and IJN air arm made it the ideal location to train aircrews where they couldn't be shot at before they were ready to shoot back.

The majority of British, Australian and Canadian aircrews recaived their training in Canada during the war.

[Corsair 115]

A lot of lies have been told about Hitler and the Third Reich. I’m sure most will agree with me on this point.Once more you avoid my question. Is it really so difficult for you to answer whether or not you think the lack of the Holocaust means the Nazis were really just a bunch of misunderstood folks who were not all that bad?

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Have not.

You tried to prop up your buddy MagZ's factless rhetorical bluster by comparing all of us to religious fanatics.

My side won.

Your precious furher ate his own luger in a bunker under the ruins of Berlin in may of 1945 and his successors waved the white flag shortly thereafter.

In was in all the papers (our guys wiped out the ones that wouldn't print the story). I'm suprised you hadn't heard.

As they say in the World of Warcraft forums "QQ more, nub".

Firstly; you know not what "race" I am.

Actually, I don't care.

As MagZ, Louis Farrahkahn, Hassan Nazrallah and our acquaintance Kageki demonstrate, raving nazi-sympathizers come in all colors.

Second; "race" is a false human construct.

Take that up with your buddy, I'm sure he'll love to discuss it with you as you seem open to hearing him out.

[kageki]

Once more you avoid my question. Is it really so difficult for you to answer whether or not you think the lack of the Holocaust means the Nazis were really just a bunch of misunderstood folks who were not all that bad?

Yes. Look:


The submarine's commander gave the Robin Moor half an hour to abandon ship. The passengers were roused. Three more boats were lowered. As the sun rose, after the boats were in the water, the submarine fired a torpedo into the Robin Moor amidships, shelled her for 23 minutes. She went wearily down by the stern.

The submarine circled about the captain's boat. A Nazi sailor gave the men four tins of ersatz bread, two tins of butter. Said the Nazi commander: "I'm sorry, but you were carrying supplies to my country's enemy." The German promised to radio the Robin Moor's position. Then he slid away into the sea.

They gave them time to get off, gave them bread and butter and called a cab for them. I don't know. What do you make of that?

[JimBenArm]

Yes. Look:



They gave them time to get off, gave them bread and butter and called a cab for them. I don't know. What do you make of that?
I can make a flower, a hat, a pterodactyl...

[Corsair 115]

Is Canada not dependent on the USA for defense?We signed on for WWII in 1939, thank you very much. And that after a full debate in Parliament. Unlike WWI, Canada was not automatically at war with Germany when Britain declared war. We were free to choose our own path. Also, other than for a relatively small number of soldiers towards the end, the men who comprised our fighting forces in Europe were all volunteers. We did have conscription, but only volunteers were sent to combat zones.

But, history aside, the question I would ask is this: defence from whom?

How many Capital ships defend the Canadian borders? Defend the borders from whom?

[Redtail]

Yes. Look:



They gave them time to get off, gave them bread and butter and called a cab for them. I don't know. What do you make of that?

What supplies for his country's enemy were they carrying?

[kageki]

What supplies for his country's enemy were they carrying?

I don't know it didn't say in the article.

[Redtail]

I don't know it didn't say in the article.

So with what evidence we have he just sunk a ship, stranded those aboard in the ocean, and hoped someone would pick them up?

[Corsair 115]

Yes. Look...

They gave them time to get off, gave them bread and butter and called a cab for them. I don't know. What do you make of that?Wait, were those sailors actual members of the Nazi party or just regular navy men? There is a difference.

But in any case my earlier post was directed at MaGZ.

[MG1962]

He was actually referring to the Commonwealth Air Training Plan. Canada's wide open spaces and location far outside the reach of the Luftwaffe and IJN air arm made it the ideal location to train aircrews where they couldn't be shot at before they were ready to shoot back.

The majority of British, Australian and Canadian aircrews recaived their training in Canada during the war.

Yeah cause we were all part of this groovy organisation called the Commonweath. If one of us got into trouble, we knew there were friends to watch our back

[chillzero]

This thread gets one last chance to stay open. I am placing it on moderated status due to the amount of reports received, and the several derails. I do not have time to go move every post elsewhere, so am leaving them in place for now (They might be moved at some later date).

Discussion of Pearl Harbour:
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=99575

Start a new thread if you wish to discuss Native Americans.

Keep this thread on topic to the CT of whether the Holocaust occurred, otherwise both threads might be merged, or closed.

[MaGZ]

Hitler told Chamberlain he would not start a war on Poland. He lied.

He was a coward also

Why do you consider Hitler to be a coward?

[MaGZ]

Wow really? Did Iceland do anything to deserve to be invaded?

Yes
They were a little country that was just in the way.

[Darat]

Why do you consider Hitler to be a coward?

For me it comes from an extensive knowledge of his life from when he was a very young person.

[Davidlpf]

He was actually referring to the Commonwealth Air Training Plan. Canada's wide open spaces and location far outside the reach of the Luftwaffe and IJN air arm made it the ideal location to train aircrews where they couldn't be shot at before they were ready to shoot back.

The majority of British, Australian and Canadian aircrews recaived their training in Canada during the war.\
ok I am corrected.

[twinstead]

Why do you consider Hitler to be a coward?

Here's an interesting link:

http://www.kimel.net/hitman.html

[milesalpha]

Why do you consider Hitler to be a coward?

This is one of those tough questions about the Hitler history. People who claim he was not a coward point to his Iron Cross awards during WWI most commonly and the fact that he was wounded (gassed).

On the other hand (and I fall on this side) there are serious questions about those awards. He was not a front line soldier but rather a messenger. The records of his awards mysteriously disappeared when Hitler became chancellor. One of the strongest points, at least for me, was his actions during the Munich putsch. When the shooting started, the first guy into a car and out of there was Hitler. Other leaders were wounded and captured during the brief battle. His suicide also has to be put into a bit of context. Hitler had repeatedly said he would die leading the troops in a defense of Berlin. Instead he never ventured more than a few metres from the bunker, one famous incident was to present medals to a group of boys (I think they had taken out a Russian tank but cannot recall for sure). The sight of him pinning medals on children for acts that he would never found the courage to commit is very compelling.
It really comes down to individual opinion, but I believe the evidence shows that Hitler was not a man of courage when it came to his own well-being.

[MaGZ]

How do you explain Generalplan Ost?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalplan_Ost



From you wiki link.

Unfortunately no copies of the plan were found after the war among the documents in German archives. Nevertheless, the fact that such a document was created and used by Nazi officials is beyond doubt.


I doubt it.

[Dave_46]

<snip>
LOL.
<snip>

LOL.
<snip>

The murder of millions is not a laughing matter.

[drkitten]

I am denying that. People died on both sides of WW II but that was warfare. I totally reject the notion of any plan extermination of any population.

What was "Operation Reinhard," then?

[MaGZ]

What exactly do you deny about the current historical consensus about the Holocaust? That it happened at all? That it was so bad? That the Jews were specifically targeted? That they were killed systematically? That the number of Jewish deaths is as high as 6 million? I know you're not a deranged neo-Nazi like MaGZ or a dumb kid pushing nonsense to further a nationalist ideology like Kageki, so I'm genuinely curious. Also, who do you consider reliable amongst the self-styled scholars and historians who deny the Holocaust? Or do you just not trust any historians at all?

The "Jewish soap" thing is known to be a legend, and is recognized as such by nearly all contemporary historians of the Holocaust, so it is not a very good example of something that is wrong with our understanding of it.

The point is, if they can lie about Jewish soap and lampshades then, they can lie about anything concerning the "Holocaust."

They just need to develop more convincing lies. That is the reason they redefined the Holocaust story: placing extermination camps in the east, revising the extermination number downward where it was palatable. The history of Holocaust development is refining lies to the point where they have a product that will sell.

[Gravy]

First of all this thread is about the Holocaust so please stay on topic. I'm glad to see that you're more focused today. You've repeatedly tried to derail this thread.

kageki and MaGZ, I would like to help you in your search for truth. Specifically what evidence would convince you that the Nazis systematically killed thousands of Jews?

[Gravy]

Made a mistake in my last post. Meant to say "millions of Jews."

[MaGZ]

Most of them told by you and your friends.



It's run by a former United States Marine and a recipient of the Order of British Columbia?

Thanks for giving us the heads up on this shady character. :p

He may well be a shady character.

Run a search on "Ken McVay" and conviction.

[MaGZ]

But do you think it's likely to be significantly wrong simply because a number of countries have outlawed denying it altogether? As you surely know, it is not a legally punishable offense in America to deny the Holocaust or anything else. Are you asking why it is so in places like Germany and Austria? I'd guess for the same reason the Nazi party itself and paraphernalia advocating for the Nazi party are illegal: they don't want anything like a Nazi takeover to ever happen again. It's an extraordinary measure, sure, but there are, in my opinion, historically sound reasons for its existence in those countries.

