The aluminum of Flights 11 & 175 was used to create phreato-thermatic explosions.

[Max Photon]

---

Greetings Everyone!

Max Photon here.


Here is an article I wrote.


MAX-MIHOP Says: The Aluminum Components of Flights 11 and 175 Were Used as Aluminum Powder for Phreato-Thermatic Explosions (http://maxphoton.com/2007/06/11/maxmihop-says-flight-175s-aluminum-skin-became-the-aluminum-powder-in-a-phreatothermatic-explosion.aspx)


I welcome your comments and criticism.


Regards,

Maxwell C. Photon
Department of Lighting

---

[Unsecured Coins]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v295/Jaye77/2192640ey8.jpg

my doggy has muscles.

[beachnut]

---

Here is an article I wrote.


MAX-MIHOP Says: The Aluminum Components of Flights 11 and 175 Were Used as Aluminum Powder for Phreato-Thermatic Explosions (http://maxphoton.com/2007/06/11/maxmihop-says-flight-175s-aluminum-skin-became-the-aluminum-powder-in-a-phreatothermatic-explosion.aspx)

I welcome your comments and criticism.

Regards,

Maxwell C. Photon---
Obtuse, no real conclusions, false information, and irrational ranting that lack organization. If graded, an F.

[Unsecured Coins]

I gave it an F-

[PhantomWolf]

Phreato-Thermatic

You keep using this word, I do not think it means what you think it means.

[Cl1mh4224rd]

I gave it an F-


Your dog ate it before I could read it... :(

[Unsecured Coins]

Your dog ate it before I could read it... :(

I wouldn't ask for it back. When Scrappy here humps your leg.. it STAYS humped.

[ktesibios]

Argument by repeated unsupported assertion, uninformed opinion masquerading as evidence, highly suspicious and unverifiable claims of expertise, near-supersonic handwaving, blog closed to comments and the most annoying writing style I've seen in years.

We're way past the kittens and recipes threshold here.

Lookit the cute li'l baby hippo.

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/3784694516dedd61.jpg

[Max Photon]

---

Max Photon here.

Pseudo-gangs are making noise.

They only spontaneously emerge when there is something good.

Thanks guys. I take it as a compliment.


Yours Truly (as only Light can be)

Sir Maxwell Photon

----

[Rahne Everson]

You keep using this word, I do not think it means what you think it means.

Thermate ground water?

[Rahne Everson]

Yours Truly (as only Light can be)

Sir Maxwell Photon

----

Sir Maxwell C. Photon? I mean, we have to get it straight.

[Max Photon]

---

Max here.

Some have asked about the phrase: phreato-thermatic explosion

You are correct - Phreato means underground water.

I could have used "littoral" but, as you can imagine, that has a rather wide, exposed flank.

I chose "phreato" because "underground" can also mean "clandestine"

"Hidden water" or "clandestine water" or "secretly-stored water"

In my paper I point out that this name is probably temporary, and that I was using it until better comes along.

If you have a better name, I am more than receptive.

Thanks for your input.

Max

---

[WildCat]

We're way past the kittens and recipes threshold here.
That's all I need to whip this out again...

http://home.mindspring.com/~turniton/COTC/911insidejob.jpg

[Miss Anthrope]

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/125174668bc3f8b676.jpg

[WildCat]

If you have a better name, I am more than receptive.
ridiculous
farcical
preposterous
laughable
silly
ludicrous
comical
risible

One of those should work nicely.

[Totovader]

------====== Wow ======------

I REALLY hate it when "PEOPLE" abuse the formatting system in an effort to appease their own narcissistic tendencies.

Sincerely signed of the highest authority of the 2nd Roman Empire

Sir Totovader the 3rd duke of bullspit


Might as well just get a portable spotlight and a sandwich board that says "I'm nutz"

[Hokulele]

I never knew that silence could be a distress signal. Hmm, I better go check on my husband, he has been rather quiet for the last 15 minutes.

[Revolutionary91]

------====== Wow ======------

I REALLY hate it when "PEOPLE" abuse the formatting system in an effort to appease their own narcissistic tendencies.

Sincerely signed of the highest authority of the 2nd Roman Empire

Sir Totovader the 3rd duke of bullspit


Might as well just get a portable spotlight and a sandwich board that says "I'm nutz"

http://lolcats2.com/full/link.jpg

[Gravy]

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/879045e1a286cea6c.jpg

[Rahne Everson]

I welcome your comments and criticism.

I'm sorry Dr. Thermite, my doctor has expressly forbidden me from reading anything that begins "Hey lawyers."

[Anti-sophist]

----
ANTI HERE

I have some questions:

1) Who is "Max-MIHOP"? Is that you? Are you refering to yourself in the third person when you say "MAX MIHOP says"?
2) Why do you keep writing your name in a gigantic font at the beginning of all your posts?

Yours,
Sir Plato McSocrates
----

[beachnut]

This has to be a joke. Right? This is...

[Totovader]

Revolutionary91 wHo DO YoU woRK FoR? WhO HiREd YoU?

[Max Photon]

--

sorry font-fairies

i'll try to keep it down (just for you)

max

---

[SpitfireIX]

. . . I welcome your comments and criticism. . . .


RggODNMoiEE

[AZCat]

I must say that I expected to read the "word of god" in a much larger font. Perhaps you are only a minor deity?

[Rahne Everson]

I--

sorry font-fairies

i'll try to keep it down (just for you)

max

---

I'm lolling so hard right now

[Anti-sophist]

Having read some of your "paper" and some of the other stuff on your website including both of your FAQs and your explanation of how Euler's equation is somehow connected to the "cloaked demolition" of the WTC... all I can really say is that there is no question in mind that we are dealing with actual mental illness at this point, beyond anything I've probably ever run into outside of USENET.

Please don't take this the wrong way or as an insult but I think you need actual professional help far greater then any of us are capable of providing.

[~enigma~]

In my paper I point out that this name is probably temporary, and that I was using it until better comes along.

If you have a better name, I am more than receptive.

Thanks for your input.

Max

---The lightbulb has burned out. The word you are looking for is what can happen when a stoichiometric mixture of thermite is mixed with plain old water - phreatomagmatic explosion. Only thing is that while I see it as quite possible to have a stoichiometric mixture of thermite spontaneously created you still have the sticky problem that it will only cut downward as gravity is quite necessary. The ignition is really not much of a problem since an ordinary match can ignite a stoichiometric mixture of thermite (and the fixins [hey, I'm from Texas and we get paid to use that word] were most certainly there). The MAJOR problem with a phreatomagmatic explosion is where did the water come from? In the end it all comes down to Occam's Razor. Is a normal, gravity driven collapse due to fire and damage from the plane a simpler explanation with less assumptions or is your CD fantasy? Please turn your light bulb back on or I will refer to you as Max Headroom...

[pomeroo]

Max Photon here.

[QUOTE]
Pseudo-gangs are making noise.

They only spontaneously emerge when there is something good.

Thanks guys. I take it as a compliment.


Yours Truly (as only Light can be)

Sir Maxwell Photon





Wow, you're dumb!

[Alareth]

Having read some of your "paper" and some of the other stuff on your website including both of your FAQs and your explanation of how Euler's equation is somehow connected to the "cloaked demolition" of the WTC... all I can really say is that there is no question in mind that we are dealing with actual mental illness at this point, beyond anything I've probably ever run into outside of USENET.

Please don't take this the wrong way or as an insult but I think you need actual professional help far greater then any of us are capable of providing.


Would that be Christophera level mental illness? Or Ace mental illness?

[steve s]

This has to be a joke. Right? This is...

It's nothing new. I think it was ChristopherA who was pushing this exact same idea about a year ago.

Steve S.

[westprog]

---
MAX-MIHOP Says: The Aluminum Components of Flights 11 and 175 Were Used as Aluminum Powder for Phreato-Thermatic Explosions (http://maxphoton.com/2007/06/11/maxmihop-says-flight-175s-aluminum-skin-became-the-aluminum-powder-in-a-phreatothermatic-explosion.aspx)


I welcome your comments and criticism.


Regards,

Maxwell C. Photon
Department of Lighting

---

Just remember, merely read the report, and keep in mind that NIST conveniently left out that all the phenomena - ...the broken windows, ... etc., etc., etc. - were from thermite, and the non-electric detonators and shock-tube used to ignite the thermite

This has been very helpful for me. One of the biggest problems with the government version of 911 has always been - why didn't the planes bounce off the windows? At last a realistic assessment.

[Par]

IT IS THE GLORIOUS PAR WHO IS THE ONE WHO WILL NOW BE SPEAKING

PAY HEED FOOLS, FOR BRILLIANCE OF ASTONISHING MAGNITUDE IS SURE TO FOLLOW.

SOMETHING ABOUT NATURE’S HARMONIOUS 4-DAY ALUMINUM POWDER CUBE.



Seriously though, I couldn’t tell whether or not it was a parody. If it is, it’ pretty good.

[Par]

I REALLY hate it when "PEOPLE" abuse the formatting system in an effort to appease their own narcissistic tendencies.



What is it with narcissists speaking about themselves in the third person, anyway?

[Devil's Advocate]

Seriously though, I couldn’t tell whether or not it was a parody. If it is, it’ pretty good.

Reading it, I felt as if it were an attempt by an annoying salesman to sell me a POS used car.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

What is it with narcissists speaking about themselves in the third person, anyway?
Quite. Mr. Wolfshade does not appreciate such behavior.

[jaydeehess]

Just remember, merely read the report, and keep in mind that NIST conveniently left out that all the phenomena - ...the broken windows, ... etc., etc., etc. - were from thermite, and the non-electric detonators and shock-tube used to ignite the thermite

NIST also conveniently left out that invisible leprechauns planted the themite and their non-electric detonators and shock-tube ignitors the evening of 9/10 while singing (in a pitch not audible by humans) "Hi-Ho Hi-HO, it off to work we go".

[Unfit4Command]

Unfit4Command has no idea what's going on in this thread.

[Myriad]

...Phreato-Thermatic Explosions...


This clearly points the finger at that politically incorrect former advertising icon, the Phreato Bandito.

Which sheds a whole new light on the conspiracy. How many vending machines and desk drawers in the towers would have contained delicious Phreato's Corn Chips brand snacks? No snack survey was conducted in the few years prior to 9/11, but there must have been a significant amount, surely.

The Bandito, by definition an armed, dangerous, and violent individual, is on public record as saying:

Ay, yi, yi, yi.
I am the Phreato Bandito
I love Phreato's Corn Chips, I love them, I do,
I want Phreato's Corn Chips, I'll get them from you.
(emphasis added)


And how many corn chips were found in the wreckage? NIST and the 911 Commission mention absolutely none at all.

Myriad (all 10,000 of us) say the conclusions are obvious.

Respectfully,
Myriad

[Apollo20]

Max Photon:

So we have aluminum from the aircraft. How much would that be? About 50 tonnes?

Now you are suggesting, as I have also suggested, that there is the potential for highly exothermic reactions between this aluminum and rust - a mixture of ferric oxide, Fe2O3, and ferric hydroxide, Fe(OH)3 - as described by the equations :

2Al + Fe2O3 = Al2O3 + 2Fe ;
2Al + 2Fe(OH)3 = Al2O3 + 2Fe + 3H2O

The "Delta H" of each of these reactions is about 800 kJ/mole, a lot of heat indeed!

But there is a problem with your scenario! And that is where do you get massive amounts of rust and how would you mix it with the massive amounts of available aluminum?

From the equations we can see that you will need about 150 grams of rust for every 50 grams of aluminum.

So I can accept there was some thermite sparking when aluminum fragments impacted rusty steel columns, but that is all.

[~enigma~]

Max Photon:

So we have aluminum from the aircraft. How much would that be? About 50 tonnes?

Now you are suggesting, as I have also suggested, that there is the potential for highly exothermic reactions between this aluminum and rust - a mixture of ferric oxide, Fe2O3, and ferric hydroxide, Fe(OH)3 - as described by the equations :

2Al + Fe2O3 = Al2O3 + 2Fe ;
2Al + 2Fe(OH)3 = Al2O3 + 2Fe + 3H2O

The "Delta H" of each of these reactions is about 800 kJ/mole, a lot of heat indeed!

But there is a problem with your scenario! And that is where do you get massive amounts of rust and how would you mix it with the massive amounts of available aluminum?

From the equations we can see that you will need about 150 grams of rust for every 50 grams of aluminum.

So I can accept there was some thermite sparking when aluminum fragments impacted rusty steel columns, but that is all.Grinding any ferrous metal in the presence of Aluminum can and does cause thermite reactions. It is something metalworkers are cautioned against. So I actually can see the possibility of spontaneously generated thermite, not alot but definitely only cutting along with gravity (if it did cut anything). To cause the explosion dimboy is talking about requires water and i really would like to know where that came from.

[Belz...]

---

Max Photon here.

Pseudo-gangs are making noise.

They only spontaneously emerge when there is something good.

Thanks guys. I take it as a compliment.

I'm sure you also think that people only ignore you when there is something good, and that they agree with you only when there is something good, making your own opinions unassailable.

Good luck with the rest of your life.

[Dave Rogers]

But there is a problem with your scenario! And that is where do you get massive amounts of rust and how would you mix it with the massive amounts of available aluminum?

Did you look at his website?

WTC2's impact floors were loaded with water and iron-oxide - possibly in salt-water iron-electrolysis tanks (rust-generators). (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vazNo1Eq8pM) (Or, the iron-oxide was in Flight 175, but Max suspects the former, for a number of reasons.)

Apparently the water was also part of the plan, because more energy was created by dissociating the water into hydrogen and oxygen and then exploding the hydrogen. A neat trick to generate energy, if you can pull it off.

The weakness of the descriptor is that a thermite reaction in the presence of water not only drives a steam explosion, but also actually breaks apart the water molecules into hydrogen and oxygen, which in turn ignite and add further explosive energy - and produce water as a product!

Personally, I don't think this level of misunderstanding merits a serious answer (whatever discussions I may have had with TS1234 notwithstanding).

Dave

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Max Photon,

You are making these guys cry:

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_10708461548620fab0.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=4976)

Your output is way ahead of theirs. :cool:

[rwguinn]

Max Photon:

So we have aluminum from the aircraft. How much would that be? About 50 tonnes?

Now you are suggesting, as I have also suggested, that there is the potential for highly exothermic reactions between this aluminum and rust - a mixture of ferric oxide, Fe2O3, and ferric hydroxide, Fe(OH)3 - as described by the equations :

2Al + Fe2O3 = Al2O3 + 2Fe ;
2Al + 2Fe(OH)3 = Al2O3 + 2Fe + 3H2O

The "Delta H" of each of these reactions is about 800 kJ/mole, a lot of heat indeed!

But there is a problem with your scenario! And that is where do you get massive amounts of rust and how would you mix it with the massive amounts of available aluminum?

From the equations we can see that you will need about 150 grams of rust for every 50 grams of aluminum.

So I can accept there was some thermite sparking when aluminum fragments impacted rusty steel columns, but that is all.

It was manufactured in the processing plant set up to create frito-thermaticexplosions, obviously. I mean, the phrase the "aluminum of flights 11 &175 Was used to.." is pretty specific, in a pasive sort of way.
Obviously some NWO alien-tec super high-speed processor grabbed the aircraft, ground them up, combined them with manufactured Fe2O3 and
Fe(OH)3 and spit out some sort of 'tater chip explosion as fast or faster than an actual collision could occur.
Thus we get, not sparking, but really good explosions...
Lighten up, doc--this type of individual cannot be taught. Ideas could not penetrate the skulls of such if you drilled and blasted...

[Alareth]

All my favorite nutcases talk in third person.

[rwguinn]

All my favorite nutcases talk in third person.
We are NOT amused.
We are hysterical!:D :dl:

[Apollo20]

Dave Rogers/RWGUINN:

Of course I have read MP's site! And I know he wants a big "rust generator" up there in the towers...(or on the planes!).... I just want him to confront the implausibility of his own scenario!

[JonnyFive]

Has anyone taken a peek at his "about Max Photon" web page?

http://maxphoton.com/2007/05/09/an-introduction-to-max-photon.aspx

Either this is some kind of joke-troll thing, or this guy has some serious, ChristopherA-level issues.

[Rahne Everson]

I just want him to confront the implausibility of his own scenario!

Good luck Doc.

[rwguinn]

Dave Rogers/RWGUINN:

Of course I have read MP's site! And I know he wants a big "rust generator" up there in the towers...(or on the planes!).... I just want him to confront the implausibility of his own scenario!

If you indeed read his site, I hereby bow in adoration of your intellectual insulation powers. I could not get past the first few lines without overheating. All that concentrated silliness, and the size of the ego...

[Apollo20]

rwguinn:

Actually I find "Mad Max" quite funny sometimes....

My favorite is "Byzantine" in reference to Prof. Bazant's work.

I guess I am also one of his "sissies", and should be annoyed at such claims, but I have grown a thick skin over the years and find it helps me deal with most insults and put downs. My doctor is amazed that my blood pressure always reads "normal"....

I am sure Max can be shown that his theories don't hold up under scrutiny.

[Max Photon]

---

Apollo20,

Thanks for your response.


You say that the jet's AL = 50 tones would require 150 tons of iron-oxide.

I'm curious what volume that would be. (I'll look. If you know, please post it.)


Just a few note (to addess some questions others have had):

1.) Rust could have been in both the towers, and the jets. (Rust generators are not the only viable solution.)

2.) Please note that the iron produced from the jets' phreato-thermatic explosions was not meant to cut anything.

The pools of molten iron on the floors would collect at low points.

The pools would heat the trusses through the concrete, causing the floors to sag.

The more the floors sag, the more iron pools in the depression, the more heating takes place.

The increasing concentration of pooled iron in localized spots was the dynamic loading mechanism that engineers created to load the floors in the impact areas, to pull perimeter panels inward.

Again, these pools of molten iron were not meant to cut anything.

Thermite was used for many purposes in the controlled-demolitions of the WTC towers, but thermite was NOT used to cut or melt steel. (Any melting of steel was incidental.)

3.) Note that the above improvise-thermite is distinct from the planted-thermite that was place beforehand in box columns, at spandrel splices, and at other connectors, to heat-weaken the steel, to cause it to appear to fail in a variety of modes that looked natural and spontaneous (vs catalyzed).

