Has anyone ever gotten off drugs through the power of atheism? [Archive]

Miss Anthrope

19th July 2007, 09:58 AM

Ahhh, it's Doc. *sigh*

Do we all need to tell you again that Atheism is a lack of belief? It doesn't work like that.

Just like those who say "Stalin was an atheist", the point is, no one has started a war or mass murdered in the name of their "atheism".

Thus, no one is going to say "Atheism" got them off drugs. While it makes sense that a religious person would credit god, it's very odd you would expect someone to say "I conquered my drug habit because I don't believe in god!!"

Many rehab hospitals do not invoke a higher power. They use medical science and behavioral science to help people become sober. I've never been a drug addict, but I did give up a decade long smoking habit cold turkey by the power of my own will. I would never credit "atheism" for losing the addiction. I credit my own strength.

Religion does become an addiction of it's own. The good way to break a bad habit is to replace it with another one. A person who believes they have been healed will become fanatical about their religion. They will also change their environment, another key to this. If they are surrounded by church folk rather than their drug buddies, there are fewer opportunities for failure. It's not god, it's the shift in thinking and behavior. This certainly can happen in a non-religious environment.

Dark Jaguar

19th July 2007, 10:01 AM

Atheism has no power, or virtues either. It's just a lack of belief in god. I would wince at someone saying only the strength of their lack of belief allowed them to perservere. That's silly.

And it's also silly to say that a faith in god has anything to do with someone quitting, as plenty of people have not been able to go sober that are also religious. Whether an atheist or religious, it's other things that lead them to stop.

On that note, Phil, some atheists are quitters. Some of them never give up. Atheism doesn't really give someone any sort of strength, though it might take strength to become an atheist.

calebprime

19th July 2007, 10:07 AM

I quit smoking weed. I'm an atheist. It was mostly through the power of penury, wife-naggery, this-forum-ism, wanting-to-get-more-done-ism.

And yes, my atheism is life-affirming. It's a kind of freedom. It's related to the idea that I'm in charge of my own little show, and can do what I want, and make changes for the better.

So, yes. Anyone has.

anyone lived in a pretty how town
(with up so floating many bells down)
spring summer autumn winter
he sang his didn't he danced his did

Women and men(both little and small)
cared for anyone not at all
they sowed their isn't they reaped their same
sun moon stars rain

children guessed(but only a few
and down they forgot as up they grew
autumn winter spring summer)
that noone loved him more by more

when by now and tree by leaf
she laughed his joy she cried his grief
bird by snow and stir by still
anyone's any was all to her...

JoeEllison

19th July 2007, 10:11 AM

What's the power of atheism, exactly? I'm hoping it's a death ray....FROM MY EYES!!

MWare

19th July 2007, 10:30 AM

Does one's religion impact their drug use (or their getting started using drugs)?

Background: some studies suggest that religious variables are associated with substance use and abuse however, they tend to be compartmentalized into alcohol, tobacco, or illicit drugs. Few have examined both licit and illicit drugs. The purpose of this study was to investigate the patterns of licit and illicit recreational drug use among postsecondary students in terms of religious background and religiosity. Method: the Queensland Alcohol and Drug Study Questionnaire was completed by students attending courses in "helping profession" departments such as medicine, nursing, education, and psychology from 22 departments at universities and colleges in five Scottish cities. The sample consisted of 3117 females and 949 males.
Results: among female students a higher percent (p <.05) who were Not Religious consumed over 14 drinks per week (55.5 vs 36.2%), tobacco (43.3 vs 29.3%), marijuana (32.4 vs 15. 1 %), amphetamines (8.4 vs 4. 1 %), LSD (7.4 vs 2.9%), and Ecstasy (4.8 vs 2. 1 %) compared to those who were Very Religious. A higher percent of Roman Catholic's consumed alcoholic beverages while a higher percent of Protestants, other than Church of Scotland, consumed tobacco. For all other substances those with "other" or no religious background had a higher proportion of users. There was a positive association between illicit drug use and both high alcohol consumption and tobacco use. In particular a strong association was found between tobacco and marijuana (r=.45). Among males a higher proportion of students (p <.05) who were Not Religious consumed over 21 drinks per week (61.3 vs 32.4%), tobacco, (47.8 vs 35.2%), marijuana (50.2 vs 28.3%), amphetamines (15.9 vs 8.0%), LSD (17.6 vs 8.4%), and Ecstasy (9.2 vs 5.2%) compared to students who were Very Religious. A higher percentage of male students with "other" or no religious backgrounds used tobacco and a higher proportion of Roman Catholics used marijuana, amphetamines and Ecstasy. Illicit drug consumption was positively correlated with heavy alcohol and tobacco use. Tobacco was strongly correlated with marijuana (r=.48) and LSD (r=.42) use. It was concluded that among this sample of Scottish post-secondary students, having a strong religious commitment was associated with less substance use and that heavy drinking and using tobacco was correlated with illicit drug use. Implications of this study suggest further research to determine why lack of religious commitment, being Roman Catholic or having no religious preference are a risk factors for use of a variety of licit and illicit recreational substances.

http://www.indiana.edu/~engs/articles/religion2.htm

As someone who grew up in an Irish Catholic household, I can certainly say that the religion (at least as far as it figures into the culture) can lead to alcoholism. Would the odds of becoming an alcoholic be less or greater for someone raised in an atheistic household? It's so difficult to strip out all of the other factors (culture, genetics, etc) I'm not sure you'd get a very meaningful answer to this. Am I too far off topic with this?

Marquis de Carabas

19th July 2007, 10:50 AM

...FROM MY EYES!!
Well, I was hoping my eyes, actually, but that'd be pretty cool, too. I guess.

JoeEllison

19th July 2007, 10:51 AM

Well, I was hoping my eyes, actually, but that'd be pretty cool, too. I guess.

All of our eyes?

Marquis de Carabas

19th July 2007, 10:55 AM

All of our eyes?
I was hoping we'd get different powers. What kind of superhero group has all the same stuff?

We are forming a superhero group, right?

Miss Anthrope

19th July 2007, 11:01 AM

I was hoping we'd get different powers. What kind of superhero group has all the same stuff?

We are forming a superhero group, right?

My super power: flexing my pecs, so that my generous bustline rises and falls, thus sending a powerful, destructive shockwave to knock over my opponents.

Can I? Please? Can I?

Foster Zygote

19th July 2007, 11:06 AM

I credit my non-alcoholism to my lack of belief in Bacchus.

Marquis de Carabas

19th July 2007, 11:08 AM

My super power: flexing my pecs, so that my generous bustline rises and falls, thus sending a powerful, destructive shockwave to knock over my opponents.

Can I? Please? Can I?
How focused a shockwave are we talking? We want to limit collateral damage. Except with my death rays.

Oualawouzou

19th July 2007, 11:11 AM

My super power: flexing my pecs, so that my generous bustline rises and falls, thus sending a powerful, destructive shockwave to knock over my opponents.

Can I? Please? Can I?

Boobie Powers. Approved.

Rasmus

19th July 2007, 11:14 AM

I was just thinking -- I've heard countless people say they have gotten off drugs through Christianity but have never heard anyone say atheism has gotten them off drugs?

Not only is it silly to assume there could be some "power of atheism" to get you clean, allow you to walk on water, etc - it also pisses me off that there seems to be a widely held assumption that you would somehow need all the stupid things religion promises, does or offers.

Foster Zygote

19th July 2007, 11:25 AM

Ooh! If I do take to heavy drinking can I be The Drunken Atheist? My superpower can be turning water into wine and then walking on it.

Lisa Simpson

19th July 2007, 11:31 AM

Boobie Powers. Approved.

Can I have laser boobie powers?

ponderingturtle

19th July 2007, 11:33 AM

Well not believing in god has never helped me over an addiction but not careing about baseball did help me get over an addiction to crack.

Katana

19th July 2007, 11:36 AM

Well not believing in god has never helped me over an addiction but not careing about baseball did help me get over an addiction to crack.

Caring about baseball has definitely increased my alcohol intake.

ponderingturtle

19th July 2007, 11:38 AM

Caring about baseball has definitely increased my alcohol intake.

Does it correlate to how your team is doing?

JoeEllison

19th July 2007, 11:40 AM

I was hoping we'd get different powers. What kind of superhero group has all the same stuff?

We are forming a superhero group, right?
Ok, you get the death ray out of your eyes, I get the "not a death ray, but it hurts so bad you wish were dead" beams from my hands.

Katana

19th July 2007, 11:42 AM

Does it correlate to how your team is doing?

