[Moderated]The Holocaust never happened!

[Mainstreammedia]

What are some of the common "evidence" for this conspiracy-theory. And are there ANY of them that makes any sense?

My understanding is, that it is mostly believed by white suppremacist types, the hardcore CT'ers who buys into ALL CTs (Guys like Roxdog, or a couple of other characters on the LC board that jump to mind), but is it also popular among arabs?

[Unsecured Coins]

Given my grandmother was Hitler Youth and SAW it happen, I'm inclined to believe her saying it did rather some jackass teenager who swears it didn't.

[peteweaver]

My great uncle was one of the first British troops to liberate Belsen.
He had nightmares about the place for years.

There are plenty of servicemen who saw what the Germans had done with their own eyes.

[gumboot]

Holocaust Deniers tend to cite a few isolated pieces of "evidence". Some I can think of:

1. Some of the more extreme claims made by survivors (lamp shades made of human skin, etc) were found to be incorrect.
2. Gas chambers were not routinely used in German camps (let's just ignore camps outside Germany shall we!)
3. Chambers the size described by survivors are not present at the camps (what? Holocaust survivors didn't survey the camps and produced detailed scale plans! Pffft.)
4. Some (flawed) tests found no evidence of extensive gas use in one of the alleged gas chambers.
5. No written formal order has been found which directly orders the holocaust.

There's a few of the ones I've come across. Of course all of the above points have serious flaws, and do not contribute to proving the Holocaust did not happen. Not to mention they totally ignore the mountains of evidence that suggests the Holocaust did indeed happen.

-Gumboot

[Mainstreammedia]

God bless'em!
But the scary part is, that we are slowly losing those generations. (Also a great reason for spielberg to do something like his Shoah project) Will CT'ers have a leg to stand on when that happens?

[gumboot]

Oh, in answer to your last question, yes Holocaust Denial has a certain popularity in the Arab world. El Presidento of Iran, for example, is a big time Holocaust Denier.

-Gumboot

[Gravy]

Quick correction there, gumboot: most Iranians are Persian (but I'll bet you knew that).

[Alareth]

Most Persians don't really travel on flying carpets.

[Unsecured Coins]

Spaaaaaaaarta!!!

[gumboot]

Quick correction there, gumboot: most Iranians are Persian (but I'll bet you knew that).


Yes. My bad. :o Holocaust Denial is certainly popular amongst wheat-Muslims (Muslims from west countries where the primary crop is wheat, such as Iraq). I'm not sure how common it is amongst Rice-Muslims (Muslims from east countries where the primary crop is rice, such as Indonesia).

-Gumboot

[Corsair 115]

Of course, when someone wants to deny the Holocaust, one should ask them which part of it? The part about six million Jews being killed, or the part about five million other people, including such people as prisoners of war, Gypsies, homosexuals, the mentally and physically handicapped, and political dissidents, who were also killed. Or do they deny both parts?

[firecoins]

Most Persians don't really travel on flying carpets.
I am not Persian and I do travel on a flying carpet. Its made by Toyota.

[firecoins]

Of course, when someone wants to deny the Holocaust, one should ask them which part of it? The part about six million Jews being killed, or the part about five million other people, including such people as prisoners of war, Gypsies, homosexuals, the mentally and physically handicapped, and political dissidents, who were also killed. Or do they deny both parts?
They deny all of it. These anti semites aren't exactly friendly to Gypsies, homosexuals or the metanlly and physically hanidcapped.

[Unfit4Command]

One of the "points" I've seen made about how the Holocaust never happened is how the official number of people who were killed at Auschwitz has been slowing going down over the years. I guess that means that since the number has been revised, no one was really killed.
http://www.rense.com/general69/dim.htm

Hey! Sounds like the Twin Towers, I remember the day of the attacks seeing numbers close to 7,000 dead, then it went down to not even 3,000?! 9/11 never happened!

I see others go into more detail about how all of the photographs showing the murdered bodies were faked just to get the world to support a Jewish state. Sounds pretty retarded considering the fact that the holocaust didn't only target the people of the Jewish faith.

[Billdave2]

One of my former co-worker's father was a photographer in the army during WWII. He has a box of pictures taken at one of the concentration camps. One day he overheard some of the ladies that worked for him (he was the lab manager) talking about the holocaust. One lady mentioned that it "wasn't as bad as they say". The next day, when he handed out assignments for the day, her assignment was to look at the pictures his father took.

[gumboot]

One of my former co-worker's father was a photographer in the army during WWII. He has a box of pictures taken at one of the concentration camps. One day he overheard some of the ladies that worked for him (he was the lab manager) talking about the holocaust. One lady mentioned that it "wasn't as bad as they say". The next day, when he handed out assignments for the day, her assignment was to look at the pictures his father took.


Ouch.

-Gumboot

[parky76]

We all know the Holocaust happened. Even Holocaust deniers know it happened. How many Jews were killed? I personally compared an old census of European Jews from 1929 and compared that to post WW2 figures..and I came up with around 4 million dead Jews. Does it matter if it was 6 million or 4 million? No. These are not errors of fact..just errors of math and reliable census data.

[Unfit4Command]

We all know the Holocaust happened. Even Holocaust deniers know it happened. How many Jews were killed? I personally compared an old census of European Jews from 1929 and compared that to post WW2 figures..and I came up with around 4 million dead Jews. Does it matter if it was 6 million or 4 million? No. These are not errors of fact..just errors of math and reliable census data.

Exactly, I forgot all about looking at those figures. I remember seeing them a while ago during an argument about the holocaust on a different message board. I think the denier just responded with, "Those are New World Order numbers, fake!"

Or something like that.

[The_Fire]

Hench the reason why I like Spielbergs "Survivors of the Shoah" foundation as much as I do.
Theres nothing like being faced with the testimonies of those who effing LIVED it to counter this BS.
I would also like to present these idiots with some of the Danish policeofficers and resistance fighers who were interned in one of these camps after our local demonspawn of a german "overlord" decided to incacerate them. It was only the idiotic beliefs in an "aryan" race of which the Danes were supposedly direct decendants of which kept them from the gaschambers.

[Corsair 115]

They deny all of it. These anti semites aren't exactly friendly to Gypsies, homosexuals or the metanlly and physically hanidcapped.I only asked the question I did because from the (admittedly little) I've heard from Holocaust deniers is that they seem to focus exclusively on the Jewish part of it and ignore the millions of non-Jewish victims.

[portlandatheist]

When Ahmadinejad was interviewed on 60 minutes, he said something along the lines of "if the Holocaust happened, why don't they let us investigate?" Typical truther style. Besides plain simple denial, a lot of people either attempt to minimize it or claim that it was to the Jews advantage so they could get Israel. These people make me more upset than 9/11 deniers

[8den]

When Ahmadinejad was interviewed on 60 minutes, he said something along the lines of "if the Holocaust happened, why don't they let us investigate?" Typical truther style. Besides plain simple denial, a lot of people either attempt to minimize it or claim that it was to the Jews advantage so they could get Israel. These people make me more upset than 9/11 deniers

Just finished Vasily Grossman's account of WW2. A soviet Jew working in the Army's paper. The collected letters and articles of his wartime service "A Writer at War" is a seminal piece of war reporting. He was in Stalingard, his reports established the cult of hero around the sniper Vasily Zaitsev. But his account of Treblinka concentration camp was so powerful it was read into the record at the Nuremburg trials. It is singularly the most horrifying compelling, intense piece of prose, I've ever read, made all the more devastating by its matter of fact tone.

[firecoins]

I only asked the question I did because from the (admittedly little) I've heard from Holocaust deniers is that they seem to focus exclusively on the Jewish part of it and ignore the millions of non-Jewish victims.
So do us Jews.

[Corsair 115]

So do us Jews.That's entirely understandable though.

[Freddy]

They deny all of it. These anti semites aren't exactly friendly to Gypsies, homosexuals or the metanlly and physically hanidcapped.

Of course, it's hard to be friendly with anyone when you have no friends.

[beachnut]

What are some of the common "evidence" for this conspiracy-theory. And are there ANY of them that makes any sense?

My understanding is, that it is mostly believed by white suppremacist types, the hardcore CT'ers who buys into ALL CTs (Guys like Roxdog, or a couple of other characters on the LC board that jump to mind), but is it also popular among arabs?
There are will always be idiots who make up lies. The title of this tread is a lie and is repeated by idiots who have no courage to understand the truth and no ability to be able to use their brain for useful tasks.

[The Silver Shadow]

Most Persians don't really travel on flying carpets.
Then how do you think my father escaped the Iranian Revolution ;)

[sgf8]

One of my former co-worker's father was a photographer in the army during WWII. He has a box of pictures taken at one of the concentration camps. One day he overheard some of the ladies that worked for him (he was the lab manager) talking about the holocaust. One lady mentioned that it "wasn't as bad as they say". The next day, when he handed out assignments for the day, her assignment was to look at the pictures his father took.


I wanna know what her response was.

I just took a class on German History, we had to read several books on the Holocaust. The stories and pictures were horrific to read. From the discussions we had in class some tended to think that maybe people downplayed the Holocaust as not being all that bad, for the simple reason that we just don't want to believe that humans are capable of doing this to others. Maybe I am being gullible (not the first time) in believing this.

Susan

[CHF]

4 million...6 million....

As if history is to be re-written if only 4 million died.

[Curnir]

Well 'the Nuclear Holocaust never happened', Hitler's Holocaust did.

'Why people believe wierd things...' has a chapter about the holocaust deniers. It's well worth a read.

[Liszt]

another claim is that the Red Cross "only" found 250,000 (confirmed) dead at Auschwitz.

Note that the Red Cross also said that "only" 25,000 were killed during the Dresden bombing, and were out by a factor of 10 in that case.

(these figures may be a bit out, it is years since I read about this)

Also, the gas chambers at Auschwitz were converted to bomb shelters towards the end of the war, which is why only trace amounts of zyclon were found there. (the Russians rebuilt them in 1946 I believe)

The problem is that some countries lock Holocaust deniers away, instead of debating (or ignoring) them. What next? Lock up people who think the moon landings were fake?`

[Devil's Advocate]

The only error I've seen personally is some pictures that were sold off as 'people being shipped to concentration camps' in the back of trucks.
In reality, (the pictures was dated a year after the war) and they were German people going to a market somewhere in Germany. They had to travel a great distance because their home area was in ruins and had no market anymore.
But, someone presented it as a concentration camp convoy of Victims.

I think people argue the facts of history just because they like to argue, not because they believe themselves to be correct.

[Liszt]

The only error I've seen personally is some pictures that were sold off as 'people being shipped to concentration camps' in the back of trucks.
In reality, (the pictures was dated a year after the war) and they were German people going to a market somewhere in Germany. They had to travel a great distance because their home area was in ruins and had no market anymore.
But, someone presented it as a concentration camp convoy of Victims.

I think people argue the facts of history just because they like to argue, not because they believe themselves to be correct.

there are lots of little errors. One picture had smoke added to chimney in one of the concentration camps.

I sometimes think that Holocaust deniers actually forge their own stuff, then use it to back up their theories.

[Alareth]

Yes. My bad. :o Holocaust Denial is certainly popular amongst wheat-Muslims (Muslims from west countries where the primary crop is wheat, such as Iraq). I'm not sure how common it is amongst Rice-Muslims (Muslims from east countries where the primary crop is rice, such as Indonesia).

-Gumboot

Does that make the wheat eating muslims in the US corn-Muslims (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=86951)? ;)

[gumboot]

Does that make the wheat eating muslims in the US corn-Muslims (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=86951)? ;)


Only if you're an American...:p

-Gumboot

[The Great Hairy One]

I hold a particular dislike for Holocaust deniers. My grandfather fled Germany in 1935, specifically to escape the Nazis. He tried to convince his family to flee as well, but they were convinced that nothing that bad could happen in modern Germany. Most of them died in the camps. I've read the letters my great-grandmother wrote in the late 40's (she died in '51 due to health issues brought on by her imprisonment), detailing what happened to the family. Absolutely chilling.

Cheers,
TGHO

[Corsair 115]

Note that the Red Cross also said that "only" 25,000 were killed during the Dresden bombing, and were out by a factor of 10 in that case.Uh, 250,000 people were not killed in the firebombing of Dresden. Some estimates place the figure at about 100,000 but according to the German's own records the loss was somewhere in the 40,000 range.

[TOHMS]

I was born in Austria. I have plenty of relatives who lived there during Hitler's time. Let me tell you, if the whole thing never happened, I'd bet they'd be the first ones denying it, not apologizing for it.

[JQH]

We all know the Holocaust happened. Even Holocaust deniers know it happened. How many Jews were killed? I personally compared an old census of European Jews from 1929 and compared that to post WW2 figures..and I came up with around 4 million dead Jews. Does it matter if it was 6 million or 4 million? No. These are not errors of fact..just errors of math and reliable census data.

That means that 4 million Jews who were alive in 1929 were dead by 1945. Some would have died anyway of natural causes in the intervening 16 years (any acturaries care to give an estimate?) Some of those 4 million would have had children in the years between 1929 and their internment. Because they weren't around in 1929, they will not have been counted by your method.

Would it be more useful to make use of the population growth rates in the territories concerned and calculate what the Jewish population would have grown to if it had not been for the Holocaust? Would the difference between that figure and the actual 1945 Jewish population be a more reliable estimate of the number murdered?

Anyway, never mind playing around with numbers, how do the deniers explain the physical and eye-witness evidence?

[DonJunbar]

I've heard some Holocaust deniers trying to play with the numbers, bringing it down to 1 million killed in the Holocaust. Okay, one million deaths. That's really not so bad, is it? Wait, don't answer that.

They deny all of it. These anti semites aren't exactly friendly to Gypsies, homosexuals or the metanlly and physically hanidcapped.

Funny considering most of them are mentally handicapped.

Yes. My bad. :o Holocaust Denial is certainly popular amongst wheat-Muslims (Muslims from west countries where the primary crop is wheat, such as Iraq). I'm not sure how common it is amongst Rice-Muslims (Muslims from east countries where the primary crop is rice, such as Indonesia).

-Gumboot

Not sure about Indonesia but I've spoken to many Malaysian anti-Semites.

[Mojo]

We all know the Holocaust happened. Even Holocaust deniers know it happened.


The irony is that holocaust deniers generally appear to be the sort of people who approve of the holocaust.

[Big Les]

Various museums, including the Imperial War Museum here in Britain, have extensive oral/video history archives of survivor and liberating military testimony, not to mention documentary and artefact evidence. Don't worry, it will always be possible to refute these scumbags, even when the last Tommy, GI, and survivor have died. Try entering "concentration camp" in the various sections accessible at this page. (http://www.iwmcollections.org.uk)

The oral history (http://www.iwmcollections.org.uk/qrySound.asp) section alone yields 285 results, and that's just the stuff that's been made available online (and catalogued using those keywords). If you search with the "sound bite" option ticked, you can hear snippets from 20 of these interviews.

As for pictures...http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_84524694a1027550b.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=6965)The crematorium oven at Vught concentration camp. In the foreground is a pile of the ashes of human bodies.

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_84524694a16d330b1.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=6966)Concrete operating table for the dissection of dead prisoners at Vught concentration camp.

And so it goes on (http://www.iwmcollections.org.uk/qryPhotoImg.asp) - photos (144 online with images) of the mass graves, of individuals, all the sort of stuff you'll have seen before and more. Worth a look.

[Mojo]

There is also the judgment in Irving v Penguin Books & Lipstadt:

http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/QB/2000/115.html

[MaGZ]

What are some of the common "evidence" for this conspiracy-theory. And are there ANY of them that makes any sense?

My understanding is, that it is mostly believed by white suppremacist types, the hardcore CT'ers who buys into ALL CTs (Guys like Roxdog, or a couple of other characters on the LC board that jump to mind), but is it also popular among arabs?

The best historical revisionist source on the ‘holocaust’ is the book The Hoax of the Twentieth Century.

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v11/v11p251_Butz.html

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Here's fifty thousand people that the Holocaust Deniers don't want you to speak to. (http://tc.usc.edu/vhftc/(hgewk2zq0bszz345fp3sbqbj)/menu.aspx)

[MaGZ]

God bless'em!
But the scary part is, that we are slowly losing those generations. (Also a great reason for spielberg to do something like his Shoah project) Will CT'ers have a leg to stand on when that happens?

If anything more and more people are starting to question the ‘holocaust’. I can remember when the first book to challenge the story came out in 1969 called the Myth of the Six Million. The are more holocaust skeptics today than ever.

http://www.ihr.org/books/hoggan/Myth_TOC.html

[MaGZ]

Oh, in answer to your last question, yes Holocaust Denial has a certain popularity in the Arab world. El Presidento of Iran, for example, is a big time Holocaust Denier.

-Gumboot

Yes, Iran is leading the way.

IRAN HOLOCAUST CONFERENCE
DECEMBER 2006
http://www.jewwatch.com/jew-holocaust-revisionism-iran-conference-2006.html

[westprog]

What are some of the common "evidence" for this conspiracy-theory. And are there ANY of them that makes any sense?

My understanding is, that it is mostly believed by white suppremacist types, the hardcore CT'ers who buys into ALL CTs (Guys like Roxdog, or a couple of other characters on the LC board that jump to mind), but is it also popular among arabs?

I've been discussing this on other groups. As with other CT's, they focus on tiny anomalies while ignoring the obvious.

