SF and Fantasy - Your favorite books (recomendations and discussion) [Archive]

Jon.

19th July 2007, 01:52 PM

I quite liked Robert Sawyer's Neanderthal Parallax series, as well as Calculating God, in which aliens arrive on Earth and promote a sort of deism.

William Gibson can do no wrong, in my view (at least, he hasn't yet ... unless you count allowing Keanu Reeves to star in Johnny Mnemonic).

Bruce Sterling has drawn comparisons to Gibson (and collaborated with him on an alt-history novel, The Difference Engine) and has written some good stuff if you like cyberpunk.

Asimov is a wonderful storyteller, but not much in the way of developing characters.

In addition to Herbert's Dune series, I also read and enjoyed his stand-alone novel The White Plague.

Philip Kerr doesn't write exclusively (or even primarily) sf, but he's one of my favourite authors, and has done a couple of sf books: The Grid (also called Gridiron), The Second Angel and especially A Philosophical Investigation.

I'm sure there's more, but I can't think of them right now.

Pardalis

19th July 2007, 02:15 PM

My favourite is The Three Stigmata of Palmer Eldritch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Three_Stigmata_of_Palmer_Eldritch) hands down.

I crave for basically any of Philip K. Dick books from his sixties period. Before the sixties he was still looking for his style and themes, and after his mental breakdown of 1974, he became way too esoteric and woo for my taste.

Bikewer

19th July 2007, 06:21 PM

I must say that despite my love for sci-fi, I have never quite gotten Dick. I recall reading "Androids" many years ago and thinking, "wha...."

Then, after the release of Bladerunner, I thought I'd give it another go with my now much-more adult perspective.

Same reaction entirely.

Another icon of the genre that I never quite got onto is Delaney. I found a copy of Dhalgren in a used-book store. After chewing my way through it, I put it down and wondered just what that was all about...

Aside from Tolkein, a few fantasy writers I've enjoyed are Poul Anderson, E.R.R. Eddison (The Worm Oroborous) and C.J. Cherryh's "Morgaine" novels; though those are arguably science-fiction.

-Fran-

19th July 2007, 07:49 PM

I haven't read any SF or Fantasy books in quite some years actually. I'm not sure why, general lack of leasure reading time, I suppose. But as I have had the very nerdy habit all my life of writing down all the books I read, here's a list of books of the mentioned genres that I read and enjoyed at different levels at some point or another in my life.

At least I enjoyed them at the time. I wonder if I would feel the same if I read them again now?

The Crystal Cave - Mary Stewart (but the following parts I didn't like that much)
Alice in Wonderland & Through the Looking Glass - Lewis Carroll (Never read these as a child.)
Luck in the Shadows, Stalking Darkness & Traitor's Moon - Lynn Flewelling (Yeah, I like the homo-erotic stuff. Wanna make something of it? ;) )
Rendezvous with Rama & A Fall of Moondust - Arthur C, Clarke
The Great and Secret Show - Clive Barker
Ender's Game - Orson Scott Card (Didn't much like the ending though, as I remember it)
The Man in the High Castle & Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep - Philip K. Dick
Foundation, Foundation and Empire & Second Foundation - Isaac Asimov
Sophie's World - Jostein Gaarder (Does that one fit in with these genres?)
The Narrative of Arthur Gordon Pym of Nantucket - Edgar Allan Poe
Stardust - Neil Gaiman
The Gormenghast Trilogy - Mervyn Peake (I found parts of this book utterly boring, and other parts fascinating. Hard to tell what I really think of it)
Dune, Dune Messiah & Children of Dune - Frank Herbert (I remember reading through the first book in one sitting, couldn't put it down.)
The Summer Tree, The Wandering Fire & The Darkest Road - Guy Gavriel Kay (Why do all Fantasy stories come in threes?)
The Mists of Avalon - Marion Zimmer Bradley (Yeah, I did like this book, even though I found some things rather silly about it.)
The Weird of the White Wolf & The Bane of the Black Sword - Michael Moorcock
Felidae - Akif Pirincci
Messiah - Gore Vidal
Starship & Hothouse - Brian Aldiss
The Word For World is Forest, The Lathe of Heaven & The Wind's Twelve Quarters - Ursula K. Le Guin
Neuromancer - William Gibson
The Silver Metal Lover - Tanith Lee
Robot Dreams I - Isaac Asimov
Lord Foul's Bane, The Illearth War & The Power That Preserves - Stephen Donaldson
This Perfect Day - Ira Levin
The Sword in the Stone & The Queen of Air and Darkness - T. H. White
The Lord of the Rings Trilogy + The Hobbit & The Adventures of Tom Bombadil - J. R. R. Tolkien (I read these over 20 years ago, and almost didn't remember a thing when the films came, which I guess was good :))
The Never Ending Story - Michael Ende (I liked it as a kid.)
A Wizard of Earthsea, The Tombs of Atuan & The Farthest Shore - Ursula K. Le Guin
The First Two Lives of Lukas-Kasha - Lloyd Alexander (I loved Alexander as a kid, this was my favorite.)

OK, now I am going way too far back in the past :) I'll stop here.

Mark A. Siefert

19th July 2007, 09:14 PM

Oh, there are so MANY...

The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress by Robert Heinlein.
The Probability Broach by L. Neil Smith
Pallas by L. Neil Smith
The Hammer's Slammers Series by David Drake
The Honor Harrington Series by David Weber
Starship Troopers by Robert Heinlein
The Forever War by Joe Haldeman
The Foundation Trilogy by Issac Asimov (I don't count any books Beyond Second Foundation.)
Dune by Frank Herbert
Rendezvous With Rama by Arthur C. Clarke
The Fountains Of Paradise by Arthur C. Clarke
1984 by Geroge Orwell
The War Of The Worlds by H. G. Wells.
Queen Of Angles by Greg Bear
Snow Crash by Neal Stephenson
The Diamond Age by Neal Stephenson
The Dresden Files by Jim Butcher
The Martian Chronicles by Ray Bradbury
A Princess Of Mars by Edward Rice Burroughs
The Solomon Kane Stories by Robert Howard (I want to start reading the original Conan tales as soon as I can get ahold of them.)
Most of H.P. Lovecrafts Cthulhu Mythos stories, especially The Call Of Cthulhu, A Whisper In Darkness, At The Mountains Of Madness, and The Case of Charles Dexter Ward.
Hardwired by Walter E. Williams.

As for "christian sci-fi", isn't that a redundancy? :duck:

Yeah, old Orson Scott Card is a pretty hard-core Mormon bigot when last I checked. It's reason I don't read his tripe. (I do have his book "How To Write Science Fiction And Fantasy," but that was before I found out his religious/political leanings. That, and it IS a good book on the subject.)

Redtail

19th July 2007, 09:38 PM

Ender's Game. I love it.

quixotecoyote

19th July 2007, 11:43 PM

I have really mixed feelings about David Weber. The first two books in the Oath of Swords series, but the third was utterly uninteresting. I read his March Upcountry series which was really interesting in the first book but for the rest of them eschewed character development and just had the characters mowing down endless waves of inferior opponents.

Morrigan

20th July 2007, 01:27 AM

Fantasy: A Song of Ice and Fire, by George RR Martin
Sci-fi: Dune, by Frank Herbert

blobru

20th July 2007, 01:53 AM

What do you think of Gene Wolf, who's sort of a Christian?

I really like Gene Wolfe -- his xtianity wasn't obvious at all to me; in fact this's the first I've heard of it (+ "'The Island of Doctor Death and Other Stories' and Other Stories" might be the finest single author SF&F anthology I've ever read).

Another SF writer with a religious background I like is Walter M. Miller Jr. -- virtually anything by him -- short stories -- and especially "A Canticle for Leibowitz" (tragically, after this won the Hugo in 1961 for best novel, he never published another word, becoming a recluse and committing suicide in 1997).

Stanley Weinbaum is a great golden age SF writer. He died very young and hadn't written many stories but one of them, "A Martian Odyssey", still makes best of genre lists even though it was written in the 1920's (I think it finished second to Asimov's "Nightfall" in a writers' poll not too long ago).

And if you can tolerate the purple prose of that era, Clark Ashton Smith ("City of the Singing Flame" and sequel) and William Hope Hodgson ("The Nightland" -- very long novel, faux archaic English, but uniquely weird: think Lancelot vs Morlocks...).

Speaking of Morlocks, H G Wells of course; still the best pure writer (in English) in the history of SF I'd say. "The Time Machine", "The Island of Dr. Moreau", and "The Invisible Man", in addition to "War of the Worlds" already cited; 'nuff said.

Olaf Stapledon, a contemporary whom Wells admired a lot, wrote a couple of massively imaginative works, "Last and First Men" (a future history of humanity as it evolves into species beyond homo sapiens told by a member of the doomed last men), and "Star Maker" (a kind of catalog of all the varieties of life in the universe narrated by a disembodied earthling).

Outside of English: Yevgeny Zamyatin's "We" (especially the Mirra Ginsburg translation) is probably my favorite novel period: a dystopia where everyone's name's replaced by a number sounds like a recipe for cliche, but this satire of collectivism and conformity is amazingly prescient, considering it was written in 1921 in Russia just after the revolution, funnier than a monkey in a spacesuit, and exquisitely written, almost one long blank verse poem. Stanislaw Lem is another non-English writer I admire -- ''Solaris", "The Cyberiad", and though not strictly SF&F, "A Perfect Vacuum" (subtitled: 'perfect reviews of non-existent books'), which is fall out of your chair funny.

Also, though they seldom get mention in the fantasy genre, Jorge Luis Borges and Franz Kafka; maybe their symbolism isn't to the average fan's taste...?

I also enjoy as some other posters do Philip K Dick ("Do Androids...", "...Palmer Eldritch", and many short stories ["The Golden Man" and "Oh, To Be a Blobel!" come to mind]); as well, Kurt Vonnegut ("Cat's Cradle", where we first learn about wampeters, foma, and granfalloons, and short stories like "Harrison Bergeron").

Whoa... looks like I've gone on a wee bit long here... ok, "keep watching the stars!" ;)

MortFurd

20th July 2007, 01:56 AM

Not a novel, but well worth it if you can find it:
The Streets of Ashkelon by Harry Harrison.
http://www.iol.ie/~carrollm/hh/s029.htm

The title seems to come from here:
http://biblefu.com/2_Samuel/1.html

Very good story, very apropos for skeptics and atheists.

NeilC

20th July 2007, 03:51 AM

One hugely underated writer, in my opinion, is Lucius Sheppard. He's mostly short stories and novellas but is a master of the shorter story. Has a philosophical and human/sociological comment that you get with some of Dick's works but with an outstanding ability to write readable prose - something I've not found in many other SF writers. He does straight SF but also some non-genre stuff that combines SF, fantasy, magical realism and even horror.

