FDNY Thyroid Cancer Shock

[Alzke]

http://www.nypost.com/seven/07082007/news/regionalnews/fdny_thyroid_cancer_shock_regionalnews_ginger_adam s_otis_____and_susan_edelman.htm

First it was blood cancer now thyroid cancer. First responders are getting sick and dying. Would a simple building collapse initiated by kerosene fueled fires cause our heros bodies to be so severely sickened to the point of potential death within 6 years ?

Thyroid cancer is strongly tied to radiation exposure and has been observed in gross frequency at "Ground Zeros" such as: Cherynobl, Hiroshima and nuclear test sites from decades past.

This thread should be used to try determine other possible causes of the increased rate in cancers of the blood and thyroid to first responders exposed to the "pile" at "Ground Zero".

[The Great Hairy One]

Is the NY Post a reliable newspaper? And they're talking about, what 14 people out of how many total?

Cheers,
TGHO

[~enigma~]

Could somebody do me a favor? Take say 1000 pennies and throw them in the air. Explain why they do not fall uniformly and they cluster in some spots while not in others. Then explain this to the original poster who apparently doesn't understand...

[PhantomWolf]

Would a simple building collapse initiated by kerosene fueled fires

You're ignore the toxity of the dust and air at GZ from the fires. The air would have been filled with Dioxins, phenols, and far worse stuff. The area was checked for Radiation, it wasn't a factor, but the chemical soup that was bleching out toxic gas... That's another story

[maccy]

http://www.nypost.com/seven/07082007/news/regionalnews/fdny_thyroid_cancer_shock_regionalnews_ginger_adam s_otis_____and_susan_edelman.htm

First it was blood cancer now thyroid cancer. First responders are getting sick and dying. Would a simple building collapse initiated by kerosene fueled fires cause our heros bodies to be so severely sickened to the point of potential death within 6 years ?

8 cases out of 11,000. National average is 4.3 out of 100,000. Could be a cluster, but might not. My statistics isn't up to determining if this is significant or not.

There's nothing in the article to suggest "sickened to the point of potential death".

There was certainly a lot of dust and chemical smoke in the air in the aftermath of 9/11. This article (http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0091-6765%28199808%29106%3A8%3C447%3ARAOTFC%3E2.0.CO%3B 2-D&size=LARGE&origin=JSTOR-enlargePage) seems to suggest that there may well be chemical carcinogens for thyroid cancer.

Thyroid cancer is strongly tied to radiation exposure and has been observed in gross frequency at "Ground Zeros" such as: Cherynobl, Hiroshima and nuclear test sites from decades past. Do you have sources for the rate of occurrence in these cases?

So this would be radiation that doesn't show up on a Geiger counter? Are you suggesting that there was radioactive material stored in the towers? You do realise that even a small nuclear explosion would be radically different to what was observed?

This thread should be used to try determine other possible causes of the increased rate in cancers of the blood and thyroid to first responders exposed to the "pile" at "Ground Zero".Two possibilities:

1. it's a statistical anomaly, within the variation you would expect given the sample size.

2. there were chemical carcinogens in the area of Ground Zero for a period after 9/11.

Edited to add:

Some information about cancer clusters:

http://www.cdc.gov/nceh/clusters/faq.htm
http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/factsheet/Risk/clusters

[jhunter1163]

Actually, only eight cases of cancer were found. Also, the 4.3/100,000 figure is per year, so in six years you'd expect 4.3 x 6 = 25.8 cases per 100,000.

However, 8 in 11,000 = a little over 72 per 100,000. The rate is still three times what you'd expect, but with such low rates per 100K I don't think you could rule out a statistical fluctuation.

ETA: And there very well could have been chemical carcinogens at GZ. Maccy beat me to it.

[Alareth]

Considering the fact that there is no detectable increase in background radiation levels at the WTC site, the cause would most likely be chemical in nature.

That also assumes that this isn't some bizarre co-incidence.

The article fails to state exactly which form of thyroid cancer these men have. Different forms have different causes.

Taking a clue from the comment that it most commonly found in women, it's a high possibility that it's papillary cancer, most common in women who are between 30 and 50 years of age.

There is still the possibility that it could be:
Follicular cancer
Medullary cancer
Anaplastic cancer
Thyroid lymphomaAll these have various causes from chemical/radiological contaminants, to genetic defects that run in a familial line.

We need more information to properly discuss causation.

[Travis]

http://www.nypost.com/seven/07082007/news/regionalnews/fdny_thyroid_cancer_shock_regionalnews_ginger_adam s_otis_____and_susan_edelman.htm

First it was blood cancer now thyroid cancer. First responders are getting sick and dying. Would a simple building collapse initiated by kerosene fueled fires cause our heros bodies to be so severely sickened to the point of potential death within 6 years ?

First off there is nothing simple with a building collapse of the type found at the WTC. Secondly, only 8 firefighters out of 11,000 have this cancer. Thirdly, there were many nasty things that were at the WTC site, none of them necessarily implying anything sinister, that could be causes of this. Fourthly, trying to do a post hoc determination of the cause of a cancer that can be either hereditary or environmentally caused is pretty darn hard.

The typically slow growth of thyroid cancer makes it difficult to pin down causes. Based on research into thyroid cancer resulting from radiation, research suggests that this cancer usually does not develop until 10-20 years after exposure (Collins). If that is also true of any other causes of thyroid cancer, it will make identifying those causes, not to mention studying them, very difficult.

Source (http://www.papthyca.com/) for above.

Thyroid cancer is strongly tied to radiation exposure and has been observed in gross frequency at "Ground Zeros" such as: Cherynobl, Hiroshima and nuclear test sites from decades past.