It's known that the Nazis arrested Jews all over Europe, and took them away from where they were living. After the war, millions of them were gone. Given that fact, analysis of the paint on gas chamber walls isn't especially relevant.

They also have the belief that Jews and Gentiles all over Europe were able to conspire to create imaginary families that lived in their street, to pretend that the Germans took them away, and that they never came back.

[Unfit4Command]

Yes, Iran is leading the way.

IRAN HOLOCAUST CONFERENCE
DECEMBER 2006
http://www.jewwatch.com/jew-holocaust-revisionism-iran-conference-2006.html

What are your views on the Holocaust, MaGZ? Were Jews and others murdered by the Nazi's at concentration camps? Or is it just Jewish propaganda? Or something else...

[MaGZ]

Of course, when someone wants to deny the Holocaust, one should ask them which part of it? The part about six million Jews being killed, or the part about five million other people, including such people as prisoners of war, Gypsies, homosexuals, the mentally and physically handicapped, and political dissidents, who were also killed. Or do they deny both parts?

Holocaust skeptics reject the premise that there was a plan to exterminate the Jews or any other group of people. There were deaths from starvation and disease in the relocation camps but no routine of gassing or executions.

[westprog]

Oh, in answer to your last question, yes Holocaust Denial has a certain popularity in the Arab/Islamic Middle East world. El Presidento of Iran, for example, is a big time Holocaust Denier.

-Gumboot

AFAIK, there's no mention of the Holocaust in any educational institution anywhere in the Arab/Islamic Middle East world. (I'm not asserting this as a positive fact, but it's something I've heard).

There was a program on the BBC the night before last on modern anti-Semitism, which had an interview from an Arab tv program where they were seriously discussing the issue of Jews kidnapping Christian children to sacrifice them for Passover.

[westprog]

They deny all of it. These anti semites aren't exactly friendly to Gypsies, homosexuals or the metanlly and physically hanidcapped.

How about Russian anti-semites? I'm sure they don't deny that millions of Russians were killed.

[MaGZ]

We all know the Holocaust happened. Even Holocaust deniers know it happened. How many Jews were killed? I personally compared an old census of European Jews from 1929 and compared that to post WW2 figures..and I came up with around 4 million dead Jews. Does it matter if it was 6 million or 4 million? No. These are not errors of fact..just errors of math and reliable census data.

Butz estimates the deaths of the Jews from ALL causes in the war at a quarter million.

[Gravy]

The best historical revisionist source on the ‘holocaust’ is the book The Hoax of the Twentieth Century.

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v11/v11p251_Butz.html

By "best" you mean "vile quasi-Nazi scum," right, MaGZ?

You don't actually admire Nazis and those who long for the Reich, do you? Or are you one of them?

[Zep]

The best historical revisionist source on the ‘holocaust’ is the book The Hoax of the Twentieth Century.

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v11/v11p251_Butz.htmlThe writer of that trash claims basically that there is no evidence of all sorts of stuff, when in fact there is mountains of evidence. Not just oral evidence, as he claims, but photographic and written evidence by the Nazis themselves. Not to mention the physical evidence of and in the death camps that has somehow escaped his research as well.

My aunt was with the British troops who liberated Bergen-Belsen, as a Red Cross worker with UNRAA. As a young woman, she was horrified by what they found. She worked at the Bergen-Belsen DP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bergen-Belsen_DP_camp) camp nearby. And had to help deal with the people being "rescued" from that place alone. Even decades later, she had the greatest difficulty in telling us kids about that place...

So anyone who trots out this pile of apologetic trash about "lack of evidence" will get VERY short shrift from me.

[westprog]

Uh, 250,000 people were not killed in the firebombing of Dresden. Some estimates place the figure at about 100,000 but according to the German's own records the loss was somewhere in the 40,000 range.

Ironically a major source for exagerrating the death toll was David Irving. A lot of Soviet information was dubious as well.

[Zep]

Butz estimates the deaths of the Jews from ALL causes in the war at a quarter million.Oh well that's all right then. :rolleyes:

Butz can estimate all he likes. The facts are something he has yet to come to grips with. And until he does, he isn't worth spitting on, in my book.

[Gravy]

Butz estimates the deaths of the Jews from ALL causes in the war at a quarter million.Quasi-Nazi idiocy. Why do you support Holocaust deniers, MaGZ? What do you get out of it?

Some Holocaust deniers argue that Butz's book has never been refuted by mainstream scholars, but in fact many of his arguments have been thoroughly debunked in John C. Zimmerman, Holocaust Denial: Demographics, Testimonies and Ideologies (University Press of America, 2000), and in Deborah Lipstadt, Denying the Holocaust (The Free Press, 1993). Online refutations have been posted by sites such as www.Nizkor.org (http://www.nizkor.org/) and www.anti-rev.org (http://www.anti-rev.org/).http://www.adl.org/learn/ext_us/butz.asp?LEARN_Cat=Extremism&LEARN_SubCat=Extremism_in_America&xpicked=2&item=butz

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Butz estimates the deaths of the Jews from ALL causes in the war at a quarter million.


Please submit your evidence that Butz should not be doused in iodine and fed feet-first into a wood-chipper.

[westprog]

Holocaust skeptics reject the premise that there was a plan to exterminate the Jews or any other group of people. There were deaths from starvation and disease in the relocation camps but no routine of gassing or executions.

This is at least a plausible approach, but it's usually a cloak for holocaust-denial-lite, much as intelligent design is a cloak for creationism.

It may be that there wasn't a single master plan to exterminate the Jews in camps. However, there was a policy to round up all the Jews in Europe. When the war was over, vast numbers of them were dead. (I'm not sure of the proportions). It's possible to claim that they didn't kill them by gassing or execution - but regardless, they died because the Nazis wanted them dead.

The German Army rounded up many thousands of British and American servicemen as prisoners of war. In spite of the shortage of food, and Allied bombing, they managed to feed them throughout the war, and most of them survived. It wasn't the case that circumstances made it impossible to keep them alive. The Jews could have been kept alive. They were killed instead.

[westprog]

Butz estimates the deaths of the Jews from ALL causes in the war at a quarter million.

In that case, where did the other Jews go?

If the Germans rounded up every European Jew they could find, then they should all have been waiting to be liberated in Auschwitz at the end of the war. They were gone.

[MaGZ]

This is at least a plausible approach, but it's usually a cloak for holocaust-denial-lite, much as intelligent design is a cloak for creationism.

It may be that there wasn't a single master plan to exterminate the Jews in camps. However, there was a policy to round up all the Jews in Europe. When the war was over, vast numbers of them were dead. (I'm not sure of the proportions). It's possible to claim that they didn't kill them by gassing or execution - but regardless, they died because the Nazis wanted them dead.

The German Army rounded up many thousands of British and American servicemen as prisoners of war. In spite of the shortage of food, and Allied bombing, they managed to feed them throughout the war, and most of them survived. It wasn't the case that circumstances made it impossible to keep them alive. The Jews could have been kept alive. They were killed instead.

As the war continued, the Final Solution to the Jewish problem was to relocate them outside Europe toward the east. There never was a planned program of extermination. Jews were placed in relocation camps for the same reason Japanese, Germans, and Italians, were placed in camps in the US.

Look at what happened in the Andersonville POW camp in Georgia during the Civil War.

[David Swidler]

As the war continued, the Final Solution to the Jewish problem was to relocate them outside Europe toward the east. There never was a planned program of extermination. Jews were placed in relocation camps for the same reason Japanese, Germans, and Italians, were placed in camps in the US.

Look at what happened in the Andersonville POW camp in Georgia during the Civil War.

Total BS.

Tell it to my sixty great aunts, uncles and cousins murdered by the SS Einsatzgruppen in Poland and Lithuania in 1941-42, for the heinous crime of being Jewish.

Tell it to my grandparents, all of whom survived brutal labor camps by the skin of their teeth.

Tell it to the Nazi officials tried at Nuremberg, not one of whom denied the crimes of which they were accused.

Tell it to Adolph Eichmann, who, despite the very public opportunity afforded him at his trial in Israel, never even suggested he had not arranged for the deportation and murder of millions.

But for your own sake, take an honest look at yourself and ask: what makes me want to hate Jews so much, to minimize the suffering of millions?

[CHF]

In reality, (the pictures was dated a year after the war) and they were German people going to a market somewhere in Germany. They had to travel a great distance because their home area was in ruins and had no market anymore.
But, someone presented it as a concentration camp convoy of Victims.

I've seen the same logic used to deny war crimes during the Balkan wars: use one error/lie to prove that all accusations are thus false.

"CNN once showed a funeral and said it was a Muslim victim killed by Serbs. In reality it was a Serb killed by Muslims. Therefor the Serbs didn't commit war crimes."

False reports or outright lies can be found in any war. I'm sure there were false statements made by refugees fleeing the Khamer Rouge. Doesn't mean Pol Pot was a swell guy.

[CHF]

Butz estimates the deaths of the Jews from ALL causes in the war at a quarter million.

The Einsatzgruppen (death squads) ALONE killed 2 million people - most of them Jews.

I'd wish I were surprised by the sight of twoofers buying into Holocaust Denial but I've seen it too many times now.

[Oliver]

The Einsatzgruppen (death squads) ALONE killed 2 million people - most of them Jews.

I'd wish I were surprised by the sight of twoofers buying into Holocaust Denial but I've seen it too many times now.


I've seen an ex-jewish Neo-Nazi who believed in that. :eye-poppi
There is nothing on this planet that could shock me anymore after that guy.

[aggle-rithm]

There never was a planned program of extermination.

"Oops! Sorry about the extermination. My bad!"

[beachnut]

Holocaust skeptics reject the premise that there was a plan to exterminate the Jews or any other group of people. There were deaths from starvation and disease in the relocation camps but no routine of gassing or executions.
In Germany you would be in jail. Ignorance is the reason you believe in lies of biots and white power low IQ stupid white guys who biggest achievement is hate. Your ideas on this are wrong and the neoNazi sites you get your false information from are trash heaps of lies and hate.

only the top dolts in the world now beleive with you - how long have you been in the idiot world of neo-Nazi scum

[westprog]

As the war continued, the Final Solution to the Jewish problem was to relocate them outside Europe toward the east. There never was a planned program of extermination. Jews were placed in relocation camps for the same reason Japanese, Germans, and Italians, were placed in camps in the US.

Look at what happened in the Andersonville POW camp in Georgia during the Civil War.

The Japanese, Germans and Italians interned in the US were still alive, for the most part, at the end of the war, as were the British and American soldiers held as prisoners. The Jews weren't. That wasn't an accident.

I don't find it impossible that some Nazis had some idea in the back of their minds about doing something with the Jews that didn't involve killing them. What they did do did involve killing them.

[headscratcher4]

Irving, among other things, likes argues that no written orders, and that many of the deaths were from things like Typhoid and not a specific act such as driving people into gas vans and gas chambers. What I've never understood is, say it is ONLY a million, it is a million that died because German policy put them in a position where they could die...I know, he argues then that the exageration of the deaths by Jews thus constitutes a falsification in order to justify Isreal and other Jews claims for special treatment etc.

Anyway, I am Just finishing Albert Speer and his Battle with Truth by Sereny. Facinating and frightening. The only conclusion is that the Top Brass knew what the grunts doing the killing knew. It was policy. It was intended. They were sorry they didn't get more.

[westprog]

Anyway, I am Just finishing Albert Speer and his Battle with Truth by Sereny. Facinating and frightening. The only conclusion is that the Top Brass knew what the grunts doing the killing knew. It was policy. It was intended. They were sorry they didn't get more.

You can't kill millions of people by accident. It was a vast, costly and difficult operation. They plucked Jews wholesale out of the Ghettos, and they lifted individual Jews from among their Gentile neighbours one at a time.

[headscratcher4]

You can't kill millions of people by accident.

That is exactly right.

Unless you are Christopher Columbus and the crew of early ships exploring the "new world" ..cough, cough.

[Pak43]

You might want to read "History on Trial: My day in court with David Irving" by Deborah E Lipstadt for an account of her libel trial with David Irving.

A lot of the holocaust denier theories are propounded by Irving in this court case...needless to say to no effect...It's an excellent read, well written and the British judicial system actually comes out of it rather well...

[Belz...]

If anything more and more people are starting to question the ‘holocaust’. I can remember when the first book to challenge the story came out in 1969 called the Myth of the Six Million. The are more holocaust skeptics today than ever.

http://www.ihr.org/books/hoggan/Myth_TOC.html

Well, well, well. Our resistent anti-semite denies the reality of the Holocaust. What a surprise! :rolleyes:

[A-Train]

By "best" you mean "vile quasi-Nazi scum," right, MaGZ?

You don't actually admire Nazis and those who long for the Reich, do you? Or are you one of them?

I don't long for the Reich, but I do long for the truth.

Gravy, it seems you always play the Nazi card, and wallow in cheap emotionalism, when you have no rational arguments to offer.

[Belz...]

We ARE talking about the Holocaust, A-Train. How do you NOT mention the Nazis ?

Besides, our friend MaGZ has very interesting opinions on the matter...

[sgf8]

In Germany you would be in jail. Ignorance is the reason you believe in lies of biots and white power low IQ stupid white guys who biggest achievement is hate. Your ideas on this are wrong and the neoNazi sites you get your false information from are trash heaps of lies and hate.

only the top dolts in the world now beleive with you - how long have you been in the idiot world of neo-Nazi scum

Maybe I'm not reading what you are reading. I don't see why you are attacking him for being a Nazi.

As I have been reading this thread it seems as if he is just telling us what the holocaust deniers are saying. Which is what the OP asked in the first place, how can holocaust deniers continue to believe.

Susan

[twinstead]

I don't long for the Reich, but I do long for the truth.

Gravy, it seems you always play the Nazi card, and wallow in cheap emotionalism, when you have no rational arguments to offer.

This forum and the internet in general are FULL of rational arguments that support the holocaust. This very thread has tons of evidence.

[Alareth]

We ARE talking about the Holocaust, A-Train. How do you NOT mention the Nazis ?

Besides, our friend MaGZ has very interesting opinions on the matter...

A-Train is part of the anti-semite chorus. He's danced around the issue with directly admitting it on these forums just like MaGZ.

[Corsair 115]

Maybe I'm not reading what you are reading. I don't see why you are attacking him for being a Nazi.

As I have been reading this thread it seems as if he is just telling us what the holocaust deniers are saying. Read more of MaGZ's posts from other threads. The picture will then become clearer.

[Loss Leader]

As the war continued, the Final Solution to the Jewish problem was to relocate them outside Europe toward the east. There never was a planned program of extermination. Jews were placed in relocation camps for the same reason Japanese, Germans, and Italians, were placed in camps in the US.


It's so sad because the Nazis had a reputation of being so efficient in all other areas. Unfortunately, when it came to maintaining relocation camps, they just couldn't manage the program effectively.

I feel very bad that they were unable to feed all of those refugees appropriately. The pictures I saw of how they looked when the camps were liberated showed they had lost a great deal of weight. The really sad part is that they were able to get sufficient food to their own troops guarding the camps and that all of the civilians living near the camps had sufficient food as well.

But I'll tell you that the guy who accidentally didn't hook the shower room up to a water suppy had to be the worst Nazi in the third reich. Then when the Nazis negligently dropped Zyklon B into the shower room, that just compounded the error. You'd think the twenty solid minutes of screaming, crying, gagging and moaning would have alerted them to the problem.

And whose idea was is to pull the fillings out of the refugees' teeth? I mean, maybe Germany needed the gold for the war effort but that certainly just exacerbated any health problems in the camps. Some SS guard gets Bonehead Of The Year for that one.

Packing the rairway cars so tight that the Jews inside couldn't even sit down for the several day ride to the camps was, well, not good resource management. A lot of those people died in the cars and never even got to the refugee camps. And I heard that the guy who put together those train schedules was put on trial. How did that turn out?

In all, that vaunted German efficiency was missing from the big relocation project. Let's hope that next time they're able to do a better job.

[headscratcher4]

I don't long for the Reich, but I do long for the truth.




I realize you are likely a troll...but how will you know the truth? Comfrotable with the level of scholarship and objectivity in Terhan?

[headscratcher4]

It's so sad because the Nazis had a reputation of being so efficient in all other areas. Unfortunately, when it came to maintaining relocation camps, they just couldn't manage the program effectively.

I feel very bad that they were unable to feed all of those refugees appropriately. The pictures I saw of how they looked when the camps were liberated showed they had lost a great deal of weight. The really sad part is that they were able to get sufficient food to their own troops guarding the camps and that all of the civilians living near the camps had sufficient food as well.

But I'll tell you that the guy who accidentally didn't hook the shower room up to a water suppy had to be the worst Nazi in the third reich. Then when the Nazis negligently dropped Zyklon B into the shower room, that just compounded the error. You'd think the twenty solid minutes of screaming, crying, gagging and moaning would have alerted them to the problem.

And whose idea was is to pull the fillings out of the refugees' teeth? I mean, maybe Germany needed the gold for the war effort but that certainly just exacerbated any health problems in the camps. Some SS guard gets Bonehead Of The Year for that one.

Packing the rairway cars so tight that the Jews inside couldn't even sit down for the several day ride to the camps was, well, not good resource management. A lot of those people died in the cars and never even got to the refugee camps. And I heard that the guy who put together those train schedules was put on trial. How did that turn out?

In all, that vaunted German efficiency was missing from the big relocation project. Let's hope that next time they're able to do a better job.


you make a number of good points. Funny how they stupidly placed all of those orders for ovens and gas chamber equipment that they clearly didn't need...oh, wait, Frank Lutenberg (sp?) proved they were only for delousing....lots of louses running around in those over crowded train cars.

And, what a waste of time Himmler's Posnan speech was in 1943 -- given that there was nothing going on. Seems so inefficient...no wonder Speer left early (wink), why stick around if there was nothing to hear?

[David Swidler]

It's so sad because the Nazis had a reputation of being so efficient in all other areas. Unfortunately, when it came to maintaining relocation camps, they just couldn't manage the program effectively.

I feel very bad that they were unable to feed all of those refugees appropriately. The pictures I saw of how they looked when the camps were liberated showed they had lost a great deal of weight. The really sad part is that they were able to get sufficient food to their own troops guarding the camps and that all of the civilians living near the camps had sufficient food as well.

But I'll tell you that the guy who accidentally didn't hook the shower room up to a water suppy had to be the worst Nazi in the third reich. Then when the Nazis negligently dropped Zyklon B into the shower room, that just compounded the error. You'd think the twenty solid minutes of screaming, crying, gagging and moaning would have alerted them to the problem.

And whose idea was is to pull the fillings out of the refugees' teeth? I mean, maybe Germany needed the gold for the war effort but that certainly just exacerbated any health problems in the camps. Some SS guard gets Bonehead Of The Year for that one.

Packing the rairway cars so tight that the Jews inside couldn't even sit down for the several day ride to the camps was, well, not good resource management. A lot of those people died in the cars and never even got to the refugee camps. And I heard that the guy who put together those train schedules was put on trial. How did that turn out?

In all, that vaunted German efficiency was missing from the big relocation project. Let's hope that next time they're able to do a better job.

Nominated.

[Loss Leader]

Frank Lutenberg (sp?)


Fred Leuchter?

And if you haven't yet, watch the documentary "Mr. Death." He has to be one of the most fascinating characters in the entire Holocaust denial movement.


Nominated.


Woo hoo!

[headscratcher4]

Fred Leuchter?

And if you haven't yet, watch the documentary "Mr. Death." He has to be one of the most fascinating characters in the entire Holocaust denial movement.





Woo hoo!

That's it. I saw the documentary. It was terrific. If that is the kind of "truth" A-Train is looking for, well it speaks for itself.

The man was an idiot...but his alleged "proofs" have -- like the Protocols of the Elders of Zion -- taken on a life of their own. So sad.

[Comsat Angel]

How about "The Iran-Iraq War Never Happened!" for a conspiracy.
Yeah, it was all a conspiracy between the Iranian and Iraqi regimes to drive up the price of oil. Ahmedinejad? Government shill! Newsreel footage? Faked! American tankers mined? True! - after all it wasn't Iraqi or Iranian tankers getting holes blown in them. The "War of the Cities"? Never happened! Western combat correspondents? Fooled with wargames and blank ammunition!

I think you'll find that Historical Revisionism, most especially as espoused by the Institute of Historical Revisionism, can be defined in terms of it's own acronym: IHR - Intent on Hitler's Rehabilitation.

"Casualties at Dresden" deserves a thread of it's own. Suffice it to say that the Nagasaki-equivalent figures have been created and promoted by neo-Nazis such as Irving and his ilk.

Right, time to sign off before temper bests restraint and the Mods arrive.

[tsig]

By "best" you mean "vile quasi-Nazi scum," right, MaGZ?

You don't actually admire Nazis and those who long for the Reich, do you? Or are you one of them?

Jackboots become him.

[tsig]

As the war continued, the Final Solution to the Jewish problem was to relocate them outside Europe toward the east. There never was a planned program of extermination. Jews were placed in relocation camps for the same reason Japanese, Germans, and Italians, were placed in camps in the US.

Look at what happened in the Andersonville POW camp in Georgia during the Civil War.

You just changed the goalposts for the net.

[gumboot]

It's not like Hitler made much of an effort to hide his intentions...

My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Saviour as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognised these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter.
-12 April, 1922

The Catholic Church considered the Jews pestilent for fifteen hundred years, put them in ghettos, etc, because it recognized the Jews for what they were. … I recognize the representatives of this race as pestilent for the state and for the church and perhaps I am thereby doing Christianity a great service by pushing them out of schools and public functions.
-26 April, 1933

The Result [of a war] would not be a victory of Jewry, but the destruction of the Jewish race in Europe.
-January, 1939

Our strength consists in our speed and in our brutality. Genghis Khan led millions of women and children to slaughter, with premeditation and a happy heart. History sees in him solely the founder of a state. It’s a matter of indifference to me what a weak western European civilization will say about me. I have issued the command, and I’ll have anybody who utters but one word of criticism executed by a firing squad, that our war aim does not consist in reaching certain lines, but in the physical destruction of the enemy. Accordingly, I have placed my death's-head formation in readiness, for the present only in the East, with orders to them to send to death mercilessly and without compassion, men, women, and children of Polish derivation and language. Only thus shall we gain the living space (Lebensraum) which we need. Who, after all, speaks today of the annihilation of the Armenians?
-22 August, 1939

-Gumboot

[Billdave2]

I wanna know what her response was.

I just took a class on German History, we had to read several books on the Holocaust. The stories and pictures were horrific to read. From the discussions we had in class some tended to think that maybe people downplayed the Holocaust as not being all that bad, for the simple reason that we just don't want to believe that humans are capable of doing this to others. Maybe I am being gullible (not the first time) in believing this.

Susan

There wasn't much she could say. She tried to play it off with "oh I didn't say it didn't happen, just that it wasn't as bad as they say". She never talked about it at work again I can assure you. She was an older lady and I think it was more ignorance on her part then anti-semitism. The company founder and namesake was jewish and I don't think she ever even made the connection (it is in the south, not many jews around these parts).

[Elizabeth I]

When Ahmadinejad was interviewed on 60 minutes, he said something along the lines of "if the Holocaust happened, why don't they let us investigate?"

What is to "investigate"? Do they think the bodies were left stacked in the camps? Are they unaware that many of the participants have died? How could you possibly "investigate"?

[Mainstreammedia]

One thing that has always bothered me, is why the Allies didnt do more to prevent it. Information about Auschwitz was out as early as 1943-44, thanks to some brave prisoners that escaped from there...
By that time, it wasnt a logistical impossibility to precision bomb the gaschambers, SS-guards quarters, or even just the railroad tracks leading there. This is a jewish CT Ive heard: The allies, the Soviets knew about it, and didnt care. Thats why they didnt lift a finger. Thats why we jews can only trusts ourselves etc.

[procrastinate maybe]

The best historical revisionist source on the ‘holocaust’ is the book The Hoax of the Twentieth Century.

IHR link

In the first year of my history degree they used the IHR as a case study for how modern Holocaust denial operates. IHR is a nasty, insidious organisation populated by "scholars" who have links to the Far-Right.

[Revolutionary91]

One reason the holocaust was able to happen was because the German people sat by in denial saying that nothing was wrong. Reminds of the sheep in America today.

[gmanontario]

Well I have to weigh in here.

My father was one of the soldiers in the administrative side that processed survivors of the death camps. He saw thousands of corpses, watched them uncover tons of human remains that the oven missed burning and watched people die right after being liberated. The thing that haunted him mostly was the sight of hundreds of childrens bodies stacked up ready for the oven.

He suffered for the rest of his life because of that.

Holocaust deniers are scum pure and simple, btu they should have epublic voices to expose their stupidity and anti-semitism.

There were far more victims that the people in the death camps. Some just died a lot faster than others. Others died piece by piece.

[Alareth]

One reason the holocaust was able to happen was because the German people sat by in denial saying that nothing was wrong. Reminds of the sheep in America today.


I understand this thread is about the Holocaust and therefore involves the Nazi's, but can that be interpeted as an invocation of Godwin's Law?

Judges? Can we get a ruling?

[Gravy]

One thing that has always bothered me, is why the Allies didnt do more to prevent it. Information about Auschwitz was out as early as 1943-44, thanks to some brave prisoners that escaped from there...Earlier than that, actually. British intelligence had broken the German codes and were aware that the Nazis were systematically murdering every Jew they could get their hands on in Russia. However, the scale and other methods (concentration camps) of the Nazi plans for the Jews wasn't understood at that time. I don't know if the British could have done much for the Jews in Russia. They didn't want to let the Germans know that they had broken the codes, so they kept what they had learned quiet.

By that time, it wasnt a logistical impossibility to precision bomb the gaschambers, SS-guards quarters, or even just the railroad tracks leading there.Yes, that was a logistical impossibility. Aerial bombing was grossly inaccurate. And if it had been possible, would it have been effective? My feeling is that an attack on limited concentration camp facilities would have caused the Germans to kill that much faster. Railroad tracks are a possibility, but they are relatively easy to repair, and the Germans had trucks to ferry people around breaches. If it were your air force, would you have risked your limited resources to bomb concentration camp rail lines, or refineries, ball-bearing plants, and weapons factories?

This is a jewish CT Ive heard: The allies, the Soviets knew about it, and didnt care. Thats why they didnt lift a finger. Thats why we jews can only trusts ourselves etc.It's an understandable sentiment. I think the reality is that the Nazis had to be defeated before their victims could be helped substantially.

[Gravy]

I understand this thread is about the Holocaust and therefore involves the Nazi's, but can that be interpeted as an invocation of Godwin's Law?

Judges? Can we get a ruling?I say his logic is baaaad.

[Byzantine Magpie]

As the war continued, the Final Solution to the Jewish problem was to relocate them outside Europe toward the east.

If that's the case, why were many more people transported east than could ever have been housed in the camps in Poland? If you transport 5 million people to locations with housing for maybe 100,000, what are you doing about accommodation for the remainder?

There never was a planned program of extermination.

Nothing specific in writing, no. But the Wannsee Conference discussed things in considerable detail.

Jews were placed in relocation camps for the same reason Japanese, Germans, and Italians, were placed in camps in the US.

Civilians of hostile nations were interned across the world in World War Two. Are you suggeseting that European Jews were civilians of hostile nations? If so, why didn't the Germans similarly treat all other civilians of those nations?

Look at what happened in the Andersonville POW camp in Georgia during the Civil War.

European Jews weren't prisoners of war. There had also been tremendous advances in sanitation and nutrition between the American Civil War and World War Two. If the Germans had wanted to keep the Jews alive, why was the mortality rate of European Jews so much higher than the mortality rate for other German civilians?

[Loss Leader]

It's an understandable sentiment. I think the reality is that the Nazis had to be defeated before their victims could be helped substantially.



I don't think there's much doubt that the US could have done more to disrupt the workings of the camps than they did (or "than we did" depending on how my sentiments shift as I write).

I do think that it's not easy to tease apart why we didn't expend some resources on that aspect.

At least one reason is that the US military was focussed on a military war. They were trained to fight another army - spearhead to spearhead. Flying way back behind the lines to bomb a militarily worthless target just wasn't part of the way soldiers thought back then. Today, when wars have no front line, it's much easier to imagine that kind of mission.

But I do think an overall not caring about the types of people in the camps played a part.

Weighing how much of a part it played is probably impossible.

Still, it all reminds me of the Dudley Moore/Peter Cooke sketch:

"Terrible business, World War II. I was against it."
- "Yes. Well, I believe we all were."
"Ah, but I wrote a letter."

[gumboot]

One thing that has always bothered me, is why the Allies didnt do more to prevent it. Information about Auschwitz was out as early as 1943-44, thanks to some brave prisoners that escaped from there...
By that time, it wasnt a logistical impossibility to precision bomb the gaschambers, SS-guards quarters, or even just the railroad tracks leading there.



This is pretty weak thinking. To begin with, precision bombing of any description in WW2 was impossible. And even today bombing a specific building in a camp without killing prisoners in the camp is beyond the capabilities of air power.

Secondly, bombing internment camps (regardless of what is happening there) is a warcrime. Thirdly, the camps were almost exclusively in Eastern Germany and Poland, which was either at the very limit, or outside the range of American aircraft.

Thirdly, losses from allied bombing were horrific, thus only the most vital targets could be selected. As tragic as the Holocaust was, stopping it would have not affected the German war effort in any way whatsoever.

Fourthly, the only practical way to stop the holocaust was to defeat the Germans and liberate the camps (lets not forget those killed in the Holocaust were brought in from all over Europe). To this end the allied powers planned and executed a massed invasion of Europe. Leading up to D-Day, every single resource available to the allies had to be dedicated to preparations for the invasion.

To suggest the allied powers should have done more to prevent the Holocaust completely fails to appreciate how dire the situation was for the allied powers in WW2, and seems grossly disrespectful to the millions of allied soldiers who fought and died to liberate Europe.

-Gumboot

[MG1962]

The Allies did not expend the effort because they believed diverting the war resources would slow the winning of the war, thus saving the Jews. Sadly they had no concept of how many Jews were dying on a daily basis.

For the record Aschwitz was bombed once by accident - Allies were after the nearby chemical plant - Aschwitz was back in action within a week.

It is easy to be judgemental when all the facts are known - But to judge fact from over reaction during the fog of war asks of man, something we are simplynot capable off.

[ktesibios]

Actually, the Auschwitz complex was bombed several times from August to December 1944. The purpose was to hit the I. G. Farben synthetic oil and buna rubber plants at Monowitz (Auschwitz III).

This photo, found here (http://www.air-photo.com/english/bomb1.html), shows a stick of American bombs poised directly over Krema II, on a trajectory aimed at the Farben plant.
http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/3784695bba455a6c.jpg
Krema II can be identified on this map
http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/3784695bba479c78.gif
found here (http://www.remember.org/camps/birkenau/)

However, would aerial bombing have accomplished much in saving the lives of the prisoners? In this I have to agree with some of the previous posts in this thread. Bombing the rail lines leading to Auschwitz would probably have caused only a minor delay in transporting victims to the camp; by late 1944 the Allies had learned that the Germans were very good at repairing bombed tracks.

As gumboot has pointed out, to hit the Kremas without killing large numbers of prisoners in the camp around them was beyond the capacity of the level-bombing technology of the time; while it's been speculated that it could have been done with low-level bombing by Mosquitoes, this is speculative and doesn't take into account how organizing such a mission would have affected the ongoing, all-out campaign to destroy the German fuel industry- the reason that Monowitz was bombed.

Finally, even if the Kremas had been destroyed, the Nazi Einsatzgruppen had, in the early part of the war in the East, murdered nearly as many victims as were gassed at Birkenau, using the low-tech method of shooting. If they were determined to continue carrying out the Final Solution, the Nazis could have simply reverted to that more primitive method. The only definitive way to end the genocide was to destroy Nazi power; to detract from the effort to accomplish that would only have given the Nazis more time in which to commit more crimes.

here (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/holocaust/filmmore/reference/primary/bombextracts.html) are some extracts from the postwar United States Stregic bombing Survey describing the attacks on the Monowitz complex, and here (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/holocaust/filmmore/reference/primary/bombjohn.html) is the text of a letter from Assistant Secretary of War John McCloy to the director of the War Refugee Board, explaining the reasons that the War Department had decided not to undertake bombing against the extermination camp at Birkenau.

[Gravy]

Very interesting post, as always, ktesibios.

[TruthSeeker1234]

The linguistic construction of the OP is upside down and backwards.

The holocaust was a conspiracy. The Nazi government conspired to systematically murder Jews and others. They conspired to keep it a secret. The original holocaust deniers were the German people, who could not believe that "their" government could possibly do such a thing, regardless of the evidence.

So the holocaust deniers are denying there was a conspiracy. Those who accept the holocaust accept that there was a conspiracy.

Once the semantics are corrected, we can see the parallel between the holocaust and 9/11. Both involve the mass murder of domestic citizens by government, with the willing cooperation in the cover up by a lap dog news media.

Many Americans simply cannot believe "their" government could possibly do such a thing as 9/11. They are much like the original holocaust deniers.

[MG1962]

Once the semantics are corrected, we can see the parallel between the holocaust and 9/11. Both involve the mass murder of domestic citizens by government, with the willing cooperation in the cover up by a lap dog news media.



No you need to try a lot harder - The Holocaust was the end of a long line of bastardry acts undertaken by the NAZI who were in power for 12 years. To believe a connection to 911 expects one act, within 8 months of office - and nothing further for the next 6 years

[TruthSeeker1234]

No you need to try a lot harder - The Holocaust was the end of a long line of bastardry acts undertaken by the NAZI who were in power for 12 years. To believe a connection to 911 expects one act, within 8 months of office - and nothing further for the next 6 years

You're saying the Holocaust was not a conspiracy?

[TruthSeeker1234]

No you need to try a lot harder - The Holocaust was the end of a long line of bastardry acts undertaken by the NAZI who were in power for 12 years. To believe a connection to 911 expects one act, within 8 months of office - and nothing further for the next 6 years

Nothing further??

Have you not heard of Afghanistan?
Iraq?
7/7?
The Patriot Act?
DHS?
Takeover of the airports?

[gtc]

Once the semantics are corrected, we can see the parallel between the holocaust and 9/11. Both involve the mass murder of domestic citizens by government, with the willing cooperation in the cover up by a lap dog news media.

Prove it.

Prove that the government committed 9/11.

Prove that the media knows it but is covering it up.

[gtc]

Nothing further??

Have you not heard of Afghanistan?
Iraq?
7/7?
The Patriot Act?
DHS?
Takeover of the airports?

OK. Now you have shifted the goal posts as you were talking about the murder of domestic citizens by the US and now you are talking about a whole bunch of stuff.

