'prayer death'

[arcticpenguin]

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,7058050%255E1702,00.html

AN autistic 8-year-old boy died while being restrained during a church prayer service held in an attempt to cure him, and one man connected with the small storefront church was arrested, police and a church official said.

The boy's mother took him to the Faith Temple Church of the Apostolic Faith for the prayer service Friday night. Several church members prayed over him for more than an hour until someone noticed he wasn't moving and called paramedics, said Bishop David Hemphill Sr.
...
"The boy just had a problem in his mind, and what we were doing was asking God to fix it," Hemphill said. "He chose to fix it by taking him back home to him."

"All I know is we're not guilty of anything," he said.

Church members wrapped the boy in sheets to keep him from scratching himself and others, but the boy was allowed to sit "any way that he feels comfortable," Hemphill said.

Police would not say what the man could be charged with, only that they were awaiting the results of an autopsy.
...
"We believe that according to the word of God, a person could get evil spiritedness," he said. "Either God's going to have to deliver, or we're going to have to do whatever we can until things get better."

He just up and died, eh? They didn't smother him or anything like that? We'll see what the autopsy says.

[evildave]

Similar deaths occurr in America.

They wrapped him up and smothered him.

I don't know. Perhaps I agree "this is for the best."

Think of all the other similar "treatments" this unfortunate kid's parents would've subjected him to, had he lived.

Then again, I have no knowledge of how much crap they put him through up until this point. The fact he resisted "treatment" may be some indication that he was familiar with it, and knew what was comming next.

I'm sure it will all come out.

Autism can be ugly, it's true. But so can "good intentions" gone horribly bad.

[arcticpenguin]

Originally posted by evildave
Similar deaths occurr in America.

I left out the dateline:
From correspondents in Milwaukee
August 25, 2003
I'm assuming that's Milwaukee USA, but I can't be positive.

[evildave]

Ah, well then these just happen all the time, then. A few a year, at least.

[ImpyTimpy]

Anyone else notice this?


Hemphill said the boy and his mother had been going to the prayer services for the past three weeks. Members of the church, made up of just six families, prayed for God to release the evil spirits that cause the boy's illness, he said.

And


"The boy just had a problem in his mind, and what we were doing was asking God to fix it," Hemphill said. "He chose to fix it by taking him back home to him."

Anyone else want to get together and form a "church"? We can kill innocent little kids and blame God for it as well.

[c4ts]

What are they expecting to find by performing an autopsy? A little demon popping out where they cut the boy open?

[evildave]

Bruises, abrasions, broken bones, etc., including healed broken bones, scarring, etc. from past treatment.

They'll literally take him apart to see what killed him.

And somebody will take the fall. In similar cases where children were "under therapy", the person who administered the therapy got it. In this case, I think the parents share it.

"Oopsy! We wrapped him up good and tight in sheets and blankets until he stopped struggling and then he was dead! Gawd's will!"

Slightly amplified version:
http://www.ajc.com/news/content/news/ap/ap_story.html/National/AP.V3793.AP-Church-Death.html


http://www.rickross.com/reference/rebirthing/rebirthing4.html
When 10-year-old Candace Newmaker died after being bound in a flannel blanket with pillows piled on it, her Evergreen therapists were performing a birth simulation that their trainer said he's done 500 times with no ill effects.

A General Warning about "Treatments"
http://www.dadi.org/beware.htm
1. Use of physical force is not treatment. Common sense tells us that sometimes we must hold a child to keep him or her from engaging in dangerous behavior - like running into heavy traffic. There is no treatment value to restraining or holding a child against his or her will. That type of restraint is dangerous and abusive.

2. There are no magic cures for behavior problems. Turning to a magic cure for behavior problems is like injecting someone suffering from a chronic illness with a potentially poisonous "medicine" and using the argument that the risk is justified because nothing else has worked.

3. Children in treatment have rights. Children have a right to safe, effective and humane treatment. If a treatment approach or setting does not meet those criteria, it is not treatment. It is true that children in treatment may be asked to obey rules they do not like (for example, making their beds or refraining from disrespectful behavior), or they may experience consequences for breaking the rules (for example, losing privileges such as calling friends on the telephone or watching TV). But good treatment does not violate youths'rights.