25% of thyroid cancer cases are spontaneous with no discernible outside cause. More importantly, are you implying a radiological event at the WTC site? If, for the sake of argument, there was, what would that imply?

This thread should be used to try determine other possible causes of the increased rate in cancers of the blood and thyroid to first responders exposed to the "pile" at "Ground Zero".

Certainly. We have some posters on here with medical knowledge, I'd like to know what they think.

[maccy]

To add to what Travis and Alareth have just said, I'd like to reiterate:

There's nothing in the article to suggest "sickened to the point of potential death".

and add that, from what Wikipedia has to say, it looks like most cases of Thyroid cancer are not fatal:

There are four forms: papillary, follicular, medullary and anaplastic. The most common forms (papillary and follicular) are slow growing and may recur, but these forms are rarely fatal in patients under age 45. The medullary form also has a good prognosis if it is restricted to the thyroid gland and a poorer prognosis if there has been spread; anaplastic thyroid cancers are fast-growing and respond poorly to therapy.
source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thyroid_cancer

I'm sure TAM will have something to say once Canadian time rolls around.

[Corsair 115]

Thyroid cancer is strongly tied to radiation exposure and has been observed in gross frequency at "Ground Zeros" such as: Cherynobl, Hiroshima and nuclear test sites from decades past.You're not going to use this to try and claim a nuclear weapon was set off in the WTC complex, are you?

[Unfit4Command]

Eight people who were working at Ground Zero have come down with thyroid cancer several years later? There can only be one explanation for this, Mini-nukes.

[maccy]

Could somebody do me a favor? Take say 1000 pennies and throw them in the air. Explain why they do not fall uniformly and they cluster in some spots while not in others. Then explain this to the original poster who apparently doesn't understand...

And, yes, IPODs really are random (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6854309/site/newsweek/).

(unless you choose the setting that makes the shuffle less random in order to appear more random)

[Alt+F4]

Is the NY Post a reliable newspaper?

No.

[westprog]

You're ignore the toxity of the dust and air at GZ from the fires. The air would have been filled with Dioxins, phenols, and far worse stuff. The area was checked for Radiation, it wasn't a factor

Radiation (at least ionizingradiation) is one of the easiest things to check for. It's correspondingly one of the hardest things to hide. If there was sufficient radiation at Ground Zero to cause cancer, it would have been easy to track down.

but the chemical soup that was bleching out toxic gas... That's another story

There's actually a reason why people respect the bravery of firemen. They go into those clouds of smoke and dust knowing that they are toxic and that bad things might come from it.

Anyone who's put a plastic container on a hot stove knows how to produce toxic fumes. Multiply that by a billion.

[Devil's Advocate]

Wasn't there already a report about the EPA saying it was ok to be at GZ when it was later proven it was not? I recall hearing something about it on the news. But I think it had to do more with particle inhalation than anything sinister like radiation or anything of the sort.

If I can dig up a link I'll edit and post it.

[PhantomWolf]

Wasn't there already a report about the EPA saying it was ok to be at GZ when it was later proven it was not? I recall hearing something about it on the news. But I think it had to do more with particle inhalation than anything sinister like radiation or anything of the sort.

If I can dig up a link I'll edit and post it.

Yes this is one of the real scandals of 9/11, along with the discarding and burial of human remains in the landfill and the failure to upgrade the firemen's radios even though they were known to have failed in the 1993 bombing of the towers. The fact that the resucers and clean up crews were told that the sites were safe and that the dust was non-toxic is a major issue that has been lost in the mess of "Truth[supTM[/sup]".

[westprog]

Yes this is one of the real scandals of 9/11, along with the discarding and burial of human remains in the landfill and the failure to upgrade the firemen's radios even though they were known to have failed in the 1993 bombing of the towers. The fact that the resucers and clean up crews were told that the sites were safe and that the dust was non-toxic is a major issue that has been lost in the mess of "Truth[supTM[/sup]".

It's an example of how the Truth movement has done serious harm. If I were of a conspiratorial nature, I'd suggest that the entire movement was set up by Bush to cover up the numerous failures that made 9/11 happen.

[Alt+F4]

Wasn't there already a report about the EPA saying it was ok to be at GZ when it was later proven it was not?

That's correct but it doesn't bode well for those who believe that the Bush Administration was behind 9/11. If the idea was pull off something as horrific as 9/11 in order to get the public to support Bush's attempt to destroy American democracy, then it would have made sense to declare all of lower Manhattan a toxic death zone for months to come.

In addition to making 9/11 even more tragic, shutting down ground zero would have given the perps time to remove any evidence of controlled demolitions, mini-nukes, missiles, top secret documents.....whatever.

[CurtC]

Well that's it then - the towers were brought down with nuclear weapons. This NY Post article can lead to no other possible conclusion.

All sarcasm aside, it's not much of a coincidence even, to find statistical fluctuations within a large population. Look at it this way - out of 11,000 workers, you would expect a lot of them to get various cancers and other diseases just because they're humans. Of course, this subset won't get the various diseases at exactly the same rate as what we observe in the general population, just because of statistical fluctuations. It will always be possible to find these fluctuations, if you torture the data long enough, and create the impression among some people that there must be something sinister happening.

Or, there could be some chemical exposure that increased their risk. We don't know, at least not yet.

But I still think it all must mean that nuclear bombs brought the towers down.

[Alt+F4]

Or, there could be some chemical exposure that increased their risk. We don't know, at least not yet.

And consider the fact that most of the FDNY members who worked the pile were veteran fire fighters who had been inhailing all sorts of nasty crap for years before 9/11 even happened.

[Blackadder_no]

Is the NY Post a reliable newspaper?

http://sounds.wavcentral.com/movies/top_secret/moron.mp3

:rolleyes: