Time to kick Iran

[WildCat]

Do you know one such foreigner?

I am one such foreigner, I know others, and it doesn't apply.
It obviously applies, because you live in the USA. Fact is, because there was no work for you in your beloved France you had to come work in a country you hate among people you hate, and it has made you angry and bitter. But you would rather be angry and bitter, surrounded by people you hate and despise, than live in France.

That is a fact.

[WildCat]

The U.S. Department of Labor, stupid.
Wait, you missed the good part!

Who gives a crap? Remember when JJ, a "fat stupid American", destroyed you in mathmatics and engineering? There may have been great mathematicians from Europe, but you sure aren't one of them Ion!

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=18259
Remember that thread Ion? The one where a fat stupid American runs circles around you in mathematics?

[Ion]

Wait, you missed the good part!


Remember that thread Ion? The one where a fat stupid American runs circles around you in mathematics?
Like if you understand mathematics to judge who knows better.

What's the FFT of a tone, dumby?

You don't have a cell phone without this answer, dumby.

[Ion]

It obviously applies, because you live in the USA.
...
It doesn't apply DumbCat because I didn't come to U.S. because of bad economy in France.

So, this:
Many foreigners come to the US to work because they cannot get a job in their home countries, due to the horse crap economies socialist paradises often produce - especially those with no natural resources to survive on. They take the jobs Americans don't want.
doesn't apply.

Think ink/data ratio before posting.

As for European Engineers taking the jobs that Americans don't want, suuuuuure, I believe you, Americans don't want jobs in the six figures...

[gtc]

You are clueless, both of you, one Italian, and a gtc retard from faith-based primitive U.S..

I am not American.

This just goes to prove my point.

Of course you are the person who thinks that substituting the word neo-con for Jew in a joke that plays on Jewish stereotypes will protect you from being called an anti-semite. So I really can't expect intelligent comments from you.

By the way, is Ion French or Romanian?

[Darth Rotor]

By the way, is Ion French or Romanian?
I had heard that in Cyrillic writing, "I" represents "mor" but maybe I didn't hear that correctly. ;)

DR

[WildCat]

Like if you understand mathematics to judge who knows better.

What's the FFT of a tone, dumby?

You don't have a cell phone without this answer, dumby.
I don't have to know the math to see who was back-pedaling, obsfucating, and running in circles.

JJ totally owned you.

[WildCat]

It doesn't apply DumbCat because I didn't come to U.S. because of bad economy in France.
Yes, you did! That much is obvious. Most likely you couldn't even get a job as a waiter in France. Or did you use your math skills counting the number of grapes you picked? Either way, you must have been mighty desperate to come to the US, a land you hate filled with people you hate, where you have no friends and are left to stew alone at your computer calling people names in a desperate attempt to forget the self-loathing that is eating you up inside.

[Matteo Martini]

Sorry for the OT interruption...

We're not innocent, unfortunately.

Google for any combination of Triple Alliance, war and Paraguay.

And we also have our share of millitary dictatorships and social injustices.

Thank you for the attention, please return to your regular schedule.

Correa,
what a pleasure.
So much time..
Do you remember?
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=32275

By the way, I checked and the war you are talking about is something of 130+ years ago..
Not really recent history

About military dictatorship, that happened, but I was pointing out to the foreign policy behaviour, and not to internal problems.

Crimes, in the meaning a nation committing crimes ( outside the boundaries of the nation itself ).

Sorry, I did not specify

As for social injustices, which is the country which does not have them?

[Matteo Martini]

To:

and to:

You mean that Texas Instruments doesn't employ in San Diego hundreds of Electrical Engineers educated in Socialist France and Europe?

Ditto for Motorola in San Diego, 3Com, Cisco?

And so on.



I was talking about the " high standards " that Socialist Europe has ( in your opinion )



You are clueless, both of you, one Italian, and a gtc retard from faith-based primitive U.S..

I can only thank you, Ion.
If it were not for you, I would be still regarded as a staunch anti-American, here.

[Matteo Martini]

Because from France, I name mathematicians Fourier, Le Galois, d'Alembert, Cauchy, Descartes, Poincare, Fourmi, Fermat, La Place, l'Hopital in Engineering books.


The majority of the mathematicians you are quoting, lived in the end of the 18th or in the beginning of the 19th century.
Pierre de Fermat, lived in the 17th century.
Considering that America was born in 1776 ( I hope I am not wrong on this ), give them some time to catch up.
Now, look at the Nobel Prizes of the 20th century..

[WildCat]

I can only thank you, Ion.
If it were not for you, I would be still regarded as a staunch anti-American, here.
:D

[Matteo Martini]

Except that's not a fact. If Saddam had no WMD, why did he go to the trouble of sanitizing files, computers and facilities the ISG said were related to WMD? If Saddam had no WMD, then where did that binary sarin shell come from and why did the ISG say there might be others? If Saddam had no WMD, what was in the trucks that were seen going to Syria before the war? The ISG said they have credible sources that indicate they contained WMD related items. If Saddam had no WMD, why allow his regime to be toppled and himself to be tried and executed, when all he had to do was prove that to the UN inspectors from the start?

And by the way, the war wasn't just about whether Iraq had WMD anyway.

Not no WMD at all, but " no military relevant quantities of WMD ", or something like that.
We had a thread on that, some time ago.

[Flo]

It obviously applies, because you live in the USA. Fact is, because there was no work for you in your beloved France you had to come work in a country you hate among people you hate, and it has made you angry and bitter. But you would rather be angry and bitter, surrounded by people you hate and despise, than live in France.

That is a fact.


Sorry to interrupt you in this fascinating p***** contest, but as a Frenchwoman living in France, I'd like to make you aware that France isn't a socialist country (Chirac wasn't socialist, nor is Sarkozy), and the main reason people like Ion go from Romania to France to the US isn't so much because there's no work for them in Europe but because they spend their lives in the delusion that "over there, grass is rosier". Of course, upon realising that nobody anywhere will offer them the position of "supreme-arch-illuminating-leader" of whatever field they think they exell in, the bitterness returns. I predict the next generation will bore us from China with the exact same discourse ...


Carry on ...

[Matteo Martini]

.. the main reason people like Ion go from Romania to France to the US isn't so much because there's no work for them in Europe but because they spend their lives in the delusion that "over there, grass is rosier".

Well, many people do move from country to country as they expect a better life in another country.
This happens today, as many Albianians, Maroccoans, etc. move to Italy, Turks to Germany, Mexicans to the US, Africans to France, etc.
And, the same reason why, in the past, Italians moved to the US or South America, etc.
The grass is sometime rosier somewhere else..

[Flo]

Well, many people do move from country to country as they expect a better life in another country.
This happens today, as many Albianians, Maroccoans, etc. move to Italy, Turks to Germany, Mexicans to the US, Africans to France, etc.
And, the same reason why, in the past, Italians moved to the US or South America, etc.
The grass is sometime rosier somewhere else..


You're right, but I was commenting specifically on Ion's stupid rantings, not on people leaving a poor country lacking in opportunities for jobs or for creating businesses (not to mention basic individual freedoms and safety). I know of a number of Swiss and French people like him, who left to the US because they weren't good enough to land a good job here, or create a viable business, and usually blamed it on "stupid rules", bureaucracy, taxes, whatever, obstacles that they claimed didn't exist in the New World. Once there, they usually flaunt their (relative) wealth when speaking with us miserable cowards who are staying in decaying Europe, all the while complaining about the failings of decadent American society.

[Matteo Martini]

You're right, but I was commenting specifically on Ion's stupid rantings,

OK, I wat thinking you were making a general statement

[Correa Neto]

Correa,
what a pleasure.
So much time..
Do you remember?
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=32275

By the way, I checked and the war you are talking about is something of 130+ years ago..
Not really recent history

About military dictatorship, that happened, but I was pointing out to the foreign policy behaviour, and not to internal problems.

Crimes, in the meaning a nation committing crimes ( outside the boundaries of the nation itself ).

Sorry, I did not specify

As for social injustices, which is the country which does not have them?
Yes, I remember! I have not been engaged in discussions on the nature of the self lately, but they helped me a lot in recent adverse and happy times.

Oh, lets us get back in track!
130, 1000, 10 years... Moral relativism apart, a crime is a crime, regardless of how long ago it was commited.

And our millitary dictatorship was involved in what could be labelled as crimes outside our boundaries.
Check this:
http://www.crimesofwar.org/special/condor.html
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/news/20010306/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Condor

These are in Portuguese:
http://www.usp.br/jorusp/arquivo/2005/jusp728/pag0405.htm
http://www.historianet.com.br/conteudo/default.aspx?codigo=158
http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opera%C3%A7%C3%A3o_Condor

I think all it takes for a government that commits crimes against its own people to do similar acts beyond its borders is opportunity.

We should wonder how our countries, how our people would react if they were in a position of economical/millitary strenght and leadership (or dominance, if you preffer) similar to USA. Surely we would press our interests forward. But how hard?

[Flo]

I think all it takes for a government that commits crimes against its own people to do similar acts beyond its borders is opportunity.

We should wonder how our countries, how our people would react if they were in a position of economical/millitary strenght and leadership (or dominance, if you preffer) similar to USA. Surely we would press our interests forward. But how hard?


At every points in history, there's been countries in the same position, and every single one has committed crimes against their neighbors in order to press their interests. Compared to what various Asian, pre-Columbian, even African societies, and more recently European colonisators*, did to some of their neighbors, what the USA are doing now isn't particularly "evil", although it certainly can't be considered saintly.

* and it's not stopping: our charming Prez. Sarkozy is being all buddy-buddy with some of the worst kind of dictators in Africa (Bongo), way to promote democracy and human rights, thank you ! :rolleyes:

[sackett]

Flo and Matteo:

The tired old English idiom is "The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence."

My late father-in-law liked to say, "The grass is always greener over the sceptic tank."

But "The grass is always rosier" is superior to either, and you have my gratitude for adding a fresh phrase to the language we're forced to share with Ion.

Hoka hey! Hau, hau!

[Darth Rotor]

But "The grass is always rosier" is superior to either, and you have my gratitude for adding a fresh phrase to the language we're forced to share with Ion.

The lyrical quality of French idiom adds poetry to yet another expression, this time through mistranslation.

This is a good thing. I was once told that the French referred to crab lice as "the butterflies of amorous love." Not sure if that is true, but it sure is poetic.

DR

[sackett]

I rely on posters here to improve me mutha tongue. Same way I rely on Ion for an occasional dirty laugh.

[Matteo Martini]

The tired old English idiom is "The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence."


I knew it!!
It has been Flo, who wrote it first
It is all her fault.
I just copied from her, do not blame me..
:) ( kidding )

[WildCat]

My late father-in-law liked to say, "The grass is always greener over the sceptic tank."
Your father-in-law totally ripped off Erma Bombeck (http://www.amazon.com/Grass-Always-Greener-over-Septic/dp/0345471725/ref=pd_bbs_sr_5/002-7718211-9446424?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1187908169&sr=8-5).

[Ion]

The majority of the mathematicians you are quoting, lived in the end of the 18th or in the beginning of the 19th century.
...
Poincare lived in the 20th. century.

Einstein took the mathematics for his theory of Relativity from Poincare's topology.

Le Galois, Ricatti, they lived in the 20th. century.

Right now the French mathematicians work on the string theory, and CalTech (U.S.) plagiarizes them.

I can make a whole list with only 20th. century French mathematicians.

At the same time, U.S. was invading Guatemala for example.

Invading Guatemala doesn't belong in Engineering books.
It beats me how U.S. invading Guatemala improved the world.
I know it improved U.S. Senators who were directors in United Fruit (Guatemala).

However, Poincare's mathematics belong in Engineering books.
Poincare's mathematics (for example his topology) do improve the world.

[Ion]

I was talking about the " high standards " that Socialist Europe has ( in your opinion )
...

I am talking about the high standards that Socialist Europe has.

High, relative to U.S.'s standards.

[Ion]

You're right, but I was commenting specifically on Ion's stupid rantings, not on people leaving a poor country lacking in opportunities for jobs or for creating businesses (not to mention basic individual freedoms and safety). I know of a number of Swiss and French people like him, who left to the US because they weren't good enough to land a good job here, or create a viable business, and usually blamed it on "stupid rules", bureaucracy, taxes, whatever, obstacles that they claimed didn't exist in the New World. Once there, they usually flaunt their (relative) wealth when speaking with us miserable cowards who are staying in decaying Europe, all the while complaining about the failings of decadent American society.
I had a good job in France up until I left it to immigrate, stupid.

In fact my best job in life (not because of the money, so stop salivating about money) was in France.

I am talking here to a loser French, one whose 'intelligence' couldn't manage to study in Classes Preparatoires aux Grandes Ecoles there.

The cream of the French culture (so no money for you in here) is above your head.

[Darth Rotor]

I am talking about the high standards that Socialist Europe has.

High, relative to U.S.'s standards.
Indeed. The needles used by recreational drug users in Perugia are certainly clean, except for the blood on them. See, I can non sequitur too. Isn't it fun?

DR

[Ion]

Indeed. The needles used by recreational drug users in Perugia are certainly clean, except for the blood on them. See, I can non sequitur too. Isn't it fun?

DR
I don't know what you are saying.

Maybe you should raise your standards.

[Darth Rotor]

I don't know what you are saying.

Maybe you should raise your standards
Maybe you should borrow a nickel and rent a clue. Look up non sequitur, then look at your Guatemala remark, and meditate on it.

DR

[Ion]

...Look up non sequitur, then look at your Guatemala remark, and meditate on it.

DR
You are still spaced out regarding what the world needs most:

.) U.S. invading Guatemala,

or

.) mathematician Poincare (France) inventing topology.

Can't help you here, BasementGirl (from U.S.).

[Matteo Martini]

I am talking about the high standards that Socialist Europe has.

High, relative to U.S.'s standards.

In what sense?

Human rights` standards?
Economy standards?
Science standards?
..??

[Matteo Martini]

Poincare lived in the 20th. century.

Einstein took the mathematics for his theory of Relativity from Poincare's topology.


Yes.
BTW, Einstein was Jew


Le Galois, Ricatti, they lived in the 20th. century.


Ricatti was not in your list


Right now the French mathematicians work on the string theory, and CalTech (U.S.) plagiarizes them.