Candace's Law (see above case) passed
http://www.healthwatcher.net/Quackerywatch/Attachment-therapy/
MORE quackery: Attachment Therapy, HOLDING Therapy, etc.

It seems to me that by now parents should know about subjecting children to this sort of quackery, and should be becomming more and more liable for these problems.

[crocodile deathroll]

This reminds me of this fatal excorcism (http://www.insanetree.com/klipkop/fe.htm) involving Mr & Mrs vollmer who ran
a small piggery outside Antwerp, near Dimboola in western Victoria. Mrs Vollmer had a schizophrenic attack and as the Pentacolist excorcists attempted to strangle the "demons" out of her they stangled her to death as well.

[Boo]

Sadly if theses parents had done any research at all they would have learned that the last thing you want to do to an Autistic is restrain them. Autistic children and adults have been known to break limbs to escape restraints.

Negligent homicide, manslaughter, can anyone tell me if second degree might apply here? Do they have the death penalty in Wisconsin?

BTW, somebody might want to inform the "preacher" that death is not a "cure".


Sorry, I'm a tad , aaarrrrgghh, can't use those words. I'm going to go hug my litle ones now.


Boo

[triadboy]

Originally posted by arcticpenguin

I left out the dateline:

I'm assuming that's Milwaukee USA, but I can't be positive.

Milwaukee? Well, that explains it. They were all hopped up on cheeseballs and beer


....and, of course, Jebus.

[teddygrahams]

Originally posted by ImpyTimpy

Anyone else want to get together and form a "church"? We can kill innocent little kids and blame God for it as well.

Why do you want to pick on innocent little kids when we know who needs an exorcism ?

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by evildave
Ah, well then these just happen all the time, then. A few a year, at least.

Not so many cases, but this has also happened in Australia.

[shemp]

Bishop David Hemphill Sr.

Who made this clown a bishop anyway? AUP, have you been selling bishoprics and indulgences again?! If I don't get my cut, you're gonna be sorry!

[Yahweh]

Yes, it was evil spirits that were causing this boy to act all funny. I mean, its crazy to believe in such a thing as a hereditary pervasive developmental disorder which results in irregular brain structure. [/cynicism]

[Brown]

Originally posted by arcticpenguin
I'm assuming that's Milwaukee USA, but I can't be positive. It's Milwaukee, Wisconsin, USA. Here's a link to an article from Yahoo and AP. (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=8&u=/ap/20030825/ap_on_re_us/church_death) The "correspondents in Milwaukee" referred to in The Australian's article are apparently the AP reporters."We believe that according to the word of God, a person could get evil spiritedness," he said. "Either God's going to have to deliver, or we're going to have to do whatever we can until things get better." I've read this quote half a dozen times and still it makes no sense.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by shemp


Who made this clown a bishop anyway? AUP, have you been selling bishoprics and indulgences again?! If I don't get my cut, you're gonna be sorry!

All it takes is a crate of alter wine. Vintage 2003.

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by ImpyTimpy
Anyone else want to get together and form a "church"? We can kill innocent little kids and blame God for it as well.

Is there anyone left here who's actually willing to wait for the autopsy report before accusing people of murder?

Sure, we all know cases of autistic children being smothered and killed, and it's entirely possible that's what happened in this case. But we don't know that for sure, and such accusations are much too serious and horrendous to just throw about without evidence.

[evildave]

The other cases I cited are not autistic.

They were regular kids who had problems, that were "solved" by killing them.

It would be awfully peculiar to have a scene where binding a child and forcibly laying hands on them was only "coincidental" with their sudden and inexplicable death.

[WildCat]

Originally posted by Boo
Negligent homicide, manslaughter, can anyone tell me if second degree might apply here? Do they have the death penalty in Wisconsin?Boo
There is no death penalty in Wisconsin, and even if there were it wouldn't apply in a case like this.

There will likely be charges, however. from here: (http://customwire.ap.org/dynamic/stories/C/CHURCH_DEATH?SITE=WIWAF&SECTION=US&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT)
"If (the boy) died, which I highly doubt, of some natural cause, he won't be charged with anything too serious," said police Capt. Linda Haynes. She said she did not believe the boy had been struck during the service.
Which implies there will be serious charges.

