UFO's and the Government

[Devil's Advocate]

Of course the conspiracy being the cover up and lies regarding it.
This is the only documentary on the UFO debate that does not leave you with a statement such as,"Are we alone? Have Alien craft been visiting earth? We may never know...."
Thank god for the FOIA...some of the documents are incredible if they are real.

I believe it was ripped from the sci-fi channel.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBtVOhAl2ks

Thoughts on the topic?

[Undesired Walrus]

Of course I'd like to believe that there are aliens out there who can show us humans we are really not that great, but you have to wonder why they simply shove a stick up our arse and then are on their way.

Simply speculation with no evidence to back up, but I really have a hard time believing that the US would cover up proof of aliens.

Interesting point: The first guy who saw a UFO was in a plane and said it 'skipped across the sky like a saucer'. Bear in mind, it wasn't a saucer shape.

But what did people start to 'see'? Saucers.

Glad we finally have a UFO thread.

[Stellafane]

Zippo possibility as far as I'm concerned. There's simply no there there.

[qarnos]

Glad we finally have a UFO thread.

Oi! (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=79588)

[Devil's Advocate]

Of course I'd like to believe that there are aliens out there who can show us humans we are really not that great, but you have to wonder why they simply shove a stick up our arse and then are on their way.

Simply speculation with no evidence to back up, but I really have a hard time believing that the US would cover up proof of aliens.

Interesting point: The first guy who saw a UFO was in a plane and said it 'skipped across the sky like a saucer'. Bear in mind, it wasn't a saucer shape.

But what did people start to 'see'? Saucers.

Glad we finally have a UFO thread.

Why do I think they would come? Why do kids get ant farms? :)
Think of how a highly advanced civilization would view us. We would have to be at the very least interesting to them.
One may even say,"Wow, those CT guys are full of sh(self edit)!"
lol Sorry, could not resist...
But Alien 1 may say,"Hey, remember the history holograms about when we used to use rockets to go to our moon like a million years ago?"
Alien 2: "lol....to the moon....lol"

[MG1962]

Interesting point: The first guy who saw a UFO was in a plane and said it 'skipped across the sky like a saucer'. Bear in mind, it wasn't a saucer shape.

But what did people start to 'see'? Saucers.

Glad we finally have a UFO thread.

Interestingly enough he was actually watching his own instrument lights

[Revolutionary91]

This is the best documentary I have seen on UFOs. All the witnesses are pilots, and the original recordings of their talk with control towers are played.

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-3949790119588474060&q=ufo+pilots&total=109&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=1

[Devil's Advocate]

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Check this out. I do not know the story behind it, but it is one of the most interesting videos I've seen. It's only 17 seconds long.
It could be a fake, but it would be the best fake I've ever seen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWYqHIN7Hb0&mode=related&search=


*edit* Would help if I posted the link....
:D

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Of course I'd like to believe that there are aliens out there who can show us humans we are really not that great, but you have to wonder why they simply shove a stick up our arse and then are on their way.

Simply speculation with no evidence to back up, but I really have a hard time believing that the US would cover up proof of aliens.

Interesting point: The first guy who saw a UFO was in a plane and said it 'skipped across the sky like a saucer'. Bear in mind, it wasn't a saucer shape.

But what did people start to 'see'? Saucers.

Glad we finally have a UFO thread.

UFOs is one of my favourite topics.

The "first guy who saw a UFO" was Kenneth Arnold. If you read his original report and compare it to descriptions of how pelicans fly when they migrate. -- which they were doing at that time and place -- you will find that what he saw were pelicans, The only issue is that he "saw" them "fly behind a mountain" from which he estimated their size and distance. This is explained in that they were lit from below by sunlight reflected from snow. When they entered the shadow of the mountain, they were no longer lit and seemed to disappear.

So many of the "best" UFO stories have similar prosaic explanations. The stories get repeated over and over. The explanations are completely ignored. :mad:

[grmcdorman]

The stories get repeated over and over. The explanations are completely ignored. :mad:Sounds familiar in a more recent context, no? Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose. Or... "It takes all the running you can do to stay in one place. If you want to get somewhere else, you must run at least twice as fast." (Lewis Carrol, Alice Through the Looking-Glass.)

Sigh.

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Sounds familiar in a more recent context, no? Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose. Or... "It takes all the running you can do to stay in one place. If you want to get somewhere else, you must run at least twice as fast." (Lewis Carrol, Alice Through the Looking-Glass.)

Sigh.

Or. "A Lie is half-way around the World before Truth has a chance to put his boots on."

Double sigh. :boggled:

[Stellafane]

Damn, I wish there were more to talk about here. I had a youthful fascination with UFOs. And as an astronomer, the possibilities of what UFOs could be have enormous potential appeal for me. But I've researched the subject a lot, from Ezekial to Yucatan and everything else in between, and try as I might (and believe me, I have) there's virtually nothing that gives me even the slightest pause or makes me want to say "hmmm." It's too bad in a way -- I would personally love to see a UFO -- but as I said, no there there. In my opinion, it's a content empty discussion.

[DavidS]

Of course I'd like to believe that there are aliens out there who can show us humans we are really not that great, but you have to wonder why they simply shove a stick up our arse and then are on their way.
I don't know about you, but to my mind somebody that can casually drop by to shove a stick up our ass and then go on his way without much concern for any response is pretty clearly demonstrating his assessment of our greatness.

In case they're listening in: For our visitors' continued comfort and convenience I will accept without proof that extraterrestrial travelers are sufficiently greater than we, and hereby waive this particular demonstration requirement for my part.

[Triterope]

I really have a hard time believing that the US would cover up proof of aliens.

I really have a hard time believing that the US could cover up proof of aliens.

The technology it would take to fly from an unknown planet to Earth would be radically beyond that of Earth. Any attempt to control it would be like tribal warriors with pointed sticks trying to cover up the existence of a modern mechanized army in their village.

Not to mention that the sky is under constant observation by disparate, independent parties -- astronomers, air traffic controllers, pilots, weather researchers, and the like. If an extraterrestrial object did approach earth, it would be spotted by these types of people long before it would be visible to the naked eye. I doubt any decent-sized object could even pass through our solar system without being detected.

The idea that an extra-terrestrial object would be missed by all the radar, tracking stations, and telescopes in the world, and spotted by some guy wandering around his backyard, is just plain silly.

Mind you, I believe that extraterrestrial life exists, in the sense that the observable size of the universe makes it likely that some planet, somewhere, harbors life. But these "I saw a UFO and nobody else did" stories defy simple logic.

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Well we are not getting a debate here at all! :D

It's a bloody "Love In". :jaw-dropp

Can someone invite a UFO kook or two? ;)

[Devil's Advocate]

Damn, I wish there were more to talk about here. I had a youthful fascination with UFOs. And as an astronomer, the possibilities of what UFOs could be have enormous potential appeal for me. But I've researched the subject a lot, from Ezekial to Yucatan and everything else in between, and try as I might (and believe me, I have) there's virtually nothing that gives me even the slightest pause or makes me want to say "hmmm." It's too bad in a way -- I would personally love to see a UFO -- but as I said, no there there. In my opinion, it's a content empty discussion.

I've seen two craft that defy common known capabilities within 200 feet of me (combined distance, not at the same time) and one that I thought was a satellite in space until it stopped and started making a triangle pattern over and over.
I was around 16 years old on that one. I wish I would have counted how many times it made that triangle. Don't ask me why, it just is a desire I've always had about it that I cannot explain a reason for.

Another one is a long story, but in short, it was about 50 feet up and 50 feet away from my brother and me and it was hovering. (It had followed us in my brothers car for about 5 miles.) It was an area that had a lot of trees, so we just knew it was a light, but could not tell what it was.
The only clearing for quite a few more miles was a church.
We lost sight of it for about two minutes and when we came around the corner, it was hovering above the church.

We pulled into the church parking lot and I got out of the car. My brother stayed in the car at this time and was looking at it through the windshield.
(He was driving)
When I got out, I walked about five feet in front of the car and was looking at the craft. It was around 2am, so I did not get much detail.
It was triangular, with lights on each corner. All I could tell was it seemed like the front and right rear edges came to a point. It looked like a blade.
(I could not see anything but the light on the left rear corner)

The craft was completely silent. I'm not sure how long I stood there looking and it, but I bet you could have driven a truck in my mouth...lol
Well, I asked by brother to flash the head lights. The car was pointed right at it. Somewhere along the line my brother had gotten out of the car, but he stood inside the open door. I never noticed that he got out.
Well, he said he would not flash the lights at it. I should have known then what I found out later....
I asked him a few times to do it and he said no each time. So I got a little mad and snapped at him to do it.
So he did, he flashed the lights three times. And about three seconds later, the lights on the craft pulsed three times.

I cannot describe what I felt when it flashed back. It was kind of like the chill up your spine, only it was the whole core of my body did it. I honestly was not expecting it to do anything. I said something that I will not post on the formed, but it was just excitement in a crude form. "Holy f***ing s**t ! That was bada*s !!!" Something to that effect.