Barnacle Bill the Spacer is a book of novellas and shorts that are quite representative of his work, aka Beast in the Heartland in the USA I believe. Here's a link to the first page of a short story called "A Little Night Music" which is a macabre little tale: http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:-uyq1I_U_TUJ:www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1430/is_n6_v14/ai_11910728+%22dead+men+can%27t+play+jazz%22&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=uk

I can't be done with straight fantasy books personally but I did enjoy Michael Swanwick's "The Iron Dragon's Daughter" which is a crooked take on the genre.

Matt the Poet

20th July 2007, 04:32 AM

Some Recommendations:

Ian McDonald –underated, although this is partially his own fault due to coming out with the occasional massively overwritten dud (Out on Blue Six, Ares Express). Check out ‘Chaga’ (published as ‘Evolution’s Shore’ in the US, I think) – full on sense of wonder, both at the weird alien stuff and the African landscape. Also, of course, his big Vikram Seth-but-in-the-future masterpiece ‘River of Gods’. I can’t wait to read his new one. It’s set in Brazil, apparently.

Adam Roberts – ‘Gradisil’ is amazing –the breathtaking opening, the extraordinary ‘fall to earth’ sequence (if you’ve read it you’ll now, if not read it), the subtle changes of language and spelling. Again, he’s had a few mis-steps (‘On’ and ‘Snow’ aren’t really worth the trouble)

M John Harrison – although I got a bit bored with ‘Nova Swing’, which was a bit style-over-substance, it’s predecessor ‘Light’ would have been a Man-Booker nominee in a less genre-averse world.

Steve Aylett – I can’t explain him. Nobody can. The most fun you’ll ever have while using your eyes to read words. ‘Shamanspace’ is close to poetry. ‘The Inflatable Volunteer’ is close to entropy.

And, of course (in a related note), the incomparable Jeff Lint.

Morrigan

20th July 2007, 01:06 PM

I have a purple hatred for Ender's Game, American Gods, and the Sword of Truth series.

fuelair

20th July 2007, 05:51 PM

I really like Gene Wolfe -- his xtianity wasn't obvious at all to me; in fact this's the first I've heard of it (+ "'The Island of Doctor Death and Other Stories' and Other Stories" might be the finest single author SF&F anthology I've ever read).

Another SF writer with a religious background I like is Walter M. Miller Jr. -- virtually anything by him -- short stories -- and especially "A Canticle for Leibowitz" (tragically, after this won the Hugo in 1961 for best novel, he never published another word, becoming a recluse and committing suicide in 1997).

Stanley Weinbaum is a great golden age SF writer. He died very young and hadn't written many stories but one of them, "A Martian Odyssey", still makes best of genre lists even though it was written in the 1920's (I think it finished second to Asimov's "Nightfall" in a writers' poll not too long ago).

And if you can tolerate the purple prose of that era, Clark Ashton Smith ("City of the Singing Flame" and sequel) and William Hope Hodgson ("The Nightland" -- very long novel, faux archaic English, but uniquely weird: think Lancelot vs Morlocks...).

Speaking of Morlocks, H G Wells of course; still the best pure writer (in English) in the history of SF I'd say. "The Time Machine", "The Island of Dr. Moreau", and "The Invisible Man", in addition to "War of the Worlds" already cited; 'nuff said.

Olaf Stapledon, a contemporary whom Wells admired a lot, wrote a couple of massively imaginative works, "Last and First Men" (a future history of humanity as it evolves into species beyond homo sapiens told by a member of the doomed last men), and "Star Maker" (a kind of catalog of all the varieties of life in the universe narrated by a disembodied earthling).

Outside of English: Yevgeny Zamyatin's "We" (especially the Mirra Ginsburg translation) is probably my favorite novel period: a dystopia where everyone's name's replaced by a number sounds like a recipe for cliche, but this satire of collectivism and conformity is amazingly prescient, considering it was written in 1921 in Russia just after the revolution, funnier than a monkey in a spacesuit, and exquisitely written, almost one long blank verse poem. Stanislaw Lem is another non-English writer I admire -- ''Solaris", "The Cyberiad", and though not strictly SF&F, "A Perfect Vacuum" (subtitled: 'perfect reviews of non-existent books'), which is fall out of your chair funny.

Also, though they seldom get mention in the fantasy genre, Jorge Luis Borges and Franz Kafka; maybe their symbolism isn't to the average fan's taste...?

I also enjoy as some other posters do Philip K Dick ("Do Androids...", "...Palmer Eldritch", and many short stories ["The Golden Man" and "Oh, To Be a Blobel!" come to mind]); as well, Kurt Vonnegut ("Cat's Cradle", where we first learn about wampeters, foma, and granfalloons, and short stories like "Harrison Bergeron").

Whoa... looks like I've gone on a wee bit long here... ok, "keep watching the stars!" ;)
Good List - you're going back to my era here (some hit big names - but.....

and on to Olaf Stapleton - Odd John and First and Last Men, Poul Anderson's
Three Hearts and Three Lions (and many others), Cordwainer Smith with Ballad of Lost C'mell, Harlan Ellison (too many to name), A.E. VanVogt, Doc Smith (Star Wars on Steroids), Jack Williamson, Roger Zelazny, Tenn, Merrill, Knight, Zenna Henderson (The People) (lousy TV movie though it could be done really well now) and on to Lord Dunsany, James Branch Cabell, William Hodgson, Ernest Brahma and the others brought to me by Ballentines' much lamented(passing) Adult Fantasy series!!! Derleth and Lovecraft and Brian (as opposed to Joanna who I admire in a different field) Lumley, Andre Norton, Anne McCaffery and that is just from the top of my head. Do I have preferences - yes. But have I read most of the output of these and others both listed and not (yet) listed in this thread? Yes, and many more than once - because they hold interest, many provided information and they were - and are fun!!!

blobru

21st July 2007, 04:33 AM

Cordwainer Smith with Ballad of Lost C'mell, Harlan Ellison (too many to name),

How could I forget the two Cordwainers, Smith and "Bird" ;) (Harlan's way of flipping off a publisher or producer whose final edit he wasn't happy with).

A lot of good suggestions in this thread; I drifted away from SF&F when many of my heroes moved or passed on but will have to check out a couple of the newer authors others have posted.

+, just noticed my parting quote is off: "Keep watching the stars skies!" from the first "The Thing", based on John W Campbell's "Who Goes There?" (tho' Carpenter's remake is much closer to the novella). And what is it about aliens/monsters frozen in the Antarctic? (Lovecraft too in "At the Mountains of Madness." And ERB's Caspak tales. Guess it seemed terra incognita as deep space a century ago.)

Corpse Cruncher

21st July 2007, 07:19 AM

William Gibson
Neil Gaiman
Guy Gavriel Kay

I guess I'd have to say those are my Big 3....
I love Neil Gaiman. Stardust was a very enjoyable story. I heard it is to be or was made into a film. I hope that is true.

Well it must be true, I found the trailer for it. http://www.stardustmovie.com/ :D

Oroborus

21st July 2007, 07:21 AM

The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever

that one pops to mind, I"m too tired to think of another at the moment.

slingblade

22nd July 2007, 12:29 PM

I read Octavia Butler's Xenogenesis as a book club edition, not realizing it was actually three novels in one, and adored her style. I highly recommend it/them.

I like Spider Robinson, but only in small, occasional doses, as his stuff tends to have the same, same, same flavor....I mean, reading one of his books is somewhat like reading them all. Yet, he is good. I just wish he'd change his voice up a bit. "Disillusioned hippie" gets old quickly. (And smells funny, too.)

I also loved Dune at first. It began to lose me in God Emperor, and I never did read more than a few pages of Chapter House. By that time, the only character I knew was Duncan Idaho, and he was never that interesting to start with.

OSC has another series besides Ender: the Alvin Maker series. I found that really interesting. Post-Colonial America, operating on the "what if magic really worked and everyone knew it?" premise.

I don't see what any author's religion or lack of it has to do with enjoying his work or not. I love Katherine Kurtz's work, and it's so Catholic it will have you genuflecting. Okay, it doesn't hurt that the religious are the bad guys, but still. :p

Having read Ender's Game long, long before I even knew what a Mormon was, much less that Uncle Orson was one, I can't see that I ever felt preached at, or as if I were being influenced by the author's religious beliefs. For that, see the original Battlestar Galactica, i.e. "Mormons in Space."

It just strikes me as an ad hom to worry about an author's being Christian, or any other religion. So what? If it's a good read, I couldn't care less if the writer goes to church on Sunday, or whatever.

For now, now that HP is done, I am eagerly awaiting the next GRRM Fire and Ice novel. Even though there are soooooo many characters, I am interested in each one, and I want to know what's happened to Tyrion, dammit!! :)

Morrigan

25th July 2007, 12:51 PM

Slingblade, did you read the preview Tyrion chapter GRRM posted on his website a while back? Pretty interesting and mouth-watering, to say the least. Tyrion is becoming a very dark character, looks like.

I am very impatiently awaiting the next book myself. Dany, Tyrion <3

Ender's Game didn't really have religious propaganda, no, but it still really sucked. Hard. I learned much later than Scott Card is a creationist douchebag, so it just brought down my lack of respect for him a notch further. :P

You should have continued with the last two Dunes, really. I was also faltering at God-Emperor, it's drowned in an endless sea of philobabble and meanderings with hardly any plot, but I find the last two to be genuinely awesome, nearly as good as the first book, and criminally underrated. Odrade is one fascinating character, I liked her a lot.

ZirconBlue

25th July 2007, 01:18 PM

Most of my favorites have already been mentioned, but I'll add:

Katharine Kerr's Deverry Cycle, and Dave Duncan's King's Blades novels.

Jon.

25th July 2007, 01:43 PM

OSC has another series besides Ender: the Alvin Maker series. I found that really interesting. Post-Colonial America, operating on the "what if magic really worked and everyone knew it?" premise.

I don't see what any author's religion or lack of it has to do with enjoying his work or not. I love Katherine Kurtz's work, and it's so Catholic it will have you genuflecting. Okay, it doesn't hurt that the religious are the bad guys, but still. :p

Having read Ender's Game long, long before I even knew what a Mormon was, much less that Uncle Orson was one, I can't see that I ever felt preached at, or as if I were being influenced by the author's religious beliefs. For that, see the original Battlestar Galactica, i.e. "Mormons in Space."

It just strikes me as an ad hom to worry about an author's being Christian, or any other religion. So what? If it's a good read, I couldn't care less if the writer goes to church on Sunday, or whatever.

