Ritalin in Neurotypical Children

[ponderingturtle]

In the recent Autism thread there where statements made about the response of children with ADD to Ritalin differing from neurotypical children. The idea is that children with ADD find the stimulant calming while neurotypical children would not be calmed by a stimulant.

As some of the more medically sophisticated posters have not responded to this question, I am asking it in its own thread.

So what is the evidence for this claim and does it hold?

[Alareth]

All I know is I took ritalin like candy as a child. It's effects we ...

OOOOOOOOO!!!! Shiny!!!!

[Pipirr]

It's a good question. I'd heard that the reaction to ritalin can be diagnostic of ADD in and of itself. Neurotypical individuals get a kick out of it, whereas ADD individuals see improvements in attention etc.

No link I'm afraid, as I literally heard it in conversation, and as a general rule people don't cite when they talk...

[Slimething]

I have two sons and both of then have been diagnosed with ADHD. I once questioned one of the treating psychiatrists whether or not there was a sure-fire diagnostic for ADD or ADHD and he told me there was not. He told me that Ritalin was used to control the randomness of brain activity, not its total activity and that anyone taking Ritalin would be able to think more clearly but the side-effects of the drug were prohibitive of that type of activity.

I have no citation on the above either, sorry, and I'm at work and don't have the time to do the research. Maybe later.

[JoeEllison]

It's a good question. I'd heard that the reaction to ritalin can be diagnostic of ADD in and of itself. Neurotypical individuals get a kick out of it, whereas ADD individuals see improvements in attention etc.

No link I'm afraid, as I literally heard it in conversation, and as a general rule people don't cite when they talk...That's not my exact understanding of it... but, often, that is at least part of the diagnostic toolkit that they have to work with.

I DO know a few people with "issues" that are being treated with different sorts of drugs, and there is always sort of a "trial and error" phase with the drugs, to see which ones have the best effect with the least side effects.

[ponderingturtle]

I have two sons and both of then have been diagnosed with ADHD. I once questioned one of the treating psychiatrists whether or not there was a sure-fire diagnostic for ADD or ADHD and he told me there was not. He told me that Ritalin was used to control the randomness of brain activity, not its total activity and that anyone taking Ritalin would be able to think more clearly but the side-effects of the drug were prohibitive of that type of activity.


I am finding that last sentance unclear, could you please clarify?

[nails3jesus0]

from what i know its calming to kids who have the hyperactivity along with attention problems(adhd instead of just add). kids who just have add concentrate better on ritalin but have some of the responses regular people do to the drugs, but its still not quite the same experience. im not an expert and this is based on what medical proffessionals have told me.


I have two sons and both of then have been diagnosed with ADHD. I once questioned one of the treating psychiatrists whether or not there was a sure-fire diagnostic for ADD or ADHD and he told me there was not.

its as 'sure fire' as any other dsm criteria diagnosis(outside of ones with physical manifestations which isnt very many). meaning its not like a tumor where you can physically see whats wrong (although there are some brain scan technologies that can aid a add/adhd diagnosis), but observed behavior can fit the criteria, and most of the dsm criterias for mental illnesses are pretty definate. the most important criteria for most mental illnesses is that it interferes with the persons life, and add/adhd usually does.

about add/adhd diagnosis- i do know they are changing the diagnostic criteria due to boys being over diagnosed and girls being underdiagnosed. i guess the samples used to create the diagnostic criteria was 75% or more boys and so the current dsm definition has gender role bias. i agree based on being in school when add medication became prevalent for children.

[Nick73]

OK let me start by saying im not an expert

BUT

IIRC Ritalin (like caffeine) is an adenosine receptor antagonist. That means that it sits in the receptor and stops other melcules (adenosine in this case) having an effect.

Now in most cells adenosine acts to reduce the 'activation' of a cell, in otherwords adenosine is inhibitory...generally. Thats why it (like caffeine) is classed as a stimulant because in most cells the blocking action prevents this calming effect.

Now there are different types of adenosine receptor. Most, act as described above. some have the opposite effect and are stimulatory. These tend to be found in parts of the brain. It is thought that kids with ADHD have too many (over expression) of these types of receptors in the brain. As a result there are too many adenosine - receptor interactions an these parts of the brain are over stimulated. In these areas an adenosine antagonist will help reduce the increased activation of the cells.

interestingly caffeine and nicoteine have similar properties. And guess what lots of kids with ADHD drink coffee and smoke. evidence of self medication...well the juries out, some of them may just have crap parents!!