List of Field Medal winners:

2006: Andrei Okounkov (Russia), Grigori Perelman (Russia) (declined), Terence Tao (Australia), Wendelin Werner (France)
2002: Laurent Lafforgue (France), Vladimir Voevodsky (Russia)
1998: Richard Ewen Borcherds (UK), William Timothy Gowers (UK), Maxim Kontsevich (Russia), Curtis T. McMullen (U.S.)
1994: Efim Isakovich Zelmanov (Russia), Pierre-Louis Lions (France), Jean Bourgain (Belgium), Jean-Christophe Yoccoz (France)
1990: Vladimir Drinfeld (USSR), Vaughan Frederick Randal Jones (New Zealand), Shigefumi Mori (Japan), Edward Witten (U.S.)
1986: Simon Donaldson (UK), Gerd Faltings (West Germany), Michael Freedman (U.S.)
1982: Alain Connes (France), William Thurston (U.S.), Shing-Tung Yau (China/U.S.)
1978: Pierre Deligne (Belgium), Charles Fefferman (U.S.), Grigory Margulis (USSR), Daniel Quillen (U.S.)
1974: Enrico Bombieri (Italy), David Mumford (U.S.)
1970: Alan Baker (UK), Heisuke Hironaka (Japan), Sergei Petrovich Novikov (USSR), John Griggs Thompson (U.S.)
1966: Michael Atiyah (UK), Paul Joseph Cohen (U.S.), Alexander Grothendieck (France), Stephen Smale (U.S.)
1962: Lars Hörmander (Sweden), John Milnor (U.S.)
1958: Klaus Roth (UK), René Thom (France)
1954: Kunihiko Kodaira (Japan), Jean-Pierre Serre (France)
1950: Laurent Schwartz (France), Atle Selberg (Norway)
1936: Lars Ahlfors (Finland), Jesse Douglas (U.S.)

There seems to be 12 people under " U.S. "..
And 10 under " France "..
Yes, if we compare with the population, France is better than the U.S., I agree
But, the U.S. is better than, for example Italy or Romania

[Matteo Martini]

Le Galois, Ricatti, they lived in the 20th. century.


And Evariste Galois did NOT live in the 20th century, he lived in the early 19th century.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galois
At, least, if you are speaking about the famous Evariste Galois

[Darth Rotor]

You are still spaced out regarding what the world needs most:

.) U.S. invading Guatemala,

or

.) mathematician Poincare (France) inventing topology.

Can't help you here, BasementGirl (from U.S.).
You are the one who went there, Ion, from the OT on mathematicians to the non sequitur on Guatemala. That is why I was making fun of your raw inability to remain remotely on topic.

ADD is rough, eh? Your posts are better when the meds are working.

DR

[Flo]

I had a good job in France up until I left it to immigrate, stupid.

In fact my best job in life (not because of the money, so stop salivating about money) was in France.

I am talking here to a loser French, one whose 'intelligence' couldn't manage to study in Classes Preparatoires aux Grandes Ecoles there.

The cream of the French culture (so no money for you in here) is above your head.


Thank you for proving my point ... :D

[Ion]

You are the one who went there, Ion, from the OT on mathematicians to the non sequitur on Guatemala. That is why I was making fun of your raw inability to remain remotely on topic.

ADD is rough, eh? Your posts are better when the meds are working.

DR
I know.

The concept of:

do mathematics, not war

is too much intelligence for you.

[Ion]

Thank you for proving my point ... :D
The point being that you are a cultural failure in France.

[Ion]

Yes.
BTW, Einstein was Jew



Ricatti was not in your list



List of Field Medal winners:
...
There seems to be 12 people under " U.S. "..
And 10 under " France "..
Yes, if we compare with the population, France is better than the U.S., I agree
But, the U.S. is better than, for example Italy or Romania
Einstein was not a mathematician.
I put him in there to show that he used mathematician Poincare's topology, as proof of how important Poincare's topology is.

More important than U.S. endeavors.
And I gave U.S.' invasion of Guatemala as a proof of U.S.'s waste in endeavors.

I go by more than Fields prize.
The Fields prize is more elitist than Nobel's, but the most elitist thing is what endures the trial of time in succeeding, which is mathematicians that are proved to be useful in Engineering books.

Most Fields' prizes won't make it in Engineering books, proof of them being of academia or trivia value, but not of applicability to any human progress in applied physics and Engineering.

[Ion]

And Evariste Galois did NOT live in the 20th century, he lived in the early 19th century.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galois
At, least, if you are speaking about the famous Evariste Galois
I speak of Le Galois taught in Engineering schools as the one who proved that there is no rational solution to equations of degree three and higher.

But let's take this Evariste Galois (France).
I studied in France his algebra's Group.
In 19th. century, U.S. was a nation.
Yet it never matched in Engineering books until today this Evariste Galois.

Ditto for Lagrange (France) who lived around 1840s.
He is the one who approximates trigonometric functions (like sin x) when x is near 0 to polynomials (like x-x(cube)/3!+x(five)/5!-x(seven)/7!-...).
Very important discovery in any applied physics (cars, rockets, ships, computers).
More from Lagrange in interpollation of functions.
Well, U.S. existed in 1840s.
It never matched in Engineering books this Lagrange.

[Ion]

In what sense?

Human rights` standards?
Economy standards?
Science standards?
..??
Civilization, including education.

Let's take a look at John McEnroe's You cannot be serious studying at Stanford (U.S.) in page 76:

"...I'll freely admit that academics was not my forte...I said to myself "I have to find out what what the athletes take."...In "Sleep, Narcolepsy, and Politics," I was actually able to get an A by playing a charity tennis exhibition. The most memorable was my exposition course: The teacher walked in, stared at us worldlessly for fifteen minutes -it felt like an eternity- and finally said, "I'll bet you're wondering what the requirements for this course are. There is no midterm, no final exam, and there are no papers." This was more like it!..."

Now consider what happens with this stupidity when the graduate of such American diploma mill is someone who who has social power to Shock and Awe innocent populations.
Like Bush who was admitted on legacy and money -not on brain- at Yale and Harvard, and who undertakes to bomb Iraq and lie (with dumb Americans gleefully believing that this is 'patriotic').
That's scary.

Compare Stanford's empty course that is expensive with the sylabus that I have on Mathematiques Speciales M from having studied anonymously -no legacy, no affirmative action American garbage, just anonymously, free of charge, on personal merit- in France.

The starkest difference between French's brainy and U.S.' brainless systems is rendered by Eve Curie, daughter of Polish born and French educated scientist Marie Curie:

Marie Curie considered U.S.' universities to be made of buffoons.

[Matteo Martini]

I speak of Le Galois taught in Engineering schools as the one who proved that there is no rational solution to equations of degree three and higher.

I admit my ignorance on the matter
I have been to Engineering University, but I do not recall of any of such theorem
I also did a search on " Wikipedia " on " Le Galois ", or " Legalois ", but got no result, but I may be 100% wrong..


But let's take this Evariste Galois (France).
I studied in France his algebra's Group.
In 19th. century, U.S. was a nation.
Yet it never matched in Engineering books until today this Evariste Galois.

Ditto for Lagrange (France) who lived around 1840s.
He is the one who approximates trigonometric functions (like sin x) when x is near 0 to polynomials (like x-x(cube)/3!+x(five)/5!-x(seven)/7!-...).
Very important discovery in any applied physics (cars, rockets, ships, computers).
More from Lagrange in interpollation of functions.
Well, U.S. existed in 1840s.
It never matched in Engineering books this Lagrange.

Yes, but you are speaking of times when the U.S. were really young.
Like China now..
At that time, the U.S. were maybe less developed than France and Germany and the U.K.
If you speak about current times, it is the U.S. the main force driving science, in many fields, even if not alone, though..

[dudalb]

Something Impossible has happened.
Ion is making Oliver look like a intelligent guy.

[Matteo Martini]

Civilization, including education.

Let's take a look at John McEnroe's You cannot be serious studying at Stanford (U.S.) in page 76:

"...I'll freely admit that academics was not my forte...I said to myself "I have to find out what what the athletes take."...In "Sleep, Narcolepsy, and Politics," I was actually able to get an A by playing a charity tennis exhibition. The most memorable was my exposition course: The teacher walked in, stared at us worldlessly for fifteen minutes -it felt like an eternity- and finally said, "I'll bet you're wondering what the requirements for this course are. There is no midterm, no final exam, and there are no papers." This was more like it!..."


OK.
But, do not you think that, the US, at the moment, is the number one in fields such as:
- mechanical engineering
- electronic engineering
- optics
- pharma
- ..
do not you think that this may be due also to the US education?


Now consider what happens with this stupidity when the graduate of such American diploma mill is someone who who has social power to Shock and Awe innocent populations.
Like Bush who was admitted on legacy and money -not on brain- at Yale and Harvard, and who undertakes to bomb Iraq and lie (with dumb Americans gleefully believing that this is 'patriotic').
That's scary.


Bush, Bush, always Bush..
OK, Bush is an idiot, so what?
Does that mean that all the Americans are idiots?
I would like to understand this..


Compare Stanford's empty course that is expensive with the sylabus that I have on Mathematiques Speciales M from having studied anonymously -no legacy, no affirmative action American garbage, just anonymously, free of charge, on personal merit- in France.


Still Stanford graduates had some quite result in various fields of science.
Wanna a list?


The starkest difference between French's brainy and U.S.' brainless systems is rendered by Eve Curie, daughter of Polish born and French educated scientist Marie Curie:

Marie Curie considered U.S.' universities to be made of buffoons.

Quote, please.
Also, I beg to note that Marie Curie lived in the late late 1800s early 1900s

[Ion]

OK.
But, do not you think that, the US, at the moment, is the number one in fields such as:
- mechanical engineering
- electronic engineering
- optics
- pharma
- ..
do not you think that this may be due also to the US education?
...

No.

I said it:

it's due to skilled high tech immigrants and their standards.

[Ion]

...Quote, please.
Also, I beg to note that Marie Curie lived in the late late 1800s early 1900s
I will look for the book again at the library.

[Matteo Martini]

Einstein was not a mathematician.
I put him in there to show that he used mathematician Poincare's topology, as proof of how important Poincare's topology is.

More important than U.S. endeavors.
And I gave U.S.' invasion of Guatemala as a proof of U.S.'s waste in endeavors.


OK.
I did not use Einstein as an example for that


I go by more than Fields prize.
The Fields prize is more elitist than Nobel's, but the most elitist thing is what endures the trial of time in succeeding, which is mathematicians that are proved to be useful in Engineering books.

Most Fields' prizes won't make it in Engineering books, proof of them being of academia or trivia value, but not of applicability to any human progress in applied physics and Engineering.

OK, but the examples of mathematicians you gave me, they were all very very old ( 150 to 200 years old, or more ).
At that time, the US was still a very new nation.
Now, I ask you, which is tha nation which propelled the stronger breacktrhoughs in:
- space engineering
- optics
- electronic engineering
- microprocessors
- ..

Thanks

[Ziggurat]

He is the one who approximates trigonometric functions (like sin x) when x is near 0 to polynomials (like x-x(cube)/3!+x(five)/5!-x(seven)/7!-...).

The Taylor expansion of trigonomic functions isn't an approximation. It's only if you use a finite number of terms in the expansion that it becomes an approximation.

[Matteo Martini]

The Taylor expansion of trigonomic functions isn't an approximation. It's only if you use a finite number of terms in the expansion that it becomes an approximation.

What is this " Le Galois " have to do, with Taylor` s expansion??

[stilicho]

Civilization, including education.

Let's take a look at John McEnroe's You cannot be serious studying at Stanford (U.S.) in page 76:

"...I'll freely admit that academics was not my forte...I said to myself "I have to find out what what the athletes take."...In "Sleep, Narcolepsy, and Politics," I was actually able to get an A by playing a charity tennis exhibition. The most memorable was my exposition course: The teacher walked in, stared at us worldlessly for fifteen minutes -it felt like an eternity- and finally said, "I'll bet you're wondering what the requirements for this course are. There is no midterm, no final exam, and there are no papers." This was more like it!..."

Now consider what happens with this stupidity when the graduate of such American diploma mill is someone who who has social power to Shock and Awe innocent populations.
Like Bush who was admitted on legacy and money -not on brain- at Yale and Harvard, and who undertakes to bomb Iraq and lie (with dumb Americans gleefully believing that this is 'patriotic').
That's scary.

Compare Stanford's empty course that is expensive with the sylabus that I have on Mathematiques Speciales M from having studied anonymously -no legacy, no affirmative action American garbage, just anonymously, free of charge, on personal merit- in France.

The starkest difference between French's brainy and U.S.' brainless systems is rendered by Eve Curie, daughter of Polish born and French educated scientist Marie Curie:

Marie Curie considered U.S.' universities to be made of buffoons.
Eesh...that's harsh. Consider this:

Stanford's current community of scholars includes:

18 Nobel laureates
4 Pulitzer Prize winners
24 MacArthur Fellows
21 recipients of the National Medal of Science
3 National Medal of Technology recipients
228 members of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences
135 members of the National Academy of Sciences
83 National Academy of Engineering members
29 members of the National Academy of Education
44 American Philosophical Society members
7 Wolf Foundation Prize winners
7 winners of the Koret Foundation Prize
3 Presidential Medal of Freedom winnersProbably room for a tennis star, I think.

Source: http://www.stanford.edu/home/stanford/facts/faculty.html

Hard for me to figure out how any of this bears upon the original post but maybe that's just me. Is the theory that America gets into more wars abroad because you think they are stupider than the French? Or could it be that strong American commitment to security in Europe has prevented a major land war there for more than six decades--the first time in European history that such a long period of peace has been experienced?

[Ion]

OK.
...OK, but the examples of mathematicians you gave me, they were all very very old ( 150 to 200 years old, or more ).
At that time, the US was still a very new nation.
Now, I ask you, which is tha nation which propelled the stronger breacktrhoughs in:
- space engineering
- optics
- electronic engineering
- microprocessors
- ..

Thanks
150, 200 years ago U.S. existed.

You don't get a Poincare (France) in 4 years.

You get a Poincare in 100 years.

That's called the culture of a country.

For example French mathematicain Fourier started what it is now known as Fourier Transforms.

In the 19th. century, in Germany, the German school of mathematics produced a long lineage of mathematicians in the footsteps of Fourier.

Riemann, Gauss, Runge from Germany.

Up until 1958's Goertzel's (Germany) Fast Fourier Transform algorithm.

Goertzel's fast Fourier Transform is being used across U.S. in Dual Tone Multi Frequency Detection in Central Offices for detections of what buttons one presses on one's telephone.

From Riemann to Goertzel, that's more than 100 years of mathematical thought cultivated in the German culture.

Regarding:

"...Now, I ask you, which is tha nation which propelled the stronger breacktrhoughs in:
- space engineering
- optics
- electronic engineering
- microprocessors..."

you keep missing my point.

These are done in U.S. with an infusion of new blood from Socialist Europe.

They are not done in U.S.' culture with the U.S. culture.

In Space Engineering, read the contribution of German immigrant von Braun.

In Electronic Engineering and microprocessors, take Intel for example.
It's founded and kept to this day by a Hungarian immigrant.

Texas Instruments, Motorola have an abundance of Electrical Engineers educated in Socialist Europe that they import.
These Electrical Engineers, pillars of U.S. high tech, are not made locally in U.S..

In my experience, the U.S. Engineers are mainly technologists (like programming in Java, Visual Basic, C++) at about the level of a 2-year Community College in Europe (like Institut Universitaire de Technologie in France).
The Engineers from Europe are mainly scientists, with a clue about technology.