Also from the same source:
He said members of the church, made up of just six families, prayed for God to release the evil spirits that he said caused the boy's illness. The church had been performing the prayer services for the boy three times a week for the past three weeks, Hemphill said.

Proof that religion stops a thinking mind.

[PygmyPlaidGiraffe]

from article
Several church members prayed over him for more than an hour until someone noticed he wasn't moving and called paramedics, said Bishop David Hemphill Sr.



Why did they call paramedics?
Did they lack faith and conviction?
Why not pray to the Lawd to raise him up?
Sure, when things go really wrong, call in the professionals.

Korosi, I understand where you are comig from.

No charges have been laid as of yet, and people have made quick judgements without all the facts that are needed to build a case to support any, if at all, forthcoming allegations of either:
negligence, unlawful confinement, assault, practicing medicine without a liscence, or wrongful death.

I can not speak for others but unfortunately I feel like exacting a little bit of an eye for an eye. An emotional, horrible response on my part yes. I have worked with autistic children in an educational setting and this incident got my goat good.

[Jesse2]

Originally posted by WildCat
Proof that religion stops a thinking mind. Thankfully, not all religions are this whacked.

[PygmyPlaidGiraffe]

Originally posted by WildCat

There is no death penalty in Wisconsin, and even if there were it wouldn't apply in a case like this.

There will likely be charges, however. from here: (http://customwire.ap.org/dynamic/stories/C/CHURCH_DEATH?SITE=WIWAF&SECTION=US&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT)

Which implies there will be serious charges.

Also from the same source:


Proof that religion stops a thinking mind.


Police would not identify the man who was arrested Friday, but Hemphill said it was his brother, Ray Hemphill, another minister at the church.

How many ministers does one storefront church with 6 families need? And a bishop? Wow, a stately title for a man with a small flock with no ties to any larger denominations.

[ImpyTimpy]

I don't think there's a need to hold off and wait, considering the facts given. They smothered a kid, the kid died, God obviously wanted to kill him (according to the "minister"). Their moronic comments coupled with the description of events alone should be grounds to lock these people away.

Originally posted by Joshua Korosi


Is there anyone left here who's actually willing to wait for the autopsy report before accusing people of murder?

Sure, we all know cases of autistic children being smothered and killed, and it's entirely possible that's what happened in this case. But we don't know that for sure, and such accusations are much too serious and horrendous to just throw about without evidence.

[evildave]

On the lighter side...

The civilized way to beat your children?
http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/cst-nws-stick24.html

There is no easy way of putting it, so let's just say it:

Steven Robyor has invented a new device.

I really think it will help," he said.

It is called the B-Stik.

"A lot of people seem to misunderstand it, though," he said.

It costs $29.95.

It is designed for . . . it is designed for. . . .

"It's designed for parents to hit their children with."

Right.

[Jesse2]

Originally posted by evildave
On the lighter side...

The civilized way to beat your children?
http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/cst-nws-stick24.html
I'm not apalled by the "b-stick", but I think you should give enough respect for your own child's intelligence that they can be taught a lesson without the need to beat them. I guess a father can only show as much respect as he has for himself.

[Peter Jenkins]

Originally posted by Jesse2
I'm not apalled by the "b-stick", but I think you should give enough respect for your own child's intelligence that they can be taught a lesson without the need to beat them. I guess a father can only show as much respect as he has for himself.
I find that a riding crop is easily available and gives just the right amount of stinging sensation to provide 'correction'
I'd never use one on anybody without consent, though ;)
Peter

[shanek]

Originally posted by Boo
Sadly if theses parents had done any research at all they would have learned that the last thing you want to do to an Autistic is restrain them. Autistic children and adults have been known to break limbs to escape restraints.

As the father of an autistic child, I can believe that. My son is usually very good about wearing his seat belt, but sometimes he gets in a mood and fights you tooth and nail when you try to get the belt on him. The only way to do it is to hold him down and restrain him long enough to buckle him in. (And if it's not a 5-point system, he can slip out of it.)

I hate having to do that, but I'd hate getting into an accident with him unbelted even more. Sometimes, you don't have a choice. But that wasn't the case here. What they did to this child was inexcusable and despicable.

[pgwenthold]

I don't have a link, but there was just a case this last week in Indiana where a 2 day old baby died from post-birth infection. He was born at home, and died at home, because the parents refuse to consult medical assistance, for religious reasons.

The "church elders" prayed over the baby as it died.

A doctor would have provided some antibiotics and the baby would have lived. That's what they do when they encounter this problem at the hospital (which they do, on occasion).

[GroundStrength]

Originally posted by Jesse2
Thankfully, not all religions are this whacked.

Yes, they are.:(

[Dancing David]

As much as I would like to condemn religous institutions and woo-woo thought, I have to say that there is plenty of child abuse that is perpetrated by many people. They all use whatever excuse is convinient to justify thier abuse. If we were a secular society, there would still be child abuse, it just would have secular trappings.

On the other hand, religion seems to be a great excuse, my parents didn't know any better but they denied me medical treatment because they were raised in a cult.

[zakur]

.

[Cinorjer]

The fact that a child was treated as if he had some sort of evil demon causing his behavior is abuse in and of itself. He was repeatedly surrounded by adults, all of them screaming for the demon to get out and "laying on of hands". I've been to these little charasmatic churches, dragged along by my mother when I was a boy and watched people being worked over to get "demons out". Emotions run high, all these strangers are loud, and it was very scary for me even as a normal kid. I shudder to think of what it did to an autistic child.

Make no mistake, what they did was torture that child.

Jerry

[The Central Scrutinizer]

The report fails to mention if the parents live in a single or double wide. :confused:

[Pyrrho]

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/08/25/national/main569963.shtml


The death of an autistic 8-year-old boy who suffocated during a prayer service in which church members tried to exorcise evil spirits was a homicide, the medical examiner's office said.

Terrance Cottrell Jr. had been wrapped in sheets during Friday's service at the Faith Temple Church of the Apostolic Faith, located in a run-down strip mall.

He died because his chest was restricted and could not expand, according to a statement issued Monday by the office of the Milwaukee County coroner.

"Air was not able to get in or out," said Eileen Weller, the office's administrative manager. She declined to release further details, saying police were still investigating the death.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Well, you have to admit, they cured him of his autism. :(

[evildave]

Funny how much illness death cures.

You'd think they'd save a lot on medical expenses if they'd just euthenise practically everyone who was more than trivially sick.

A bit like pet medicine.

Do your beloved pets have pet medical insurance? It's cheap....

[Boo]

I started a nice long rant to vent my anger and horror. I can't. My grief is too great. A life has been ended and the potential it held is gone. I wish I believed in hell.



Boo

[evildave]

Well, according to where your hypothetical beliefs could have extended, some religious thinking believes that all children too young (or disabled) to "accept their personal savior" will burn in Hell. (http://pub49.ezboard.com/ftruechristiansunitefrm7.showMessage?topicID=21.to pic)

Aborted fetuses, for instance, burn in Hell. (http://pub49.ezboard.com/ftruechristiansunitefrm7.showMessage?topicID=21.to pic)

Babies that get sick and die, burn in Hell. (http://pub49.ezboard.com/ftruechristiansunitefrm7.showMessage?topicID=21.to pic)

People without the higher-reasoning or whatever to understand... you guessed it, burn in Hell. (http://pub49.ezboard.com/ftruechristiansunitefrm7.showMessage?topicID=21.to pic)

Maybe that'll cheer you up?

[ImpyTimpy]

From CBS article:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/08/25/national/main569963.shtml


It was after more than an hour of prayer that a parishioner noticed the boy was no longer moving and called emergency workers, Hemphill said. The boy's grandmother said force was used, an allegation disputed by church members.

"We were asking God to take this spirit that was tormenting this little boy to death," Hemphill said. "We were praying that hard, but not to kill."

These people are beyond delusions... They hold the kid down so hard that he suffocates, oh but don't worry, they were praying hard, but not hard enough to kill... Guess "God" just misunderstood...

F**k, lock these loonies up before someone else gets hurt. Better still, hope someone else decides to wrap these a***oles in a blanket and "pray hard" till they suffocate.

:mad:

[Brown]

What these folks did is despicable. That seems to be obvious to almost everyone, except themselves.