Anyway, Ive tried to keep it as understandable as poss. and if anyone knows better Im happy to be corrected as Im not a pharma expert

Nick

[Slimething]

I am finding that last sentance unclear, could you please clarify?

Sure. Sorry to be so cryptic. The doc said that Ritalin stimulates the brain's activity in such a way as to normalize the brain activity of people with ADD/ADHD. That is, there are certain brain activities that are suppressed in ADD/ADHD sufferers and by stimulating the brain in toto the suppressed portions are able to influence the over-active pathways.

He said that anyone would do better on Ritalin so that Ritalin was not diagnostic in itself. However, the fact that ADD and ADHD sufferers could basically operate effectively with Ritalin, Adderal (sp) or other stimulants was a major indicator in favor of ADD and ADHD diagnosis. A doctor would not prescribe stimulants to someone who did not demonstrate the other characteristics of hyper-activity because the stimulants have considerable potential for harm. Not only do they suppress apetite but they could also mess with liver enzyme balance.

My kids had their blood drawn every three months when they first started on stimulants to make sure that they were not developing anemia and that their liver functions were unaltered. However, as the experience becomes less novel, the blood monitoring diminishes to once every year or two.

[kellyb]

He said that anyone would do better on Ritalin so that Ritalin was not diagnostic in itself.

That's basically what I read. (I was the one who made the comment that inspired this thread).

[Slimething]

its as 'sure fire' as any other dsm criteria diagnosis(outside of ones with physical manifestations which isnt very many). meaning its not like a tumor where you can physically see whats wrong (although there are some brain scan technologies that can aid a add/adhd diagnosis), but observed behavior can fit the criteria, and most of the dsm criterias for mental illnesses are pretty definate. the most important criteria for most mental illnesses is that it interferes with the persons life, and add/adhd usually does.

Agreed. To understand my request to the doctor, you must step into my shoes. I'm a chemist and there are only a few things in my science that are "maybes". I deal in a world of stuff that is or isn't.

So, here come these guys who tell me my perfect kids may have a mental dysfunction. So, I argue and they tell me that the diagnosis is not based on any one thing but on a system of behavioral characteristics. Then, they tell me they're going to put my kids on speed. A bit much for a parent with my type of wiring, I'm afraid.

Anyway, the docs were very kind and patient with me and explained as much as I could absorb. Of course, I supplemented this with a lot of reading and have absolutely no doubt that these guys were correct, after all. Still, I wish there were a way to diagnose different syndromes with a simple test but that is not in our toolchest yet.

I'm not ready to admit that ADD or ADHD are illnesses, though. I believe they are maladaptations to our current society. One of my older son's psychologists observed that these maladies have probably been with us since time imemorial and that, in hunter/gatherer systems, the ADD/ADHD traits were probably benefits, not deficits.

[kellyb]

I believe they are maladaptations to our current society. One of my older son's psychologists observed that these maladies have probably been with us since time imemorial and that, in hunter/gatherer systems, the ADD/ADHD traits were probably benefits, not deficits.

I've always kind of thought that back in the day when kids started (for example) helping with the family farm, or learning how to blacksmith with dad at a pretty young age, the ADD traits would have probably been really useful.

The school thing is relatively new in our history, after all.

[calebprime]

That's basically what I read. (I was the one who made the comment that inspired this thread).

that confirms my hunch.


Agreed. To understand my request to the doctor, you must step into my shoes. I'm a chemist and there are only a few things in my science that are "maybes". I deal in a world of stuff that is or isn't.

So, here come these guys who tell me my perfect kids may have a mental dysfunction. So, I argue and they tell me that the diagnosis is not based on any one thing but on a system of behavioral characteristics. Then, they tell me they're going to put my kids on speed. A bit much for a parent with my type of wiring, I'm afraid.

Anyway, the docs were very kind and patient with me and explained as much as I could absorb. Of course, I supplemented this with a lot of reading and have absolutely no doubt that these guys were correct, after all. Still, I wish there were a way to diagnose different syndromes with a simple test but that is not in our toolchest yet.

I'm not ready to admit that ADD or ADHD are illnesses, though. I believe they are maladaptations to our current society. One of my older son's psychologists observed that these maladies have probably been with us since time imemorial and that, in hunter/gatherer systems, the ADD/ADHD traits were probably benefits, not deficits.