I think it more closely correlates with the fact that my team is the Red Sox.

Marquis de Carabas

19th July 2007, 11:43 AM

Ok, you get the death ray out of your eyes, I get the "not a death ray, but it hurts so bad you wish were dead" beams from my hands.
I'm sewing my cape tonight.

kinkymagic

19th July 2007, 11:48 AM

I've not smoked for 19 days and plan not to start smoking again until October thanks to the power of spite.

brodski

19th July 2007, 11:49 AM

I was hoping we'd get different powers. What kind of superhero group has all the same stuff?

We are forming a superhero group, right?

Hero?

Oualawouzou

19th July 2007, 11:49 AM

Can I have laser boobie powers?

I insist on it.

Ryan O'Dine

19th July 2007, 11:57 AM

Okay, which one of you jokers used your death beams, exploding boobies, etc. on DOC? He seems to have been blasted out of this thread.

Can’t you people control your powers, for crying out loud?

(BTW, I want the Crying-Out-Loud power. Tears shoot out of my eyes so noisily that... I don’t know, something spectacular happens. People slip on the wet floor, and their eardrums pop. I don't care, just let me wear spandex.)

Lisa Simpson

19th July 2007, 11:59 AM

Hero?

Yeah, I can't be a hero.

I'm an admin.

Terry

19th July 2007, 12:04 PM

I don't care, just let me wear spandex.

Spandex-wearing power APPROVED! I can link you to some cool sites if you like...

Marquis de Carabas

19th July 2007, 12:06 PM

Hero?
In name only, of course.

Miss Anthrope

19th July 2007, 12:08 PM

How focused a shockwave are we talking? We want to limit collateral damage. Except with my death rays.

I will be able to focus and hone in on my target through the use of a cone shaped bra.

Miss Anthrope

19th July 2007, 12:10 PM

Boobie Powers. Approved.

YESSSSSS!

The Cupped Avenger shall rid the world of evildoers!

(My superhero's mild mannered cover personality shall be named Dee Dee)

Ryan O'Dine

19th July 2007, 12:24 PM

Spandex-wearing power APPROVED! I can link you to some cool sites if you like...

Only if I can wear them and they feel spandexy.

Senex

19th July 2007, 12:40 PM

I can get anyone off of drugs through the power of atheism.

First, sit in your chair in front of your computer nude (not necessary, but it helps me focus ;)

Second, read the following sentences over and over until you agree to stop using drugs. If you continue using drugs you didn't read the lines over and over enough.

The power of the abyss compels you
The power of the abyss compels you
The power of the abyss compels you
The power of the abyss compels you
The power of the abyss compels you
The power of the abyss compels you
The power of the abyss compels you
The power of the abyss compels you
The power of the abyss compels you

Darat

19th July 2007, 12:49 PM

The power of atheism?

I worked at a mental hospital that was known nationwide for its drug recovery program. It did not have a religious component to it. Was it an atheist program? No, just a very good drug recovery program, that did not make people say they believed in anything in particular to participate.

If it didn't think it was a religious program it must have been an atheist program....

:duck:

Hokulele

19th July 2007, 01:25 PM

JoeEllison

19th July 2007, 01:31 PM

I'm going to need a second power: an ability to not stare at all the super-boobies at the team meetings.

Speaking of which, do we have a name yet?

slingblade

19th July 2007, 01:45 PM

I knew a Christian who was alcoholic and crack addicted, and who enjoyed abusing his wife. I knew several Christian child-molesters, too.

Have I mentioned that in those cases, I was the wife, and the child?

Isn't that great, DOC? How so many men could be so cruel, and yet still thump their Bibles and praise Jeebus on Sunday?

Oh, and then there were the Royal Rangers. I bet you've heard of them, DOC. Christian Boy Scouts. Yeah. The leader molested one of my kids on a camp-out.

kbm99

19th July 2007, 01:46 PM

Caring about baseball has definitely increased my alcohol intake.

Are you a Cubs fan by any chance?

No, wait, Red Sox, right?

kbm99

19th July 2007, 01:52 PM

I'm going to need a second power: an ability to not stare at all the super-boobies at the team meetings.

I just lurk here and post only rarely, so I don't think I'll be invited to join the team, but I promise you this much - I will watch the cartoon. Avidly.

Hoo-boy.

Marquis de Carabas

19th July 2007, 01:56 PM

I just lurk here and post only rarely, so I don't think I'll be invited to join the team, but I promise you this much - I will watch the cartoon. Avidly.

Hoo-boy.
As long as you are a True Atheist, you can join.

Speaking of which, somebody needs to pick up the power to spot other True Atheists and point them out to me so I don't death ray them in my lust for carnage.

Loss Leader

19th July 2007, 01:58 PM

Terry

19th July 2007, 02:00 PM

I demand the power of riding fast up hill on my bicycle!

(wearing spandex)

Cleon

19th July 2007, 02:10 PM

Taking the OP seriously for a second

*blows whistle*

Hey! You! Stop that!

skeptifem

19th July 2007, 02:11 PM

one thing i do hate about the 'jesus got me off drugs' crowd is that they always credit god with quitting, like individuals have nothing to do with their own lives. its crap.

Katana

19th July 2007, 02:15 PM

Are you a Cubs fan by any chance?

No, wait, Red Sox, right?

Well, if it wasn't one then it was going to be the other, right?

;)

Darat

19th July 2007, 02:17 PM

one thing i do hate about the 'jesus got me off drugs' crowd is that they always credit god with quitting, like individuals have nothing to do with their own lives. its crap.

Should ask them why Jesus got them hooked on drugs in the first place - can't he make his bloody mind up?

Miss Anthrope

19th July 2007, 02:18 PM

Taking the OP seriously for a second (no offense to MA and her bouncing boobies of justice), the atheist equivalent to AA is called Rational Recovery - http://rational.org/

I found this thread about atheist drug and alcohol recovery (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/archive/index.php/t-35952.html) which includes links to AA groups where they don't emphasize God and other information.

Lawyer-speak to follow:
Nothing above is meant as an endorsement of the tactics or success rate of any group or method.

Now that you've joined us all in making a serious response, we must discuss your super powers.

I suggest you be the Legal Eagle! You can fly over people and drop flaming law books and binders full of lengthy declarations & exhibits at them. And, when someone sues us for destroying their little building to stop a jewel thief, we'll have legal advice handy.

Katana

19th July 2007, 02:36 PM

Can I be like Storm?

I like the idea of manipulating lightning.

Well, Jean Grey's powers are also pretty cool.

Miss Anthrope

19th July 2007, 02:40 PM

Can I be like Storm?

I like the idea of manipulating lightning.

Well, Jean Grey's powers are also pretty cool.

GRANTED!

skeptifem

19th July 2007, 02:41 PM

Should ask them why Jesus got them hooked on drugs in the first place - can't he make his bloody mind up?

they can always pull that 'gods plan' thing. which makes just about as much sense, but remember, we are all too simple to understand gods plan despite being able to find obvious flaws in it :rolleyes:

i just want to say "who put down the bottle? you or jesus?". praying as a technique is on the same level as any other strategy for quitting imo, it works for some people and not for others. Anyone who says their way is the only way looks like an idiot to me because its so obviously not true.

skeptifem

19th July 2007, 02:44 PM

Well, Jean Grey's powers are also pretty cool.
:mad: oh i friggin hate jean grey. i remember me and my sister making fun of her as kids because she said "scott! help me!" or a variation of that so often in the cartoon show. jean is worthless!

anyway... i want mystiques powers. that would friggin RULE. that seems to have the most practical applications as well as the most potential for hilarious usage.

Faithkills

19th July 2007, 02:45 PM

I was just thinking -- I've heard countless people say they have gotten off drugs through Christianity but have never heard anyone say atheism has gotten them off drugs?

Only atheism can get people off drugs. Otherwise they are just switching drugs, and are likely to go back or switch again. Hence the meetings of various 12 step organizations will always have members.

Lisa Simpson

19th July 2007, 02:48 PM

I demand the power of riding fast up hill on my bicycle!

(wearing spandex)

GRANTED.

Meadmaker

19th July 2007, 03:04 PM

I think it more closely correlates with the fact that my team is the Red Sox.

You don't know how good you have it.

Go, Cubs!

Katana

19th July 2007, 03:21 PM

GRANTED!

Sweet! :D

:mad: oh i friggin hate jean grey. i remember me and my sister making fun of her as kids because she said "scott! help me!" or a variation of that so often in the cartoon show. jean is worthless!

anyway... i want mystiques powers. that would friggin RULE. that seems to have the most practical applications as well as the most potential for hilarious usage.