And here is what I should have seen coming came....as soon as I said,"Do it again, do it again!" I heard the door shut.
My brother rolled up to where I was turning the car to put the door on my left said and he said,"Get in!"
I just said,"Do it again! Flash it again!"
And he started to pull ahead like he was going to leave me there. He said,"Get in now, I'm leaving with or without you."
So I got in the car.
I was not upset at that time, I was still in shock but in an excited way. My brother was shaking, and he was looking in the rear view mirror more than he was looking at the road.
He was terrified. I still rag him about it, and he laughs about it now. But he admits that if it ever happened again, he would leave just as before.

I do not know the origin of the craft. All I know is that it never made a sound.

The other I saw was with a friend. It was also very late, around 3am. We were walking to the large neighborhood pool. It was about a half mile from my house. We would jump the fence and swim at night.
On the way, I do not know if it is connected, but it could have been that is why I say this part....way off in the distance we saw what looked like a firework coming down. You know the old comet ones that would leave trails off the back? Well like that, but the front was burning orange and the tail was green. It was a long trail. It could have been a firework, I am not sure.

We swim for around and hour and go back to my house. We hang outside for a while talking, I was sitting on a project car I was building, Steven was in front of it standing in the driveway.
I kept picking up movement out of my peripheral, and kept looking to my right. All I saw was a street light through some trees.
So we kept talking, but I kept looking to my right. After I did it about five times, Steven started looking and asked me what I kept looking at.
I just thought that a breeze was catching the branches and causing them to sway and disrupting the street light so it looked like it was moving.

Then when I said that to Steven, he watched for a second and said,"No, I think the pole the light on is about to fall, because the light is moving."
So we walk down my driveway, and it is not the streetlight at all. That street light was not working.
About 75 feet off the ground, the light was coming towards us quickly. It was coming really quickly.
As it came close then it became clear what it was, my first reaction was to jump under my car. I have no idea why. Something just did not feel right.
I did not feel that way with the triangular craft.

This craft was saucer shaped, but it had a large tube in the center of it. It was an amber color, and looked like it had to have been about ten feet long, and about 1/5th the size of the crafts diameter.
It seemed to slow as it got to about 20 feet from us before it passed almost directly over head. The only reason we could tell it's shape was because of that light illuminated the bottom of it. I was focused on that tube. Steven said he saw windows ringing around the outside edges around it's center.
I did not see that, because I was focused on the tube.
It, like the triangular craft, was completely silent.
Then, once it passed us by about 30 feet, it picked up speed, and I mean a lot of speed. We looked at each other as we lost sight of it because of my house, both bug eyed and slack jawed.
So without a word, we both ran up the stairs to the deck on the back of my house, and we only saw it for a few more seconds before it was out of sight.
Steven and I did not speak to each other the rest of the night. I have no idea why, but we didn't.

I know it is hard to believe, but I'd swear any oath that those are indeed facts. Not birds, not swamp gas....aircraft.
Again, I have no idea if they were alien or not, but I just do not know of anything the U.S. government has that is anything thing like the craft I've seen.

[Björn Toulouse]

I've seen two craft that defy common known capabilities within 200 feet of me ........



What year was this?

[Devil's Advocate]

What year was this?

Are you trying to get my age out of me? lol

The Triangular craft was around 1991-1992. The Disk/Saucer was around 1993.

All of them in Georgia.
No military bases around the area's of the sightings.

The first was about 60 miles from Atlanta.
The second was about 80 miles from Atlanta.
The third was around 40 miles from Atlanta.

[petra10]

I love UFO stories and anything to do with aliens but I dont believe they visit our planet.I am inclined to think if they came here they would just let us know.I dont see the point of all the sneaking about at night time,taking people from their beds then return them.
There has got to be life in other planets in the universe,it doesn't make sense for there not to be.They could be more advanced than us or just the same who knows.
As for governments coving up stuff I am not sure.Would it benefit them,maybe,or if they shared their knowledge it might make them more powerful.

[Devil's Advocate]

I love UFO stories and anything to do with aliens but I dont believe they visit our planet.I am inclined to think if they came here they would just let us know.I dont see the point of all the sneaking about at night time,taking people from their beds then return them.
There has got to be life in other planets in the universe,it doesn't make sense for there not to be.They could be more advanced than us or just the same who knows.
As for governments coving up stuff I am not sure.Would it benefit them,maybe,or if they shared their knowledge it might make them more powerful.

I look at it this way....had there been life on mars or the moon, there would have been UFO's there, Alien craft, and alien life forms!
The UFO's had odd symbols on them....U.S.A.

[Corsair 115]

Check this out. I do not know the story behind it, but it is one of the most interesting videos I've seen. It's only 17 seconds long.
It could be a fake, but it would be the best fake I've ever seen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWYqHIN7Hb0&mode=related&search= My first guess as to what that video shows: a missile test that didn't go well. Note the bright flame of the exhaust and the smoke trail. That all screams missile.

[Corsair 115]

I've seen two craft that defy common known capabilities within 200 feet of me (combined distance, not at the same time) and one that I thought was a satellite in space until it stopped and started making a triangle pattern over and over. How did you determine it was 200 feet away from you? What criteria were involved?

Another one is a long story, but in short, it was about 50 feet up and 50 feet away from my brother and me and it was hovering.Same question as above.

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Devil's Advocate, I don't know what you saw or even what you think you saw, but as a non-experiencer and an "as-yet-to-be-convinced" sketpic I note that your report is one of many thousands. Not one of which is supported by any photographic evidence. Until I see some reasonable photographic evidence I shall remain unconvinced.

:(

[JQH]

Given what can be done with photoshop, I would like something considerably more convincing than a photograph.

[MG1962]

The "first guy who saw a UFO" was Kenneth Arnold. If you read his original report and compare it to descriptions of how pelicans fly when they migrate. -- which they were doing at that time and place -- you will find that what he saw were pelicans, The only issue is that he "saw" them "fly behind a mountain" from which he estimated their size and distance. This is explained in that they were lit from below by sunlight reflected from snow. When they entered the shadow of the mountain, they were no longer lit and seemed to disappear

Unfortunately this is incorrect - he saw and chased the reflection of his own instruments on his windscreen

[Devil's Advocate]

How did you determine it was 200 feet away from you? What criteria were involved?

Same question as above.

The 200ft would be the combined distance from the two.

On the saucer craft, I knew it was 50 feet because that is how far I had to keep the project car I was building from the mailbox as per rules in the neighborhood.
(Clutter and all that, it was a nice neighborhood)

The triangular one is an estimation, and with regard to both I stated 'about' (distance).
I could hit either craft with a rock easily. (Well, I would have had to lead the saucer craft quit a bit, but had it stopped, easy hit)
A way to get an idea of height is the use of a telephone pole.

You think it was a missile? I'm not saying you're wrong, but it would have had to have been a very tough missile to impact the ground that hard and bounce off with no apparent damage. At the two second mark, you can see the impact and the dirt fly up, and it trails quite a bit of it for a few seconds.
Plus, I cannot figure out why a missile would glow like that.
But, who knows? It's still interesting.




Gord_in_Toronto
I can respect that. I may not have believed it either had I not seen it for myself. Depending on who told me, because I trust a few people with my life.
But yeah, it was pretty wild.

[3bodyproblem]

I don't know why they (space creatures) want to deal soooo badly with the US government and its people (the gun thing of course). I mean, come on, Canada's right here guys. We will take anyone in and give em health care! We've got pretty good street cred as far as nations go too. You want fresh water? Hello, take lake Superior, no worries. You need Uranium to get home? We've got it (weapons grade if you want) Cows? No problem, some of them are mad as hell, but hey, whatever floats your boat (or hovers your saucer). You want to be left alone? Take Saskatchewan. Thinking of raising little Zorgons? We've got one of the best public education systems in the world. A lap dance? Montreal! Our dollar is climbing too you know, virtually par with the greenback these days. I mean when you consider everything Canada is really a prime destination spot. Canada: We put the EXTRA in Extraterrestrial!

[Viper Daimao]

this is all assuming that faster than light travel is even possible. There's been zero evidence to show that it is. This would make it virtually impossible for living creatures to visit us. It would more likely be some sort of automated probe that would make it out here, like voyager.

[Devil's Advocate]

Canada: We put the EXTRA in Extraterrestrial!

That made me LOL for real.
:D

But the U.S. is creating anti-matter, and that would be the fuel they would use. So they still have to come to us for a fill up. So, HA!
At the rate we're going, we should have 40 gallons worth in about 250,000,000,000 years!

[Devil's Advocate]

this is all assuming that faster than light travel is even possible. There's been zero evidence to show that it is. This would make it virtually impossible for living creatures to visit us. It would more likely be some sort of automated probe that would make it out here, like voyager.

No craft with mass ever will go the speed of light. You have to bend space, worm holes, etc.
Hyperdimensional quantum mechanics because it's fun, and all the cool kids are doing it.

[Revolutionary91]

Given what can be done with photoshop, I would like something considerably more convincing than a photograph.

Did you watch the video I posted?

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Unfortunately this is incorrect - he saw and chased the reflection of his own instruments on his windscreen

He didn't chase anything. To quote him saying what he saw:

"I was fascinated by this formation of aircraft. They didn't fly like any aircraft I had ever seen before. In the first place, their echelon formation was backward from that practiced by our Air Force. The elevation of the first craft was greater than that of the last. They flew in a definite formation, but erratically. As I described them at the time, their flight was like speed boats on rough water or similar to the tail of a Chinese kite that I once saw blowing in the wind. Or maybe it would be best to describe their flight characteristics as very similar to a formation of geese, in a rather diagonal chain-like line, as if they were linked together. As I put it to newsmen in Pendleton, Oregon, they flew like a saucer would if you skipped it across the water".