We've avoided putting our 9-year old son on Ritalin, even though there's been some pressure from the school. But there's no way any doctor or psychiatrist would suggest putting him on Ritalin without our say-so.

For one thing, he has some tics (which come and go) and we don't want them to get worse.

But the main reason is that he doesn't want it. That may sound odd, but he's an equal partner. We know some kids who really resented being put on Ritalin.

We would send him to a school with lower pressure, but it's an hour's drive.

So he's been put in a class for students with mild disability, even though he's in many ways very bright. He's not literally bouncing off the walls or disrupting things. Actually his anxiety is a problem, more than anything.

I have no doubt that Ritalin would help his performance even though there's nothing really wrong with him. He just isn't the kind of kid who does what he's told. He does what he loves to do.

I don't have a lot of faith in the diagnostic ability of the schools, and now they're under a lot of pressure because of the MCAS. They teach to the test.

I would give him Ritalin, except he and my wife are both dead set against it. I think it's a reasonably safe drug. It's been around for a long time, and as far as I know, nothing horrible has emerged over the years.

But I'd be very surprised if it is diagnostic. Just as I would be surprised if caffeine is diagnostic. I would think most people perform better, temporarily, on stimulants, including improved concentration. But that's just what I've read somewhere...

The notion that he's anxious in response to some home situation or that we're rotten parents is a non-starter. What's different these days is the schools and the philosophy about medication.

[Slimething]

calebprime,

I agree with your approach. If your child's schooling is not suffering, there really is no reason to put him on any medications. That really is what drove us to agree to the Ritalin.

Like your son, my kids are very bright. Putting them in with educational settings with teachers trained to deal with "outliers" would have placed my kids at a disadvantage in their education. So, we had to choose between a wild (and I'm not joking) child who would have been placed in with the "slower" kids or an attentive-but-drugged kid who would someday be able to be mainstreamed into advanced-placement curricula.

If your child already has nervous tics, I would be a little warier of stimulant treatment because tics is one of the signs that the doctors tell you to watch for that signals an overdose. I would recommend that, if you feel that some remediation may be necessary, consult with a pediatric psychiatrist to see what they think and tell them "NO DRUGS". There are alternatives and schools are not the best sources of information on alternatives.

In any case, best of luck to you!

[ponderingturtle]

Agreed. To understand my request to the doctor, you must step into my shoes. I'm a chemist and there are only a few things in my science that are "maybes". I deal in a world of stuff that is or isn't.

So, here come these guys who tell me my perfect kids may have a mental dysfunction. So, I argue and they tell me that the diagnosis is not based on any one thing but on a system of behavioral characteristics. Then, they tell me they're going to put my kids on speed. A bit much for a parent with my type of wiring, I'm afraid.

Anyway, the docs were very kind and patient with me and explained as much as I could absorb. Of course, I supplemented this with a lot of reading and have absolutely no doubt that these guys were correct, after all. Still, I wish there were a way to diagnose different syndromes with a simple test but that is not in our toolchest yet.

I'm not ready to admit that ADD or ADHD are illnesses, though. I believe they are maladaptations to our current society. One of my older son's psychologists observed that these maladies have probably been with us since time imemorial and that, in hunter/gatherer systems, the ADD/ADHD traits were probably benefits, not deficits.

No one is saying that they are an illness, they are a disorder, in that they are a collection of symptoms that strongly correlate. But the issue should be if you will alleviate their symptoms with say cough medicine, why would you not alleviate their less physical symptoms?

[ponderingturtle]

I've always kind of thought that back in the day when kids started (for example) helping with the family farm, or learning how to blacksmith with dad at a pretty young age, the ADD traits would have probably been really useful.

The school thing is relatively new in our history, after all.

As someone with ADD and who is a blacksmith, I am not sure if ADHD would be that helpful.

[kellyb]

As someone with ADD and who is a blacksmith, I am not sure if ADHD would be that helpful.

I'm a blacksmith, too. (sort of...not very good yet)
:)

It would probably depend on the kind of work you're doing, I'd imagine. I don't see young kids in the past being the ones to do really complicated projects involving extremely specific measurements.

[ponderingturtle]

I'm a blacksmith, too. (sort of...not very good yet)
:)

It would probably depend on the kind of work you're doing, I'd imagine. I don't see young kids in the past being the ones to do really complicated projects involving extremely specific measurements.