[Ion]

Something Impossible has happened.
Ion is making Oliver look like a intelligent guy.
I don't need to make Oliver intelligent.

He is intelligent.

You are not.

[Ion]

The Taylor expansion of trigonomic functions isn't an approximation. It's only if you use a finite number of terms in the expansion that it becomes an approximation.
You wanted to say infinite instead of finite.

infinite -but practically a huge- number of polynomial terms, do approximate a trigonometric function in the viccinity of 0.

When using a finite number of polynomial terms, it is an approximation to a more or less degree depending on how many polynomial terms one uses.

I have seen approximations of sin x to the first term, x.

[Ion]

All society awards:

(in Matteo's list of Fields prizes, there is Perelman who solved in 2003 the Second Fermat's conjecture, and beyond solving Fermat's conjecture he has refused the Fields society award as tainted by politics)
Eesh...that's harsh. Consider this:

Stanford's current community of scholars includes:

18 Nobel laureates
4 Pulitzer Prize winners
24 MacArthur Fellows
21 recipients of the National Medal of Science
3 National Medal of Technology recipients
228 members of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences
135 members of the National Academy of Sciences
83 National Academy of Engineering members
29 members of the National Academy of Education
44 American Philosophical Society members
7 Wolf Foundation Prize winners
7 winners of the Koret Foundation Prize
3 Presidential Medal of Freedom winnersProbably room for a tennis star, I think.

Source: http://www.stanford.edu/home/stanford/facts/faculty.html

Hard for me to figure out how any of this bears upon the original post but maybe that's just me...
I want to see one Stanford mathematicain in Engineering books, proof that beyond society awards, mathematics in U.S. contribute to civilization.

It won't happen.

But U.S. wars Iraq and maybe will war Iran, instead.

[Ion]

I rely on posters here to improve me mutha tongue. Same way I rely on Ion for an occasional dirty laugh.
You need to get an education equal to the European education, before you pipe a word here.

[Ion]

I will look for the book again at the library.
Madame Curie by Eve Curie writes in page 328 on how Marie Curie was perceived in U.S. when visiting it in 1921:

"...Above and beyond the frightened scientist, the American academia was acclaiming an attitude to life which surprised them deeply: the scorn for gain, devotion to an intellectual passion for excellence, and the desire to serve..."

There are many more such quotes, that I can dig upon re-reading the book.

If 1921 is too old, keep in mind that the culture of a country is not made in 4 years, but in more than a hundred.

McEnroe's quote and Bush's example, they show that today U.S. has a propensity for expensive diploma mills.

...
Bush, Bush, always Bush..
OK, Bush is an idiot, so what?
Does that mean that all the Americans are idiots?
I would like to understand this..
...

The problem in graduating airheads is that while some like McEnroe are harmless, others like Bush are harmful to the world.

Yeah, millions of Americans are idiots (they chose Bush, I outlined in my quote from the other thread the low standards in U.S., etc.).

[Ion]

...Hard for me to figure out how any of this bears upon the original post but maybe that's just me.
...

It bears on what matters in different cultures:

.) France cultivates and rewards the school of thought (in Poincare for example);

.) U.S. cultivates and rewards the school of primitive beating (in Iraq and Iran for example).

France is a sophisticated brainy country.

U.S. is a simpleton, barbaric and dangerous country to the world.

[RandFan]

.) U.S. cultivates and rewards the school of primitive beating (in Iraq and Iran for example).You bet.

You know what is really odd? People who are not American who are rather upset with America disagreeing with you.

:)

Life is good. Now I just need your shrill personal attack against me. Hey, could you call me a sick conservative?

[Ion]

...
Life is good.
...
Life is not good to thousands of dead, and thousands of future dead, due to the U.S.' attitude towards the world.
... Hey, could you call me a sick conservative?
Sick conservative.

[RandFan]

Life is not good to thousands of dead, and thousands of future dead, due to the U.S.' attitude towards the world.Yes, an appeal to emotion. It will always make your position correct.

BTW, what are you doing on an internet forum? There are people out there right now who are suffering and could use your help. There are homeless people. You could go and give them money or food and perhaps pay for them to have a hotel room.

How can you waste a single moment of precious time debating politics when you could be helping people right this very minute. Is your ego really more important than they?

Sick conservative. Thank you. :)

[stilicho]

All society awards:

(in Matteo's list of Fields prizes, there is Perelman who solved in 2003 the Second Fermat's conjecture, and beyond solving Fermat's conjecture he has refused the Fields society award as tainted by politics)

I want to see one Stanford mathematicain in Engineering books, proof that beyond society awards, mathematics in U.S. contribute to civilization.

It won't happen.

But U.S. wars Iraq and maybe will war Iran, instead.
You don't like the credentials of the professors at Stanford. OK, I understand that. After all, what quality could come in an education garnered from 18 Nobel Prize winners?

But, more to the point, do you figure that America gets involved in more wars abroad than the French because they are stupid?

[stilicho]

France cultivates and rewards the school of thought (in Poincare for example);
By the way, you neglected Louis de Broglie, who was both French and in the twentieth century. Unlike most of your examples. Could it be that you are so blinkered by your "education" and "culture" that you forget things a lot?

[Matteo Martini]

150, 200 years ago U.S. existed.


But the US were very young..


You don't get a Poincare (France) in 4 years.

You get a Poincare in 100 years.

That's called the culture of a country.

For example French mathematicain Fourier started what it is now known as Fourier Transforms.

In the 19th. century, in Germany, the German school of mathematics produced a long lineage of mathematicians in the footsteps of Fourier.

Riemann, Gauss, Runge from Germany.

Up until 1958's Goertzel's (Germany) Fast Fourier Transform algorithm.

Goertzel's fast Fourier Transform is being used across U.S. in Dual Tone Multi Frequency Detection in Central Offices for detections of what buttons one presses on one's telephone.

From Riemann to Goertzel, that's more than 100 years of mathematical thought cultivated in the German culture.


You still do not reply to me about that " Le Galois "..


Regarding:

"...Now, I ask you, which is tha nation which propelled the stronger breacktrhoughs in:
- space engineering
- optics
- electronic engineering
- microprocessors..."

you keep missing my point.

These are done in U.S. with an infusion of new blood from Socialist Europe.


??????????????
" Socialist Europe "?


They are not done in U.S.' culture with the U.S. culture.

In Space Engineering, read the contribution of German immigrant von Braun.

In Electronic Engineering and microprocessors, take Intel for example.
It's founded and kept to this day by a Hungarian immigrant.


Basically, all the people in the U.S. today, except all natives, are immigrants, or sons of immigrants, or grand-son of immigrants, etc.
Not particularly from Eastern Europe, though..



Texas Instruments, Motorola have an abundance of Electrical Engineers educated in Socialist Europe that they import.
These Electrical Engineers, pillars of U.S. high tech, are not made locally in U.S..


Do you have any evidence, that TI and Motorola import the majority ( or, an abundance ) of Engineers from Eastern Europe, companing to other places?


In my experience, the U.S. Engineers are mainly technologists (like programming in Java, Visual Basic, C++) at about the level of a 2-year Community College in Europe (like Institut Universitaire de Technologie in France).
The Engineers from Europe are mainly scientists, with a clue about technology.

Drat!!
Really strange, that many breakthroughs in science and technology happen in the US, and not in Eastern Europe..

[Matteo Martini]

Madame Curie by Eve Curie writes in page 328 on how Marie Curie was perceived in U.S. when visiting it in 1921:

"...Above and beyond the frightened scientist, the American academia was acclaiming an attitude to life which surprised them deeply: the scorn for gain, devotion to an intellectual passion for excellence, and the desire to serve..."

There are many more such quotes, that I can dig upon re-reading the book.

If 1921 is too old, keep in mind that the culture of a country is not made in 4 years, but in more than a hundred.


So, you are bashing the US educational system, because of a quote in a book wrote about 90 years ago..
Geeee....


Yeah, millions of Americans are idiots (they chose Bush, I outlined in my quote from the other thread the low standards in U.S., etc.).

What can you reply on this??
What about Romanians, who had Ceaucescu??

[Matteo Martini]

All society awards:

(in Matteo's list of Fields prizes, there is Perelman who solved in 2003 the Second Fermat's conjecture, and beyond solving Fermat's conjecture he has refused the Fields society award as tainted by politics)

I want to see one Stanford mathematicain in Engineering books, proof that beyond society awards, mathematics in U.S. contribute to civilization.


Most part of the classic Mechanical Engineering, and CAlculus, where developed in the 1800s.
As I said, let` s look at the breaktrhoughs from the and of WWII on..

[Flo]

IN short, Ion's a perfect nobody who can only hide this fact (from himself) through name-dropping and insults but has absolutely nothing to contribute to anything, if his participation in this forum is any example ...

I guess his former colleagues in France must be pretty relieved to know he's far away ... :D

[Matteo Martini]

I am waiting for him to reply..
Come on, Ion..

[Ion]

Yes, an appeal to emotion. It will always make your position correct.
...
Absolutely.

Drop the primitive beatings.

Learn mathematics and contribute to civilization.

[Ion]

You don't like the credentials of the professors at Stanford. OK, I understand that. After all, what quality could come in an education garnered from 18 Nobel Prize winners?
...
Not much.

Nobel is politics.

Nobel is even not for mathematics, there is no Nobel in mathematics.

What's the difference between a Pulitzer prize and a People Recognition Award?

None.

They are society awards.

Communist Maurer (Romania) got a People Recognition Award.

Impressive...

Irony aside, what transcends time is what is adopted in Engineering books as useful.
Newton's laws are not taught because they were rewarded socially.
No mentioning of social rewards is made in Engineering books regarding Newton's laws.
Newton's laws are taught because they work in mechanics.

So the test of mathematics is what is validated in Engineering books as being useful.

Again, there is not one American mathematician in Engineering books, since 1776 until today, sign of wrong values taught in U.S..

[Ziggurat]

Learn mathematics and contribute to civilization.

Learn mathematics. Definitely. Definitely learn mathematics...

http://www.scienceclarified.com/images/uesc_09_img0509.jpg

[Ion]

But the US were very young..



You still do not reply to me about that " Le Galois "..



??????????????
" Socialist Europe "?



Basically, all the people in the U.S. today, except all natives, are immigrants, or sons of immigrants, or grand-son of immigrants, etc.
Not particularly from Eastern Europe, though..




Do you have any evidence, that TI and Motorola import the majority ( or, an abundance ) of Engineers from Eastern Europe, companing to other places?



Drat!!
Really strange, that many breakthroughs in science and technology happen in the US, and not in Eastern Europe..
Matteo, you play dumb but you understood long ago:

you responded when I pointed out that Western Germany Chancellor was Socialist Willy Brandt, and you brought up Germany's left-wing Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder.

Eastern Europe was Communist.

Western and Northern Europe was and is (close to) Socialism.

Socialist Europe means Western and Northern Europe.

Stop playing dumb, pretending that you confuse Socialism and Communism.

[Ion]

So, you are bashing the US educational system, because of a quote in a book wrote about 90 years ago..
Geeee....



What can you reply on this??
What about Romanians, who had Ceaucescu??
90 years ago, U.S. had 141 years of existence.

Plenty of time to show some brains in mathematics.

(As for Romanians who had Ceausescu, Ceausescu was not elected by Romanians.
In January 1945, Roosevelt, Churchill and Stalin partitioned Europe at Yalta.
Romania (and other countries) fell under Stalin's U.S.S.R.'s influence.
Due to U.S.S.R.'s influence in Romania, U.S.S.R. forced Communist leaders like Dej, Maurer and Ceausescu.
So, Ceausescu is a by-product of Yalta.
But this is a paranthesis.)

I fail to see what Ceausescu (Romania) has to do with the U.S. lack of mathematics and France's emphasis on it.

[Ziggurat]

So the only test of quality in mathematics is what is validated in Engineering books as being useful.

Most of the math required for engineering was developed by the 19th century. You'd be hard-pressed to find any 20th century mathematicians of any nationality in engineering texbooks. But engineering is not the be-all and end-all of applied mathematics - in fact, it's not even the cutting edge. Physics is. But then, you're not a physicist, you're ignorant of physics, so you pretend that engineering is the only test of the applicability of mathematics. You haven't fooled anyone.

[Ion]

Most part of the classic Mechanical Engineering, and CAlculus, where developed in the 1800s.
As I said, let` s look at the breaktrhoughs from the and of WWII on..
That's not true.

The Relativity is based on Poincare's mathematics.
20th. century.

The String Theory in France is now.
Most of the math required for engineering was developed by the 19th century. You'd be hard-pressed to find any 20th century mathematicians of any nationality in engineering texbooks. But engineering is not the be-all and end-all of applied mathematics - in fact, it's not even the cutting edge. Physics is. But then, you're not a physicist, you're ignorant of physics, so you pretend that engineering is the only test of the applicability of mathematics. You haven't fooled anyone.
Come on, don't pull a ZigguRat on me.

Poincare's topology is 20th. century, and the mathematics in the String Theory is now.

[Ion]

IN short, Ion's a perfect nobody who can only hide this fact (from himself) through name-dropping and insults but has absolutely nothing to contribute to anything, if his participation in this forum is any example ...

I guess his former colleagues in France must be pretty relieved to know he's far away ... :D

The stupid.

They are my friends.

[Ziggurat]

That's not true.

The Relativity is based on Poincare's mathematics.
20th. century.

The String Theory in France is now.

Come on, don't pull a ZiguuRat on me.

Poincare's topology is 20th. century, and the mathematics in the String Theory is now.

Evidently, you don't understand the difference between geometry and topology. There is absolutely nothing special about the topology of special relativity. It is as trivial as the topology of Newtonian physics. It is the geometry which is of interest. And Poincare's contribution was not the development of any new math, but the identification of the correct equations (which were quite simple compared to the later application of Reimann's geometry ideas to general relativity - and Reimann was much earlier than Poincare). Like I said, you don't know physics.

[Ion]

You don't know topology, ZigguRat.

Not surprising.

You are an American.

Contraction of time, widening of space, that's using topology's Banach.

Invented by Poincare.

(Riemann -note, there is no Reimann like you wrote, let me guess, you must be an American- was contributing in something else, and in 19th. century:

.) in surfaces in the integral calculus,
-for example, tell me what's the integral from minus infinity to plus infinity of (sinx)/x ?-

.) in Fourier Transforms, and in Fourier Series,
-there are differences between Transforms and Series, but this is a mercy post from me to you)

[Ziggurat]

You don't know topology, ZigguRat.

Not surprising.

You are an American.

Contraction of distances, widening of time, that's using topology's Banach.

No, that is geometry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geometry). Topology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topology) is not the same thing. And Banach (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stefan_Banach) has nothing to do with any of this. He didn't start his work until after special relativity was already developed.

[Ion]

Then learn.

I know I am right and degreed on this.