The evil here is not that they tried to obtain a "cure" for autism by praying for it. The evil is that they wrapped a fellow human being in sheets and restrained him so that he couldn't breathe, and he died as a result.

As any criminal lawyer can tell you, motive is not an element of any crime. The prosecutor never has to prove why a defendant acted criminally. At most, the prosecutor has to prove an intent to engage in criminal conduct, which is not the same thing as motive. For some crimes, the prosecutor does not even have to show intent, but can establish guilt with a showing of recklessness.

The motive that these folks had for doing what they did ought to be no defense. The fact that they were praying while engaging in criminal conduct should be no defense.

[mummymonkey]

If any legal eagles are out there do they think that motive (see Brown's post above) would be a consideration in any sentence passed?

[shanek]

One comment on something from the CNN article:

http://edition.cnn.com/2003/LAW/08/25/autistic.boy.death/

A neighbor described Terrance's mother as a zealous church convert who once said the evil spirit had spoken through her son at the church.

"She said he said, 'Kill me, take me, kill me,'" neighbor Denise Allison said. "I was like, are you serious? I couldn't really believe that."

Asked whether church members could have confused Terrance's autism with evil spirits, David Hemphill said no.

"It wasn't confused," he told CNN. "I know what I'm talking about."

If they had bothered to learn anything at all about autism, they would know that autistic children do say things out of context, inappropriately, and that they don't really mean. These people need to be told flat out that they are ignoramuses, and that that ignorance is directly responsible for taking the life of an innocent child.

:mad: :mad: :mad:

[WildCat]

Here's how taking the bible literally can kill a child, from the Chicago Tribune (http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-0308260312aug26,1,3253460.story?coll=chi-news-hed) (registration required):
The idea to lay across the boy came out of the Revised Standard Edition of the Bible, from the First Book of Kings, Chapter 17, Verse 21, said Assistant Pastor Pamela Hemphill. The passage describes a prophet who lay across a child and cried out, "Let this child's soul come into him again," she said.

Also:
Terrance mostly spoke in single words, said Cooper's cousin, Luwanda Ward, 24, of Milwaukee. "Instead of saying, `I want soda,' he'd say, `Soda,'" Ward said. "Or for water, he'd say, `Water.'"

But at least once during prayer sessions, the boy also cried out "Shoot me," said Pamela Hemphill.

"If you have an 8-year-old boy who can't say anything but `water' and `bathroom,' tell me why this boy would look at someone and say `shoot me,' if it wasn't a demon?" Tolefree said. "Demons are real."


So, obviously it was a demon, is everyone here convinced?

[Cinorjer]

District Attorney E. Michael McCann said Monday he and other prosecutors met with Medical Examiner Jeffrey Jentzen to review the case.

The fact that Terrance died during what the participants called a prayer service adds legal complications, McCann said.

"The statutes have usually arisen in the context of non-treatment where simply prayer was used," McCann said.

Wisconsin law makes it a felony to intentionally cause bodily harm to a child. But a subsection reads: "TREATMENT THROUGH PRAYER. A person is not guilty of an offense under this section solely because he or she provides a child with treatment by spiritual means through prayer alone for healing in accordance with the religious method of healing permitted" under other statutes "in lieu of medical or surgical treatment."

The Milwaukee Journal Sentinel (http://www.jsonline.com/)

So, folks, it looks like they might actually get away with it.

[arcticpenguin]

Originally posted by Cinorjer
{B}
Wisconsin law makes it a felony to intentionally cause bodily harm to a child. But a subsection reads: "TREATMENT THROUGH PRAYER. A person is not guilty of an offense under this section solely because he or she provides a child with treatment by spiritual means through prayer alone for healing in accordance with the religious method of healing permitted" under other statutes "in lieu of medical or surgical treatment."

The Milwaukee Journal Sentinel (http://www.jsonline.com/)

So, folks, it looks like they might actually get away with it. [/B]
'Through prayer alone' - I take that as meant to cover parents who refuse to take their children in for proper medical treatment. In the current case, it wasn't prayer alone, there were the restraints which probably led to the death. Whether they were praying when they restrained the child to the point of asphyxiation should be irrelevant.

We'll see.