4.) Question: What is the current best hypothesis for the source of the WTC2/NE/81 corner fire, especially the Column 301 metal fire?

Regards,

Max

---

[Belz...]

Crazy makes my head hurt.

[JC Fla]

Max, up the voltage, the shock treatments are not working....

[Rahne Everson]

Just food for thought Max, heat and jet fuel cause metal to oxidize too.

Just food for thought.

[calebprime]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v295/Jaye77/2192640ey8.jpg

my doggy has muscles.



Has anyone taken a peek at his "about Max Photon" web page?

http://maxphoton.com/2007/05/09/an-introduction-to-max-photon.aspx

Either this is some kind of joke-troll thing, or this guy has some serious, ChristopherA-level issues.


Written by: Max Photon

Written on: May 09, 2007.

Last major revision: May 13, 2007

Last minor revision: June 3, 2007

----------------


We, Calebprime, most Highest Psychiatric Expert and Dung Beetle, are alarmed expecially by One Thing:

He revised it. Twice.

We Think His Retro-Encabulator is Suffering from Choreopsis.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/10066923@N00/663602584/in/pool-yellow-red/

[Darth Rotor]

2.) Please note that the iron produced from the jets' phreato-thermatic explosions was not meant to cut anything.

The pools of molten iron on the floors would collect at low points.


Not before your head explodes.

DR

[Yaters]

---

Apollo20,

Thanks for your response.


You say that the jet's AL = 50 tones would require 150 tons of iron-oxide.

I'm curious what volume that would be. (I'll look. If you know, please post it.)


Just a few note (to addess some questions others have had):

1.) Rust could have been in both the towers, and the jets. (Rust generators are not the only viable solution.)

2.) Please note that the iron produced from the jets' phreato-thermatic explosions was not meant to cut anything.

The pools of molten iron on the floors would collect at low points.

The pools would heat the trusses through the concrete, causing the floors to sag.

The more the floors sag, the more iron pools in the depression, the more heating takes place.

The increasing concentration of pooled iron in localized spots was the dynamic loading mechanism that engineers created to load the floors in the impact areas, to pull perimeter panels inward.

Again, these pools of molten iron were not meant to cut anything.

Thermite was used for many purposes in the controlled-demolitions of the WTC towers, but thermite was NOT used to cut or melt steel. (Any melting of steel was incidental.)

3.) Note that the above improvise-thermite is distinct from the planted-thermite that was place beforehand in box columns, at spandrel splices, and at other connectors, to heat-weaken the steel, to cause it to appear to fail in a variety of modes that looked natural and spontaneous (vs catalyzed).

4.) Question: What is the current best hypothesis for the source of the WTC2/NE/81 corner fire, especially the Column 301 metal fire?

Regards,

Max

---

Here's my thought:

You should start refining your act for stand-up, but make it more grandiose and larger than life. So far, you have a good start.

Let's be honest, you're having fun with the whole 9/11 conspiracy idea, and playing an over-the-top character.

If not, then someone already mentioned getting help, and I'd go ahead and ask for shock treatment.

Referring to yourself in the third person with an important sounding voice always cracks me up. Anyone else?

[Apollo20]

Yes, it is I APOLLO20, who has solved the MYSTERY OF THE SPHERES!

Genuflect before your MASTER and pay homage to his BRILLIANCE...

[e^n]

Seriously I knew this would come up sooner or later, a completely untestable theory which posits a completely natural looking collapse only with that little bit moretm

[EvilBiker]

---

<sanity snip>

1.) Rust could have been in both the towers, and the jets. (Rust generators are not the only viable solution.)

<sanity snip>




Rust generators not the only viable solution?? I take it by this you mean that you are considering the possibility of industrial strength rust generators actually being present in the buildings......?

(I must at this point admit that I'm not even sure of the existence of generators catering specifically to the task of creating rust, so I'll let that point skip until I ignite the result generator, Gogol).

I'm at a loss for words.

[Max Photon]

---

Evil,

I hear your pain, and I'm here for you.

How to Make Iron-Oxide (Rust) (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4779219003221806445&q=HOW+TO+MAKE+IRON+OXIDE&total=8&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0)

I hope it's not too technical.

Max

---

[pomeroo]

[quote=Apollo20;2759274]Yes, it is I APOLLO20, who has solved the MYSTERY OF THE SPHERES!

Genuflect before your MASTER and pay homage to his BRILLIANCE...[/



Not bad, Frank. Just to nitpick, those us suffering from lisps (and that would include most twoofers) have problems with the word "spheres." Nobody pontificating about something way over his head wants to sound like Elmer Fudd. Would it be too much of a stretch to refer to the spherules as little orbs? That way, you could be Master of the Orbs. Now, doesn't that have a nice ring? There are people who have blown their college educations playing Dungeons & Dragons without ever rising to the level of Master of the Orbs.

Predictably, the fantasy movement will screw this up and start referring to you as Master of the ORCS, but that's a different thread.

[negativ]

I invite everyone to listen to this delightful tidbit:

Gangster Computer God Worldwide Secret Containment Policy! (http://www.bentoandstarchky.com/dec/audio/Gangster%20Computer%20God%20Worldwide%20Secret%20C ontainment%20Policy.mp3)

Background, explanation (as far as is possible), and more at http://www.bentoandstarchky.com/dec/

[pomeroo]

[quote=Max Photon;2759518]---

Evil,

I hear your pain, and I'm here for you.

How to Make Iron-Oxide (Rust) (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4779219003221806445&q=HOW+TO+MAKE+IRON+OXIDE&total=8&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0)

I hope it's not too technical.

Max



Funny, it was exactly as technical as I expected it to be.

[rwguinn]

Yes, it is I APOLLO20, who has solved the MYSTERY OF THE SPHERES!

Genuflect before your MASTER and pay homage to his BRILLIANCE...is there a symphony in there somewhere, too?
Apollo--fire--chariots--carries a lyre...the sun is a sphere...it all makes too much sense now...
Your briefing is beginning to break down. You need a vacation from twoofer baiting...report to your NWO handler...




:D I knew there had to be a sense of humor lurking in there somewhere!

[WildCat]

http://home.mindspring.com/~turniton/COTC/phreato.jpg

I love this guy! :D

[Blackwell]

Would that be Christophera level mental illness? Or Ace mental illness?

More like the Time Cube guy, but with better social skills.

[Apollo20]

Pomeroo:

ORCHA INDEED!

I want you to know that I am not a whale.

Your President is NOT a whale....

[Reality Believer]

Since this is turning into a MP pwn fest, may I offer this clip for consideration :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PDKcX0Ji90

[pomeroo]

[quote=Apollo20;2759838]Pomeroo:

ORCHA INDEED!

I want you to know that I am not a whale.

Your President is NOT a whale...



Ah, but if you're not a whale and Bush isn't a whale, THEN WHO DID BLOW THOSE TOWERS TO KINGDOM COME?

Thought you could fool us, didn't you?

[pomeroo]

I just thought of a perfect slogan/fabulous marketing idea for the fantasy movement. Picture a mass turnout of twoofers--dozens of them--all wearing T-shirts that read: "Hey, Smart Guy--So You Thought Refuting Ignorant Morons Would Be Easy, Huh?"

[Apollo20]

But seriously Pomeroo, you and I know all this talk is just a shadow play...

The Truth is .... whatever it is ....

And each of us must seek it out whatever way we can!

[T.A.M.]

"Representation of the world, like the world itself, is the work of men; they describe it from their own point of view, which they confuse with the absolute truth"

-Simone de Beauvoir

TAM:)

[Jedi_Master]

Howdy folks...

Do these phreato termites taste good with bean dip ?

[Unsecured Coins]

Howdy folks...

Do these phreato termites taste good with bean dip ?


I prefer them with a thick hearty salsa myself, but to each his own

[fitzgibbon]

Since this is turning into a MP pwn fest, may I offer this clip for consideration :)



Nicely chosen! Most apropos for the occasion, sir!

[kookbreaker]

"Rust Generator" will now replace "High Energy Scientist" as the new JREF nonexistant science meme.

:cool:

[Reality Believer]

Nicely chosen! Most apropos for the occasion, sir!

Danke schoen. It can't be any funnier because it has already been used in a Federal Judge's disposition of a case!

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0306061billy1.html

We can only hope that the Chewbacca Defense achieves an equivalent legal distinction.

[ktesibios]

"Rust Generator" will now replace "High Energy Scientist" as the new JREF nonexistant science meme.

:cool:

You want a rust generator?

Here's the finest rust generator ever made:

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/3784695c578cf5af.jpg

:p

[EvilBiker]

You want a rust generator?

Here's the finest rust generator ever made:

:p

Do I detect a note of bitterness? Surely not! ;) (I actually owned one of those a good while back. Didn't have the original engine in it, though, I dropped an old Porsche 911 mill into it - I had a lot of fun at traffic lights in those days :D )

Still, you'd need herds of Karmann Ghias scooting around the WTC buildings to generate the supposed amount needed for Mr. Bright Spark's phreako-thermatic explosions.

[SOMERLED]

Having read some of your "paper" and some of the other stuff on your website including both of your FAQs and your explanation of how Euler's equation is somehow connected to the "cloaked demolition" of the WTC... all I can really say is that there is no question in mind that we are dealing with actual mental illness at this point, beyond anything I've probably ever run into outside of USENET.

Please don't take this the wrong way or as an insult but I think you need actual professional help far greater then any of us are capable of providing.
You said the same thing to me, is this the only line you've got.

[Par]

You said the same thing to me, is this the only line you've got.



There’s Kirkman conflating repetition and falsity like a total boob. Thinking about it, it’d be good to get all the maddies in the one thread.

[Regnad Kcin]

Yes, it is I APOLLO20, who has solved the MYSTERY OF THE SPHERES!

Genuflect before your MASTER and pay homage to his BRILLIANCE...Sorry, kneeling before Zod at the moment. I'll get to you soon as I can.

[JimBenArm]

Sorry, kneeling before Zod at the moment. I'll get to you soon as I can.
Belz... isn't going to like this!

[A W Smith]

my doggy has muscles.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v295/Jaye77/2192640ey8.jpg

Hey member when i hit your dog with my car?

[Foolmewunz]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v295/Jaye77/2192640ey8.jpg

Hey member when i hit your dog with my car?


http://forums.randi.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=7632&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1184278274


Foolmewunz notes that the link does not work.

:spjimlad:

[rwguinn]

Foolmewunz notes that the link does not work.

:spjimlad:
rwguinn admits that for this time, foolmewunz is 100% correct.

[Foolmewunz]

rwguinn admits that for this time, foolmewunz is 100% correct.

Response invalid: Insufficient font changes.

[rwguinn]

Response invalid: Insufficient font changes.
My ApOlO g--eez!

[njslim]

I knew it was going to be trouble when allowed patients at local mental
institution internet access

[A W Smith]

This was a thread about Rust (http://www.weebls-stuff.com/toons/salad+fingers/)wasn't it?

[Max Photon]

Max Photon:

So we have aluminum from the aircraft. How much would that be? About 50 tonnes?

Now you are suggesting, as I have also suggested, that there is the potential for highly exothermic reactions between this aluminum and rust - a mixture of ferric oxide, Fe2O3, and ferric hydroxide, Fe(OH)3 - as described by the equations :

2Al + Fe2O3 = Al2O3 + 2Fe ;
2Al + 2Fe(OH)3 = Al2O3 + 2Fe + 3H2O

The "Delta H" of each of these reactions is about 800 kJ/mole, a lot of heat indeed!

But there is a problem with your scenario! And that is where do you get massive amounts of rust and how would you mix it with the massive amounts of available aluminum?

From the equations we can see that you will need about 150 grams of rust for every 50 grams of aluminum.

So I can accept there was some thermite sparking when aluminum fragments impacted rusty steel columns, but that is all.


Apollo20,

So you kindly gave the estimates:

- 50 tons of AL (from the aircraft), requires...

- 150 tons Fe2O3 (stored in the impact floors, and/or in the jet)


I was wondering what volumes these amounts would equal.

Since:

2Al + Fe2O3 = Al2O3 + 2Fe

2 moles Al = 54 g
1 mole Fe2O3 = 160 g

density Al = 2.64 g/cc
density Fe2O3 = 5.24 g/cc

then:

- 50 tons AL from the jet = 17 cubic meters AL (at full density)
which is a cube with sides = 2.6 meters (8.5 feet)

- 150 tons Fe2O3 = 26 cubic meters Fe2O3 (at full density)
which is a cube with sides = 3 meters (10 feet)

Note that these are "full density figures."

Adjustments for less-than-full-density can easily be made from these figures.


Now Apollo20, I have two questions:

1.) Is a 10-foot-cube of iron-oxide simply an overwhelming amount in your mind?

Is that really the deal-breaker for my phreato-thermatic explosion hypothesis?

It doesn't seem like much to me.


2.) I am a bit surprised at your overall response to my hypothesis.

I would think that you would be interested that someone else is confirming some of your earlier hunches, ideas, predictions, what have you.

Is my confirming some of your past work not a good thing in your mind? Am I missing something?


Regardless, I appreciate your input, and would enjoy - and benefit from - a lot more.

Regards,

Max

---

[~enigma~]

Is that really the deal-breaker for my phreato-thermatic explosion hypothesis?

No the "deal breaker" is that there is no such thing as phreato-thermatic explosion and it would be called phreatomagmatic. Not to mention that it is totally and utterly stupid to even suggest such a theory but for a short second I will entertain this lunacy and ask, how did this spontaneously created thermite (that part is very possible) not only ignite (very possible if the mixture was stoichiometric, which leads to more questions) cut in any direction other than down (along with gravity)?

[peteweaver]

why bother trying to create thermite when its far easier to simply use the plane to damage the structure, and set its contents on fire?

Air temperatures in office fires can get VERY hot indeed, what with all the burning furniture, paper, & plastics... If office fires did not pose a significant threat to skyscrapers, engineers wouldn't bother with details like fireproofing...

[Foolmewunz]

Apollo20,

So you kindly gave the estimates:

- 50 tons of AL (from the aircraft), requires...

- 150 tons Fe2O3 (stored in the impact floors, and/or in the jet)


I was wondering what volumes these amounts would equal.

Since:

2Al + Fe2O3 = Al2O3 + 2Fe

2 moles Al = 54 g
1 mole Fe2O3 = 160 g

density Al = 2.64 g/cc
density Fe2O3 = 5.24 g/cc

then:

- 50 tons AL from the jet = 17 cubic meters AL (at full density)
which is a cube with sides = 2.6 meters (8.5 feet)

- 150 tons Fe2O3 = 26 cubic meters Fe2O3 (at full density)
which is a cube with sides = 3 meters (10 feet)

Note that these are "full density figures."

Adjustments for less-than-full-density can easily be made from these figures.


Now Apollo20, I have two questions:

1.) Is a 10-foot-cube of iron-oxide simply an overwhelming amount in your mind?

Is that really the deal-breaker for my phreato-thermatic explosion hypothesis?

It doesn't seem like much to me.


<snip>

Max

---

Well, no... but here's your deal breaker, anti-science man....



Foolmewunz is a shipping guy. Max Protean is not.

What would be the greatest cargo capacity of anything made by Boeing? (That would be the modified 747-400F - That's F for "freighter". That's 747 for "whoa, dude, whole helluva lot bigger than a 757 or 767!")

Wanna guess the weight capacity? Then wanna tell me how much cargo a 757 and/or 767 can hold? Then, after that, tell me the number of 757F or 767F there were in service in 2001?

I'm betting on no response or complete obfuscation! If this is any indication of what you're doing with the real math and science, I'm sure e^n and Dr. Frank and a few others are splitting their sides laughing at you.

:spjimlad: :spjimlad: :spjimlad:

[Apollo20]

Max Photon:

Actually I was happy to see the question of natural thermite reactions re-surfacing. My problem, which I think is shared by others on this thread, is that your theory requires massive amounts of iron oxide to complement the amounts of aluminum. Where would you put the iron oxide? And why bother when it would be a "hit and miss" kind of approach to bringing down the towers?

[Tirdun]

So, now that I've had enough time (and scotch) to read Max's rambling, self-serving screed, let me take this opportunity to translate it into near-normal English. And in some semblance of chronological order.

Max is arguing (roundaboutly) that:

1- The "impact floors" of WTC2 were, at some point, loaded with salt water. And designed to fail/fall.
2- The "impact floors" of WTC2 may have been loaded with Iron Oxide.
3- Flight X175 (Max insists on calling it Flight 175, although that flight was piloted and full of people while his was remote controlled and had weapons) came along and fired 2 projectiles. The first was a kinetic energy penetrator / sabots into WTC2. This releases the water. Not sure why this is necessary since the aircraft is on its way, but that's what it does.
4- Flight X175 then hits WTC2, instantly turning from an aluminium-alloy aircraft into aluminium powder.
5- The second projectile (fired after impact?) ignites the "thermite", which is made up of rust (already there or brought in on the plane) the new aluminum powder and all that salt water.
6- Lots of water reactions occur. Hydrogen explodes, oxygen burns, more water is created.
7- There's a lot of further death and destruction, along with "thermite-residue microspheres" which (of course) are identical to bits of aircraft fuselage. This caused lots of other damage around the site.

Away from WTC2:
- The WTC1 impact followed the same process.
- Al-Qaeda doesn't exist.
- Neither does Guantanamo Prison or the US Dollar.
- The first WTC bombing was a test run.
- The planes hitting the WTC buildings without all this pre-staged chemical reaction would have been "boring".
- WTC7, 7/7, the Madrid train attacks were also something coverup yadda false flag something government.

Other notes:
- Max expects to get a cut from the windfall lawsuits when the "sharks" sue.
- Max has lots of aliases
- Max likes really long URLs with lots of hypens

And I'm spent.

[e^n]

I'm sure e^n and Dr. Frank and a few others are splitting their sides laughing at you.
Why thank you, as a matter of fact I am!