Afghanistan - what is your point?
Iraq - what is your point?
7/7 - prove government involvement.
The Patriot Act - what is your point?
DHS - what is your point?
Takeover of the airports - what do you mean?

[TruthSeeker1234]

The Nazi holocaust was a conspiracy. Holocaust deniers are denying a conspiracy. Those who accept the holocaust are accepting a conspiracy.

The OP constructs the story using opposite semantics, characterizing holocaust denial as a conspiracy. Whatever your views on the holocaust and whatever your views on 9/11, it is much more semantically consistent to do as I have done, and that is call the holocaust what it was - a conspiracy.

[gtc]

The Nazi holocaust was a conspiracy. Holocaust deniers are denying a conspiracy. Those who accept the holocaust are accepting a conspiracy.

True.

The OP constructs the story using opposite semantics, characterizing holocaust denial as a conspiracy. Whatever your views on the holocaust and whatever your views on 9/11, it is much more semantically consistent to do as I have done, and that is call the holocaust what it was - a conspiracy.

I think the opening post was suggesting that some people believe that a conspiracy exists to "invent" the holocaust.

This means that we have two rival conspiracy theories:

1) Nazi Germany conspired to kill Jews and others or
2) The Jews and others conspired to invent the holocaust.

Of course, all the evidence points to the first conspiracy being correct.

This is similar to the 911 conspiracy theories:

1) A group of Muslim extremists conspired to attack multiple targets in the US.
2) The government and/or others conspired to attack multiple targets in the US and blame it on a group of Muslim extremists.

Of course, all the evidence points to the first conspiracy being correct.

The major difference that the people who adhere to holocaust theory 2 question the extent to which it occurred while people who adhere to 911 theory 2 question who was responsible.

[Belz...]

A-Train is part of the anti-semite chorus. He's danced around the issue with directly admitting it on these forums just like MaGZ.

The typical twoofer modus operandi.

[Belz...]

The holocaust was a conspiracy. The Nazi government conspired to systematically murder Jews and others. They conspired to keep it a secret.

Secret ? Really ?

The original holocaust deniers were the German people, who could not believe that "their" government could possibly do such a thing, regardless of the evidence.

Yes, regardless of the EVIDENCE.

Once the semantics are corrected, we can see the parallel between the holocaust and 9/11.

The only parallel is that some people disagree on whether or not there is something suspicious going on. It says NOTHING about who's correct, does it ?

Both involve the mass murder of domestic citizens by government, with the willing cooperation in the cover up by a lap dog news media.

Only if you assume this regardless of the evidence.

Many Americans simply cannot believe "their" government could possibly do such a thing as 9/11.

Actually, it's pretty easy. The government couldn't. Physically.

[westprog]

This is pretty weak thinking. To begin with, precision bombing of any description in WW2 was impossible. And even today bombing a specific building in a camp without killing prisoners in the camp is beyond the capabilities of air power.

Secondly, bombing internment camps (regardless of what is happening there) is a warcrime. Thirdly, the camps were almost exclusively in Eastern Germany and Poland, which was either at the very limit, or outside the range of American aircraft.

Thirdly, losses from allied bombing were horrific, thus only the most vital targets could be selected. As tragic as the Holocaust was, stopping it would have not affected the German war effort in any way whatsoever.

Fourthly, the only practical way to stop the holocaust was to defeat the Germans and liberate the camps (lets not forget those killed in the Holocaust were brought in from all over Europe). To this end the allied powers planned and executed a massed invasion of Europe. Leading up to D-Day, every single resource available to the allies had to be dedicated to preparations for the invasion.

To suggest the allied powers should have done more to prevent the Holocaust completely fails to appreciate how dire the situation was for the allied powers in WW2, and seems grossly disrespectful to the millions of allied soldiers who fought and died to liberate Europe.

-Gumboot

It wasn't clear at the time that Jews delivered to the camps were in more danger than while they were being rounded up. There wasn't any great overhead in shooting Jews by the side of the road, and if the trains to Auschwitz had been stopped from running, that's probably what would have happened.

[westprog]

Actually, it's pretty easy. The government couldn't. Physically.

That's not actually the case. The idea that the government planted bombs in the WTC is physically impossible. The idea that they manipulated Arab terrorists into attacking the USA is not impossible, merely wrong.

[Belz...]

Yeah, well I was going for the former.

[Liszt]

that is an excellent post from ktesibios - nice one sir (or madam)


Now, I think that Holocaust deniers are manipulators and selective in their evidence. However, look at things like this...

http://www.newsday.com/news/opinion/ny-opbla105287772jul10,0,3594067.story?coll=ny-viewpoints-headlines

Here´s the tagline "D.C. museum getting data from Germany won't allow Internet searches, infuriating survivors who want to trace relatives"

This was from July 10 edition of Newsday.

Why on earth are they stopping this information flow? There is already plenty of evidence of the Holocaust. By stopping more info, all they are doing is helping the deniers. It is things like this that fan the flames.

[Loss Leader]

The Nazi government conspired to systematically murder Jews and others. They conspired to keep it a secret.


Well, they didn't do a very good job of it:

On November 24 of that year [1942], Rabbi Stephen Wise disclosed in a press conference that the State Department had investigated and confirmed reports about the Nazis' extermination campaign against European Jews. A few weeks later, on December 17, the United States, Britain, and ten Allied governments released a formal declaration confirming and condemning Hitler's extermination policy toward the Jews.

source (http://www.ushmm.org/research/library/faq/details.php?topic=01#05)


Once the semantics are corrected, we can see the parallel between the holocaust and 9/11.


The parallel kind of disappears once you figure in the fact that the Holocaust wasn't a secret. The allied governments confirmed the reports and shared the information with the public by December 1942. Before then, violence against Jews and the Neuremburg Laws were widely reported by credible sources such as the New York Times.

Let's review the parallels:

Oh, wait, there aren't any.

Unless a national government has investigated 9/11 and called it an inside job. Has that happened? No? Well, certainly major newspapers are breaking the story of the 9/11 conspiracy. No major papers? Surely actual eyewitnesses have come forward with information about Bush's plan to destroy the towers. Oh, that hasn't happened, either?

But all those things did happen with the Holocaust.

Perhaps ... perhaps ... you have no idea what you're talking about.

[Liszt]

who cares about the parallels between 911 & the Holocaust? There are enugh 911 threads here.

back on topic...why are they blocking the information flow? (see my above post)

[Loss Leader]

However, look at things like this...

http://www.newsday.com/news/opinion/ny-opbla105287772jul10,0,3594067.story?coll=ny-viewpoints-headlines

Here´s the tagline "D.C. museum getting data from Germany won't allow Internet searches, infuriating survivors who want to trace relatives"

This was from July 10 edition of Newsday.

Why on earth are they stopping this information flow?

back on topic...why are they blocking the information flow? (see my above post)


I don't really understand your question. If you read the article, it makes it very clear why the information won't be as easily available as it could be:

The mammoth archive is ... governed by a multilateral treaty that originally limited access to families tracing loved ones [and] made requests for tracing a years-long exercise in painful frustration.

A new treaty ... transfers a digital copy under embargo, pending full ratification. The documents go to a single repository in each of the countries....

The Holocaust Museum's plan is to restrict access to its own on-site computers. For those who cannot visit, the museum promises it will take requests by phone, e-mail or fax, training a small army of staff helpers to function in a long list of languages, from Russian to Yiddish to Dutch.

The legal dynamics of the Tracing Service files are fundamentally unprecedented.... America, by treaty, will own only its digital copy, and only Congress can legislate the specifics of custody and access to the digital copy.


So:

1. The Holocaust Museum is allowing access to all of the records from its own computers in Washington - a researcher need only go there to get any record desired.

2. The museum is training people to help with phone, fax and e-mail requests.

3. The legal issues regarding ownership and distribution rights regarding the data are unprecedented.

4. The treaty under which the data was delivered to the Holocaust Museum has yet to be ratified and the data is under "embargo."

5. Only Congress can settle the question of access to the records, something it has yet to do.

In what way is the Holocaust Museum "stopping the information flow"? The information used to be available only in Germany. Now, for the first time, it's housed in the countries where most of the survivors actually reside. And they can get it be going to DC and by email, phone and fax. And legal questions about whether the museum is even allowed to give the information out still abound.

I see an increase in information flow, not a decrease and certainly not a stoppage.

[Liszt]

hmm - good points Loss Leader.

I read that and saw the glass half empty, you read it and saw the glass half (or perhaps more than that) full.

But why then does this system end up "infuriating survivors who want to trace relatives"?

[Tirdun]

The holocaust was a conspiracy.
And 9/11 was a conspiracy of Islamic Fundamentalists.
The Nazi government conspired to systematically murder Jews and others. They conspired to keep it a secret.
And with CNN and Fox news filming everything... oh, wait. Nobody released film of the camps until after the Allies opened them. Then there was lots of evidence on film.
The original holocaust deniers were the German people, who could not believe that "their" government could possibly do such a thing, regardless of the evidence.
And they were shown that evidence.
Go away, this isn't a 9/11 thread.

[headscratcher4]

As history continues to prove...German's knew more about the holocaust than many were willing to admit.

The fact that they didn't do much, collectively, to stop it does not mean that they didn't know. It means they approved or were scared or were indifferent, etc. However, troops serving on the Eastern Front, people who worked for the railroads, hundreds of thousands of troops (ss, police, auxilaries, etc.) all knew and many told what they saw...even if in whispers.

Even Hitler was once confronted with it...sometime in 1943, the wife of Baulder Von Sirach (sp?) who was part of the Hitler inner-circle -- asked Hitler directly about what she had seen on a train coming from Beligium or France (i.e. people being transported East in cattle cars). He ignored her and cut her and her husband out of the inner-circle, but she asked (this is reported by Sareny (sp?) in her book on Speer and others).

And, if not only the German's, the Book, Hitler's Pope, suggests that Pius and the Vatican knew a lot about what was going on and shut their eyes because of a percieved threat to themselves were they to raise the issue openly, as well as the fact that Hitler was taking care of the Russians (at least early on). So if the Pope -- confined to a 100 square acres in Rome -- could know, I feel pretty confident that millions of German's had some inkling.

Strikes me, the argument that German's didn't know is a little like saying "Jim Crow" wasn't obvious...everyone saw it and closed their eyes to the greater implications of Jim Crow...but knew about it nonetheless.

A side point...but you can call it a "conspiracy"... that is what the Nuremberg Court charged....but remember, they had a problem. They were the winners. The innovation of Nuremberg was that they had to try and figure out how to try these bastards...they were the government of a soverign country. Goering, et. al., were trying to argue the Court had no jurisdiction because they were acting under German Law and the Court had no power to try them as the government of germany following their own laws. In addition, they had to figure some way to get to mass murder with the Russians participating on the court. The Anglo-American concept of "conspiracy" was a device for getting there, bringing the Russians along and avoiding the larger question of trying people who were acting under their own law. So, it isn't quite, IMO, like 19 guys plotting to bring down 5 planes, or Mafiosos plotting to undermine and dominate a construction business, and, also IMO, "secret" has a very different meaning when it is done by the entire leadership of a country than when plotting to bomb planes in hotel rooms and strip bars.

[Comsat Angel]

If the Nazi's industrial-scale mass-murder factories had been closed down by bombing, they would have reverted to the less sophisticated method of shooting in the head. This is a regime that, whilst trying to fend off a gigantic amphibious invasion of their occupied territory in France *and* the equally gigantic disaster of Army Group Centre being destroyed, still finds the resources to kill off the Hungarian jews.
I suspect that the Einsatzgruppen would have gone back into action on a major scale. John Erickson, not one given to flowery phrases, aptly describes the activities of the Einsatzgruppen on the Eastern Front as "bestial mass-murder rampages". No way Allied bombing could have prevented that activity.

[Mainstreammedia]

The Ukranians and baltic people were often even more brutal than the germans themselves were, and often formed the majority of camp personel.
My dads father was Polish, and he often said, that the Latvian and Estonian SS men were the worst. You could usually tell were you had the german SS-men, but the Latvians and Estonians were like animals, according to him. Very, very brutal.
Anyways, that's something that's often forgotten: That the German themselves were a minority in the campsystems.

[Mainstreammedia]

BTW: Here's another little holocaust myth, i'd like to clear out of the way. I'm sure you've all heard about how the brave Danes saved their jews by shipping them to Sweden? It's kinda true... EXCEPT that the warning actually came from the German High Commander in Denmark: Dr. Best, and those brave fishermen were not as brave as they were greedy. They charged an arm and a leg for every passenger. They were probably cheering Hitler the rest of '43, since they got pretty rich of the whole deal.

[Brainster]

In general, Holocaust Denial is not about the Holocaust. Yes, there may be some for whom it's about trying to erase the guilt of the Nazis in mass murder. But I suspect for most it's about Israel.

[Mince]

The Holocaust never happened!



I've been asked many times if the Holocaust was real. I'd always ask the person why the hell they were asking me. "I'm only 30 years old", I'd say; "Why don't you go ask one of the (few remaining) survivors if they think the Holocaust was real?" If they actually had the courage to ask a survivor such an (I believe) ignorant question, I'd caution them to have a plan of egress ready to go.

[Alareth]

In general, Holocaust Denial is not about the Holocaust. Yes, there may be some for whom it's about trying to erase the guilt of the Nazis in mass murder. But I suspect for most it's about Israel.

In general, those that deny the Holocaust are the same people that would be the most supportive if it were attempted today.

[beachnut]

Maybe I'm not reading what you are reading. I don't see why you are attacking him for being a Nazi.

As I have been reading this thread it seems as if he is just telling us what the holocaust deniers are saying. Which is what the OP asked in the first place, how can holocaust deniers continue to believe.

Susan
Why?, reading comprehension. He is a Nazi.

[MaGZ]

It's not like Hitler made much of an effort to hide his intentions...



-Gumboot

Gumboot,

Prove Hitler made these remarks.

[MaGZ]

One thing that has always bothered me, is why the Allies didnt do more to prevent it. Information about Auschwitz was out as early as 1943-44, thanks to some brave prisoners that escaped from there...
By that time, it wasnt a logistical impossibility to precision bomb the gaschambers, SS-guards quarters, or even just the railroad tracks leading there. This is a jewish CT Ive heard: The allies, the Soviets knew about it, and didnt care. Thats why they didnt lift a finger. Thats why we jews can only trusts ourselves etc.

The Allies did nothing about bombing the camps because they knew it was propaganda.

An interesting point: The ‘Holocaust’ was invented in the early 1970's. Look at a dictionary or encyclopedia printed before 1970 and you will not find the ‘Holocaust’ mentioned.

[MaGZ]

Well I have to weigh in here.

My father was one of the soldiers in the administrative side that processed survivors of the death camps. He saw thousands of corpses, watched them uncover tons of human remains that the oven missed burning and watched people die right after being liberated. The thing that haunted him mostly was the sight of hundreds of childrens bodies stacked up ready for the oven.

He suffered for the rest of his life because of that.

Holocaust deniers are scum pure and simple, btu they should have epublic voices to expose their stupidity and anti-semitism.

There were far more victims that the people in the death camps. Some just died a lot faster than others. Others died piece by piece.

The ovens were crematoria used to dispose of bodies that died from diseases.

[Loss Leader]

An interesting point: The ‘Holocaust’ was invented in the early 1970's. Look at a dictionary or encyclopedia printed before 1970 and you will not find the ‘Holocaust’ mentioned.


Interesting point: 'Oxygen' was invented in 1775. Look in a dictionary before 1775 and you will not find 'Oxygen' mentioned.


Before 1775, people just lay on the ground gasping. Or possibly they had gills. Or maybe they breathed that pink goop from The Abyss.

In any case, I expect MaGZ is experimenting with a lack of Oxygen as he types his posts. I am uncertain of a mechanism that can destroy one's ability to form a coherent thought more completely.

[MaGZ]

In that case, where did the other Jews go?

If the Germans rounded up every European Jew they could find, then they should all have been waiting to be liberated in Auschwitz at the end of the war. They were gone.

I recommend this book: The Dissolution of Eastern European Jewry
http://www.noontidepress.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=134

[parky76]

Adolh Eichmann admitted that the Holocaust happened. He knew he was headed towards the gallows, so he had no reason to lie.

[MaGZ]

The Japanese, Germans and Italians interned in the US were still alive, for the most part, at the end of the war, as were the British and American soldiers held as prisoners. The Jews weren't. That wasn't an accident.

I don't find it impossible that some Nazis had some idea in the back of their minds about doing something with the Jews that didn't involve killing them. What they did do did involve killing them.

If America lost WW II to the Japanese and the Japanese Army began to liberate the camps that held the Japanese families on the west coast, you would be able to film the same type of starvation and death that was found in the camps in Europe at the end of the war.

[Alareth]

If America lost WW II to the Japanese and the Japanese Army began to liberate the camps that held the Japanese families on the west coast, you would be able to film the same type of starvation and death that was found in the camps in Europe at the end of the war.

Your biased and willful ignorance of history is truly disgusting.

[MaGZ]

Irving, among other things, likes argues that no written orders, and that many of the deaths were from things like Typhoid and not a specific act such as driving people into gas vans and gas chambers. What I've never understood is, say it is ONLY a million, it is a million that died because German policy put them in a position where they could die...I know, he argues then that the exageration of the deaths by Jews thus constitutes a falsification in order to justify Isreal and other Jews claims for special treatment etc.