OSC's other other series (I think it's called Homecoming) is another retelling of the story of the Mormons in a sf context. It's not bad, until the end when there's an egregious deus ex machina.

eir_de_scania

25th July 2007, 02:03 PM

Terry Pratchett. I'm an ardent fan who pre-orders his books as soon as I can. That means about 6 months in advance. I also have the calenders and almanacs.

I like Diana Wynne Jones a lot as well, but I prefer her YA/adult books. And I like Harry Potter as well, but I'm one of the marauders-generation fans. :p It's an entertaining story even if it's got plot holes you can ride a horse through.

nw843x

25th July 2007, 02:49 PM

Believe it or not, L. Ron Hubbard (I know, I know) acually wrote 11 good books. Forget that John Revolta ever had anything to with Battlefield Earth(crappiest movie ever) and fina copy. It really is a good book even though it is around 1100 pages. Mission Earth is a ten book series also by LRH and is very good a well.

(please do not view this as me trying to shamelessly plug LRH or Scientology - it is all hooey as far as I am concerned)

Thomas Covenant - Greatest anti hero ever. It is kind of depressing in some spots though, but otherwise an excellent story.

Infinite Possibilities by Isaac Asimov - 3 very very cool short stories about colonizing other planets.

Anything by Robert A. Heinlein is always a good bet. A Stranger in a Strange Land should be required reading for anyone into SF.

For really good SF/Fantasy mix stories you cannot go wrong with The Sword of Shannara series by Terry Brooks. Plus see here - http://www.readersread.com/cgi-bin/bookblog.pl?bblog=606071

Hopefully it gets done right!

Brainache

26th July 2007, 06:20 AM

Apart from all the classics already listed I would put in a vote for Stephen Baxter.

The Xeelee Sequence and Destiny's Children series of books is worth reading again and again. A giant sprawling future history of the universe which is truly mind boggling. Not since I was a teenager reading Van Vogt for the first time has my mind been so comprehensively boggled.

Evolution (also by Baxter) takes real examples from the fossil record and weaves them into a compelling family history of humanity. From small mammals hiding from dinosaurs through the rise of mammals, to primates, hominids, to the birth of civilization and the modern world. Which is all very well and good, but then he takes us into the future and his speculations about the possibilities of what natural selection might mean for our descendants are not only plausible but also frightening. Just brilliant.

Oh and his other books are pretty good too. See his sequel to HG Wells' The Time Machine- The Time Ships.

jimbob

26th July 2007, 12:08 PM

Ender's Game - Orson Scott Card (Didn't much like the ending though, as I remember it)

That is because the tamborines started up...

Foundation, Foundation and Empire & Second Foundation - Isaac Asimov

I just reread it and it seemed really poor

Oh, there are so MANY...

The Forever War by Joe Haldeman

Great book, lame ending, and as for Forever Free and forever Peace....

As for "christian sci-fi", isn't that a redundancy? :duck:

Yeah, old Orson Scott Card is a pretty hard-core Mormon bigot when last I checked. It's reason I don't read his tripe. (I do have his book "How To Write Science Fiction And Fantasy," but that was before I found out his religious/political leanings. That, and it IS a good book on the subject.)

And Ben Bova?

I don't like it if you can hear the tamborines

jimbob

27th July 2007, 12:24 PM

I think there are a good crop of British writers at the moment

Iain M Banks (obviously)

Neal Asher (his "polity" is Culture-lite)

Ken Macleod (e.gthe Cassini Division) if you can get past the idea that the Scottish trots of '74 have an undue influence on the future of the galaxy... One story starts in another stellar system, and ends on Rannoch Moor FFS... He is a friend of Iain M Banks.

Richard Morgan Altered Carbon etc

Alistair Reynolds Revelation Space, though the last book in the series just ended...

Mark A. Siefert

27th July 2007, 12:32 PM

Right now, M. A. R. Barker's Empire Of The Petal Throne books are beginning to interest me, largely because some of my gamer buddies into the Tékumel RPG. (http://www.tekumel.com/)

aries

27th July 2007, 03:23 PM

I like most anything by Ursual K. Le Guin, but especially the Dispossed. It discusses the idea of state (or society) in which everyone doesn't own (personal) possesions.

I've bought a book called Winterbirth and another book called The Magicians' Guild. Very nice books, too :)

And just to tout the Danish horns a little:

Lene Kaaberboel's Shamer-series is a must as is any of the books written by Josefine Ottesen. Very good writers, even better than a certain HP-MOM ;)

-Fran-

27th July 2007, 06:47 PM

I just reread it and it seemed really poor

I liked the idea presented in the Foundation books, but yeah, they lacked a whole lot in characterizarion I think.

Mark A. Siefert

30th July 2007, 08:08 PM

Right now, M. A. R. Barker's Empire Of The Petal Throne books are beginning to interest me, largely because some of my gamer buddies into the Tékumel RPG. (http://www.tekumel.com/)

I was able to track down a copy of the first Tékumel novel, "Man Of Gold" (it's sadly out of print) and I'm eight chapters into it. So far it's very good. Barker indeed paints a very detailed fantasy world.

Wheezebucket

30th July 2007, 08:58 PM

Sirens of Titan is my all-time favorite. Just got through the first three Dune books, loving them so far. More on the list but I'm on my way out the door, so that's a good start!

Hapexamendios

1st August 2007, 04:46 AM

Fantasy I like:

Anything by Pratchett
Terry Brooks' Shannara series (or the first three at least)
Tad Williams' Memory, Sorrow and Thorn
The Hobbit (read it as a child and re-read it recently, I probably enjoyed it even more)
Tom Holt - esp. Odds and Gods, Flying Dutch and Nothing But Blue Skies

Fantasy I don't like:

Anything by David Gemmell or David Eddings
The Lord of the Rings - I'd rather wear a sweaty sumo's jockstrap on my head than plough through that dense pile of tripe again

Sci-fi I like:

Dune, up until Children of Dune, I also enjoyed Herbert's The Eyes of Heisenberg
Iain Banks' Culture series
Richard Morgan, violent but thoughtful
GRR Martin's Tuf Voyaging, read it with a huge grin on my face throughout, Haviland Tuf a hugely likeable protagonist
Allen Wold's Star God

Sci-fi I don't like:

Orson Scott Card's Shadow series, characterisation worthy of the Teletubbies

jimbob

1st August 2007, 02:24 PM

<snip>
Fantasy I don't like:

Anything by David Gemmell or David Eddings
The Lord of the Rings - I'd rather wear a sweaty sumo's jockstrap on my head than plough through that dense pile of tripe again

I quite like Gemmel as something brainless, but I'd agree with you about Eddings

Sci-fi I don't like:

Orson Scott Card's Shadow series, characterisation worthy of the Teletubbies

I liked Ender's Game until the end, when he lost the "plot"...

And I think you are being a bit harsh on the telletubbies, certainly there is better characterisation in the Tweenies or Balamory (Thank the FSM my kids are old enough not to watch that now)

Mojo

1st August 2007, 03:23 PM

Hmm, let's see...

Aside from the obvious suspects already mentioned, for example:

Iain M. Banks
Ken Macleod
Steven Baxter
Neal Stevenson
William Gibson
Philip K. Dick

How about:

Greg Egan
John Sladek (especially Roderick/Roderick at Random and Tik-Tok)
Kim Stanley Robinson (the Mars trilogy in particular)
Paul J McAuley
Michael Marshall Smith
Pat Cadigan
Jeff Noon
John Courtenay Grimwood
Jack Womack
Rudy Rucker
Christopher Priest
Alfred Bester

And for individual books/series:

Brian Aldiss: Helliconia trilogy (also Non-Stop & Hothouse)
Pohl & Kornbluth: The Space Merchants
Jonathan Lethem: Gun With Occasional Music (imagine a Philip K. Dick rewrite of the Big Sleep and/or the Maltese Falcon featuring a kangaroo in a dinner jacket)
Allan Steele's earlier stuff (sort of low-orbit near-future space opera)
Gregory Benford: Timescape
C. J. Cherryh's space opera series (I haven't read her more fantasy oriented stuff)
Ward Moore: Bring the Jubilee
Daniel Keyes: Flowers for Algernon

Mojo

1st August 2007, 03:27 PM

Lisa Simpson

1st August 2007, 03:32 PM

Does anyone know of titles that are sort of sci fi (or fantasy) crossed with mystery? I love Jim Butcher's Harry Dresden series, and I'm looking for some more along those lines.

Mojo

1st August 2007, 03:52 PM

Terry Pratchett - 30 some Discworld books and they are all funny.And what about Robert Rankin?
Greg Bear (Forge of God, Anvil of Stars....The "big idea" man.)
Frank Herbert (at least the first three Dune books; avoid the current ones like the plague...)
China Mieville (Perdido Street Station, The Scar.... a new master of prose.Bear is great. I wouldn't bother with the Dune series after the first one. Mieville is good, but sometimes his prose runs away with him a little.

Rendezvous with Rama & A Fall of Moondust - Arthur C, Clarke
The Man in the High Castle & Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep - Philip K. Dick
The Gormenghast Trilogy - Mervyn Peake (I found parts of this book utterly boring, and other parts fascinating. Hard to tell what I really think of it)
Starship & Hothouse - Brian Aldiss
The Word For World is Forest, The Lathe of Heaven & The Wind's Twelve Quarters - Ursula K. Le GuinClarke is great on the "sense of wonder", although his characters are sometimes a little thin.

Those are a couple of good PKD titles. I'd also particularly recommend Martian Time-Slip.

The first two books of Gormenghast are good. The third, which Peake didn't finish, meanders a little.

Was Aldiss' Starship an alternative title for Non-Stop?

Another good LeGuin Title is The Left Hand of Darkenss.

One hugely underated writer, in my opinion, is Lucius Sheppard. I've read a couple of his books - both good.

Adam Roberts – ‘Gradisil’ is amazing –the breathtaking opening, the extraordinary ‘fall to earth’ sequence (if you’ve read it you’ll now, if not read it), the subtle changes of language and spelling. Again, he’s had a few mis-steps (‘On’ and ‘Snow’ aren’t really worth the trouble)

M John Harrison – although I got a bit bored with ‘Nova Swing’, which was a bit style-over-substance, it’s predecessor ‘Light’ would have been a Man-Booker nominee in a less genre-averse world.

Steve Aylett – I can’t explain him. Nobody can. The most fun you’ll ever have while using your eyes to read words. ‘Shamanspace’ is close to poetry. ‘The Inflatable Volunteer’ is close to entropy. I particularly enjoyed The Crime Studio as well.

I haven't read Nova Swing yet, but light was good.

I like most of Roberts' stuff. Haven't read Snow yet (it's in my "to read" pile), On is OK but runs out of plot.

brodski

1st August 2007, 04:14 PM

Does anyone know of titles that are sort of sci fi (or fantasy) crossed with mystery? I love Jim Butcher's Harry Dresden series, and I'm looking for some more along those lines.