It is that hyperactivity does not seem to lend itself to the process, and if you are thinking about real child work with blacksmithing you are looking at things like making nails for say 12 hours straight.

As for the blacksmithing well my parents made the mistake of saying I could have an anvil when I could pick one up. They forgot I was running in the 95% of hight and 99% of weight(stocky heavyset) so I was no problem at 13 being about 6' tall.

[ponderingturtle]

Here is the problem, some people have had profeshionals describe the reaction to ritalin as diagnostic, and others have had the same people classify it as not diagnostic.

I think if it helps the child that is all that counts, so if it provides a substantive benefit why are so many opposed to it?(many of those opposed are definitely strongly in the alt med camp as well)

[Slimething]

But the issue should be if you will alleviate their symptoms with say cough medicine, why would you not alleviate their less physical symptoms?

PT, I can only speak for myself but the two situations are not analogous in that you're trying to equat an acute and a chronic condition. If you have a child with a cough related to a transient disease, yeah, cough medicine is what you reach for. A couple of days on cough medicine administered per label directions won't hurt.

However, for psychological syndromes, you're dealing with much longer term treatment and side-effects cast a much larger shadow on your choice of drug and its dosage. When you take a medication for years, as opposed to days, even the impurities in the product become worrisome. Another concern of mine was that, by dosing my kids regularly, they would develop the misapprehension that happiness and success come from pills. Counterbalance that, though, with the specific observation from several experts that my kids have extraordinarily bad cases of the hyperactivity component.

I take a very conservative approach towards drugs as I have seen how powerful they can be. I would caution anyone thinking of chronic treatment for themselves or their kids to do the research required to detect unwanted effects from the specific medication used. I can't really stress that enough.

I'm not anti-drug. Far from it. I'm a chemist who is amazed by the benefits of modern pharmacology but also knows the tremendous harm that can come from misapplications.

[ponderingturtle]

PT, I can only speak for myself but the two situations are not analogous in that you're trying to equat an acute and a chronic condition. If you have a child with a cough related to a transient disease, yeah, cough medicine is what you reach for. A couple of days on cough medicine administered per label directions won't hurt.

Hard to say. Many medications are not tested on children and they do not respond like small adults to many medications. That is a reason why many hospitals do not recomend cough medicine for children.

However, for psychological syndromes, you're dealing with much longer term treatment and side-effects cast a much larger shadow on your choice of drug and its dosage. When you take a medication for years, as opposed to days, even the impurities in the product become worrisome. Another concern of mine was that, by dosing my kids regularly, they would develop the misapprehension that happiness and success come from pills. Counterbalance that, though, with the specific observation from several experts that my kids have extraordinarily bad cases of the hyperactivity component.

What impurities? Please be specific.

I take a very conservative approach towards drugs as I have seen how powerful they can be. I would caution anyone thinking of chronic treatment for themselves or their kids to do the research required to detect unwanted effects from the specific medication used. I can't really stress that enough.

I'm not anti-drug. Far from it. I'm a chemist who is amazed by the benefits of modern pharmacology but also knows the tremendous harm that can come from misapplications.

But you do seem to be against psychopharmacology.

[kellyb]

I don't think he can be too opposed to it if his own children are on the meds.

:confused:

[Slimething]

What impurities? Please be specific.

I don't know which impurities. That info is considered to be Confidential Business Information and is not disclosed to anyone except regulatory agencies such as the FDA. The FDA keeps a file of the toxicological effect of impurities vs their concentration and makes regulatory judgements thereon. Each different manufacturer of each active ingredient will have their own specific impurity spectrum so, unless you have the file in front of you, you don't know what impurities are in the meds you're taking.

My point was that, in a chronic situation, even the small stuff may have unwanted effects.

But you do seem to be against psychopharmacology.

No. I don't know what I wrote that gave you that impression.

[Dancing David]

In the recent Autism thread there where statements made about the response of children with ADD to Ritalin differing from neurotypical children. The idea is that children with ADD find the stimulant calming while neurotypical children would not be calmed by a stimulant.

As some of the more medically sophisticated posters have not responded to this question, I am asking it in its own thread.

So what is the evidence for this claim and does it hold?

Here is some from PUBMED, I didn't read the PDFs.