[Starrman]

An update from the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel (http://www.jsonline.com/news/metro/aug03/165087.asp) . The 'self-described minister' who laid on the child is being charged with felony child abuse. It's a start.

[shanek]

Originally posted by Cinorjer
District Attorney E. Michael McCann said Monday he and other prosecutors met with Medical Examiner Jeffrey Jentzen to review the case.

The fact that Terrance died during what the participants called a prayer service adds legal complications, McCann said.

"The statutes have usually arisen in the context of non-treatment where simply prayer was used," McCann said.

Wisconsin law makes it a felony to intentionally cause bodily harm to a child. But a subsection reads: "TREATMENT THROUGH PRAYER. A person is not guilty of an offense under this section solely because he or she provides a child with treatment by spiritual means through prayer alone for healing in accordance with the religious method of healing permitted" under other statutes "in lieu of medical or surgical treatment."

The Milwaukee Journal Sentinel (http://www.jsonline.com/)

So, folks, it looks like they might actually get away with it.

(emphasis mine)

They didn't use prayer alone. They pushed on his chest. IMO, they're guilty.

[zakur]

Originally posted by Starrman
An update from the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel (http://www.jsonline.com/news/metro/aug03/165087.asp) . The 'self-described minister' who laid on the child is being charged with felony child abuse. It's a start. That I don't get at all. Why just felony child abuse? They admit to wrapping the kid up and his death is ruled a homicide. Why is the charge not involuntary manslaughter - at the least?

[Starrman]

District Attorney E. Michael McCann said his office decided against homicide charges because the state would have been required to show that Hemphill realized his actions presented a "great likelihood" of causing great bodily harm or death to Terrance Cottrell Jr.

This (from the article) answers your question. Unfortunately it is a bitterly sad answer.

He "had lain on an 8-year-old autistic boy during a two-hour prayer session meant to expel demons " and he didn't realize it would cause great bodily harm or death? He is going to get off light thanks to his ignorance. :mad:

[Ralph]

Originally posted by evildave
Well, according to where your hypothetical beliefs could have extended, some religious thinking believes that all children too young (or disabled) to "accept their personal savior" will burn in Hell. (http://pub49.ezboard.com/ftruechristiansunitefrm7.showMessage?topicID=21.to pic)

Aborted fetuses, for instance, burn in Hell. (http://pub49.ezboard.com/ftruechristiansunitefrm7.showMessage?topicID=21.to pic)

Babies that get sick and die, burn in Hell. (http://pub49.ezboard.com/ftruechristiansunitefrm7.showMessage?topicID=21.to pic)

People without the higher-reasoning or whatever to understand... you guessed it, burn in Hell. (http://pub49.ezboard.com/ftruechristiansunitefrm7.showMessage?topicID=21.to pic)

Maybe that'll cheer you up?

Please tell me this website's a put-on...........

I noticed on the home-page----if you fail to send them a donation-----you'll burn in hell.........

I never realized failing to pull out the Visa card could have you frying for eternity..............

[Cinorjer]

They didn't use prayer alone. They pushed on his chest. IMO, they're guilty.

Ah yes, but we're talking a court of law here. A lawyer could argue that it's not up to the government to define exactly what constitutes "prayer". For some people, he/she will insist, prayer involves physical contact with the person being prayed for.

So what, exactly is the legal definition of prayer? Probably some sort of "ritual appeal to a higher power." Why shouldn't it include physical contact as part of the ritual?

The exception written into this law amazes me. The Christian fundamentalists agonize over every fetus, but once a child is born, they couldn't care less about a child's right to life when stacked against the parent's right to some crazy belief. Not if it's
"God's will" that the child die of an untreated disease or illness.

[teddygrahams]

Originally posted by Ralph


Please tell me this website's a put-on...........

I noticed on the home-page----if you fail to send them a donation-----you'll burn in hell.........

I never realized failing to pull out the Visa card could have you frying for eternity..............

Some of these quotes seem to be very funny:
The answer, of course, is NO... they are thrust into hell with all the rapists, murderers, chinamen and single mothers to roast eternally! To illustrate this finer point i produced an old baby doll, of which I have several saved from the early 80's when they were outlawed for being highly flammable.

