The Christian Trinity Doctrine

[Wings]

The Trinity is a Christian Doctrine that states that God is one being who simultaneously exists as a mutal indwelling of three persons. The Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit.

My question on this is, what kind of twisted logic do you need to make sense of this bizzare and wacky idea?

[JoeEllison]

The Trinity is a Christian Doctrine that states that God is one being who simultaneously exists as a mutal indwelling of three persons. The Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit.

My question on this is, what kind of twisted logic do you need to make sense of this bizzare and wacky idea?
First you kick out the logic, and double up on the twisted...

The real problem, as I see it, is that it invalidates the entire foundation of Christinsanity. If you say that Jesus is also God, and assume that God has supreme powers, then where exactly is the "sacrifice" on the cross? Since God can't die, then Jesus didn't really die, and the whole thing sort of falls apart on its own.

[brooklyn44]

I don't know of "christinsanity" is your coinage, but I love it!

[Wings]

So, does "God" have multiple personality disorder?

You know, that might explain a lot!

[joobz]

They had to do a trinity. Dualism was already taken.

[Marquis de Carabas]

My question on this is, what kind of twisted logic do you need to make sense of this bizzare and wacky idea?
Faith.

[Dutchman]

The trinity doctrine is a cornerstone of faith for many denominations of christianity, but its foundation in the bible is, to say the least, very shaky. The bible never mentions the word, and it requires some ingenious interpretation here and there to read it in the book. An attempt to squeeze it in is the so-called Comma Johanneum (I cannot post links yet, but Wikipedia has an artice about it).

[JoeEllison]

I don't know of "christinsanity" is your coinage, but I love it!


THAT WAS ALL ME!! TELL YOUR FRIENDS!!

Sorry for shouting.

[kellyb]

"There are some things that are beyond human comprehension."

Which means "Just don't think too hard about it."

[Hutch]

I've just been reading Terry Jones' book on "Barbarians" (from his TV series of the same name) and they discuss this topic there.

IIRC, the early Christian Church was all over the place regarding God and Jesus. Many Christians were Arianists, believing in the God Jesus preached but not the divinity of Jesus (in some ways, very close to Islamic Theology). But the Trinitarians (the 1 God in 3 aspects) got control of the Roman Empire and managed to pretty well snuff out the other competing forms of Christianity...at least for a millenium or so...

The whole Trinity idea is what I never could accept as a Catholic growing up...and then actually reading the Bible did me in for all religion.

[Liquid_Grace]

The Trinity is a Christian Doctrine that states that God is one being who simultaneously exists as a mutal indwelling of three persons. The Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit.

My question on this is, what kind of twisted logic do you need to make sense of this bizzare and wacky idea?

I can give you the answer I was given, all those years ago (note, I do not believe this now and I pretty much didn't believe it then.)

It was explained to me that to visualise the Trinity, you think of a cherry pie cut into three pieces, still in the pie plate (I went to church in the South, so we talked about food a lot.)

Now there are, clearly, three pieces to the pie. But cherry pie is not a solid pie (like pumpkin, say) and thus, even though there are clearly three pieces, there is still only one filling inside the pie.

Thus, it is possible to have something that is both three and one at the same time.

Yes, that is lame, but there you go.

Cheers,
Grace

[Marquis de Carabas]

I can give you the answer I was given, all those years ago (note, I do not believe this now and I pretty much didn't believe it then.)

It was explained to me that to visualise the Trinity, you think of a cherry pie cut into three pieces, still in the pie plate (I went to church in the South, so we talked about food a lot.)

Now there are, clearly, three pieces to the pie. But cherry pie is not a solid pie (like pumpkin, say) and thus, even though there are clearly three pieces, there is still only one filling inside the pie.

Thus, it is possible to have something that is both three and one at the same time.

Yes, that is lame, but there you go.

Cheers,
Grace
OK, let me get this straight. You're saying Warrant was a Christian band?

[IMST]

It's just your standard three god monotheism. What's so complicated/contradictory about that?

[Liquid_Grace]

OK, let me get this straight. You're saying Warrant was a Christian band?

Yes! Yes I was!

And you know, there's an earworm I could have lived without, thanks.

Hehehehe...:D

Cheers,
Grace

[Tony]

I can give you the answer I was given, all those years ago (note, I do not believe this now and I pretty much didn't believe it then.)

It was explained to me that to visualise the Trinity, you think of a cherry pie cut into three pieces, still in the pie plate (I went to church in the South, so we talked about food a lot.)

Now there are, clearly, three pieces to the pie. But cherry pie is not a solid pie (like pumpkin, say) and thus, even though there are clearly three pieces, there is still only one filling inside the pie.

Thus, it is possible to have something that is both three and one at the same time.

Yes, that is lame, but there you go.