Asimovs caves of steel books are sci-fi detective stories.

Mojo

1st August 2007, 05:31 PM

Does anyone know of titles that are sort of sci fi (or fantasy) crossed with mystery?

Greg Egan's Quarantine is a sci-fi/detective novel.

Jasper Fforde?

jimbob

1st August 2007, 10:45 PM

Jasper Fforde.

That deserves a genre all to itself, quite possibly the most barking set of books that I have enjoyed reading. Inspiredly insane. I would put Robert Rankin up there too, but Fforde is even more Thursday Next.

Mojo

2nd August 2007, 03:20 AM

Jasper Fforde.

That deserves a genre all to itself, quite possibly the most barking set of books that I have enjoyed reading.

Have you read any Steve Aylett?

Aparuit

2nd August 2007, 10:36 AM

SO...
interesting, got some names I don't recognize

but...
does anyone hate Harry Potter, or dislikes him?
I mean, come one...
I try to steer clear from these discussions in real life
since it seems useless. Books have gotten worse than politics. People will kill you if you don't like things that they like, and will actively try to bring you down, accuse you of being elitist (which in normal society is a kiss of death).
For me it's more sad than infuriating...

Bikewer

2nd August 2007, 01:02 PM

Different strokes....

My wife loves Harry Potter, and devoured the last book in three nights straight. I read the first one and said "cute, but...." Didn't grab me.

I see a reference above to the "Shannarra" series. I picked up a copy of the very first book years ago, read the synopsis, and thought I was reading a synopsis of Tolkien.... I dunno, maybe the books are fine.

One fellow thinks Tolkien is drek, I've re-read the trilogy every few years since the 60s. Wonderful stuff.

Does any of that prove anything? We all come from different backgrounds and have different tastes.
The late Isaac Asimov, when he was still involved with the monthly magazine, was taken to task several times for publishing stories that were note "sci-fi" enough.
He maintained that if it was a good story, it was a good story, regardless of genre. I rather agree.

Lisa Simpson

2nd August 2007, 01:06 PM

gumboot

2nd August 2007, 01:42 PM

SO...
interesting, got some names I don't recognize

but...
does anyone hate Harry Potter, or dislikes him?
I mean, come one...

Yes, I dislike Harry Potter. I tried to read the first book once and gave up pretty quickly. They're kids books, and I'm not really interested in reading kids books.

Judging people by their likes/dislikes is pretty stupid if you ask me. I work in the film industry, so obviously spend much of my time with highly skilled experienced and gifted filmmakers. Yet even so our taste in films varies enormously.

Regarding the OP, someone had a similar thread in the entertainment subforum so I've pasted in my reply to that thread...

It was only regarding Fantasy, but I don't really read Sci-Fi much; the only Sci-Fi I've really enjoyed is Douglas Adams' work.

There's basically a set of works that I consider fantastic, and everything else I've read I've been pretty unimpressed with.

No real rank to these, I rank them all very highly.

A Song Of Ice And Fire by George R R Martin
PRO: Writes the gritty "historic fantasy" style I write myself, and prefer. Willingness to rip your guts out without warning (the Wedding floored me).
CON: Too many characters, and sometimes the ruthlessness just gets too much. Writes too slowly.

The Camulod Chronicles by Jack Whyte
PRO: Very authentic Arthurian retelling. Rewards familiarity with the original legend, and by covering an expanse of generations you really get a feel for the dynasty of the family.
CON: Gets a bit religious-preachy at times due to the long in depth philosophical discussions the characters have.

The Bitterbynde by Cecilia Dart-Thornton
PRO: Fantastic celtic feel to the story, and some really great concepts such as the eotaurs and windships.
CON: To be honest can't remember any.

The Farseer Trilogy by Robin Hobb
PRO: Once more a more "historic" setting, complex characters, more focused "small world", revolving around a single castle, and giving a different slant to fantasy by looking at the role of the silent assassin in the shadows rather than the hero with the sword.
CON: A story about a man, written by a woman, and it shows. Fitz is a girl. I don't mean that as an insult. Men and women think differently, and Fitz does not think like a man.

The Liveship Traders by Robin Hobb
PRO: As per above, again, a non-mainstream fantasy setting, dealing with ships. I think the characters are more interesting in this series.
CON: Similar to Song of Ice and Fire - sometimes you just need things to go the heroes' way, even just for a moment.

I especially enjoyed reading the Liveships because I had already read Farseer, and I liked the hints and allusions to links in the two series without it even being spelled out. I haven't read the third set.

Merlin Trilogy by Mary Stewart
PRO: As per the Camulod series, a historically plausible retelling of Arthur. I especially like that you could never be sure if there was ever any magic.
CON: To be honest it has been too long since I read it.

Warlord Trilogy by Bernard Cornwell
PRO: Another Arthurian series, this time following one of Arthur's champion soldiers. Especially useful from a battle perspective as Cornwell has a lot of expertise in writing military subject matter with his Sharpe novels.
CON: Cornwell managed the tragedy of Arthur so well it left a bitter taste in your mouth.

Stonehenge by Bernard Cornwell
PRO: Refreshing shift of setting to 2000BC. Recreation of the sort of society that might have built Stonehenge was very authentic.
CON: Has been a while since I read it.

Discworld Series by Terry Pratchett
PRO: Simply masterful satire. What impresses me is the depth of knowledge Pratchett appears to have of the various things he is satirising. Having done a lot of theatre, there was a heap of details in Masquerade that only a theatre person would pick up on.
CON: Need more!

The Sarantine Mosaic by Guy Gavriel Kay
PRO: Imperial setting, interesting subject matter (mosaics!), excellent authentic feeling world with the chariot factions, dancers, etc. Role of religion and so forth.
CON: Too short.

The Chronicles of Narnia by C S Lewis
PRO: Am surprised no one has mentioned this. Religious aspects aside, I think these books are often shafted as a poor cousin to Lord of the Rings by I think the Narnia series is at least equal if not better.
CON: Religious allegory and aimed at children.

Fire Of Heaven by Russell Kirkpatrick
PRO: I've only read book one (Across The Face Of The World thus far of this new trilogy from a fellow New Zealand writer, but thus far I have been impressed.
CON: Haven't read the other two books, and a little dry at times.

And although not really fantasy:

Gates Of Fire by Stephen Pressfield
PRO: One of the best books ever written.
CON: Nothing.

-Gumboot

Giz

2nd August 2007, 04:05 PM

GUMBOOT:
Gates Of Fire by Stephen Pressfield
PRO: One of the best books ever written.
CON: Nothing.

Really? I thought I'd Like it. I wanted to like it. I think the authors prose and pacing just wasn't quite good enough to do justice to it... Pressfield is no Wallace Breem (Eagle in the Snow) or Michael Shaara (Killer Angels). Heck, he would have done better if he'd got a cheesemonger like Bernard Cornwall to ghost write some of it...

Blank

3rd August 2007, 05:31 AM

I'm not a big sf reader, but I enjoyed the Hyperion series by Dan Simmons. Since Pohl is already mentioned you might want to check up Gateway as well.. Left hand of darkness by Le Guinn was also a nice read.

Mojo

3rd August 2007, 06:02 AM

The late Isaac Asimov, when he was still involved with the monthly magazine, was taken to task several times for publishing stories that were not "sci-fi" enough.

Well, how do you define "sci-fi"?

Zax63

3rd August 2007, 09:48 AM

Does anyone know of titles that are sort of sci fi (or fantasy) crossed with mystery? I love Jim Butcher's Harry Dresden series, and I'm looking for some more along those lines.

"Darkworld Detective" by J. Michael Reeves are detective stories set on a world where magic and sci-fi exist side by side. The stories are The Big Spell," "The Maltese Vulcan," "Murder On The Galactic Express," and "The Man With The Golden Raygun".
Larry Niven's "Long ARM of Gil Hamilton" is a collection of short sci-fi mystery stories.

Zax63

3rd August 2007, 09:53 AM

And what about Robert Rankin?

I haven't read anything of his yet. Looks interesting. Any suggestion on what to start with?

Bikewer

3rd August 2007, 12:53 PM

Well, how do you define "sci-fi"?

Hehe- the question that has vexed science-fiction fans for ages! I have listened with interest as people discussed "hard" vs. "soft" science fiction, whether or not "magical realism" might qualify, and whether Ray Bradbury was actually a science-fiction writer.

I recall standing in a bookstore with several other fans and mentioning that I liked Harlan Ellison. One fellow (voice dripping with contempt) said, "I don't read SOFT science-fiction!"

I do....

To me, qualification as science-fiction should include some element of speculative science, and some extrapolation as to how that science might affect individuals or societies. It could be an examination of the science itself, or lean more towards the impact.
Jack Vance, for instance, usually stays on the fuzzy side of science in order to create wonderful worlds and societies that have been shaped by it.
No tedious explanations of how interstellar travel might work; you simply jump in your ship, program coordinates, and punch the "space-splitter" button.

blobru

3rd August 2007, 01:22 PM

Spot on definition by instantiation:
... "soft" science fiction...
No tedious explanations of how interstellar travel might work; you simply jump in your ship, program coordinates, and punch the "space-splitter" button.
&
Fantasy: ... you simply saddle up your unicorn, whisper in its ear, and give it a crack on the fanny. :)

Mojo

3rd August 2007, 02:54 PM

Mojo

3rd August 2007, 02:57 PM

And what about Robert Rankin?I haven't read anything of his yet. Looks interesting. Any suggestion on what to start with?

Start at the beginning with The Antipope (the first book in the Brentford Trilogy, which currently runs to 8 books).

Temporal Renegade

3rd August 2007, 05:42 PM

All of the Mars series by Edgar Rice Burroughs

Robert E. Howard's Solomon Kane and King Kull stories

Michael Moorcock's Eternal Champion series, especially the Elric ones

Dune and Dune Messiah (Haven't read the others yet)

The Worm Ouroboros

The King of Elf-Land's Daughter

The Gormenghast series (Titus Groan, Gormenghast, Titus Alone)

Ringworld and The Ringworld Engineers

Just about the entire H.P. Lovecraft catalogue

The Foundation Trilogy

Rendezvous With Rama (Haven't read the other ones yet)

The Logan's Run trilogy (Yes, there was one)

Mark A. Siefert

4th August 2007, 08:13 PM

I just finished "The Man Of Gold." Not bad, the ending could have used a bit more foreshadowing, but it was quite readable.

Angus McPresley

5th August 2007, 08:03 AM

I just reread [Foundation series] and it seemed really poor

Me too! At least the first one. I don't know why it's considered a classic.

Old school, I still like Asimov, and Clarke, Heinlein, and Bester.