Responses to methylphenidate in Attention-Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder and normal children: update 2002.
J Atten Disord. 2002;6 Suppl 1:S57-60. Review.
PMID: 12685519 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Child Psychiatry Branch, National Institute of Mental Health, Bethesda, Maryland 20892-1600, USA. rapoport@helix.nih.gov
Since the positive effects of stimulants on disruptive behavior were described (Bradley & Bowen, 1941), further pediatric studyhas been limited almost exclusively to samples of hyperkinetic school-age children. Because these agents normally were viewed as arousing in their effects on the central nervous system, but were calming in their therapeutic effects on these children, stimulant effects on Attention Deficit Disorder (ADD) were interpreted as being 'paradoxical.' Investigation of effects in normal children and adolescents and in those with disorders unrelated to Attention-Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD), as well as in young adult samples, however, indicate that stimulants appear to have similar behavioral effects in normal and in hyperactive children.This brief report is an update (as of August 2002) on studies of stimulants in ADHD and normal children, with particular focus on MPH.
PMID: 12685519 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Methylphenidate slows reactions of children with attention deficit disorder during and after an error.
J Abnorm Child Psychol. 1996 Oct;24(5):633-50.
PMID: 8956088 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

A Sternberg memory search task was administered under placebo and methylphenidate to 42 children with cross-situational attention deficit disorder (ADD), 31 children with cross-situational ADD plus oppositional features, and 25 patients with marginal ADD. Overall, stimulant medication enhanced accuracy and speed. In addition, patients reacted faster on correct responses not preceded by an error than on errors (especially false alarms) or on correct responses following an error. The slowness during error reactions may reflect decreased confidence or confusion during stimulus classification. This uncertainty may also lead subjects to respond with greater caution, hence more slowly, on correct responses following errors. Notably, methylphenidate increased the slowing of reactions on error trials as well as on correct reactions following an error. Stimulant medication may augment subjects' persistence when they are uncertain or confused, thereby heightening caution and promoting accuracy on succeeding trials. Consistent with previous reports of the generality of enhancement of performance by stimulant medication, the impact of methylphenidate was comparable for the three subtypes of ADD studied.
PMID: 8956088 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

[frank462]

Here is a link to a short debate on the use of Ritalin.

The Debate of Ritalin: Point & Counterpoint (http://www.presidioinc.com/newsletter/99newsarchive/99julyaug_feature.htm)

Here is my personal opinion.
Ritalin is over prescribed because it is a win, win, win, win, lose situation.
Let me explain.

Win: The doctors win. More patients = more money.
Win: The pharmaceutical companies win. Sell more Ritalin = more profits.
Win: The schools win. More "special needs" students = more federal money.
Win: The parents. "I'm not really incompetent. My child has an illness."
Lose: The child. He is told, "You are defective and only drug use can make you normal."

[calebprime]

Here is a link to a short debate on the use of Ritalin.

The Debate of Ritalin: Point & Counterpoint (http://www.presidioinc.com/newsletter/99newsarchive/99julyaug_feature.htm)

...

thanks for the link.

The argument on the pro side seems to involve some hand-waving. In particular, mentioning MRIs. MRIs are being used to justify all kinds of things without real evidence. "Look, here's a brain."

The real bottom line is whether the treatment works. Ritalin does work. Then, what are the long-term effects? Unknown, I think.
Has this drug been around long enough to know about side-effects? In the case of Ritalin, yes.

this paragraphs caught my attention, and I'm pasting it in, here:

the 'pro' Ritalin side:

"...Stimulant medication is so effective that a parent with a child diagnosed with ADHD should receive an explanation if the clinician's judgement is not to prescribe medication. Appropriate considerations for not opting for Ritalin and similar drugs include a history of tic or Tourette's disorder, the presence of a thought disorder, significant resistance to such medications in the patient or family or insufficient severity of the symptoms or dysfunction Other classes of drugs, such as antidepressants, can be effective and used when there is concern about the use of a stimulant medication or when side effects occur.

It's that last sentence that seems ominous to me. I would much, much, much sooner give my kid Ritalin than an antidepressant. With an antidepressant, you really are talking about permanently changing a child's brain chemistry. With Ritalin, at least it washes out quickly. And the newer antidepressants haven't been around long enough to know what the long-term effects are. No way would I give a kid an SSRI. Or any other antidepressant, unless the situation was absolutely dire. Even then, I'd try with all my might to change the situation, first.