Mystique is pretty awesome, too. You can do a lot with her, ahem, skills.

I can definitely see your argument for the "Scott, help me" poop, but Jean's still pretty cool if you only consider the nature of her power.

By the way, Wolverine is HOT! Sorry, I digress...

You don't know how good you have it.

Go, Cubs!

I know. At least Red Sox fans have had some return on their years of hope & sorrow.

I would love nothing more than to see the damned Cubs do something one of these years, and Wrigley Field is still one of the best darned places to see a game that I can think of.

Loss Leader

19th July 2007, 03:30 PM

Now that you've joined us all in making a serious response, we must discuss your super powers.

The super power I most want is the ability to make others doubt their own intelligence.

Miss Anthrope

19th July 2007, 03:44 PM

The super power I most want is the ability to make others doubt their own intelligence.

Man!

Shockwave boobs, no problem. Spandex, control of lightening, laser eyes.....no problem.

What you're asking for is simply not feasible!

Tricky

19th July 2007, 03:45 PM

As a frequent imbiber of alcoholic beverages, I can say that I had my first drink in church at communion. I remember it to this day, thinking, "Wow! That's good!"

Ryan O'Dine

19th July 2007, 03:46 PM

I'm going to need a second power: an ability to not stare at all the super-boobies at the team meetings.

Speaking of which, do we have a name yet?

The Skeptical League of Superboobie Friends and Spandex Wearers?

Miss Anthrope

19th July 2007, 03:49 PM

As a frequent imbiber of alcoholic beverages, I can say that I had my first drink in church at communion. I remember it to this day, thinking, "Wow! That's good!"

Haha! So true. For me, growing up in a half jewish, half "whatever" household (we celebrated everything for tradition, not religion), I loved the years we did Jewish holidays. Required drinking of concord grape flavored kosher wine on Passover certainly helped pass the night away......and definitely gave us a taste for booze.

skeptifem

19th July 2007, 04:00 PM

we started celebrating festivus awhile back

Dogdoctor

19th July 2007, 04:00 PM

No but I did give up drugs and a life of crime for the power of agnosticism

Miss Anthrope

19th July 2007, 04:06 PM

The Skeptical League of Superboobie Friends and Spandex Wearers?

Seconded.

ponderingturtle

19th July 2007, 04:48 PM

My Powers of Atheismtm got me a husband. Does that count? If not, can I have hypnotic boobies? "Stare into my boobies, you will do everything I say. When I count to three, you will fly to Australia and bring me Tim Tams. One . . . Two . . ."

You do realize the fatal flaw with such a super power? That when they have been hypnotized by your breasts they are not going to hear a thing you say.

ponderingturtle

19th July 2007, 04:51 PM

one thing i do hate about the 'jesus got me off drugs' crowd is that they always credit god with quitting, like individuals have nothing to do with their own lives. its crap.

No they take all the responcibility for the getting hooked on drugs in the first place. Well except when it was all a test of their faith I guess.

JoeEllison

19th July 2007, 04:53 PM

The Skeptical League of Superboobie Friends and Spandex Wearers?

Man, I ain't wearing no stinking spandex!

The hairs on my legs always poke through, and then when it take off the spandex I yank a few hairs out. Screw that!:eek:

Lisa Simpson

19th July 2007, 04:54 PM

The Skeptical League of Superboobie Friends and Spandex Wearers?

Seconded.

Thirdeded.

JoeEllison

19th July 2007, 04:56 PM

I'ma dress like I'm in Mushroomhead! (http://www.efestivals.co.uk/photos/ozzfest/2002/mushroomheadPR02b.jpg)

skeptifem

19th July 2007, 05:01 PM

I'ma dress like I'm in Mushroomhead! (http://www.efestivals.co.uk/photos/ozzfest/2002/mushroomheadPR02b.jpg)

GTFO!

kmortis

19th July 2007, 05:02 PM

Ooo..Ooo... I want the Super Power to make everything I say sound like it's really important. And making others vomit.

Ok, that last bit isn't really so much a super power, but rather a side effect of me wearing spandex.

IMST

19th July 2007, 05:06 PM

I'm trying to not believe hard enough to get me some super bank makes an error in your favor power. With the riches I "earn" I'll quit my job and POST CATS ALL DAY!! *evil laughter*

Dancing David

19th July 2007, 06:40 PM

I was just thinking -- I've heard countless people say they have gotten off drugs through Christianity but have never heard anyone say atheism has gotten them off drugs?

If someone hasn't said it already, check our Rational Recovery by Jack Trimpey

Dancing David

19th July 2007, 06:49 PM

As long as you are a True Atheist, you can join.

Speaking of which, somebody needs to pick up the power to spot other True Atheists and point them out to me so I don't death ray them in my lust for carnage.

Does a True Ateist wear a kilt? Or carry a popcorn bucket?

Dancing David

19th July 2007, 06:54 PM

The Skeptical League of Superboobie Friends and Spandex Wearers?

Hypothetical Teenage Lesbians and the Elders of Evidence?

I want my super power to be ... the ability to make people's trousers drop(action at a distance).

Lisa Simpson

19th July 2007, 06:54 PM

Hokulele

19th July 2007, 08:05 PM

You do realize the fatal flaw with such a super power? That when they have been hypnotized by your breasts they are not going to hear a thing you say.

"Stare into my boobies. You will remember everything I say . . ."

strathmeyer

19th July 2007, 08:12 PM

How many people has religion driven to drugs?

DOC, religion drove me to drugs, and atheism got me off them. What is your question?

Achán hiNidráne

19th July 2007, 08:45 PM

Can I have laser boobie powers?

D Cups... FULL OF JUSTICE!

(If I can just find a pic or a clip of Cpt. Murphy as the Adrienne Barbeaubot to post here, my life would be complete.)

joobz

19th July 2007, 08:50 PM

Can I have laser boobie powers?
ahhh!!! I'm Blind!!!!

Achán hiNidráne

19th July 2007, 08:52 PM

BTW, DOC:

http://www.secularsobriety.org/

Tricky

19th July 2007, 09:14 PM

Haha! So true. For me, growing up in a half jewish, half "whatever" household (we celebrated everything for tradition, not religion), I loved the years we did Jewish holidays. Required drinking of concord grape flavored kosher wine on Passover certainly helped pass the night away......and definitely gave us a taste for booze.
Mogan David: Corrupter of youths. (My Episcopal church used Jewish wine. There must be some irony here somewhere.)

vexed

19th July 2007, 09:40 PM

The only time people get off drugs is when they truly see the need to, IHMO.

Solus

19th July 2007, 11:03 PM

Aren't we part of some Borg-like collective?

WE ARE ATHEISTS YOU WILL BE ASSIMILATED...

Miss Anthrope

19th July 2007, 11:10 PM

Mogan David: Corrupter of youths. (My Episcopal church used Jewish wine. There must be some irony here somewhere.)

Well Jesus was Jewish, so why not his "blood"?

DOC

15th October 2007, 12:28 PM

The only time people get off drugs is when they truly see the need to, IHMO.

Or when they die, like these many well-known people:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_drug-related_deaths

Marquis de Carabas

15th October 2007, 12:30 PM

DOC

15th October 2007, 12:43 PM

Originally Posted by DOC
Or when they die, like these many well-known people:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...related_deaths

I was trying to dig up a list of Christianity-related deaths, but it seems the internet's not that big.

Here are some for the 1st Century:

Apostolic Age—1st century

* Saint Stephen, Protomartyr, was stoned c. 35 A.D.
* James the Great (Son of Zebedee) was beheaded in 44 A.D.
* Philip the Apostle was crucified in 54 A.D.
* Matthew the Evangelist killed by a halberd in 60 A.D.
* James the Just, beaten to death by a club after being crucified and stoned.
* Matthias was stoned and beheaded.
* Saint Andrew, St. Peter's brother, was crucified.
* Mark was beaten to death.
* Saint Peter, crucified upside-down.
* Apostle Paul, beheaded in Rome.
* Saint Jude was crucified.
* Saint Bartholomew was crucified.
* Thomas the Apostle was killed by a spear.
* Luke the Evangelist was hanged.
* Simon the Zealot was crucified in 74 A.D.

(Note: John the Evangelist according to legend was cooked in boiling hot oil but survived. He was the only one of the original twelve Apostles who was not martyred).

There are a lot more at this Wiki website

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_martyrs

Hokulele

15th October 2007, 12:45 PM

Or when they die, like these many well-known people:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_drug-related_deaths

I was trying to dig up a list of Christianity-related deaths, but it seems the internet's not that big.