New school, I like Greg Egan, Stephen Baxter, Charles Stross. Also, Ted Chiang -- he's only written ten or so stories, but several of them are absolute gems; everything you want -- great ideas and well developed characters, and he gets the science right.

Here's some short stories I've enjoyed recently:

Charles Stross, Lobsters (http://www.asimovs.com/Nebulas03/Lobsters.shtml)

Greg Egan, Oceanic (http://gregegan.customer.netspace.net.au/OCEANIC/Complete/Oceanic.html)

Ted Chiang, "Story Of Your Life"

Isaac Asimov, The Last Question (http://www.multivax.com/last_question.html)

Geoffrey Landis, "The Long Chase"

Jack London, The Mexican (http://www.classicreader.com/read.php/bookid.1200/sec./)

Okay, that last one's not science fiction, but it's a damn good story anyway!

Bikewer

5th August 2007, 09:38 AM

"Alternate History" is sometimes lumped in with science-fiction, but much of it doesn't qualify to my way of thinking. Oh, it's speculative, all right, but where's the science?
"If the South won the Civil War" could be a fine plot for an AH book, but science is not germane to the plot.

Now, someone did that series where there's an alien invasion in the middle of WWII...That would qualify. I must add that I have not generally been a fan of the genre, though Asimov's published a bunch of good stories wherein the Roman Empire never fell, and carried forward to the present day.

quixotecoyote

5th August 2007, 01:11 PM

If you're going to read the foundation series, stop with the first three. It's a lot better that way. The other two are tack-ons.

Myriad

5th August 2007, 01:39 PM

Engine Summer and Little, Big by John Crowley. They were out of print and very hard to find for a few years, but Engine Summer was reprinted in a collection called Otherwise: Three Novels in 2002 and Little Big was just reprinted last fall. (If you prefer hardcover, expect to pay hundreds of dollars for a copy!)

I've read just about everything mentioned in this thread so far. In accordance with the thread title, those two by Crowley are my favorite books, out of all of them and everything else I've read.

Respectfully,
Myriad

Matt the Poet

6th August 2007, 06:10 AM

To me, qualification as science-fiction should include some element of speculative science, and some extrapolation as to how that science might affect individuals or societies. It could be an examination of the science itself, or lean more towards the impact.

Exactly. For me, Kazuo Ishiguro’s ‘Never Let Me Go’ counts as SF, even though there’s no detail at all about the cloning process, as does ‘Gravity’s Rainbow’, even though its set in the past. ‘Star Wars’ doesn’t, even though it’s got spaceships and that.

Ishiguro seriously considers the social effects of current advances in biological science and Pynchon shows how individuals get caught up in the frantic technology of war, whereas Star Wars borrows a set of space-opera tropes as window dressing for a fantasy plot.

Incidentally, the WWII/Alien Invasion thing is Harry Turtledove’s ‘WorldWar’ series. A fun idea, badly written, and as such it provides a perfect example of what I’ve always thought was the problem with ‘Hard’ SF in the informal sense. I don’t think a book can survive on cool technology and ideas alone – there has to be solid characterisation, literary flair, all the things that you would expect from any novelist in any other genre and which certain SF authors (fewer now than in the so-called ‘Golden Age’) seem to repudiate as a matter of honour.

brodski

6th August 2007, 06:22 AM

Start at the beginning with The Antipope (the first book in the Brentford Trilogy, which currently runs to 8 books).

Agreed, the Brentford trilogy are (IMHO)much better and more coherent than the (very fun) mess of Armageddon: the Musical and They Came and Ate Us: Armageddon II, the B Movie

And Barry the Time Sprout agrees too. :D

Mojo

6th August 2007, 06:30 AM

Agreed, the Brentford trilogy are (IMHO)much better and more coherent than the (very fun) mess of Armageddon: the Musical and They Came and Ate Us: Armageddon II, the B Movie

And Barry the Time Sprout agrees too. :D

Although the first one I read was Armageddon: the Musical when it first came out (actually a few days before it came out, as my local bookshop at the time was no respecter of embargoes), and it was good enough for me to try to find the others. Unfortunately they weren't in print, so I actually started the Brentford Trilogy with The Sprouts of Wrath which I found in a library.

brodski

6th August 2007, 06:37 AM

Although the first one I read was Armageddon: the Musical when it first came out (actually a few days before it came out, as my local bookshop at the time was no respecter of embargoes), and it was good enough for me to try to find the others. Unfortunately they weren't in print, so I actually started the Brentford Trilogy with The Sprouts of Wrath which I found in a library.

I started with the Armageddon books too, as AtM was doing the rounds at my school, and I followed it up with the Raiders of the Lost Car Park series, and then a few of the one offs (Greatest show off earth and my nice, signed copy of A dog called demolition), It wasn’t until later that I started on his Brentford books, which I think are certainly his best.

Mojo

6th August 2007, 06:53 AM

Has anyone else read Scepticism Inc. by Bo Fowler?

rtalman

6th August 2007, 05:02 PM

Has anyone mentioned Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series yet for fantasy? I have really enjoyed the series up until the last couple of installments, now I keep reading them just because I want to find out how it all ends.

I also like Piers Anthony, especially his Xanth series.

Uzzy

6th August 2007, 05:35 PM

I'm surprised that Dan Simmons hasn't been mentioned more. I recently read his Hyperion Cantos (that is Hyperion, Fall of Hyperion, Endymion and Rise of Endymion) which were very good, if you enjoy Epic Sci-Fi and Space Opera. I would also highly recommend his Ilium/Olympus series, which blends the Trojan War, Sci-fi and Shakespeare loving robots into one wacky whole. Good stuff though.

In a similar style, Peter F. Hamilton has many good novels, though my favourite of his has to be Fallen Dragon. The Nights Dawn Trilogy, while good, had a poor ending.

When it comes to fantasy, the best book I've read recently would have to be Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell. It's set during an alternate 19th Century England, around the time of the Napoleonic wars, and it's to do with the re-emergence of magic in England. It's a truly fascinating book, with an old feel to it, like it's a newly discovered manuscript of a time long past. Highly recommended.

Has anyone else read Scepticism Inc. by Bo Fowler?

I did. What an interesting idea, eh? I've been tempted to try it out on some of my more religious friends!

juryjone

6th August 2007, 06:02 PM

I just started re-reading Philip José Farmer's Riverworld series, which I enjoyed 25 years ago. I also liked The Mote in God's Eye and Lucifer's Hammer, by Niven and Pournelle.

I also have read a LOT of SF short stories. At least 95% of the short stories I've read are SF.

Stellafane

6th August 2007, 06:05 PM

Many, many of my all-time favorites have already been discussed, so I'll add three I haven't seen mentioned yet: The Lathe of Heaven by LeGuin, Mission of Gravity by Clement, and (above all) Riddley Walker by Hoban, the one book that I wish I had written myself.

Sleeperservice

6th August 2007, 06:15 PM

Iain M. Banks - “Excession”

One of my all time favorite books. I don't know why but i always liked SF with exciting Spaceships in them. (I guess because you need them too explore space). And if they have Minds. Wow! ;)
The Culture. Well... I hope mankind get there someday.

M. John Harrison - "Light". Has also a very good Spaceship story in it. (the K-Ships)

Morrigan

18th August 2007, 12:17 AM

No mention for Tad William's Otherland series? A bit long-winded, but an otherwise excellent sci-fi/somewhat cyberpunk epic. His fantasy series, "Memory, Sorrow & Thorn", is also way above-average.

Gregory

18th August 2007, 01:42 AM

I've been told that Michael Moorcock is a bad writer; this is probably true, but I like him anyway.

Two people have mentioned Jack Vance. I tried reading Dead Earth and enjoyed some of it, but when I tried to read the stuff with Cudgel, I just couldn't get over what a completely horrible person he is. I mean, nobody wants a saint, but most protagonists have some sort of redeeming features.

Mojo

18th August 2007, 03:24 AM

I've been told that Michael Moorcock is a bad writer; this is probably true, but I like him anyway.

The only one of his I've read is Mother London, which was OK as far as I remember (I have a particular liking for SF/Fantasy set in London).

Bikewer

18th August 2007, 05:57 AM

Hehe- Cudgel the Clever. A thorough rogue and a sad sack at the same time. Never quite victorious. Vance is one of my favorite authors.

Matt the Poet

20th August 2007, 05:29 AM

I've been told that Michael Moorcock is a bad writer; this is probably true, but I like him anyway.

Just coming, exhausted and stunned, to the end of his Pyat Quartet - historical rather than SF (even the fantastical elements like the attempt to build a 'death ray' during the civil war in Russia) turn out to have been meticulously researched - but totally amazing.

erlando

20th August 2007, 07:42 AM

Bikewer

20th August 2007, 07:52 AM

For those to whom it may be news: Gibson's new book, Spook Country, is out now. It's apparently set in the same framework as Pattern Recognition.

Raskolnikov

20th August 2007, 08:12 AM

I'm not a huge fantasy fan (no more orcs, please!), but the Malazan books by Steven Erikson are among the most enjoyable books I have ever read. The average Lord of the Rings fan will probably not like this series, but for anyone who wants a dark, brutal and (very) complex story, I heartily recommend it.

Matt the Poet

21st August 2007, 02:43 AM

I'll second Peter Hamilton. I'm just reading "Pandora's Star" and have previously read Fallen Dragon and the Nights Dawn trilogy. Excellent SciFi.

Gibson is a must. :)

Neal Stephenson pre-Baroque Cycle: The Diamond Age and especially Snow Crash are must cyberpunk-reads. I think the latter is even better than Gibson's Neuromancer. Also Stephenson's Cryptonomicon is a very good read (if not exactly SciFi).

/S

Just started on Hamilton's new one "The Dreaming Void" - set 1,000 or so years later in the same universe as Pandora's Star. Interesting set-up, and as usual a very interesting 'big bad' (if bad it be...

Cryptonomicon is wonderfully written and (unlike the Baroque Cycle) gripping, but I found some of the underlying politics a little irksome...

christie malry

21st August 2007, 07:01 AM

Re Moorcock, I've only read Behold The Man, but I thought that was great. Out of interest, bad writer how? I don't remember any particular howlers or anything stylistically that stuck out.

[If you want really appallingly written, turgid SF, I'd nominate the Rama series by Arthur C Clarke. Good god, they went on and on and on...]

Bikewer

21st August 2007, 07:53 AM

It's been a long time since I read the "Elric" stories, but I thought Moorcock was pretty decent; I did think that the first book in the bunch (I don't even recall the title) was wonderfully dark, and that the rest sort of petered out....

theBigShagboski

21st August 2007, 10:32 AM

Someone mentioned Jack Womack - I've only ever read <i>Random Acts of Senseless Violence,</i> but really enjoyed the subtle SF in the background. It seems his later books get even more bizarre, but I can't find them in bookstores here in Toronto :boggled:

Sidhe

21st August 2007, 06:57 PM

Elizabeth I

21st August 2007, 07:23 PM

Being as old as I am, and having read both genres since the 50s, I've forgotten more than I remember....