This:

"...He is considered to be one of the founders of the field of topology. Poincaré introduced the modern principle of relativity... Thus he obtained perfect invariance of all of Maxwell's equations, the final step in the formulation of the theory of special relativity..."

is from:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henri_Poincar%C3%A9

Go ahead, Rat, backpedal now.

[Ziggurat]

.) in surfaces in the integral calculus,
-for example, tell me what's the integral from minus infinity to plus infinity of (sinx)/x ?-

Silly Ion. The answer is pi. Next time, at least pick a problem whose solution isn't trivial to locate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_integrals#Definite_integrals_lacking_clos ed-form_antiderivatives) even for those with minimal math background.

[Ion]

Silly Ion. The answer is pi. Next time, at least pick a problem whose solution isn't trivial to locate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_integrals#Definite_integrals_lacking_clos ed-form_antiderivatives) even for those with minimal math background.
Silly Rat,

your knowledge comes from the Table of Integrals which you parrot.

What you can't parrot is a profound education, beyond a table:

the integral is not calculated by the method of parties, but by 19th. century's Riemann (not your illiterate Reimann) surfaces.

That's Riemann's work, in the measurement of surfaces for integrals, not in topology.

[Ziggurat]

"...He is considered to be one of the founders of the field of topology. Poincaré introduced the modern principle of relativity... Thus he obtained perfect invariance of all of Maxwell's equations, the final step in the formulation of the theory of special relativity..."

Did it ever occur to you that maybe his contributions to topology and to relativity were two different accomplishments? No, I guess it didn't.

Go ahead, Rat, backpedal now.

Bwahahahahaha!

[Ion]

Did it ever occur to you that maybe fhis contributions to topology and to relativity were two different accomplishments? No, I guess it didn't.
....

Not only it didn't occur to me and to mathematicians, but it doesn't occur to me and to mathematicians.

To:
...And Poincare's contribution was not the development of any new math,...
and to:

...
Bwahahahahaha!
From:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henri_Poincar%C3%A9

"...He is considered to be one of the founders of the field of topology..."

[Ion]

So, this being Poincare, where is one American mathematician in Engineering books?

[Ziggurat]

Not only it didn't occur to me and to mathematicians, but it doesn't occur to me and to mathematicians.

and:

Wow, you really don't get it. His contribution to relativity wasn't any new math. I guess you can't figure anything out if it isn't spelled out in great detail. And even when you're beaten senseless with a cluebat you still can't figure it out. Special relativity isn't about topology. It's about geometry. And if you had any idea about what those terms meant and what relativity is, you'd know that. But you're clueless, and you don't know physics (which is why you always fall back on "engineering").

[Ion]

...Special relativity isn't about topology. It's about geometry. And if you had any idea about what those terms meant and what relativity is, you'd know that. But you're clueless, and you don't know physics (which is why you always fall back on "engineering").
Poincare's contribution to relativity was through topology.

From:

http://www.iop.org/EJ/abstract/0264-9381/18/24/302

titled:

A note on the topology of space–time in special relativity

(contrary to Rat-the-Uneducated, who wrote that Poincare's relativity and topology are different achievements:

Did it ever occur to you that maybe his contributions to topology and to relativity were two different accomplishments?...

...Special relativity isn't about topology. It's about geometry...

I bet Rat parroted an American consultant to him, a so-called 'specialist' in mathematics in U.S., before trying to tackle me with his posts, but both of them are uneducated, one thinking of being a U.S. 'specialist' in mathematics and another one -a Rat- parroting that U.S. 'specialist'.

)


"...Poincare semigroup for relativistic symmetries (and asymmetries)..."

Man, Americans are daft...

[Matteo Martini]

Matteo, you play dumb but you understood long ago:

you responded when I pointed out that Western Germany Chancellor was Socialist Willy Brandt, and you brought up Germany's left-wing Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder.


I was pointing out that sometimes left-wing policies do not seem to work


Eastern Europe was Communist.

Western and Northern Europe was and is (close to) Socialism.

Socialist Europe means Western and Northern Europe.


Sarkozy is not a socialist
Merkel is not a socialist
Berlusconi is ( was ) not a socialist
Aznar was not..
..

[Matteo Martini]

Matteo, you play dumb but you understood long ago:


Please, reply to me about " Le Galois "..

[Matteo Martini]

90 years ago, U.S. had 141 years of existence.

Plenty of time to show some brains in mathematics.


You just quoted a passage from a book.
Irrelevant..


(As for Romanians who had Ceausescu, Ceausescu was not elected by Romanians.
In January 1945, Roosevelt, Churchill and Stalin partitioned Europe at Yalta.
Romania (and other countries) fell under Stalin's U.S.S.R.'s influence.
Due to U.S.S.R.'s influence in Romania, U.S.S.R. forced Communist leaders like Dej, Maurer and Ceausescu.
So, Ceausescu is a by-product of Yalta.
But this is a paranthesis.)

I fail to see what Ceausescu (Romania) has to do with the U.S. lack of mathematics and France's emphasis on it.

Ceaucescu was not elected by Romanians, but many ROmanians supported him.
They were all idiots?

[Matteo Martini]

That's not true.

The Relativity is based on Poincare's mathematics.
20th. century.


And, Poincare` s mathematics, is based on Algebra, developed about 500+ years ago, not in France..

[Matteo Martini]

So, this being Poincare, where is one American mathematician in Engineering books?

well..
Microprocessors: Gordon Moore
Lasers: Arthur Leonard Schawlow
Information theory: Claude Elwood Shannon
Informatics: James Gosling
Aviation: Wright brothers

just to name a few..

[Ziggurat]

A note on the topology of space–time in special relativity

Did you stumble upon this by just typing "topology" and "special relativity"? Why, I think you did (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=topology+special+relativity&btnG=Google+Search).

I looked at that paper. Let me quote from it a bit (bolding mine):

It is the accepted point of view that Einstein’s special theory of relativity is above all a theory of time. In some sense, the theory ‘unifies’ space and time into a single entity, a four-dimensional space–time, and a physical event is catalogued by a point (x0, x) in this space–time. The new notion of time, though quite different from the preceding Newtonian time, still has the reversible, symmetric property of the latter. More precisely, time in relativity is assumed to be modelled by the Euclidean real line, and as such is reversible and symmetric in the sense that the Euclidean real line is a Lie group under addition. Within its topological and algebraic structure, there is no natural way to define a flow of time in the four-dimensional space–time of special relativity.

What does that mean: It means the topology of special relativity isn't special. Now let me quote some more:

The main technical result we present in this paper is a topological structure for the space–time of special relativity that allows for asymmetric time evolutions. Further, this topological structure is introduced in a manner completely consistent with the tenets of special relativity—in particular, without contradicting any of the experimental tests confirming special relativity. However, the new topology provides a better framework for the time-asymmetric quantum theories, such as those developed in [1–5], in that it endows the structure of a topological semigroup on the set of space–time translations and consequently leads to a Poincar´e semigroup for relativistic symmetries (and asymmetries).

Note that the topology they propose is new. It is not part of the existing theory of special relativity. Furthermore, the "Poincare semigroup" you allude to is for symmetries of the "set of space-time translations", not for the space itself. And since that is perhaps not explicit enough for you, let me quote once again from your source:

The space–time of special relativity is assumed to be a four-dimensional manifold M. It has the topology of R4, the four-dimensional Euclidean space.

There you have it: your own source confirms that the topology of special relativity is not what makes it different.

[Darth Rotor]

But you're clueless, and you don't know physics (which is why you always fall back on "engineering").
Of course, engineering is the practical application of physics to do something useful, rather than delve into fascinating esoterica, so let's not be shy about showing a little love to the engineers, eh?

"I'm a ramblin' wreck from Georgia Tech
And a hell of an engineer"

Without engineers, Igor Sikorksy's vision of helicopters as a practical flying machine would still be on a scrap of paper. (Yes, helicopters are parctical flying machines, comments in my sig considered! :) )


It took a few EE's to get all these nifty computers into the state they are in, eh? EE's who make, via their contribution, this whole conversation possible.

:D

DR

[Ziggurat]

Of course, engineering is the practical application of physics to do something useful, rather than delve into fascinating esoterica, so let's not be shy about showing a little love to the engineers, eh?

Oh engineers in general are great folk. And I'd much rather the guy who designed the brakes in my car understood mundane facts like the durability of various steel alloys than the finer points of quantum chromodynamics. Engineering can also be far more unforgiving of mistakes than most of physics, so comparisons regarding difficulty between the fields aren't merely about how fancy the math gets either. My point really isn't to belittle engineering, I'm really just trying to lay the smackdown on Ion for his arrogance and ignorance.

[Ion]

I was pointing out that sometimes left-wing policies do not seem to work



Sarkozy is not a socialist
Merkel is not a socialist
Berlusconi is ( was ) not a socialist
Aznar was not..
..
By American standards, Sarkozy is a Socialist.

His Foreign Minister, Bernard Kouchner, was registered until recently in France in the Socialist party.

[Ion]

Please, reply to me about " Le Galois "..
I did.

You brown nose U.S..

[dudalb]

God,Ion,are you trying to alienate everybody on this Board?

[Ion]

You just quoted a passage from a book.
Irrelevant..



Ceaucescu was not elected by Romanians, but many ROmanians supported him.
They were all idiots?
I don't know how quoting passages from books is irrelevant.

It's relevant.

Regarding the Romanians who supported Ceausescu, yes, they were idiot crooks.

I didn't.
But I was a kid, who wasn't fooled.

[dudalb]

IN short, Ion's a perfect nobody who can only hide this fact (from himself) through name-dropping and insults but has absolutely nothing to contribute to anything, if his participation in this forum is any example ...

I guess his former colleagues in France must be pretty relieved to know he's

far away ... :D

Yeah,but it tough for us in California.
BTW I notice that Ion hates the US but he is still here raking in the bucks.
Can you say..hypocrite?

[Ion]

And, Poincare` s mathematics, is based on Algebra, developed about 500+ years ago, not in France..
Algebra was developed by...gasp...the ancestors of Iraqis ( the ancestors of the same Iraqis that Bush Shocks and Awes now into graveyards), the Mesopotamians.

[Ion]

well..
Microprocessors: Gordon Moore
Lasers: Arthur Leonard Schawlow
Information theory: Claude Elwood Shannon
Informatics: James Gosling
Aviation: Wright brothers

just to name a few..
...and the one American mathematician in Engineering books is?

[Ion]

I think you show too much of lawyer education instead of a mathematics education:
Did you stumble upon this by just typing "topology" and "special relativity"? Why, I think you did (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=topology+special+relativity&btnG=Google+Search).

I looked at that paper. Let me quote from it a bit (bolding mine):



What does that mean: It means the topology of special relativity isn't special. Now let me quote some more:



Note that the topology they propose is new. It is not part of the existing theory of special relativity. Furthermore, the "Poincare semigroup" you allude to is for symmetries of the "set of space-time translations", not for the space itself. And since that is perhaps not explicit enough for you, let me quote once again from your source:



There you have it: your own source confirms that the topology of special relativity is not what makes it different.
To your ignorant "...Furthermore, the "Poincare semigroup" you allude to is for symmetries of the "set of space-time translations", not for the space itself...", I posted this:

...

Contraction of time, widening of space, that's using topology's Banach.

Invented by Poincare.
...

But again, you don't know the Lagrange polynomials approximating trigonometric function when you confuse finite and infinite, Riemann that you confuse with Reimann and topology, etc..
...My point really isn't to belittle engineering, I'm really just trying to lay the smackdown on Ion for his arrogance and ignorance.
But you need a profound education first.

Not Wikipedia, lawyering, Americanese...

[Ion]

...
It took a few EE's to get all these nifty computers into the state they are in, eh? EE's who make, via their contribution, this whole conversation possible.

:D

DR
See that your incorrect WMD's instead of the correct WMDs wasn't a typo?

Here you type the incorrect EE's instead of the correct EEs.

Like if -according to you- the plural of car is car's.

I am an Electrical Engineer, registered as a Professional Engineer in the Electrical Engineering branch.

[Ziggurat]

...and the one American mathematician in Engineering books is?

Although Matteo didn't really distinguish who was and who wasn't a mathematician, there's one in that very list that he gave: Claude Shannon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claude_E._Shannon). He appears in plenty of engineering books. I'm looking at one on my shelf right now: Horowitz & Hill's classic "The Art of Electronics".

[Ziggurat]

But you need a profound education first.

Not Wikipedia, lawyering, Americanese...

That's pretty funny, coming from a guy who just took the first google hit with the words he was searching for, and tried to use it to back up his point without having a clue about what it actually meant. Let me take yet another quote from your source (http://www.iop.org/EJ/abstract/0264-9381/18/24/302):

In fact, what is at the heart of all experimentally observable predictions of special relativity is this metric structure, and not the topological structure of M, which is Euclidean.

The metric of a manifold is a property of its geometry, not it's topology.

[Ion]

Although Matteo didn't really distinguish who was and who wasn't a mathematician,...
None of Matteo's are American mathematicians in Engineering books.

[Ion]

That's pretty funny, coming from a guy who just took the first google hit with the words he was searching for,...
Really?

Do I need to remind you of your Reimann (not Riemann, but your home made Reimann)?

What about you confusing finite and infinite in Lagrange polynomials?

Man, get a real education...

...
The metric of a manifold is a property of its geometry, not it's topology.
Says who?

You.

You know squat.

It's topology.

Topology uses geometry (like different fields intermingle) but it remains topology.

You don't know what topology is.

But for the illiterate you are it is spelled topology in that article.

[Ziggurat]

None of Matteo's are American mathematicians in Engineering books.

Claude Shannon is an American. He's a mathematician. He appears in "The Art of Electronics" by Horowitz and Hill. And that's an engineering book. Ergo, you're a liar.

[Ion]

Claude Shannon is an American. He's a mathematician. He appears in "The Art of Electronics" by Horowitz and Hill. And that's an engineering book. Ergo, you're a liar.
Prove it.

I read about him.

He is not a mathematician, unless mathematics to you is 0+0=0, 0+1=1, 1+1=0.

He reminds me of Political Science in U.S., an oxymoron.

[Ziggurat]

Really?

Do I need to remind you of your Reimann (not Riemann, but your home made Reimann)?

God, you're a sanctimonious twat. Yeah, I misspelled a name. Big friggin deal (oh no, I don't think "friggin" is a proper word either!). How pathetic do you have to be when that's the only criticism you can actually back up? I see you've been reduced to trying to attack Darth on the same basis too. How pathetic.

What about finite and infinite in Lagrange polynomials?

Indeed, what about them?

It's topology.

Topology uses geometry (like different fields intermingle) but it remains topology.

And yet, there's a reason the two terms are different. Two manifolds can have the same topology but different intrinsic geometries, and they can also have the same intrinsic geometry but different topologies. As your own source indicated, topology is not what separates special relativity from Newtonian physics. The topology of a manifold does not determine the metric of that manifold, and it's the metric which differentiates special relativity from Newtonian physics. How pathetic do you have to be to have your very own source directly contradict you? You still haven't addressed those explicit statements by your own source.