[Crazy Chainsaw]

I have to agree with Apollo 20 on this one, and my sides hurt now from laughing, reactions with aluminum are likely, but most likely in the fires and in the collapse and the rubble pile, smaller reactions did occur in the impacts and there is evidence of Oxidized Aluminum, the white flashes when the planes nose hit the buildings.
The towers did have fresh water tanks on the mechanical floors for drinking and rest rooms because pumps could not handle the vertical load without help from water storage facilities in the buildings.
I must also point out that Iron oxide is not actually necessary as aluminum will oxidize in air or to CO2-CO1.
However the reactions on that site are so ludicrous that I can not stop laughing. Hydrogen and other reactions probably did occur it is just a matter of figuring out how favorable the environment was to create and sustain the reactions.
You have even left out some of the most reactive elements in the whole buildings, LOL the sulfur and the Chlorides.
If the environment does not exist to create the reactions then the reactions do not take place, and the environment did not exist for the reactions your proposing.

[Crazy Chainsaw]

I have to agree with Apollo 20 on this one, and my sides hurt now from laughing, reactions with aluminum are likely, but most likely in the fires and in the collapse and the rubble pile, smaller reactions did occur in the impacts and there is evidence of Oxidized Aluminum, the white flashes when the planes nose hit the buildings.
The towers did have fresh water tanks on the mechanical floors for drinking and rest rooms because pumps could not handle the vertical load without help from water storage facilities in the buildings.
I must also point out that Iron oxide is not actually necessary as aluminum will oxidize in air or to CO2-CO1.
However the reactions on that site are so ludicrous that I can not stop laughing. Hydrogen and other reactions probably did occur it is just a matter of figuring out how favorable the environment was to create and sustain the reactions.
You have even left out some of the most reactive elements in the whole buildings, LOL the sulfur and the Chlorides.
If the environment does not exist to create the reactions then the reactions do not take place, and the environment did not exist for the reactions your proposing.

[tsig]

We are NOT amused.
We are hysterical!:D :dl:

tsig wonders

and the world awaits.

[Belz...]

Max Photon:

Actually I was happy to see the question of natural thermite reactions re-surfacing. My problem, which I think is shared by others on this thread, is that your theory requires massive amounts of iron oxide to complement the amounts of aluminum. Where would you put the iron oxide? And why bother when it would be a "hit and miss" kind of approach to bringing down the towers?

See, Doctor, this is why reality-entrenched people can't see this koncpiracy.

The answer to your last question is: because that's how they do it in Bond movies.

Not that we don't like Bond movies.

[Max Photon]

---

Turdun,

I only have a second, but I want to thank you for your efforts. Your replay or feedback of what you read was excellent. I appreciate it. There are obviously a few things I need to clarify for you and others (later), but nevertheless, the majority of your synopsis was excellent. Thanks again.

Let me just make one point.

Remember, the phreato-thermatic explosions are basically three-valued functions (or have three main purposes).


1.) The first purpose was to create more spectacular explosions (especially for Flight 175, which was more photographed)

Please make sure you watch this video on themite and ice explosions (ie. phreato-thermatic or phreato-magmatic explosions).

Thermite and Ice Explosion [phreato-thermatic explosion]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MvvxndPDTk


2.) The second purpose of the phreato-thermatic explosions was to get rid of evidence. The jets were nearly instantaneously converted into aluminum-oxide dust.


3.) The third purpose of the phreato-thermatic explosions was to deposit molten iron on the impact floors. This molten iron would create a dynamic floor-weight-loading system.

Basically, molten iron would flow to low spots. This process would self-amplify as the floors sagged from the weight and the heat, and more molten iron would collect there.

This dynamic weighting system provided the extra load that pulled perimeter panels inward.

It also provided the "sagging floors" for NIST's pre-engineered narrative.

(Please read the paper at the beginning of this thread for more details.)

---------

Some seem confused that the molten iron from the phreato-thermatic explosions was used for cutting.

You are lost.

I am not say this molten iron was used for cutting.

(Nor do I say that thermite placed in box columns (by hand) was used for cutting or melting. It was used for heat-weakening.)

---------

I will follow up soon.

Regards,

Max

P.S. Since there is a lot of whining about my use of "Flight 175" - even though it had remote-guidance and fired projectiles - what is the cool, in way to describe the second jet? (I want to be cool, like you guys.)

---

[JimBenArm]

If you want to be cool like me, you have to start using your brain for more than a hat rack. It serves a quite useful function at filtering out garbage from the world of CT, but only if you actually engage it at some point.

[Viper Daimao]

I'm just wondering why this elaborate game of "Mouse Trap" is more likely than the explanation that everyone observed and 1000s of scientists and engineers investigated and agreed with?

[SpitfireIX]

I'm just wondering why this elaborate game of "Mouse Trap" is more likely than the explanation that everyone observed and 1000s of scientists and engineers investigated and agreed with?


Because they're all in on the conspiracy. :rolleyes:

[Tirdun]

---Turdun,
Yeah, I get your theory to enough of a degree to dismiss it. Your thermite videos are irrelevant and your theory is ludicrous on a scale I've not seen in trootherdom since Judy Wood.

You are attempting to shore up the existing thermite argument, and you're doing so in typical troother fashion: by making it more complicated (and less likely).

The first step is to figure out how they loaded all those tanks filled with salt water and Rust into the WTC. It was an active building with people on every floor. Plus you'll need a crew that will keep silent about it, or that's dumb enough to not know they're secretly installing giant water tanks. You either have to move back to the actual construction of the building (a la Christophera) or explain how the equipment was installed and loaded into the "target floors"

Then you have to dispose of Flight 175 and her flight crew and passengers. That flight existed. It took off and never landed.

Then you have to rig a plane to fly into a building via remote control, load it with your "projectiles" and have someone carry out this flight plan. Someone who will willingly do this and shut up about it. Plus you have to make sure that this wonderous plane doesn't have externally mounted missiles (they could be video taped) AND that this never before tested system works on the first try.

Next you have to hope that everything stays in place and that your remote control flight doesn't get spotted by nosy radar operators, enounters interference on its control freqs AND hits the exact right spot on your building at full speed.

Then you have to hope that your ridiculous chemistry experiment works. I'll defer this to any chemists, but I don't think that pulverized airplane automatically becomes aluminum powder, and I somehow doubt a soggy mass of rust and aluminum will ignite just because you shoot it with some incendiary device on a missile.

Then you have to make sure that thousands of engineers, insurance people and experts in every conceivable field won't watch the video or examine the debris and figure out what you've just done. You have to make sure all your participants (tricked or willing) stay silent about the event and that nobody takes home a picture of a 767 rigged with remote controls and some kind of missile launching system. Plus you've now got 2 or 3 or 4 privately owned aircraft full of American citizens that need to disappear forever.

Please make sure you watch this video on themite and ice explosions (ie. phreato-thermatic or phreato-magmatic explosions).
Seen it. And better. And its irrelevant.

2.) The second purpose of the phreato-thermatic explosions was to get rid of evidence. The jets were nearly instantaneously converted into aluminum-oxide dust.
How? By hitting a building? The would have been shredded and burned, not turned into the type of finely ground powder I believe you'd need for a true thermite reaction.

3.) The third purpose of the phreato-thermatic explosions was to deposit molten iron on the impact floors. This molten iron would create a dynamic floor-weight-loading system.
What happens after your theoretical impact is irrelevant unless you can demonstrate that it happened. There is no reason to believe any of this.

P.S. Since there is a lot of whining about my use of "Flight 175" - even though it had remote-guidance and fired projectiles - what is the cool, in way to describe the second jet? (I want to be cool, like you guys.)

Flight 175 refers to United Airlines flight 175, a commercial Boeing 767-222 which carried 60 innocent people, all of whom are now dead. I object to your use of this name for two reasons.

1- Sixty innocent real, living, actual human beings died while on Flight 175. In contrast, your fantasy plane had zero passengers, because real passengers don't ride on nonexistent aircraft.
2- The actual flight 175 was not remote controlled, nor did it have any missiles on it.

And so in response I don't really care in the slightest what you choose call your mystical aircraft. It is not Flight 175, so call it something else.

[Max Photon]

---

Turdin,

Thanks (again) for all your input.

I really appreciate that you put in the time and effort to put forth serious objections in a form that I can address.

Many of the issues you raise might actually have remarkably simple solutions or explanations. Please keep an open mind.


As for naming the jet that hit WTC2, I will try to think of a label that accomodates, yet does not confuse.

But since you don't care (actually, that part is confusing), I'll just stick with Flight 175 until I find a better substitute, (partly because that is how all the internet videos are labeled.)


Regards,

Max

---

[Foolmewunz]

Now we're getting to the important philosophical issues.

How can you be cool like me? This is going to be tough. I'm the epitome of cool, after all.

Well, start with the snappy hat. It really does wonders for the image.

After you get the wardrobe adjusted, try getting out of the basement. Go down to Starbucks. Have a mocha-frappa-something and sit around reading Ferlinghetti. That really wows the chicks, I can tell you. (Well it worked in the 70s, at least - you've got some catching up to do if you're really shooting for "cool like me".)

Let's see... Then, after you get a little faux culture to go with your faux math, faux philosophy, and faux science, travel a bit. Meet some real people. Start with easy stuff like, say, Milwaukee. Then work your way up to tougher locales like Boston and New Orleans. I'd stay out of New York until I'd mastered a few of the social graces, though. That's a tough audience, and with your worldview we're liable to find you sleeping in a refrigerator carton under a bridge if you try to bite off more cool than you can handle too early.

Oh, and I'd kill that website. Definitely "non-cool"! You can't be cool and have abject proof of your idiocy available for all to see.

Try the above steps for starters. Get back to me in a couple of months.

Helpfully yours,

Foolmewunz

[Viper Daimao]

Many of the issues you raise might actually have remarkably simple solutions or explanations.

So simple in fact that no one can come up with of any of them.

[Max Photon]

Max Photon:

Actually I was happy to see the question of natural thermite reactions re-surfacing. My problem, which I think is shared by others on this thread, is that your theory requires massive amounts of iron oxide to complement the amounts of aluminum. Where would you put the iron oxide? And why bother when it would be a "hit and miss" kind of approach to bringing down the towers?


Apollo20,

Well you should be happy - confirmation is an important concept in science.

As for my "theory" - the proper word is "hypothesis"

(I am actually really shocked how confused everyone is around the concept of a hypothesis versus a theory, and what it means to prove something, versus having a collection of anomalies, and a collection of working hypotheses to explain them. Anyway, not very impressive.)

As for the massive amounts, you kindly provided 150 tons of iron-oxide, or a cube with 10 foot sides.

You have not answered my question as to whether that is in insurmountable amount, in your mind.

Where would I put the iron oxide? You mean where did they put the iron-oxide?

As I said, I believe they used tanks with water and iron electrodes (so they didn't actually have to bring in 150 tons of iron - the oxygen from the water - taken from the building's system - provided some of the mass in the iron-oxide.

The location of the tanks may have been the "computer room" that Stanley Praimnath (the Fuji employee) describes on the 81st floor.

There is also a lot of physical evidence for a large heavy obstacle on the 81st floor:

- The Cold Spot

- The shape of the exit explosion. NIST itself says there is an obstacle, says it's probably sagging floors, but then says it doesn't want to speculate beyond that.

- The debris that collected on both sides of the Cold Spot (that was done on purpose, to place debris right under column splice fires.)

- Evidence of weight is seen in the perimeter panels pulling inward.

- NIST ridiculously extrapolated the UL fire test's sag to 42" on the floor trusses. This is more (indirect) evidence of weighted floors. (NIST is engineering plausible deniability.)


As to your question: Why bother with all this?

The phreato-thermatic explosions are actually quite simple, and served many important, varied, and dynamic functions.

Not only did they bother, they put trememdous effort into working out an exquisitely simple plan, that is way over everyone's head.


So Apollo20, do you have any more objections? Or are any of these answers insufficient? (Please answer the question about the 10' cube of rust.)

I am here and game.

Regards,

Max

---

[Foolmewunz]

This just gets worser and worser!

Water tanks in the computer room. Not from any diagrams, blueprints, or floor plans, but from a comment from a totally unrelated article. FYI, I worked in WTC 1, on the 77th floor. We had a computer room. We kept computers in it. Floor space was expensive. We kept our water in the galley and in the bathrooms, generally.

Exquisitely simple plan? You're on some kind of medication, right? This is Ace Baker cubed! We've now got a fake airliner firing some sort of projectile at precision points to ignite godonlyknowswhat.

Over our heads?

Child, you have no idea who some of these guys are. The "anonymous posters" here have posted their credentials in many places, and as the Blast Master of Google, I'm sure you can find them. (Dr. Greening's and R.Mackey's are well known from disastrous attempts by Troofers to unmask them.)

Asking any of them to take this as a serious exercise is akin to asking Hawkings to prove his props by a challenge match of Blue's Clues.

[pomeroo]

[quote=Max Photon;2766473]Apollo20,

Well you should be happy - confirmation is an important concept in science.

As for my "theory" - the proper word is "hypothesis"

(I am actually really shocked how confused everyone is around the concept of a hypothesis versus a theory, and what it means to prove something, versus having a collection of anomalies, and a collection of working hypotheses to explain them. Anyway, not very impressive.)

As for the massive amounts, you kindly provided 150 tons of iron-oxide, or a cube with 10 foot sides.

You have not answered my question as to whether that is in insurmountable amount, in your mind.

Where would I put the iron oxide? You mean where did they put the iron-oxide?

As I said, I believe they used tanks with water and iron electrodes (so they didn't actually have to bring in 150 tons of iron - the oxygen from the water - taken from the building's system - provided some of the mass in the iron-oxide.

The location of the tanks may have been the "computer room" that Stanley Praimnath (the Fuji employee) describes on the 81st floor.

There is also a lot of physical evidence for a large heavy obstacle on the 81st floor:

- The Cold Spot

- The shape of the exit explosion. NIST itself says there is an obstacle, says it's probably sagging floors, but then says it doesn't want to speculate beyond that.

- The debris that collected on both sides of the Cold Spot (that was done on purpose, to place debris right under column splice fires.)

- Evidence of weight is seen in the perimeter panels pulling inward.

- NIST ridiculously extrapolated the UL fire test's sag to 42" on the floor trusses. This is more (indirect) evidence of weighted floors. (NIST is engineering plausible deniability.)


As to your question: Why bother with all this?

The phreato-thermatic explosions are actually quite simple, and served many important, varied, and dynamic functions.

Not only did they bother, they put trememdous effort into working out an exquisitely simple plan, that is way over everyone's head.


So Apollo20, do you have any more objections? Or are any of these answers insufficient? (Please answer the question about the 10' cube of rust.)

I am here and game.

Regards,

Max




Why would you drag Stanley Praimnath into your fantasies? He's a real person who saw a real plane crash into a real building. That doesn't concern you.
.

[A W Smith]

Only the very old computers used water wheels for power. :D


also I have a 6000 pound cube or iron oxide next to my house. I use an Easy Pass (http://www.ezpassnj.com/)to force it through New Jerseys aluminum toll booths.

[stilicho]

Astonishing.

Violation of the "rule of three" more times than can be counted. Remember, Mr Photon, no more than three font types, sizes, styles or colours per page. Otherwise people might get the idea you are just trying to make them dizzy.

Apart from that, I found most interesting your bold prediction that Chertoff's "gut feeling" meant a nuclear terrorist (or "terrorist") attack in your country.

When will this fake attack occur? Where? Will it happen before your president leaves office?

Please provide details and documentation.

[Tirdun]

As for my "theory" - the proper word is "hypothesis"
No. If you want to debate technical terms you've provided us with neither a theory nor a hypothesis.

Your story is not a "hypothesis" because it is not simple, testable, repeatable or falsifiable. It is not a "theory" because it does not predict anything and is not based on experimentation.

What you have, in fact, given us is a hodgepodge of observations, a litany of weak hypothesis, propositions, claimed correlations and unsupported conclusions. OR what you have is a conclusion unsupported by any sort of investigation. In layman's terms this duality is referred to as a Conspiracy Theory (using the nonscientific form of the word "theory"). So posters on this thread will call it a "theory" in short. I'll use the whole phrase so you can keep up.

(I am actually really shocked how confused everyone is around the concept of a hypothesis versus a theory, and what it means to prove something, versus having a collection of anomalies, and a collection of working hypotheses to explain them. Anyway, not very impressive.)
Ah, smug superiority. +5 points to your crackpot index.

Your Conspiracy Theory is impressive only in how unlikely it is. No one here has applied the scientific method to your rant because there's no point. You've yet to provide one single observable fact in your fantastic argument, all while claiming superiority over the posters here. You are only interesting because you have adopted the typical stylings of internet crackpots and your Conspiracy Theory is at least a new coat of paint on a tired old yarn.
As for the massive amounts, you kindly provided 150 tons of iron-oxide, or a cube with 10 foot sides.
So a 10' cube of iron oxide is your theory now? Any idea how you get 150 tons into the building? Is a 10' cube of rust in the middle of a huge floor space really going to provide you the chemical reaction you're hoping for?
Where would I put the iron oxide? You mean where did they put the iron-oxide?
Uh, no. They don't exist yet since you haven't given us any reason to believe there was any iron oxide in the first place. Your CT, your iron oxide. Unless and until you show there was any, this is all just hypothetical.
- Evidence of weight is seen in the perimeter panels pulling inward.
Evidence of weight? How about the floors? They're pretty heavy.
- NIST ridiculously extrapolated the UL fire test's sag to 42" on the floor trusses. This is more (indirect) evidence of weighted floors. (NIST is engineering plausible deniability.)
And your engineering expertise comes from? Why is this "ridiculous"? What civil engineer do you have working out all this complicated math?
Not only did they bother, they put trememdous effort into working out an exquisitely simple plan, that is way over everyone's head.
Simple yet over everyone's head. Right.

So, since you started by questioning our understanding of the scientific principle, let me break it down for you. Your conspiracy theory is laughable, riddled with holes and supported by nothing but your own imagination. If you want to carry on a discussion, you must present some sort of basic hypothesis:

H1- The aircraft that hit WTC2 was not UA Flight 175.

See? We're not up to the missiles or the tons of iron oxide or anything else. Show us that it was NOT F175 and then you can add on. Alternately:

H2a- When an aircraft crashes, it turns into aluminum powder.
OR
H2b- A thermite reaction can take place using shredded aluminum alloy as used by major aircraft manufacturers.