Long-standing favorites in no particular order:

...Jack Vance (wonderful prose and creator of worlds, both fantasy and sci-fi)

Neil Gaiman (American Gods, Underworld)

ANYTHING by Jack Vance. His creation of worlds AND words is fantastic.

And Neil Gaiman and Terry Pratchett put out one of my favorites with Good Omens.

I liked the idea presented in the Foundation books, but yeah, they lacked a whole lot in characterizarion I think.

Can you imagine writing that whole long trilogy just to justify a shaggy-dog joke pun ending? (First Speaker/Preem Palver)

Jasper Fforde.

That deserves a genre all to itself, quite possibly the most barking set of books that I have enjoyed reading. Inspiredly insane. I would put Robert Rankin up there too, but Fforde is even more Thursday Next.

Have you read either of his "Nursery Crime" books? Inspired insanity is right.

Different strokes....

My wife loves Harry Potter, and devoured the last book in three nights straight. I read the first one and said "cute, but...." Didn't grab me.

I see a reference above to the "Shannarra" series. I picked up a copy of the very first book years ago, read the synopsis, and thought I was reading a synopsis of Tolkien.... I dunno, maybe the books are fine.

I love the Harry Potter books. Of COURSE they're "derivative" - there are only, what? about six basic plots in the whole world. They're still fun.

Re: Shannara - I have read exactly ONE book from that series, and the only reason I was able to finish it is that I entertained myself by counting Tolkien ripoffs.

Spot on definition by instantiation:

Fantasy: ... you simply saddle up your unicorn, whisper in its ear, and give it a crack on the fanny. :)

Not unless you're a female virgin. ;)

Two people have mentioned Jack Vance. I tried reading Dead Earth and enjoyed some of it, but when I tried to read the stuff with Cudgel, I just couldn't get over what a completely horrible person he is. I mean, nobody wants a saint, but most protagonists have some sort of redeeming features.

[The character's name is Cugel, BTW.] You need to keep reading to see Cugel get his comeuppance. And all the world-creation is just fantastic.

No one has mentioned my all-time favorites:

The Witches of Karres by James Schmitz - just a really fun read

The Last Coin and All the Bells on Earth by James Blaylock.

Those last two sort of defy classification, but I think I'd have to put them in the fantasy genre.

JAR

2nd September 2007, 12:48 PM

"The Sleeper Awakes" by H.G. Wells
"Men Like Gods" by H.G. Wells
"The Lost World" by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

HawaiiBigSis

3rd September 2007, 05:16 PM

Does anyone know of titles that are sort of sci fi (or fantasy) crossed with mystery? I love Jim Butcher's Harry Dresden series, and I'm looking for some more along those lines.
I can't remember the name the author uses to publish them (I'm pretty sure it's Nora Roberts under a pseudonym); it's basically a police procedural -- a series set in the future with some sci-fi elements. I only read one, and it wasn't enough to make me go out and acquire them all, but it wasn't horrible either...

And I can't believe nobody's mentioned Alan Dean Foster! Yeah, some of his stuff is fluffy, but it's nearly always fun, in a Robert Aspirin sort of way.

Lots of ideas here: like my reading list isn't long enough; like if I buy another book my bookshelves won't explode!

Jaxe

3rd September 2007, 05:25 PM

Not necessarily in that order as it all depends on the flavor of the month :P

William Gibson
Iain M Banks
Terry Pratchet
Douglas Adams
Robert A. Heinlein
R.A. Salvatore

zooterkin

6th September 2007, 03:26 PM

Lots of stuff I like has already been mentioned; Terry Pratchett, Neil Gaiman (and especially the joint effort, Good Omens), Iain (M) Banks, Michael Moorcock, Guy Gavriel Kay, Clarke and Asimov...

One name I've not seen mentioned is Mary Gentle. I saw Grunts recommended some time back, but for me the tone was not quite right. However, I found her alternate histories, such as Ash and 1610: A Sundial in a Grave very enjoyable.

I read the two Thomas Covenant trilogies, and vowed never to read another book by Stephen R. Donaldson after such a miserable experience.

lionking

6th September 2007, 04:42 PM

Jaxe

19th September 2007, 01:29 PM

So many great memories, but most books mentioned most are quite dated now. I haven't read a really good sci fi in the past 10 years, apart from Pattern Recognition by Gibson. Tried to plough through Alistair Reynolds without success. Going through the sci fi section of bookshops now all I see are space operas and fantasy. Can anyone recommend a really good, recent book with at least some science woven through it?

Probably not the kind of book(s) you're expecting ;) But i'd REALLY recommend The Science of Discworld and The Science of Discworld II - The Globe by Terry Pratchet, Ian Stewart and Jack Cohen. Very refreshing and incredibly funny ;) It's the kind of book that should be obligatory in the school curriculum and the students would like it ;) (maybe, i seem to recall a principal dislike of anything that was obligatory while i was a student)

jimbob

19th September 2007, 02:37 PM

AgeGap

19th September 2007, 03:44 PM

Fritz Lieber The Swords of...books
L. Sprague de Camp I loved The clocks of Iraz and The Goblin Tower
E.R.R. Eddison The Worm Ouroborous (http://www.sacred-texts.com/ring/two/index.htm) (That's where I stole my avatar from, )
Robert E. Howard I have read the original Conan stories. Much better than I could ever imagine.
Michael Moorcock Of Wizardry & Wild Romance (This is a critique of fantasy). Also I think it was Count Brass where Hawkmoon goes back in time to save the life of his wife's father. No book has shocked me more.

All the above are ten out of ten IMHO.

Hokulele

19th September 2007, 04:29 PM

Although most of my personal favorites are already listed, I haven't seen these names crop up yet.

Steven Brust - Start with Jhereg. That is not a series to jump in the middle of.
RA MacAvoy - Probably out of print by now.
Robert E. Howard - What? No Conan? No Red Sonja?

And I can't believe that since the OP specifically talked about religious SF writers, no one has mentioned CS Lewis' SF (Out of the Silent Planet, Perelandra, and That Hideous Strength).

Formerly

19th September 2007, 04:45 PM

Elizabeth A Lynn is one of my favorite authors - she's mostly fantasy (she won the World Fantasy Award in '79 for Watchtower) but I find her sci-fi writings interesting (especially Sardonyx Net).

Ancestor

25th September 2007, 12:53 AM

Don't know Gene Wolf... Are you asking for "christian" SF or fantasy books or what ? That would be hard to come by...

Greetings

Please excuse the distant quote; I have only just arrived.

Try Googling Primal Ancestor.

quixotecoyote

25th September 2007, 01:01 AM

I haven't seen anyone mention anything by George Martin yet.

I can heartily recommend Tuf Voyaging as an excellent read. A classically cool main character and a well paced story about power through an environmentalist lens. The title kind of kills the suspense in the first chapter though.

3point14

25th September 2007, 03:02 AM

Having just skimmed the thread, most of these have probably been mentioned...

Pratchett - can't say enough. Waiting for my father to finish Making Money so I can steal it.

Clarke - Rama particularly. The first one is ace, the rest are worth persevering with.

Asimov - I just love his short stories, there's always something clever in them, and it's fun to try and second-guess what it's going to be.

I make no apologies for my Gemmell fixation. The earlier works (particularly Legend and Waylander) I really enjoy.

When I was in my early teens, I spent a half term reading the Narnia Chronicles. I don't think I noticed the religious bit; I just really enjoyed the books.

Orson Scott Card's 'Worthing Saga' I found to be un-put-downable, as was 'Player of Games' by Iain M Banks.

I'd like to mention a book called 'The Walrus and the Warwolf' by Hugh Cook. An absolute gem in the middle of a (very) mediocre series. (If you like that sort of thing)

A word about Harry Potter...

The next time you see someone reading a Harry Potter book, ask them if it's any good. Then, if (when) they say yes, ask them if it's better or worse than the last book they read that wasn't by Rowling.

Morrigan

25th September 2007, 10:31 AM

I haven't seen anyone mention anything by George Martin yet.

Errmm... get some glasses (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2784604#post2784604). :D

I have yet to read Tuf Voyaging, though. But I read some of his non-ASoIaF stuff, and it's very good: Windhaven, Dying of the Light (kind of left me wanting for more, though), and Fevre Dream (seriously badass vampire story).

ZirconBlue

25th September 2007, 02:23 PM

Errmm... get some glasses (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2784604#post2784604). :D

I have yet to read Tuf Voyaging, though. But I read some of his non-ASoIaF stuff, and it's very good: Windhaven, Dying of the Light (kind of left me wanting for more, though), and Fevre Dream (seriously badass vampire story).

Armageddon Rag is also pretty good, although I think I would have enjoyed it more had I been alive during the '60s.

quixotecoyote

25th September 2007, 03:21 PM

Errmm... get some glasses (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2784604#post2784604). :D

I have yet to read Tuf Voyaging, though. But I read some of his non-ASoIaF stuff, and it's very good: Windhaven, Dying of the Light (kind of left me wanting for more, though), and Fevre Dream (seriously badass vampire story).

What? You expect me to read a post directly after my own?

Do you know who I AM? :boggled:

Foolmewunz

26th September 2007, 07:24 AM

Greetings

Please excuse the distant quote; I have only just arrived.

Try Googling Primal Ancestor.

If you're Dan Sterling Smith, please identify yourself accordingly. Tate is a Christian vanity press.

If you're hawking your work or your friend's work here, please do us all a favor and cut it out.

jimbob

26th September 2007, 02:17 PM

I would recommend The Winter Of The World Trilogy by Michael Scott Rohan, which could be described as 'Tolkienesque', but much better IMO. The story is less long winded, and the characters and situations are more believeable, without any sacrificing of descriptive text or plot details.
I also like Robin Hobb.

I like Michael Scott Rohan, although I seem to recall his pure SF "Run to the Stars" seemed very similar to another earlier author's book (by Poul Anderson?)

Iain M. Banks - “Excession”

One of my all time favorite books. I don't know why but i always liked SF with exciting Spaceships in them. (I guess because you need them too explore space). And if they have Minds. Wow! ;)
The Culture. Well... I hope mankind get there someday.

M. John Harrison - "Light". Has also a very good Spaceship story in it. (the K-Ships)
Never have guessed from your id... (thinks...) I wonder why you didn't choose the "Grey Area's" nickname for your id.

Stonehenge by Bernard Cornwell
PRO: Refreshing shift of setting to 2000BC. Recreation of the sort of society that might have built Stonehenge was very authentic.
CON: Has been a while since I read it.