Here are some for the 1st Century:

<snip>

There are a lot more at this Wiki website

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_martyrs

I rarely say this, but I am truly rolling around on the floor laughing at this point. DOC, you really are your own worst enemy on this thread.

Marquis de Carabas

15th October 2007, 12:45 PM

No, not martyrs, you tool. The people who have died because some of your religious compatriots are almost as insanely bloodthirsty as your God.

Damn it, now I remember why I never pith on you.

Hokulele

15th October 2007, 12:47 PM

Damn it, now I remember why I never pith on you.

And now I am laughing even harder. I wish all Mondays were this funny.

brodski

15th October 2007, 12:49 PM

Damn it, now I remember why I never pith on you.

Not even if he was on fire?

ImaginalDisc

15th October 2007, 12:52 PM

Not even if he was on fire?

Does enjoying the image of Doc, on fire and begging to be pithed on, make me a bad person?

kmortis

15th October 2007, 12:55 PM

Does enjoying the image of Doc, on fire and begging to be pithed on, make me a bad person?

No, just part of the crowd....

Marquis de Carabas

15th October 2007, 12:58 PM

Not even if he was on fire?
Not even then (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2823946#post2823946).

Skeptic Guy

15th October 2007, 01:03 PM

Originally Posted by DOC
Or when they die, like these many well-known people:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...related_deaths

Here are some for the 1st Century:

Apostolic Age—1st century

* Saint Stephen, Protomartyr, was stoned c. 35 A.D.
* James the Great (Son of Zebedee) was beheaded in 44 A.D.
* Philip the Apostle was crucified in 54 A.D.
* Matthew the Evangelist killed by a halberd in 60 A.D.
* James the Just, beaten to death by a club after being crucified and stoned.
* Matthias was stoned and beheaded.
* Saint Andrew, St. Peter's brother, was crucified.
* Mark was beaten to death.
* Saint Peter, crucified upside-down.
* Apostle Paul, beheaded in Rome.
* Saint Jude was crucified.
* Saint Bartholomew was crucified.
* Thomas the Apostle was killed by a spear.
* Luke the Evangelist was hanged.
* Simon the Zealot was crucified in 74 A.D.

(Note: John the Evangelist according to legend was cooked in boiling hot oil but survived. He was the only one of the original twelve Apostles who was not martyred).

There are a lot more at this Wiki website

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_martyrs

Dammit, the thread went back to the OP before I got to put my vote in for laser boobies and spandex! I want to join as long as I don't have to wear spandex and I can stare at boobies all day!

kmortis

15th October 2007, 01:04 PM

No, not martyrs, you tool. The people who have died because some of your religious compatriots are almost as insanely bloodthirsty as your God.

Damn it, now I remember why I never pith on you.

Do you mean people like John Britton?

DOC

15th October 2007, 01:04 PM

And now I am laughing even harder. I wish all Mondays were this funny.

This is an empty post and irrelevant and thus a violation of Randis rules. So are several posts that follow it.

Hokulele

15th October 2007, 01:12 PM

This is an empty post and irrelevant and thus a violation of Randis rules. So are several posts that follow it.

Stop, stop! You are killing me here.

* Weakly pounding on the table trying to stop laughing *

kmortis

15th October 2007, 01:14 PM

This is an empty post and irrelevant and thus a violation of Randis rules. So are several posts that follow it.

Then again, I direct your attention to the little button with the exclaimation mark. Report it and move on.

AudioFreak

15th October 2007, 01:20 PM

This is an empty post and irrelevant and thus a violation of Randis rules.

Much like many of the threads you start.

To respond to the opening post...

You're looking at it completely wrong. Do you mean to say that God took away their addiction? Or was it the months of rehab and therapy and inner turmoil? It's not the existence of God but their faith in it that they use as a crutch to help them emotionally. I think it's unfair to the people who worked hard to help rehabilitate an addict when they credit God with it. I do know an atheist who overcame cocaine and heroine addiction; no belief in God at all.

If the fact that some people credit God with getting them over their addiction, why don't they blame him for letting it happen?

Atheism makes no claims to be a source of strength or supernatural power the same way evolution makes no claims of explaining abiogenesis. This is along the lines of asking if anyone has ever murdered in the name of atheism. There's nothing to murder in the name of. Atheists are not a religion; atheists only share 1 single belief across the board - we do not believe there is a god or gods.

DOC

15th October 2007, 01:37 PM

Then again, I direct your attention to the little button with the exclaimation mark. Report it and move on. I have, and will do so in the future.

Hammer_of_Thor

15th October 2007, 01:41 PM

I was just thinking -- I've heard countless people say they have gotten off drugs through Christianity but have never heard anyone say atheism has gotten them off drugs?

DOC,

In my case it was not drugs but depression. I was suffering from severe depression for much of my childhood and early adulthood. I would pray to god to help me. I prayed and prayed. My brother, who is a believer, said that I should keep praying. That god would help me if it was "gods will" Praying got me nowhere. What did get me somewhere is when I told god to "suck it"(Thanks Kathy Griffin) and went and got help from a doctor. The doctor prescribed me some medication and low and behold...I was feeling better.

Funny how when I asked god for help I got nothing. When I asked science to help me I was helped.

I feel like this was a big turning point in my life from believer to atheist.

DOC

15th October 2007, 01:49 PM

Much like many of the threads you start.

Then stay out of them, its quite simple.

_____

Quote:
To respond to the opening post...
You're looking at it completely wrong. Do you mean to say that God took away their addiction? Or was it the months of rehab and therapy and inner turmoil?

Well Alcoholics Anonymous and other programs use the 12 step program which has been successful and talks about a Higher power (aka God).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve-step_program

Hammer_of_Thor

15th October 2007, 01:57 PM

Well Alcoholics Anonymous and other programs use the 12 step program which has been successful and talks about a Higher power (aka God).

I went to AA and they dropped the higher power stuff on me. I asked them why it matters who I stop drinking for. IMO it should not matter who I stop drinking for. My wife, kids, parents, dog or my left shoe just as long as I dont abuse alcohol anymore.

grayman

15th October 2007, 02:35 PM

Then stay out of them, its quite simple.

_____

Quote:
To respond to the opening post...
You're looking at it completely wrong. Do you mean to say that God took away their addiction? Or was it the months of rehab and therapy and inner turmoil?

Well Alcoholics Anonymous and other programs use the 12 step program which has been successful and talks about a Higher power (aka God).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve-step_program

IIRC, P&T's episode on 12 step programs found that those who tried to quit substance abuse on their own had a success rate of 5%, those that used a 12 step program had a success rate of 5%. It's not the program, it's the individual.

I attended a one of those programs (courtesy of the local court system) and it did absolutely nothing for me. I quit when I decided I had enough. Just me. Little ol' atheist me. No getting down on my knees and asking for help from whichever imaginary deity you choose.

Guess what? No alcohol for seventeen years now. No desire either. I try to enjoy every day as much as possible because I know that this is all we get.

articulett

15th October 2007, 02:47 PM

Hey, I was just thinking...has anyone not used drugs because a clergy member did not molest them as a a child?

What percentage of molested people are molested by religious people? Do you think being an atheist makes you less likely to experience such horrific abuse of trust?

What is Narcanon's success rate (Scientologist run org.) versus Jesus versus secular programs like "rational recovery"? Do you think non believers are more or less likely to abuse substances. I know Randi and Penn And Teller prefer clear thinking and don't smoke, drink, or use drugs. I am sure my use of such substances is much lower than average and close to non-existent.

I wonder how many people healed by "Jesus" aren't really healed--or have relapses or have their cancer come back compared to the percentages of people who didn't seek such cures?

I wonder if DOC knows what confirmation bias is and how transparent he sounds?

I wonder if DOC understands that though he's propping up his belief in his own head... his inferences have no basis in actual reality though we can see that he truly believes he's making a wise point?

Ryan O'Dine

15th October 2007, 02:49 PM

Or when they die, like these many well-known people:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_drug-related_deaths

I can't help but wonder how many of those people were Christians. A lot, I imagine.

ImaginalDisc

15th October 2007, 02:51 PM

I can't help but wonder how many of those people were Christians. A lot, I imagine.

Don't se silly. If they were really Christian, they wouldn't have died from drugs.

joobz

15th October 2007, 02:57 PM

A more interesting question is how many people got drunk on Communion wine?
Is being blitzed by the blood of christ a sin or does it make you Superman?
How many midiclorians does the wine gain during transubstantiation?
Does the power of christ complex you?

grayman

15th October 2007, 03:01 PM

DOC, have you ever been to an AA meeting? Just curious, nothing more.

ksbluesfan

15th October 2007, 03:32 PM

DOC, I assume, since you're a Christian, that you don't believe in Scientology, is that correct? One of Scientology's greatest claims is the number of people they have helped get off of drugs and alcohol. Is the world better off thanks to Scientology? I don't think so.