By the same logic why don’t they ban the works or advocates of Lenin, Stalin, Mao or Pol Pot.

[drkitten]

I doubt it.

Did you read the rest of the paragraph you cited?


The existence of the plan was confirmed by SS-Standartenführer Dr. Hans Ehlich, one of the witnesses in Case VIII before the U.S Military Tribunal in Nuremberg. As a high official in the RSHA, Ehlich was the man responsible for the drafting of Generalplan Ost.

Apart from Ehlich's testimony, there are several documents which refer to this plan or are supplements to it. Although no copies of the actual document have survived, much of the essential elements of the plan have been reconstructed from related memos, abstracts and other ancillary documents. The principal document which makes it possible to recreate with a great deal of accuracy the contents of Generalplan Ost is a memorandum of April 27, 1942 entitled: Stellungnahme und Gedanken zum Generalplan Ost des Reichsführers SS (Opinion and Ideas Regarding the General Plan for the East of the Reichsführer SS). Its author was Dr. Erich Wetzel, the director of the Central Advisory Office on Questions of Racial Policy at the National Socialist Party (Leiter der Hauptstelle Beratungsstelle des Rassenpolitischen Amtes der NSDAP). This memorandum is an elaboration of Generalplan Ost.

Let's see, we've got sworn testimony by the author that he wrote it, abstracts of the document, and opinion texts directly citing the document.

What basis do you have for doubt?

[MaGZ]

For me it comes from an extensive knowledge of his life from when he was a very young person.

Was Hitler a coward in WW I?
Didn’t he earn the Iron Cross?

[milesalpha]

By the same logic why don’t they ban the works or advocates of Lenin, Stalin, Mao or Pol Pot.

Well, Lenin was not a mass murderer, why would they ban his works?

Stalin was most certainly purged from Soviet History as a hero after his death. His allies were removed from power, his statues destoyed, all in the immediate aftermath of his death. What advocates still exist?

Mao has no where near the influence on Chinese society that he had during his life. Few advocates of Mao still exist, not many little red books toted around any more.

Pol Pot, I don't know enough to comment on his current reputation.

[MaGZ]

This is one of those tough questions about the Hitler history. People who claim he was not a coward point to his Iron Cross awards during WWI most commonly and the fact that he was wounded (gassed).

On the other hand (and I fall on this side) there are serious questions about those awards. He was not a front line soldier but rather a messenger. The records of his awards mysteriously disappeared when Hitler became chancellor. One of the strongest points, at least for me, was his actions during the Munich putsch. When the shooting started, the first guy into a car and out of there was Hitler. Other leaders were wounded and captured during the brief battle. His suicide also has to be put into a bit of context. Hitler had repeatedly said he would die leading the troops in a defense of Berlin. Instead he never ventured more than a few metres from the bunker, one famous incident was to present medals to a group of boys (I think they had taken out a Russian tank but cannot recall for sure). The sight of him pinning medals on children for acts that he would never found the courage to commit is very compelling.
It really comes down to individual opinion, but I believe the evidence shows that Hitler was not a man of courage when it came to his own well-being.

There were several assassination attempts against Hitler during his lifetime and yet he would continue to appear in large crowds and open motorcades.

What politician or national leader today appears in open motorcades?

Editing to add note that this line of discussion is now straying off topic, and will no longer be approved for the thread.

[CHF]

The point is, if they can lie about Jewish soap and lampshades then, they can lie about anything concerning the "Holocaust."

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that some atrocity stories are exaggerated.

Does that in your mind negate testimony from the Nazis themselves? Does that negate piles of corpses? Does that negate the mass graves filled with 1.5 million people by the Einsatzgruppen death squads?

While the exact total of Jews killed by the Nazis is debatable (5 million? 6 million?) what is not debatable is whether or not there was a systematic campaign of mass murder directed at Jews by the Nazi regime.

Holocaust Deniers play the same juvenile game as the 9/11 twoofers or creationists: one piece of suspect evidence is considered enough to throw out the entire case.

[Belz...]

What a picture of corpses that died from a typhus outbreak?

That proves what exactly?

The only thing YOUR post proves is that you have just DECIDES that they died from typhus.

[Belz...]

I am denying that. People died on both sides of WW II but that was warfare. I totally reject the notion of any plan extermination of any population.

Except for the Jewish plan to exterminate Germany.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany_Must_Perish!

Ah! So they had it coming, then ? :mad:

The camps were labor camps and the administration wanted to keep the prisoners happy.

Yeah, REAL happy.

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_6080474d84ca991ed.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=9460)

[JEROME DA GNOME]

You tried to prop up your buddy MagZ's factless rhetorical bluster by comparing all of us to religious fanatics.

Who is "all of us"?


Your precious furher ate his own luger in a bunker under the ruins of Berlin in may of 1945 and his successors waved the white flag shortly thereafter.

Too bad for your made up thoughts that my family fought for the allies against the Nazis.

In was in all the papers (our guys wiped out the ones that wouldn't print the story). I'm suprised you hadn't heard.

As they say in the World of Warcraft forums "QQ more, nub".

I suggest reading what others are writing and not making up what people are saying.



Actually, I don't care.

Of course not, then you would have to think before writing.



Take that up with your buddy, I'm sure he'll love to discuss it with you as you seem open to hearing him out.


You are the one at the beginning of this post said "all of us"; what do you mean by this?

[SDC]

I consider this to be more propaganda on the level of Sadam’s mobile bio-weapons labs traveling the countryside.

Isn’t it incredibly inefficient to burn fuels for carbon monoxide Jew killing machines when you need these fuels to win the war and to supply the military?
It never happened.

Well since Magz is quoting me, about the trucks as killing equipment, I'll respond here, rather late.

First, it's true, it happened; about the trucks. Go check Nizkor. Read any real book about the Holocaust.

Second, you're right, it was darned inefficient. That's why the Germans gave it up and moved on to huge, fixed gas chambers. Trial and error.

And many historians have commented on the stupidity of the Germans' putting enormous resources into killing millions of non-combatants which they could have used against the Soviet or Allied armies.

Magz, Kageki has stated that he is non-Aryan (since he has stated he is Japanese). Do you find it appropriate to make common cause with him?

[SpitfireIX]

He may well be a shady character.

Run a search on "Ken McVay" and conviction.


Even granting for the sake of debate that all these awful things about McVeigh are true, your argument is nothing more than an ad hominem abusive logical fallacy. "Don't believe this guy--he's [insert irrelevant negative characteristics]."

[HawksFan]

Just out of curiosity, how many of the posters in this thread have actually been to one of the camps? Not as a prisioner, obviously, but visited one?

I have (Dachau) and I can tell you it is a sobering and emotional experience. Just the feeling you get walking through the gate with the "Arbeit macht Frei" slogan overhead was almost overwhelming. Almost all conversation stopped at that point as everyone looked around and especially back towards the gate and the fences. You could acutally feel (well, I did) the suffering and misery and death. The crematorium out behind the camp was particularly chilling. I was only 14 at the time I visited.

And Dachau was one of the "nicer" camps. I can't even imagine what visiting a place like Auchwitz or Bergen-Belsen or one of the other notorious eastern camps must be like.

Anyone who doubts that the Holocaust happened needs to visit one of these places. Then tell me it never happened.

[TimB1]

Except for the Jewish plan to exterminate Germany.
h ttp: //en. wikipedia.org/ wiki/Germany_Must_Perish!

That article says that the book was self-published by one Jewish man in New Jersey. You may as well say that there's an 'English plan' to claim that the world is controlled by shape-shifting lizards, because David Icke says so.

[tsig]

Why do you consider Hitler to be a coward?

He killed himself.

[Pak43]

Was it technically and logistically possible to have carried out mass executions in gas chambers specifically using Zyklon B given the conditions of the environment and the process described by witness testimonies?

It seem it is actually difficult to burn many bodies in a large pit and would certainly require large amounts of fuel which was a scarce commodity. If it is even true about this melted fat being scooped on top of the pile, would it even help to continue the burning?

Well if it doesn't seem technically possible to kill many people with gas and dispose of them then yes it would seem that the witnesses could be wrong.

You can run the numbers. First the number supposedly killed or gassed. Then the number of crematoria to be used to burn the dead bodies and the time it would take to turn the bodies into ash. Also you must consider the remains of ash and where the volume of remains are located.

Auschwitz's chief architect (Karl Bischoff) listed in June 1943 an incineration rate for Krema 2 of 1440 corpses per twenty four hours. When questioned about it's authenticity Robert Jan indicated that this document had been available for over 50 years. The original was available and not only that but there is a typed copy in another archive, given that there are two different copies in 2 different archives it was highly improbable they are forgeries.

This crema was DESIGNED to cope with 1440 bodies per day. Not only that but it listed a lower incineration rate than that which was attested to under oath by German eyewitnesses, it therefore represents a LOW estimate of the capacity of the ovens...