And:

"I observed it seemed to... the first craft was at a higher elevation than all the rest of craft, which, of course, is not conventional, military formation at all, in either this country or Russia or Germany or anything that I had ever heard of before. So I just assumed, in a flash, that they were some new type of military missile or jet and possibly remote controlled. They didn't fly like airplanes actually. This brilliant flash that came from their surfaces, which I assumed was from the sun reflection at first, would pulsate and they would flutter like this and sail and they seemed to fly just as readily on edge as they did on a level. As I mentioned before they seemed like they were linked together in a sort of diagonal chain-like formation, similar to geese, but, uh (chuckle) they were not geese. I was very puzzled about that. However, I made a special note, they were all independent. Individually they were flying on their own, but every once in a while one of them would give off a flash like this and gain a little more altitude or deviate just a little bit from the echelon formation. And this went periodically on among them... alternatingly, I should say, not in regular rhythm particularly among all the nine craft I was observing".

This does not appear to be anything like a description of "reflection of his own instruments on his windscreen". It is a very accurate description of American White Pelicans migrating.

See:
http://virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2000/jul/m03-004.shtml
for the complete analysis.

[Devil's Advocate]

Did you watch the video I posted?

I did. And it was good. I liked mine better because of all the classified documents that it showed.
:catfight:

[Björn Toulouse]

Are you trying to get my age out of me? lol

The Triangular craft was around 1991-1992. The Disk/Saucer was around 1993.

All of them in Georgia.
No military bases around the area's of the sightings.

The first was about 60 miles from Atlanta.
The second was about 80 miles from Atlanta.
The third was around 40 miles from Atlanta.



No, about the age thing. Sorry you entered your age in the post. All three of mine were in Georgia also, 40 years ago. One around Millen, one in Statesboro, the other was somewhere northwest of Statesboro. The "triangular" aspect is what intrigued me. Now mind you, I am an extreme skeptic these days. Most of the weird things that have happened to me in life, I have resolved so far - except for this. I can only relate what happened, but I will not interpret it. I'm busy right now. If this thread still has a heartbeat when I get back, maybe I can talk about it.

[Devil's Advocate]

No, about the age thing. Sorry you entered your age in the post. All three of mine were in Georgia also, 40 years ago. One around Millen, one in Statesboro, the other was somewhere northwest of Statesboro. The "triangular" aspect is what intrigued me. Now mind you, I am an extreme skeptic these days. Most of the weird things that have happened to me in life, I have resolved so far - except for this. I can only relate what happened, but I will not interpret it. I'm busy right now. If this thread still has a heartbeat when I get back, maybe I can talk about it.

Well shoot it to me in mail if you want. I'd like to hear it.

[Revolutionary91]

I did. And it was good. I liked mine better because of all the classified documents that it showed.
:catfight:

Yes yours was good. I just thought mine was so credible in terms of witness testimony.

[Devil's Advocate]

Yes yours was good. I just thought mine was so credible in terms of witness testimony.

Man, if I had a rubber hose I would beat the....:D j/k
Oh yeah? Well my witnesses were Astronauts and people with this highest National Security clearance! Guys in control of nuclear missiles!
So HA!
I win!
:cool:

What did you have? Pilots. Pfffttt.....fly boys....
J/K!
:boxedin:

[Revolutionary91]

Man, if I had a rubber hose I would beat the....:D j/k
Oh yeah? Well my witnesses were Astronauts and people with this highest National Security clearance! Guys in control of nuclear missiles!
So HA!
I win!
:cool:

What did you have? Pilots. Pfffttt.....fly boys....
J/K!
:boxedin:

Mine had astronauts. Oh, and my dad is bigger than your dad.:D

Its just that the usual documentaries show some backwoods people who claim to see ufos with no verification. Both our docs were irrefutable in terms of eyewitnesses.

[DGM]

Yes yours was good. I just thought mine was so credible in terms of witness testimony.
There will all ways be sightings that can't be identified. I think what JQH meant was alien space craft. I would need face to face no question for that myself. Distances between planets/galaxy's way to much

[Civilized Worm]

I believe in unidentified flying objects. I believe that there are flying objects that we have been unable to properly identify. I do not believe that they must therefore be alien spacecraft.

[Undesired Walrus]

automated probe that would make it out here, like voyager.

Wasn't that lost in the Delta Quadrant the last I checked?:)

[Whiplash]

Didn't you hear? They (and Tuvok!) finally got home!! Little Donnie was said to be escstatic.

(for those that don't get the reference, refer to the trivia section of the Tuvok Wikipedia Page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuvok))

[Wolverine]

Thoughts on the topic?

Apostrophes (http://www.apostrophe.fsnet.co.uk/) should not be used to denote plurals.

[Stellafane]

Anecdotes about UFOs are absolutely fascinating, and I love to hear about them. But as proof of UFO existence, they're utterly worthless without corroborating evidence. And UFOs have never, ever been able to offer any, not so much as one microscopic piece off one lousy ship. Think of it: even something as ephemeral as dreaming produces tangible evidence of its reality -- EKGs, eye movements and so on. Dreaming is the epitome of the unreal ("the stuff dreams are made of" and all that), but it can nonetheless be proven real through observable and repeatable evidence. But not UFOs for some reason.

And lest you think I doubt your veracity, please let me assure you I don't. However, eyewitness testimony, especially when viewing phenomena with which the observer is not familiar, is notoriously unreliable. I vividly recall the time a friend of mine and I were looking at a garden-variety satellite in the evening sky. "Look at it!" he exlaimed exitedly. "It's turning left! Now right! NOW IT'S STANDING STILL!! What is that thing???" But it was doing nothing of the sort. I was standing right next to him, and the satellite was simply doing what satellites do, politely moving in a straight line from horizon to horizon, at constant speed. But obviously my friend wasn't lying. As an inexperienced observer, he was just honestly misinterpreting what he saw (in this case, probably unconscious eye and head movements that made the object's flight appear erratic) and abscribing it to the satellite.

UFO reports are like that. Plenty of people seeing all kinds of odd things, but nothing -- nothing -- that you can hold in your hand. And considering all the other obstacles that would have to be overcome to accept UFOs as real (and they are myriad), we'll have to do far better than that before I consider them even a remote possibility.

[Corsair 115]

On the saucer craft, I knew it was 50 feet because that is how far I had to keep the project car I was building from the mailbox as per rules in the neighborhood. I don't quite see how that connects with determining, with any degree of certainty, the size and distance to an object in the sky, unless that object came down to a few feet off the ground and obscured whatever was past the 50 foot mark.

I could hit either craft with a rock easily. Again, how can you be sure? What criteria allow you to be so certain?

A way to get an idea of height is the use of a telephone pole. That doesn't help with distance though, unless it is in front of the telephone pole. The actual height of the object will depend greatly on how far away it is.

You think it was a missile? I'm not saying you're wrong, but it would have had to have been a very tough missile to impact the ground that hard and bounce off with no apparent damage. Depends on the angle at which it contacts the ground. The first impact is at a lower angle at which it could bounce off the ground. There isn't all that much to break in a simple, solid-fuelled rocket; as long as the engine puts out enough thrust to get it airborne it'll keep going.

Plus, I cannot figure out why a missile would glow like that. That's the exhaust flame. The missile body itself is either too small or didn't contrast enough against the background to show up easily given the low resolution of the video.

[Travis]

In the 40's and 50's the spacecraft were saucers and the aliens were green and reptilian. Move onto the 80's to present and the spacecraft become cigar shaped and the aliens are now gray and small with big eyes.

Whatever happened to the saucers with reptiles in them? Did the gray aliens in cigars wipe them out? Did they arrange some treaty where the gray ones now have claim to research and terrorize Earth?

And talk about a change in temperament. The old reptiles just wanted to say "hi" and sometimes take humans to Venus (at least until is was revealed to be uninhabitable) or Mars (until it too was revealed to be uninhabitable) and interbreed with promises of sharing knowledge. The new gray ones are viscous and sadistic; abducting, probing orifices and wiping out memories on helpless victims. All of it for no discernible logical reason either.

I want the reptiles in saucers back! Who's with me on this?

[Travis]

By the way, I think it's hilarious that people think this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wNVH-bgIuxI&NR=1) is a UFO crash.

I mean listen to the audio. That should have been the first clue as to what it really is.

[DragonLady]

Serious question here:

If a UFO did show up -absolutely proving the existenceo of extraterrestrial life forms, what would we do? What would the government do?

Would we exploit them militarily as potential "threats" and use them as an excuse to double our defenses and build nastier weapons than what we have?

If we established we could, would we slaughter them like the American Indians and take away their lands? Would we send in our social workers and Red Cross overseers and start telling them what they're doing wrong? Would we give them the "good news" of our constitution and the American dream? Would we let them do similiar to us?

Honestly, I think if there's intelligent life out there, it would be smart to stay hidden. :(

[MG1962]

In the 40's and 50's the spacecraft were saucers and the aliens were green and reptilian. Move onto the 80's to present and the spacecraft become cigar shaped and the aliens are now gray and small with big eyes.