On the flip side, how many atheists have flown airplanes into skyscrapers in the name of atheism?

BTW, I like the direction this thread is headed. Sorry to keep it on topic. I want superpowers too, but not the kind Howard Stern had. That's just gross.

articulett

15th October 2007, 03:46 PM

Don't se silly. If they were really Christian, they wouldn't have died from drugs.

Unless it was god's way of "calling them home", of course.

(I wonder if atheists--being into rationalism and reality and such-- are less likely to look for escapes like drugs and religion and the like.)

Upchurch

15th October 2007, 04:15 PM

(I wonder if atheists--being into rationalism and reality and such-- are less likely to look for escapes like drugs and religion and the like.)

Generally speaking (i.e. not including this board and affiliated groups), I don't think that most atheists necessarily get there via rationalism and realism. I would hazard a guess that most atheists get there through the stereotypical rebellion from religion.

After all, most stereotypes became stereotypes from an historical precedent.

strathmeyer

15th October 2007, 04:20 PM

Then stay out of them, its quite simple.
No, you stay out of them.
Well Alcoholics Anonymous and other programs use the 12 step program which has been successful and talks about a Higher power (aka God).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve-step_program

No, it hasn't been successful. Sorry. What now?

DOC

15th October 2007, 05:06 PM

What percentage of molested people are molested by religious people? Do you think being an atheist makes you less likely to experience such horrific abuse of trust?

Probably a less percentage than those students sexually abused by teachers. It seems every month or so I read about some teacher getting in trouble for that.

DOC

15th October 2007, 05:17 PM

No, it {12 step program} hasn't been successful. Sorry.

Well, I would have to disagree:

"The Twelve Steps were originally published in the first edition of Alcoholics Anonymous ("The Big Book") in 1939; more than 25 million copies have been printed in many languages.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve-step_program

Cleon

15th October 2007, 05:44 PM

Hokulele

15th October 2007, 05:46 PM

Oh Cleon, don't be so cruel as to take away his argument from popularity. It is all he has left.

joobz

15th October 2007, 06:02 PM

DOC

15th October 2007, 06:21 PM

So has dianetics.
Are you a scientologist?

No because I don't believe in the alien ruler Xenu.

http://historyofscientology.ytmnd.com/

articulett

15th October 2007, 06:22 PM

Probably a less percentage than those students sexually abused by teachers. It seems every month or so I read about some teacher getting in trouble for that.

Yes... they do seem to be having such troubles at Oral Roberts University... Oh wait-- that's the leadership... not the teachers!

Doc suppose you had a prophecy about the future in which you learned that not a single person would be converted in anyway by your posts which you are certain are informative and insightful. Moreover, suppose you learned that you would actually suffer a loss of faith couple with better thinking skills the longer you stayed around. Would you continue to post?

I think most people find Hokulele's posts more informative, insightful, and amusing than yours. What if a general vote was taken about who they found more valuable of a poster and whom they felt should be censured, and you found out that you were the loser.... that the majority, including Randi, found you more offensive and pointless--would you change at all?

Would you gain an ounce of humility? A single clue? Or do you just trod on convinced that god has a reason for your behavior?

Hokulele

15th October 2007, 06:32 PM

No because I don't believe in the alien ruler Xenu.

http://historyofscientology.ytmnd.com/

Why don't you believe in the alien ruler Xenu?

grayman

15th October 2007, 06:38 PM

No, you stay out of them.

No, it hasn't been successful. Sorry. What now?

Well, I would have to disagree:

As for 12 step programs being successful:

Nothing could be further from the truth. Even the most ardent true believers who will be honest about it recognize that A.A. and N.A. have at least 90% failure rates. And the real numbers are more like 95% or 98% or 100% failure rates. It depends on who is doing the counting, how they are counting, and what they are counting or measuring.

A 5% success rate is nothing more than the rate of spontaneous remission in alcoholics and drug addicts. That is, out of any given group of alcoholics or drug addicts, approximately 5% per year will just wise up, and quit killing themselves. They just get sick and tired of being sick and tired, and of watching their friends die. (And something between 1% and 3% of their friends do die annually, so that is a big incentive.) They often quit with little or no official treatment or help. Some actually detox themselves on their own couches, or in their own beds, or locked in their own closets. Often, they don't go to a lot of meetings. They just quit, all on their own, or with the help of a couple of good friends who keep them locked up for a few days while they go through withdrawal. A.A. and N.A. true believers insist that addicts can't successfully quit that way, but they do, every day.
Taken from this site (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-effectiveness.html).

joobz

15th October 2007, 06:50 PM

No because I don't believe in the alien ruler Xenu.

http://historyofscientology.ytmnd.com/

No, but you believe in a man god who wants you to perform ritual cannibalism once a week.

You're right. an alein ruler is just too crazy.

JoeEllison

15th October 2007, 07:22 PM

I've known people who were forced to participate in AA for several years at a stretch... and the truth is that very few people remain sober on AA, for any real stretch of time. Many of the few who do stay sober seem to become addicted to AA, replacing one dependency for another.

Achán hiNidráne

15th October 2007, 07:23 PM

Why don't you believe in the alien ruler Xenu?

Yeah? Why don't you believe in Xenu or the alleged spirtual power of L. Ron, DOC?

Why don't you believe in Allah?
Why don't you believe in Shiva?
Why don't you believe in Zeus?
Why don't you believe in Ishtar?
Why don't you believe in Ra?
Why don't you believe in Amaterasu?
Why don't you believe in Cernunnus?
Why don't you believe in Shango?
Why don't you believe in Quetzalcoatl?
Why don't you believe in Thor?
Why don't you believe in Wankan Tanka?
Why don't you believe in Lady Avanthe?
Why don't you believe in Great Cthulhu?
Why don't you believe in Flying Spaghetti Monster?

We could go on like this all day, but what is it about Jehovah that makes him more believable than any of these deities.

articulett

15th October 2007, 07:29 PM

I was bulimic as a teen, and I read that you couldn't cure it without help of some sort. So I immediately set out to prove that statement wrong. And I did. I had stopped believing in god before that time (age 17); I just decided I'd rather be fat than bulimic, and I found out I didn't have to be either. This invisible overlord gets a lot of credit for things he doesn't do is my conclusion.

athon

15th October 2007, 08:13 PM

Probably a less percentage than those students sexually abused by teachers. It seems every month or so I read about some teacher getting in trouble for that.

Got figures for that? What is the comparison between abuse of students in secular versus non-secular educatio systems?

What's that? You don't know? Then why are you even bothering to propose this as a response?

:rolleyes:

Athon

hgc

15th October 2007, 08:22 PM

I was just thinking -- I've heard countless people say they have gotten off drugs through Christianity but have never heard anyone say atheism has gotten them off drugs?

I refuse to believe this came about by thinking.

Cosmo

15th October 2007, 08:43 PM

No because I don't believe in the alien ruler Xenu.

http://historyofscientology.ytmnd.com/

Oh wow, an Argument from YTMND!

A forum first?

ThatSoundAgain

15th October 2007, 08:47 PM

Probably a less percentage than those students sexually abused by teachers. It seems every month or so I read about some teacher getting in trouble for that.

Yup, because every time you read of such accusations against the clergy, they never seem to get in any real trouble for it. That's going to skew your statistics right there.

But seriously, there's a charismatic christian sect around here that claims to be able to cure schizophrenics and heroin addicts through prayer and exorcism. In a week. If that's not playing with fire, I don't know what is.

Makes me mad just thinking about it.

Safe-Keeper

15th October 2007, 08:51 PM

Probably a less percentage than those students sexually abused by teachers. It seems every month or so I read about some teacher getting in trouble for that.And out of those teachers, how many are Christian or otherwise religious?

DOC

15th October 2007, 10:16 PM

Originally Posted by DOC
Probably a less percentage than those students sexually abused by teachers. It seems every month or so I read about some teacher getting in trouble for that.

Got figures for that?

Read any big city newspaper, you'll get your figures.

DOC

15th October 2007, 10:32 PM

skeptifem

15th October 2007, 10:38 PM

Read any big city newspaper, you'll get your figures.

epic fail

thats not how it works

DOC

15th October 2007, 11:12 PM

Originally Posted by DOC

Read any big city newspaper, you'll get your figures.

epic fail

thats not how it works

OK, here are some figures:

From the article "Sexual abuse by Teachers said worse than Catholic Church" by Jon Dolugherty -- Newsmax.