Harry Harrison did an interesting one on Stonehenge (in a collaboration IIRC).

Has anyone mentioned Poul Anderson or Harry Harrison?

Poul anderson's "The High Crusade" wins a prize for the deliberately most barking alian invasion series.

Their ray guns are no match for fine Six Feet of English Yew and cloth shafts... Trebuchets throwing atomic shells?

Incidentally, the WWII/Alien Invasion thing is Harry Turtledove’s ‘WorldWar’ series. A fun idea, badly written, and as such it provides a perfect example of what I’ve always thought was the problem with ‘Hard’ SF in the informal sense. I don’t think a book can survive on cool technology and ideas alone – there has to be solid characterisation, literary flair, all the things that you would expect from any novelist in any other genre and which certain SF authors (fewer now than in the so-called ‘Golden Age’) seem to repudiate as a matter of honour.

The history part was somewhat poor too, in fact I think The High crusade was more plausible than that. I do not know much about WWII, but enough to spot some significant errors...

maledoro

26th September 2007, 02:26 PM

My favorite book is Gargantua and Pantagruel by François Rabelais. A very funny, satirical and imaginative book!

Wudang

28th September 2007, 09:16 AM

For fantasy detective try http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_Darcy_(fiction). Too Many Magicians is a good yarn.

Gregory

28th September 2007, 11:06 AM

I've been meaning to look at that; some sort of locked room/impossible crime story, right? My favorite mystery subgenre.

Wudang

30th September 2007, 01:57 PM

Yep, and a locked-room mystery with a magician as chief suspect yet handled well. He does the internal consistency/suspension of disbelief bit well.

balrog666

30th September 2007, 02:14 PM

Errmm... get some glasses (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2784604#post2784604). :D

I have yet to read Tuf Voyaging, though. But I read some of his non-ASoIaF stuff, and it's very good: Windhaven, Dying of the Light (kind of left me wanting for more, though), and Fevre Dream (seriously badass vampire story).

Tuf Voyaging is one of his best. Get it!

In fact, he used to sell autographed copies on ebay.

fagin

2nd October 2007, 04:57 AM

Mary Shelley - the original and still a good read.

fagin

2nd October 2007, 05:03 AM

Clifford Simak and AE Van Vogt if they haven't already been mentioned.
And Larry Niven for the short story Limits. Together with Starman Jones (Heinlein), my first adult SF book, LOTR and the Narnia series ( my first real fantasy) it holds a special place.
Whenever I am not sure if I can do something, I remember Limits and try to do it anyway.

graphicsguy

2nd October 2007, 09:04 PM

Weis & Hickman's "Death Gate" novels are still my all-time favorites.

Weis writes well on her own too. "Star of the Guardians" was pretty amazing.

I am completely in awe of Karen Traviss now. Her Star Wars books certainly are well out of the "mind-candy" range. Of course, that hasn't stopped me from buying every Star Wars novel there is...

Terry Goodkind, Robert Jordan, Harry Turtledove, Dean Koontz...the list goes on and on and on...

Gregory

2nd October 2007, 10:25 PM

Weis & Hickman's "Death Gate" novels are still my all-time favorites.

Rereading the Death Gate books, they have pretty major flaws, IMO, but I'll always through them through the happy filter of childhood memories.

Have you read the Rose of the Prophet books?

Terry Goodkind is awful.

graphicsguy

2nd October 2007, 11:28 PM

Rereading the Death Gate books, they have pretty major flaws,

Flaws???

Have you read the Rose of the Prophet books?

Read the first one - just barely finished it. For some reason it didn't strike my fancy at all.

Terry Goodkind is awful.

I will admit that his series is WAY too long and he does have a tendancy to over-explain every little nuance, but he is a pretty phenomenal writer. It takes a lot to get that indepth with characters and a world.

Gregory

3rd October 2007, 12:25 AM

Well, among other things, they can't keep their world view straight; they claim at one point in the series that the various worlds are located in the same area in space, but in different dimensions (or something like that), but later on talk about traveling between them via ship. Haplo is supposed to have fought numerous dragons according to the first book, but according to later ones, Xar is the only Patryn to ever have survived such a fight. The magic system is never very coherent--it's supposed to work based on forcing unlikely events to happen (probability), but when the authors need something impossible, like Alfred flying or Haply causing the dog to grow, or when Haplo and Samah are dueling on the beach with magical chains appearing out of thin air and the like, that probability aspect gets swept under the rug. Also, in my opinion, it's never convincingly explained how the Sartan--who have to do the song and dance thing when they want to use magic--could viably threaten the Patryn, who have their magic tatooed on their skin; when Alfred imprisons Xar in Haplo's prison, it can only happen because Xar, allegedly some sort of brilliant, super-powered wizard, stands around like a nitwit wondering what Alfred's planning instead of putting a stop to it.

More seriously, Haplo and Alfred's strategy at the end didn't really make any sense. They wanted to trap the Patryn and Sartan in the Labyrinth, so they decided to destroy ... the Seventh Gate? It's only when the Seventh Gate is collapsing and everything's being destroyed that it occurs to them to close destroy Death's Gate, which, since they want to keep people from traveling between the worlds and Deaths Gate is the gate that they use to do that, is pretty strange.

There are other issues as well; the Pryan subplot was never really integrated into the rest of the story in any meaningful way, even if Xar did stop over there for a while. Resurrecting Haplo detracted from the end of the first book, IMO, and again, it's not integrated very well into the whole. He travels with Haplo and Alfred, sure, but he doesn't seem to really serve any purpose other than to let Xar take his form at the end. Having essentially the same story play out on both Arianus and Pryan--hostile, conflicting racial groups who learn to get along by the end of the book--makes things rather heavy-handed in that regard.

Flaws.

Morrigan

5th October 2007, 11:11 AM

I will admit that his series is WAY too long and he does have a tendancy to over-explain every little nuance, but he is a pretty phenomenal writer. It takes a lot to get that indepth with characters and a world.

:eek: You've gotta be kidding. Terry Goodkind is a talentless hack who writes with the subtlety of a sledgehammer. His novels are nothing more than a propaganda tool for his preaching of Randism/objectivism. The latter ones have little more than outright preaching, and he recycles his plots constantly, and his world-building is not only pathetically weak (he makes up the magic as he goes along to use them as plot devices, he admitted that himself) but the few cool things it does have is stolen from Robert Jordan and other writers (that he denies having read Wheel of Time also makes him a blatant liar). He hates world-building, he said so himself. I could respect that if he just focused on having a solid plot and interesting symbolism, but he fails at those even more than he fails at world-building. The "chicken that is not a chicken but Evil Incarnate"? An army of inexperienced naked youths fighting a trained army in the winter snow and *winning*? A brutal dictator who preaches about... individual rights? A mysterious, impressive magic barrier where nothing beyond it is known... even though it was raised less than 30 years ago? Rape by demons with barbed cocks? A wood's guide who knows advanced algebra, how to fight with a sword so well he can kill 30 trained men who attack him at once, repair thatched roofs, sculpt marble statues better than Michelangelo, learn the contents of an entire book by heart, lead powerful armies... the list goes on. Oh yes, he's phenomenal all right. Phenomenally bad. :newlol

And then there's the fact that he's a pompous jackass that makes him quite despicable. "If you hate my books, you hate life." and "I don't write fantasy, I write about important human themes". No, sir, you don't write high art, you write half-assed political essays rife with fallacies, strawmen (the caricaturing of the opposing views is again thoroughly unsubtle) and repugnant morals thinly disguised as fiction. Bad fiction, at that.

This post from another forum sums it up quite nicely (there are a few factual mistakes, such as Richard's brother being named Michael, but they are unimportant to the point):
http://www.chronicles-network.com/forum/11185-terry-goodkind-wizard-rules-5.html#post917436

joobz

5th October 2007, 03:53 PM

:eek: You've gotta be kidding. Terry Goodkind is a talentless hack who writes with the subtlety of a sledgehammer. His novels are nothing more than a propaganda tool for his preaching of Randism/objectivism. The latter ones have little more than outright preaching, and he recycles his plots constantly, and his world-building is not only pathetically weak (he makes up the magic as he goes along to use them as plot devices, he admitted that himself) but the few cool things it does have is stolen from Robert Jordan and other writers (that he denies having read Wheel of Time also makes him a blatant liar). He hates world-building, he said so himself. I could respect that if he just focused on having a solid plot and interesting symbolism, but he fails at those even more than he fails at world-building. The "chicken that is not a chicken but Evil Incarnate"? An army of inexperienced naked youths fighting a trained army in the winter snow and *winning*? A brutal dictator who preaches about... individual rights? A mysterious, impressive magic barrier where nothing beyond it is known... even though it was raised less than 30 years ago? Rape by demons with barbed cocks? A wood's guide who knows advanced algebra, how to fight with a sword so well he can kill 30 trained men who attack him at once, repair thatched roofs, sculpt marble statues better than Michelangelo, learn the contents of an entire book by heart, lead powerful armies... the list goes on. Oh yes, he's phenomenal all right. Phenomenally bad. :newlol

And then there's the fact that he's a pompous jackass that makes him quite despicable. "If you hate my books, you hate life." and "I don't write fantasy, I write about important human themes". No, sir, you don't write high art, you write half-assed political essays rife with fallacies, strawmen (the caricaturing of the opposing views is again thoroughly unsubtle) and repugnant morals thinly disguised as fiction. Bad fiction, at that.

This post from another forum sums it up quite nicely (there are a few factual mistakes, such as Richard's brother being named Michael, but they are unimportant to the point):
http://www.chronicles-network.com/forum/11185-terry-goodkind-wizard-rules-5.html#post917436
:clap:
It's like you reached into my soul and said everything I felt toward's goodkind.

I would have simply said, He sucks. Your's is better.

ZirconBlue

5th October 2007, 04:15 PM

:eek: You've gotta be kidding. Terry Goodkind is a talentless hack who writes with the subtlety of a sledgehammer. His novels are nothing more than a propaganda tool for his preaching of Randism/objectivism. The latter ones have little more than outright preaching, and he recycles his plots constantly, and his world-building is not only pathetically weak (he makes up the magic as he goes along to use them as plot devices, he admitted that himself) but the few cool things it does have is stolen from Robert Jordan and other writers (that he denies having read Wheel of Time also makes him a blatant liar). He hates world-building, he said so himself. I could respect that if he just focused on having a solid plot and interesting symbolism, but he fails at those even more than he fails at world-building. The "chicken that is not a chicken but Evil Incarnate"? An army of inexperienced naked youths fighting a trained army in the winter snow and *winning*? A brutal dictator who preaches about... individual rights? A mysterious, impressive magic barrier where nothing beyond it is known... even though it was raised less than 30 years ago? Rape by demons with barbed cocks? A wood's guide who knows advanced algebra, how to fight with a sword so well he can kill 30 trained men who attack him at once, repair thatched roofs, sculpt marble statues better than Michelangelo, learn the contents of an entire book by heart, lead powerful armies... the list goes on. Oh yes, he's phenomenal all right. Phenomenally bad. :newlol

And then there's the fact that he's a pompous jackass that makes him quite despicable. "If you hate my books, you hate life." and "I don't write fantasy, I write about important human themes". No, sir, you don't write high art, you write half-assed political essays rife with fallacies, strawmen (the caricaturing of the opposing views is again thoroughly unsubtle) and repugnant morals thinly disguised as fiction. Bad fiction, at that.