Anyway, I am Just finishing Albert Speer and his Battle with Truth by Sereny. Facinating and frightening. The only conclusion is that the Top Brass knew what the grunts doing the killing knew. It was policy. It was intended. They were sorry they didn't get more.

Albert Speer turned out to be a self-serving individual.
If I remember correctly, he joined the party only after Hitler came to power.

[The Great Hairy One]

Wow, MaGZ proves again that he's one of the most disreputable and dishonourable people on the planet.

Hey MaGZ, why do you attempt to deny the actual physical evidence many of us have personally held in our hands? Are you HONESTLY claiming that my great-grandmother was lying when she wrote her letters to my grandfather about her experiences in the camps? About how most of MY FAMILY DIED in those camps, killed by the Nazis? Yes - gassed. Beaten to death (my great-uncle). Raped to death (my great-aunt).

Are you truly that vile?

Cheers,
TGHO

[PhantomWolf]

MaGZ, since you love them so much, why did not one camp gaurd, offical or senior Nazi Party member that was charged, and in many cases sentenced to death, use the defence that it never happened? Why did they all use defences base on following orders or it being acceptable under German law? Why didn't they say, prove that it happened? Why have none of the ones caught and tried in the past 50 years claimed that it never happened, that they were innocent because there was no holocaut? Why did they claim they were just following orders? If you were on trial for your life for a murder that never happened, would you claim as your defence that you did it because you were ordered too, or would you claim that you were innocent because there was no proof that a murder had occured?

[The_Fire]

BTW: Here's another little holocaust myth, i'd like to clear out of the way. I'm sure you've all heard about how the brave Danes saved their jews by shipping them to Sweden? It's kinda true...


Given the fact that 90%+ of the danish jews actually managed to survive to tell the story, it isn't "Kinda True". It happened.



EXCEPT that the warning actually came from the German High Commander in Denmark: Dr. Best,


I've heard that one before but yet to se any credible references for it. Do you have a source? Or merely rumour?


and those brave fishermen were not as brave as they were greedy. They charged an arm and a leg for every passenger. They were probably cheering Hitler the rest of '43, since they got pretty rich of the whole deal.

Now you are just pissing me of. Did they get payed? Yes. But you fail to see the fact that they had families which they had to support and boats to replace if the germans caught them. And that would be if they didn't get shipped off to the camps. As for the "cheering Hitler on" part, I hope you got some real good background information for that little piece of slader because I am deeply offended as a Dane that you would think so "highly" of the danish population during WW2.

[PhantomWolf]

Gumboot,

Prove Hitler made these remarks.

Prove that Hilter existed.

[beachnut]

If America lost WW II to the Japanese and the Japanese Army began to liberate the camps that held the Japanese families on the west coast, you would be able to film the same type of starvation and death that was found in the camps in Europe at the end of the war.
What?

[R.Mackey]

The Allies did nothing about bombing the camps because they knew it was propaganda.

An interesting point: The ‘Holocaust’ was invented in the early 1970's. Look at a dictionary or encyclopedia printed before 1970 and you will not find the ‘Holocaust’ mentioned.


Sorry, I have to de-Ignore you just one more time... the sheer depth of your racist idiocy seems to have ruptured spacetime.

If the death camps were a propagandist lie, then why not lie about bombing them? Additional propaganda.

"The Holocaust" was not invented in the 1970's. I can only presume your little National Vanguard buddies merely burned all the encyclopedias before then. Wikipedia credits the term in English as arising in 1942:

"Holocaust" was first used in English in the spring of 1942, when the Jerusalem historian BenZion Dinur (Dinaburg) stated that the Holocaust was a "catastrophe" that symbolized the unique situation of the Jewish people.

Source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust)

Why anyone would utter such an absurd and easily disproven falsehood is simply mind-boggling.

I think we've all seen, before and currently, that just about anything you type is wrong by default. I make one last impassioned plea for you to join the rest of the Human Race, drop the hate, and for FSM's sake try to learn something.

[The Atheist]

The ovens were crematoria used to dispose of bodies that died from diseases.

And the showers. Don't forget the showers...

[MaGZ]

The Ukranians and baltic people were often even more brutal than the germans themselves were, and often formed the majority of camp personel.
My dads father was Polish, and he often said, that the Latvian and Estonian SS men were the worst. You could usually tell were you had the german SS-men, but the Latvians and Estonians were like animals, according to him. Very, very brutal.
Anyways, that's something that's often forgotten: That the German themselves were a minority in the campsystems.

The reason the Ukranian and Baltic peoples turned against the Jews was due to the fact that the Soviet secret police were made-up mostly of Jewish commissars. These people suffered terribly under the hands of the Jews. After their liberation by the German Army, the Ukranian and Baltic peoples were more than willing to take their revenge.

[MaGZ]

In general, Holocaust Denial is not about the Holocaust. Yes, there may be some for whom it's about trying to erase the guilt of the Nazis in mass murder. But I suspect for most it's about Israel.

You got it wrong. The ‘Holocaust’ is mostly about support for Israel.

[Loss Leader]

Here's my question for MaGZ. It's a simple question and requires you in no way to further humiliate yourself:

Do you personally know any Jews?

I'm not counting that there's a guy who works at the post office and you know he's Jewish.

I mean, do you have any relationship with any Jew?

I'd be interested to hear.

[MaGZ]

And the showers. Don't forget the showers...

The showers were for delousing.

[Stellafane]

If America lost WW II to the Japanese and the Japanese Army began to liberate the camps that held the Japanese families on the west coast, you would be able to film the same type of starvation and death that was found in the camps in Europe at the end of the war.

I know I'm merely pointing out the obvious here, but anyone who really believes this is utterly insane, and offensively so. They don't even deserve the pity usually accorded the victims of mental illness, since this form of insanity is entirely willful and voluntary, based on hate and loathing -- and most of all, a sick need to find a scapegoat on which to blame all their problems.

[Stellafane]

The showers were for delousing.


This guy can't be real, can he? Even as a joke this is would be despicable and offensive, but at this point he's just parroting every neo-Nazi cliche. Surely he's just some lonely kid playing a sick little joke on us.

[The_Fire]

This guy can't be real, can he? Even as a joke this is would be despicable and offensive, but at this point he's just parroting every neo-Nazi cliche. Surely he's just some lonely kid playing a sick little joke on us.

He reminds me of the morons in "American History X"........

[The Great Hairy One]

This guy can't be real, can he? Even as a joke this is would be despicable and offensive, but at this point he's just parroting every neo-Nazi cliche. Surely he's just some lonely kid playing a sick little joke on us.


Unfortunately MaGZ is for real. He's one of the true anti-Semites, a racist to the core. Even if you were to take him to the camps and show him the actual evidence, he'd still be sticking his fingers in his ears and yelling "la la la I can't hear you!".

He revels in filth. He's an abomination. I'm usually a very tolerant guy, but Holocaust deniers are the one thing guaranteed to get my goat.

Cheers,
TGHO

[Billdave2]

Here's my question for MaGZ. It's a simple question and requires you in no way to further humiliate yourself:

Do you personally know any Jews?

I'm not counting that there's a guy who works at the post office and you know he's Jewish.

I mean, do you have any relationship with any Jew?

I'd be interested to hear.

He will probably tell you some of his best friends are jews. ;)

[The_Fire]

a couple of short videopieces of people whom were THERE. You'll need quicktime.


http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/vhi/testimonyviewer/TV-Ca-ErnaA.htm
http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/vhi/testimonyviewer/TV-Ca-GeorgeG.htm

http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/vhi/testimonyviewer/TV-Li-JamesH.htm

ETA:
http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/vhi/survivingauschwitz/exhibit/Exhibit-Other.html
http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/vhi/survivorexhibit/vhfmain.htm

[The Atheist]

The showers were for delousing.

You should join Stormfront, you'd be right at home there.

just out of interest, where did the Jews go? There were unquestionably millions of Jews shipped to the camps - even David Duke accepts that - so where did they go, since the camps demonstrably could neither feed nor house so many prisoners?

They all sneak off to USA to continue the Illuminatus Conspiracy?

[Mainstreammedia]

I've heard that one before but yet to se any credible references for it. Do you have a source? Or merely rumour?

There are different sources for the information that was leaked. According to some it was von Best, accordig to the Jewish Virtual Library, it was a German diplomat http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/denmark.html

Now you are just pissing me of. Did they get payed? Yes. But you fail to see the fact that they had families which they had to support and boats to replace if the germans caught them.

Blah-blah-blah... That doesn't change the fact that it's profiteering. Not that much different from the people that smuggle refugees to Europe from Africa. They have families too you know, and boats to replace, if the Spanish navy finds them!


As for the "cheering Hitler on" part, I hope you got some real good background information for that little piece of slader because I am deeply offended as a Dane that you would think so "highly" of the danish population during WW2.

There were almost no Danish resistance until 1943, and the resistance didn't get started for real until 1944. In other words, when it was pretty sure that Hitler would lose the war.
The only resistancefighters before 1943 were a few groups of Danish Communists, who not only had to fear the Germans, but also the Danish police, who were more than willing to catch the "terrorists" as the Danish government and even in some examples, the danish press called the resistance fighters. Trust me, Denmark has very little to be proud of, when it comes to WWII. Denmark cooperated so smoothly and willingly with NaziGermnay, that it wasn't until the end of 1944 I believe, that Denmark was accepted on the allied side.

[parky76]

All the Jews must have gone to Israel and the Israelis have been grossly under reporting their population. There arent 7 million israelis..there are 15 million!!!!!

:D

[PhantomWolf]

Well I suppose since the Nazi's consider the Jews to be louse, they really were for delousing....

BTW MaGZ, you ever going to explain how come all those Nazi's went to gallows screaming with their dying breath about how there were no Nazi Death Camps and the whole things was a lie... oh, hang on, that's right, they didn't they all claimed they were ordered to do it... opps.

[The_Fire]

There are different sources for the information that was leaked. According to some it was von Best, accordig to the Jewish Virtual Library, it was a German diplomat http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/denmark.html


I'll get back to you on that one once I've gotten my hands on some history books and double checked it.



Blah-blah-blah... That doesn't change the fact that it's profiteering. Not that much different from the people that smuggle refugees to Europe from Africa. They have families too you know, and boats to replace, if the Spanish navy finds them!


So the spanish navy have a tendency to sink refugee ships then?



There were almost no Danish resistance until 1943, and the resistance didn't get started for real until 1944. In other words, when it was pretty sure that Hitler would lose the war.


You are overlooking the civil disobediance, slick. That started almost immidiately after the occupation on april 9th 1940.
The first resistance groups arrived in 1941. That same year, the British send over operatives to help coordinate the sabotages which started in early 1942.

And the people behind "Holger Danske" (1942) would take great offence in being called Communists.


The only resistancefighters before 1943 were a few groups of Danish Communists, who not only had to fear the Germans, but also the Danish police, who were more than willing to catch the "terrorists" as the Danish government and even in some examples, the danish press called the resistance fighters.

As previously stated: Not all resistance groups or fighters were communists. Not even in the early days.
As for the rest:
Ever hear of "Censorship"? That is what they call it when an occupying force determines either directly or by applying pressure what is correct to print in the newspapers. The Illegal, and very popular, underground news told a different story. You are also overlooking the fact that the police were forced to cooperate with the germans by the danish government.


Trust me, Denmark has very little to be proud of, when it comes to WWII. Denmark cooperated so smoothly and willingly with NaziGermnay, that it wasn't until the end of 1944 I believe, that Denmark was accepted on the allied side.

Right....So you would rather that Denmark had been totally anihilated in a "real" war with a more than 3 times as big army, right? OR that the danish jews had been deported already in the start of the occupation? Or the police arrested and what limited independence were left after the invasion had been totally lost?
Yes, the government cooperated with the germans to a certain degree. Yes, it created some problems for Denmark afterwards (I'll have to get back to you on the acceptance thing later), but the Government basically had two choices:
1: Cooperate, stay in a strongly limted position of power and protect what they could, including as many human lives as possible

or

2: Not cooperate and watch Denmark get "germanised" from day one.

Have you ever been in that position? Have you ever had to make that kind of decisions? No? Then stop sounding so ****ing houlier than thou.....

And trust you? No further than I can throw you. And thats not far.

[The Atheist]

There were almost no Danish resistance until 1943, and the resistance didn't get started for real until 1944. In other words, when it was pretty sure that Hitler would lose the war.

The Prime Minister felt strongly enough in 2005 to publicly apologise (http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/05/05/news/danes.php)for Denmark's conduct during that period.

[Mainstreammedia]

You are overlooking the civil disobediance, slick. That started almost immidiately after the occupation on april 9th 1940.
The first resistance groups arrived in 1941. That same year, the British send over operatives to help coordinate the sabotages which started in early 1942.

Civil disobedience? What civil disobedience?!?
Here's an interesting stastic for you... Danish resistancefighters did 1500 acts of sabotage against the railroads. 95% of those happened between 1944 and 1945! In other words, after FOUR years of occupation, when everybody knew that Germany is going to lose the war... Why did they wait that long? Because you don't want to be on the losing side of the war, and for a long time it lokked like Germany might win. Denmark tried to bet on both horses, thats the unfortunate and despicable truth.
After the war, of course, everybody was a resistancefighter, and all of this got hushed up for 40 years.

Oh! and link:

http://www.faktalink.dk/publish.php?linknavn=besahele

[CHF]

If America lost WW II to the Japanese and the Japanese Army began to liberate the camps that held the Japanese families on the west coast, you would be able to film the same type of starvation and death that was found in the camps in Europe at the end of the war.

So how many Japanese do you think died in the North American camps? Millions?

What an absolute Nazi puke you are.

[uk_dave]

Lock up people who think the moon landings were fake?`

It's a thought....

[westprog]

So how many Japanese do you think died in the North American camps? Millions?

What an absolute Nazi puke you are.

The Japanese internment camps were a disgraceful, racist, shameful incident in American history. There was never any justification for them apart from punishing hardworking Japanese farmers in California.

But there is simply no comparision to the camps where the Jews were held by the Germans. There is no comparision to the way Jews were rounded up by the Nazis and the way Japanese were rounded up by the Americans. To place the two side by side has the unfortunate effect of making the Japanese internment seem benign - which it wasn't.

[MG1962]

I think the arguement being presented about the Danish situation verges almost on Strawman. The Dannes had the good fortune of being a bit of experiment for the Germans. IE they wanted to show the rest of Europe how cool it was to own by Germany.

It really wasn't till late 43 that the NAZIs bared there teeth and began cracking down. Doing things like disbanding the Dannish Parliment etc. Once the Dannes realised they could no longer get through by being a small target, they began to fight back.

Today we look back and wonder how the Dannes remained so neutral in all this. However until the disolution of the Parliment, there was no anti Jewish legislation nor had there been a real effort at the sort of round up experienced in the Netherlands etc

[The Atheist]

IE they wanted to show the rest of Europe how cool it was to own by Germany.

Well, that's kind of the point, they were quite happy to go along with it. No particular shame in that, these days - lots of countries were German allies during WWII. We seem to be on pretty good terms with all of the ex-Soviet states which were on Germany's side during the war, it was a long time ago. The point is, it happened. I repeat, the Prime Minister of Denmark was even driven to apologise only two years ago.

[The Atheist]

The Japanese internment camps were a disgraceful, racist, shameful incident in American history.

You're not alone. New Zealand did exactly the same, putting all Japs into concentration camps. One horrific incident - a massacre of 50 prisoners in 1943 - only came to light ten or so years ago. It had been hushed up for nearly half a century and the perpetrators of a massacre of defenceless prisoners walked away, scot-free.

Let he who is without sin...

[MG1962]

Well, that's kind of the point, they were quite happy to go along with it. No particular shame in that, these days - lots of countries were German allies during WWII. We seem to be on pretty good terms with all of the ex-Soviet states which were on Germany's side during the war, it was a long time ago. The point is, it happened. I repeat, the Prime Minister of Denmark was even driven to apologise only two years ago.

The point I was making regarded the lack of a resistence movement in the first half of the occupation. I personally dont have any ill will to the Danes over their actions. In truth I think it ultimately saved a lot of lives.

I do object to the arguement that the Danes waited till the Germans were on the ropes. The reality was the Danes heeded the call to action once their govenment was dismissed in 1943. That action indicated to the Danes that the uneasy truce was over - And they reacted accordingly.

[JimBenArm]

He will probably tell you some of his best friends are jews. ;)
Yeah, as long as they're dead...

[Mainstreammedia]

Norway also had a government that cooperated with the germans (No, not the one in London), and just that one statistic i quoted really says it all.
95% of all railways sabotage was done in 1944 and 45.

NINETYFIVE PERCENT.

I live in Denmark, and I find the Danes (lack of) participation in wwII to be shameful and a disgrace.

The Danes were also ashamed after the war. Hence the mythmaking about the resistance and the rescuing of the jews.


And the poster writing about the baltic countries is right. They were many times worse than Denmark in helping Nazis. If I spit on Denmark, I defecate on Lithuania, Letland and Estonia But's thats a different subject.

[Belz...]

The ovens were crematoria used to dispose of bodies that died from diseases.
The showers were for delousing.

Disgusting. You are a despicable individual.

[peteweaver]

Trade unionists, gypsies, homosexuals, and even a number of roman catholics also died in the holocaust. They should not be forgotten.

[Bodhi Dharma Zen]

People (and not just from one camp, people IN GENERAL) tend to exaggerate. That pretty much covers this issue.