Whatever happened to the saucers with reptiles in them? Did the gray aliens in cigars wipe them out? Did they arrange some treaty where the gray ones now have claim to research and terrorize Earth?


Actually the prefered shape of craft was always a 50/50 split between saucer and cigar, with a few exotics thrown in. As for the demise of little green reptilan men and the rise of the Greys. 6 Words

Close Encounters Of The Third Kind

[Travis]

Actually the prefered shape of craft was always a 50/50 split between saucer and cigar, with a few exotics thrown in. As for the demise of little green reptilan men and the rise of the Greys. 6 Words

Close Encounters Of The Third Kind

That's essentially my point. UFO and alien encounter descriptions have changed over time to reflect a social zeitgeist. What appeared in comics, movies and TV is what people described and as the fictional depictions changed so too, not coincidentally, did the descriptions of the so called "real encounters."

[MG1962]

That's essentially my point. UFO and alien encounter descriptions have changed over time to reflect a social zeitgeist. What appeared in comics, movies and TV is what people described and as the fictional depictions changed so too, not coincidentally, did the descriptions of the so called "real encounters."

If you research backwards you find it interesting how UFOs have always remained one level of technology above us. Through the 1880s onwards. The majority of UFO sightings where very zeppelin in appearence. When we got zeppelins, they got faster ones, then other heavier than air devices

Personally i have always thought UFOs to be the modern man's witches and occult happenings

[Whiplash]

In the 40's and 50's the spacecraft were saucers and the aliens were green and reptilian. Move onto the 80's to present and the spacecraft become cigar shaped and the aliens are now gray and small with big eyes.

Whatever happened to the saucers with reptiles in them? Did the gray aliens in cigars wipe them out? Did they arrange some treaty where the gray ones now have claim to research and terrorize Earth?

Oh there's plenty of woo on that subject. I can't think of any specific books, but I've heard endless parades of guests on Coast to Coast who know the whole thing. There is quite a dynamic relationship between them all as I remember ;)

[RecoveringYuppy]

I doubt any decent-sized object could even pass through our solar system without being detected.
What's decent sized? We're still not done finding Earth crossing asteroids nearly a mile across. I think the situation is that anything under a mile passing through our solar system just once is virtually guaranteed to be missed.

[steve s]

The idea that an extra-terrestrial object would be missed by all the radar, tracking stations, and telescopes in the world, and spotted by some guy wandering around his backyard, is just plain silly.


[CT mode]They've obviously perfected stealth technology which prevents our radar from detecting them. They don't want to be seen by us. That's why they always cover their ships in dozens of bright flashing lights.[/CT mode.]

Steve S.

[Travis]

If you research backwards you find it interesting how UFOs have always remained one level of technology above us. Through the 1880s onwards. The majority of UFO sightings where very zeppelin in appearence. When we got zeppelins, they got faster ones, then other heavier than air devices

Personally i have always thought UFOs to be the modern man's witches and occult happenings

It sounds like we both believe the same thing then. Back when I was a wide eyed adolescent that believed anything that was weird (UFOs, Bigfoot etc) my research led me down the road to noticing this pattern. My skeptic side kicked in and this phenomenon of alien and spacecraft descriptions that changed to match contemporaneous mass media was essentially the death of my belief in weird things. All before the age of 15.

[Travis]

Oh there's plenty of woo on that subject. I can't think of any specific books, but I've heard endless parades of guests on Coast to Coast who know the whole thing. There is quite a dynamic relationship between them all as I remember ;)

Uh oh. WE'RE ALL DOOMED!!

I have a friend that guards a lumber mill at night and listens to C2C almost religiously, I'll have to see if he's heard of it.

[Whiplash]

Some of the things I remember.. some people would say the Repitles are at war with the Greys.. Others said that the Reptiles were the overlords of the Greys.. Quite a few who said the Reptilian aliens are actually from earth, evolved from Dinosaurs, living deep in the earth.. As you can imagine, not a whole lot of common ground (just like truther theories!)

[Travis]

Some of the things I remember.. some people would say the Repitles are at war with the Greys.. Others said that the Reptiles were the overlords of the Greys.. Quite a few who said the Reptilian aliens are actually from earth, evolved from Dinosaurs, living deep in the earth.. As you can imagine, not a whole lot of common ground (just like truther theories!)

That's equal parts hilarious and sad. Wow.

[Devil's Advocate]

[CT mode]They've obviously perfected stealth technology which prevents our radar from detecting them. They don't want to be seen by us. That's why they always cover their ships in dozens of bright flashing lights.[/CT mode.]

Steve S.

We can make a craft almost undetectable to radar now. Why is that such a hard thing to believe?
For theoretical means, you could 'shield' a craft in plasma and it would absorb electromagnetic waves.
It would return no radio waves because they would be absorbed. Thus making the craft invisible. (But not invisible to sight).
If a craft could change or cause an energy 'shell' that operated at 300 nm, then we would not be able to see it with our eyes, because it would be in the ultra violet spectrum of light. I have not looked into that, but I've heard it is possible in theory.

If we can think it, it would be logical to assume a more advanced civilization could have thought of it as well, and may have done it already.
If of course such an advanced civilization existed.

Then the distance problem is not a problem in theory using hyper- dimensional quantum mechanics. Worm holes, space bending, zero point energy for fuel, etc. So with known laws of physics, a space craft is theoretically possible.

[Dog Town]

If we can think it, it would be logical to assume a more advanced civilization could have thought of it as well, and may have done it already.
If of course such an advanced civilization existed.

Then the distance problem is not a problem in theory using hyper- dimensional quantum mechanics.

You do realise how LUCKY we have been? Surviving meteors etc...while advacing! I think radio waves of long forgotten civilizations would be seen! They would surely harness the easiest right, at some point ?Yet nada! What's wrong with us being, the most advaced planet for billions of galaxies! Delusions, or fantasy?

[Devil's Advocate]

You do realise how LUCKY we have been? Surviving meteors etc...while advacing! I think radio waves of long forgotten civilizations would be seen! They would surely harness the easiest right, at some point ?Yet nada! What's wrong with us being, the most advaced planet for billions of galaxies! Delusions, or fantasy?

How much of those waves could have been blocked by planetary bodies?
How long will it be before our radio waves reach our nearest star that is over 4 light years away, even if they are not blocked or deflected?

There are a lot of factors to consider.
What is wrong with us being the most advanced? Nothing is wrong with it.
But if the evidence to the contrary is indeed true, then it would prove we are not the most advanced. Us being or not being the most advanced does not matter to me one way or another.

[Dog Town]

How much of those waves could have been blocked by planetary bodies?
How long will it be before our radio waves reach our nearest star that is over 4 light years away, even if they are not blocked or deflected?

There are a lot of factors to consider.
What is wrong with us being the most advanced? Nothing is wrong with it.
But if the evidence to the contrary is indeed true, then it would prove we are not the most advanced. Us being or not being the most advanced does not matter to me one way or another.

Assuming advanced would be atleast thousands if not millions of years in an advanced state, I think we might have a clue.But hey...enjoy!

[Devil's Advocate]

Assuming advanced would be atleast thousands if not millions of years in an advanced state, I think we might have a clue.But hey...enjoy!

Of course, no matter what someone's opinion is, that is all you can say it is. Opinion. That is why you look and see if there is evidence.
So, with that in mind, what do you say with regard to classified documents that were released through the FOIA that say alien craft have been here?
Is it to be disregarded?
If so, why is it disregarded?

[Dog Town]

...<snip>
So, with that in mind, what do you say with regard to classified documents that were released through the FOIA that say alien craft have been here?
Is it to be disregarded?
If so, why is it disregarded?

I may not have read everything, but can I see these "classified doc's" that are released, you speak of?

[Devil's Advocate]

I may not have read everything, but can I see these "classified doc's" that are released, you speak of?

Watch the video linked in the OP.
They talk about the documents and the cases they pertain to.

[jimbob]

Not having read through all the UFO threads here, has anyone commented on the similarities between Alian/MIB rectal probes etc, and the medieval Incubus and Sucubus.

Seems like the same psychological effect, altered according to the peoples' ideas.

I saw an (in parts) fairly sober discussion about UFOs, and it mentioned that the CIA tried to use UFOs as a part of a cover story for their reconnaissance balloon operations. Ironically, almost the opposite of the theory proposed by "believers" in Roswell.

A small proportion of UFO sightings could come from similar projects, (did "wedges" become popular before or after the B2 was made public?)

Some small support for this idea is the fact that since the 1950's some UFO sightings seemed to have a performance that was just a few years ahead of the then current military aircraft, and the margin stayed the same, which would have been surprising (to say the least) for interstellar-capable alians, as this would mean that their atmospheric craft were developing at the same rate as the earthlings.

Anyway, the alians don't just perform rectal probes, they also make crop circles, unless you subscribe to the insane theory that crop circles have more to do with cider drinking...

[Dog Town]

Watch the video linked in the OP.
They talk about the documents and the cases they pertain to.

Yet I can't find any copies of these claims in the real world! Secret released doc's my bumm!

[Oliver]

Yet I can't find any copies of these claims in the real world! Secret released doc's my bumm!