The 1942 patent submitted by Topf, (the company that built the crematoria) for the specially designed ovens in Auschwitz. These ovens were designed to simultaneously consume multiple bodies with the limited expenditure of fuel. The design calls for the simultaneous introduction of both emaciated and unemaciated corpses in order to guarantee continual high temperatures through the emission of human fat. If only emaciated corpses were incinerated it was necessary to continously add fuel.

And here's the kicker. Prisoner Henryk Tauber would not have had access to Topf's patent application and yet the process this eyewitness describes is EXACTLY the same as the desin stipulated. It's called convergance of evidence... Based on Robert Jan's calculations it was perfectly feasible for the design of the rest of the Crematoria to keep supplying the ovens with enough bodies to keep the fires burning correctly.

The ovens were designed to burn bodies on an indutrial scale.

I ask you what the most likely explanation for designing them that way if the camps were merely going to be dealing with unexpected deaths from disease, over-work and starvation...

The Sadam reference is a great analogy and this truck issue seems to serve as a perfect illustration of possible lies about the Nazis. I also imagine it takes quite amount of carbon monoxide to kill someone?

I'm afraid the source for this is a contemporary SS report. It's called primary material and I'm afraid in historical research terms it doesn't get any more convincing than that. You want to debunk it then do your research find a copy and prove it's a fake...

[Pushkin]

Kageki,

I think we have established that you feel the Holocaust has been exaggerated by the Jews in their pursuit and maintenance of the state of Israel. I'm interested in how exactly they have managed it?

Given that the generally accepted number for those Jews that perished is around six million where did the discrepancy and the conspiracy begin?

Did the liberating troops make up the numbers and the conditions that they found?
Were there reams of documents forged, and witnesses briefed, in post war Europe to dupe the world into what had happened?
Did the perpetrators lie about what had occured and make it a much more horrific event than the reality?
Or as time passed have the worlds historians and chroniclers got together to broadly ramp up the numbers?
or is it a modern political bias driven by the ever present but never to be seen "they"?

because -and here is the tricky bit for you- if any one of them have happened in isolation from another it sets off all sorts of alarm bells. Do you really think the worlds historians are going to twiddle their thumbs (and lets be clear I've made this a lot easier for you by lumping them all into one voice with one opinion) whilst modern politicians twist the truth into something that you claim is so monstously wrong? or the liberating troops going to stay quiet as the Holocaust survivors give evidence of gas chambers that the troops didn't find? or, and most ridiculously of all, the Nazis when faced with the noose decide the best way of clearing their souls is to inflate the death toll six fold? or even, my favourite, that the "they" have hijacked the lot and tortured, silenced and bribed every other group.

To be clear this is not an argument from incredulity - its an impossibility. How can so many disparate and even contrary groups be so quiet throughout the biggest lie in history that one of them is trying to pull off? answer - they can't.

Which then forces your hand somewhat into the biggie - yes (drum roll) that all of them are in on it.

Troops and nurses from the Allied forces, thousands survivors and escapees from dozens of countries from dozens of camps, Nazis, historians, and thousands upon thousands of others are all bound by the big conspiracy.


Either all these people lied then, have lied for sixty years and lie to this day or none of them did.

[SDC]

Kageki,

I think we have established that you feel the Holocaust has been exaggerated by the Jews in their pursuit and maintenance of the state of Israel. I'm interested in how exactly they have managed it?

Given that the generally accepted number for those Jews that perished is around six million where did the discrepancy and the conspiracy begin?

Did the liberating troops make up the numbers and the conditions that they found?
Were there reams of documents forged, and witnesses briefed, in post war Europe to dupe the world into what had happened?
Did the perpetrators lie about what had occured and make it a much more horrific event than the reality?
Or as time passed have the worlds historians and chroniclers got together to broadly ramp up the numbers?
or is it a modern political bias driven by the ever present but never to be seen "they"?

because -and here is the tricky bit for you- if any one of them have happened in isolation from another it sets off all sorts of alarm bells. Do you really think the worlds historians are going to twiddle their thumbs (and lets be clear I've made this a lot easier for you by lumping them all into one voice with one opinion) whilst modern politicians twist the truth into something that you claim is so monstously wrong? or the liberating troops going to stay quiet as the Holocaust survivors give evidence of gas chambers that the troops didn't find? or, and most ridiculously of all, the Nazis when faced with the noose decide the best way of clearing their souls is to inflate the death toll six fold? or even, my favourite, that the "they" have hijacked the lot and tortured, silenced and bribed every other group.

To be clear this is not an argument from incredulity - its an impossibility. How can so many disparate and even contrary groups be so quiet throughout the biggest lie in history that one of them is trying to pull off? answer - they can't.

Which then forces your hand somewhat into the biggie - yes (drum roll) that all of them are in on it.

Troops and nurses from the Allied forces, thousands survivors and escapees from dozens of countries from dozens of camps, Nazis, historians, and thousands upon thousands of others are all bound by the big conspiracy.


Either all these people lied then, have lied for sixty years and lie to this day or none of them did.

Pushkin, I think from Kageki's posts (I won't quote chapter/ verse, he's been all over the map) that he has also suggested that, if the Holocaust was real, it may have been organized/ arranged by Zionist Jews themselves; so a kind of "MIHOP," not just "Take advantage/ LIHOP," to borrow terms from 9/11 conspiracies.

I may be wrong in this, because as I said his claims are very mixed and muddled and show signs of 1/ no research behind them, and 2/ being very confused. But just so you are aware...

By the way, Aleksandr Sergeevich, I thought "Evgenii Onegin" was the bee's knees. Keep up the good work!

[Sword_Of_Truth]

He may well be a shady character.

Run a search on "Ken McVay" and conviction.

No.

You provide the exact article you are talking about. Make a claim and back it up for once in your life.

[Pak43]

Professor Christopher Browning being cross-examined by David Irving..

Irving: "Is it not right, Professor, that our statistical database for arriving at any kind of conclusions for the numbers of people, killed in the holocaust by whatever means, we are really floundering in the dark are we not?"

Browning: "We have accurate lists of the deportation trains from Germany, in many cases the entire roster name by name. In terms again of France, the Netherlands, the countries from which there were deportations from Western Europe, we can do a very close approximation by trains, the number of people per train. In the area of Poland there were at least statistics in terms of ghetto populations and these ghettoes were liquidated completely, so we can to a fairly good rough figure of Polish Jews. We also have a fairly reliable prewar census and postwar calculations so one can do the subtraction"

Judge Gray then asks Browning for an estimate of the number of people gassed at the smaller death camps. Browning told him that postwar trials in the 1960's german prosecutors concluded that approximately 2 million Jews had been killed at Treblinka, Belzec, Sobibor and Chelmno.

Irving belittles these estimates, suggesting they are cavalierly made...

Browning then says:
"We have a very accurate reduction of the Lodz population, which trains went to Chelmno, when, and we can come very accurately to the number of people deported from Lodz to Chelmno, then one is on a little bit less secure grounds for the various other surrounding areas where we do not have a day-to-day deduction or a train b train calculation, but we do have statistics of what the populations were there before the whole operation began...We know how many Dutch transports went to Sobibor. We know which regions were cleared that were directed to Sobibor. We had the figures of the Jewish populations in these ghettoes before the liquidation and the number of workers that were shifted to some of the work camps"

Judge Gray and thanks him "That is very helpful"

On a personal level:
Why do I feel the need for a good drink when I end up describing this horror in such dry methodical terms?

[Pushkin]

SDCPushkin, I think from Kageki's posts (I won't quote chapter/ verse, he's been all over the map) that he has also suggested that, if the Holocaust was real, it may have been organized/ arranged by Zionist Jews themselves; so a kind of "MIHOP," not just "Take advantage/ LIHOP," to borrow terms from 9/11 conspiracies.

Ah, okay then I happily add the pre-War Zionists into the scheme. But how did they know the Nazis were even going to start some kind of extermination/transportation scheme that they could ambush? But if its MIHOP then the Zionists and the Nazi's were in cahoots......yep that's it. The Germans wanted lebensraum and the Jews wanted Israel so they plotted the whole Holocaust WWII thing to get that.....

I'm getting in a muddle here .... Kageki can you get me straightened out again? Thanks in advance.

SDC - thanks for the big up but Pushkin was the name of my dad's dog!

[SDC]

A little more on the trucks... There was a dispute among the German camp experts over whether to use cyanide or carbon monoxide. Cyanide won eventually, of course, but again: trial and error. It took a lot of thought and effort, on the part of the SS and other involved Nazi "experts," to work things out. The scale and industrial/ mass "production" character of the Holocaust was unprecedented. Previous large-scale genocides -- the case of the Armenians in Turkey, 1916-18, is often cited, and Hitler referred to it -- was much more "low-tech." Even the Sovs; when they decided to kill wholesale (see: Katyn, the Polish prisoners), they relied on shooting.