And almost every other issue that gets heated discussions for that matter.

[kookbreaker]

The Japanese internment camps were a disgraceful, racist, shameful incident in American history. There was never any justification for them apart from punishing hardworking Japanese farmers in California.


I would like to point out in counterpoint to the 'racist' accusation, that several thousand Italian families (and a few German) were also interred on the West Coast following the same pattern and target as Japanese families. Not that there wasn't an element of racism in the internment, but it was not as exclusive as some have made it out to be.

There was also the little fact that it was not impossible to be allowed to leave the internment camps. You would be allowed to leave (whatever your ancestry) if you pronounced loyalty to the US and agreed to move elsewhere in the USA. This ruined many people's established businesses and disrupted lives but it was more of an option than victims of the concentration camps ever had. Some 40,000 of the 110,000 Japanese Americans did relocate.

Things could have been similar with German Americans on the East Coast had Hitler posessed a Japanese size Navy and a threat of invasion existed. It might have been impractical given the sheer numbers of Americans with German ancestry. But doubtless German citizens would have been rounded up. As it was, many German organizations were watched like a hawk lest they start some kind of East Coast Niihau incident. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niihau_Incident)

[Lurker]

Heydrich, Wannsee Conference 1/20/42 "Under proper guidance, in the course of the final solution the Jews are to be allocated for appropriate labor in the East. Able-bodied Jews, separated according to sex, will be taken in large work columns to these areas for work on roads, in the course of which action doubtless a large portion will be eliminated by natural causes. The possible final remnant will, since it will undoubtedly consist of the most resistant portion, have to be treated accordingly, because it is the product of natural selection and would, if released, act as a the seed of a new Jewish revival".


Himmler speech at Posen 10/6/43 I am now referring to the evacuation of the Jews, to the extermination of the Jewish people. This is something that is easily said: "The Jewish people will be exterminated", says every Party member, "this is very obvious, it is in our program — elimination of the Jews, extermination, will do."

Hmm, seems pretty plain to me. (both from wiki)

[Dave Rogers]

Prove that Hilter existed.

Preferably without using any Monty Python references.

Dave

[westprog]

I would like to point out in counterpoint to the 'racist' accusation, that several thousand Italian families (and a few German) were also interned on the West Coast following the same pattern and target as Japanese families. Not that there wasn't an element of racism in the internment, but it was not as exclusive as some have made it out to be.


There's no doubt that but for Pearl Harbor, anti-Japanese racist sentiment wouldn't have been able to have the Japanese farmers run out of California. But if racism hadn't been an element, it's unlikely that the mass internments would have taken place.

There was also the little fact that it was not impossible to be allowed to leave the internment camps. You would be allowed to leave (whatever your ancestry) if you pronounced loyalty to the US and agreed to move elsewhere in the USA. This ruined many people's established businesses and disrupted lives but it was more of an option than victims of the concentration camps ever had.

Exactly so. The American internments were wrong. The Jewish camps were horrendously worse, to the extent that they can't really be meaningfully compared.

Some 40,000 of the 110,000 Japanese Americans did relocate.



And a substantial number of young men went off to get shot at in Europe while the government kept their families imprisoned.

Things could have been similar with German Americans on the East Coast had Hitler posessed a Japanese size Navy and a threat of invasion existed. It might have been impractical given the sheer numbers of Americans with German ancestry. But doubtless German citizens would have been rounded up. As it was, many German organizations were watched like a hawk lest they start some kind of East Coast Niihau incident. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niihau_Incident)

There's also the fact that the Japanese in Hawaii weren't interned. This was again for practical purposes. In spite of the critical importance of Hawaii to the war, it was decided that actually locking up about a third of the population would be detrimental. Hoover had already advised that there was no need for internment.

[westprog]

I would like to point out in counterpoint to the 'racist' accusation, that several thousand Italian families (and a few German) were also interned on the West Coast following the same pattern and target as Japanese families. Not that there wasn't an element of racism in the internment, but it was not as exclusive as some have made it out to be.


There's no doubt that but for Pearl Harbor, anti-Japanese racist sentiment wouldn't have been able to have the Japanese farmers run out of California. But if racism hadn't been an element, it's unlikely that the mass internments would have taken place.

There was also the little fact that it was not impossible to be allowed to leave the internment camps. You would be allowed to leave (whatever your ancestry) if you pronounced loyalty to the US and agreed to move elsewhere in the USA. This ruined many people's established businesses and disrupted lives but it was more of an option than victims of the concentration camps ever had.

Exactly so. The American internments were wrong. The Jewish camps were horrendously worse, to the extent that they can't really be meaningfully compared.

Some 40,000 of the 110,000 Japanese Americans did relocate.



And a substantial number of young men went off to get shot at in Europe while the government kept their families imprisoned.

Things could have been similar with German Americans on the East Coast had Hitler posessed a Japanese size Navy and a threat of invasion existed. It might have been impractical given the sheer numbers of Americans with German ancestry. But doubtless German citizens would have been rounded up. As it was, many German organizations were watched like a hawk lest they start some kind of East Coast Niihau incident. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niihau_Incident)

There's also the fact that the Japanese in Hawaii weren't interned. This was again for practical purposes. In spite of the critical importance of Hawaii to the war, it was decided that actually locking up about a third of the population would be detrimental. Hoover had already advised that there was no need for internment.

[sackett]

MaG(got)Z is getting perfunctory, typing in little pieces of neo-Nazi boilerplate as if they were conclusive rejoinders. IOW, he's just repeating dogma that he's learned in what passes for Sunday school in his little set.

Did I say Sunday school? Sorry, I meant Scumday school.

I never use the Iggy button, but I believe I'm done with MaG. Sieg heil, and have a nice day.

[CptColumbo]

One of the more interesting inside looks at the Japanese internments, that I've read, was George Takei's autobiography To The Stars. http://www.amazon.com/Stars-Autobiography-George-Takei-Treks/dp/0671890093/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-2041072-6438425?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1184349033&sr=1-1

His childhood memories of how it affected his family are vivid, and his reaction and thoughts about the apology and reperations are heartfelt and bluntly honest.

[The Atheist]

Norway also had a government that cooperated with the germans. If I spit on Denmark, I defecate on Lithuania, Letland and Estonia But's thats a different subject.

I'm a bit disturbed, mate.

Either you're a lot older than me and take this personally, or you've just got yourself twisted up for no reason.

WWII was an extraordinary event and stands [so far] as the supreme example of human inhumanity and atrocities happened on all sides. Some were worse than others.

What point is there in harbouring resentment over half a century after the event? Yugoslavia provided a lovely example of what happens when those feelings are allowed to fester.

Isn't there sufficient hatred and animosity between countries without dragging up ones which now go back almost 70 years?

I agree with you on the facts, and I'm in the luxurious position of coming from a country with an almost impeccable balance sheet in both WWs (and the bloody Boer War, we just love fighting everyone else's battles) - high participation and casualty rates; praised on both sides for honesty and ferocity, with the sole atrocity committed at home.

War is an indescribable [and to my mind, inexplicable] blot on human history. WWII is the worst war we've had. Let it sit in the history class. I had an uncle killed in WWII and my father, grandfather, mother and other family members were active participants.

Ask a South African from the high veldt which country invented concentration camps and what the death-rate was in British ones.

Trade unionists, gypsies, homosexuals, and even a number of roman catholics also died in the holocaust. They should not be forgotten.

They aren't, but what I find interesting - as in every Holocaust discussion - the fags*, Gyppos and commies always get brought up straight after the Jews. "Don't forget the fags!" Glad you got as far as "a number of christians". Yes, it was "a number". A ####ing big one: >3M.

I did notice one person hadn't forgotten the other Europeans, but in numerical terms, as always, it's the Polacks who miss out. Not content with being the butt of an enormous number of jokes, the Poles gave 20% of their population to the death-machine. Let's not forget that the Holocaust wasn't just six million Jews, it was also six million Poles. Half of the Poles were Jewish, just as half the Jews were Polish.

Colour me cynical, but it is rarely presented that way. Not to mention, that once Poland had been "liberated" by Russia, they were subjected to a further half-century of joy.

People (and not just from one camp, people IN GENERAL) tend to exaggerate. That pretty much covers this issue.

And almost every other issue that gets heated discussions for that matter.(Bolding mine)

Very Zen. People tend to generalise too.

Which overstatement/exaggeration are you referring to?

The numbers? Hell, so they may be a little overstated and only three million died.

Does that make the Holocaust half as bad we thought it was yesterday?

See, the utter bollocks of your statement is similar to those who would have evolution and ID as 50:50 options. If the exaggeration is saying 6 million and the real number was only 4.3M, does that count the same as MaGz's exaggeration, reducing that 4,300,000 down to 237? After all, he's only exaggerating his case, eh?


*N.B. I am demonstrably gay-friendly and non-racist, epithets used for illustrative purposes only.

[parky76]

I'm just waiting for MaGz or any other Nazi to say, "the Holocaust didn't happen, because the Nazis had no reason to kill the Jews. The Jews were innocent victims and the Nazis saw them as such".

Deep down in MaGz's heart and soul, he knows the Holocaust happened, he is glad it happened, and he only wishes they had finished the job.

[tsig]

The Nazi holocaust was a conspiracy. Holocaust deniers are denying a conspiracy. Those who accept the holocaust are accepting a conspiracy.

The OP constructs the story using opposite semantics, characterizing holocaust denial as a conspiracy. Whatever your views on the holocaust and whatever your views on 9/11, it is much more semantically consistent to do as I have done, and that is call the holocaust what it was - a conspiracy.

English is widely used

You should learn it.

[Liszt]

Prof Antony Sutton´s brilliant Wall Street and the Rise of Hitler is available, complete, here

http://reformed-theology.org/html/books/wall_street/index.html

Not many Jews financing Hitler, but lots of bankers and other dodgy companies. MaGZ, have you read this one?

[parky76]

Yes, the Holocaust was a conspiracy. It was a conspiracy because it involved thousands of people conspiring to commit mass murder.

...But we all know..thats not what a "conspiracy theory" means in the modern day. The TRUE conspiracy theory involving the Holocaust..is that it DID NOT happen. The Holocaust was faked by rich Jewish bankers and Soviet kommisars inorder to get support for Israel. This is the real "conspiracy theory" when it comes to the Holocaust.

So stop playing stupid games..."Truthseeker". You are no truth seeker. labeling yourself that doesn't make it so.

[Corsair 115]

You're not alone. New Zealand did exactly the same, putting all Japs into concentration camps.As did Canada - Japanese-Canadian citizens were also put into internment camps for the duration of the war. It was not that long ago that the Canadian government officially apologized for that action. If I recall correctly, there were also ongoing negotiations for a financial compensation package of some kind for those who had been interned and their families.

[Foolmewunz]

So this Dane and Norwegian walk into a bar....

No, really! Last night in Hong Kong. I didn't bring up the topic but my two co-workers (Henrik from Cph / Anders from Oslo) were comparing notes on their own collaborationists from WWII.

Purely anecdotal, but Henrik's dad had six brothers. Three of them were fishermen who did the '43 escape run. Two of them were not involved at all, and the youngest joined the local Nazi party. The family legend is that the three fishermen were caught and shot returning to Denmark after making the trip to Sweden. (The other side of the legend is that no one speaks of the Nazi uncle.)

Like I said, ... purely anecdotal, but I was surprised to stumble on this conversation the evening after reading this thread, and intending to post on the below topics when I had some free time.



What's with the Dane-bashing? Really? The worst thing is the horrible legend of Kind King Christian and the Star, but that's somewhat akin to Americans wanting to believe that Betsy Ross sewed the flag on her front porch in a rocking chair, or many other such patriotic legends around the world.. The facts of the Danish occupation speak for themselves. They emigrated, illegally and at risk, around 7000 Danish Jews. Of the roughly 500 who were deported for internment, the "government" kept up a vocal public relations pressure on the Germans so that all but 51 of them were eventually repatriated to Denmark. Those numbers don't sound huge when you're counting 3 versus 6 million dead, but the number of Jews in Denmark was tiny. The numbers "saved" nearly equal to the entire Jewish population of the country.

Also, the fact that any major Danish resistance started in '43 is misleading. In retrospect, the Russian reversals were the beginning of the end, as we're now aware, but Western Europe was solidly defended. Anzio wasn't until early '44. There were no fronts anywhere that would indicate to a local Dane that liberation was near. It's much more logical to assume that it wasn't until '43 that the Germans started applying the iron fist a little more and thus any simmering resistance found more support.

Everyone in occupied Europe has embroidered their valiant resistance movement. In the 50s and 60s you couldn't meet a Frenchman over 35 who hadn't personally blown up a troop train or saved some important papers from the evil clutches of Les Bosches! Yeah! the French idea of "resistance" when the Germans marched into Paris was to raise the prices of the wine in the bistros! "Hey, hey, we'll show zem.... I just charged him 180 francs for a '33 Chateu D'Yqem! 1933! Can you imagine? Oh, zey are so, 'ow you say... gullible? Vive La France!"

[kookbreaker]

One of the more interesting inside looks at the Japanese internments, that I've read, was George Takei's autobiography To The Stars. http://www.amazon.com/Stars-Autobiography-George-Takei-Treks/dp/0671890093/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-2041072-6438425?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1184349033&sr=1-1

His childhood memories of how it affected his family are vivid, and his reaction and thoughts about the apology and reperations are heartfelt and bluntly honest.

I don't wanna buy any movie star biographies, can you give me the gist of his feelings?

[SpitfireIX]

. . .These people make me more upset than 9/11 deniers


I've noticed that the amount of anger I feel toward the proponents of any given conspiracy theory is roughly proportional to log10n, where n is the number of graves they're [expletive deleted]ing on. :mad:

[SpitfireIX]

Butz estimates the deaths of the Jews from ALL causes in the war at a quarter million.


Would you want to fly on a plane whose electrical system was designed by a historian?? If not, why do you uncritically accept history written by an electrical engineer (http://www.ece.northwestern.edu/faculty/Butz_Arthur.html)??

[SpitfireIX]

As the war continued, the Final Solution to the Jewish problem was to relocate them outside Europe toward the east. There never was a planned program of extermination.


No. This was (allegedly) the original plan--when the war started going badly, and there was no place to expel the Jews, then the Nazis decided on extermination. See the Wannsee Conference.

Jews were placed in relocation camps for the same reason Japanese, Germans, and Italians, were placed in camps in the US.

No. The Jews were not citizens (or children of citizens) of countries with which Germany was at war.

Look at what happened in the Andersonville POW camp in Georgia during the Civil War.


Apples and oranges. There were huge advances in medical knowledge and sanitation in the 75 years between the American Civil War and World War II.

[Corsair 115]

Apples and oranges. There were huge advances in medical knowledge and sanitation in the 75 years between the American Civil War and World War II.I half expect MaGZ to come back, read your comment, and proceed to tell us the U.S. Civil War was also the fault of the Jews.

[Foolmewunz]

I half expect MaGZ to come back, read your comment, and proceed to tell us the U.S. Civil War was also the fault of the Jews.

Abe Lincoln!!?? (wink wink nudge nudge)

[The Atheist]

I half expect MaGZ to come back, read your comment, and proceed to tell us the U.S. Civil War was also the fault of the Jews.

Well, DUH.

It was. That's when they took over. Abraham Lincoln.

[Foolmewunz]

Well, DUH.

It was. That's when they took over. Abraham Lincoln.

Neener! Neener! Neener! I type faster than you-ou do-o!

[Corsair 115]

Abe Lincoln!!?? (wink wink nudge nudge)Say no more, say no more!

[The Atheist]

Neener! Neener! Neener! I type faster than you-ou do-o!

So I see.

Wanker.

[Foolmewunz]

So I see.

Wanker.

Well, thank you, sir... Coming from the leading professional in the field, I'll take that as a compliment.

[MaGZ]

I would like to point out in counterpoint to the 'racist' accusation, that several thousand Italian families (and a few German) were also interred on the West Coast following the same pattern and target as Japanese families. Not that there wasn't an element of racism in the internment, but it was not as exclusive as some have made it out to be.

There was also the little fact that it was not impossible to be allowed to leave the internment camps. You would be allowed to leave (whatever your ancestry) if you pronounced loyalty to the US and agreed to move elsewhere in the USA. This ruined many people's established businesses and disrupted lives but it was more of an option than victims of the concentration camps ever had. Some 40,000 of the 110,000 Japanese Americans did relocate.

Things could have been similar with German Americans on the East Coast had Hitler posessed a Japanese size Navy and a threat of invasion existed. It might have been impractical given the sheer numbers of Americans with German ancestry. But doubtless German citizens would have been rounded up. As it was, many German organizations were watched like a hawk lest they start some kind of East Coast Niihau incident. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niihau_Incident)

Related links
http://www.foitimes.com/internment/Ellis.htm

http://www.foitimes.com/internment/cc_tx.htm

http://www.foitimes.com/

[MaGZ]

Well, DUH.

It was. That's when they took over. Abraham Lincoln.

No, they took over under FDR.

[MaGZ]

MaGZ, since you love them so much, why did not one camp gaurd, offical or senior Nazi Party member that was charged, and in many cases sentenced to death, use the defence that it never happened? Why did they all use defences base on following orders or it being acceptable under German law? Why didn't they say, prove that it happened? Why have none of the ones caught and tried in the past 50 years claimed that it never happened, that they were innocent because there was no holocaut? Why did they claim they were just following orders? If you were on trial for your life for a murder that never happened, would you claim as your defence that you did it because you were ordered too, or would you claim that you were innocent because there was no proof that a murder had occured?