[Ziggurat]

Prove it.

I read about him in Wikipedia.

He is not a mathematician.

He reminds me of Political Science, an oxymoron.

Bwahahahahaha! You're really getting desparate, aren't you?

[Ion]

God, you're a sanctimonious twat. Yeah, I misspelled a name...
You didn't mispell.

You haven't learn it.

Including his contribution to surface measurements, like in the integral of (sin x)/x.

[Ion]

Bwahahahahaha! You're really getting desparate, aren't you?
No.

By the way, in English is desperate, not desparate.

Keep up the learning...

[Ion]

...The topology of a manifold does not determine the metric of that manifold,...
Mathematic proof for this lawyering blabber?

[Ion]

Yeah,but it tough for us in California.
BTW I notice that Ion hates the US but he is still here raking in the bucks.
Can you say..hypocrite?
No, I can't.

I freely admit I conquer and exploit U.S..

I am:

Conquistador

[Ziggurat]

Mathematic proof for this lawyering blabber?

All this information is in the links I gave you before, but apparently you couldn't figure out the definitions of words even having been told what they are. Well, I guess you can always brag that you know how to spell, even if you've got no clue about meaning. How impressive.

A coffee cup and a donut have the same topology, but different geometries (go look at the wikipedia animation if you have trouble understanding why). A ring and a mobius strip can have the same intrinsic geometry (Euclidean) but they always have different topologies. R2 defines a single topology. But if I use a Euclidean metric on R2, that gives it a different geometry than if I use a hyperbolic metric (ala special relativity).

[Ion]

...
A coffee cup and a donut have the same topology, but different geometries (go look at the wikipedia animation if you have trouble understanding why). A ring and a mobius strip can have the same intrinsic geometry (Euclidean) but they always have different topologies. R2 defines a single topology. But if I use a Euclidean metric on R2, that gives it a different geometry than if I use a hyperbolic metric (ala special relativity).
This proves nothing, and nothing against what I said.

You just flood the Internet with noise.

You said that Poincare didn't invent any new math.
Wrong.
He is a founder of the topology.
His topology is used in special relativity.
Which you didn't know until I told you here.

You said that Reimann -meaning Riemann- was into topology.
He was into surface calculations.

You confused finite and infinite in Lagrange polynomial approximations of trigonometric functions.

You bring in a pathetic Shannon as an American mathematician in Engineering books.

[Darth Rotor]

I am an Electrical Engineer, registered as a Professional Engineer in the Electrical Engineering branch.
That does not preclude you from being an asshat. Congrats on your immense versatility.

DR

[Ion]

That does not preclude you from being an asshat. Congrats on your immense versatility.

DR
Well, I got to deal with Americans and fans of Americans here, right?

[Ziggurat]

You said that Poincare didn't invent any new math.

No, I did not say that.

He is a founder of the topology.
His topology is used in special relativity.

Uh, no. As your own source points out, special relativity uses R4, which has the same topology as Newtonian space-time. It's the geometry (the metric) which is different. It is not possible for Poincare to have invented the topology of relativity, because the topology of special relativity is exactly the same as for Newtonian mechanics.

You said that Reimann -meaning Riemann- was into topology.
He wasn't.

No, I didn't say that, liar. Let's look at what I actually said (bolding added for emphasis):

Evidently, you don't understand the difference between geometry and topology. There is absolutely nothing special about the topology of special relativity. It is as trivial as the topology of Newtonian physics. It is the geometry which is of interest. And Poincare's contribution was not the development of any new math, but the identification of the correct equations (which were quite simple compared to the later application of Reimann's geometry ideas to general relativity - and Reimann was much earlier than Poincare). Like I said, you don't know physics.

Note that I explicitly stated that topology and geometry aren't the same thing, and that it was Riemann's geometry ideas which were central to general relativity. So why do you now claim that I said Riemann was into topology, when I did not say that? You are, once again, a liar.

[Matteo Martini]

By American standards, Sarkozy is a Socialist.

His Foreign Minister, Bernard Kouchner -I am not sure of the spelling- was registered until recently in France in the Socialist party.

Where did you note that Sarkozy is a socialist?
He is in good relationships with Bush, anyway..
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2007/08/15/do1505.xml

And, Berlusconi was too..

[Matteo Martini]

...and the one American mathematician in Engineering books is?

All the mathematicians you quoted, were living in the 18th or 19th century, if not earlier.
I admit that, in the 18th and 19th century, America was not at the top, as mathematics.
If you speak about tech in the 20th century, things change..

[Matteo Martini]

I did.


Where?

[Ion]

Where?
Where I said that Le Galois proved there are no square root solutions to equations of the third degree or higher.

[Matteo Martini]

Algebra was developed by...gasp...the ancestors of Iraqis ( the ancestors of the same Iraqis that Bush Shocks and Awes now into graveyards), the Mesopotamians.

Not by the French, you see?

[Matteo Martini]

Where I said that Le Galois proved there are no square root solutions to equations of the third degree or higher.

I may be wrong/ignorant, but, what is the given name, of this guy?

[Ion]

All the mathematicians you quoted, were living in the 18th or 19th century, if not earlier.
I admit that, in the 18th and 19th century, America was not at the top, as mathematics.
If you speak about tech in the 20th century, things change..
Poincare lived in the 20th. century.

I point out that U.S. is on the wrong path for things to change.
Not by the French, you see?
So?

On a related note, you brown nose U.S..
I may be wrong/ignorant, but, what is the given name, of this guy?
I don't know.

It's the Le Galois Theorem as I remember it, and as it is listed in my transcripts.

[Ziggurat]

I don't know.

And you're apparently unable to find the answer either. His first name was Évariste.

[Ion]

And you're apparently unable to find the answer either. His first name was Évariste.
Evariste Galois:

wrong century, wrong name, wrong work,

for Le Galois.

[Matteo Martini]

And you're apparently unable to find the answer either. His first name was Évariste.

This is not the one Ion is talking about, apparently..

[Ziggurat]

This is not the one Ion is talking about, apparently..

I'll believe that when he can produce the right one. But considering how he lies about what can easily be confirmed by looking through this very thread, I'm not about to take his word for it that he's really refering to someone else.

[Matteo Martini]

Poincare lived in the 20th. century.


Poincare, lived from 1854 to 1912, so, I would say, not really into the 20th century ( not completely, at least ).
But, I agree, that until the 1900s, the U.S. were not in the front part for science..


So?

On a related note, you brown nose U.S..


I was pointing out, that, in diffeerent centuries, different countries were in the front end for science, maths, and so on..


I don't know.

It's the Le Galois Theorem as I remember it, and as it is listed in my transcripts.

I think you got confused with Evariste Galois, as there seem to be no mathematician called " Le Galois "..

[Matteo Martini]

I'll believe that when he can produce the right one. But considering how he lies about what can easily be confirmed by looking through this very thread, I'm not about to take his word for it that he's really refering to someone else.

I am not giving up on this..

[Elizabeth I]

You didn't mispell.

You haven't learn it.

"You haven't learned it." Or, in British spelling, "You haven't learnt it."

[Darth Rotor]

By American standards, Sarkozy is a Socialist.

His Foreign Minister, Bernard Kouchner, was registered until recently in France in the Socialist party.
Hi, Ion, I'd like you to wallow in this European utterance for a moment.

http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSL2760582320070827
PARIS (Reuters) - French President Nicolas Sarkozy said on Monday a diplomatic push by the world's powers to rein in Tehran's nuclear programme was the only alternative to "an Iranian bomb or the bombing of Iran".
==snip==
Sarkozy said a nuclear-armed Iran would be unacceptable and that major powers should continue their policy of incrementally increasing sanctions against Tehran while being open to talks if Iran suspended nuclear activities.

"This initiative is the only one that can enable us to escape an alternative that I say is catastrophic: the Iranian bomb or the bombing of Iran," he said, adding that it was the worst crisis currently facing the world.
Granted, what he says can be assigned to the category of "political rhetoric," but is along the same lines as President Bush's recent repetition of the prospect of the use of force against Iran.

DR

[Ion]

No, I did not say that.
...
August 27 you posted this:
...Poincare's contribution was not the development of any new math,...
I replied with a link showing that Poincare is a founder of topology.

Of course you don't know, U.S. is helpless in education.

But you are also liying.

Your only 'asset' when discussing above your head and education, is to bring lawyer type of arguments to flood a scientific topic.

[Ion]

I'll believe that when he can produce the right one...
You believe what?

I remind you the issue is to produce one American mathematician in Engineering books.

I know that U.S. does produce plenty of wars, but can U.S. produce one mathematician in Engineering books?
(feeble try with your Shannon, though)

If 19th. century is too little time for U.S., then consider the 20th. century.

Demonstrably France has Poincare from 20th. century.

[Ion]

Poincare, lived from 1854 to 1912, so, I would say, not really into the 20th century ( not completely, at least ).
But, I agree, that until the 1900s, the U.S. were not in the front part for science..
...
From:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henri_Poincar%C3%A9

"...Poincaré introduced the modern principle of relativity and was the first to present the Lorentz transformations in their modern symmetrical form. Poincaré discovered the remaining relativistic velocity transformations and recorded them in a letter to Lorentz in 1905..."

That's 20th. century work.

[Ion]

"You haven't learned it." Or, in British spelling, "You haven't learnt it."
Thanks, fatso.

What's cos(a+b) off the top of your head, without looking for help?

Never mind education like this, keep on blabbering in a cell phone because someone (not you or an American) designs cell phones.

[Ion]

Hi, Ion, I'd like you to wallow in this European utterance for a moment.

http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSL2760582320070827

Granted, what he says can be assigned to the category of "political rhetoric," but is along the same lines as President Bush's recent repetition of the prospect of the use of force against Iran.

DR
I am wary of the new leaders in France (Sarkozy) and Germany (Merkel).

I liked when Chirac and Schroeder treated Bush and fans like aberrations.

[Darth Rotor]

I am wary of the new leaders in France (Sarkozy) and Germany (Merkel).

I liked when Chirac and Schroeder treated Bush and fans like aberrations.
Understood, given your emotional stance.

Why do you think Schroeder wasn't able to sustain his popular appeal?

DR

[Ziggurat]

August 27 you posted this:
Poincare's contribution was not the development of any new math,
I replied with a link showing that Poincare is a founder of topology.

Context matters. I already pointed out what you apparently weren't able to figure out, because you're clueless. Let me make explicit, since you apparently aren't able to pick up on context unless you're beaten over the head with it repeatedly (and likely not even then): Poincare's contribution to special relativity was not the development of any new math. You need to work on your reading skills.

But you are also liying.

Would it be unfair of me to point out your spelling mistake, seeing as how you have devoted several posts to that subject alone? See, when you do things like that and then turn around and make mistakes yourself, it betrays you for the pompous fool you are.

Your only 'asset' when discussing above your head and education, is to bring lawyer type of arguments to flood a scientific topic.

Apparently, pointing out facts is "lawyer type of arguments". Still upset about your own source proving you wrong? Being clueless about something like relativity is nothing to be ashamed of, but pretending that you know more about that subject than someone else when you so obviously don't is a recipe for humiliation. Not that you seem to ever notice how big a fool you make of yourself.

[Ion]

Understood, given your emotional stance.

Why do you think Schroeder wasn't able to sustain his popular appeal?

DR
I don't know.

I speculate that 5 million of unemployed wanted a change.

[Ion]

Context matters. I already pointed out what you apparently weren't able to figure out, because you're clueless.Blah...blah...blah...
The point is that:

.) France had Poincare in 20th. century;

.) Poincare is one of the founders of new mathematics, the topology;

.) Poicare's topology is used in physics, in relativity;

.) U.S. doeasn't have one mathematician like Poincare in Engineering books;

.) U.S. has other interests than this, like wars, Capitalism, and religion.

That's what I said and showed.

[Ziggurat]

.) Poicare's topology is used in physics, in relativity;

Nope. As already pointed out to you, and from your own source (I'm still savoring the irony of that, thanks), special relativity does not have any novel topology. It's simply the topology of R4 (do you know what that means?). His contributions were to the transforms, which are part of the metric of special relativity. That's geometry, not topology. Hell, even in general relativity, topology (as opposed to geometry) doesn't really make any appearance until you get to cosmology. Poincare's contributions to special relativity were indeed quite important, but you clearly don't understand what they actually were. But you just can't admit that when it comes to physics, the most you can do is pick the first link in google which matches the terms you think are relevant.

[Matteo Martini]

From:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henri_Poincar%C3%A9

"...Poincaré introduced the modern principle of relativity and was the first to present the Lorentz transformations in their modern symmetrical form. Poincaré discovered the remaining relativistic velocity transformations and recorded them in a letter to Lorentz in 1905..."

That's 20th. century work.

OK.

So what?

Basically, all the mathematicians you pointed out, were living in the 17th, 18th and 19th century, with the expection of Poincare, who did some notable things up to 1905.

America, became strong in the 20th century.

And I am still waiting for that reply from you about " Le Poincare` "

[Matteo Martini]

You believe what?
I know that U.S. does produce plenty of wars, but can U.S. produce one mathematician in Engineering books?
(feeble try with your Shannon, though)



Here you have a list of 400 American Mathematicians
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:American_mathematicians

Here there are some I know ( I get pardon, as my culture is so limited ), from science books:

Norbert Wiener (November 26, 1894, Columbia, Missouri – March 18, 1964, Stockholm Sweden) was an American theoretical and applied mathematician. He was a pioneer in the study of stochastic and noise processes, contributing work relevant to electronic engineering, electronic communication, and control systems. Wiener is also the founder of cybernetics, a field that formalizes the notion of feedback and has implications for engineering, systems control, computer science, biology, philosophy, and the organization of society.

George Bernard Dantzig (8 November 1914 – 13 May 2005) was an American mathematician who introduced the simplex algorithm and is considered the "father of linear programming". He was the recipient of many honors, including the National Medal of Science in 1975, and the John von Neumann Theory Prize in 1974.

[Matteo Martini]

Forgot:

John Forbes Nash, Jr. (born June 13, 1928) is an American mathematician who works in game theory, differential geometry, and partial differential equations, serving as a Senior Research Mathematician at Princeton University. He shared the 1994 Bank of Sweden Prize in Economic Sciences (also called the Nobel Prize in Economics) with two other game theorists, Reinhard Selten and John Harsanyi.

[Ion]

Nope. As already pointed out to you,...
And you are wrong.

I showed that he is a founder of topology which is used in relativity.

When you get a degree based on mathematics -which excludes your lawyering babble- come back.

[Ion]

Here you have a list of 400 American Mathematicians
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:American_mathematicians

Here there are some I know ( I get pardon, as my culture is so limited ), from science books:

Norbert Wiener (November 26, 1894, Columbia, Missouri – March 18, 1964, Stockholm Sweden) was an American theoretical and applied mathematician. He was a pioneer in the study of stochastic and noise processes, contributing work relevant to electronic engineering, electronic communication, and control systems. Wiener is also the founder of cybernetics, a field that formalizes the notion of feedback and has implications for engineering, systems control, computer science, biology, philosophy, and the organization of society.