[HawksFan]

One thing about the Germans is that they are a meticulous people. Very detailed records were kept of just about everything that happened in the Reich especially shipping and recieving. There were records of how many were sent from a particular place and how many arrived at a particular place. Even the camps themselves kept detailed records of how many were gassed daily and how many were sent to such-and-such factory for work, etc. Many camps were in full operation until a matter of hours before liberation.

It sort of came back to bite them at the Nueremburg trials.

[kageki]

The only thing YOUR post proves is that you have just DECIDES that they died from typhus.

Yes and you decided those corpses were a result of systematic execution.

[kageki]

SDC

Ah, okay then I happily add the pre-War Zionists into the scheme. But how did they know the Nazis were even going to start some kind of extermination/transportation scheme that they could ambush? But if its MIHOP then the Zionists and the Nazi's were in cahoots......yep that's it. The Germans wanted lebensraum and the Jews wanted Israel so they plotted the whole Holocaust WWII thing to get that.....

I'm getting in a muddle here .... Kageki can you get me straightened out again? Thanks in advance.

SDC - thanks for the big up but Pushkin was the name of my dad's dog!

What do you make of the Balfour Declaration and the Transfer Agreement?

[kageki]

That article says that the book was self-published by one Jewish man in New Jersey. You may as well say that there's an 'English plan' to claim that the world is controlled by shape-shifting lizards, because David Icke says so.

You may as well say that one German man wrote a self-published and claim that there's a "German plan". Oh wait..

[MaGZ]

Even granting for the sake of debate that all these awful things about McVeigh are true, your argument is nothing more than an ad hominem abusive logical fallacy. "Don't believe this guy--he's [insert irrelevant negative characteristics]."

I would think the Jews could find a better front man than Ken McVey.

[JEROME DA GNOME]

Auschwitz's chief architect (Karl Bischoff) listed in June 1943 an incineration rate for Krema 2 of 1440 corpses per twenty four hours.

According to Cremation.org (http://www.cremation.org/faq.html) it takes 3 to 4 hours to cremate the human body.

At best, this would mean that Auschwitz had 180 ovens.

[MaGZ]

Just out of curiosity, how many of the posters in this thread have actually been to one of the camps? Not as a prisioner, obviously, but visited one?

I have (Dachau) and I can tell you it is a sobering and emotional experience. Just the feeling you get walking through the gate with the "Arbeit macht Frei" slogan overhead was almost overwhelming. Almost all conversation stopped at that point as everyone looked around and especially back towards the gate and the fences. You could acutally feel (well, I did) the suffering and misery and death. The crematorium out behind the camp was particularly chilling. I was only 14 at the time I visited.

And Dachau was one of the "nicer" camps. I can't even imagine what visiting a place like Auchwitz or Bergen-Belsen or one of the other notorious eastern camps must be like.

Anyone who doubts that the Holocaust happened needs to visit one of these places. Then tell me it never happened.

The reason they have tours of "Holocaust" camps is to generate the type of emotions you experience: emotion over reason. The same goes for all the "Holocaust" museums that are springing up in this country like mushrooms.

The Holocaust never happened.

[MaGZ]

Auschwitz's chief architect (Karl Bischoff) listed in June 1943 an incineration rate for Krema 2 of 1440 corpses per twenty four hours. When questioned about it's authenticity Robert Jan indicated that this document had been available for over 50 years. The original was available and not only that but there is a typed copy in another archive, given that there are two different copies in 2 different archives it was highly improbable they are forgeries.

This crema was DESIGNED to cope with 1440 bodies per day. Not only that but it listed a lower incineration rate than that which was attested to under oath by German eyewitnesses, it therefore represents a LOW estimate of the capacity of the ovens...

The 1942 patent submitted by Topf, (the company that built the crematoria) for the specially designed ovens in Auschwitz. These ovens were designed to simultaneously consume multiple bodies with the limited expenditure of fuel. The design calls for the simultaneous introduction of both emaciated and unemaciated corpses in order to guarantee continual high temperatures through the emission of human fat. If only emaciated corpses were incinerated it was necessary to continously add fuel.

And here's the kicker. Prisoner Henryk Tauber would not have had access to Topf's patent application and yet the process this eyewitness describes is EXACTLY the same as the desin stipulated. It's called convergance of evidence... Based on Robert Jan's calculations it was perfectly feasible for the design of the rest of the Crematoria to keep supplying the ovens with enough bodies to keep the fires burning correctly.

The ovens were designed to burn bodies on an indutrial scale.

I ask you what the most likely explanation for designing them that way if the camps were merely going to be dealing with unexpected deaths from disease, over-work and starvation...



I'm afraid the source for this is a contemporary SS report. It's called primary material and I'm afraid in historical research terms it doesn't get any more convincing than that. You want to debunk it then do your research find a copy and prove it's a fake...

How long does it take to cremate one body and how many crematory ovens were in the camp you noted?

If you would take a rational and empirical approach to you assertions then you will realize you are talking nonsense.

1440 bodies per day is 60 per hour which is one per minute. Not very likely.

[chillzero]

According to Cremation.org (http://www.cremation.org/faq.html) it takes 3 to 4 hours to cremate the human body.

At best, this would mean that Auschwitz had 180 ovens.

How long does it take to cremate one body and how many crematory ovens were in the camp you noted?

If you would take a rational and empirical approach to you assertions then you will realize you are talking nonsense.

1440 bodies per day is 60 per hour which is one per minute. Not very likely.

You both think that the rate of killing was one person after another? Don't you realise they were killed in large batches?

[Tolls]

You may as well say that one German man wrote a self-published and claim that there's a "German plan". Oh wait..

Well, can you show us when Kaufman became President of the US and proceeded to act on his plan?

Oh...wait...

[Tbone]

According to Cremation.org (http://www.cremation.org/faq.html) it takes 3 to 4 hours to cremate the human body.

At best, this would mean that Auschwitz had 180 ovens.

How long does it take to cremate one body and how many crematory ovens were in the camp you noted?

If you would take a rational and empirical approach to you assertions then you will realize you are talking nonsense.

1440 bodies per day is 60 per hour which is one per minute. Not very likely.

Why do you both think that:

a) the Nazi's cared whether or not a body was completely cremated before starting the next?

b) the bodies were burned one at a time?


They weren't holding a funeral for these people. You might do good to remember that.

[Matilda]

According to Cremation.org (http://www.cremation.org/faq.html) it takes 3 to 4 hours to cremate the human body.

At best, this would mean that Auschwitz had 180 ovens.

No.
Auschwitz had industrial ovens reaching very high tempreatures and running continuously. They were also murdering children, which would also affect the time. Also, they were burning more than one corpse at a time. They also cremated people in large pits because the ovens were not always enough.

So, no, it doesn't mean Auschwitz had 180 ovens.

http://www.nizkor.org/faqs/auschwitz/auschwitz-faq-07.html

The scientifically planned crematoria should have been able to handle the total project, but they could not. The whole complex had forty-six retorts, each with the capacity for three to five persons. The burning in a retort lasted about half an hour. It took an hour a day to clean them out. Thus it was theoretically possible to cremate about 12,000 corpses in twenty four hours or 4,380,000 a year.

But the well-constructed crematoria fell far behind at a number of camps, and especially at Auschwitz in 1944. In August the total cremation reached a peak one day of 24,000, but still a bottleneck occurred. Camp authorities needed an economic and fast method of corpse disposal, so they again dug six huge pits beside Crematorium Five and reopened old pits in the wood.

Thus, late in 1944, pit burning became the chief method of corpse disposal. The pits had indentations at one end from which human fat drained off. To keep the pits burning, the stokers poured oil, alcohol, and large quantities of boiling human fat over the bodies.

More here:
http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/topf/

[westprog]

According to Cremation.org (http://www.cremation.org/faq.html) it takes 3 to 4 hours to cremate the human body.

At best, this would mean that Auschwitz had 180 ovens.

Assuming that the most famous death camp the world has ever known followed the same cremation practices as your friendly local crematorium, yes. Otherwise it simply means that they had the capacity to cremate about two hundred bodies at a time.

As to whether an industrial-size oven burning huge numbers of bodies could possibly work more quickly than a small installation designed to respectfully process the remains of a loved one - perhaps a more useful example would be the destruction of cattle during the Mad Cow purge in the UK.

[Belz...]

Yes and you decided those corpses were a result of systematic execution.

False. History records the Holocaust. YOU deny it happened. That places the onus on YOU to prove it.

So far, all you've been doing is saying that it COULD be something else, but bare possibilities are not evidence.

[Belz...]

The reason they have tours of "Holocaust" camps is to generate the type of emotions you experience: emotion over reason. The same goes for all the "Holocaust" museums that are springing up in this country like mushrooms.

The Holocaust never happened.

Still waiting for that evidence...

[Cleon]

According to Cremation.org (http://www.cremation.org/faq.html) it takes 3 to 4 hours to cremate the human body.