I also would like to see these "documents". I'm still laughing about the secret "Nazi Ufos Documentary (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2776188113998872164&q=nazi+ufos+duration%3Along&total=43&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=1)" I saw some days ago. :D

[Devil's Advocate]

Yet I can't find any copies of these claims in the real world! Secret released doc's my bumm!

My point for referencing the video was for the case(s) involved so if you wanted to make a FOIA request on each case, you would have information on the cases you would be making a FOIA for.

Thought I find it all interesting, I have made no request.
Why? Because it does not really matter to me if alien life visits here or not.
If they do, I will not be allowed to study the craft anyway, so it does not matter to me.
I have theories on how such a craft could work, but if I could not examine the craft, then I would never know if the theories held up.

[gumboot]

I think it's important to distinguish between "UFOs" and "Alien Encounters".

UFO's are a very real phenomenon. After all, a UFO is simply an airbourne object that is not identified. Even putting aside the extremely mundane, there are still documented accounts of genuine mysterious flying "things". This doesn't mean they are extra terrestrial or supernatural, just that we genuinely cannot explain them.

As an example I would offer the December 1978 incident over the South Island of New Zealand. What was it that made the light? Well, we don't know. That's why it's a "UFO" sighting. Perhaps the official government investigation into the event would reveal the answer, but the report was labeled "Top Secret" and has never been released. Certainly the "official explanation" is lacking - if for no other reason than because it offers up multiple explanations - none of which really fit the accounts.

Of course, strange unexplained lights in the sky at night are a very far cry from gray-skinned aliens in flying saucers with rectal probes and ray guns. I think it's important to separate them.

As to why aliens would come here and not announce themselves? Ack! One must not violate the prime directive!

-Gumboot

[gumboot]

A small proportion of UFO sightings could come from similar projects, (did "wedges" become popular before or after the B2 was made public?)

Some small support for this idea is the fact that since the 1950's some UFO sightings seemed to have a performance that was just a few years ahead of the then current military aircraft, and the margin stayed the same, which would have been surprising (to say the least) for interstellar-capable alians, as this would mean that their atmospheric craft were developing at the same rate as the earthlings.



I think this is probably one of the most likely explanations for many sightings. The government would, of course, been happy for people to attribute test flights of their advanced aircraft to aliens. A good example is the Lockheed SR-71A Blackbird. This aircraft was designed, built, test flown, and put into operational service before the public ever knew about. There were a number of crashes during its development, which were obviously all very hush hush and closely guarded.

While many recent military aircraft projects such quite widely publicised, such as the F-22 and F-35, it seems likely that there are other "black" aircraft projects, such as the rumoured "Aurora" aircraft which supposedly was intended to replace the SR-71.

If we consider the unique shape of the B-2 Spirit, and the physics defying performance of the F-22, it's easy to see how someone might have confused such aircraft with alien space craft.

-Gumboot

[Devil's Advocate]

I think this is probably one of the most likely explanations for many sightings. The government would, of course, been happy for people to attribute test flights of their advanced aircraft to aliens. A good example is the Lockheed SR-71A Blackbird. This aircraft was designed, built, test flown, and put into operational service before the public ever knew about. There were a number of crashes during its development, which were obviously all very hush hush and closely guarded.

While many recent military aircraft projects such quite widely publicised, such as the F-22 and F-35, it seems likely that there are other "black" aircraft projects, such as the rumoured "Aurora" aircraft which supposedly was intended to replace the SR-71.

If we consider the unique shape of the B-2 Spirit, and the physics defying performance of the F-22, it's easy to see how someone might have confused such aircraft with alien space craft.

-Gumboot

I agree. That is why I made it clear that I did not know the origin of the ones I have seen.
They defy only what I know exist.
I am unaware of any craft we have that can fly or hover and remain completely silent. That of course does not make it alien.

[jimbob]

I am unaware of any craft we have that can fly or hover and remain completely silent. That of course does not make it alien.

Airship?

[Stellafane]

..I am unaware of any craft we have that can fly or hover and remain completely silent. That of course does not make it alien.

Balloon?

[jimbob]

Great minds obviously think alike...

It's 'cause I'm psychic...

[Stellafane]

How much of those waves could have been blocked by planetary bodies?

Vanishingly small, for all intents zero. Planetary bodies block almost none of the radiation we receive from space. The universe is very large; in comparison the space taken up by planetary bodies is utterly insignificant.

How long will it be before our radio waves reach our nearest star that is over 4 light years away, even if they are not blocked or deflected?

Since radio waves travel at the speed of light, then by definition this took four years. Thus, we were detectable from Alpha Centauri sometime by the late 1920's. Our radio "shell" is approximately 85 years in radius at the moment, and expanding at the speed of light. A more advanced civilization, say on 1000 years ahead of us technologically, should in theory be detectable via radio waves from 1000 light years away.

What is wrong with us being the most advanced? Nothing is wrong with it. But if the evidence to the contrary is indeed true, then it would prove we are not the most advanced. Us being or not being the most advanced does not matter to me one way or another.

Key word: evidence. None exists.

[Kahalachan]

Of course I'd like to believe that there are aliens out there who can show us humans we are really not that great, but you have to wonder why they simply shove a stick up our arse and then are on their way.

Simply speculation with no evidence to back up, but I really have a hard time believing that the US would cover up proof of aliens.

Interesting point: The first guy who saw a UFO was in a plane and said it 'skipped across the sky like a saucer'. Bear in mind, it wasn't a saucer shape.

But what did people start to 'see'? Saucers.

Glad we finally have a UFO thread.

This sparked my curiousity. So I googled and Wikipediad.

The first UFO account described by Kenneth Arnold was "boomerang-shaped" flying objects that moved erratically across the sky, "like a saucer would if you skipped it across water."

Wikipedia has this picture.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/d5/Arnold_crescent_1947.jpg


This makes more sense. It's aerodynamic, not like a saucer, and it wasn't influenced by the press.

Was it an alien wanting to anally probe humans? Or maybe top secret military aircraft? Look familiar?


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/47/B-2_Spirit_original.jpg/800px-B-2_Spirit_original.jpg

Edit To Add: This is an interesting link on German aircraft design in WWII

http://www.century-of-flight.freeola.com/new%20site/frames/horten%20frame.htm

It seems after WWII America adopted this design and eventually developped stealth technology. So it's not aliens, but Nazis that are responsible for UFOs ;)

[Pardalis]

Aliens are stupid. If hovering around some areas for no freaking reason only to be spotted by a couple of people are the best they can do, then they are the biggest dolts in the galaxy.

UFO's? Come on!:rolleyes:

[Devil's Advocate]

Vanishingly small, for all intents zero. Planetary bodies block almost none of the radiation we receive from space. The universe is very large; in comparison the space taken up by planetary bodies is utterly insignificant.
Since radio waves travel at the speed of light, then by definition this took four years. Thus, we were detectable from Alpha Centauri sometime by the late 1920's. Our radio "shell" is approximately 85 years in radius at the moment, and expanding at the speed of light. A more advanced civilization, say on 1000 years ahead of us technologically, should in theory be detectable via radio waves from 1000 light years away.

Are you implying that radio waves would not reflect off planetary bodies?
The U.S. Army Signal Corps used our moon as a natural passive reflector in the mid-40's.


Reply to regarding the balloon and airships...a low flying airship can easily be heard. Neither could have followed a car at 55mph, nor could any match the speed of the craft that flew over my driveway.

[Stellafane]

We can make a craft almost undetectable to radar now. Why is that such a hard thing to believe?

The point wasn't that it couldn't be done, the point is why bother doing so when you then light up your craft like Las Vegas billboad for all to see?

For theoretical means, you could 'shield' a craft in plasma and it would absorb electromagnetic waves.
It would return no radio waves because they would be absorbed. Thus making the craft invisible. (But not invisible to sight).
If a craft could change or cause an energy 'shell' that operated at 300 nm, then we would not be able to see it with our eyes, because it would be in the ultra violet spectrum of light. I have not looked into that, but I've heard it is possible in theory.

Whether or not all this could be done, it would still not mask the reality of a UFO's presence. An object of the size and speed being reported would cause atmospheric effects such as strong winds and shattering sonic booms. It would blot out background stars. It would potentially leave its fingerprints in other regions of the electromagnetic spectrum. It would leave heat signatures. Et cetera. Unless you can simply pop in and out of reality itself, there's no way to completely hide a large, speeding object in today's skies.


...Then the distance problem is not a problem in theory using hyper- dimensional quantum mechanics. Worm holes, space bending, zero point energy for fuel, etc. So with known laws of physics, a space craft is theoretically possible.

Depends on the theory. Remember, only some theories allow for these things, others say they're absolutely impossible. That's why today's theory may or may not be tomorrow's reality. And in any case, theory is all well and fine, but proves nothing until good 'ol evidence shows up.

As an aside, I was once on a radio show with the late J. Allan Hynek, the famous UFO researcher. (He coined the phrase "close encounter of the third kind" and actually had a bit part in the movie.) I asked him why UFO inhabitants seem so at home here in Earth. His reply surprised me a little -- he confessed that he no longer thought that UFOs were extra-terrestial! Instead, he had come to believe that they were from a parellel universe, or maybe the future. I always found it interesting that in the end, perhaps the most respected UFO researcher ever came to the conclusion that they did not come from another planet.