George Bernard Dantzig (8 November 1914 – 13 May 2005) was an American mathematician who introduced the simplex algorithm and is considered the "father of linear programming". He was the recipient of many honors, including the National Medal of Science in 1975, and the John von Neumann Theory Prize in 1974.
Wiener is famous after studying at University of Gottingen in Germany, under the household name Hilbert.
Hilbert is another founder of topology.
So Wiener's excellence comes from education at University of Gottingen in Germany, not U.S..

Dantzig's education was influenced by his father, a student of Poincare in Paris.

To believe that the American standards match Socialist Europe's, you fool yourself, in spite of numerous data that show Europe being ahead.

For example The San Diego Union Tribune of December 7 2004 writes:

"Teens from two-thirds of the world's industrialized countries beat Americans on a scientific test.
"We're not as competitive as we need to be using the skills needed for on-the-job performance,", said Undersecretary Eugene Hickok of the Department of Education, which run the U.S. portion of the tests..."

and The San Diego Union Tribune of Thursday August 24, 2006 writes:

"Roughly one-third of Americans surveyed by a Michigan State University researcher say they do not believe in evolution...In Iceland, Denmark, Sweden, and France, for example, 80 percent or more of the surveyed adult population accept the idea of evolution..."

Combined with lack of hygiene in U.S. when diplaying obesity, lack of height (a study has the average whites in U.S. at 5'10", and in Holland at 6'1", in Czech Republic at 6'0", etc., due to better healthcare), the lack of education in U.S. compared to Socialist Europe is a sign that:

Capitalism with its individualism, doesn't work in civilization

[Ion]

Forgot:

John Forbes Nash, Jr. (born June 13, 1928) is an [B]American mathematician ...
That's silly.

Nash worked on a variation of Hungarian mathematician von Neumann's theorem.

Nash didn't get a Fields prize in mathematics, but the lesser one, Nobel in economy.

Prizes are society's awards like I said.

What's shown to be useful in books is better than society's awards.

You are slow to absorb what I say and follow up consistently.

The book A Beautiful Mind by Sylvia Naser, depicts Nash's life.
It proves what I say here.
That U.S. imports massively from Socialist Europe in order to build itself.
U.S. doesn't make good mathematicians locally.
M.I.T., Princeton, Rutgers are really barracks in the 1930s.
They import mathematicians like Lefschetz (France) to become Dean at Rutgers and build the mathematics department there.

[Matteo Martini]

Dantzig's education was influenced by his father, a student of Poincare in Paris.


Poincare and the society in which he grew up, was influenced by his ancestors, the Romans and the Gauls..

Anyway, still waiting for your reply about " Le Galois "..
Who is this man? Did some research..
I found no mathematician with that name, are you sure you are not wrong?

[Ion]

Poincare and the society in which he grew up, was influenced by his ancestors, the Romans and the Gauls...

So not by U.S..

[Matteo Martini]

That's silly.

Nash worked on a variation of Hungarian mathematicain von Neumann's theorem.

Nash didn't get a Fields prize in mathematics, but the lesser one, Nobel in economy.

Prizes are society's awards like I said.



I wish I could get one..


What's shown to be useful in books is better than society's awards.

You are slow to absorb what I say and follow up consistently.

The book A Beautiful Mind by Sylvia Naser, depicts Nash's life.
It proves what I say here.
That U.S. imports massively from Socialist Europe in order to build itself.
U.S. doesn't make locally.
M.I.T., Princeton, Rutgers are really barracks in the 1930s.
They import mathematicians like Leftschetz (France) to become Dean at Rutgers and build the mathematics department there.

You do not get the point.
All the mathematicians in the books you quoted, were making their works in the 19th, 18th century and before ( up to 1905 ).
America became in the front end of technology in the last 100 years, so, you will not find many mathematicians in the classical mathematics and engineering books, as the mathematicians in those books, almost all lived 100, 150, 200 or more years ago.

Also, when you say that America " imported " mathematicians from Europe, I beg to tell you, that America " imported " not only mathematicians, but some 95% of its current population from abroad, since, 400 years ago, there were basically only natives in the now-called U.S.

So, it is silly when you say that Dantzig was influenced by his father who lived in Paris, as, a vast majority of the American population of the early 1900s, had fathers, grand-fathers coming from abroad.

Also, waiting for a reply about " Le Galois "..

[Matteo Martini]

So not by U.S..

I frankly doubt that, at the time of the Romans and the Gauls, the U.S. could have influenced anyone, since the U.S. was founded about 1500 to 2000 years after their time..

[Ion]

...All the mathematicians in the books you quoted, were making their works in the 19th, 18th century and before ( up to 1905 ).
America became in the front end of technology in the last 100 years,...
Really?

You mean that this:

...
To believe that the American standards match Socialist Europe's, you fool yourself, in spite of numerous data that show Europe being ahead.

For example The San Diego Union Tribune of December 7 2004 writes:

"Teens from two-thirds of the world's industrialized countries beat Americans on a scientific test.
"We're not as competitive as we need to be using the skills needed for on-the-job performance,", said Undersecretary Eugene Hickok of the Department of Education, which run the U.S. portion of the tests..."

and The San Diego Union Tribune of Thursday August 24, 2006 writes:

"Roughly one-third of Americans surveyed by a Michigan State University researcher say they do not believe in evolution...In Iceland, Denmark, Sweden, and France, for example, 80 percent or more of the surveyed population accept the idea of evolution..."

Combined with lack of hygiene in U.S. when diplaying obesity, lack of height (a study has the average whites in U.S. at 5'10", and in Holland at 6'1", in Czech Republic at 6'0", etc., due to better healthcare), the lack of education in U.S. compared to Socialist Europe is a sign that:

Capitalism with its individualism, doesn't work in civilization
doesn't count?

You are wrong.

[Ion]

To:
...Also, when you say that America " imported " mathematicians from Europe, I beg to tell you, that America " imported " not only mathematicians, but some 95% of its current population from abroad, since, 400 years ago, there were basically only natives in the now-called U.S.
...

and to:
I frankly doubt that, at the time of the Romans and the Gauls, the U.S. could have influenced anyone, since the U.S. was founded about 1500 to 2000 years after their time..
Sure.

But what has U.S. ever done since its inception 233 years ago?

Other than Capitalism, wars, religion and Nobel 'prizes'?

[Ziggurat]

And you are wrong.

I showed that he is a founder of topology which is used in relativity.

No, you merely claimed that, despite evidence to the contrary, and with zero evidence to support it. Do you know how Poincare's contributions were connected to the metric of special relativity? No, you don't. You've got no idea what he contributed to special relativity, or its significance. Do you know why the metric of a manifold isn't the same thing as its topology? No, you don't. Hell, do you even understand what a metric or a manifold is? I seriously doubt it, and you've certainly provided no evidence that you do. You're a clueless idiot, with absolutely no understanding of physics. All you can do is use google and post the first link you come across, and then ignore it when that very source contradicts what you claim.

[Ion]

No, you merely claimed that, despite evidence to the contrary, and with zero evidence to support it.blah...blah...
I gave evidence that Poincare made new mathematics (in spite of your ignorance) used in relativity (in spite of your ignorance).

What can I expect from an American who thinks Reimann existed, confuses finite with infinite, doesn't know Riemann's contribution to integral of sinx/x?

[Ion]

...Also, waiting for a reply about " Le Galois "..
With Le Galois or without, my proof is done by Poincare.

Streamline, will you?

[Darth Rotor]

To:

and to:

Sure.

But what has U.S. ever done since its inception 233 years ago?

Other than Capitalism, wars, religion and Nobel 'prizes'?
Ever hear of an airplane? Brothers named Wright?

Ever hear of submarines, and a man named Holland?

Ever hear of a light bulb?

DR

[Matteo Martini]

With Le Galois or without, my proof is done by Poincare.

Streamline, will you?

So, maybe you were mistaken, when you spoke about this " Le Galois "?
Please, tell me..

[Matteo Martini]

To:

and to:

Sure.

But what has U.S. ever done since its inception 233 years ago?

Other than Capitalism, wars, religion and Nobel 'prizes'?

So, do we agree that, we have a reason why we do not find so many American mathematician in classical engineering books?

[Matteo Martini]

Really?

You mean that this:

doesn't count?

You are wrong.

I did not know that " displaying obesity " had anything to do with being a good scientist ( or not )

[Darth Rotor]

So, maybe you were mistaken, when you spoke about this " Le Galois "?
Please, tell me..
Meh, my favorite reference to Galois is as a brand of cigarettes.

Oh, wait, that was Gauloise. :D Sadly, they went the way of the dodo bird.

Rich coffin nails. :) Slightly better than Gitanes.

DR

[Matteo Martini]

But what has U.S. ever done since its inception 233 years ago?

Other than Capitalism, wars, religion and Nobel 'prizes'?

Virtually, started many, if not all, the hi-tech industries of today?

[Ziggurat]

I gave evidence that Poincare made new mathematics (in spite of your ignorance) used in relativity (in spite of your ignorance).

Clearly you didn't, since you claimed his contribution was topology, but as your own source points out, the topology of special relativity is no different than the topology of Newtonian physics. You've got no idea what topology means, do you?

What can I expect from an American who thinks Reimann existed,

Still on about that? God, you're a loser. It's a spelling mistake. You've shown in this same thread that you're hardly immune from them yourself. Idiot.

confuses finite with infinite,

I did nothing of the sort.

doesn't know Riemann's contribution to integral of sinx/x?

When did you ever ask about that? You didn't. You just asked what the actual integral was, and I gave you the answer.

[Matteo Martini]

Meh, my favorite reference to Galois is as a brand of cigarettes.

Oh, wait, that was Gauloise. :D

Better say, Gauloises


Sadly, they went the way of the dodo bird.

Rich coffin nails. :) Slightly better than Gitanes.

DR

I am starting losing interest in this thread.
I do have the suspicion that Ion can be just a cunny troll..

[Matteo Martini]

Another important American mathematician..

Carl Pomerance

Carl Pomerance (born in 1944 in Joplin, Missouri) is a well known number theorist. He attended college at Brown University and later received his PhD from Harvard University in 1972 for his study that any odd perfect number N has at least 7 distinct prime factors. He immediately joined the faculty at the University of Georgia, becoming full professor in 1982. He subsequently worked at Lucent Technologies for a number of years, and then became a Distinguished Professor at Dartmouth College.

He has won many teaching and research awards, including the Chauvenet Prize in 1985, MAA's distinguished university teaching award in 1997, and the Conant Prize in 2001. He has over 120 publications to his credit, including co-authorship with R. Crandall of Prime numbers: a computational perspective, Springer-Verlag, 2001, 2005. He is the inventor of one of the most important factorisation methods, the quadratic sieve algorithm, which was used in 1994 for the factorisation of RSA-129. He is also one of the discoverers of the Adleman-Pomerance-Rumely primality test.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Pomerance

[Ziggurat]

He has over 120 publications to his credit, including co-authorship with R. Crandall of Prime numbers: a computational perspective, Springer-Verlag, 2001, 2005.

Is that R. as in Richard? If so, I know the guy. Took a class by him once.

[Ion]

Ever hear of an airplane? Brothers named Wright?

Ever hear of submarines, and a man named Holland?

Ever hear of a light bulb?

DR
Yeah.

But not of American mathematicians.

[Ion]

So, maybe you were mistaken, when you spoke about this " Le Galois "?
Please, tell me..
No.

Just streamline.

There is nothing wrong with Poincare.
So, do we agree that, we have a reason why we do not find so many American mathematician in classical engineering books?
Yeah.

Low standards.
I did not know that " displaying obesity " had anything to do with being a good scientist ( or not )
It has to do with standards.

To be obese it to be unhygienic, stupid and obscene.
Virtually, started many, if not all, the hi-tech industries of today?
Not mathematics.

...
I do have the suspicion that Ion can be just a cunny troll..
But you are a troll and a brown noser to U.S..

[Ion]

Clearly you didn't, since...blah...blah...
Then how come you don't know mathematics?

[Ion]

Another important American mathematician..

Carl Pomerance

Carl Pomerance (born in 1944 in Joplin, Missouri) is a well known number theorist. He attended college at Brown University and later received his PhD from Harvard University in 1972 for his study that any odd perfect number N has at least 7 distinct prime factors. He immediately joined the faculty at the University of Georgia, becoming full professor in 1982. He subsequently worked at Lucent Technologies for a number of years, and then became a Distinguished Professor at Dartmouth College.

He has won many teaching and research awards, including the Chauvenet Prize in 1985, MAA's distinguished university teaching award in 1997, and the Conant Prize in 2001. He has over 120 publications to his credit, including co-authorship with R. Crandall of Prime numbers: a computational perspective, Springer-Verlag, 2001, 2005. He is the inventor of one of the most important factorisation methods, the quadratic sieve algorithm, which was used in 1994 for the factorisation of RSA-129. He is also one of the discoverers of the Adleman-Pomerance-Rumely primality test.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Pomerance
Good find.

But spring is not made with one flower.

The newspaper quotes I produced show a profound low level in education in U.S. compared to Europe.

[Matteo Martini]

No.

Just streamline.

There is nothing wrong with Poincare.


You first spoke out about this " Le Galois ", not the Evariste Galois.
I publicly ask you to tell me who this " Le Galois " is.


Yeah.

Low standards.


We were talking about a different thing.

[Matteo Martini]

Good find.

But spring is nat made with one flower.

If you have time, I can give you other examples..
BTW, how many flowers do you need to make a spring?

By the way..
Sorry to insist, but..
Who was that " Le Galois "??

[Matteo Martini]

Is that R. as in Richard? If so, I know the guy. Took a class by him once.

Do not know..
I came to know him, because he was quoted by a Canadian guy, who is trying to build the first world quantum computer..
I just found the quote in Wikipedia, where there is a list of 600+ Americanmathematicians, there..

[Ion]

If you have time, I can give you other examples..
BTW, how many flowers do you need to make a spring?
...
Millions.

Looks like the topics I brought up about mathematics (Group in Algebra, Topology, etc.) they are delicacies in U.S..

In France they are the norm.

Mathematiques Superieures, the first post secondary year, teaches them to thousands, as a standard, free of charge.

Evolution is accepted by less than 70% in U.S., but is accepted by more than 80% in Western Europe.

U.S. has long ways to go, to play catch up.

...
By the way..
Sorry to insist, but..
Who was that " Le Galois "??
What's wrong with Poincare?

[Matteo Martini]

Is that R. as in Richard? If so, I know the guy. Took a class by him once.

BTW.
Congratulations.
I wanted to ask, in what are you graduated?
I bet you already said, but I have probably overlooked it..

[Matteo Martini]

Millions.