Get a chemist. Get a chemistry book. Buy some iron oxide and take an axe to a soda can. At least carry out some sort of investigation that doesn't involve making stuff up to fit your conclusion

Once you've assembled your evidence, as taken from actual research and experimentation using your newly formed set of hypothesis, THEN you can make that never-seen step from Conspiracy Theory to Actual Scientific Theory. Until that time you will appear to everyone who is not a troother to be a paranoid crackpot, claiming that the NWO is trying to trick everyone with their bombings and fake money.

[Max Photon]

---

Devil's Advocate made a fine point (while defending himself from muddled thinking).

-----------

Do not assume, just because you have not thought of a possibility to an event in question, that the answer to the question is then impossible by default.

-----------

Some of you Mr. Magoos on this thread would do well to read DA's quote a mole of time.


God bless you Devil. God bless you.

Max

---

[Max Photon]

---

Hi Apollo20,

I have a question (putting aside the phreato-thermatic explosion topic for a second).

If, IF I am right that thermite was placed in perimeter-panel box columns and spandrel splices - not to cut - but to heat-weaken the steel, would that fact have material implications for the most recent paper by Bazant, Le, Greening and Benson?

Would the calculations change?

Would the outcomes change?

Would the conclusion change?


I'm curious on your take.


Regards,

Max

---

[Tirdun]

Do not assume, just because you have not thought of a possibility to an event in question, that the answer to the question is then impossible by default.

Do not assume that just because you've come up with a possibility that the possibility is fact.

[Max Photon]

---

Exactly Tirdun.

That is why most on this site would do well to recognize that just because they have in their minds the possibility of the US Government's 19-Hijacker Conspiracy Theory, does not make that possibility fact.

That is why it is good to have MAX-MIHOP as your second possibility.

Then you have two hypotheses to choose from - two hypotheses to compare against the evidence, so that you may select the one with better fit.

Then you won't be such fixed-thinkers, closed to the universe, lost in little angry bubbles.

Regards,

Max

---

[Regnad Kcin]

That is why most on this site would do well to recognize that just because they have in their minds the possibility of the US Government's 19-Hijacker Conspiracy Theory, does not make that possibility fact.

That is why it is good to have MAX-MIHOP as your second possibility.But there's a third you're forgetting:

A tiger did it.

[Max Photon]

---

No problemo.

With a list of anomalies, checking the fit of new hypotheses is a trivial, even fun task.

Welcome aboard tiger!

Max

---

[Tirdun]

That is why most on this site would do well to recognize that just because they have in their minds the possibility of the US Government's 19-Hijacker Conspiracy Theory, does not make that possibility fact.
No, it doesn't.

However, add to the Government's conclusion the overwhelming support of the largest professional engineering groups in the world, university research and investigative groups and you have more than just the Government's say so. This isn't their theory against yours, this is their conclusion based on massive evidence, intense research and the results of numerous engineering investigations versus your unfounded conspiracy theory.
Then you have two hypotheses to choose from - two hypotheses to compare against the evidence, so that you may select the one with better fit.
You don't have a hypothesis. You have a conspiracy theory. A conspiracy theory based on other, worthless conspiracy theories. A conspiracy theory in which goes against logic, evidence and reason. It is ridiculously complex, rife with failed reasoning and does not match in the slightest the event in question.

The Government's conclusion is based on the combined conclusions of NIST, ASCE, FEMA, other engineering and fire groups, professionals and professional organizations and universities. To suggest that there is collusion within the entire engineering, science and university system in support of some Government plan to destroy the WTC is pure paranoia and unsupported by the tiniest shred of evidence.

You've invented a remote controlled, sabot and incendiary missile firing aircraft shaped like a 767, created by the government. That same government has preloaded a skyscraper with chemicals in the hopes of setting of a chemical reaction.
Then you won't be such fixed-thinkers, closed to the universe, lost in little angry bubbles.
Little angry bubbles? Speaking for myself I'm not angry, I get tired of seeing the same paranoia and bad science dragged out of its tomb over and over again. Thermite is a zombie theory, it has no life it can only feed on the will and life of other living theories, pulling at the fringes until it is noticed and mercifully put down.

You still aren't arguing with evidence. Support your conspiracy fantasy with something that doesn't involve ridiculous claims about low resolution CNN screen captures.

[Max Photon]

---

Let me be perfectly clear.

I am not telling you what to think. I am telling you what I think.

What you think has nothing to do with me.


I am only interested in working with those who have the prerequisites to understand what I am saying, an understanding of the scientific process, an open mind, and a willingness to change their position if the evidence warrants it. (DA seems to be that type of fellow.)

We don't need to agree. In fact, I love slugging it out. But it is easy to spot someone who is trying to work with you, rather than against you. I am only interested in the former.


If you were completely familiar with NCSTAR1-5A/1-8 and NCSTAR 1-5A/9/C, if you were completely familiar with the FEMA high-resolution photos, if you were familiar with Joint Publication 3-13.4: Military Deception, and so on, then the things that I am saying would trigger something in your mind.

You would at least go, "Wow, that's out there, but I can at least see where it explains a number of anomalies."


If you do not have those prerequisites, then you are lost, and I am sure what I am saying sounds meaningless - in fact, crazy.

But your being lost does not make me crazy.

If you do not have the prerequisites, nor the intention to work with rather than against, then I suggest you simply skip my posts.

Nothing could be easier.


Max

---

[pomeroo]

---

Let me be perfectly clear.

I am not telling you what to think. I am telling you what I think.

What you think has nothing to do with me.


I am only interested in working with those who have the prerequisites to understand what I am saying, an understanding of the scientific process, an open mind, and a willingness to change their position if the evidence warrants it. (DA seems to be that type of fellow.)

We don't need to agree. In fact, I love slugging it out. But it is easy to spot someone who is trying to work with you, rather than against you. I am only interested in the former.


If you were completely familiar with NCSTAR1-5A/1-8 and NCSTAR 1-5A/9/C, if you were completely familiar with the FEMA high-resolution photos, if you were familiar with Joint Publication 3-13.4: Military Deception, and so on, then the things that I am saying would trigger something in your mind.

You would at least go, "Wow, that's out there, but I can at least see where it explains a number of anomalies."


If you do not have those prerequisites, then you are lost, and I am sure what I am saying sounds meaningless - in fact, crazy.

But your being lost does not make me crazy.

If you do not have the prerequisites, nor the intention to work with rather than against, then I suggest you simply skip my posts.

Nothing could be easier.


Max

---



You are peddling baseless claims, unsupported by any evidence. There is nothing to indicate that you have actually read and comprehended the sources you repeatedly cite.

Show us one of the "anomalies" you've been ranting about.

[stilicho]

---

If you do not have those prerequisites, then you are lost, and I am sure what I am saying sounds meaningless - in fact, crazy.

But your being lost does not make me crazy.

If you do not have the prerequisites, nor the intention to work with rather than against, then I suggest you simply skip my posts.

Nothing could be easier.


Max

---
I don't think you're crazy. I think you know precisely what you're doing.

For those of us here (including myself) without engineering credentials, all I would ask of you, Max, is that you provide the endorsement of your professional association. That shouldn't be difficult if you're right about any of this "heat-weakening-thermate-in-spandrels" stuff.

I've read quite a bit of your site, and I found it dizzying in many ways. Neaten it up a bit and get your professional association to endorse its claims and conclusions. Or at least post your correspondence with them.

There's a guy just like you at physorg trying to perform exactly the same gyrations and protestations as you are here. He has never even identified his professional association although we had discovered that he builds and designs boats for a living.

Just do me a favour and tell me what professional association you belong to. That might help point the way.

[Tirdun]

Let me be perfectly clear. I am not telling you what to think. I am telling you what I think. What you think has nothing to do with me.
So you've come onto a skeptical web forum to rant. You aren't interested in debate or discussion, you're simply proselytizing.
I am only interested in working with those who have the prerequisites to understand what I am saying, an understanding of the scientific process, an open mind, and a willingness to change their position if the evidence warrants it. (DA seems to be that type of fellow.)
Devil's Advocate has yet to do anything but handwave and assume contrary positions. Living up to his avatar name does not give him any credibility. Playing Devil's Advocate is a good way to look at a position from a new angle, but it has limited usefulness as a standard operating procedure. Further, you've yet to look at your position from any position except "The government is evil and omnipotent" and "This will make me money". You've also shown zero scientific understanding aside from memorizing a single basic chemical equation and attempting to scale it to skyscraper proportions.
We don't need to agree. In fact, I love slugging it out. But it is easy to spot someone who is trying to work with you, rather than against you. I am only interested in the former.
Again, your understanding of the scientific process is shown to be a facade. Disagreement and challenge are fundemental to the advancement of scientific knowledge. If your "theory" cannot stand up against challenge than it is worthless. If you refuse to see and accept that, then you are a zealot.
If you were completely familiar with NCSTAR1-5A/1-8 and NCSTAR 1-5A/9/C, if you were completely familiar with the FEMA high-resolution photos, if you were familiar with Joint Publication 3-13.4: Military Deception, and so on, then the things that I am saying would trigger something in your mind.
You've yet to provide any evidence that any of these things are valid.
You would at least go, "Wow, that's out there, but I can at least see where it explains a number of anomalies."
I've yet to see an anomaly.
I've yet to see any explanation of an anomaly.
I've yet to see anything from you but vague claims of some vast government conspiracy involving multiple tragic terrorist acts.
If you do not have those prerequisites, then you are lost, and I am sure what I am saying sounds meaningless - in fact, crazy.
I have those prerequisites and what you are saying sounds crazy.
But your being lost does not make me crazy.
Oh, I'm not lost. I understand that you've taken the basic chemical equation FE2O3+2Al = Al203+2Fe and attempted to build it into the impact of UA175. You've added layer upon layer of complexity to dodge the obvious, overwhelming problems with this event and then searched out pictures that you believe support your conclusion. You've done no experimentation, no real research and have nothing but your own claims to support your conclusion. Then you've wrapped all this up into a bid to get lawyers to sue the Government so you can profit.
If you do not have the prerequisites, nor the intention to work with rather than against, then I suggest you simply skip my posts.
And what "prerequisites" do you have? Civil engineering degree? Chemistry degree? I think that the American Society for Civil Engineers has an abundance of prerequisites, and they don't support your conclusion.
Nothing could be easier.
Ah but tearing your posts apart is so easy. You provide nothing, you demand everything and you expect us to all exclaim with wonder that you've cracked the NWO/Illuminati/Evil Government plot and revealed it to the masses.

[MIKILLINI]

Actually Max, I'm not a scientist by any standards, but I can understand what you are getting at. If you ask Apollo about ammonium perchlorate, he can tell you a plausible scenario of using this perchlorate to spray on the insulation, and, Maxwell Smartguy, you should be able to figure out the rest from there. But thats just it, if you can figure out why Apollo has used the perchlorate theory, you will have the chemical analysis to rule out your theory.

ETA; Crazy Chainsaw does his own unconventional experiments, and in this manner, he's a brilliant thinker outside the box with impressive results. He can confirm the holes in your theory.

[Max Photon]

---

Thanks, I will ask for or find Apollo20's work.

I appreciate your input.

Max

---

ETA:

To be clear, Apollo20 did invite me to debate/discuss the relative merits of AP vs thermite a little while back.

Apollo, are you still game? I am very interested. (I'm not married to any ideas.)

(Also, to be clear, others kindly mentioned AP also.)

---

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Oh my gawd... my retinas...

Plain text is your friend. :p

[leftysergeant]

Okay, being probably the only person here who has helped pick up the pieces after an aircraft accident, and the only one to have made and demonstrated the use of and methods for detection of various types of thermite, let me state, for openers, that Max Photon's papers contain the greatest concentration of manure I have seen in one place on the net since I read Killtown's commentary on the "fake" picture from Shanksville.

There is no way that aluminum powder would have been generated when an aircraft passed through all those columns.

Chunks, shards, great whirling, insulation-stripping frisbees of alluminum and a cloud of well aerosolized jet fuel, but no powder.

And a DU penetrator and a tank of rust-generating liquid large enough to account for the scale of the damage would probably weigh more than what the engines of the aircraft could have gotten off the ground with rocket-assist packs strapped to the side.

In brief:"OH BOLLOCKS."

[Max Photon]

---

Greetings 19-Hijacker Conspiracy Hypothesists!


Just a quick progress report on the phreato-thermatic explosion concept:

1.) Perhaps there is no need for kinetic projectiles. The jets' landing gear and engine cores could have served as improvised kinetic projectiles;

2.) Perhaps there is no need for a DU penetrator to serve as a match. Naturally-occurring thermite sparks (from the jets' aluminum colliding with the towers' steel elements) could have ignited the improvised thermite;

(Thanks Apollo20.)

3.) The phreato-thermatic explosions served multiple functions:


Create spectacular explosions to serve as media input signals;
Get rid of the jets by turning them into clouds of aluminum-oxide dust;
Load the impact floors with molten iron, which would serve as dynamic floor-loading mechanisms.


I now want to add to this list that the phreato-thermatic explosions provided the extra energy required to dislodge fire protection material in the impact area, to fit NIST's pre-engineered narrative.

Note that dislodged fire protection material is central to NIST's hypothesis.

Not enough dislodged fire protection material, and the floors don't sag.

If the floors don't sag, then nothing is there to pull perimeter-panel columns inward.

If perimeter-panel columns are not pulled inward, then the towers are left standing.


Hope that makes you think. (Nothing else has.)


Your ever-shining friend,

Max Photon

---

[Par]

That could have been summed up in one word: "Bump".

[twinstead]

Oh, it's made ME think, all right. It's made me think that our education system is in deep trouble.

[OldSchool]

Very unique writing style which under curtain circumstances would receive very an A for creativity. You've made some very valid points and included information which is widely accepted as fact by many professionals, not including the JREF experts. The format you've used is very fitting for this forum as you've focused upon information which was excluded from the NIST report.

E for Effort

A for Accuracy

C for Creativity

[Slayhamlet]

Very unique writing style which under curtain circumstances would receive very an A for creativity. You've made some very valid points and included information which is widely accepted as fact by many professionals, not including the JREF experts. The format you've used is very fitting for this forum as you've focused upon information which was excluded from the NIST report.

E for Effort

A for Accuracy

C for Creativity

Please detail which information Photon boy has included in his cartoonish hypothesis that is "widely accepted as fact by many professionals, not including JREF experts".

[hellaeon]

---

Greetings 19-Hijacker Conspiracy Hypothesists!


Just a quick progress report on the phreato-thermatic explosion concept:

1.) Perhaps there is no need for kinetic projectiles. The jets' landing gear and engine cores could have served as improvised kinetic projectiles;

2.) Perhaps there is no need for a DU penetrator to serve as a match. Naturally-occurring thermite sparks (from the jets' aluminum colliding with the towers' steel elements) could have ignited the improvised thermite;

(Thanks Apollo20.)

3.) The phreato-thermatic explosions served multiple functions:


Create spectacular explosions to serve as media input signals;
Get rid of the jets by turning them into clouds of aluminum-oxide dust;
Load the impact floors with molten iron, which would serve as dynamic floor-loading mechanisms.


I now want to add to this list that the phreato-thermatic explosions provided the extra energy required to dislodge fire protection material in the impact area, to fit NIST's pre-engineered narrative.

Note that dislodged fire protection material is central to NIST's hypothesis.

Not enough dislodged fire protection material, and the floors don't sag.

If the floors don't sag, then nothing is there to pull perimeter-panel columns inward.

If perimeter-panel columns are not pulled inward, then the towers are left standing.


Hope that makes you think. (Nothing else has.)


Your ever-shining friend,

Max Photon

---


Max, I still fail to understand your points because of the way you use your words.

This is not a criticism, rather a request to provide a better explanation of your thoughts.

Cheers

[dirtywick]

Heh, this thread is the funniest thing I've read in a while!

Yeah, I'd drop the whole DU thing. That stuff turns into a detectable radioactive gas when exposed to fire or explosions. The fact that there was nothing like that detected at any point...I don't know. I don't want to tell you how to do your job. Just sayin'.

The second thing I've got to ask, besides all of the obvious questions about how or why whoever you think is responsible for this is filling entire floors up with salt water and iron oxide, is can the temperature that thermite gives off be suppressed as to not melt the steel?

Finally, why thermite? What's the obsession with that?

[Max Photon]

Heh, this thread is the funniest thing I've read in a while!


If I have brought humor to your life, I am thrilled. :)


Yeah, I'd drop the whole DU thing. That stuff turns into a detectable radioactive gas when exposed to fire or explosions. The fact that there was nothing like that detected at any point...I don't know. I don't want to tell you how to do your job. Just sayin'.


I agree completely. Good of you to say so.


The second thing I've got to ask, besides all of the obvious questions about how or why whoever you think is responsible for this is filling entire floors up with salt water and iron oxide, is can the temperature that thermite gives off be suppressed as to not melt the steel?


Remember, just because a very small reaction region reaches, say, 2500C, does not mean that the reaction region will heat up a section of steel sufficiently to cause melting. Heat transport must be reckoned with.


Finally, why thermite? What's the obsession with that?


Thermite makes all the spooky errors :eye-poppi go away.

(Remember, the information is in the errors.)


To answer your question more specifically, thermite was chosen because it is energy dense, untraceable, low-tech, similar to materials already present, AND VERY VERSATILE.

Thermite had MANY uses on 9/11. Here are a few:

- To create a phreato-thermatic explosion
- To create thermite-dusted shock-tube as an ignition system
- To heat-weaken steel
- To create highly visible fires on piles of debris at the exterior panels
- To create migrating fires
- To create hot spots and cold spots, or differential heating, to induce buckling.
- To create metal flows to feed the emotionally-potent oversimplification "thermite was used to slice through steel like a hot knife through butter"
- To cause floors to sag
- To cause columns to bow inward and fail
- And more.


Cutting, melting or slicing steel were NOT among the uses of thermite on 9/11!

Jones' position that thermite was used to cut WTC steel cloaks the heat-weakening model.


Thanks for your questions.

Max

---

[~enigma~]

- To create a phreato-thermatic explosion


---
Once again I will tell you because apparently you missed it the first time I posted it. There is no such thing as a phreato-thermatic explosion. This is a term you made up in your head. There is something called a phreatomagmatic explosion but there is absolutely no seismic evidence whatsoever for a miniature Mount St. Helens anywhere near GZ on 9/11/2001. Please stop spouting total nonsense.

[Max Photon]

* * *

Here at JREF, no one seems to have trouble with the notion that WTC2 had a UPS system on the 81st floor.

Here is an excellent article on the matter.

http://11-settembre.blogspot.com/2007/02/ups-on-81st-floor-of-wtc2.html


Now - as you look at the photos in the above link - think about this:

What if the "lead" in the batteries were iron?

And what if the "acid" were salt-water?


Would those differences be obvious?


Max


* * *

[Max Photon]

* * *

Here is the link to a recent post of mine that discusses the phreato-thermatic explosions.*

I include the link here as a convenience.

Max Photon tells the story of WTC2
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=2991363#post2991363

Cheers!

Max


* Phreato-thermatic explosion is a registered trademark of Max Photon, which is a registered trademark of God, which is a registered trademark of Mrs. God.

So I suggest you don't - you know - mess with the name.

* * *

[~enigma~]

* * *

Here is the link to a recent post of mine that discusses the phreato-thermatic explosions.*

I include the link here as a convenience.

Max Photon tells the story of WTC2
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=2991363#post2991363

Cheers!

Max


* Phreato-thermatic explosion is a registered trademark of Max Photon, which is a registered trademark of God, which is a registered trademark of Mrs. God.

So I suggest you don't - you know - mess with the name.

* * *
Took you long enough to admit that you pulled the phrase (OMG...it was a CD) out of thin air. Now can you teach us how the thermite's burning temperature was reduced enough to weaken steel and not melt everything it was in contact with?

[Fnord]

Phreato-Thermatic?

What does spring water have to do with heat? Are you saying that the Twin Towers and the Pentagon were sitting on the same hot spring?

I'd give the entire article an F if it were an assigned report, but since it was voluntarily offered, all that I can say is that the finishing touch should have been made with a lit match.

[pomeroo]

If I have brought humor to your life, I am thrilled. :)





I agree completely. Good of you to say so.





Remember, just because a very small reaction region reaches, say, 2500C, does not mean that the reaction region will heat up a section of steel sufficiently to cause melting. Heat transport must be reckoned with.





Thermite makes all the spooky errors :eye-poppi go away.

(Remember, the information is in the errors.)


To answer your question more specifically, thermite was chosen because it is energy dense, untraceable, low-tech, similar to materials already present, AND VERY VERSATILE.

Thermite had MANY uses on 9/11. Here are a few:

- To create a phreato-thermatic explosion
- To create thermite-dusted shock-tube as an ignition system
- To heat-weaken steel
- To create highly visible fires on piles of debris at the exterior panels
- To create migrating fires
- To create hot spots and cold spots, or differential heating, to induce buckling.
- To create metal flows to feed the emotionally-potent oversimplification "thermite was used to slice through steel like a hot knife through butter"
- To cause floors to sag
- To cause columns to bow inward and fail
- And more.


Cutting, melting or slicing steel were NOT among the uses of thermite on 9/11!

Jones' position that thermite was used to cut WTC steel cloaks the heat-weakening model.


Thanks for your questions.

Max

---



Max, you neglected to mention that no thermite was used at the WTC complex on 9/11/01.

[LTC8K6]

http://home.att.net/~ltc8k9/kerrymouth.jpg

[Myriad]

Here at JREF, no one seems to have trouble with the notion that WTC2 had a UPS system on the 81st floor.

Here is an excellent article on the matter.

http://11-settembre.blogspot.com/2007/02/ups-on-81st-floor-of-wtc2.html

Now - as you look at the photos in the above link - think about this:

What if the "lead" in the batteries were iron?

And what if the "acid" were salt-water?

Would those differences be obvious?


Yes, it would be obvious as soon as the system was tested. The UPS would fail to perform its function of providing uninterruptible power.

Then, whichever large financial coroporation was paying enormous amounts of rent in addition to enormous equipment and maintenance costs to have the benefit of uninterruptible power for its computers would sue the vendors for having supplied them with worthless boxes of wet salty iron. Meanwhile, the equipment would be immediately replaced with a real UPS, or scrapped in order to use the expensive space for something else.

Respectfully,
Myriad

[Sword_Of_Truth]

- To create a phreato-thermatic explosion

I've just witnessed a dorrito-cheesematic explosion.

I will be back to finish this post after the room airs out...

- To create thermite-dusted shock-tube as an ignition system
- To heat-weaken steel
- To create highly visible fires on piles of debris at the exterior panels
- To create migrating fires
- To create hot spots and cold spots, or differential heating, to induce buckling.
- To create metal flows to feed the emotionally-potent oversimplification "thermite was used to slice through steel like a hot knife through butter"
- To cause floors to sag
- To cause columns to bow inward and fail
-to dice tomatoes and carrots
-to create nutritious homemade coleslaw
-to make home canning easier
-to make perfect homemade french fries every time!

- And more.

Now how much would you pay?

Call now to order, operators are standing by!

* Phreato-thermatic explosion is a registered trademark of Max Photon, which is a registered trademark of God, which is a registered trademark of Mrs. God.

So I suggest you don't - you know - mess with the name.

I just did.

Strike me down at your discretion, your highness.

[twinstead]

Crazy people ROCK!

[MIKILLINI]

Crazy people ROCK!

I totally agree.:cool:

[Narveson]

Forgive me, but I just couldn't keep ploughing through all of Max's posts.

Did he finally deliver the punchline?

[Max Photon]

* * *


The phreato-thermatic explosions created molten iron.

This video shows white-hot iron to the west of the Cold Spot, right after impact:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bjWu21ymFJo


Max


* * *

[~enigma~]

* * *


The phreato-thermatic explosions created molten iron.

This video shows white-hot iron to the west of the Cold Spot, right after impact:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bjWu21ymFJo


Max


* * *
Is that supposed to be an answer as to how you propose that the thermite had its temperature lowered so it didn't melt through anything? Maybe you should use the quote function Jay.

[Max Photon]

* * *

Here is a short post of mine discussing the complex nature of the WTC impact explosions:

Max Photon on the complex explosions that occurred when the jets hit the WTC towers.
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=3006543#post3006543


Max

* * *

[~enigma~]

* * *

Here is a short post of mine discussing the complex nature of the WTC impact explosions:

Max Photon on the complex explosions that occurred when the jets hit the WTC towers.
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=3006543#post3006543


Max

* * *
Ok Mr. Howard, am I to expect an answer somtime before 2010 or are you going to run from my question?

[slingblade]

* Phreato-thermatic explosion is a registered trademark of Max Photon, which is a registered trademark of God, which is a registered trademark of Mrs. God.


No, it's not.

One can search U.S. Patent and Trademark Office records, you know.

[bob_kark]

I've read your paper Max and I really have to hand it to you. I've never seen such a manic display of nonsensical terms strewn together to create a manifesto of insanity of such epic proportions before. I must admit, I absolutely adore this part:

By: Maxwell C. Photon

aka. Dr. Thermite
aka. The Brightest Wharton MBA - Ever
aka. Our Favorite Universal Spacetime Metric
aka. The Guy Who's Kicking MILDEC's Ass

The fact that you created such a ridiculous name and had the fortitude to give yourself 4 nicknames of increasingly psychotic caliber speaks volumes to your mastery of the non sequitur.

You've stunned me sir, to the point that I'm unable to fully express my deeply held gratitude for sharing your masterpiece with this humble viewer. I regret that I am only able to submit to you this golf clap smiley animation as a sign of my undying admiration:

:bigclap

[Magenta]

This thread would be vastly improved by some kitten photos. :)

[GreNME]

RggODNMoiEE

http://lolcat.com/pics/threadlovercat.jpg

[Magenta]

Thank you and v. appropriate for a Friday afternoon. :D

[MIKILLINI]

Ok Mr. Howard, am I to expect an answer somtime before 2010 or are you going to run from my question?

Enigma, Max left out his other surname(s); a.k.a. Hit and Run, Dodge and Spin.
He uses FACTs: Frequently Attempted Conspiracy Theories.
You may get an answer with an ad-hom, and the answer he gives is an attempt to divert answering your question. That's the pattern.

[Max Photon]

Enigma, Max left out his other surname(s); a.k.a. Hit and Run, Dodge and Spin.
He uses FACTs: Frequently Attempted Conspiracy Theories.
You may get an answer with an ad-hom, and the answer he gives is an attempt to divert answering your question. That's the pattern.



Mikillini,


Write out your questions.

Number them.


If they are poorly formed, I will ignore them.

If they stupid, I will ignore them.

If I already answered them, I will ignore them.

If they are senseless baiting, I will ignore them.

If you can figure them out for yourself, I will ignore them.

If you have not done the prerequisite reading, or don't understand the structure, I will ignore them.


If they are intelligent, I will answer them to the best of my ability.


Max


* * *

[~enigma~]

Mikillini,


Write out your questions.

Number them.


If they are poorly formed, I will ignore them.

If they stupid, I will ignore them.

If I already answered them, I will ignore them.

If they are senseless baiting, I will ignore them.

If you can figure them out for yourself, I will ignore them.

If you have not done the prerequisite reading, or don't understand the structure, I will ignore them.


If they are intelligent, I will answer them to the best of my ability.


Max


* * *
In other words you'll pick and choose. Not to confident in your balogna are you Jay?

[Reality Believer]

STOP feeding Max's NPD. Please! This thread will never die as long as you people respond to this stuff. Die, thread, die!

[pomeroo]

Mikillini,


Write out your questions.

Number them.


If they are poorly formed, I will ignore them.

If they stupid, I will ignore them.

If I already answered them, I will ignore them.

If they are senseless baiting, I will ignore them.

If you can figure them out for yourself, I will ignore them.

If you have not done the prerequisite reading, or don't understand the structure, I will ignore them.


If they are intelligent, I will answer them to the best of my ability.


Max


* * *



Say, did you mention that no thermite was used at the WTC complex on the day of the jihadist atacks?

[Sword_Of_Truth]

If they stupid, I will ignore them.


That's supposed to read "If they are stupid..."

Irony abounds.

[Max Photon]

That's supposed to read "If they are stupid..."

Irony abounds.


Iron abounds.

I agree.

That is what I keep saying.


While we are waiting for Mikillini to muster some intelligence, may I recommend that if anyone else has any real questions or objections (or God-forbid, an insight) please post them, numbered.

I will address them along with Mikillini's list.


I really am interested to see the best Mikillini can produce.

I guarantee you it's going to be pathetic.


Max


* * *

[slingblade]

Anyone see the Mythbusters epi where they tried to determine the connection between the Hindenburg and thermite?

[technoextreme]

Anyone see the Mythbusters epi where they tried to determine the connection between the Hindenburg and thermite?
Uggg... That's another stupid theory that makes no sense. If you actually read the guy who originated that theory talking points they make no sense whatsoever and you realize it's a propaganda piece for hydrogen fuel.

[Max Photon]

* * *

Mikillini:

I left a note for you:

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=3011675#post3011675


Also, remember that I will be firing questions right back at you.

You had better be prepared.


Max

* * *

[pomeroo]

* * *

Mikillini:

I left a note for you:

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=3011675#post3011675


Also, remember that I will be firing questions right back at you.

You had better be prepared.


Max

* * *



Hey, Max, no demolition experts believe that thermite or thermate had anything to do with the collapses of the Towers. What do you know that they don't?

[Max Photon]

Hey, Max, no demolition experts believe that thermite or thermate had anything to do with the collapses of the Towers. What do you know that they don't?


What I know, Pomeroo, is that you have not read the NIST reports, and hence you are just filler.

And I've had my fill.

Max


* * *

[slingblade]

Uggg... That's another stupid theory that makes no sense. If you actually read the guy who originated that theory talking points they make no sense whatsoever and you realize it's a propaganda piece for hydrogen fuel.

Okay, but did you see the show?

[technoextreme]

Okay, but did you see the show?
Yes.
I am expecting some serious heaviosity from you.
Heaviosity??

[pomeroo]

Pomeroo on the Tedious Inanity of Max Photon

What I know, Pomeroo, is that you have not read the NIST reports, and hence you are just filler.

And I've had my fill.

Max


* * *



Ah, yes, another thing you "know" that's wrong. I'd bet heavily that I've read much more of the NIST reports than you have, but almost everybody here has read more of the NIST reports than you have.

Stop wasting everyone's time with your scientifically-illiterate inanity and tell us what all the demolition experts are missing. Tell us why the Lamont-Doherty seismic data shows no secondary explosions.

Your silly and uninformed fantasies regarding thermite are boring.

[Max Photon]

Pomeroo on the Tedious Inanity of Max Photon

Ah, yes, another thing you "know" that's wrong. I'd bet heavily that I've read much more of the NIST reports than you have, but almost everybody here has read more of the NIST reports than you have.

Stop wasting everyone's time with your scientifically-illiterate inanity and tell us what all the demolition experts are missing. Tell us why the Lamont-Doherty seismic data shows no secondary explosions.

Your silly and uninformed fantasies regarding thermite are boring.


Pomeroo, it doesn't seem like you find them boring.

In fact, it seems that your are fascinated by them - and by me - and that you just can't seem to manage your confusion.

Hence the regressive behavior.


That you even speak of secondary explosions announces - in one little phrase - that you understand absolutely nothing about MAX-MIHOP.

Lamont-Doherty did not pick up any secondary explosions because there were no secondary explosions. (Duh.)

You are shadow-boxing with your not-very-vivid imagination.

* * *

Now to the adult world...


Gentle readers,

Here is a post of mine from another thread that is directly related to the topic of this thread - the WTC phreato-thermatic explosions.

MAX-MIHOP models the improvised phreato-thermatic explosive-incendiary-kinetic device
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=3013177#post3013177

I think this is a very interesting topic. I hope you too find it so.

Cheers!

Max

* * *

[pomeroo]

Pomeroo, it doesn't seem like you find them boring.

In fact, it seems that your are fascinated by them - and by me - and that you just can't seem to manage your confusion.

Hence the regressive behavior.


That you even speak of secondary explosions announces - in one little phrase - that you understand absolutely nothing about MAX-MIHOP.

Lamont-Doherty did not pick up any secondary explosions because there were no secondary explosions. (Duh.)

You are shadow-boxing with your not-very-vivid imagination.

* * *

Now to the adult world...


Gentle readers,

Here is a post of mine from another thread that is directly related to the topic of this thread - the WTC phreato-thermatic explosions.

MAX-MIHOP models the improvised phreato-thermatic explosive-incendiary-kinetic device
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=3013177#post3013177

I think this is a very interesting topic. I hope you too find it so.

Cheers!

Max

* * *



Explosions other than the impacts of the planes are secondary explosions, you egomaniacal dunce.

[Max Photon]

Explosions other than the impacts of the planes are secondary explosions, you egomaniacal dunce.



In the name of the Father, and the Son....


Pomeroo my friend,

The "explosion" that occurred when a jet hit a tower consisted of:


kinetic impact
A1 jet fuel explosion
thermite reaction
steam explosion
hydrogen explosion


They all happened virtually simultaneously.

Seismometers would not differentiate the signals.


Stop being so rho.


(Everyone....Rho, rho, rho your Pomeroo, gently down the stream...)



Max


(I predict more stupidity in three, two, one...)

* * *

[twinstead]

Crazy people ROCK!

[NYCEMT86]

Crazy people ROCK!

I couldn't agree more


:popcorn6

[technoextreme]

Technoextreme sees that there are two topics about the same thing. Technoextreme wonders why they aren't merged.
Stop being so rho.

ρρρρρρρρρρρρρρρρρρρρρρρρρρρρρρρρρρρρρρρρρρρρρρρρρρ ρρρρρρρρρρρρρρρρρρρρρρρρρρρρρρρρρρρρρρρρρρρρρρρρρρ ρρρρρρρρρρρρρρρρρρρρρ

[pomeroo]

Max's witless evasions stink, much like the methane gas emitted by contented cows


In the name of the Father, and the Son....


Pomeroo my friend,

The "explosion" that occurred when a jet hit a tower consisted of:

kinetic impact
A1 jet fuel explosion
thermite reaction
steam explosion
hydrogen explosionThey all happened virtually simultaneously.

Seismometers would not differentiate the signals.


Stop being so rho.


(Everyone....Rho, rho, rho your Pomeroo, gently down the stream...)



Max


(I predict more stupidity in three, two, one...)

* * *



Sorry, dunce, there was no thermite or thermate used at the WTC complex. Secondary explosions are the ones you conspiracy liars pretend were going off before the buildings collapsed. The seismic data show that you are wrong.

I predict more stupidity the second you start typing.

[Max Photon]

* * *

P-o-m-e-r-o-o


* * *

[Max Photon]

Max's witless evasions stink, much like the methane gas emitted by contented cows


Is it Febreezy in here?



Sorry, dunce, there was no thermite or thermate used at the WTC complex. Secondary explosions are the ones you conspiracy liars pretend were going off before the buildings collapsed.


Ahhh, I see the problem.

Pomeroo can't attend to MAX-MIHOP. (It requires - you know - thinking.)

All he can do is lump Sir Maxwell Photon in with all "conspiracy liars."


I think I smell blood.



The seismic data show that you are wrong.



Oh oh.

Now he is taking on a geophysicist on the seismic data

Of course, none of this is based on any of his own thinking.

Pomeroo - and many JREF NISTIANS - are plagued with irrational submission to authority.

No wonder he has such a violent reaction when he sees someone with the audacity to think for himself.


I have news for you, Pomeroo.

At times of great change, nearly everyone is wrong.

(Even your beloved eggspurts.)


Only real thinkers see ahead.


Max

P.S. Please keep asking questions. (Actually, I waiting for your first real one.)

And please let me know which questions - by number - I have not answered to your satisfaction.

If there is one thing Maxwell C. Photon does, it is to go deep into hostile territory, seek out REAL questions and objections, and make short work of them.

So bring it on.

* * *

[Max Photon]

* * *

By the way, has anyone seen Mikillini?


* * *

[Narveson]

<snip>

Now he is taking on a geophysicist on the seismic data

<snip>

* * *

You are a trained geophysicist?

[Max Photon]

You are a trained geophysicist?


Well, I go on engineering papers, if that's what you're asking.


* * *

[Narveson]

Your statement was to the effect that Pomeroo was taking on a geophysicist. That is a specific area of scientific study. You reply that you "go on engineering papers". Does that mean that you are not a geophysicist, only that you read papers by them?

I'm just looking for clarity.

[MIKILLINI]

Mikillini,


Write out your questions.

Number them.


I will ignore them.

I will ignore them.

I will ignore them.

I will ignore them.

I will ignore them.

I will ignore them.




Max


* * *
Fixed it for you, Max
The bolded parts are your remarks;

The thermite was linked and ignited by thermite-dusted shock-tube.

No intermediate mechanism - such as non-electric detonators - was required; thermite-dusted shock-tube lit the planted thermite directly! (Sweet.)

Question 1.) How would it be known where to PLANT the thermite, Max?
2.)Wouldn't it look to obvious if the thermite was planted on floors where the planes did not crash into? Or 3.) Would they plant thermite from floors 75 to 100 so that;

The thermite-dusted shock-tube was ignited remotely by lasers from WTC7?

United Airlines 175 struck the south tower, American Airlines 11 struck the North tower Max. The area of the south tower that UAL 175 struck was not the same area of the north tower AA 11 struck.

Heres your problem Max;2 different airline companies, 2 towers, thermite, shock tubing, computer guidance systems, Laser activated detonators.

Question 4.) How are these airliners "computer-guided"? On-board? or-off board? And it's not just one airline company, it's 2 companies.

Each specific airliner guided to each specific tower to strike in the area where shock tubes are placed.
Answer the questions or just continue on your Frequently Attempted Conspiracy Theory.

[Max Photon]

* * *

Narveson,

I have a BS in Geophysics from UC Berkeley.

I worked at the Byerly Seismographic Station.

I worked at Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory in geophysics.

The project was related to cloaking underground nuclear tests behind naturally-occurring earthquakes.

I am not a practicing geophysicist, but I know a thing or two.

Thanks for asking!

Max


* * *

[~enigma~]

* * *

Narveson,

I have a BS in Geophysics from UC Berkeley.

I worked at the Byerly Seismographic Station.

I worked at Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory in geophysics.

The project was related to cloaking underground nuclear tests behind naturally-occurring earthquakes.

I am not a practicing geophysicist, but I know a thing or two.

Thanks for asking!

Max


* * *
I assume you can verify your credentials Jay. Can you? Until you verify them you are nothing more than a liar.

[pomeroo]

Is it Febreezy in here?






Ahhh, I see the problem.

Pomeroo can't attend to MAX-MIHOP. (It requires - you know - thinking.)

All he can do is lump Sir Maxwell Photon in with all "conspiracy liars."


I think I smell blood.







Oh oh.

Now he is taking on a geophysicist on the seismic data

Of course, none of this is based on any of his own thinking.

Pomeroo - and many JREF NISTIANS - are plagued with irrational submission to authority.

No wonder he has such a violent reaction when he sees someone with the audacity to think for himself.


I have news for you, Pomeroo.

At times of great change, nearly everyone is wrong.

(Even your beloved eggspurts.)


Only real thinkers see ahead.


Max

P.S. Please keep asking questions. (Actually, I waiting for your first real one.)

And please let me know which questions - by number - I have not answered to your satisfaction.

If there is one thing Maxwell C. Photon does, it is to go deep into hostile territory, seek out REAL questions and objections, and make short work of them.

So bring it on.

* * *


Max, you are empty-headed and silly, but you don't display the viciousness of some of your colleagues. I'm reaching out here. Try to understand why the acronym 'MIHOP' angers rationalists. You are falsely claiming that innocent people committed the mass murder of civilians that was actually perpetrated by terrorists acting in the name of radical islam. The slander is so unfair, and the attempt to exonerate the jihadists of all wrongdoing so offensive, that it becomes impossible to find you amusing. You are a goofy guy who knows nothing about science, nothing about controlled demolitions, and, most glaringly, nothing about thermite. You get dressed down regularly and you learn nothing. Ryan Mackey has tried to show you how many tons of thermite would be required to realize your fantasies. You plod on, blinkers firmly in place, proclaiming your nonsense from the rooftops. We'd like to regard you as a harmless crank, but the implications of your zany message are not harmless.

[Max Photon]

Fixed it for you, Max
The bolded parts are your remarks;

The thermite was linked and ignited by thermite-dusted shock-tube.

No intermediate mechanism - such as non-electric detonators - was required; thermite-dusted shock-tube lit the planted thermite directly! (Sweet.)

Question 1.) How would it be known where to PLANT the thermite, Max?
2.)Wouldn't it look to obvious if the thermite was planted on floors where the planes did not crash into? Or 3.) Would they plant thermite from floors 75 to 100 so that;

The thermite-dusted shock-tube was ignited remotely by lasers from WTC7?

United Airlines 175 struck the south tower, American Airlines 11 struck the North tower Max. The area of the south tower that UAL 175 struck was not the same area of the north tower AA 11 struck.

Heres your problem Max;2 different airline companies, 2 towers, thermite, shock tubing, computer guidance systems, Laser activated detonators.

Question 4.) How are these airliners "computer-guided"? On-board? or-off board? And it's not just one airline company, it's 2 companies.

Each specific airliner guided to each specific tower to strike in the area where shock tubes are placed.
Answer the questions or just continue on your Frequently Attempted Conspiracy Theory.


Mikillini,

Answering your questions by number:


1.) How would it be known where to PLANT the thermite?

Judging by this question, you are already lost.

Thermite was planted at a variety of steel connections, to heat weaken the connections.

Planners found exploitable susceptibilities, such as A325 column splice bolts, thin spandrel splice plates, and floor truss chords (by the seats).

HOW did they find these exploitable susceptibilities?

Well, analysis I suppose, but the susceptibilities are perfectly obvious to even a parakeet (if you give it 10 seconds).


2.) Wouldn't it look to [sic] obvious if the thermite was planted on floors where the planes did not crash into?

Well, to be clear, thermite was obvious on floors the jets did crash into.

Thermite planted on non-impact floors would not necessarily be obvious from all vantages.


The thermite was concealed.

Relatively small amounts were used to heat weaken most connections.

Some of the thermite was ignited at or soon after impact, and cloaked by the commotion, the smoke, and the floating paper.

Some of the thermite was ignited right before collapse initiation. (Some of the lower, smaller "squibs" are not explosions, but aluminum oxide ash from some of the thermite at non-impact floors.



3.) Would they plant thermite from floors 75 to 100 so that;

The thermite-dusted shock-tube was ignited remotely by lasers from WTC7?

United Airlines 175 struck the south tower, American Airlines 11 struck the North tower Max. The area of the south tower that UAL 175 struck was not the same area of the north tower AA 11 struck.

Heres your problem Max;2 different airline companies, 2 towers, thermite, shock tubing, computer guidance systems, Laser activated detonators.


I am not being avoidant...I just don't understand this question.

So there are two towers. What's the problem?

There are two jets. What's the problem?

The jets hit in different places. What's the problem?


(Is this just a problem of not enough RAM?)


Please try to be clearer with this one. I will answer it if you give me a chance.


By the way, no laser-activated detonators. I am saying lasers lit the ends of thermite-dusted shock-tube directly.


4.) How are these airliners "computer-guided"? On-board? or-off board? And it's not just one airline company, it's 2 companies.

Each specific airliner guided to each specific tower to strike in the area where shock tubes are placed.


What's the problem? The jets were guided. There is guidance equipment on a jet. Humans had plans to guide it somewhere. So the guidance systems were both on board and off board.


Mikillini, it seems that your lack of imagination, probably grounded in fear-based fixed-thinking, is creating apparent complexity.

Remember, just because you are muddled, does not mean I am too.


Max


P.S. I find your questions verging on incoherent - pretty much as I expected.

Nevertheless, try again.

I try to help all God's creatures, great and very, very, small.


* * *

[Slayhamlet]

Why are we encouraging the mentally-ill person to do anything but get psychological help?

[pomeroo]

* * *

Narveson,

I have a BS in Geophysics from UC Berkeley.

I worked at the Byerly Seismographic Station.

I worked at Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory in geophysics.

The project was related to cloaking underground nuclear tests behind naturally-occurring earthquakes.

I am not a practicing geophysicist, but I know a thing or two.

Thanks for asking!

Max


* * *



It is almost inconceivable that someone whose thinking is so muddled and devoid of reasoning skills has a background in science. Surely higher education in this country hasn't sunk so far. Sorry, Max, I'm not buying.

[Redtail]

* * *

Narveson,

I have a BS in Geophysics from UC Berkeley.

I worked at the Byerly Seismographic Station.

I worked at Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory in geophysics.

The project was related to cloaking underground nuclear tests behind naturally-occurring earthquakes.

I am not a practicing geophysicist, but I know a thing or two.

Thanks for asking!

Max


* * *


I see. So you will take your observations to the media and authorities ( in another country if you are afraid of repercussions here.) and bring justice to the true culprits right?

[pomeroo]

Why are we encouraging the mentally-ill person to do anything but get psychological help?


Does he strike you as mentally ill, as opposed to tripping on some sort of psychedelic drug? I've met aging hippies who talk and act very much like Max.

The imperviousness to reality of his fantasy is, I think, the key. To him, the presence of thermite is "obvious." Trained observers detect no evidence of thermite. And always his response is, What can they know?

[Slayhamlet]

Does he strike you as mentally ill, as opposed to tripping on some sort of psychedelic drug? I've met aging hippies who talk and act very much like Max.

The imperviousness to reality of his fantasy is, I think, the key. To him, the presence of thermite is "obvious." Trained observers detect no evidence of thermite. And always his response is, What can they know?

Well, if it's mind-altering drugs causing the bizarre behavior, and he's been exhibiting the bizarre behavior for the whole period of time that he's been posting here, then I think it's safe to assume he has a substance-abuse problem. So either way he should be directed to help and not encouraged.

[Max Photon]

Max, you are empty-headed and silly, but you don't display the viciousness of some of your colleagues. I'm reaching out here. Try to understand why the acronym 'MIHOP' angers rationalists. You are falsely claiming that innocent people committed the mass murder of civilians that was actually perpetrated by terrorists acting in the name of radical islam. The slander is so unfair, and the attempt to exonerate the jihadists of all wrongdoing so offensive, that it becomes impossible to find you amusing. You are a goofy guy who knows nothing about science, nothing about controlled demolitions, and, most glaringly, nothing about thermite. You get dressed down regularly and you learn nothing. Ryan Mackey has tried to show you how many tons of thermite would be required to realize your fantasies. You plod on, blinkers firmly in place, proclaiming your nonsense from the rooftops. We'd like to regard you as a harmless crank, but the implications of your zany message are not harmless.


Pomeroo,


Thanks for reaching out.

And thanks for being clear about your position.

I know that relative to your perspective, MIHOP - and Max - look pretty evil.

However, understand that I am operating from good faith (even if I am incorrect).

I did research.

I came to some conclusions.

I am open to changing them, but nothing has dissuaded me yet.

When I became a US citizen (I was born in Scotland), I swore to defend the Constitution from all enemies, foreign or domestic.

I believe we are facing domestic enemies.

I am simply doing what I swore to do.

I thus take my models public (at great personal risk).

I don't hide, or only hang out with those who agree with me (not that there are any).

Bear in mind, I have been duking it out with Jones and the thermite=cutting crew, AND you guys, so it's not like I have any place of refuge.

On top of all of this, for better or worse, I try to wrap a little humor around this dreary topic, just because life is short. (Have I never made you smile, even once?)


Can you find nothing worthy in all that?


Look, I have some models.

They are unique.

And they fit many of the anomalies better than the other leading models.


I am sorry if my models are a direct assault on some of your cherished beliefs (I don't mean that as a slight).

But it is pathological science to ignore a hypothesis because one doesn't like the implications.


Also, have you really through what it will mean to you (and to others at JREF) if - IF - MIHOP is correct?

Think of it - you will have been an unwitting accomplice.


I suggest no one summarily dismiss MAX-MIHOP.


Max

P.S. Feel free to ask more questions. I am happy to answer them.


* * *

[Narveson]

"I worked at Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory in geophysics.

The project was related to cloaking underground nuclear tests behind naturally-occurring earthquakes."

Max, was the above referenced project a classified program? Possibly for the DOE?



Sorry, in a hurry so I didn't use the quote function.

I'll continue this tomorrow, need to sleep.

[pomeroo]

Pomeroo,


Thanks for reaching out.

And thanks for being clear about your position.

I know that relative to your perspective, MIHOP - and Max - look pretty evil.

However, understand that I am operating from good faith (even if I am incorrect).

I did research.

I came to some conclusions.

I am open to changing them, but nothing has dissuaded me yet.

When I became a US citizen (I was born in Scotland), I swore to defend the Constitution from all enemies, foreign or domestic.

I believe we are facing domestic enemies.

I am simply doing what I swore to do.

I thus take my models public (at great personal risk).

I don't hide, or only hang out with those who agree with me (not that there are any).

Bear in mind, I have been duking it out with Jones and the thermite=cutting crew, AND you guys, so it's not like I have any place of refuge.

On top of all of this, for better or worse, I try to wrap a little humor around this dreary topic, just because life is short. (Have I never made you smile, even once?)


Can you find nothing worthy in all that?


Look, I have some models.

They are unique.

And they fit many of the anomalies better than the other leading models.


I am sorry if my models are a direct assault on some of your cherished beliefs (I don't mean that as a slight).

But it is pathological science to ignore a hypothesis because one doesn't like the implications.


Also, have you really through what it will mean to you (and to others at JREF) if - IF - MIHOP is correct?

Think of it - you will have been an unwitting accomplice.


I suggest no one summarily dismiss MAX-MIHOP.


Max

P.S. Feel free to ask more questions. I am happy to answer them.


* * *


Thank you, Max, for your thoughtful and courteous response. My problem with your models is that they ignore what knowledgeable people have concluded. Dr. Greening wrote an important paper explaining possible thermite reactions. His area of expertise is chemistry. Ryan Mackey has pointed out the logistical near-impossibility of introducing tons of thermite into the Towers. He is an engineer with a background in physics. Both of these extremely intelligent scientists have engaged you on the problems with your theory. As with Ace Baker, nothing ever penetrates your armor.

I asked you what role the planes played. You haven't got around to telling us. Will you do so now?

Your humorous outlook on life is perversely charming. Of all the fantasists posting here, you are easily the most pleasant. But, I must press the point that you are aiding--even if we acknowledge that your intentions are benign--barbarians, cruel and irrational zealots who want to overthrow the values of the Enlightenment and return us to a dark age of superstition and intolerance.

That can't be your purpose.

[Max Photon]

Thank you, Max, for your thoughtful and courteous response.


My pleasure.


My problem with your models is that they ignore what knowledgeable people have concluded.


That is not correct.


Dr. Greening wrote an important paper explaining possible thermite reactions. His area of expertise is chemistry.


And I borrow from Frank.

I got the idea of the natural thermite sparks as the ignition mechanism for the phreato-thermatic explosions from the grumpy old curmudgeon.

I also agree with Frank et. al. that the towers, once they got moving, had plenty-o-energy.

Furthermore, Frank's AP model, and my thermite=heat-weakening model, have incredible overlap. The models only really vary by the supplementary catalysts.

And if you follow Apollo's posts, he is now at least mentioning the possibility of a "bomb" on the flights, not too far from my improvised phreato-thermatic explosions.


Ryan Mackey has pointed out the logistical near-impossibility of introducing tons of thermite into the Towers.


That means there is a possibility.

That possibility gets larger if one considers the field of possible ways to get thermite into the towers.

There is little reason to believe Ryan thought out the entire field.


He [Ryan Mackey] is an engineer with a background in physics. Both of these extremely intelligent scientists have engaged you on the problems with your theory. As with Ace Baker, nothing ever penetrates your armor.


Actually, Ryan did not engage me so much as dismiss me.

Apollo20 gave input that led to the estimate that a 10 foot cube of iron-oxide would be need to consume all 50 tons of the jet's aluminum. If not all the aluminum burned, then less iron-oxide was needed.

But I would not consider this minor input "engaging me on the problems with my theory." Far from it.


Also, again, it is incorrect to say nothing penetrates my armor.

If you follow my writings, you will see I am actually very flexible.



I asked you what role the planes played. You haven't got around to telling us. Will you do so now?


This part is Orwellian.

I have a complex model with the planes being used as components in improvised phreato-thermatic explosions.

I have a thread on the subject.

We are in that thread now.

Why are you saying I haven't gotten around to telling you the roles of the planes?

If you do not understand the model, please just say so.



Your humorous outlook on life is perversely charming. Of all the fantasists posting here, you are easily the most pleasant. But, I must press the point that you are aiding--even if we acknowledge that your intentions are benign--barbarians, cruel and irrational zealots who want to overthrow the values of the Enlightenment and return us to a dark age of superstition and intolerance.

That can't be your purpose.


It isn't my purpose.

You speak of the Enlightenment and the Dark Ages.

Remember, you are speaking to Max Photon!

I fight for the Light!

And the light is going out on the US Constitution.



Cheers Pomeroo!

Max


* * *

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Your insistence on putting a blank line after each sentence renders your posts extremely difficult to read.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Your insistence on putting a blank line after each sentence renders your posts extremely difficult to read.

On the contrary, I think his posting style makes it quite easy to read.

In a "See Jane run. Run, Jane, run!" sort of way.

People tend to write as though they are addressing themselves. Max's posts are rather revealing that way.

[pomeroo]

My pleasure.





That is not correct.





And I borrow from Frank.

I got the idea of the natural thermite sparks as the ignition mechanism for the phreato-thermatic explosions from the grumpy old curmudgeon.

I also agree with Frank et. al. that the towers, once they got moving, had plenty-o-energy.

Furthermore, Frank's AP model, and my thermite=heat-weakening model, have incredible overlap. The models only really vary by the supplementary catalysts.

And if you follow Apollo's posts, he is now at least mentioning the possibility of a "bomb" on the flights, not too far from my improvised phreato-thermatic explosions.





That means there is a possibility.

That possibility gets larger if one considers the field of possible ways to get thermite into the towers.