[Pardalis]

By the way, I think it's hilarious that people think this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wNVH-bgIuxI&NR=1) is a UFO crash.

I see the "aliens" have perfected their saucer technology. :D

[Alareth]

It is my personal belief that it is simply statistically impossible that life only exists on this planet.

That does not imply that other life is more or less advanced than we are and has the capability to travel here. Just that it is out there.

[RecoveringYuppy]

@Devil's Advocate.

He's not implying that. He's saying the planets are a very small part of the sky. And, I'd add, they move. So what little part they do block is never the same.

[Pardalis]

It is my personal belief that it is simply statistically impossible that life only exists on this planet.

That does not imply that other life is more or less advanced than we are and has the capability to travel here. Just that it is out there.

Exactly, it's frustrating when the UFO fanatics keep confusing the two issues. It's like the creationist confusing abiogenesis and evolution.

[Devil's Advocate]

This sparked my curiousity. So I googled and Wikipediad.

The first UFO account described by Kenneth Arnold was "boomerang-shaped" flying objects that moved erratically across the sky, "like a saucer would if you skipped it across water."

Wikipedia has this picture.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/d5/Arnold_crescent_1947.jpg


This makes more sense. It's aerodynamic, not like a saucer, and it wasn't influenced by the press.

Was it an alien wanting to anally probe humans? Or maybe top secret military aircraft? Look familiar?


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/47/B-2_Spirit_original.jpg/800px-B-2_Spirit_original.jpg

The U.S. model from the 50's.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4a/YB49-2_300.jpg

[Björn Toulouse]

I agree. That is why I made it clear that I did not know the origin of the ones I have seen.
They defy only what I know exist.
I am unaware of any craft we have that can fly or hover and remain completely silent. That of course does not make it alien.


Here is my story, D.A.


As a teenager, I became interested in what we referred to as UAO's (Unidentified Aerial Objects) as opposed to UFO's, as if there were some intellectual levels about the subject. They did not necessarily "fly", but they were in the air. Presumably, the ones that were reported to have been in the ocean or lakes got there from the air originally.

OK, I was a buff - I was a member of NICAP (National Investigative Committee on Aerial Phenomena) headed by Major Daniel Keyhoe in the mid 60's. Flying saucers were big news then. What you did was pay your dues, you got a periodical newsletter and instructions on how to search for UAO's and how to behave when confronted with same. I carried a camera around but lost interest after I went to college. I never read the Adamski books. The only brief interest I had in abduction stories or "citizen-ride-along" like Adamski was the Betty and Barney Hill story, but I dismissed that as being too fantastic later.

The Wednesday before Thanksgiving 1966 my brother and father drove to Statesboro to pick me up from college and take me home for the holidays. My father had this enormous land yacht of a car that had a windsheild that curved upward further than the average car. My brother was driving, I was in the front passenger seat, Dad in the rear. I was having some issues with both so the trip home was mostly silent. I was just looking at the night sky, which was very clear and starry. Somewhere out of Statesboro, a bright light passed directly overhead and low - I am not an astronomer, but I had been a stargazer long enough to know the difference between a star, a "falling star", or conventional commercial aircraft. I grew up and still lived 2 miles from the Atlanta Airport (Hartsfield). This light flew so suddenly overhead and low and was immediately overtaken by a second similar light that caught up to it and both banked to the left and disappeared in the treeline/horizon ahead. These were not meteors. These lights were flying low. These were not small lights. If they were flying at regular altitudes, they would have had to have been enormous crafts by the size of the lights and could not have disappeared in the distance as quickly as they did. My brother never said a word so I did not bring it up. It was curious but not that big of a deal.

February 7, 1967, a group of 5 of us ventured north from the college to attend a high school basketball game near Athens. It was after midnight that we were returning back to Statesboro on a southerly route. I was sitting in the middle of the backseat with my head leaning back and peering into the black country sky that seemed to be filled with stars. I was searching the air for UAO's. NICAP had said to watch for lights moving east to west. I was looking to my left when a bright light caught my eye in the distance and it was moving westward at a 90 degree angle to our route. Despite the speed of the car, I was able to focus on this light and noticed that the surrounding stars were blacked out momentarily around it while it moved as if obstructed. I had already told the guys that I would be looking for something in the sky and shouted for the driver to stop. It was a state route, but we were the only ones on the road there. We stopped in the middle of the road and all 5 of us got out and shut off the motor, leaving the doors open. We were just watching this light continue on its path towards us. There was absolute quiet with no other ground lights around. At one point a dog barking in the distance was the only noise except for a whispered comment or two from one of us. I estimate we stood there at least 5 minutes total, maybe more, because one of the guys crossed a ditch to a fence and took a leak and then came back to watch the light. Within a minute or two, the object passed overhead, but instead of continuing its silent path, it stalled above us. Now all of us are looking straight up above the car. The light was directly above, still no noise. Then the white light seemed to grow larger and larger. Then the edges of the light came more sharply into focus and I could clearly see a triangular shape - the light, that is. It was as if the cover of a bank of fluorescent ceiling lights was shaped like a triangle. I said, "the thing's getting bigger", but one of the others said, "Hell no, it's getting CLOSER. It's coming down!" At this point, we all panicked and dove into the car and sped on down the road. Looking behind us we could now see the light moving back eastward, not to the west as it had been. It still appeared to move slowly by our perspective but it had to have been moving faster than us because although it was further away than before, now it caught up with and seemed to be cruising parallel to us. I understand that no road is perfectly straight and that's why a stationary object like the moon can appear to change positions, but 4 of us were watching this thing. It never got ahead of us and it never came towards us again. About 10 minutes after we had fled, the white light changed gradually to red in a few seconds, and disappeared, not zipping away, but just vanished like when you turn out a light. How close was it when we were standing in the road? No idea. To demonstrate, I would hold my hands above my head, touch my thumbs together and my index fingers together to form a triangle and say that's how big it looked before I caved. We never reported it.

Exactly 2 weeks later on the 21st, I seemed to be the only one interested in rehashing that night. It was just beginning to get dark. Three of us were walking to the edge of the campus where our P.O. boxes and a Dairy Queen were located. Bob had been one of the 5 in the car. He was with me and another guy and I was re-telling the tale to this third guy, using Bob as a witness. Actually by this time, the other 3 that had been in the car wanted me to just STFU about it but I couldn't let it go. We were standing at a traffic light across the street from a store on the opposite corner and I was right in the middle of talking about it. Behind the store was a small stand of trees. Directly across the crosswalk on that corner was a similar stand of trees. Behind those, less than 50 feet away, was the large parking area that had the Post Office and DQ. There was a sudden rush of wind. The noise of wind came from the left. We could clearly see a maybe 40 foot long "craft" of some kind whooshing by at what was maybe 40-50 miles per hour, above and behind the corner store and behind, but not higher than, the stand of trees. There was no engine sound, only the rush of wind, and what sounded like something metal flapping against something metal. There were sections of light on the side we could see that did not look like running lights, but gave the impression of a row of windows with the visible light coming from within. I ran across the street past the trees and into the open parking area and stood directly behind the path of this thing as it moved away. The parking area bordered a large field that had few trees and the thing was now moving over it. One of the other guys reached the parking area and was behind me. From this perspective, all we could see was a an object moving away from us in a straight line. Just as quickly, this object appeared to suddenly move up 90 degrees for a second, then back down 90 degrees to the same path it had been on and continued to move straight away from us. It repeated this same manoeuver twice more, until it was too far away to be visible. Each of the 3 times it did that, bits of light that looked like flames shot out of it and sprinkled down on the downturn, but faded before they got to the ground.

I was 18 years old and did not drink or use drugs, and neither did any of the witnesses to this "shared hallucination." There were no photos, no abductions, no slot-mouth, no eared, bobblehead short people - nothing whatsoever left behind to hold in my hand.

OK, I finally talked about it on JREF. Somebody offer an opinion. I'm not going to interpret it as a whole. Obviously some of the details I provided involve a bit of interpretation for purposes of description. I remember it well because I have written it down many times and for a long time afterwards I couldn't STFU about it.

[Stellafane]

Are you implying that radio waves would not reflect off planetary bodies?
The U.S. Army Signal Corps used our moon as a natural passive reflector in the mid-40's.

No, I'm not implying that at all. What I am saying is that the space taken up by planetary bodies within the universe is for all intents and purposes nil, so the idea that they're somehow preventing alien radio waves from reaching us makes no sense. Consider this: we have an anomalously large and close planetary body (the moon) blocking out a relatively large chunk of sky, far more than all the other objects in the solar system combined. But the amount of radiation blocked by the moon is insignificant compared to the overall total we receive.

Reply to regarding the balloon and airships...a low flying airship can easily be heard. Neither could have followed a car at 55mph, nor could any match the speed of the craft that flew over my driveway.

The problem is, it may not have actually matched the speed of your car, or did the other things you observed. Instead, those phenomena may have been caused by observational effects and conditions within and around you, rather than the object itself. For example, an airplane with a single light flying directly overhead will often appear to approach at a fast speed, slow down and/or hover right above you for a few moments, then speed off. Most airplanes can't really do that, of course. But the effect is caused by visual tricks played by the viewer's eyes and brain, not the airplane itself. Many UFO sightings are the products of just such observational artifacts.