'Now, on the heels of the Catholic abuse scandal comes another of historic proportions—one that has the potential to be much greater and far-reaching. According to a draft report commissioned by the U.S. Department of Education, in compliance with the 2002 "No Child Left Behind" act signed into law by President Bush, between 6 percent and 10 percent of public school children across the country have been sexually abused or harassed by school employees and teachers.

Charol Shakeshaft, the Hofstra University scholar who prepared the report, said the number of abuse cases—which range from unwanted sexual comments to rape—could be much higher.

"So we think the Catholic Church has a problem?" she told industry newspaper Education Week in a March 10 interview.

To support her contention, Shakeshaft compared the priest abuse data with data collected in a national survey for the American Association of University Women Educational Foundation in 2000. Extrapolating data from the latter, she estimated roughly 290,000 students experienced some sort of physical sexual abuse by a school employee from a single decade—1991-2000. That compares with about five decades of cases of abusive priests.

Such figures led her to contend "the physical sexual abuse of students in schools is likely more than 100 times the abuse by priests."

http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2004/4/5/01552.shtml

The above article is over 3 years old and I've heard nothing about this info on the national mainstream media. Whereas the Catholic priest scandal was everywhere.

wollery

15th October 2007, 11:30 PM

And how many US school teachers are christians?

What percentage of the abuse was performed by these christian teachers. Do you have a breakdown of how many abuse cases take place in each part of the country? How many by local average income? How many by local majority religious denomination? How many but local majority political leaning? Without these data

Also, you left out some rather telling paragraphs;
"The dynamics of the teacher-student cases are often different than the classic sexual abuse cases because they seem to involve consenting relationships between teachers and students," Finkelhor, director of the Center for Crimes Against Children Research Center at the University of New Hampshire, told the wire service. ". . . Clear boundaries have to be enforced."
and;
Nan Stein, director of a project on sexual harassment in schools at the Center for Research on Women at Wellesley College, cited far fewer cases annually than Shakeshaft; she said she believes "several hundred" cases of student-teacher sexual abuse cases occur each year.

And six years earlier Education Week searched newspaper archives and databases, finding 244 cases in a six-month period. The allegations in that short 1998 study ranged from unwanted touching to sexual relationships and serial rape.

You aren't helping your case here DOC.

quixotecoyote

15th October 2007, 11:55 PM

DOC serves as a constant reminder to read your links before you post them.

DOC

16th October 2007, 12:12 AM

You aren't helping your case here DOC.

This doesn't help my case??

"Such figures led her {Charol Shakeshaft, Hofstra University scholar who prepared the report commissioned by the U.S. Department of Education} to contend "the physical sexual abuse of students in schools is likely more than 100 times the abuse by priests."

Well, you've got the right to your opinion.

And as far as some of the cases being consensual, it doesn't matter if there consensual or not (according to the law and to the teacher and school rules).

Hokulele

16th October 2007, 12:33 AM

Why don't you believe in the alien ruler Xenu?

Just a feeling I have, do you or anyone else in here believe in him? If so tell us why we should believe in him. From what I understand new members to Scientology aren't told about him for a substantial period of time.

So "just a feeling" is good enough for you to not believe in Xenu. I feel pretty much the same way about your god and bible, although I do have other bases for my feelings including the texts from other religions (I have read several), and the distaste I feel for the systematic misogyny in the various christian sects.

And no, I don't believe in Xenu either, although there is at least one member of this forum who is a Scientologist.

Now, picture having the same "feeling" about your god that you do about Xenu. That's pretty much all there is to atheism. Really, that's all it is.

arthwollipot

16th October 2007, 01:09 AM

Generally speaking (i.e. not including this board and affiliated groups), I don't think that most atheists necessarily get there via rationalism and realism. I would hazard a guess that most atheists get there through the stereotypical rebellion from religion.

Not in my case. OK, I left the church I was going to. But I didn't actually become an atheist until long afterwards. I remember the moment clearly. I had been reading The Elegant Universe by Brian Greene and I suddenly realised, out of the blue, that I was an atheist. And that was a good ten years after I stopped going to church. I had dabbled in a little neopaganism in the meantime. My atheism did not come from a rebellion from religion.

And for the record, I exchanged my eye lasers for a more appropriate Halloween icon, even though we don't celebrate halloween in this country. I'm all for the boobies though.

wollery

16th October 2007, 01:11 AM

This doesn't help my case??

"Such figures led her {Charol Shakeshaft, Hofstra University scholar who prepared the report commissioned by the U.S. Department of Education} to contend "the physical sexual abuse of students in schools is likely more than 100 times the abuse by priests."

Well, you've got the right to your opinion.

And as far as some of the cases being consensual, it doesn't matter if there consensual or not (according to the law and to the teacher and school rules).*sigh*

From the article you linked to;

Charol Shakeshaft.......estimated roughly 290,000 students experienced some sort of physical sexual abuse by a school employee from a single decade—1991-2000.A rough estimate that equates to 29,000 cases per year.

But, from the same article!!!

Nan Stein, director of a project on sexual harassment in schools at the Center for Research on Women at Wellesley College, cited far fewer cases annually than Shakeshaft; she said she believes "several hundred" cases of student-teacher sexual abuse cases occur each year.Several hundred per year, as opposed to 29,000 per year. That's not just a disagreement between data, that's two orders of magnitude difference!!

And both are estimates.

Also;

And six years earlier Education Week searched newspaper archives and databases, finding 244 cases in a six-month period.244 in a 6 month period. That's 488 in a year (assuming that the rates remain constant throughout the year, which I'd bet they don't). That's far less than 29,000. Almost 60 times less! To a first approximation, again, two orders of magnitude difference!

The very same article that you linked to and are citing as your source is refuting your claim!!

But more important, we need to look at rates of abuse, not just raw numbers. How many public school children are there in the US, and how many church going Catholic children are there? How many public school teachers are there, and how many Catholic priests? Now compare these numbers to the number of reported abuse cases, and the number of reported abusers in public schools and Catholic churches. That gives you the rates of child abuse, per child, and per abuser for each situation.

I'd lay very long odds that both these numbers are far higher for the Catholic children and priests.

In other words, although the number of children abused by public school teachers may be a bit higher, the chance of being abused is higher if you are a Catholic child, and the chance of a Catholic priest being an abuser is higher than the chance of a public school teacher being an abuser.

In very simple terms, your children are safer in a public school than a Catholic church.

joobz

16th October 2007, 04:44 AM

Just a feeling I have, do you or anyone else in here believe in him? If so tell us why we should believe in him. From what I understand new members to Scientology aren't told about him for a substantial period of time.
So cannibalism and a wrathful doomsday borught by a "loving god" feels right? Pardon me if I find that a little scary.

Dancing David

16th October 2007, 05:10 AM

This is an empty post and irrelevant and thus a violation of Randis rules. So are several posts that follow it.

And what do you think your whining about it is?

Thefferin thucotath, this is an empty potht and irrelevant and thus a violation of Randith rulth. Tho are therveral pothtth that follow it.

Dancing David

16th October 2007, 05:13 AM

Dancing David

16th October 2007, 05:18 AM

IIRC, P&T's episode on 12 step programs found that those who tried to quit substance abuse on their own had a success rate of 5%, those that used a 12 step program had a success rate of 5%. It's not the program, it's the individual.

I attended a one of those programs (courtesy of the local court system) and it did absolutely nothing for me. I quit when I decided I had enough. Just me. Little ol' atheist me. No getting down on my knees and asking for help from whichever imaginary deity you choose.

Guess what? No alcohol for seventeen years now. No desire either. I try to enjoy every day as much as possible because I know that this is all we get.

I like it, that is Jack trimppey's 'Big Choice' in rational recovery.

ponderingturtle

16th October 2007, 05:37 AM

Well, I would have to disagree:

"The Twelve Steps were originally published in the first edition of Alcoholics Anonymous ("The Big Book") in 1939; more than 25 million copies have been printed in many languages.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve-step_program

So with Dianetics hitting the 22 million mark in less time than that, it means that Scientology is more true(add in the other Scientology books I am sure you out sell AA).