There is little reason to believe Ryan thought out the entire field.





Actually, Ryan did not engage me so much as dismiss me.

Apollo20 gave input that led to the estimate that a 10 foot cube of iron-oxide would be need to consume all 50 tons of the jet's aluminum. If not all the aluminum burned, then less iron-oxide was needed.

But I would not consider this minor input "engaging me on the problems with my theory." Far from it.


Also, again, it is incorrect to say nothing penetrates my armor.

If you follow my writings, you will see I am actually very flexible.






This part is Orwellian.

I have a complex model with the planes being used as components in improvised phreato-thermatic explosions.

I have a thread on the subject.

We are in that thread now.

Why are you saying I haven't gotten around to telling you the roles of the planes?

If you do not understand the model, please just say so.






It isn't my purpose.

You speak of the Enlightenment and the Dark Ages.

Remember, you are speaking to Max Photon!

I fight for the Light!

And the light is going out on the US Constitution.



Cheers Pomeroo!

Max


* * *


Max, what I'm going to suggest can be construed as an insult, but it is not intended as such. I urge you to seek psychiatric help. Assuming you ignore my suggestion, I ask you to read the classic short story by Lionel Trilling, "Of This Time, Of That Place." I was wrong to call you a dunce. The problem is not one of intelligence. Trilling's story will make everything clear.

[MIKILLINI]

1.) How would it be known where to PLANT the thermite?

Judging by this question, you are already lost.

Thermite was planted at a variety of steel connections, to heat weaken the connections.

Planners found exploitable susceptibilities, such as A325 column splice bolts, thin spandrel splice plates, and floor truss chords (by the seats).

HOW did they find these exploitable susceptibilities?

Well, analysis I suppose, but the susceptibilities are perfectly obvious to even a parakeet (if you give it 10 seconds).

Judging by your response, you are working in your Frequently Attempted Conspiracy Theories so fervently, the point went over your head.
Apparently, you need things spelled out for you Max, see if you can follow.

Lets start with the airliners; Your conspiracists had to make a decision: To know which airport the hijackers were going through to board the planes, what flights they were going on, and which airline company, or companies whose planes they would take over.
As the official story goes, the planes that subsequently crashed into the twin towers were United Flight 175 and American Airlines Flight 11.
Perhaps those involved with the plotting of which airline company to use for this tragedy decided that it wouldn't look to obvious if two different companies were used?

These two planes had to be known, prior to 9/11, as the chosen ones to be sent by guidance systems, via remote off board according to you, to crash into the towers.

Now, the question you don't understand pertains to this; Now that these airliners were being guided toward the twin towers, where are they going to crash? Are you insinuating these conspiracists knew which floor(s) these airliners were going to crash into?

This same knowledge has to be applied in your complicated scenario, Max, as to where to place the thermite and the shock tubes so that the airliners would crash in the area they are placed. The conspiracists would look stupid and the plan would be a failure IF the thermite and shock tubes were planted on FLOORS the airliners DID NOT crash into.

Now do you understand the question? How would they know which floor to place these devices?
And of course you can supply evidence and sources to prove the remote guidance of the airliners through off-board control?

[Max Photon]

* * *

Mikillini,


I see the problem.


Obviously you are a Foreclosed 19-Hijacker Conspiracy Hypothesist.

The best your fixed (broken?) imagination can accommodate is some soggy little LIHOP.

MIHOP doesn't even cause a single synapse of yours to fire.

Hence I can see why you are lost, and why my work is unaccessible to you.

This explains why your questions are - shall we say - flaccid.


Mikillini, I know this blow your 0.1 amp fuse, but here goes...


There were no hijackers.


Max

* * *

[Bell]

Mikillini, I know this blow your 0.1 amp fuse, but here goes...


There were no hijackers.


Max

* * *


Oooh noes! Bell's world crumbles!

[Narveson]

Max, if you have a moment, could you answer my question from post #203? Thank you.

[e^n]

Mikillini, I know this blow your 0.1 amp fuse, but here goes...
There were no hijackers.
Max

Max, I haven't really had time to reply to you and for that I apologise, I feel understanding why you believe what you do is important for gaining an insight into the 'truther mindset'.

That said, can you point out the investigative process that led you to your theory? I am sure I have asked this question of you before but I cannot remember a substantial response.

If we examine the effects of your theory, it shows virtually no way of being easily tested against the 'official theory', you propose a theory where the collapse of the towers was mostly 'natural' except that some steel was slightly (significantly? Did you ever give figures) weaker than it should have been. I can think of no experiment done or that could easily be done which would indicate this result and as such I suspect you have formulated this theory from three components.

1. The towers were taken down by a controlled demolition
2. A subsequent investigation of the materials surrounding this event show no overt signs of controlled demolition therefore the method must have been indistinct.
3. Heat weakening steel via a non-visible means would be the most indistinct method

You seem to have fleshed out the various extensions to your theory (no hijackers, iron oxide pre-placed) simply to try and confirm your theory without any actual thought into the requirements for either. Essentially my questions to you then are these:

1. Provide me with the logical steps you took in order to decide the collapse was not damage/fire induced
2. Explain why your theory requires excess iron to be placed in the towers, what calculations indicate the steel was weaker than 'just' thermite in bolt access holes for example?.

I apologise if this is somewhat disjointed, I am trying to summarise the method of thinking I believe you to be employing in another thread also.

[twinstead]

Crazy people ROCK!

[MIKILLINI]

* * *

Mikillini,


I see the problem.


Obviously you are a Foreclosed 19-Hijacker Conspiracy Hypothesist.

The best your fixed (broken?) imagination can accommodate is some soggy little LIHOP.

MIHOP doesn't even cause a single synapse of yours to fire.

Hence I can see why you are lost, and why my work is unaccessible to you.

This explains why your questions are - shall we say - flaccid.


Mikillini, I know this blow your 0.1 amp fuse, but here goes...


There were no hijackers.


Max

* * *

So in order to dodge answering any of the questions I posed to you Max, there were no hijackers is the answer. Perhaps the pilot was this;

http://sidesalad.net/archives/AirplaneMovieOttoPilotInflatable.jpg

And perhaps, Max MIHOP, you might explain what happened to flights 175 and 11 along with its passengers?

[Apollo20]

MaX:

This was originally Posted by pomeroo:

"Does he strike you as mentally ill, as opposed to tripping on some sort of psychedelic drug? I've met aging hippies who talk and act very much like Max."

Well, I read an interesting article today that revealed that Francis Crick once told someone that he had taken a little LSD before he figured out the double-helix structure of DNA.

Makes you wonder if Pomeroo is onto something about Maxwell-Edison (majoring in medicine)

Bang, Bang, Maxwell's thermite hammer came down upon his head.......

The thought processes are obvious to me!

[Max Photon]

Excellent.

[Max Photon]

Max, I haven't really had time to reply to you and for that I apologise, I feel understanding why you believe what you do is important for gaining an insight into the 'truther mindset'.

That said, can you point out the investigative process that led you to your theory? I am sure I have asked this question of you before but I cannot remember a substantial response.


Actually, I gave you a substantial response that described my process.

It will take as many joules for me to find it as for you.



If we examine the effects of your theory, it shows virtually no way of being easily tested against the 'official theory',


One, two, three.....



Gentle readers, e^n is known in physics as a resistor. He is an energy sink.

(Note him wanting me to find my response to him that he can't find because - it's like - way over there.)

Another little form of resistance e^n keeps placing in front of Sir Maxwell is this baiting about testability or falsifiability.

Allow me to address that, once and for all.


e^n, MAX-MIHOP is easy to prove false.


Just look inside the box columns of fire-affected panels.


Now e^n, can you please explain the spoliation?


you propose a theory where the collapse of the towers was mostly 'natural' except that some steel was slightly (significantly? Did you ever give figures) weaker than it should have been. I can think of no experiment done or that could easily be done which would indicate this result...


Yoohoo, there is another dimension to science.

It's called o-b-s-e-r-v-a-t-i-o-n.

That's right e^n - I actually looked at evidence.

And I noticed many unusual and unexplained phenomena.

Then, just like magic, I thought.

For myself.



... and as such I suspect you have formulated this theory from three components.

1. The towers were taken down by a controlled demolition
2. A subsequent investigation of the materials surrounding this event show no overt signs of controlled demolition therefore the method must have been indistinct.
3. Heat weakening steel via a non-visible means would be the most indistinct method

You seem to have fleshed out the various extensions to your theory (no hijackers, iron oxide pre-placed) simply to try and confirm your theory without any actual thought into the requirements for either.


e^n, I have models - you know, ideas, metaphors.

These models have a liquid layout as every bit of new information comes in.

Again, I believe the real sciencey word for this is called thinking.



Essentially my questions to you then are these:

1. Provide me with the logical steps you took in order to decide the collapse was not damage/fire induced


No. Get it yourself.


2. Explain why your theory requires excess iron to be placed in the towers


Remember, there was:


planted thermite (to heat-weaken steel connections), and

improvised thermite (to create a phreato-thermatic explosion.


I assume you are asking about the improvised thermite.

The improvised thermite was designed to create a spectacular thermite+water explosion (phreato-thermatic explosion):


to serve as THE key media input signal to create the necessary illusion of Al Qaeda, which would be used to manufacture consent to illegally invade sovereign nations, and to demolish the US Constitution;

to provide energy to knock off SFRM (which was also KEY to NIST's pre-engineered narrative that missing SFRM resulted in sagging floors which pulled perimeter columns inward, causing them to fail, thereby initiating the collapse of the WTC towers);

to dislodge some floors from their seats, to seed the sagging floors narrative


You ask, why was excess iron placed in the towers?

Well, everyone makes a big stink that it would have been difficult to bring thermite into the towers. So the less they need to bring in, the better.

Why bring in aluminum, when the jet can provide the aluminum?

Why bring in iron-oxide?

Why not just bring in iron, and use water from the building's supply to provide the oxygen?

Rust generators, disguised as UPS batteries, were the simplest solution.


what calculations indicate the steel was weaker than 'just' thermite in bolt access holes for example?[/b].


I don't understand the question. Please rephrase it.


Cheers!

Max

* * *

[pomeroo]

Actually, I gave you a substantial response that described my process.

It will take as many joules for me to find it as for you.






One, two, three.....



Gentle readers, e^n is known in physics as a resistor. He is an energy sink.

(Note him wanting me to find my response to him that he can't find because - it's like - way over there.)

Another little form of resistance e^n keeps placing in front of Sir Maxwell is this baiting about testability or falsifiability.

Allow me to address that, once and for all.


e^n, MAX-MIHOP is easy to prove false.


Just look inside the box columns of fire-affected panels.


Now e^n, can you please explain the spoliation?





Yoohoo, there is another dimension to science.

It's called o-b-s-e-r-v-a-t-i-o-n.

That's right e^n - I actually looked at evidence.

And I noticed many unusual and unexplained phenomena.

Then, just like magic, I thought.

For myself.






e^n, I have models - you know, ideas, metaphors.

These models have a liquid layout as every bit of new information comes in.

Again, I believe the real sciencey word for this is called thinking.






No. Get it yourself.





Remember, there was:

planted thermite (to heat-weaken steel connections), and

improvised thermite (to create a phreato-thermatic explosion.I assume you are asking about the improvised thermite.

The improvised thermite was designed to create a spectacular thermite+water explosion (phreato-thermatic explosion):

to serve as THE key media input signal to create the necessary illusion of Al Qaeda, which would be used to manufacture consent to illegally invade sovereign nations, and to demolish the US Constitution;
to provide energy to knock off SFRM (which was also KEY to NIST's pre-engineered narrative that missing SFRM resulted in sagging floors which pulled perimeter columns inward, causing them to fail, thereby initiating the collapse of the WTC towers);
to dislodge some floors from their seats, to seed the sagging floors narrativeYou ask, why was excess iron placed in the towers?

Well, everyone makes a big stink that it would have been difficult to bring thermite into the towers. So the less they need to bring in, the better.

Why bring in aluminum, when the jet can provide the aluminum?

Why bring in iron-oxide?

Why not just bring in iron, and use water from the building's supply to provide the oxygen?

Rust generators, disguised as UPS batteries, were the simplest solution.





I don't understand the question. Please rephrase it.


Cheers!

Max

* * *


Max, sit down and rest. Try to understand that you haven't actually looked at any evidence. You have fabricated your absurd theories out of whole cloth.
There were nineteen jihadist hijackers, all of whom have been identified.
The jihadists are proud of their victory. They talk about it often.
There is not the slightest evidence to suggest the presence of thermite at the Twin Towers in the amounts you imagine.
You have not cast any doubt whatever on the conclusions reached by real researchers.

You require medical attention.

[Max Photon]

Max, sit down and rest. Try to understand that you haven't actually looked at any evidence. You have fabricated your absurd theories out of whole cloth.
There were nineteen jihadist hijackers, all of whom have been identified.
The jihadists are proud of their victory. They talk about it often.
There is not the slightest evidence to suggest the presence of thermite at the Twin Towers in the amounts you imagine.
You have not cast any doubt whatever on the conclusions reached by real researchers.

You require medical attention.


Fine.

Bring me some nurses.


* * *

[Gravy]

Please don't feed the troll.

[gumboot]

Hi Max Photon,

I have only one question. I apologise if you have already answered it - I don't have time to read six pages of posts to try find it.

My question is simple. How did this phreato-thermatic explosion you're referring to cause the exterior columns of the WTC towers to bow inwards and the floor trusses to sag downwards, both gradually over a period of many minutes?

I await your reply with giddy anticipation.

Regards,
-Gumboot

[Max Photon]

Hi Max Photon,

[snipped]

How did this phreato-thermatic explosion you're referring to cause the exterior columns of the WTC towers to bow inwards and the floor trusses to sag downwards, both gradually over a period of many minutes?

I await your reply with giddy anticipation.

Regards,
-Gumboot


You are (understandably) confused.

The phreato-thermatic explosion - created from improvised thermite - was designed to:


create a visually spectacular explosion, to serve as a key media input signal
dislodge SFRM
unseat some floor trusses
cause iron product to pool at low spots


Now, completely distinct from the improvise thermite explosion (the phreato-thermatic explosion), was planted thermite.

Thermite planted at column splices, spandrel splices, truss chords near the seats, and at various core connections, and linked and ignited by thermite-dusted shock-tube, was used to heat-weaken these connections.

Thermite in box columns caused visco-elastic creep of the columns.

Compromised bottom chords caused the floor membrane to exert catenary forces on the weakened columns.

Top chords largely stayed connected, as this was required to pull columns inward (thereby initiating collapse).


It was a simple affair to stretch these events over time, to create the illusion of migrating fires, and sagging floors seen through open windows, and all the other little scenes in the play.


I hope that answers your question.

If not, feel free to ask again.


Cheers!

Max

* * *

[pomeroo]

You are (understandably) confused.

The phreato-thermatic explosion - created from improvised thermite - was designed to:

create a visually spectacular explosion, to serve as a key media input signal
dislodge SFRM
unseat some floor trusses
cause iron product to pool at low spots
Now, completely distinct from the improvise thermite explosion (the phreato-thermatic explosion), was planted thermite.

Thermite planted at column splices, spandrel splices, truss chords near the seats, and at various core connections, and linked and ignited by thermite-dusted shock-tube, was used to heat-weaken these connections.

Thermite in box columns caused visco-elastic creep of the columns.

Compromised bottom chords caused the floor membrane to exert catenary forces on the weakened columns.

Top chords largely stayed connected, as this was required to pull columns inward (thereby initiating collapse).


It was a simple affair to stretch these events over time, to create the illusion of migrating fires, and sagging floors seen through open windows, and all the other little scenes in the play.


I hope that answers your question.

If not, feel free to ask again.


Cheers!

Max

* * *



What did the planes do, Max? THE PLANES, THE PLANES!

[StoneWT]

His theory is based on supposed 'anomalies' he didn't understand and his fanciful imagination.

"That's right e^n - I actually looked at evidence.

And I noticed many unusual and unexplained phenomena.

Then, just like magic, I thought."

This turkey is done.

[gumboot]

You are (understandably) confused.

The phreato-thermatic explosion - created from improvised thermite - was designed to:


create a visually spectacular explosion, to serve as a key media input signal
dislodge SFRM
unseat some floor trusses
cause iron product to pool at low spots


Now, completely distinct from the improvise thermite explosion (the phreato-thermatic explosion), was planted thermite.

Thermite planted at column splices, spandrel splices, truss chords near the seats, and at various core connections, and linked and ignited by thermite-dusted shock-tube, was used to heat-weaken these connections.

Thermite in box columns caused visco-elastic creep of the columns.

Compromised bottom chords caused the floor membrane to exert catenary forces on the weakened columns.

Top chords largely stayed connected, as this was required to pull columns inward (thereby initiating collapse).


It was a simple affair to stretch these events over time, to create the illusion of migrating fires, and sagging floors seen through open windows, and all the other little scenes in the play.


I hope that answers your question.

If not, feel free to ask again.


Cheers!

Max

* * *


Thanks. Yes, that answers my question.

:dl:

-Gumboot

[twinstead]

Crazy pe.....

well, you know.

[Max Photon]

MaX:

This was originally Posted by pomeroo:

"Does he strike you as mentally ill, as opposed to tripping on some sort of psychedelic drug? I've met aging hippies who talk and act very much like Max."

Well, I read an interesting article today that revealed that Francis Crick once told someone that he had taken a little LSD before he figured out the double-helix structure of DNA.

Makes you wonder if Pomeroo is onto something about Maxwell-Edison (majoring in medicine)

Bang, Bang, Maxwell's thermite hammer came down upon his head.......

The thought processes are obvious to me!



Hey Apollo,

I read the articles on Crick.

It is interesting that I wrote the following at my site some time back:


From...

Max Photon's Open Letter to Bazant, Le, Greening, and Benson - authors of "Collapse of World Trade Center Towers: What Did and Did Not Cause It?"


"You see World, as Max has said a hundred-trillion times, NIST isn't lying.

The NCSTAR reports graciously tell the truth - albeit the ambiguated truth - in this case, the partial truth.

For you dimmer switches out there, the ambiguated truth is a research bonanza.