[Kahalachan]

The U.S. model from the 50's.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4a/YB49-2_300.jpg

That's awesome. Thanks. :D

I think we can offically say RIP to flying saucer ideas.

Edit: Although it's unfortunate most other people won't.

[Civilized Worm]

Anyway, the alians don't just perform rectal probes, they also make crop circles, unless you subscribe to the insane theory that crop circles have more to do with cider drinking...


Cider drinking can explain just about any bizarre phenomenon you can think of. And if you disagree you've clearly been drinking the wrong cider.

[Devil's Advocate]

No, I'm not implying that at all. What I am saying is that the space taken up by planetary bodies within the universe is for all intents and purposes nil, so the idea that they're somehow preventing alien radio waves from reaching us makes no sense. Consider this: we have an anomalously large and close planetary body (the moon) blocking out a relatively large chunk of sky, far more than all the other objects in the solar system combined. But the amount of radiation blocked by the moon is insignificant compared to the overall total we receive.

I understand. But it still is speculative. What if the alien's had a planetary body like out moon blocking a line to earth? There could be a lot of reasons we would get no signals (if there were any) to consider.


The problem is, it may not have actually matched the speed of your car, or did the other things you observed. Instead, those phenomena may have been caused by observational effects and conditions within and around you, rather than the object itself. For example, an airplane with a single light flying directly overhead will often appear to approach at a fast speed, slow down and/or hover right above you for a few moments, then speed off. Most airplanes can't really do that, of course. But the effect is caused by visual tricks played by the viewer's eyes and brain, not the airplane itself. Many UFO sightings are the products of just such observational artifacts.

Oh I am aware of that, but the part of that story, the object was following us, and went ahead out of sight, then a few minutes later was hovering over a church. The church was a small one story structure with a steeple that was about a third of length of the church building.
There were tree's all around the church and it's parking lot.
The object was just to the left of the steeple, but not above the tree line.
It was very low.

[grmcdorman]

I understand. But it still is speculative. What if the alien's had a planetary body like out moon blocking a line to earth? There could be a lot of reasons we would get no signals (if there were any) to consider.What?? Apparently you haven't considered orbits. No body in space - planet, moon, star, whatever - is at rest. Moons, in particular, orbit. In fact, astronomers take advantage of that to do various measurements, when a solar system body passes in front of a star. It's called occultation.

About the only thing I can think of, on this basis, is a a star being on the direct line-of-sight to another system. However, it's not very likely - most of space is empty - and even then, there's both the orbital motion of the presumed aliens' planet, and the fact that some of the signal would bend around the star.

A dust cloud or other nebula is much more likely. Even then, such obscurations are usually transparent in the radio wavelengths (that's how astronomers observe the galactic centre, mostly).

Regardless, this sort of argument only works if life is very rare and all such life is obscured from us. Given the vast number of stars that are visible, it would take an astronomically low probability for advanced civilizations for all such to be obscured from us at all wavelengths.

ETA: Even for a star in our line of sight, this would change (gradually) over time, too, due to the motion of the three stars involved - ours, the "blocking" star, and the aliens' star.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Generic UFO talk belongs over in General Skepticism and the Paranormal.

[grmcdorman]

Generic UFO talk belongs over in General Skepticism and the Paranormal.It's a conspiracy, I tells ya! Making us move over there!

:D

[Gord_in_Toronto]

I think it's important to distinguish between "UFOs" and "Alien Encounters".

UFO's are a very real phenomenon. After all, a UFO is simply an airbourne object that is not identified. Even putting aside the extremely mundane, there are still documented accounts of genuine mysterious flying "things". This doesn't mean they are extra terrestrial or supernatural, just that we genuinely cannot explain them.

As an example I would offer the December 1978 incident over the South Island of New Zealand. What was it that made the light? Well, we don't know. That's why it's a "UFO" sighting. Perhaps the official government investigation into the event would reveal the answer, but the report was labeled "Top Secret" and has never been released. Certainly the "official explanation" is lacking - if for no other reason than because it offers up multiple explanations - none of which really fit the accounts.

Of course, strange unexplained lights in the sky at night are a very far cry from gray-skinned aliens in flying saucers with rectal probes and ray guns. I think it's important to separate them.

As to why aliens would come here and not announce themselves? Ack! One must not violate the prime directive!

-Gumboot

I know the True Believer UFOgists reject the explanation that the lights were those of shrimp boats. However, the blobs of light filmed would have resolved into something else if the cameraman had simply focused his camera at say infinity rather than the few feet it most definitely is. Many UFO photos are similar out of focus blurry blobs. :boggled:

[Gord_in_Toronto]

This sparked my curiousity. So I googled and Wikipediad.

The first UFO account described by Kenneth Arnold was "boomerang-shaped" flying objects that moved erratically across the sky, "like a saucer would if you skipped it across water."

Wikipedia has this picture.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/d5/Arnold_crescent_1947.jpg


This makes more sense. It's aerodynamic, not like a saucer, and it wasn't influenced by the press.

Was it an alien wanting to anally probe humans? Or maybe top secret military aircraft? Look familiar?


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/47/B-2_Spirit_original.jpg/800px-B-2_Spirit_original.jpg

Edit To Add: This is an interesting link on German aircraft design in WWII

http://www.century-of-flight.freeola.com/new%20site/frames/horten%20frame.htm

It seems after WWII America adopted this design and eventually developped stealth technology. So it's not aliens, but Nazis that are responsible for UFOs ;)

Do some more Gooling. The paper at the URL I posted earlier pretty much proves what Arnold saw were Pelicans. His description is exactly that of Pelicans. :mad:

[Corsair 115]

The U.S. model from the 50's.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4a/YB49-2_300.jpgEven back then the design's stealthy characteristics were noted. But the lack of fly-by-wire capability meant that the flying wing shape was very difficult for a pilot to manually control (there's a reason why the vertical stabilizer on aircraft are large) so further development of the YB-49 was abandoned.

The aircraft did get a guest starring appearance in the 1953 movie version of War of the Worlds when it came in and dropped an atomic bomb on the first Martian cylinder.

[steve s]

The U.S. model from the 50's.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4a/YB49-2_300.jpg

Don't forget the Northrop N9M-B (a smaller fighter version of the YB49.)
http://www.mucheswarbirds.com/N9MBart.html

It looks remarkably similar to the boomerang-shaped UFO that Kahalachan posted.

Steve S.

[portlandatheist]

I have a question for the hard core physicists out there:
If an alien civilization broadcast a signal at say 10000 Watts at say 10 light years away(for the sake or round numbers), using the Poynting Vector (the decrease in wattage as a function of distance) would we, even in theory, be able to detect such a weak signal? I don't know how weak of a signal SETI can detect and haven't crunched any numbers but it seems to me that such a signal would come across as nothing more than virtually undetectable background noise.

[Devil's Advocate]

Here is my story, D.A.


As a teenager, I became interested in what we referred to as UAO's (Unidentified Aerial Objects) as opposed to UFO's, as if there were some intellectual levels about the subject. They did not necessarily "fly", but they were in the air. Presumably, the ones that were reported to have been in the ocean or lakes got there from the air originally.

OK, I was a buff - I was a member of NICAP (National Investigative Committee on Aerial Phenomena) headed by Major Daniel Keyhoe in the mid 60's. Flying saucers were big news then. What you did was pay your dues, you got a periodical newsletter and instructions on how to search for UAO's and how to behave when confronted with same. I carried a camera around but lost interest after I went to college. I never read the Adamski books. The only brief interest I had in abduction stories or "citizen-ride-along" like Adamski was the Betty and Barney Hill story, but I dismissed that as being too fantastic later.

The Wednesday before Thanksgiving 1966 my brother and father drove to Statesboro to pick me up from college and take me home for the holidays. My father had this enormous land yacht of a car that had a windsheild that curved upward further than the average car. My brother was driving, I was in the front passenger seat, Dad in the rear. I was having some issues with both so the trip home was mostly silent. I was just looking at the night sky, which was very clear and starry. Somewhere out of Statesboro, a bright light passed directly overhead and low - I am not an astronomer, but I had been a stargazer long enough to know the difference between a star, a "falling star", or conventional commercial aircraft. I grew up and still lived 2 miles from the Atlanta Airport (Hartsfield). This light flew so suddenly overhead and low and was immediately overtaken by a second similar light that caught up to it and both banked to the left and disappeared in the treeline/horizon ahead. These were not meteors. These lights were flying low. These were not small lights. If they were flying at regular altitudes, they would have had to have been enormous crafts by the size of the lights and could not have disappeared in the distance as quickly as they did. My brother never said a word so I did not bring it up. It was curious but not that big of a deal.