So, I need to give you the name of millions of American mathematicians?


What's wrong with Poincare?

Nothing.
There is ( maybe ) a lot wrong with your " Le Galois "..

[Ion]

So, I need to give you the name of millions of American mathematicians?
...
Absolutely.

Not just geniuses like Poincare (France) and Pomerance (U.S.), but U.S. people who know off the top of their head what's cos(a+b), what's a Dirac function, how to solve Ricatti differential equations,

as opposed to cows who babble on cell phones developed in U.S. by educated, exploited immigrants.

That would show more enlightenment and education in U.S. than the usual broken record of stale Capitalism, wars (Iraq, Iran in waiting), and religion.

[Ziggurat]

Then how come you don't know mathematics?

Your presumptions of my ignorance aside, you're still the one who can't even figure out what topology is, and why the metric of a manifold is part of its geometry and not its topology. Don't blame me for your stupidity.

[Ion]

Your presumptions of my ignorance aside, you're still the one who can't even figure out what topology is,...
Suuure.

Spoken like a U.S. lawyer.

[Ziggurat]

Suuure.

Spoken like a U.S. lawyer.

In other words, you have no substantive response to being proven wrong. And since your only attempt at demonstrating that Poincare's contribution to special relativity was through topology turned out to be a paper which actually disproved your claim, you're afraid to try again for fear of looking like an even bigger idiot. Well, have no fear on that front, Ion. You look as dumb as it is possible to look.

[Ion]

In other words, you have no substantive response to being proven wrong....
Speak mathematics, will you?

No Americanese lawyering.

[Ziggurat]

Speak mathematics, will you?

I have, and you never responded. Do you know what a manifold is? Do you know what a metric is? Do you know why a metric is part of the geometry of a manifold, and not a part of its topology? Those are all math questions, and they have gone unanswered by you. Because you don't actually know the answers to them, and you're hoping that nobody will notice that your ignorance demonstrates that you aren't nearly as math-savy as you like to pretend. And unlike some of your math questions, they aren't random either: they go to the heart of claims you made, and the answers to them demonstrate why you were completely wrong.

[Ion]

I have, and...blah...blah...
You haven't.

[Matteo Martini]

So, I need to give you the name of millions of American mathematicians?


Absolutely.

Not just geniuses like Poincare (France) and Pomerance (U.S.), but U.S. people who know off the top of their head what's cos(a+b), what's a Dirac function, how to solve Ricatti differential equations,


Would you give me the names of millions of French and Romanians, who know off the top of their head what's cos(a+b), what's a Dirac function, how to solve Ricatti differential equations?

BTW, for the last time, waiting for an answer about " Le Galois "..

[Ziggurat]

Would you give me the names of millions of French and Romanians, who know off the top of their head what's cos(a+b), what's a Dirac function, how to solve Ricatti differential equations?

The funny thing is, I doubt Ion really even understands Dirac functions (ie, delta functions) on anything deeper than a superficial level. He probably doesn't understand that they are not in fact actually functions at all.

BTW, for the last time, waiting for an answer about " Le Galois "..

Why would he answer now? He might have to admit that "Le Galois" is really Evariste Galois. And that would make him feel bad. And we can't have that, can we?

[Ion]

Would you give me the names of millions of French and Romanians, who know off the top of their head what's cos(a+b), what's a Dirac function, how to solve Ricatti differential equations?

BTW, for the last time, waiting for an answer about " Le Galois "..
Sure.

Start with the telephone book.

When more than 80% of Europeans believe in evolution, and less than 70% of Americans believe in evolution, when most industrialized countries in the world beat U.S. in scientific tests (and I posted excerpts from the article), then:

pretty much anyone in the telephone book in foreign countries is better than the Americans.

Think this way:

for every immigrant U.S. uses in high-tech at 6 figures salary per year, an American didn't get educated.

[Ion]

The funny thing is, I doubt Ion really even understands Dirac functions...
Yeah, I don't understand.

But D.T.M.F. in the 56k modem has the functional specification and the Goertzel algorithm implemented by me.

[Ziggurat]

Yeah, I don't understand.

But D.T.M.F. in the 56k modem has the functional specification and the Goertzel algorithm implemented by me.

Are we supposed to be impressed that you implemented an algorithm invented by an American-educated engineer many decades ago?

[Matteo Martini]

Sure.

Start with the telephone book.

When more than 80% of Europeans believe in evolution, and less than 70% of Americans believe in evolution, when most industrialized countries in the world beat U.S. in scientific tests (and I posted excerpts from the article), then:

pretty much anyone in the telephone book in foreign countries is better than the Americans.

Think this way:

for every immigrant U.S. uses in high-tech at 6 figures salary per year, an American didn't get educated.

OK

You did not reply any of my questions.

In particular, you did not reply to my question about this " Le Galois ", you were talking about.

I consider you a troll.

This is the end of the program, from my side..

[RandFan]

...as opposed to cows who babble on cell phones developed in U.S. by educated, exploited immigrants.Nice.

[WildCat]

as opposed to cows who babble on cell phones developed in U.S. by educated, exploited immigrants.
I'm sorry to hear you were lured into the adult film industry. Perhaps you should get counseling.

[Elizabeth I]

...as opposed to cows who babble on cell phones developed in U.S. by educated, exploited immigrants.

Nice.

Yep, RandFan, you'll notice he's SO EXPLOITED that he's staying here in this pit of corruption, capitalism and cretinism to earn - what, ten times? - the average salary in Romania.

Of course, he still hasn't explained why he left France. Unless...what if THEY WOULDN'T HAVE HIM? OMG, this might mean rethinking all my prejudices against the French. ;)

[RandFan]

Yep, RandFan, you'll notice he's SO EXPLOITED that he's staying here in this pit of corruption, capitalism and cretinism to earn - what, ten times? - the average salary in Romania.

Of course, he still hasn't explained why he left France. Unless...what if THEY WOULDN'T HAVE HIM? OMG, this might mean rethinking all my prejudices against the French. ;)Yes, and after the dust began to settle from the Iraqi invasion fallout France elects a pro-American president.

You gotta love fate and the French people. Not all of them. French expatriates living in America all the while hating America and who go to great lengths to belittle American accomplishments simply deserve contempt and derision. Mostly for their stupidity of course.

[Matteo Martini]

Very off-topic, but I found an interesting article about the topic we were discussing before, the French involvment in the Rwanda massacre, here..

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/africa/article2914409.ece

French soldiers stationed in Rwanda during the genocide in 1994 have been accused of "widespread rape" by a Rwandan commission investigating France's role during the conflict.

The commission, which is due to publish its final report in October, will also provide fresh evidence that French soldiers trained the Interahamwe, the extremist Hutu militia responsible for most of the killing, and even provided them with weapons.

The allegations threaten to plunge relations between Rwanda and its former colonial master to a new low. It could also lead to Rwanda seeking reparations from France at the International Court of Justice. "That is something we are considering," said one government official.

France's support for the genocidal Rwandan regime – both before and during the slaughter – has been well documented, but the new report sheds some light on the extent of that backing.

In particular, it provides the first evidence that French soldiers sent to Rwanda during the genocide as part of a UN-mandated force to protect civilians carried out "widespread rape" of genocide survivors. Jean Paul Kimonyo, one of the commissioners, said: "They were asking for Tutsis – not women – Tutsis."

The commission was established by the Rwandan president Paul Kagame in April last year and is headed by a former minister of justice. France has accused the commission of being little more than a kangaroo court and when the seven commissioners visited France earlier this year, French authorities made it clear that they were not welcome.

[Flo]

Yep, RandFan, you'll notice he's SO EXPLOITED that he's staying here in this pit of corruption, capitalism and cretinism to earn - what, ten times? - the average salary in Romania.

Of course, he still hasn't explained why he left France. Unless...what if THEY WOULDN'T HAVE HIM? OMG, this might mean rethinking all my prejudices against the French. ;)

As I wrote earlier in this thread, Ion is typical of a fraction of my compatriots that we are usually very happy to see leave the country (with of course some pang of conscience at what the rest of the World has inflicted on it).

Yes, and after the dust began to settle from the Iraqi invasion fallout France elects a pro-American president.

Don't rejoice too early. Sarkozy is eager to be seen in a better light than Chirac and to earn advantages for France's economy. It's very different than being "pro-American".

You gotta love fate and the French people. Not all of them. French expatriates living in America all the while hating America and who go to great lengths to belittle American accomplishments simply deserve contempt and derision. Mostly for their stupidity of course.

Why do you think they left France to begin with ? ;)

[RandFan]

Don't rejoice too early. Sarkozy is eager to be seen in a better light than Chirac and to earn advantages for France's economy. It's very different than being "pro-American". Fair enough.

[Elizabeth I]

As I wrote earlier in this thread, Ion is typical of a fraction of my compatriots that we are usually very happy to see leave the country (with of course some pang of conscience at what the rest of the World has inflicted on it).

Isn't it too bad that we can't establish some isolated area where we could all send our "undesirables"? Not criminals, just those pains-in-the-*** nobody wants to have next door.

On another topic, there was a long article in my paper today about Finance Minister Christine Lagarde. How long do you think it will be before one of the unions has someone take a shot at her?

[Gurdur]

Isn't it too bad that we can't establish some isolated area where we could all send our "undesirables"? Not criminals, just those pains-in-the-*** nobody wants to have next door.


Australia is full. You'll simply have to keep your undesirables. :p

[Oliver]

The Pentagon's "Three Day Blitz Plan" to take out Iran's military targets:

http://news.google.com/news?source=ig&hl=en&um=1&tab=wn&ie=UTF-8&q=iran+three+day+blitz&btnG=Search+News

[Elizabeth I]

Australia is full. You'll simply have to keep your undesirables. :p

I was thinking more of Mars. Or Io. :alien009:

[RandFan]

The Pentagon's "Three Day Blitz Plan" to take out Iran's military targets:

http://news.google.com/news?source=ig&hl=en&um=1&tab=wn&ie=UTF-8&q=iran+three+day+blitz&btnG=Search+News

Your post stirs a walk down memory lane and all the woos on this forum who used big bold letters.

Argument ad type style.

Nice.

[Oliver]

Your post stirs a walk down memory lane and all the woos on this forum who used big bold letters.

Argument ad type style.

Nice.


Never mind - I'm sure the "Blitz-issue" will be addressed in the mainstream media
as well, some years later... :p

[RandFan]

Never mind - I'm sure the "Blitz-issue" will be addressed in the mainstream media
as well, some years later... :p"Never mind"? Oliver, I don't know if you have noticed but you are quickly becoming irrelvant if you haven't become so allready.

For you to say never mind is rather redundant.

[Oliver]

That doesn't matter to me as long I'm able to inform you about
things you're not able to hear in your Mainstream-Media...

[Ziggurat]

The Pentagon's "Three Day Blitz Plan" to take out Iran's military targets:

That isn't news. I bet the Pentagon has lots of different plans for how to hit Iran. Probably have a one-week blitz plan, a one-night blitz plan, a one-month blitz plan, and a no-down-payment, easy monthly installment blitz plan. Planning is part of their job. The more plans they have, the more options policymakers have. Having a plan doesn't mean that they're intending on implementing any particular plan. But at least we've got a plan. Tell me: if Iran refuses to back down from its nuclear ambitions, does Germany have a plan for how to deal with Iran? No, I don't think so. Unless "let's hope the Americans do something about it" counts as a plan.

[RandFan]

That doesn't matter to me as long I'm able to inform you about things you're not able to hear in your Mainstream-Media...Yes, information from an irrelevant source is always persuasive. Thanks.

Good luck with that.

[jsiv]

I certainly hope Norway has plans drawn up for how to take down Sweden if it becomes necessary.

[Oliver]

Yes, information from an irrelevant source is always persuasive. Thanks.

Good luck with that.


I see - non-patriotic non-American Sources are irrelevant...
So that's how you ended up in a "quagmire (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BEsZMvrq-I)" ... I understand .... :rolleyes:

[Oliver]

That isn't news. I bet the Pentagon has lots of different plans for how to hit Iran. Probably have a one-week blitz plan, a one-night blitz plan, a one-month blitz plan, and a no-down-payment, easy monthly installment blitz plan. Planning is part of their job. The more plans they have, the more options policymakers have. Having a plan doesn't mean that they're intending on implementing any particular plan. But at least we've got a plan. Tell me: if Iran refuses to back down from its nuclear ambitions, does Germany have a plan for how to deal with Iran? No, I don't think so. Unless "let's hope the Americans do something about it" counts as a plan.


The official Statements about Iran from the German minister of foreign relations are here:

http://www.germany.info/relaunch/politics/speeches/021907.html

[RandFan]

I see - non-patriotic non-American Sources are irrelevant... So that's how you ended up in a quagmire ... I understand .... :rolleyes:Again, you are being dishonest. I have accepted and agreed with the criticisms made by Darat, The Fool, AUP, Zep and many other non-American sources.

You are simply wrong and are making a strawman. Not surprising of course.

[jsiv]

I have a simple question, Oliver.

Do you think Norway is justified in having plans drawn up and ready for various attack (and defense) scenarios against nations that could potentially become a threat in the future (be it Russia, Sweden, Liechtenstein, or anyone else)?

[Oliver]

Again, you are being dishonest. I have accepted and agreed with the criticisms made by Darat, The Fool, AUP, Zep and many other non-American sources.

You are simply wrong and are making a strawman. Not surprising of course.


No - I was paraphrasing the fact that the US-Media lacks to criticize
themselves. That's indeed how you ended up in a "quagmire (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BEsZMvrq-I)". And the
funny thing about that is that no one got his ass kicked since or for
9/11. You probably know that the US got all sympathy in the world
after the attacks - including mine.

But the Bush administration managed it to kick these sympathies to
death. And that's because selfish interests - not in the name of the
Americans like you.

So if you think that my nuisance is "dishonesty", you are free to hold
this opinion. But I don't agree with the Idea that I'm anti-American
just because the lack of actions against the current Administration
bothers me.

[Oliver]

I have a simple question, Oliver.

Do you think Norway is justified in having plans drawn up and ready for various attack (and defense) scenarios against nations that could potentially become a threat in the future (be it Russia, Sweden, Liechtenstein, or anyone else)?


No - and neither do I care about Germanies plans in case of a threat.
But we know from the current administration that this aren't empty
words - that's why I complained to the white house if you missed that
speech:

http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/08/29/bush-ramps-up-iran-rhetoric-warns-of-nuclear-holocaust/

It's sick to declare an enemy that doesn't pose a threat to themselves.
Don't you agree?

[jsiv]

No - and neither do I care about Germanies plans in case of a threat.

[...]

It's sick to declare an enemy that doesn't pose a threat to themselves.
Don't you agree?


No, I don't agree. At all.

I would be angry if the people I elected to run the country didn't plan for all possibilities, including possible future armed conflicts with various nations -- especially those that show signs of being a higher risk. That is their job, and the world changes very fast. One must be prepared.