"But Max, whyyyyyy?" (in an grating, irritating, whiny tone)

Because it's the truth for crying out loud! Good Lord, does Max have to explain the entire Universe - every single day? Think of NIST's and Bazant's ambiguated truth as 1/2 of a DNA double-helix.

Okay, you're still lost. I can tell by the mouth-breathing.

The ambiguated truth is like 1/2 of a DNA double-helix. That means the other half is a freebie, a gimme (...well, maybe not for you guys).

Trust me, if you put an erg of energy into thinking, you can figure out the other half of the truth-helix.

One half of the truth + the other half of the truth = The Whole Truth.


Ambiguity - a military-grade cloaking device - is being used to generate a veil - a screen - a curtain - of plausible deniability.

Do look behind the curtain. (No, not that one. That's your mommy's dress.)


The "spontaneous collapse" of the WTC towers - all magic-illusion - all military-deception - all MILDEC.

Well, all the events you describe, and NIST describes, happened. But they were synthesized - engineered - using thermite (and possibly water stored in the Cold Spot as an extra weigh-load).

Just in case you're still lost (and it's been six years now!) - that thermite was poured into perimeter-panel box columns to heat-weaken the steel, to create the illusion of a spontaneous collapse due to fires, so thugs like you can write your pre-engineered narratives, to generate necessary illusion for the manufacture of consent to demolish the US Constitution, and illegally invade other sovereign nations, to steal their natural resources, to be used to continue propping up the USDollar, which defaulted in 1971, the fact of which has been cloaked using pseudo-gangs of bond speculators (more thugs) and the PetroDollar system, equals controlled-demolition."


* * *


So you can see I was high on DNA at the time.


Anyone for a game of Crick?


Cheers!

Max

* * *

[uruk]

Wow. Someone needs to stay away from the medicine cabinet.
And the thesarus.

[uruk]

Hey Max. I read your web site. Somewhat entertaining if choose to slogg through it all. I did notice that you were able to admit mistakes.

I will point out that in the picture of the "so called" thermite shock tube, Would not the tube have been damaged or destroyed while delivering it's energy to the device? Why is it pristine in the picture? Don't you think those tubes could have been a UTP 25 cable or some other type of conduit that was in a section of the building not touched by fire? How can you tell just by looking at the picture that it is a "shock tube"? What criteria did you use to determine that those were "thermite shock tubes" and not something else?

Looking at pictures and video only give one very narrow point of view of an event. The conclusion you make is only as sound or unsound as the validity of your premisies. Basing you conclusion on pictures alone is not very sound.

Look at what happened with the mistake you made about the fire truck driving through "molten iron". The video was very decieving when you were looking at it with your "MAX-MIHOP" glasses on did it not? The resolution was so low that you missinterpreted the sun light on the ground.

9/11 Ground Zero is a crime scene. An investigator looks through the evidence and clues with no preconcieved conclusions. The investigator derives his conclusions based on what the evidence tells him.
It is not true investigation if you view the evidence with the sole purpose of proving a preconcieved conclusion. It is not intellectually honest.

[Max Photon]

Hey Max. I read your web site. Somewhat entertaining if choose to slogg through it all. I did notice that you were able to admit mistakes.


Thanks for visiting and reading. I'm glad there was some entertainment value. And I am glad you recognize that I admit mistakes.

It's actually not very hard. We are only talking about modeling here. They are only ideas or metaphors.


I will point out that in the picture of the "so called" thermite shock tube, Would not the tube have been damaged or destroyed while delivering it's energy to the device? Why is it pristine in the picture? Don't you think those tubes could have been a UTP 25 cable or some other type of conduit that was in a section of the building not touched by fire? How can you tell just by looking at the picture that it is a "shock tube"? What criteria did you use to determine that those were "thermite shock tubes" and not something else?


Shock-tube dusted with high-explosives, such as HMX, must remain fully intact.

Shock-tube is incredibly strong.

If the shock-tube were dusted with the absolute minimum of fine thermite dust - just enough to ensure the transmission of a small spark, I do not believe that would damage the shock tube.


Looking at pictures and video only give one very narrow point of view of an event. The conclusion you make is only as sound or unsound as the validity of your premisies. Basing you conclusion on pictures alone is not very sound.


Good grief, give me a little credit.

Do you really think I came up with thermite-dusted shock-tube ignited by lasers from WTC7 just from looking at one photo and a couple of videos?

My conclusions are based on the TOTAL SUM of all of my experience, not just a photo.

Also, please get your language straight.

I don't have a conclusion. I have a hypothesis. And all I am doing is presenting a set of hypotheses in public.

What I have learned though, is that you, and practically everyone here, do not have the multi-valued thinking capacity to entertain multiple hypotheses simultaneously.


Look at what happened with the mistake you made about the fire truck driving through "molten iron". The video was very decieving when you were looking at it with your "MAX-MIHOP" glasses on did it not? The resolution was so low that you missinterpreted the sun light on the ground.


What happened is perfectly natural.

I am modeling. I observe, I conjecture, some things fit, others don't, some are dead ends, others lead to vast insights.

The mistake was brief. I noted it, and moved on. Simple.

And then on a lot of other things, I am correct. Again, simple.


9/11 Ground Zero is a crime scene.


Then explain the spoliation!


I want YOU to explain to ME why the spoliation, if GZ was a crime scene?

I want anyone here to explain the spoliation.


Any ignoramus can figure out that the crime scene was compromised TO CLOAK THE CRIME!



An investigator looks through the evidence and clues with no preconceived conclusions. The investigator derives his conclusions based on what the evidence tells him.
It is not true investigation if you view the evidence with the sole purpose of proving a preconceived conclusion. It is not intellectually honest.


Exactly. That is why the NIST reports, based on a pre-engineered narrative - is the greatest crime against the scientific process in the history of mankind.

And this from our National Institute of (Flexible to Promote American Industry) Standards and blah blah blah.


Wake up uruk.

There are only a handful of hypotheses as to what initiated the collapse of the WTC towers.

--------------------

NIST and Bazant et. al. / 19-Hijacker Conspiracy Hypothesis

--------------------

Photon / Thermite to heat-weaken the steel (no explosives)

Apollo20 / Ammonium perchlorate to heat-weaken the steel

Wood / Lasers to (really) heat-weaken the steel

--------------------

Jones / Thermite (and possibly high-explosives) to cut/slice/melt steel

--------------------

The atomic crowd / nukes to...nuke...the steel.

--------------------


Wood's DEWs are out because the need for plausible deniability would never permit the use of exotic weapons.

The nukes are out because there are no corresponding radiation signatures.

Jones' THERMITE=CUTTING is out for several reasons:

Cutting is at the high end of the required energy spectrum
Demolition by cutting with thermite is impractical
Cutting devices would have been obvious on the perimeter
No cutting devices have been found
There is no evidence of cut columns.
NIST says NIST found no evidence of melted steel


Apollo20's AP model, while the high of elegance, does not appear to fit some key observations (unless I am not interpreting the model correctly).

WTC2/301/81 metal fire
The "white glows"
The metal flows
The seven major WTC2 "smoke releases"
The "pressure pulses"
The "smoke puffs" (as if from a steam pipe organ)
And a number of others...



That leaves NIST vs MAX-MIHOP.

NIST can't explain that above list either.

That leaves...guess who?


The sooner you and others accept this reality, the sooner we can clean up the mess.

* * *

[BanthaTracks]

I've always thought the forum here is a gold mine for those doctoral candidates in psychology to explore. On some topics, you can see the OP degrade into some delusional rantings while others start off from the "get-go", just plain silly and indicative of someone with mental illness. Along the way you have the forum members exchanging posts trying to make some sense of the OP and subsequent logic or lack there of in the inevitable replies.

At what point do you stop feeding the troll, and particularly in this case, when you do you stop feeding into the delusional nature of this individual and arguing every minute detail? Some post the kitten pictures and leave it at that, but some insist on debating issues as they spring up when there are show stoppers clearly called out along the way.

There is one topic in the forum where the poster said dogs can make themselves heavier -- this was a evolutionary trait to stop them from being stolen or some nonsense. That was the show stopper for some, but the poster goes on to make other ludicrous claims and there are still forum members willing to debate him on those additional issues. Now I can see when the threads are so long no one is going to read all the posts and new members aren't going to be acquainted with every nut job but sometimes the signs are so obvious.

I've also thought the forum could be a tool for psychologists to use with their patients as a means of pointing out "... see you aren't so bad, look at this psycho sob."

Seriously though, the forum is definitely an eye opener in many regards. I admire a lot of the posters here and the breadth of knowledge gathered in one place, so I'm curious to see what others think. I can imagine this has already been discussed and I'm falling into my own complaint of not looking around the forum before posting.

[uruk]

Thanks for visiting and reading. I'm glad there was some entertainment value. And I am glad you recognize that I admit mistakes.

It's actually not very hard. We are only talking about modeling here. They are only ideas or metaphors. O.K.





Shock-tube dusted with high-explosives, such as HMX, must remain fully intact.

Shock-tube is incredibly strong.

If the shock-tube were dusted with the absolute minimum of fine thermite dust - just enough to ensure the transmission of a small spark, I do not believe that would damage the shock tube. Just about every source I 've read about thermite is that it is notoriously difficult to ignite because of the high ignition temperature to get the reaction going. somewhere in the nieghborhood of 1200 C. That knid of temperature might cause some visible effects to the shock tube.





Good grief, give me a little credit.

Do you really think I came up with thermite-dusted shock-tube ignited by lasers from WTC7 just from looking at one photo and a couple of videos?

My conclusions are based on the TOTAL SUM of all of my experience, not just a photo.

Also, please get your language straight.

I don't have a conclusion. I have a hypothesis. And all I am doing is presenting a set of hypotheses in public.

What I have learned though, is that you, and practically everyone here, do not have the multi-valued thinking capacity to entertain multiple hypotheses simultaneously.
I'm sorry, you missunderstood me. I was talking about those two tube like structures in the photo only. How did you determin that those two particular tubes in the picture are shock tubes and not something else like conduit ot UTP cable. I'm assuming you have never actually seen the type of shock tube you are talking about.





What happened is perfectly natural.

I am modeling. I observe, I conjecture, some things fit, others don't, some are dead ends, others lead to vast insights.

The mistake was brief. I noted it, and moved on. Simple.

And then on a lot of other things, I am correct. Again, simple. Well how do you know you are not making the same mistake with the "tube" photo that you were with the molten steel video?





Then explain the spoliation!


I want YOU to explain to ME why the spoliation, if GZ was a crime scene?

I want anyone here to explain the spoliation.


Any ignoramus can figure out that the crime scene was compromised TO CLOAK THE CRIME!
Not quite sure what you mean here. Can you give me an example?






Exactly. That is why the NIST reports, based on a pre-engineered narrative - is the greatest crime against the scientific process in the history of mankind.

And this from our National Institute of (Flexible to Promote American Industry) Standards and blah blah blah.


Wake up uruk. Wow, I didn't get that from the NIST report. They knew the airplane crashed in to the buildings. They knew the architecture and materials in the building. They know the laws of physics as well as we can understand them today. And they did not discover any evidence of explosives. They came to a theory based on the evidence they had.


There are only a handful of hypotheses as to what initiated the collapse of the WTC towers.

--------------------

NIST and Bazant et. al. / 19-Hijacker Conspiracy Hypothesis

--------------------

Photon / Thermite to heat-weaken the steel (no explosives)

Apollo20 / Ammonium perchlorate to heat-weaken the steel

Wood / Lasers to (really) heat-weaken the steel

--------------------

Jones / Thermite (and possibly high-explosives) to cut/slice/melt steel

--------------------

The atomic crowd / nukes to...nuke...the steel.

--------------------


Wood's DEWs are out because the need for plausible deniability would never permit the use of exotic weapons. There are plenty of other reasons that DEW are out of the picture.

The nukes are out because there are no corresponding radiation signatures. No argument from me here.

Jones' THERMITE=CUTTING is out for several reasons:

Cutting is at the high end of the required energy spectrum
Demolition by cutting with thermite is impractical
Cutting devices would have been obvious on the perimeter
No cutting devices have been found
There is no evidence of cut columns.
NIST says NIST found no evidence of melted steel
No argument here.

Apollo20's AP model, while the high of elegance, does not appear to fit some key observations (unless I am not interpreting the model correctly).

WTC2/301/81 metal fire Aluminum alone burns on it's own at a significantly lower temperature than Thermite.
The "white glows" Again, could have been cause by burning aluminum.
The metal flows Again aluminum melts at a relatively low tempurature. I've seen pictures of aluminum rims melted and flowing in a parking basement where a raging fire was going on abouve.
The seven major WTC2 "smoke releases" Fire and smoke in the elevator shafts? Collapsing floors?
The "pressure pulses" See abouve
The "smoke puffs" (as if from a steam pipe organ) see abouve again.
And a number of others...



That leaves NIST vs MAX-MIHOP.

NIST can't explain that above list either.

That leaves...guess who?


The sooner you and others accept this reality, the sooner we can clean up the mess.

* * * If NIST is correct the above list is explained.

[Max Photon]

* * *

uruk,

You said GZ was a crime scene.

Yet they destroyed the steel.

So for example, no fire-affected perimeter panels were recovered from WTC2.

If the fire-affected panels had not been destroyed, it would have been a simple affair to look inside the box columns for signs of thermite.

MAX-MIHOP indeed makes testable predictions, and is falsifiable.

It is not my fault others destroyed the evidence.



* * *

[MIKILLINI]

What did the planes do, Max? THE PLANES, THE PLANES!

Ron, he claims there were no hijackers. The planes were drones and guided by remote sources, which prompted Me to ask again what happened to flights 175 and 11 along with the passengers. Did these people go on planes already rigged to a pre-programmed destination in the software or guided at the point of when the airliners turned off course. Max claims this. What about the pilots flying these planes?.... Did they just do nothing when the planes started veering off course? I think not, they would have done something..certainly not turn off the transponder. Accordingly, using this logic, that would mean the other planes; 77 was programmed/guided into the Pentagon and 93 was veered into the ground to make a great story.
At this point, I am not going to feed the troll anymore.

[Narveson]

Max, I'll ask again if you could answer the question from post #203, re posted here:


"I worked at Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory in geophysics.

The project was related to cloaking underground nuclear tests behind naturally-occurring earthquakes."

Max, was the above referenced project a classified program? Possibly for the DOE?


Thanks.

[pomeroo]

* * *

uruk,

You said GZ was a crime scene.

Yet they destroyed the steel.

So for example, no fire-affected perimeter panels were recovered from WTC2.

If the fire-affected panels had not been destroyed, it would have been a simple affair to look inside the box columns for signs of thermite.

MAX-MIHOP indeed makes testable predictions, and is falsifiable.

It is not my fault others destroyed the evidence.



* * *


No steel was destroyed, Max. You're lying.

[Max Photon]

* * *

Narveson: No.


Pomeroo: ?????????????????????????????????????????

Could you please enlighten poor old Max Photon.


* * *

[Narveson]

Thank you for replying, Max.

[Max Photon]

[snipped] At this point, I am not going to feed the troll anymore.


God Bless America!


* * *

[pomeroo]

* * *

Narveson: No.


Pomeroo: ?????????????????????????????????????????

Could you please enlighten poor old Max Photon.


* * *


I have no way of knowing if you're poor. You have demonstrated that you are ignorant and unbalanced.

All structural steel from the Twin Towers was recovered.

[Max Photon]

I have no way of knowing if you're poor. You have demonstrated that you are ignorant and unbalanced.

All structural steel from the Twin Towers was recovered.


1.) What percentage of structural steel did NIST collect and study?

2.) What percentage of perimeter panels did NIST collect and study?

3.) How many fire-affected perimeter panels from WTC2 did NIST collect and study?

4.) You claim no WTC structural steel was destroyed. Where is that steel now?

[Max Photon]

No steel was destroyed, Max. You're lying.


Attention Universe:

Pomeroo is steadfastly claiming that no WTC steel was destroyed.


To repeat:


Pomeroo claims no WTC steel was destroyed.



* * *

[MetalliSociety]

Attention Everyone With Common Sense:

Max claims steel melted with no proof.

I Repeat:

Max claims steel melted with no proof.

[JimBenArm]

Attention Universe:

Pomeroo is steadfastly claiming that no WTC steel was destroyed.


To repeat:


Pomeroo claims no WTC steel was destroyed.



* * *
So then it should be a simple matter for you to prove this claim wrong. If, in fact, it is.

(Psst. This is your cue to say something else stupid...)

[Max Photon]

Attention Everyone With Common Sense:

Max claims steel melted with no proof.

I Repeat:

Max claims steel melted with no proof.



You have got to be joking.

I fight to the death that steel was NOT melted.

Where the $%#!? have you been?


Here, try this on for size...

For God's sake R.Mackey, cut with the cutting. Try heat-weakening.
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=3016492#post3016492


* * *

[uruk]

* * *

uruk,

You said GZ was a crime scene.

Yet they destroyed the steel.

So for example, no fire-affected perimeter panels were recovered from WTC2.

If the fire-affected panels had not been destroyed, it would have been a simple affair to look inside the box columns for signs of thermite.

MAX-MIHOP indeed makes testable predictions, and is falsifiable.

It is not my fault others destroyed the evidence.



* * *

All of the steel was not necessary for investigation,Just the affected areas. And they had to remove the debris to get at possible survivors and remains. Besides all the steel and debris were checked out and cataloged at Fresh Kills before it was sold off. 6 million tons of steel takes up alot of space. And they never found any signs of explosives or thermite residue.

[Max Photon]

All of the steel was not necessary for investigation,Just the affected areas. And they had to remove the debris to get at possible survivors and remains. Besides all the steel and debris were checked out and cataloged at Fresh Kills before it was sold off. 6 million tons of steel takes up alot of space. And they never found any signs of explosives or thermite residue.



You are saying they destroyed the evidence.



And I am still waiting for Pomeroo to answer my four questions.

(I guarantee you he won't.)


* * *

[Unsecured Coins]

stop it. you're making my unborn children stupid

[Reality Believer]

Is it about time to move this entire thread to AAH? Nothing productive is being accomplished. I think most of us look at it like a bad car accident, hoping to catch a glimpse of an eyeball or patch of hair lodged in the wreckage. There is certainly no intellectual value . It is beyond hope.