I'm curious why you would continue reading them if they are that bad. If I had such a negative reaction to a series, I probably wouldn't have finished the first book, let alone continue reading further installments.

For my part, I think your criticisms are all valid (except that I haven't read any Jordan, so I don't know if the charge of plagiarizing him is valid). But, despite that, I still find the series an enjoyable read. There were a few books that got entirely too preachy for me, but he seems to have gotten them back on track with the last two. I don't know. You seem to either love or absolutely despise everything. Is there anything you like (or dislike) just a little bit.

Morrigan

5th October 2007, 07:15 PM

joobz - *bows* :D

Actually, I stopped reading at Naked Empire.

Initially, a long time ago, I liked Sword of Truth. I was around 17 or so. Many of the glaring flaws I now see, didn't at the time. And, in truth, the earlier books are not quite as bad. There are some interesting plot twists, some cool scenes at times. Despite the preachiness I had even liked Faith of the Fallen. But Pillars of Creation was just plain awful, and I checked Naked Empire hoping that the return of Kahlan and Richard would make things better. They didn't, they made things -worse-. Gone was the humble woods guide and seeker of truth, Richard had apparently found the truth and was content being a smug arrogant ******* who destroyed everyone who disagreed with him. Kahlan, formerly a strong, resourceful and somewhat intelligent woman (at times), was now reduced to being a simpleton who agreed with just about everything her husband said, and who was simply "stupidly wrong" whenever she did not. I then realized that not only did those last two books really sucked, but come to think of it, the others were pretty retarded most of the time, too. I was just a teenager whose experience with fantasy was limited to cookie-cutter fluff about elves and wizards, so seeing scenes of rape and torture probably impressed my young mind - wow, there's fantasy for adults, too! :rolleyes: Of course, it's nothing deeper than what you'd find in a slasher flick, and I thankfully realised that quickly enough...

...And then I saw the interviews... any shred of respect I had for the author (which had become appalingly thin) vanished in smoke. I refuse to "feed the Yeard" anymore, like the anti-Goodkind say, and I don't give a rat's ass how it ends (unlike Wheel of Time, which started to suck but I still kept at it because I was too far ahead). I checked synopsises (sp?) and it seems to be more of the same, so he can piss off. :D

ZirconBlue

6th October 2007, 07:46 AM

joobz -
...And then I saw the interviews... any shred of respect I had for the author (which had become appalingly thin) vanished in smoke.

Oh, he's a complete asshat, no doubt. For one of the recent books, he had a release sent out that instead of doing a sighning tour, he was just going to send out a bunch of autographed copies of the latest book to bookstores. That way it would be "easier" for fans to get an autograph. Personally, I think he just didn't want to have to answer awkward questions from his fans.

blobru

6th October 2007, 08:35 AM

...
Fantasy: ... you simply saddle up your unicorn, whisper in its ear, and give it a crack on the fanny. :)Not unless you're a female virgin. ;)

Well, I half-qualify. :shy:
Can I ride side-saddle?!

{how's that for delayed reaction -- August 21!} :p

jimbob

6th October 2007, 01:12 PM

Originally Posted by blobru
...
Fantasy: ... you simply saddle up your unicorn, whisper in its ear, and give it a crack on the fanny.

Being British, that image raises a puerile chuckle.

blobru

6th October 2007, 03:00 PM

Being British, that image raises a puerile chuckle.

As a Canadian, I think I'm "British" enough to get that (though I hadn't thought of it until you mentioned it).
Hmm... I guess this makes me a fantasy 'artist'; and if that's my idea of artistic, I shudder to think what I've done with the unicorn's horn. :unicorn: :boxedin:

CrikeyBobs

6th October 2007, 03:56 PM

Just read most of this thread. Great reminders of many wonderful books that I have on my shelves but have not read for many a year. I especially like multi-book stories: foundation, dune, thomas covenant, rama etc.

One author not mentioned so far (I don't think) is Patrick Tilley. I am currently on my 3rd or 4th time through his The Amtrak Wars series. Initially the title put me off buying them, because I thought it was about trains :D. Fade-out is also excellent.

Hindmost

6th October 2007, 04:28 PM

If you're going to read the foundation series, stop with the first three. It's a lot better that way. The other two are tack-ons.

You have to read them along with the robot novels..in the order that Asimov wrote them...it really puts the universe together.

glenn

Hindmost

6th October 2007, 04:37 PM

skimmed the thread quickly didn't recall seeing Pohl's Gateway series...A great series.

I have enjoyed Niven's tales of known space and Asimov's foundation and robot novels.

A great read is Heinlein's "Job: A comedy of Justice" and "The Cat who Walks through walls."

Clarke's Rama novels seem to reflect current events in a strange manner...

glenn

did anyone mention "Hitchhiker's" hilarious stuff

Lensman

7th October 2007, 10:55 AM

Piers Anthonys original Phaze Trilogy was good, I also liked the Xanth books & The Incarnations of Immortality were quite good too.

As for the Harry Potter books, yes they did start out as being somewhat "childish" (ie. written for children), but as the hero got older - so did the books, that's not to say that the final book was totally "adult", but it was "late teen".

LOTR & The Hobbit were excellent, as were The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant but that was a very much darker story.

Nivens books are generally very good - except for the newer sequels, eg., The Heorot sequel, The Ringworld Throne & the Mote in Gods Eye sequel etc. I especially liked his collaboration with Pournelle in Footfall.

Eddings Belgariad I thought was quite good, but the Malloreon, Elenium & Tamuli series weren't nearly as good & the less said about The Elder Gods series, the better.

Bob Asprins Myth Inc series was very good, as was Craig Shaw Gardners Ebenezum & Wuntvor stories.

Discworld books are truly excellent.

Has anybody read Harrisons Stainless Steel Rat books?

Asimov, Clarke, Heinlein, Smith (both E.E "Doc" & George O.)

Niven, Pournelle, Anderson & van Vogt are all very good authors & I normally enjoy their books immensely.

Has anyone read anything by James P. Hogan? They can get a bit bogged down in the science, but are quite good apart from that.

Wudang

13th October 2007, 07:50 AM

I'm a big fan of Slippery Jim and there is (was?) a poster here called the Stainless Steel Rat. But his best were "Bill the Galactic Hero" and "Starsmashers of the Galaxy Rangers".

Has anyone mentioned Vernor Vinge?

PixyMisa

19th October 2007, 07:30 AM

What do you think of Gene Wolf, who's sort of a Christian?
I've read most of Wolfe's work, and I never would have placed him as a Christian... or as an atheist, or anything else. It just didn't occur to me.

He's one of the best writers in SF/Fantasy today, and I'd recommend The Book of the New Sun to anyone who's read the usual stuff and is looking for something a little different and a lot deeper.

And I agree with everything bad that's been said about Terry Goodkind. Truly awful writer; I only read Wizard's First Rule, and that with a kind of gnawing horror, unable to believe that each new page would be worse than the last...

As to favourites, well, I've read perhaps 2000 SF & fantasy books over the last mumble years, so I'm bound to miss some, but here goes:

Lois McMaster Bujold - My all time favourite is The Curse of Chalion, which has the best-constructed theology I've ever seen, but anything she's written except for Falling Free.

Connie Willis - Doomsday Book might be her best, but it's a tough read, so I'd recommend Bellwether, To Say Nothing of the Dog, or Passage instead.

Janet Kagan - Mirabile. A collection of short stories about genetic engineering that doesn't work out quite as planned.

C. J. Cherry - I doubt that anyone will like all of Cherryh's work, but there's plenty to choose from. The Morgaine books, Cyteen, the Fortress series, and the first Foreigner trilogy are all good places to start.

Wilhelmina Baird - Crashcourse, Clipjoint, Psykosis.

Pat Cadigan - Synners, Fools. I didn't like Synners when I first started to read it, and stopped after a few pages. I picked it up again years later, and it blew me away.

Iain M Banks - Anything except The Algebraist, which was disappointing. Also, as Iain Banks, The Bridge.

Jim Butcher - You can take Harry Dresden as either horror or urban fantasy. Either way, it's a rocking good series.

Alastair Reynolds - Consistently churning out good stuff.

Glen Cook - Both The Black Company and the Garrett, P.I. books. I've read some of the Dread Empire series and found it inferior to his later work.

David Brin - The Uplift series and The Practice Effect.

Greg Bear - Eon, The Infinity Concerto, Slant.

Robert Sheckley - None of his novels stand out particularly, but if you can find any collection of his short stories, grab it!

Terry Pratchett - Though I dislike the main character of two of the recent books, still a wonderful writer. My favourite remains Strata - not his best work, just the one I like the most.

Robert Silverberg - Lord Valentine's Castle, and, up to a point, the other Majipoor books.

Larry Niven with or without Jerry Pournelle - Any of the Known Space books except for the later Ringworld sequels; Footfall; The Mote in God's Eye.

Isaac Asimov - The Caves of Steel, The Naked Sun. Science fiction detective stories with robots.

Robert Heinlein - The Door into Summer; Have Spacesuit, Will Travel; The Moon is a Harsh Mistress; Glory Road. Not Podkayne of Mars, though, not after they ruined it.

Arthur C Clarke - The City and the Stars, Rendezvous with Rama, The Fountains of Paradise.

Sephen Brust - Pretty much anything, but best to start with the Vlad Taltos books in publication order.

Charlie Stross - Anything except Accelerando.

F. Paul Wilson - The entire Repairman Jack saga, but the early books are, if not better written, perhaps fresher.

Wil McCarthy - The Collapsium, a wonderful super-science romp.

Tim Powers - The Stress of Her Regard, The Anubis Gates, Declare. Secret histories, time travel, and sundry other weirdness, carried off with inimitable panache.

Douglas Adams - Everything he wrote, which is sadly too little.

Vernor Vinge - A Fire Upon the Deep, A Deepness in the Sky.

John Varley - Titan, Wizard, Demon, Steel Beach, The Golden Globe. But most definitely not Red Thunder.