Are you seriously of the belief that one shouldn't start drawing any plans until after the bombs start dropping and potentially make your assets unavailable?

[RandFan]

So if you think that my nuisance is "dishonesty", you are free to hold
this opinion. But I don't agree with the Idea that I'm anti-American
just because the lack of actions against the current Administration
bothers me.Again, you are being dishonest. I never said your "nusance" is dishonesty. I'm saying your specific actions are dishonest. When you take what I say and turn it around to mean something else that is dishonest.

As for America, if there was some degree of proportionality, if you cared about any of the many other serious problems in the world ALONG WITH your concern about the American administration then you would have some credibility.

There is Genocide in Darfur.
Iran is a serious concern to many in the world community.
North Korea suffers from serious human rights abuses.
Palestine and Israel are locked in a struggle that is causing great harm to the people of those countries.
Please feel free to critisize America.
Please feel free to critisize America.
Please feel free to critisize America.
Please feel free to critisize America.

But demonstrate that your critisism is born of a sincere interest in the welfare of humanity and not just a pathological obsession with a Democracy that has a constitution, free speech, free press and term limits for its leaders.

No, its not perfect but we have proven capable of righting our wrongs (see Watergate, see George Bush's low poll numbers).

You unwillingness to post as if these are not indeed facts is what makes you dishonest.

[Oliver]

No, I don't agree. At all.

I would be angry if the people I elected to run the country didn't plan for all possibilities, including possible future armed conflicts with various nations -- especially those that show signs of being a higher risk. That is their job, and the world changes very fast. One must be prepared.

Are you seriously of the belief that one shouldn't start drawing any plans until after the bombs start dropping and potentially make your assets unavailable?


What "Higher risks" to America? Are you kidding me? :confused:
Explain:

[jsiv]

What "Higher risks" to America? Are you kidding me? :confused:
Explain:


What's that?

We were talking about whether you believe Norway was justified.

[Oliver]

Again, you are being dishonest. I never said your "nusance" is dishonesty. I'm saying your specific actions are dishonest. When you take what I say and turn it around to mean something else that is dishonest.

As for America, if there was some degree of proportionality, if you cared about any of the many other serious problems in the world ALONG WITH your concern about the American administration then you would have some credibility.
There is Genocide in Darfur.
Iran is a serious concern to many in the world community.
North Korea suffers from serious human rights abuses.
Palestine and Israel are locked in a struggle that is causing great harm to the people of those countries.Please feel free to critisize America.
Please feel free to critisize America.
Please feel free to critisize America.
Please feel free to critisize America.

But demonstrate that your critisism is born of a sincere interest in the welfare of humanity and not just a pathological obsession with a Democracy that has a constitution, free speech, free press and term limits for its leaders.

No, its not perfect but we have proven capable of righting our wrongs (see Watergate, see George Bush's low poll numbers).

You unwillingness to post as if these are not indeed facts is what makes you dishonest.


You don't understand:

"The average criminal is black, 25 years old and male".

Your logic is that we should attack or imprison all these guys because
they pose a threat to you.

That is no fact whatsoever. Once Iran attacks Israel with nuclear weapons,
you're factually right to say they are a threat. But to say "All Threats are middle-eastern,
Anti-Israeli and muslim" then you're falling into the "Black, 25, male" fallacy.

Do you understand my logic? :confused:

[Oliver]

What's that?

We were talking about whether you believe Norway was justified.


We talk about that once Norway acts preemptively, Jsiv.
As long it's defense based of "in case of a real threat", I'm completely fine with that...

[jsiv]

Once Iran attacks Israel with nuclear weapons,
you're factually right to say they are a threat


I don't think you understand what the word "threat" means.

[RandFan]

Your logic is that we should attack or imprison all these guys because they pose a threat to you.No, that is not my logic at all.

My logic is that we should use proportionality in our efforts.

Read it again.

{jeez}

Do you understand my logic? Yes, I understand that it is spurious.

How do you go from "proportionality" to "all"?

Slow down Oliver. Not only are your arguments wrong but you are compounding your error with poor reading comprehension.

[Oliver]

I don't think you understand what the word "threat" means.


Threat means: "Hey ho - it's me, Ahmadinejad. I will attack the US once I have
Nuclear Weapons ... Woo Hoo!"

Well, what is the threat in your opinion? Isn't Russia with all it's nuclear weapons
a threat anymore - after US-Citizens were scared about the nuclear threat for
decades?

You know what I mean - please don't play dumb just to disagree...

[Oliver]

No, that is not my logic at all.

My logic is that we should use proportionality in our efforts.

Read it again.

{jeez}

Yes, I understand that it is spurious.

How do you go from "proportionality" to "all"?

Slow down Oliver. Not are you only are your arguments wrong but you are compounding your error with poor reading comprehension.


"Proportionally".

Does that mean to interfere preemptively? If so, you indeed fall into the
"You know what, that guy is black, 25 and male as well".

Explain the Iranian threat to me ... in "Proportionally" terms ... :boggled:

[RandFan]

"Proportionally".

Does that mean to interfere preemptively? If so, you indeed fall into the
"You know what, that guy is black, 25 and male as well".

Explain the Iranian threat to me ... in "Proportionally" terms ... :boggled:Yes, like you would understand it if I did. :boggled:

I'd prefer to talk to some adults for awhile now if you don't mind.

[Oliver]

Yes, like you would understand it if I did. :boggled:

I'd prefer to talk to some adults for awhile now if you don't mind.


So you're not even able to explain an "imaginary" threat to a non-adult person.
Well, I see... Your wisdom is endlessly ... :rolleyes:

[jsiv]

Well, what is the threat in your opinion? Isn't Russia with all it's nuclear weapons a threat anymore - after US-Citizens were scared about the nuclear threat for decades?


Russia is certainly still a threat, which is why we spend millions on preemptively sending out fighter jets and navy ships to watch them virtually every day.

Sweden isn't a threat today, but it could quickly become one if the world changes, so it makes perfect sense to plan for the possibility. That is why we have a military.


You know what I mean - please don't play dumb just to disagree...


I am not "playing dumb" or picking on you, I'm just pointing out that your alternative interpretation of words is a serious problem that makes debate difficult.


threat (thrĕt) http://content.answers.com/main/content/img/pron.gif
n.
An expression of an intention to inflict pain, injury, evil, or punishment.
An indication of impending danger or harm.
One that is regarded as a possible danger; a menace.
You do not have to actually attack someone to be a threat.

[RandFan]

So you're not even able to explain an "imaginary" threat to a non-adult person.
Well, I see... Your wisdom is endlessly ... :rolleyes:No, I just tire of bickering with someone who is incapable of grasping simple concepts.

[Oliver]

Russia is certainly still a threat, which is why we spend millions on preemptively sending out fighter jets and navy ships to watch them virtually every day.

Sweden isn't a threat today, but it could quickly become one if the world changes, so it makes perfect sense to plan for the possibility. That is why we have a military.

I am not "playing dumb" or picking on you, I'm just pointing out that your alternative interpretation of words is a serious problem that makes debate difficult.

threat (thrĕt) http://content.answers.com/main/content/img/pron.gif
n.
An expression of an intention to inflict pain, injury, evil, or punishment.
An indication of impending danger or harm.
One that is regarded as a possible danger; a menace.You do not have to actually attack someone to be a threat.


Sweden is no threat until they go crazy and attack other countries preemptively.
That won't happen - and even if, it wouldn't last long.

So in my assumption, Norway and Sweden pose no threats to world-peace.
No matter if WMD's are involved or not.

Or how would you feel if the President of the US would declare Norway or
Sweden as a threat just because they have WMD's?

[Oliver]

No, I just tire of bickering with someone who is incapable of grasping simple concepts.


I understand very well that the US has thousands of nuclear weapons
and Iran isn't allowed to even have one. Why don't you understand that hypocrisy??? :confused:

Playing stupid??? :confused:

[Ziggurat]

"Proportionally".

No, Oliver. "Proportionality" is a different word than "proportionally", though they are closely related. The former is a noun, the latter is an adverb. RandFan used the correct form (the noun form) in the context of his argument.

[jsiv]

Sweden is no threat until they go crazy and attack other countries preemptively.
That won't happen - and even if, it wouldn't last long.


I said that they could potentially become a threat in the future. Are you even paying attention? And no, Sweden does not have to "go crazy and attack other countries preemptively" to become a threat to us.


So in my assumption, Norway and Sweden pose no threats to world-peace.
No matter if WMD's are involved or not.


Huh? That's not the point. Yes, the US has greater responsibility, but that doesn't mean that they don't have the same right as us to prepare for all possibilities.


Or how would you feel if the President of the US would declare Norway or
Sweden as a threat just because they have WMD's?


Considering Norway's strategic importance, I have no doubt that the US has various plans drawn up to deal with us.

If we had any weapons capable of reaching the US, I would expect them to have us on a list of potential threats. I have no problem with this.

[Ziggurat]

I understand very well that the US has thousands of nuclear weapons
and Iran isn't allowed to even have one. Why don't you understand that hypocrisy??? :confused:

Playing stupid??? :confused:

There's no hypocricy at all. Iran agreed not to have any. Playing stupid, indeed.

Oh, and knock it off with the font size. It's annoying, it hinders readability, and it doesn't make your argument any more convincing. Bolding, itallics, and underlines are plenty sufficient for emphasis, and if you really feel the need to shout, you can use ALL UPPER CASE without actually increasing the font size.

[Oliver]

No, Oliver. "Proportionality" is a different word than "proportionally", though they are closely related. The former is a noun, the latter is an adverb. RandFan used the correct form (the noun form) in the context of his argument.


Okay, appreciated. I will trash my translator once I don't need it anymore, promised.
Are you able to explain why Iran is a quote: "Nuclear Holocaust threat"?

[Ziggurat]

The official Statements about Iran from the German minister of foreign relations are here:

http://www.germany.info/relaunch/politics/speeches/021907.html

Which amounts to "let's wait a while longer, and if that doesn't do anything, maybe we'll enact tougher sanctions". The possibility of anything beyond that simply doesn't exist for him. Even France gets that it's at least possible that only military action can stop Iran from getting nukes. Not even on the radar for Germany.

[Oliver]

Which amounts to "let's wait a while longer, and if that doesn't do anything, maybe we'll enact tougher sanctions". The possibility of anything beyond that simply doesn't exist for him. Even France gets that it's at least possible that only military action can stop Iran from getting nukes. Not even on the radar for Germany.


So what the heck is your opinion about a country having >one< nuclear
weapon living in a country that has dozens of them? Hypocrisy much?

Care to explain that to me?

The only option to argue is "But, but, but - they're a theocracy".
And I will counter: "So what? Is a President going to god- ordered, preemtive wars" theocracy as well?

[Ziggurat]

So what the heck is your opinion about a country having >one< nuclear
weapon living in a country that has dozens of them? Hypocrisy much?

Care to explain that to me?

Care to actually read the thread? I already gave an answer.

The only option to argue is "But, but, but - they're a theocracy".

No, Oliver. The first and primary argument against Iran having nukes is because they agreed not to have nukes. Do you not get that? No, evidently you don't. Even after me telling you that, several posts back. You're not doing well so far, Oliver.

And I will counter: "So what? Is a President going to god- ordered, preemtive wars" theocracy as well?

No, Oliver, the US is not a theocracy. A theocracy is a structural form of government. Whatever the personal reasons Bush had for deciding to go to war, that's all they were: his personal reasons. Nothing about the governmental structure of the United States, or about the formal process by which a decision was actually made to go to war (in case you didn't notice, Bush hardly did it alone, nor could he), were at all religious. Besides which, there's no evidence other than the word of some Palestinian politician that Bush ever said anything like that, so there's really no reason to think that actually was what Bush believed. IIRC that's been pointed out to you before as well. But you swallow that claim about Bush as complete truth because it fits your prejudices. One does not have to think very highly of that decision to know that the argument you're making here is complete and utter codswallop.

[Oliver]

Care to actually read the thread? I already gave an answer.

No, Oliver. The first and primary argument against Iran having nukes is because they agreed not to have nukes. Do you not get that? No, evidently you don't. Even after me telling you that, several posts back. You're not doing well so far, Oliver.

No, Oliver, the US is not a theocracy. A theocracy is a structural form of government. Whatever the personal reasons Bush had for deciding to go to war, that's all they were: his personal reasons. Nothing about the governmental structure of the United States, or about the formal process by which a decision was actually made to go to war (in case you didn't notice, Bush hardly did it alone, nor could he), were at all religious. Besides which, there's no evidence other than the word of some Palestinian politician that Bush ever said anything like that, so there's really no reason to think that actually was what Bush believed. IIRC that's been pointed out to you before as well. But you swallow that claim about Bush as complete truth because it fits your prejudices. One does not have to think very highly of that decision to know that the argument you're making here is complete and utter codswallop.


I'm not talking about a theocratic political system - but rather talking about
a medial theocratic system. Once the Government found it's new Castro,
Saddam or Ahmadinejad, the unbelievable stupid US-Mainstream Media
adopts these stupid allegations.

So what's the difference to a political system based on Theocracy?

Right - there are none.

Remember the run-up to the Iraq-war? :confused: Remember Cheney's wise words (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BEsZMvrq-I)? :confused:
You're right - the US citizens adopted their leaders theocratic Woo-conclusions....

So you're argument to believe them again is ... Woo-Propaganda again???

[Pardalis]

I don't think Oliver makes any sense anymore.

[Oliver]

I don't think Oliver makes any sense anymore.


Read again, Goury ... Oh, I forgot - you don't watch US-Television ... :rolleyes:

[Pardalis]

Read again, Goury ... Oh, I forgot - you don't watch US-Television ... :rolleyes:

I don't ?

[Gurdur]

I don't think Oliver makes any sense anymore.


Oliver is probably posting while drinking (PWD), and he is also getting very resentful at not getting taken seriously any more.

Mind you, he never did make all that much sense, but I agree, it has grown worse and worse very recently.

[Oliver]

I don't ?


Yes, you said you don't watch US-Television - that's why you had no
Idea how the US portrays the ugly, Canadian UHC-System.

[jsiv]

What's a Goury?

[Oliver]

Oliver is probably posting while drinking (PWD), and he is also getting very resentful at not getting taken seriously any more.

Mind you, he never did make all that much sense, but I agree, it has grown worse and worse very recently.


@Gurdur: Rule 11 and 12 (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=25744).

[Pardalis]

Oliver is probably posting while drinking (PWD), and he is also getting very resentful at not getting taken seriously any more.

Mind you, he never did make all that much sense, but I agree, it has grown worse and worse very recently.

I think he's more confused than anything else, like he's being fed ideas (my guess is from the other side of the street) and trying to validate them here on this forum.

[Pardalis]

Yes, you said you don't watch US-Television - that's why you had no
Idea how the US portrays the ugly, Canadian UHC-System.

No. I said I didn't watch Fox.

I do watch CNN, ABC, NBC, HBO and other US tv networks.