Cheers,
Grace

Did they not realize the simply pulled that explanation out of their arses?

[ceo_esq]

First you kick out the logic, and double up on the twisted...

The tools of Greek philosophy, including its logic (but also its modes of argumentation, metaphysical vocabulary, etc.) seem to have made it easier for Trinitarianism to assert itself in early Christianity. Among other things, they helped furnish a basis for demonstrating that there is no necessary logical contradiction in considering something as a unity in one respect and a multiplicity in another respect. The theological difficulties surrounding the Trinity strike me as greater than any logico-philosophical ones, although perhaps that's a reflection of my having much less of a formation in the former than the latter field.

[Zep]

It was to give themselves something to argue about and "study" for the foreseeable future. Along with "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin."

[ceo_esq]

IIRC, the early Christian Church was all over the place regarding God and Jesus. Many Christians were Arianists, believing in the God Jesus preached but not the divinity of Jesus (in some ways, very close to Islamic Theology). But the Trinitarians (the 1 God in 3 aspects) got control of the Roman Empire and managed to pretty well snuff out the other competing forms of Christianity...at least for a millenium or so...

Was Arianism ever (either before or after Arius) a serious competitor to, say, the orthodoxy eventually recognized and affirmed at Nicaea? I thought that even at its apex (which came after Arius' condemnation, I believe), it was more of a vocal, late-blooming fringe element.

[RenaissanceBiker]

The christian trinity idea is supposed to confuse you. The church leaders appear to understand it. Maybe you just need to think about it more. Just go along with the group and god will allow you to understand in his own time. The leaders just want to keep you confused, controlled and tithing.

[Liquid_Grace]

Did they not realize the simply pulled that explanation out of their arses?

Well, yes and no.

I mean, yes, it's a silly explanation, no doubt.

However, if you accept the Christian doctrine of a triune god, it's a plausible way to explain it. It made the concept clearer for me, at least.

As an atheist and a skeptic, of course, I find the whole idea of god(s) quite silly, triune or no. But at the time, struggling to be a believer, it gave me a way to visualise something that is both three and one at the same time.

Embarrassing to write it all out, now, though.

Cheers,
Grace

[Bikewer]

We know that some of the early Christian groups, (mostly the Gnostics) considered the Old Testament god to be an aberrant outcast from the "true" gods, an insane rogue as Ehrman says.
This mainly due to Jehovah's well-demonstrated proclivities toward violence and genocide...
Though the Gnostics lost out in the overall scheme of things, perhaps their objections had some impact.
By dividing "God" up into a triune figure, they could emphasize the nice aspects of Jesus while leaving a rather nasty "father" in reserve just in case someone got uppity....

[JJM 777]

For those who have absolutely nothing better to do in life than examine this issue, here are some helpful links:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nontrinitarianism
http://www.experiencefestival.com/a/Trinity/id/1897697
http://www.onenessweb.com/apostolicpillar//articles/trinity.html

[ImaginalDisc]

The dogma of the Trinity just happened to be the central tennet of the winning side of a brutal, centuries-long, sectarian war of unconscionable bloodshed as "heretics" guilty of the crime of disagreement with the Nicene creed over the characteristics of an invisible friend were wiped out to maintain Christendom's stance on the subject of a 4th century debate which requires ignoring numerous Biblical passages which state or imply the division between God and Jesus.

Not that fourth century Christian theologians were adverse to counting things and using logic. . .

"The good Christian should beware the mathematician and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of hell." - "St." Augustine

Like the fact that we're writing in English as opposed to French, and other features of our culture, it's an accident of history and it's a part of our culture because the winning murderers happened to prefer it.

[slyjoe]

Maybe the early Christinsanes actually discovered fractional dimensions. For example, take a ball of string.
1. At great distance, it looks like a point (1 dimension)
2. A little closer, it looks like a circle (2 dimensions)
3. Even closer, it looks like a sphere (3 dimension)

So, holy trinity = ball of string. (Just don't pull on it).

[ceo_esq]

Not that fourth century Christian theologians were adverse to counting things and using logic. . .

The word mistranslated as "mathematicians" in your quotation from Augustine actually refers to fortune-telling astrologers and numerologists, not mathematicians. I expect that Augustine would have been about the last person to smear mathematicians as such.


Like the fact that we're writing in English as opposed to French, and other features of our culture, it's an accident of history and it's a part of our culture because the winning murderers happened to prefer it.

Even in the completely novel event that your assessment of this history were accurate, you're misleadingly implying that the theological outcome of these struggles could easily have gone another way, which seems unlikely. It's hard to see how even the most successful and well-developed heretical movements with an antitrinitarian aspect (probably Albigensianism and related views in the Middle Ages), even if left unmolested, would ever have supplanted Trinitarian orthodoxy generally.