February 7, 1967, a group of 5 of us ventured north from the college to attend a high school basketball game near Athens. It was after midnight that we were returning back to Statesboro on a southerly route. I was sitting in the middle of the backseat with my head leaning back and peering into the black country sky that seemed to be filled with stars. I was searching the air for UAO's. NICAP had said to watch for lights moving east to west. I was looking to my left when a bright light caught my eye in the distance and it was moving westward at a 90 degree angle to our route. Despite the speed of the car, I was able to focus on this light and noticed that the surrounding stars were blacked out momentarily around it while it moved as if obstructed. I had already told the guys that I would be looking for something in the sky and shouted for the driver to stop. It was a state route, but we were the only ones on the road there. We stopped in the middle of the road and all 5 of us got out and shut off the motor, leaving the doors open. We were just watching this light continue on its path towards us. There was absolute quiet with no other ground lights around. At one point a dog barking in the distance was the only noise except for a whispered comment or two from one of us. I estimate we stood there at least 5 minutes total, maybe more, because one of the guys crossed a ditch to a fence and took a leak and then came back to watch the light. Within a minute or two, the object passed overhead, but instead of continuing its silent path, it stalled above us. Now all of us are looking straight up above the car. The light was directly above, still no noise. Then the white light seemed to grow larger and larger. Then the edges of the light came more sharply into focus and I could clearly see a triangular shape - the light, that is. It was as if the cover of a bank of fluorescent ceiling lights was shaped like a triangle. I said, "the thing's getting bigger", but one of the others said, "Hell no, it's getting CLOSER. It's coming down!" At this point, we all panicked and dove into the car and sped on down the road. Looking behind us we could now see the light moving back eastward, not to the west as it had been. It still appeared to move slowly by our perspective but it had to have been moving faster than us because although it was further away than before, now it caught up with and seemed to be cruising parallel to us. I understand that no road is perfectly straight and that's why a stationary object like the moon can appear to change positions, but 4 of us were watching this thing. It never got ahead of us and it never came towards us again. About 10 minutes after we had fled, the white light changed gradually to red in a few seconds, and disappeared, not zipping away, but just vanished like when you turn out a light. How close was it when we were standing in the road? No idea. To demonstrate, I would hold my hands above my head, touch my thumbs together and my index fingers together to form a triangle and say that's how big it looked before I caved. We never reported it.

Exactly 2 weeks later on the 21st, I seemed to be the only one interested in rehashing that night. It was just beginning to get dark. Three of us were walking to the edge of the campus where our P.O. boxes and a Dairy Queen were located. Bob had been one of the 5 in the car. He was with me and another guy and I was re-telling the tale to this third guy, using Bob as a witness. Actually by this time, the other 3 that had been in the car wanted me to just STFU about it but I couldn't let it go. We were standing at a traffic light across the street from a store on the opposite corner and I was right in the middle of talking about it. Behind the store was a small stand of trees. Directly across the crosswalk on that corner was a similar stand of trees. Behind those, less than 50 feet away, was the large parking area that had the Post Office and DQ. There was a sudden rush of wind. The noise of wind came from the left. We could clearly see a maybe 40 foot long "craft" of some kind whooshing by at what was maybe 40-50 miles per hour, above and behind the corner store and behind, but not higher than, the stand of trees. There was no engine sound, only the rush of wind, and what sounded like something metal flapping against something metal. There were sections of light on the side we could see that did not look like running lights, but gave the impression of a row of windows with the visible light coming from within. I ran across the street past the trees and into the open parking area and stood directly behind the path of this thing as it moved away. The parking area bordered a large field that had few trees and the thing was now moving over it. One of the other guys reached the parking area and was behind me. From this perspective, all we could see was a an object moving away from us in a straight line. Just as quickly, this object appeared to suddenly move up 90 degrees for a second, then back down 90 degrees to the same path it had been on and continued to move straight away from us. It repeated this same manoeuver twice more, until it was too far away to be visible. Each of the 3 times it did that, bits of light that looked like flames shot out of it and sprinkled down on the downturn, but faded before they got to the ground.

I was 18 years old and did not drink or use drugs, and neither did any of the witnesses to this "shared hallucination." There were no photos, no abductions, no slot-mouth, no eared, bobblehead short people - nothing whatsoever left behind to hold in my hand.

OK, I finally talked about it on JREF. Somebody offer an opinion. I'm not going to interpret it as a whole. Obviously some of the details I provided involve a bit of interpretation for purposes of description. I remember it well because I have written it down many times and for a long time afterwards I couldn't STFU about it.


Looks like we're in the same boat, brother. One of wonder.
:)

[Devil's Advocate]

I have a question for the hard core physicists out there:
If an alien civilization broadcast a signal at say 10000 Watts at say 10 light years away(for the sake or round numbers), using the Poynting Vector (the decrease in wattage as a function of distance) would we, even in theory, be able to detect such a weak signal? I don't know how weak of a signal SETI can detect and haven't crunched any numbers but it seems to me that such a signal would come across as nothing more than virtually undetectable background noise.

It is hard to say. The only thing I've heard about S.E.T.I is they work at the low end of radio waves. They assume that an advanced civilization would use a base form of signal to raise probability of it reaching some that were looking for it.

And I believe their founder started the Disclosure Project.
(I could be mistaken in that though)

[Pardalis]

This podcast really nails it for me, as to the probability for aliens to ever understand our radio signals, and vice-versa, it's also very funny.

http://www.logicallycritical.net/podcast/22%20Red-Shifted%20Audience.mp3

[Devil's Advocate]

Generic UFO talk belongs over in General Skepticism and the Paranormal.

Not if there is government conspiracy to cover up alien contact.
:D

[RecoveringYuppy]

I have a question for the hard core physicists out there:
If an alien civilization broadcast a signal at say 10000 Watts at say 10 light years away(for the sake or round numbers), using the Poynting Vector (the decrease in wattage as a function of distance) would we, even in theory, be able to detect such a weak signal? I don't know how weak of a signal SETI can detect and haven't crunched any numbers but it seems to me that such a signal would come across as nothing more than virtually undetectable background noise.
If I assume that's a monochromatic signal and I've done my arithmetic correctly that works out to about 10 micro-Janskys. Arecibo's web site is down at the moment and I can't find another reference for their capabilities so I don't know for sure if that is detectable. But I think not.

ETA: With another caveat for my arithmetic I figure the signal from Voyager 1 at 10 Janskys, a million times higher than the number I figured above for your source. That's based on Voyager being a 300 watt source at 15 trillion meters and broadcasting (last assumption is probably not accurate)

Another edit: http://contactincontext.org/cic/v2i1/lucy.pdf

[portlandatheist]

Recovering Yuppy: Thanks for the pdf
Pardalis: Thanks for the mp3
These links definitely answered my fundamental question.

[Devil's Advocate]

Just for an idea of height on the one I saw....
This picture is only to show the height and idea of the shape and lights. The church it was over was smaller, and was surrounded by trees.

http://forums.randi.org/z/user/7/9/0/8/1/main.1184537154.jpg


*edit* what is the img code?
:)

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Just for an idea of height on the one I saw....
This picture is only to show the height and idea of the shape and lights. The church it was over was smaller, and was surrounded by trees.

http://forums.randi.org/z/user/7/9/0/8/1/main.1184537154.jpg


*edit* what is the img code?
:)

http://forums.randi.org/z/user/7/9/0/8/1/main.1184537154.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/z/user/7/9/0/8/1/main.1184537154.jpg)
http://forums.randi.org/z/user/7/9/0/8/1/main.1184537154.jpg

[Devil's Advocate]

http://forums.randi.org/z/user/7/9/0/8/1/main.1184537154.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/z/user/7/9/0/8/1/main.1184537154.jpg)
http://forums.randi.org/z/user/7/9/0/8/1/main.1184537154.jpg

Mucho appreciato.
Yeah, my Spanish stinks.
:)
Thanks.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Mucho appreciato.
Yeah, my Spanish stinks.
:)
Thanks.
De nada.

[Pope130]

Edit To Add: This is an interesting link on German aircraft design in WWII

http://www.century-of-flight.freeola.com/new%20site/frames/horten%20frame.htm

It seems after WWII America adopted this design and eventually developped stealth technology. So it's not aliens, but Nazis that are responsible for UFOs ;)

Jack Northrops' work was independent, and in many respects ahead, of the German WW-II projects. Northrop flew several piston engined flying wings during the war, as well as a jet engined prototype, and a rocket. The information from the Horton projects had no influence on the B-35 design, which was already fixed before the end of the war. The B-49 was a direct jet powered derivative of the B-35.

Robert Klaus

[gumboot]

I know the True Believer UFOgists reject the explanation that the lights were those of shrimp boats. However, the blobs of light filmed would have resolved into something else if the cameraman had simply focused his camera at say infinity rather than the few feet it most definitely is. Many UFO photos are similar out of focus blurry blobs. :boggled:


The objects were tracked both on Wellington ATC radar, and on the aircraft's on board radar. It wasn't reflected light. The "boat light out of focus" explanation works for the footage, but it fails to explain the radar data or the experience of the pilots and film crew that saw the lights with their own eyes.

-Gumboot

[Gord_in_Toronto]

The objects were tracked both on Wellington ATC radar, and on the aircraft's on board radar. It wasn't reflected light. The "boat light out of focus" explanation works for the footage, but it fails to explain the radar data or the experience of the pilots and film crew that saw the lights with their own eyes.

-Gumboot

If the film crew claims that the actual objects looked like what they filmed then they are "mistaken". The pictures look just like out of focus point sources. For the rest of the evidence, without a whole lot more data (meteorological, type of radars involved, etc), it is all a bit iffy.

Yes, this is a ufo, but it is not a UFO. (I know that's what you said but my point is that there is at least one alternative explanation.) :D

[firecoins]

its about time the US, Canadian, British, Russian and Aussie governments privatized all UFO conspiracies. The private sector can come with better theories for cheaper.