Also Discworld is much more true than any of them with Pratchett having 45 million in sales.

articulett

16th October 2007, 05:40 AM

I think the clergy have much more potential for unreported and hidden abuse of the faithful (trained not to question god or his proxy)-- http://aintnogod.blogspot.com/2006/04/and-now-for-something-entirely.html

As a teacher, I am well aware of the extensive training and vigilance and examination of the situation in education. Education like science is open to questioning and doesn't hide its' dirty little secrets behind god talk. But I bet if you ask any crowd to raise their hands if they've been abused by a clergy member and then to raise their hands if they've been abused by a teacher... I am quite certain you'd find many more in the former group...and a lot of overlap for those who had a religious education.

I am also quite sure that believing in Jesus does not make drug addiction less likely or a cure more likely. Believers are, however, better at lying to themselves and others to protect their illusions.

Lothian

16th October 2007, 05:49 AM

* Saint Stephen, Protomartyr, was stoned c. 35 A.D.Pah I have been stoned loads of times.
* James the Great (Son of Zebedee) was beheaded in 44 A.D. Classic case of the sins of the father being taken out on the son. If Zebedee hadn’t annoyed so many people with his incessant bouncing on that infernal spring poor James could have lived.
* Philip the Apostle was crucified in 54 A.D. Crucified. I bet that made him cross.
* Matthew the Evangelist killed by a halberd in 60 A.D. Halberds nasty creatures, I thought Gandalf was a goner when one pulled him into the pit at Khazad-dum
* James the Just, beaten to death by a club after being crucified and stoned. Any clues as to which club did it. No doubt a Christian mothers club angry at his illicit drug use.

* Matthias was stoned and beheaded. What is with this ritualistic murder of people relaxing with a joint.

* Saint Andrew, St. Peter's brother, was crucified. See above.

* Mark was beaten to death. Who by ? I didn’t know there was a race.

* Saint Peter, crucified upside-down. Peter, Patron saint of Australia, no doubt.

* Apostle Paul, beheaded in Rome. They did it a lot there, I guess he took the ‘When in Rome’ saying a bit too literally.

* Saint Jude was crucified. See above.

* Saint Bartholomew was crucified. See above.

* Thomas the Apostle was killed by a spear. Hunting accidents were more common in those days,.
* Luke the Evangelist was hanged. Not hanged; hung or well hung depending on the size.
* Simon the Zealot was crucified in 74 A.D. He was a zealot what did he expect.

Ryan O'Dine

16th October 2007, 07:02 AM

Or when they die, like these many well-known people:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_drug-related_deaths

On a whim I went a little deeper into that list, and lo and behold, look who I found...

Elvis Presley (42) - singer, heart attack brought on by overdose of barbiturates.

If it isn’t the Chrisitian King of Rock and Roll himself! Whoda thunk?

grayman

16th October 2007, 07:07 AM

Yeah yeah, you ignored it before and your will ignore it again, Rational Recovery Save our Sobriety don't.

As he also ignores my post about A.A. and N.A.

I like it, that is Jack trimppey's 'Big Choice' in rational recovery.

Cool. :stone028:

Hammer_of_Thor

16th October 2007, 07:54 AM

He didnt respond to my posts either.

Cleon

16th October 2007, 08:14 AM

He didnt respond to my posts either.

That's DOC's MO. He won't respond to posts that he finds inconvenient. He will go so far as to studiously remove any inconvenient material from the posts he does respond to, lest he be forced to acknowledge something that may not be 100% in line with his preconceived notions.

Hammer_of_Thor

16th October 2007, 08:25 AM

That's DOC's MO. He won't respond to posts that he finds inconvenient. He will go so far as to studiously remove any inconvenient material from the posts he does respond to, lest he be forced to acknowledge something that may not be 100% in line with his preconceived notions.

Huh. He comes on here, posts, and then does not respond to post he finds inconvenient? Seems kind of goofy and a waste of time.

Cleon

16th October 2007, 08:34 AM

Huh. He comes on here, posts, and then does not respond to post he finds inconvenient? Seems kind of goofy and a waste of time.

Well, he's convinced that some people (who mysteriously never post) actually find his posts enlightening.

Tanstaafl

16th October 2007, 09:55 AM

I was just thinking -- I've heard countless people say they have gotten off drugs through Christianity but have never heard anyone say atheism has gotten them off drugs?

For a second there I thought we had a break-through here...

skeptifem

16th October 2007, 01:03 PM

He didnt respond to my posts either.

yeaahhh might wanna read the jefferson thread just to get familiar with doc's style...

DOC

16th October 2007, 07:50 PM

So "just a feeling" is good enough for you to not believe in Xenu. I feel pretty much the same way about your god and bible, although I do have other bases for my feelings including the texts from other religions (I have read several), and the distaste I feel for the systematic misogyny in the various christian sects...

Now, picture having the same "feeling" about your god that you do about Xenu. That's pretty much all there is to atheism. Really, that's all it is.

That's great -- and the more facts you have, then the more accurate your feeling will be.

That's why people shouldn't get so irritated when I put facts out there, even if a small percentage of them might not be completely accurate.

DOC

16th October 2007, 07:59 PM

yeaahhh might wanna read the jefferson thread just to get familiar with doc's style...

Yes, please read all 400 of my posts in here:

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=74960

and you'll get familiar with my style. I don't post much in there until post 61 and beyond, though.

Hokulele

16th October 2007, 08:04 PM

That's great -- and the more facts you have, then the more accurate your feeling will be.

Did you read any of my post? Would you care to address the facts about christianity I listed as reasons I don't believe any of it?

That's why people shouldn't get so irritated when I put facts out there, even if a small percentage of them might not be completely accurate.

Of the facts you have presented, which ones do you accept as being not completely accurate?

The reason I ask this is that you have been accused many times of being unable to grasp the points people are making here. It would be to your credit if you could list several of the things to which you have accepted corrections.

wollery

16th October 2007, 08:13 PM

That's great -- and the more facts you have, then the more accurate your feeling will be.

That's why people shouldn't get so irritated when I put facts out there, even if a very small percentage of them might not be completely inaccurate.There, corrected it for you.

Skeptic Guy

16th October 2007, 08:37 PM

joobz

16th October 2007, 08:42 PM

That's why people shouldn't get so irritated when I put facts out there, even if a small percentage of them might not be completely accurate.

That's like a guy in the middle of a typhoon saying it's a bit humid.

skeptifem

16th October 2007, 09:04 PM

I don't suppose there are any Cliff Notes?

read the first two pages.

autumn1971

16th October 2007, 09:16 PM

Darn, I wish I could remember the source, but I remember reading somewhere on the tubes a lawyer saying that in his days as a public defender he always awaited the moment when the accused, upon being found not guilty, gave a quick thanks to Jesus, whereupon the PD would lean over and quietly quip "Wrong Jew".

Hammer_of_Thor

17th October 2007, 06:29 AM

Yes, please read all 400 of my posts in here:

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=74960

and you'll get familiar with my style. I don't post much in there until post 61 and beyond, though.

Oh Yeah. I can hardly wait to read 400 posts of someone dodging and weaving around question after question. I have better and more fun things to do, like get a root canal. I am just surprised that you would waste your time on here if you only answer the questions that you want to answer. It is ok to say "I dont know".

uruk

17th October 2007, 11:09 AM

Irony

17th October 2007, 12:16 PM

I don't suppose there are any Cliff Notes?

Just read posts number 1,2, and 44. In 1 he makes some claims, in 2 Ducky tears those claims to shreds, and in 44 he makes another claim completely ignoring how soundly his previous post was crushed. He hasn't deviated from that formula since.

kmortis

17th October 2007, 01:22 PM

Just read posts number 1,2, and 44. In 1 he makes some claims, in 2 Ducky tears those claims to shreds, and in 44 he makes another claim completely ignoring how soundly his previous post was crushed. He hasn't deviated from that formula since.

Well, except to add in the paeans of "attack the messenger" and accusing dr. kitten, joobz, me and a few others of libeling him.

Unalienable

17th October 2007, 01:26 PM

I was just thinking -- I've heard countless people say they have gotten off drugs through Christianity but have never heard anyone say atheism has gotten them off drugs?

If I ever get off drugs, I'll let you know!

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y161/littleluckyfish/dennis-morris-bob-marley-spliff.jpg

Darth Rotor

17th October 2007, 02:15 PM

I know I got to this thread way late but I wanted to address the OP.
I was raised Roman Catholic and later shifted to agnosticizm. I am still an agnostic.
I used illegal drugs when I was younger and quit drugs for totaly secular reasons.
Religeon was not involved at all in my decision or process in getting off drugs or staying away from them.

Heck I don't even drink alcohol or caffine or nicotine. (I'm not a health nut, but I am a hypertention sufferer)

Although I am still hooked on pornography.

One vice at a time, One vice at a time.
I agree with your last line. Eat the elephant one bite at a time.