At best, this would mean that Auschwitz had 180 ovens.

That site is referring to funerary cremation, not mass body disposal. Weak straw to grasp at.

[Belz...]

According to Cremation.org (http://www.cremation.org/faq.html) it takes 3 to 4 hours to cremate the human body.

At best, this would mean that Auschwitz had 180 ovens.

At what temperature ?

[JEROME DA GNOME]

Assuming that the most famous death camp the world has ever known followed the same cremation practices as your friendly local crematorium, yes. Otherwise it simply means that they had the capacity to cremate about two hundred bodies at a time.

Please explain how these ovens could fit 200 bodies at a time.

http://www.scrapbookpages.com/AuschwitzScrapbook/2005Photos/OvenFromDoor.jpg

[SDC]

What do you make of the Balfour Declaration and the Transfer Agreement?

Balfour was 1917. That was a different war. And the British have often regretted it.

Which transfer?

[JEROME DA GNOME]

At what temperature ?

Between 1,500 degrees F to 2,000 degrees F.

[SDC]

I've referred to this several times. I especially would like Atrain, Magz, Kageki and JdG and any other Holocaust deniers to see this, but everyone interested should be aware. A report from today's Assoc Press states that the German archives related to the Holocaust, held in Bad Arolsen for decades, are now open to researchers. The files had been entrusted to the International Tracing Service (ITS) of the International Committee of the Red Cross, and have been available for limited, mediated searching (that's a library term, meaning that the archival staff had to do the footwork, not the requester).

"Yesterday [28 Nov], the Red Cross and the German government announced that the last of the 11 countries that govern the archive had ratified a 2006 agreement to open the files to the public for the first time...

"The records are unlikely to change the general story of the Holocaust and the Nazi era, probably the most intensely researched 12-year period of the 20th century.

"But its depth of detail and original documentation will add texture to the history's worst genocide, and is likely to fuel a revival of academic interest in the Holocaust."

I know it will mean nothing to the deniers, whose belief in Jewish evil transcends all documentation and data, testimony and eyewitness accounts, photographs and confessions. But it should mean a lot to others.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/N/NAZI_ARCHIVE?SITE=TXMID&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

[Belz...]

3-4 hours at 2000F ? Did they burn all the bodies to ash, in the camps ?

[SDC]

This is from the same AP article I just quoted and linked to. Good news for anyone in North America or Israel who wants to research into the Holocaust:
"The U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington and the Yad Vashem Memorial in Jerusalem began receiving digital copies of the entire archive in August, allowing survivors and historians more access points."

[Pushkin]

Kageki. What do you make of the Balfour Declaration and the Transfer Agreement?


Kageki - you yourself have made it clear that this thread should be limited to a discussion of the Holocaust but if the moderators will allow me a little latitude...

As SDC has made clear the Balfour Agreement and declaration were designed in the immediate aftermath of the Great War. Is it your theory that these were intimately involved with the design and planning of the Holocaust?

The Transfer Agreement applies to a movement of 50000 Jews out of Germany and to Palestine in 1933. It was apparently a negotiation between Zionists and the German authorities and written up in a book by Edwin Black. It looks both well researched and controversial (Black's work not Kageki's). Kageki - I cant find any mention in the stuff online that these escapees helped in the design of the holocaust or indeed knew the full horror of what was awaiting those not lucky enough to escape 1933 germany. How does this fit into the plan?

And it really doesn't answer my previous post namely - even if, and its a big if, the Holocaust was designed with the knowledge of even one Jew how did they bring off the 1 million real deaths turning into 6 million? i would really appreciate it if you could read the thrust of my post 1580 about the ingredients for a post war conspiracy. The Transfer Agreement and the Balfour Declaration were all done and dusted before the Holocaust even started.

am i missing something here?


Thanks in advance

[drkitten]

Please explain how these ovens could fit 200 bodies at a time.

http://www.scrapbookpages.com/AuschwitzScrapbook/2005Photos/OvenFromDoor.jpg
[/QUOTE]

By using the other forty-seven ovens that aren't pictured in that photograph, and putting them into the ovens in small groups of four or so as the documented procedures, design papers, and related patent applications demanded (and as the surviving workers testify was the procedure). Of course, no modern funeary crematorium would group corpses together, but that was not only standard practice for the Nazi's, but a key aspect of the design to allow for greater throughput.

Fifty ovens, four people per oven, yields 200 cremations at a time. Run the ovens for 3 hours per group, 24 hours per day, and you get a capacity of about 1600 bodies per day, in-line with the design specifications.

[Belz...]

Please explain how these ovens could fit 200 bodies at a time.

http://www.scrapbookpages.com/AuschwitzScrapbook/2005Photos/OvenFromDoor.jpg

That's like showing one toilet from a big shopping mall and asking how they can possibly accomodate all the shoppers for a day.

[Pak43]

Auschwitz's chief architect (Karl Bischoff) listed in June 1943 an incineration rate for Krema 2 of 1440 corpses per twenty four hours.

According to Cremation.org it takes 3 to 4 hours to cremate the human body.
At best, this would mean that Auschwitz had 180 ovens.

How long does it take to cremate one body and how many crematory ovens were in the camp you noted?

If you would take a rational and empirical approach to you assertions then you will realize you are talking nonsense.

1440 bodies per day is 60 per hour which is one per minute. Not very likely.

Pop quiz hotshot?
Which of these figures is the more likely to be accurate?
a) The one from the guy who designed it specifically for the application of burning large amounts of bodies
or
b) Some figure pulled from a site relating to a completely different context.
or
c) The one denounced by someone who regards it as "not very likely"

Is this absolutely the best evidence you can come up with? Absolutely the best? I mean come on, I'd be embarrassed to enter a debate with the kind of weak, circumstantial evidence you've presented so far...

Right now I'm with Gravy, answer his damned question already...you've been dodging it for long enough....I'm out of this debate until you face Gravy's question...

[dudalb]

Between 1,500 degrees F to 2,000 degrees F.



I feel That being tempted by the Dark Side,Jerome is....
Seriously,guy, you are coming off like a Holocaust Denier who is not doing a very good job of shielding his beliefs.
If you want to defend the Denier's right to free speech and to puke out their garbage, I would agree with you, Making matyrs out of them is a mistake. But trying to defend their beliefs themselves is a big,big,mistake.

[LashL]

This is from the same AP article I just quoted and linked to. Good news for anyone in North America or Israel who wants to research into the Holocaust:
"The U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington and the Yad Vashem Memorial in Jerusalem began receiving digital copies of the entire archive in August, allowing survivors and historians more access points."


I just popped in to post the story about the Red Cross archives being opened, but I see that you've already got it covered.

Here's a link to the Reuters story anyway.

http://www.reuters.com/article/latestCrisis/idUSL28727088

[ktesibios]

Here (http://www.holocaust-history.org/~dkeren/cremation/gusen2.shtml) is a scan of a cremation report from the Gusen sub-camp, covering cremations between Oct. 26, 1941 and Nov. 12, 1941. The mean "production" was 43.33... corpses per day; on November 7 they cremated 94 bodies in 20 hours in a small 2-muffle crematorium (http://www.holocaust-history.org/~dkeren/cremation/gusen-krema.shtml) (the Auschwitz crematoria had a total of 52 muffles).

And here (http://www.holocaust-history.org/~dkeren/cremation/Furn-cap.shtml) is a report made in 1943 to SS-Brigadefuehrer Kammler about the capacity of the Aushwitz crematoria. It estimates their 24-hour capacity as 4,756 bodies.

And here (http://www.holocaust-history.org/~dkeren/cremation/topf-manual.shtml) are the manufacturer's operating instructions for the Auschwitz crematoria. Relevant bits:

Once the cremation chamber (muffle) has been brought to a good red heat (approximately 800C), the corpses can be introduced one after another in the cremation chambers.

Now the pulsed air blower situated to the side of the furnace should be switched on and run for about 20 minutes, ensuring that the two cremation chambers do not receive too much or too little fresh air...

As soon as the remains of the corpses have fallen from the chamotte grid to the ash collection channel below, they should be pulled forward towards the ash removal door, using the scraper. Here they can be left for a further 20 minutes to be fully consumed, then the ashes should be placed in the container and set aside to cool.

In the meantime, further corpses can be introduced one after the other into the chambers. The two coke furnaces must be fed with fuel from time to time.

After each incineration, the temperature rises in the furnace. For this reason, care must be taken that the internal temperature does not rise above 1100C (white heat). This increase in temperature can be avoided by introducing additional fresh air.

The contrast between the recommended practice of the modern funeral industry and that of an organization which needs to dispose of human bodies on an industrial scale should be obvious, as should the folly of expecting the former to be a guide to the capabilities of the latter.