On a final note, I would like to add that the thought of all those screaming infants in hell is enough to make you want to avoid the place at all costs, if you needed any more encouragement!

[evildave]

It doesn't matter if he said suicidal things, or for talk of evil, diabolical, destructive things, QUOTED THE BIBLE.

It's not generally considered "right" to kill someone just because they ask you to.

All "Shoot Me" might mean is he'd rather be dead than spend one more minute in that horrible place with all of those religiously afflicted psychopaths...

Wish Granted.

And people wonder why I wouldn't think of any "Heaven" where the fundies go as a good place....

Ralph:
The opposition has begun moving the monument, your prayers are urgently needed! Please take a moment to get on your knees for the Godly Judge Moore and our Constitutional right for religious freedom and expression!

Sounds like religious spew to me.

Their statements of belief (http://pub49.ezboard.com/ftruechristiansunitefrm7.showMessage?topicID=36.to pic)

So does this gibberish.

[evildave]

Minister barred from exorcisms
Suspect in death out on bail
http://www.jsonline.com/news/metro/aug03/165293.asp
A self-described minister facing a criminal charge in the death of an autistic child during a prayer session was ordered not to perform exorcisms as a bail condition during a Wednesday court appearance.

Ahh, so nice. Don't do any more exorcisms until the trial, you naughty boy!

[Pyrrho]

This is a prime example of how that wee speck of doubt about the reality of supernatural nonsense can be given legitimacy it does not deserve. They can't rule out that the boy may have genuinely possessed by demons, so the killer will go free. This is what happens when belief in the paranormal is carried to its logical conclusion.

I'd say he was possessed by "demons", and all of them attend Hemphill's church, and they killed him. And nobody seems to have the courage to do the right thing and charge the killers with murder. What an insane world we live in.

[Pyrrho]

Originally posted by Starrman
This (from the article) answers your question. Unfortunately it is a bitterly sad answer.

He "had lain on an 8-year-old autistic boy during a two-hour prayer session meant to expel demons " and he didn't realize it would cause great bodily harm or death? He is going to get off light thanks to his ignorance. :mad:
Don't you understand? The law of gravity is a law invented by man; righteous people only obey the laws of God, which allow for a 250-pound man to lie chest-to-chest with an 8-year old boy wrapped in sheets. God took the little boy's life -- presumably with the demons intact -- there being no sign that any of them got exorcised. These are the kinds of people that drove Christ himself to cry out, "How long must I remain with you?"

[arcticpenguin]

Originally posted by Pyrrho
This is a prime example of how that wee speck of doubt about the reality of supernatural nonsense can be given legitimacy it does not deserve. They can't rule out that the boy may have genuinely possessed by demons, so the killer will go free. This is what happens when belief in the paranormal is carried to its logical conclusion.

I'd say he was possessed by "demons", and all of them attend Hemphill's church, and they killed him. And nobody seems to have the courage to do the right thing and charge the killers with murder. What an insane world we live in.
An excellent point, but they're not entirely in the clear. By killing the boy, they released the demons which will now be forced to take up residency in other bodies. This may be a liability issue. If they had been responsible, they would have kept a herd of pigs nearby to serve as a ready receptacle for the freed demons.

[Pyrrho]

Originally posted by arcticpenguin
An excellent point, but they're not entirely in the clear. By killing the boy, they released the demons which will now be forced to take up residency in other bodies. This may be a liability issue. If they had been responsible, they would have kept a herd of pigs nearby to serve as a ready receptacle for the freed demons.
No, since the demons weren't exorcised, an argument could be made that they went back to Hell -- with the boy -- thus saving the church.

I'd better quit reading about this story, it's not good for my cynicism.

[reprise]

Originally posted by Pyrrho

No, since the demons weren't exorcised, an argument could be made that they went back to Hell -- with the boy -- thus saving the church.

I'd better quit reading about this story, it's not good for my cynicism.

I seem to recall one of the congregation members commenting that God had cured the boy of his affliction and "taken him home" - presumably, the demons were stow-aways on the journey.

Edited to add that I found the response to the thread I started on this issue on the Ghostvillage messageboard (http://www.ghostvillage.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=Wicca;action=display;num=1062132298) interesting.