Do the "War Crimes" Trials Prove Extermination?
The Nuremberg Trials and the Holocaust

http://vho.org/GB/Journals/JHR/12/2/Weber167-213.html


It is sometimes claimed that the evidence presented by the prosecution to the Nuremberg Tribunal was so incontrovertible that none of the defense attorneys ever disputed the authenticity or accuracy of even a single prosecution document. [46] This is not true. Not only did defense lawyers protest against the prosecution use of spurious documents, but some of the most important Nuremberg documents are now generally acknowledged to be fraudulent. [47]
For example, defense attorney Dr. Boehm protested to the Tribunal that Nuremberg document 1721-PS, which purportedly confirms attacks by stormtroopers against Jewish synagogues in November 1938, is a clumsy forgery. He went on to explain his reasons at some length. [48]
Several Nuremberg documents based on the purported "death bed confession" of Mauthausen commandant Franz Ziereis, are demonstrably fraudulent. (Nuremberg documents 1515-PS, 3870-PS, and NO-1973.) These documents supposedly prove systematic killings of hundreds of thousands of people by gassing and other means at Mauthausen and Hartheim. [49]
Almost forty years after the Tribunal handed down its verdicts, Nuremberg document USSR-378 was definitively exposed as a fraud. It is a purported record of numerous private conversations with Hitler by Hermann Rauschning, a former National Socialist official in Danzig. In brutal language, the Führer supposedly revealed his most intimate thoughts and secret plans for world conquest. Rauschning's "memoir" was published in 1939 in Britain under the title Hitler Speaks, and in the United States in 1940 as The Voice of Destruction. It was this US edition that was accepted in evidence at Nuremberg as proof of the "guiding principles of the Nazi regime."
Chief British prosecutor Sir Hartley Shawcross and his Soviet colleagues cited numerous quotations from it. Defendant Baldur von Schirach contested its authenticity, but defense attorney Pelckmann (who did not know any better) accepted this "evidence" as authentic.[50] In 1983 Swiss historian Wolfgang Hänel established that the "memoir" is entirely fraudulent. Rauschning never had even a single private meeting with Hitler. [51]
Another fraudulent Nuremberg document is the so-called "Hossbach protocol" (document 386-PS), a purported record of a high-level 1937 conference at which Hitler supposedly revealed his secret plans for aggressive conquest. US Nuremberg prosecutor Sidney Alderman called it "one of the most striking and revealing of all the captured documents," and told the Tribunal that it removed any remaining doubts about the guilt of the Germans leaders for their crimes against peace. It was largely on the basis of this document that Göring was condemned to death. [52]
Similarly spurious is Nuremberg document L-3 (US-28), supposedly a record of a bellicose speech by Hitler to armed forces commanders on August 22, 1939. It contains a widelycited quotation attributed to Hitler, "Who talks nowadays of the extermination of the Armenians?" [53]
Jewish historian Lucy Dawidowicz, author of The War Against the Jews, acknowledged that "There are also Holocaust documents that are outright falsification and some that purvey myth rather than historical fact." [54]

[MaGZ]

"No documents of a plan for exterminating the Jews have ever been found..."
http://vho.org/GB/Journals/JHR/12/2/Weber167-213.html

In the years since the Nuremberg trials, historians of many different countries have carefully sifted through the German records, including countless documents that were not available to the Nuremberg prosecutors. Historians have been able to compare and cross-check the records of different ministries and agencies, as well as numerous private diaries and papers. [37]
And yet, out of this great mass of paper, not a single document has ever been found that confirms or even refers to an extermination program. A number of historians have commented on this remarkable "gap" in the evidence. French-Jewish historian Leon Poliakov, for example, noted in his best-known Holocaust work:
The archives of the Third Reich and the depositions and accounts of its leaders make possible a reconstruction, down to the last detail, of the origin and development of the plans for aggression, the military campaigns, and the whole array of procedures by which the Nazis intended to reshape the world to their liking. Only the campaign to exterminate the Jews, as regards its conception as well as many other essential aspects, remains shrouded in darkness.

No documents of a plan for exterminating the Jews have ever been found, he added, because "perhaps none ever existed." [38]

[MaGZ]

God bless'em!
But the scary part is, that we are slowly losing those generations. (Also a great reason for spielberg to do something like his Shoah project) Will CT'ers have a leg to stand on when that happens?

The survivors testimonies are not reliable.
http://vho.org/GB/Journals/JHR/12/2/Weber167-213.html


Shmuel Krakowski, archives director of the Israeli government's Holocaust center, Yad Vashem, confirmed in 1986 that more than 10,000 of the 20,000 "testimonies" of Jewish "survivors" on file there are "unreliable." Many survivors, wanting "to be part of history" may have let their imaginations run away with them, Krakowski said. "Many were never in the places where they claimed to have witnessed atrocities, while others relied on second-hand information given them by friends or passing strangers." He confirmed that many of the testimonies on file at Yad Vashem were later proved to be inaccurate when locations and dates could not pass an expert historian's appraisal. [62]

[MaGZ]

Torture was used to get convictions at the war crime trials.
http://vho.org/GB/Journals/JHR/12/2/Weber167-213.html

Allied prosecutors used torture to help prove their case at Nuremberg and other postwar trials. [72]
Former Auschwitz commandant Rudolf Höss was tortured by British officials into signing a false and self-incriminating "confession" that has been widely cited as a key document of Holocaust extermination. His testimony before the Nuremberg Tribunal, a high point of the proceeding, was perhaps the most striking and memorable evidence presented there of a German extermination program. [73] Höss maintained that two and half million people had been killed in Auschwitz gas chambers, and that another 500,000 inmates had died there of other causes. No serious or reputable historian now accepts either of these fantastic figures, and other key portions of Höss' "confession" are now generally acknowledged to be untrue. [74]
Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn has cited the case of Jupp Aschenbrenner, a Bavarian who was tortured into signing a statement that he had worked on mobile gas chambers ("gas vans") during the war. It wasn't until several years later that he was finally able to prove that he had actually spent that time in Munich studying to become an electric welder. [75]
Nuremberg defendant Julius Streicher, who was eventually hanged because he published a sometimes sensational anti-Jewish weekly paper, was brutally mistreated following his arrest. He was badly beaten, kicked, whipped, spat at, forced to drink saliva and burned with cigarettes. His genitals were beaten. Eyebrow and chest hair was pulled out. He was stripped and photographed. Fellow defendant Hans Frank was savagely beaten by two black GIs shortly after his arrest. August Eigruber, former Gauleiter of Upper Austria, was mutilated and castrated at the end of the war. [78]
Josef Kramer, former commandant of both the BergenBelsen and Auschwitz-Birkenau camps, and other defendants in the British-run "Belsen" trial, were reportedly also tortured, some of them so brutally that they begged to be put to death. [79]

[Firestone]

MaGZ, WHERE are the millions of Jews who were there before the war and not there after it?

MaGZ, WHERE are the millions of Jews deported to the camps and who weren't there at the liberation?

MaGZ, WHERE are the many members of my family who didn't show up after the war, but definitely existed before it?

MaGZ, how can you believe in "missiles at ground zero" that noone has ever seen and for which there is not the slightest evidende, and deny the murder of millions of innocent human beings who actually existed before the war and were missing after it?

MaGZ, **deleted because my MA calls for civility, altough you don't deserve it**

[Tirdun]

"No documents of a plan for exterminating the Jews have ever been found..."

You really are predictable at this point.

Under proper guidance, in the course of the final solution the Jews are to be allocated for appropriate labor in the East. Able-bodied Jews, separated according to sex, will be taken in large work columns to these areas for work on roads, in the course of which action doubtless a large portion will be eliminated by natural causes.
The possible final remnant will, since it will undoubtedly consist of the most resistant portion, have to be treated accordingly, because it is the product of natural selection and would, if released, act as a the seed of a new Jewish revival (see the experience of history.)

Or


The Commander of the security police and the SD Einsatzkommando 3
Kauen [Kaunas], 1 December 1941

Complete list of executions carried out in the EK 3 area
up to 1 December 1941

Security police duties in Lithuania taken over by Einsatzkommando 3 on
2 July 1941.
(The Wilna [Vilnius] area was taken over by EK 3 on 9 Aug. 1941, the
Schaulen area on 2 Oct. 1941. Up until these dates EK 9 operated in
Wilna and EK 2 in Schaulen.)
On my instructions and orders the following executions were conducted by
Lithuanian partisans:

4.7.41 Kauen-Fort VII 416 Jews, 47 Jewesses 463
6.7.41 Kauen-Fort VII Jews 2,514
(continues)


Or


Es trat an uns die Frage heran: Wie ist es mit den Frauen und Kindern? - Ich habe mich entschlossen, auch hier eine ganz klare Loesung zu finden. Ich hielt mich naemlich nicht fuer berechtigt, die Maenner auszurotten - SPRICH ALSO UMZUBRINGEN ODER UMBRINGEN ZU LASSEN - und die Raecher in Gestalt der Kinder fuer unsere Soehne und Enkel gross werden zu lassen. Es musste der schwere Entschluss gefasst werden, dieses Volk von der Erde erschwinden zu lassen.

We were confronted with the question: what about the women and children? - I have decided to find here too an absolutely clear solution. That means, I considered myself not authorized to exterminate the men - IN OTHER WORDS TO KILL THEM OR TO ORDER THEM TO BE KILLED - and to allow the children to grow up as avengers on our sons and grandchildren. The very difficult decision had to be made to make this people vanish from the earth.

Himmler October 4th, 1943.

OR


August September October November

Prisoners executed
after interrogation 2,100 1,400 1,596 2,731
.
.
Accomplices of guerrilla and
guerrilla suspects executed 1,198 3,020 6,333 3,706
.
.
Jews executed 31,246 165,282 95,735 70,948
.
.
Villages and localities
Burned down or destroyed 35 12 20 92


OR

Today I want to be a prophet once more: if international finance Jewry inside and outside of Europe should succeed once more in plunging nations into another world war, the consequence will not be the Bolshevation of the earth and thereby the victory of Jewry, but the annihilation of the Jewish race in Europe. (die Vernichtung der jüdischen Rasse in Europa)

And, of course, endless testimony at Nuremberg.

Please refrain from posting links to denier sites as any sort of evidence. I've seen them and they are worthless filth.

[MaGZ]

Anyway, I am Just finishing Albert Speer and his Battle with Truth by Sereny. Facinating and frightening. The only conclusion is that the Top Brass knew what the grunts doing the killing knew. It was policy. It was intended. They were sorry they didn't get more.

If the ‘holocaust’ happened Speer would have known about it.
http://vho.org/GB/Journals/JHR/12/2/Weber167-213.html


The case of Albert Speer, one-time Hitler confidant and wartime Armaments Minister, deserves special mention. His Nuremberg defense strategy was unique and also rather successful because he did not hang. While maintaining that he personally knew nothing of an extermination program during the war, he nevertheless declared himself morally culpable for having worked so diligently for a regime he belatedly came to regard as evil. After serving a twenty-year sentence in Spandau prison, the "repentant Nazi" was "rehabilitated" by the mass media for his somewhat subtle but fervent condemnation of the Hitler regime. His contrite memoir, published in the US as Inside the Third Reich, was highly acclaimed and sold very profitably in Europe and America.
Until his death in 1981, Speer steadfastly insisted that he did not know of any extermination program or gassings during the war. His position was remarkable because, if a wartime policy to exterminate the Jews had actually existed, almost no one would have been in a better position to have known about it. As Reich Armaments Minister, Speer was responsible for the continental mobilization of all available resources, including critically needed Jewish workers. That millions of Jews could have been transported across Europe and killed at a wartime industrial center as important as Auschwitz, and elsewhere, without Speer's knowledge simply defies belief. [103]

[Nick Terry]

If the ‘holocaust’ happened Speer would have known about it.
http://vho.org/GB/Journals/JHR/12/2/Weber167-213.html

The small catch with this is Speer DID admit his knowledge when he was no longer at risk of further prosecution. In 1977. In a case concerning Arthur Butz's The Hoax of the Twentieth Century in its German edition.

For more on that, see Gitta Sereny's biography of Speer.

[SpitfireIX]

It's so sad because the Nazis had a reputation of being so efficient in all other areas. Unfortunately, when it came to maintaining relocation camps, they just couldn't manage the program effectively.

I feel very bad that they were unable to feed all of those refugees appropriately. The pictures I saw of how they looked when the camps were liberated showed they had lost a great deal of weight. The really sad part is that they were able to get sufficient food to their own troops guarding the camps and that all of the civilians living near the camps had sufficient food as well.

But I'll tell you that the guy who accidentally didn't hook the shower room up to a water suppy had to be the worst Nazi in the third reich. Then when the Nazis negligently dropped Zyklon B into the shower room, that just compounded the error. You'd think the twenty solid minutes of screaming, crying, gagging and moaning would have alerted them to the problem.

And whose idea was is to pull the fillings out of the refugees' teeth? I mean, maybe Germany needed the gold for the war effort but that certainly just exacerbated any health problems in the camps. Some SS guard gets Bonehead Of The Year for that one.

Packing the rairway cars so tight that the Jews inside couldn't even sit down for the several day ride to the camps was, well, not good resource management. A lot of those people died in the cars and never even got to the refugee camps. And I heard that the guy who put together those train schedules was put on trial. How did that turn out?

In all, that vaunted German efficiency was missing from the big relocation project. Let's hope that next time they're able to do a better job.


I'd laugh at your biting satire if the subject weren't so heartbreaking. :(

[parky76]

Before WW2 there were between 3.3 milliion and 2.8 million Jews in Poland. After the war, only 300, 000 remained. Where did these Jews go? The Jewish populations of all European nations decreased (except for Bulgaria, God bless them) after WW2. 2.5 million Polish Jews did not go to Israel, or Russia, or the USA. So where did these people go?

[SpitfireIX]

Do the "War Crimes" Trials Prove Extermination?
The Nuremberg Trials and the Holocaust

http://vho.org/GB/Journals/JHR/12/2/Weber167-213.html


From the above-linked article:

If the Nuremberg Tribunal's standards had been applied to the victors of the Second World War, American General and supreme Allied commander in Europe Dwight Eisenhower would have been hanged. At the end of the war Eisenhower ordered that German prisoners in American military custody were no longer to be treated according to the Geneva Convention on the treatment of prisoners of war. This violation of international law removed masses of Germans from the protection of the International Red Cross (ICRC), and condemned hundreds of thousands of them to slow death by starvation and disease. [33]

[Notes:]

33. James Bacque, Other Losses (Toronto: Stoddart, 1989). See especially pp. 26-28.


As I demonstrated in this post (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=2662316&postcount=75) (which you have ignored), Bacque's book is, in the words of Stephen Ambrose, "worse than worthless." No serious historian would use such a thoroughly discredited source as Other Losses; that Weber would do so is prima facie evidence that he is merely attempting to push his (and your) agenda, the truth be damned. Therefore, Weber's entire article is rejected--the burden of proof is now on you to show that any of Weber's claims are accurate using other sources.

http://www.ukgameshows.com/page/images/thumb/2/20/Weakest_link_off3.jpg/150px-Weakest_link_off3.jpg

You are the weakest link. Goodbye!

(And the article is irrelevant in any case, as you are merely attempting to change the subject from why none of the defendants claimed the Holocaust didn't happen to whether the Nuremberg Trials were fair.)

[Belz...]

The survivors testimonies are not reliable.

About their OWN experiences that lasted months, if not years ???

This isn't a UFO sighting, here.

[firecoins]

holocaust happaned. Hitler and the Nazis did it. Proven beyong any doubt.

Stalin killed million of his own people. Left no witnesses at all. Proven beyond any doubt as well.

[MG1962]

holocaust happaned. Hitler and the Nazis did it. Proven beyong any doubt.

Stalin killed million of his own people. Left no witnesses at all. Proven beyond any doubt as well.


Please refrain from ad hommini use of common sense. It may disturb some readers

[PhantomWolf]

You're not alone. New Zealand did exactly the same, putting all Japs into concentration camps. One horrific incident - a massacre of 50 prisoners in 1943 - only came to light ten or so years ago. It had been hushed up for nearly half a century and the perpetrators of a massacre of defenceless prisoners walked away, scot-free.

Let he who is without sin...

Firstly, it wasn't hushed up, The Masterton Incident was well known about, and has been since it occured. Secondly, it was a POW camp where Japanese soldiers who had been captured in the Pacific Theatre were brought, not an concentration camp. Thirdly, the prinsoners were not "defenseless" but were actually armed with an asortment of homemade weapons and knives, fourthly while one of the NZ guards did fire at one of the prisoners first, there were 50 gaurds and 250 prisoners, the killings didn't take place until the prisoners charged the guards and attacked them, the guards then reacted in self-defence, with the action occuring in less than a minute all up.

So while it is debatable whether the initial action taken when one of the prisoners was shot at was defendable, and there was certainly a sad lack of managment and skills in the guards (who were mostly recruits and teenagers,) that the prisoners armed themselves and then staged a sit in, refusing to work, shows that they were planning to do exactly what happened. Further it could be noted that had the boot been on the other foot and the prisoners been Allied forced and the camp guards Japanese, the results would have been far more horrific.