These are primary source documents written by the very people who designed, built and operated the crematoria, Jerome. They trump the speculations of wannabee Nazi apologists. Moreover, thanks to the efforts of real researchers, this material is readily available online, where an iggerant uneddicated layman like myself could find them in less than a minute.

The availability of solid historical material is such that there is no excuse for remaining ignorant. Dig?

Now, let's put some of this in perspective. Between 1980 and 2003 the mean number of deaths per year in all of Los Angeles County was 60817.125, during which time the population varied from ca. 7,500,000 to ca. 9,900,000 (the number of deaths stayed at around 60,000/year while the population increased by over 2 million. We're getting healthier here). Source (http://www.laalmanac.com/vitals/vi11.htm)

At Auschwitz they built 5 crematoria which their own technical people expected to be capable of burning nearly 5,000 bodies in 24 hours. While the peak population of the entire Auschwitz complex was around 155,000, it was provided with the capacity to, in less than two weeks, dispose of the bodies of everyone who died in an entire year in a county with a population 63 times bigger. (total deportations to Auschwitz are estimated at about 1.3 million, but the number of prisoners in the camp complex at any one time peaked at about 155,000).

Obviously the camp administration was expecting a death rate many hundreds of times greater than that of a normal society, and they provided the infrastructure to cope with it.

One has to ask, why did they anticipate being so bountifully supplied with dead bodies? Why did they expect the inmates to die at such a rate that they would expend the money and effort to provide permanent facilities for disposing of corpses at such a rate?

More information and technical discussion here (http://www.holocaust-history.org/~dkeren/cremation/discussion.shtml) and here (http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/camps/auschwitz/crematoria/)

[timhau]

Please explain how these ovens could fit 200 bodies at a time.

http://www.scrapbookpages.com/AuschwitzScrapbook/2005Photos/OvenFromDoor.jpg

If I recall my visit correctly, that is a picture of the crematorium in Auschwitz I. The real death factory was Auschwitz II.

[Chaos]

I've referred to this several times. I especially would like Atrain, Magz, Kageki and JdG and any other Holocaust deniers to see this, but everyone interested should be aware. A report from today's Assoc Press states that the German archives related to the Holocaust, held in Bad Arolsen for decades, are now open to researchers. The files had been entrusted to the International Tracing Service (ITS) of the International Committee of the Red Cross, and have been available for limited, mediated searching (that's a library term, meaning that the archival staff had to do the footwork, not the requester).

"Yesterday [28 Nov], the Red Cross and the German government announced that the last of the 11 countries that govern the archive had ratified a 2006 agreement to open the files to the public for the first time...

"The records are unlikely to change the general story of the Holocaust and the Nazi era, probably the most intensely researched 12-year period of the 20th century.

"But its depth of detail and original documentation will add texture to the history's worst genocide, and is likely to fuel a revival of academic interest in the Holocaust."

I know it will mean nothing to the deniers, whose belief in Jewish evil transcends all documentation and data, testimony and eyewitness accounts, photographs and confessions. But it should mean a lot to others.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/N/NAZI_ARCHIVE?SITE=TXMID&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

I fear you are quite wrong. This means quite a bit to the deniers. The various Nazi fanboys infesting the relevant subforum at www.skepticforum.com (http://www.skepticforum.com) are already crowing about how this will spell the end of the "Ugly Myth", as they call reality.

I mean, just think of it... millions of documents more that they can ignore and distort in order to promote their lies... what´s not to like, for a Nazi fanboy?

[SDC]

I fear you are quite wrong. This means quite a bit to the deniers. The various Nazi fanboys infesting the relevant subforum at www.skepticforum.com (http://www.skepticforum.com) are already crowing about how this will spell the end of the "Ugly Myth", as they call reality.

I mean, just think of it... millions of documents more that they can ignore and distort in order to promote their lies... what´s not to like, for a Nazi fanboy?

Sad to say, you are right in this. A quick glance -- all I could stand, today -- shows statements along these lines: "and all these documents have been pored over for decades but none proves anything!" Or words to that effect. Terribly sad.

[SDC]

Chaos, I'm very sorry to say that you're right. I just glanced at that site (all I could stand, today), and some are claiming that there is nothing in all this material that proves a thing. What a waste.

[Pushkin]

I was following some of the links that Ktesibios put at the bottom of his latest post. Idly clicking through to a reference of a Sonderkommando who worked at Auschwitz by the name of Henryk Tauber. I can't post links but google him and click the first link.

It's a translation of his experiences from the transport from the warsaw ghetto to his eventual escape. It's not going to persuade Magz or Kageki but i thought it was worth mentioning for a few reasons.

1 it mentions an isolated case of an individual being burned alive
2 it talks about burning bodies outside in the summer months when the trains were coming so often they outstripped the capacity of the crematoria.
3 it's interesting how the historian Pressac simply won't accept anything that tauber didnt see first hand (for example the gassing of 200 SonderKommando) and how he corrects even the smallest errors unfailingly.
4 there is even a mention of 4 million Jewish deaths at Auschwitz towards the end which Pressac dismisses as propaganda.


its not an easy read.

[achtung circus]

Please explain how these ovens could fit 200 bodies at a time.



that you chose a picture of the ovens in Krema 1 which killed approximately 10,000 rather than a picture of the ovens of, say, Krema 2 where the industrial cremation took place.

Not unexpected, but interesting.

I do not have enough posts yet to include the images but they are readily available by Googling Krema 2 crematorium.

[JEROME DA GNOME]

By using the other forty-seven ovens that aren't pictured in that photograph, and putting them into the ovens in small groups of four or so as the documented procedures, design papers, and related patent applications demanded (and as the surviving workers testify was the procedure). Of course, no modern funeary crematorium would group corpses together, but that was not only standard practice for the Nazi's, but a key aspect of the design to allow for greater throughput.

Fifty ovens, four people per oven, yields 200 cremations at a time. Run the ovens for 3 hours per group, 24 hours per day, and you get a capacity of about 1600 bodies per day, in-line with the design specifications.

What you are stating here does not correlate with these statements:

According to a book entitled "Auschwitz" which I purchased at the camp, the three ovens had a capacity of 340 bodies in a 24 hour period, less than half the capacity of the gas chamber, which was 600 to 800 people. The gas chamber originally had no ventilation system, so it took some time to air out the room between gassings.
http://www.scrapbookpages.com/Poland/Auschwitz/Auschwitz08B.html

The blueprints for the crematorium at Auschwitz I show that there were three ovens when the crematorium was in operation.

The ovens were deep enough to hold two bodies, placed end to end. A third oven was installed at the end of 1941. Krema I was in operation until July 1943.

Do you have evidence that these statements are incorrect?




The photo above shows one of the two ovens which were reconstructed by the Soviet Union in 1947 when the main camp was turned into the Auschwitz Museum.

WTF???

[SDC]

I was following some of the links that Ktesibios put at the bottom of his latest post. Idly clicking through to a reference of a Sonderkommando who worked at Auschwitz by the name of Henryk Tauber. I can't post links but google him and click the first link.

It's a translation of his experiences from the transport from the warsaw ghetto to his eventual escape. It's not going to persuade Magz or Kageki but i thought it was worth mentioning for a few reasons.

1 it mentions an isolated case of an individual being burned alive
2 it talks about burning bodies outside in the summer months when the trains were coming so often they outstripped the capacity of the crematoria.
3 it's interesting how the historian Pressac simply won't accept anything that tauber didnt see first hand (for example the gassing of 200 SonderKommando) and how he corrects even the smallest errors unfailingly.
4 there is even a mention of 4 million Jewish deaths at Auschwitz towards the end which Pressac dismisses as propaganda.


its not an easy read.

The "4 mln" at Auschwitz alone, if I recall correctly, came out of the claims of the Polish communist government, while they were trying to claim Auschwitz (Oswiecim in Polish) as a primarily Polish and communist place of martyrdom. Serious scholarly estimates are in the 1.5 mln range for the whole camp complex, about 90% Jews.

And yes, JdG, the Auschwitz site was made into a museum postwar. Serious scholarship is done and I think there are books available for purchase there. Go visit. Danuta Czech's (curiously, the spelling "Czech" in English for the people of the Czech Republic is borrowed from the Polish -- go figure) book on the basics of Auschwitz is available in several languages, including at least one you seem to have some familiarity with. English.

Go read. You don't seem as hopeless as the other deniers. Read, listen, learn. But go.

[drkitten]

What you are stating here does not correlate with these statements:

Sure it does.


The blueprints for the crematorium at Auschwitz I show that there were three ovens when the crematorium was in operation.

If there was something designated "Auschwitz I," might there also have been something designated "Auschwitz II"? (Answer, yes, of course there was.) And a statement about how many ovens there were at Auschwitz I says nothing about how many there were in the entire complex, beyond the fact that there were at least three. Similarly, the mention of Krema I ("Krema I was in operation until July 1943.") suggests that there might have been Krema II or even more. Auschwitz II (aka Birkenau) had nearly fifty larger-scale ovens, organized as Kremas II-V.