As to a few other bits in your post, I am not sure where you are from.

FYI, and for future reference:

agnosticism
totally
Religion
caffeine
hypertension

Bless you, uruk, you spelled pornography correctly, you are one of us. :)

That last word brings me back to page two of this thread, and the reason I chose to post at all:

Why did we stop talking about Miss Anthrope's magnificent Boobies, Dee Dee, and their superpowers? The value has been leached from this thread, and I, for one, demand restitution. :mad:

DR

Tanstaafl

17th October 2007, 02:30 PM

AudioFreak

17th October 2007, 02:40 PM

Would the presentation of such evidence result in a free lunch?

uruk

17th October 2007, 02:54 PM

I agree with your last line. Eat the elephant one bite at a time.

As to a few other bits in your post, I am not sure where you are from.

FYI, and for future reference:

agnosticism
totally
Religion
caffeine
hypertension

Bless you, uruk, you spelled pornography correctly, you are one of us. :)

That last word brings me back to page two of this thread, and the reason I chose to post at all:

Why did we stop talking about Miss Anthrope's magnificent Boobies, Dee Dee, and their superpowers? The value has been leached from this thread, and I, for one, demand restitution. :mad:

DR

Sorry, Chronic misspelling is a side effect of pornography addiction.

The keyboard gets sticky.

uruk

17th October 2007, 02:57 PM

Well, I have heard of Miss Anthrope's magnificent boobs, but I have seen no evidence yet. Yes, I have seen some hints of cleavage, but to accept that they are extraordinary, does require extraordinary evidence.

As a skeptic, I must, of course require evidence of both their existence and their magnificence, before I can even address the issue of their super powers.

Personaly I think the research requires massive amounts of first hand experiance and data gathering. Second hand too if they are a magnificient as they are purported to be.

Damn that sticky keyboard.

Tanstaafl

17th October 2007, 03:14 PM

Getting stickier all the time, is it? :D

kmortis

16th June 2010, 02:08 PM

That's great -- and the more facts you have, then the more accurate your feeling will be.

That's why people shouldn't get so irritated when I put facts out there, even if a small percentage of them might not be completely accurate.
Oh, carc, I forgot about this lil gem.

Sledge

16th June 2010, 02:09 PM

Ok, what's with all the necroing of DOC's old threads?

jond

16th June 2010, 02:09 PM

Bored today, Kmortis?

kmortis

16th June 2010, 02:20 PM

Bored today, Kmortis?
It wasn't all me.

I was just readin an old thread and wanted to comment. Then others started doing it. Now, it's a nationwide phenomenon. All the cool kids are doing it.

six7s

16th June 2010, 06:33 PM

That's why people shouldn't get so irritated when I put facts out thereIf anything is irritating it's your persistent, remorseless lying...

Facts - y'know... the verifiable kind - only irritate those who are determined to cling to their beliefs

That's why people shouldn't get so irritated when I put facts out there, even if a small percentage of them might not be completely accurate.A small percentage?

:dl:

Since when is 'the overwhelming majority' small?

Face it DOC:Your beliefs are your mind-altering drug of choiceYou choose to spend your time swallowing your woo in such immense doses that you wouldn't recognise - let alone acknowledge - an "accurate" fact if it jumped up and bit you on the arse

That is merely pitiable

Alas, despite the concerted efforts of many, you not only persist in clinging to your wholly illogical delusions, you also endlessly regurgitate the same old crap you've been serving up from the outset of each and every one of your woo-riddled OPs

That is irritating

qayak

16th June 2010, 08:19 PM

I was just thinking -- I've heard countless people say they have gotten off drugs through christianity but have never heard anyone say atheism has gotten them off drugs?

Atheism won't get you off drugs. Atheism won't get you anything except a non-belief in sky daddies and other supernaturalsilly beings.

On the other hand, people also claim christianity has turned their life around . . . the prisons are full of such people with a large percentage sitting on death row.

What I find is that the people who make these claims are attention whores who want the attention without making it seem they want the attention. The reasoning goes something like, "HEY!!! LOOK AT ME! I want you to pat me on the back for doing something everyone else just does without fanfare but it isn't me I want you to notice, it's this great being/organization . . . well, yeah, go ahead look at me and pat me on the back and give me a cake and a medal although it was The Big Guy that really did it . . . did I mention how great I am? I did? Oh, well just in case I didn't . . . LOOK HOW REALLY, REALLY GREAT I AM!"

Olowkow

16th June 2010, 09:26 PM

Why can't atheists come up with cool sayings like:

THE POWER OF ATHEISM
COMING SOON TO A THEATER NEAR YOU

Vic Vega

16th June 2010, 09:31 PM

Why can't atheists come up with cool sayings like:

THE POWER OF ATHEISM
COMING SOON TO A THEATER NEAR YOU

I think one just did...

Is DOC still around? I haven't seen a new and ridiculous thread started by him in a long time.

kmortis

16th June 2010, 09:59 PM

I think one just did...

Is DOC still around? I haven't seen a new and ridiculous thread started by him in a long time.

Well, other than the two he started about China. One in Econ about suicidal factory workers and the other in computers about Internet addiction. Other than those two, he hasn't started anything in a while.

GrandMasterFox

16th June 2010, 11:11 PM

I know it's pointless to debate a two year old thread, but since you brought it up anway...

On the other hand, people also claim christianity has turned their life around . . . the prisons are full of such people with a large percentage sitting on death row.

Not just that. There is a lot more "saved by christ" garbage going around then you think. While I am fully aware that I am no expert, my guess would be that it is partly due to "AA" and its ilk.

Since this absurd practice is the most common one people refer to when it comes to issues like drugs, alchohol etc and it is a religious brainwashing at best, is it any surprise that people keep thinking that christianity saved them?

Puppycow

17th June 2010, 12:54 AM

I'm an atheist who has gotten off drugs.

I quit smoking.

I attribute this to the power of atheism.

Because I don't believe in an afterlife, I want this one to be as long and as healthy as possible.

Xephyr

17th June 2010, 04:18 AM

I know it's pointless to debate a two year old thread, but since you brought it up anway...

Not just that. There is a lot more "saved by christ" garbage going around then you think. While I am fully aware that I am no expert, my guess would be that it is partly due to "AA" and its ilk.

Since this absurd practice is the most common one people refer to when it comes to issues like drugs, alchohol etc and it is a religious brainwashing at best, is it any surprise that people keep thinking that christianity saved them?

Or maybe it's just that drunks et al are attracted to religion... like flies to **** ?

jond

17th June 2010, 05:47 AM

It wasn't all me.

I was just readin an old thread and wanted to comment. Then others started doing it. Now, it's a nationwide phenomenon. All the cool kids are doing it.

Well, it's nice seeing DOC's Greatest Hits on display. After all, now all of his posts are out here for everyone to see.

skip

17th June 2010, 06:30 AM

I was just thinking -- I've heard countless people say they have gotten off drugs through Christianity but have never heard anyone say atheism has gotten them off drugs?

I don’t know if it’s been said yet. I haven’t been through the whole thread, But the first name that comes to Mind is George Carlin..

Naddig74

17th June 2010, 06:34 AM

I've got off drugs through the power of wanting to see my daughter.

GrandMasterFox

17th June 2010, 07:24 AM

Or maybe it's just that drunks et al are attracted to religion... like flies to **** ?

Quite possible. I'm not denying that. But if I recall from the old Penn and Teller show about AA, they said that according to the records from AA, only 5% of the people stick with the program.

That would mean that 95% of the people either aren't saved or aren't saved by Christ.

Kogloron

17th June 2010, 07:51 AM

I quit smoking... It didn't happen from any divine intervention, it didn't happen because Atheists have power. It happened because I love my wife more then I loved smoking. End of story.
I'm gonna have to say that overall the statistics stand as this:
People who quit drugs from the power of Christ - Zero
People who quit drugs from the power of Atheism - Zero

Let me give you some credible sources on how people quit something:
Peer pressure, will power, death, self-preservence, lack of funds, probably more
Christ falls under "will power"

wolfgirl

17th June 2010, 11:58 AM

Several years ago, we were looking into possible treatment for our son, who we feared had a drinking problem (still not completely sure he doesn't, but he seems to be doing okay). We wanted something secular and non-12-step. I found this group, Secular Organizations for Sobriety:

http://www.sossobriety.org/

For every person that uses religion to save themselves from addition, who knows how many use other methods that have nothing to do with religion, ranging from simple self-help to medical treatment. Religion doesn't save anyone, it just provides the means that the person needs to do it themselves.