[Loss Leader]

I'd laugh at your biting satire if the subject weren't so heartbreaking. :(


As Mel Brooks said:

"Hitler was part of this incredible idea that you could put Jews in concentration camps and kill them. And how do you get even? How do you get even with the man? How do you get even with him? There's only one way to get even," Brooks explained. "You have to bring him down with ridicule. Because if you stand on a soapbox and you match him with rhetoric, you're just as bad as he is. But if you can make people laugh at him, then you're one up on him. And it's been one of my lifelong jobs has been to make the world laugh at Adolf Hitler."

(source (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/06/08/60minutes/main1695146_page3.shtml))

[MaGZ]

From the above-linked article:




As I demonstrated in this post (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=2662316&postcount=75) (which you have ignored), Bacque's book is, in the words of Stephen Ambrose, "worse than worthless." No serious historian would use such a thoroughly discredited source as Other Losses; that Weber would do so is prima facie evidence that he is merely attempting to push his (and your) agenda, the truth be damned. Therefore, Weber's entire article is rejected--the burden of proof is now on you to show that any of Weber's claims are accurate using other sources.


Mark Weber on Other Losses.

One of the most important works of Revisionist history to be published since the last IHR conference is Other Losses, a book published in September 1989 in Canada. In this work, Canadian author James Bacque presents compelling evidence to show that American and French military forces were responsible for the deliberate deaths of about a million German prisoners of war.

The principle figure responsible for this atrocity, Bacque shows, was Allied commander, and later U.S. president, General Dwight Eisenhower. By removing German prisoners of war under American control from the protection of the International Committee of the Red Cross, Eisenhower broke international law and committed an act for which, under the standards of the Nuremberg Tribunal, he could have been hanged. Bacque's book also documents the complicity of the New York Times and the International Committee of the Red Cross in suppressing the truth of this atrocity. Other Losses has prompted a flood of letters and reminiscences by many former German prisoners and American GIs who have provided detailed further confirmation of the essential truthfulness of Bacque's book.

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v10/v10p439_Weber.html

The Plagiarist: Why Stephen Ambrose is a vampire

http://www.slate.com/?id=2060618

[Belz...]

How does that change anything about the Holocaust ?

[Damien Evans]

The Allies did nothing about bombing the camps because they knew it was propaganda.

An interesting point: The ‘Holocaust’ was invented in the early 1970's. Look at a dictionary or encyclopedia printed before 1970 and you will not find the ‘Holocaust’ mentioned.

Not true.

The word "Holocaust" was first used in its Old English form in the 13th century.

[gumboot]

Not true.

The word "Holocaust" was first used in its Old English form in the 13th century.


Not to mention "Holocaust" (ὁλόκαυστον) is a Greek offering to the Gods in which the entire animal is burnt. The term has been in use for at least three thousand years.

The usage for which it is now associated, meaning "massacre, destruction of large number of persons" dates back to 1833.

-Gumboot

ETA. And the Nazi treatment of the Jews was first referred to as a "holocaust" as early as 1942.

[Damien Evans]

Not to mention "Holocaust" (ὁλόκαυστον) is a Greek offering to the Gods in which the entire animal is burnt. The term has been in use for at least three thousand years.

The usage for which it is now associated, meaning "massacre, destruction of large number of persons" dates back to 1833.

-Gumboot

ETA. And the Nazi treatment of the Jews was first referred to as a "holocaust" as early as 1942.

Really? I had no idea it was that old, but i disagree about the 1833 date, as, according to The History Of Britain (BBC), King Edward I used it to refer to a massacre of English Jews (Originally from a written source, the name of which currently escapes me)

[SpitfireIX]

Mark Weber on Other Losses.

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v10/v10p439_Weber.html


Irrelevant. Weber claims his source is highly credible. Where is the independent confirmation of that?

The Plagiarist: Why Stephen Ambrose is a vampire

http://www.slate.com/?id=2060618


Argumentum ad hominem abusive. You can't refute any of the criticism of Bacque by Ambrose or any other serious historian, so you're reduced to calling attention to the Ambrose plagiarism scandal.

I'll have a much more detailed response to this tomorrow, when I don't have to work.

[headscratcher4]

--when the war started going badly, and there was no place to expel the Jews, then the Nazis decided on extermination. See the Wannsee Conference.



.

Disagree...the Commisar Order and the formation of the various action groups that followed the German Army East at the outset of the war show that extermination was on the front burner...not something that was decided after the war went bad. After the war started going bad...exterminating as many as possible as quickly as possible became a priority.. often at the expense of the military...but it was merely to further a basic policy that was in place at the outset.

[headscratcher4]

If the ‘holocaust’ happened Speer would have known about it.
[/URL]

Indeed, and there is little doubt that Speer did know about it....in spite of his deniles.

[Belz...]

Not to mention "Holocaust" (ὁλόκαυστον) is a Greek offering to the Gods in which the entire animal is burnt. The term has been in use for at least three thousand years.

The usage for which it is now associated, meaning "massacre, destruction of large number of persons" dates back to 1833.

Indeed, kinda like "Hécatombe" (εκατόμϐη), which comes from the sacrifice of a hundred animals, and is now used in French, amongst other meanings, to describe any massacre.

[SpitfireIX]

As Mel Brooks said:

"Hitler was part of this incredible idea that you could put Jews in concentration camps and kill them. And how do you get even? How do you get even with the man? How do you get even with him? There's only one way to get even," Brooks explained. "You have to bring him down with ridicule. Because if you stand on a soapbox and you match him with rhetoric, you're just as bad as he is. But if you can make people laugh at him, then you're one up on him. And it's been one of my lifelong jobs has been to make the world laugh at Adolf Hitler."

(source (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/06/08/60minutes/main1695146_page3.shtml))


Oh, I wholeheartedly concur; I just can't laugh at the actual killings (very often). When I was a kid Hogan's Heroes was one of my favorite "grown-up" shows. As you may know (though I suspect a lot of people don't), Werner Klemperer, John Banner, Howard Caine, and Leon Askin, who played the four main Nazi characters, were all Jews. So is Robert Clary, who played Corporal LeBeau. Askin's parents died at Treblinka; Clary survived three years in Buchenwald and other camps (his parents and four sisters did not), in part because the guards enjoyed his singing.

[aggle-rithm]

Oh, I wholeheartedly concur; I just can't laugh at the actual killings (very often). When I was a kid Hogan's Heroes was one of my favorite "grown-up" shows. As you may know (though I suspect a lot of people don't), Werner Klemperer, John Banner, Howard Caine, and Leon Askin, who played the four main Nazi characters, were all Jews. So is Robert Clary, who played Corporal LeBeau. Askin's parents died at Treblinka; Clary survived three years in Buchenwald and other camps (his parents and four sisters did not), in part because the guards enjoyed his singing.

I've heard that "Hogan's Heroes" remains popular in Germany.

[SpitfireIX]

I've heard that "Hogan's Heroes" remains popular in Germany.


Yes, but--the "but," being that the dubbed dialog completely changes the show's original storyline. From "Hogan's Heroes and the Holocaust: The Association That Just Won't Go Away," a paper (http://www.geocities.com/lrampey/hogan.htm) by Leslie Campbell Rampey:

The last place, however, that anyone ever expected the show to find an audience was Germany. Indeed, it wasn’t even tried there until 1992, and then it was "a ratings flop" (Cowell, 4:3). It was determined that radical surgery was what was needed, and Hogan’s Heroes now flourishes in Germany under the title Ein Kafig Voller Helden ("A Cageful of Heroes"). But what a different Hogan’s Heroes it is. It is: (a) nothing its U.S. audience would recognize; and (b) everything that its original 1960s critics feared it would be.

"Creative dubbing" is the term most often used to describe the German-altered text of Ein Kafig Voller Helden. Creative, indeed. While no translation from one language to another reproduces the original one hundred percent accurately, "bombs" usually are not translated as "condoms." Yet, that’s what the Germans of the German version of Hogan’s Heroes drop on London. In keeping with post-war Germany’s preference for avoiding "Heil Hitler" salutes and other Nazi Party practices, German characters accompany their stiff-armed gestures with such exclamations as "This is how high the cornflowers grow!" The Germans even have invented a new character: "In Germany Now, Col. Klink’s Maid Cleans in the Nude" proclaims a headline in the Wall Street Journal (Steinmetz, A1). In the original 1960s U.S. version of the show, Col. Klink did not have a maid, and no one ever was said to be in the nude. And more is going on here than textual alterations and additions. The voices of Klink and Shultz and other Germans are rendered in regional accents that are said to be inherently comic to the German ear – possibly something like the characters Jed Clampett and Gomer Pyle sound to us. The effect of this, says a Munich newspaper commentator, is to make the German characters ‘"absolutely non-threatening’" (Cowell, 4:3). [Wikipedia references added]

[SpitfireIX]

Disagree...the Commisar Order and the formation of the various action groups that followed the German Army East at the outset of the war show that extermination was on the front burner...not something that was decided after the war went bad. After the war started going bad...exterminating as many as possible as quickly as possible became a priority.. often at the expense of the military...but it was merely to further a basic policy that was in place at the outset.


I'll grant that characterizing the Final Solution as having developed in stages might be more accurate. There's still a lot of debate among historians about exactly how and when this happened. Although the idea to kill all the Jews encountered in the Soviet Union clearly started with or before the German invasion, there is some evidence that the plan to exterminate all the Jews in Europe didn't take shape until around the end of 1941, after the German Army had failed to capture Moscow.

On the other hand, it's also possible that the deportation plan was merely a smokescreen to conceal Hitler's true plans for the Jews from those Germans who were less than enthusiastic about mass murder.

[headscratcher4]

Indeed...Wansse was, it would seem, about formalizing not only Goreing's command to find a final solution to the Jewish "question"...and that was post invasion. I would agree that the formal intention to kill all the Jews...made manifest in the creation of death factories...was evolutionary. But it was also the inevitable result not only of ideology but Nazi practice both in Germany, the Reich and in occupied territories. In any event, the point was that the Commisar Order showed that murder of the Jews was an extrememly high priority in the Russian campaign.

[gumboot]

In 1939 Hitler said in a speech at the Reichstag that a war would result in the destruction of Jewry in Europe.

That's pretty clear if you ask me.

-Gumboot

[gumboot]

Really? I had no idea it was that old, but i disagree about the 1833 date, as, according to The History Of Britain (BBC), King Edward I used it to refer to a massacre of English Jews (Originally from a written source, the name of which currently escapes me)

The word "holocaust" in its English manifestation only dates back to about 1250, and is specifically in reference to Jewish religious practices. (Jews, like Greeks and Romans, burned whole animals as a sacrifice). It's quite possible that Edward I made reference to their expulsion in relation to their religious rites. However the term "holocaust" did not begin to commonly appear as a generic word for any massacre until the mid 19th Century.

-Gumboot

[SpitfireIX]

In 1939 Hitler said in a speech at the Reichstag that a war would result in the destruction of Jewry in Europe.

That's pretty clear if you ask me.

-Gumboot


Yes, but--this time, the "but" is, even if you're an evil absolute dictator, you can't just issue orders to murder millions of people through normal channels--you have to determine who's reliable, convince or coerce people who may be reluctant to go along with the plan, etc.

Also, the fact that Hitler said this doesn't necessarily mean he was announcing that that destruction would come at the hands of the Nazis, or that most people took it as anything other than overblown rhetoric at the time. Though it may seem so in hindsight, we can't be certain that Hitler was stating his intention to exterminate the Jews, but that's obviously a strong possibility.

[Drudgewire]

There is also the judgment in Irving v Penguin Books & Lipstadt:

http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/QB/2000/115.html
Bumping this link because it provides a better rebuttal to revisionists than any book, video or website I've ever seen.

Nothing like hoping to advance your fraudulent agenda through a legal system that isn't entertained by fraud.

[Rika]

I remember reading the book that Professor Evans (can't remember his first name, sorry) wrote about it. I've been meaning to find his WWII books.

[gumboot]

Yes, but--this time, the "but" is, even if you're an evil absolute dictator, you can't just issue orders to murder millions of people through normal channels--you have to determine who's reliable, convince or coerce people who may be reluctant to go along with the plan, etc.

Also, the fact that Hitler said this doesn't necessarily mean he was announcing that that destruction would come at the hands of the Nazis, or that most people took it as anything other than overblown rhetoric at the time. Though it may seem so in hindsight, we can't be certain that Hitler was stating his intention to exterminate the Jews, but that's obviously a strong possibility.


Taken in context with what the Nazis were doing at the time, what he had said previously, what he had written in his book, what laws were being passed, what Jewish intellectuals who had fled Germany were saying, and Kristallnacht, it was pretty obvious what was to come.

The Holocaust was as obvious as WW2 was, it's just no one was willing to connect the dots, and no one was willing to accept that the unthinkable was about to happen. There's a good reason for this. Once you accepted what was happening, you had no choice but to act.

The denialism of Pre-WW2 nations is only the most identifiable example of one of the least admirable aspects of humanity.

-Gumboot

[westprog]

Indeed, and there is little doubt that Speer did know about it....in spite of his denials.

Oh, come on. What possible reason could one of the most senior Nazis have for denying that he knew about exterminating the Jews? Things have come to a pretty pass when we doubt the word of the German Minister for Armaments.

The thousands of survivors of the camps are clearly lying though.

[JimBenArm]

As Mel Brooks said:

"Hitler was part of this incredible idea that you could put Jews in concentration camps and kill them. And how do you get even? How do you get even with the man? How do you get even with him? There's only one way to get even," Brooks explained. "You have to bring him down with ridicule. Because if you stand on a soapbox and you match him with rhetoric, you're just as bad as he is. But if you can make people laugh at him, then you're one up on him. And it's been one of my lifelong jobs has been to make the world laugh at Adolf Hitler."

(source (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/06/08/60minutes/main1695146_page3.shtml))
That's why I voted for Mel as the funniest man in the Community forum.

Who else could show the absurdity that Hitler was?

[MaGZ]

Not true.

The word "Holocaust" was first used in its Old English form in the 13th century.

Okay, but it was never used in reference to the death of Jews in WWII until the 1970's.

[headscratcher4]

Bumping this link because it provides a better rebuttal to revisionists than any book, video or website I've ever seen.

Nothing like hoping to advance your fraudulent agenda through a legal system that isn't entertained by fraud.

Of course, the revisionists will ignore any court that takes on Irving because it is part of a system manipulated by the jews. They're like ID'ers and Creationsist in that way.

You can pile the documents and proof as high as a mountain...and it can always be "faked" or manipulated.

[headscratcher4]

Okay, but it was never used in reference to the death of Jews in WWII until the 1970's.

And that proves what...if true (which, btw, there is no reason to believe your assertion)?

It isn't as if the idea that the Germans set out specifically to target millions of Jews only emerged in th 70s....it was asserted well before that...beginning with the post-war trials...not to mention the founding of the Wannsee minutes in 1947...or the reporting of the 1943 Posnan speech by Himmiler.

So: even If the term holocause was not used as a wrap-around for the actions taken against the Jews till the 70s -- again, an unproven assertion by you -- so what? How does the word change the facts on the ground?

[MaGZ]

Not to mention "Holocaust" (ὁλόκαυστον) is a Greek offering to the Gods in which the entire animal is burnt. The term has been in use for at least three thousand years.

The usage for which it is now associated, meaning "massacre, destruction of large number of persons" dates back to 1833.

-Gumboot

ETA. And the Nazi treatment of the Jews was first referred to as a "holocaust" as early as 1942.

Please provide something to support that last point.

[MaGZ]

Oh, I wholeheartedly concur; I just can't laugh at the actual killings (very often). When I was a kid Hogan's Heroes was one of my favorite "grown-up" shows. As you may know (though I suspect a lot of people don't), Werner Klemperer, John Banner, Howard Caine, and Leon Askin, who played the four main Nazi characters, were all Jews. So is Robert Clary, who played Corporal LeBeau. Askin's parents died at Treblinka; Clary survived three years in Buchenwald and other camps (his parents and four sisters did not), in part because the guards enjoyed his singing.

Will you then agree with me that Hogan's Heros was Jew propaganda?

[funk de fino]

anyone who is suggesting this holocaust did not happen should visit the Anne Frank house in Amsterdam

in fact everyone should try and visit it, very educational as well as emotional

[MaGZ]

I'll grant that characterizing the Final Solution as having developed in stages might be more accurate. There's still a lot of debate among historians about exactly how and when this happened. Although the idea to kill all the Jews encountered in the Soviet Union clearly started with or before the German invasion, there is some evidence that the plan to exterminate all the Jews in Europe didn't take shape until around the end of 1941, after the German Army had failed to capture Moscow.

On the other hand, it's also possible that the deportation plan was merely a smokescreen to conceal Hitler's true plans for the Jews from those Germans who were less than enthusiastic about mass murder.

‘Smokescreen?’
Many Jews were allowed to leave Germany. If there was a planned program of extermination, why were so many Jews allowed to leave?

[MaGZ]

And that proves what...if true (which, btw, there is no reason to believe your assertion)?

It isn't as if the idea that the Germans set out specifically to target millions of Jews only emerged in th 70s....it was asserted well before that...beginning with the post-war trials...not to mention the founding of the Wannsee minutes in 1947...or the reporting of the 1943 Posnan speech by Himmiler.

So: even If the term holocause was not used as a wrap-around for the actions taken against the Jews till the 70s -- again, an unproven assertion by you -- so what? How does the word change the facts on the ground?

It proves ‘The Holocaust’ was devised as a political weapon in the 1970's.