From here (http://www.scrapbookpages.com/AuschwitzScrapbook/History/Articles/Birkenau03A.html)
Crematoria II and III were T-shaped brick buildings which were mirror images. Both are now nothing but ruins; they were blown up by the fleeing Nazis on Jan. 20, 1945, two days after the camp was abandoned. Today, these buildings are commonly known by their German name: Krema II and Krema III.

On the ground floor of both buildings were 5 large ovens where the bodies were cremated after being brought up on an elevator. Each of the ovens had 3 openings, called muffles or retorts, which means that there were actually 15 ovens which could each handle up to 3 bodies at a time.

... and of course, there were further ovens (16 more (http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/response-to-mattogno/notes.shtml)) in Kremas IV and V.








Do you have evidence that these statements are incorrect?

No more incorrect than is the observation that I have about 100 books on my office shelves. However, if you draw from this the inference that I own no more than 100 books, or that I have read no more than 100 books, your inference is incorrect. I simply don't keep the rest of my library in my office, and of course there are books I have read that I don't own at all.

[drkitten]

I just realized that JDG is partially contradicted out of his own quotations.



it takes 3 to 4 hours to cremate the human body.



According to a book entitled "Auschwitz" which I purchased at the camp, the three ovens had a capacity of 340 bodies in a 24 hour period,



The ovens were deep enough to hold two bodies, placed end to end.


Doing the math, this suggests a max of 8 duty cycles per 24 hour period per oven (since it takes 3 hrs per cremation), or 24 duty cycles total. Each oven was long enough for two bodies, so that would make 48 bodies in twenty-four hours.

That's not even 20% of the published capacity (that Jerome cited) of 340 bodies at Krema I per twenty-four hours.

Either the duty cycle was much shorter than 3 hours (of which I am confident), or the Germans did not simply lay two corposes "end to end" but piled them in in larger groups (which, given how wasted many of the bodies were, would have been easy to do). Either way, the individual numbers don't "play nice" with each other, suggesting that this approach of cherry-picking numbers may not be the best way to establish capacity.

[Darth Rotor]

Hitler told Chamberlain he would not start a war on Poland. He lied.

He was a coward also
I am going to nitpick here, funk, and point out to you that "coward" probably isn't a good epithet for Adoplh.

You don't tend to win two Iron Crosses (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Cross)on the Western Front, as courier/runner, if you are a coward.
Hitler served in France and Belgium as a runner for the 16th Bavarian Reserve Regiment (called Regiment List after its first commander), which exposed him to enemy fire.

Hitler was twice decorated for bravery. He received the Iron Cross, Second Class, in 1914 and the Iron Cross, First Class, in 1918, an honour rarely given to a Gefreiter.

However, because the regimental staff thought Hitler lacked leadership skills, he was never promoted to Unteroffizier
Sadly for an awful lot of people, what he saw on the Western Front didn't convince him that starting that kind of a mess again was a bad idea.

Tragic, really.

DR

[leftysergeant]

Kageki. What do you make of the Balfour Declaration and the Transfer Agreement?

The Transfer Agreement applies to a movement of 50000 Jews out of Germany and to Palestine in 1933. It was apparently a negotiation between Zionists and the German authorities and written up in a book by Edwin Black. It looks both well researched and controversial (Black's work not Kageki's). Kageki - I cant find any mention in the stuff online that these escapees helped in the design of the holocaust or indeed knew the full horror of what was awaiting those not lucky enough to escape 1933 germany. How does this fit into the plan?


There was a major obstacle to actually transferring the Jews of Germany to Palestine, in that the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem was kind of opposed to the whole idea, and a staunch supporter of the Nazis, and thus a valuable man to the over-all Nazi plans for the Middle East as a source of oil.

It may have actually been a sham to keep the Jews from panicing as the round-ups began, making it possible to maintain the illusion of the death camps as mere re-location centers.

[MaGZ]

I am going to nitpick here, funk, and point out to you that "coward" probably isn't a good epithet for Adoplh.

You don't tend to win two Iron Crosses (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Cross)on the Western Front, as courier/runner, if you are a coward.

Sadly for an awful lot of people, what he saw on the Western Front didn't convince him that starting that kind of a mess again was a bad idea.

Tragic, really.

DR

Hitler wanted to avoid the type of trench warfare mess of WW I. That is why he developed the concept of blitzkrieg. Hitler may not have been a great military tactician on every level but the invasion of France and the Low countries was largely successful due to his military genius.

[SpitfireIX]

Hitler wanted to avoid the type of trench warfare mess of WW I. That is why he developed the concept of blitzkrieg. Hitler may not have been a great military tactician on every level but the invasion of France and the Low countries was largely successful due to his military genius.


Oh, please. :rolleyes: The German Army had been developing Blitzkrieg tactics since the end of World War I. And the plan for the French campaign was devised by Erich von Manstein and Heinz Guderian; Hitler only approved it because it promised a relatively swift and cheap victory. See here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blitzkrieg) and here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_France). The history of World War II is replete with examples of Hitler's military ignorance; the fact that his decisions occasionally worked out well in no way qualifes him as a "military genius."

[westprog]

Oh, please. :rolleyes: The German Army had been developing Blitzkrieg tactics since the end of World War I. And the plan for the French campaign was devised by Erich von Manstein and Heinz Guderian; Hitler only approved it because it promised a relatively swift and cheap victory. See here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blitzkrieg) and here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_France). The history of World War II is replete with examples of Hitler's military ignorance; the fact that his decisions occasionally worked out well in no way qualifes him as a "military genius."

Plans to assassinate Hitler were shelved midwar when the Allies realised how much military assistance he was giving them. A lazy, stupid man with an absurd over-estimate of his own military capacity. Not many post war German autobiographies praising his contribution.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Plans to assassinate Hitler were shelved midwar when the Allies realised how much military assistance he was giving them. A lazy, stupid man with an absurd over-estimate of his own military capacity. Not many post war German autobiographies praising his contribution.

It wouldn't be his military acumen drawing all the attention if autobiographies were being written about him in the post-war period. ;)

[SpitfireIX]

It wouldn't be his military acumen drawing all the attention if autobiographies were being written about him in the post-war period. ;)


When I was taking a course called Modern Germany, I saw a copy of the Weekly World News with the headline "HITLER IS ALIVE: Hundred Year Old Nazi Dictator Found Alive in South America." Of course I bought it, and I showed it to my professor. He commented, "Yes, I saw that. Great scoop." :D

I cut out the article and kept it posted on my door for the rest of the school year. :)

[funk de fino]

I am going to nitpick here, funk, and point out to you that "coward" probably isn't a good epithet for Adoplh.

You don't tend to win two Iron Crosses (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Cross)on the Western Front, as courier/runner, if you are a coward.

Sadly for an awful lot of people, what he saw on the Western Front didn't convince him that starting that kind of a mess again was a bad idea.

Tragic, really.

DR

Nitpick all you want, thats what we are here for. I served in two conflicts and got three medals but I am scared of hypodermic needles. My dentist thinks I am a coward and I suppose in one way I am.

For nothing other than what happened at the end, he was a coward in my eyes. He took the cowards way out. Pathetic really. He died a coward if that is a more palatable description.

[Grayce]

I don't see why we have to just deny the Holocaust. Why not go for the biggie: WW2 never happened!

Prove that Hitler was around and supposedly led some political movement called "the Nazis" into war for world domination. And don't come dragging with unreliable references like facts, actual documents from the time or witnesses. They're all lies.

[Architect]

I don't see why we have to just deny the Holocaust. Why not go for the biggie: WW2 never happened!


Yea, Swedish history books don't even mention any of the battles your army took part in! And there's no sign of any bomb damaged buildings or battle sites anywhere in the country!!

;)

[achtung circus]

I don't see why we have to just deny the Holocaust. Why not go for the biggie: WW2 never happened!

Prove that Hitler was around and supposedly led some political movement called "the Nazis" into war for world domination. And don't come dragging with unreliable references like facts, actual documents from the time or witnesses. They're all lies.

Documents are forgeries, witnesses were tortured.

Sheesh.:D

[Gravy]

Please explain how these ovens could fit 200 bodies at a time.

http://www.scrapbookpages.com/AuschwitzScrapbook/2005Photos/OvenFromDoor.jpg

You are either being deliberately dishonest, or you research skills are so poor that you could not find out that there were more two crematorium ovens at Auschwitz.

Which is it? I'm guessing the former, since evidence had already been posted here about the extent and activity of the Krema, such as these statistics I posted:

In October 7, 1944, the strength of the sonderkommando (referred to as "heizer" = stoker/burner, in the official SS documents), was:

Krema II: day shift 84, night shift 85.
Krema III: day shift 84, night shift 85.
Krema IV: day shift 84, night shift 85.
Krema V: day shift 72, night shift 84.

That is, 663 altogether.

APMO, D-AuII-3a/1, Inventory No. 29723. See Czech, "Auschwitz Chronicle 1939-1945". p. 724. See also Document on display in the "Jewish Martyrdom" exhibit in Auschwitz Main Camp, listing 661 stokers in October 3, 1944.

So, Jerome, are you being dishonest, or are you really incapable of doing the most basic research?

[leftysergeant]

Hitler wanted to avoid the type of trench warfare mess of WW I. That is why he developed the concept of blitzkrieg. Hitler may not have been a great military tactician on every level but the invasion of France and the Low countries was largely successful due to his military genius.

The victory in France was more a result of the skill and the military virtue of the typical German soldier. Guderian had more to do with that than did Hitler. The Army actually disliked him immensely.

Hitler's military accumen is more clearly reflected in his decision to let the Luftwaffe finish off the Anglo-French forces at Dunkirk, his decision to shelve Opereration Seeloewe to go invade Russia, and his leaving Rommel twiddling his thumbs on the Pas de Calais waiting for the "real invasion."

The only thing he knew how to do well was to use people's hatred of one another to advance his own ends.

In that sense, the Holocaust seems logical, as irrational as it might seem to a non-sociopathic person. Everything about it is consistant with the designs of such a monster.

[JEROME DA GNOME]

You are either being deliberately dishonest, or you research skills are so poor that you could not find out that there were more two crematorium ovens at Auschwitz.

Which is it? I'm guessing the former, since evidence had already been posted here about the extent and activity of the Krema, such as these statistics I posted:



So, Jerome, are you being dishonest, or are you really incapable of doing the most basic research?



Do you have a link?

The proper thing to do would be to link to what you are quoting.

So, Gravy, are you being disrespectful to all the readers of your post intentionally, or are you simply unaware of common forum etiquette?
:boxedin:

[Corsair 115]

The victory in France was more a result of the skill and the military virtue of the typical German soldier. Also helpful was an Allied military leadership that was slow to react to the developing situation.

Hitler's military accumen is more clearly reflected in his decision to let the Luftwaffe finish off the Anglo-French forces at Dunkirk, his decision to shelve Opereration Seeloewe to go invade Russia, and his leaving Rommel twiddling his thumbs on the Pas de Calais waiting for the "real invasion." You could add his insistence on the V-1 and V-2 weapons programs, which consumed enormous amounts of resources for almost no military gain whatsoever; his insistence on revenge for the bombing of German cities rather than thinking in terms of defending against such attacks; and refusing to allow a withdrawal from Stalingrad, just to name a few more examples.

[achtung circus]

since I can't yet post a link the original document (forged, no doubt/sarc) is at Nizcor.

[achtung circus]

as are photographs lacking cherrypicking. So, dishonesty or lack of research skills remains an open question.

[SDC]

Do you have a link?

The proper thing to do would be to link to what you are quoting.

So, Gravy, are you being disrespectful to all the readers of your post intentionally, or are you simply unaware of common forum etiquette?
:boxedin:

JdG, go to a library. The world is not all "links."

[leftysergeant]

Also helpful was an Allied military leadership that was slow to react to the developing situation.

You could add his insistence on the V-1 and V-2 weapons programs, which consumed enormous amounts of resources for almost no military gain whatsoever; his insistence on revenge for the bombing of German cities rather than thinking in terms of defending against such attacks; and refusing to allow a withdrawal from Stalingrad, just to name a few more examples.

Oh, yes, there was also an extremely large reserve that was supposed to be backing up Army Group Center that Hitler sent south to secure an oil field, just in time for the start of Operation Bagration.

And it may have consumed a bit more time than he could spare when he tried to convince the Luftwaffe that the Me 262 should be fitted to carry bombs to serve as an attack aircraft while the 8th Air Force was blasting his factories to flinders.

Then there were a couple projects that Ferry Posche sold him, like the Jagdtiger that would collapse most of the bridges that were still standing in German-controlled territories at the time, and the Maus tank that would probably cause undue stress to most bridges standing today.

I have heard it stated that the idea for the Autobahn system was actually drawn up prior to hitler's rise to power. Seems like a lot of his best ideas were not entirely his, but he has to own a lot of the screw-ups.

[Corsair 115]

And it may have consumed a bit more time than he could spare when he tried to convince the Luftwaffe that the Me 262 should be fitted to carry bombs to serve as an attack aircraft while the 8th Air Force was blasting his factories to flinders.That Hitler blunder is somewhat overstated. His insistence on having the Me-262 be able to carry bombs actually meant little effective delay in the production of that fighter. The real problem was getting the engines into mass production with sufficient quality; that issue wasn't solved until mid-1944. So even without the bomb rack sidetrack there still would not have been reasonable numbers of Me-262s reaching service until the middle of 1944. And by that time it was too late.

Hitler's biggest mistake in regards to the Luftwaffe was putting Goering in charge of it.

[westprog]

It wouldn't be his military acumen drawing all the attention if autobiographies were being written about him in the post-war period. ;)

However, it wasn't unknown for German generals to write autobiographies, and some of them actually mentioned Hitler!

[JEROME DA GNOME]

JdG, go to a library. The world is not all "links."

What book should I check out of the library to find the information?

[Grayce]

Yea, Swedish history books don't even mention any of the battles your army took part in! And there's no sign of any bomb damaged buildings or battle sites anywhere in the country!!

;)
I know, it's all corrupt. We have to unite and stop ZOG right now. :D

[SpitfireIX]

What book should I check out of the library to find the information?


For an excellent general history of the Holocaust, I suggest you start with Tell Them We Remember: The Story of the Holocaust (http://www.amazon.com/Tell-Them-We-Remember-Holocaust/dp/0316074845), by Susan Bachrach.

For refutation of Holocaust denial, I recommend The Case for the Auschwitz: Evidence from the Irving Trial (http://www.amazon.com/Case-Auschwitz-Evidence-Irving-Trial/dp/0253340160/ref=pd_sim_b_title_5), by Robert Jan van Pelt, and Denying the Holocaust: The Growing Assault on Truth and Memory (http://www.amazon.com/Denying-Holocaust-Growing-Assault-Memory/dp/0452272742), by Deborah Lipstadt.

[SDC]

What book should I check out of the library to find the information?

I will assume you are serious about learning something about the Holocaust. You can start with Raul Hilberg, "The Destruction of the European Jews." According to Powell's Books in Portland OR (my personal favorite bookstore in the entire universe), the 3d ed, 2003, is 1,440 pages, so that should keep you busy. Earlier editions would be suitable as well.

[drkitten]

What book should I check out of the library to find the information?

I would start with the citation you had been given in the original post about which you complained:

Czech, "Auschwitz Chronicle 1939-1945". p. 724.

The book itself is available from Amazon re-sellers (http://www.amazon.com/Auschwitz-Chronicle-1939-1945-Danuta-Czech/dp/0805052380/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1196693015&sr=8-1), but you'd be better off finding a library copy, I suspect.

[Cleon]

For an excellent general history of the Holocaust, I suggest you start with Tell Them We Remember: The Story of the Holocaust (http://www.amazon.com/Tell-Them-We-Remember-Holocaust/dp/0316074845), by Susan Bachrach.

For refutation of Holocaust denial, I recommend The Case for the Auschwitz: Evidence from the Irving Trial (http://www.amazon.com/Case-Auschwitz-Evidence-Irving-Trial/dp/0253340160/ref=pd_sim_b_title_5), by Robert Jan van Pelt, and Denying the Holocaust: The Growing Assault on Truth and Memory (http://www.amazon.com/Denying-Holocaust-Growing-Assault-Memory/dp/0452272742), by Deborah Lipstadt.

Personally, I found Denying History: Who Says the Holocaust Never Happened and Why Do They Say It (http://www.amazon.com/Denying-History-Holocaust-Happened-Foundation/dp/0520234693/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1196693490&sr=8-1) by Michael Shermer and Alex Grobman to be much more informative than the Lipstadt book. It not only debunks the deniers' arguments, but goes into detail describing what historical research is and how it works--and why the deniers' "research" is anything but.

[terra]

If we can deny something which has filmed evidence and actual statements from people who witnessed it and are still living, can we actually stop it being removed from history once all that has gone? In 100 yrs could it be that it never happened?

We have no evidence to support this view because we wouldn't know, would we if something happened 150 yrs ago and was swept under the historical table?

[SpitfireIX]

Personally, I found Denying History: Who Says the Holocaust Never Happened and Why Do They Say It (http://www.amazon.com/Denying-History-Holocaust-Happened-Foundation/dp/0520234693/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1196693490&sr=8-1) by Michael Shermer and Alex Grobman to be much more informative than the Lipstadt book. It not only debunks the deniers' arguments, but goes into detail describing what historical research is and how it works--and why the deniers' "research" is anything but.


Thanks for the tip--I'll have to add that to my (far too long) reading queue.