[ponderingturtle]

I don't know which impurities. That info is considered to be Confidential Business Information and is not disclosed to anyone except regulatory agencies such as the FDA. The FDA keeps a file of the toxicological effect of impurities vs their concentration and makes regulatory judgements thereon. Each different manufacturer of each active ingredient will have their own specific impurity spectrum so, unless you have the file in front of you, you don't know what impurities are in the meds you're taking.

This is true of everything you eat, and most of that is not throughly tested like medications are.

[ponderingturtle]

Here is a link to a short debate on the use of Ritalin.

The Debate of Ritalin: Point & Counterpoint (http://www.presidioinc.com/newsletter/99newsarchive/99julyaug_feature.htm)

Here is my personal opinion.
Ritalin is over prescribed because it is a win, win, win, win, lose situation.
Let me explain.

Win: The doctors win. More patients = more money.
Win: The pharmaceutical companies win. Sell more Ritalin = more profits.
Win: The schools win. More "special needs" students = more federal money.
Win: The parents. "I'm not really incompetent. My child has an illness."
Lose: The child. He is told, "You are defective and only drug use can make you normal."

So getting a better education is of no merit to a child then?

[Slimething]

Here is a link to a short debate on the use of Ritalin.

The Debate of Ritalin: Point & Counterpoint (http://www.presidioinc.com/newsletter/99newsarchive/99julyaug_feature.htm)

Here is my personal opinion.
Ritalin is over prescribed because it is a win, win, win, win, lose situation.
Let me explain.

Win: The doctors win. More patients = more money.
Win: The pharmaceutical companies win. Sell more Ritalin = more profits.
Win: The schools win. More "special needs" students = more federal money.
Win: The parents. "I'm not really incompetent. My child has an illness."
Lose: The child. He is told, "You are defective and only drug use can make you normal."

frank462, you really need to do more research before deciding that money is what is motivating this industry. You, of course, know that the CDC keeps tabs on how much hyperactivity-related medication is prescribed by each MD in the US and, if said rate deviates from the recognized occurence of hyperactivity, that MD is investigated. You did know that, of course.

Funny also that, as you claim that the schools collude in this program, that the rate of occurence of ADD and ADHD is as low as it is.

Funny also how it's people without afflicted children who believe this crap.

Just my opinion.

[Slimething]

This is true of everything you eat, and most of that is not throughly tested like medications are.

Very true, PT. Here, though, you encounter the odd psychological respsonse of humans to assumed risk vs involuntary risk. For example, a person driving a car to a rally against nuclear energy. If you compare the risk that person took in merely driving (huge risk) to the risk of a nuclear plant in their community (negligible risk), their decision makes no sense whatsoever. I'm certainly not immune to that kind of emotional overreaction, especially where my kids are involved. :blush:

[Dancing David]

Here is a link to a short debate on the use of Ritalin.

The Debate of Ritalin: Point & Counterpoint (http://www.presidioinc.com/newsletter/99newsarchive/99julyaug_feature.htm)

Here is my personal opinion.
Ritalin is over prescribed because it is a win, win, win, win, lose situation.
Let me explain.

Win: The doctors win. More patients = more money.
Win: The pharmaceutical companies win. Sell more Ritalin = more profits.
Win: The schools win. More "special needs" students = more federal money.

Not so.

Win: The parents. "I'm not really incompetent. My child has an illness."

Nice herring is it pickled or red? Any evidence?

Lose: The child. He is told, "You are defective and only drug use can make you normal."

Shows how much you know, are you just ill informed or a bigot. many children with ADD learn non-medical strategies.

You are some sort of clown. Have you ever worked in a school or do you just suck up stupid thoughts from other people?

[casebro]

I think we used to beat our children into conformity. The only kids it didn't work on were those incapable of learning at all. One immediate whack will go a long ways towards teaching a kid that what he did was wrong headed. Children were to be seen, and not heard from. Children were raised to realise that society was a bigger force than the individual. Then along came Dr. Spock and parental permissiveness, and the next generation has all these ADD, Autism, other behavioral problems. So we used to have kids that paid attention in school, but had no self esteem. Now we have children who live in a self-centric world, but won't pay attention. I guess there was a trade off, but was it a net gain?

[Jeff Corey]

I think we used to beat our children into conformity. The only kids it didn't work on were those incapable of learning at all. One immediate whack will go a long ways towards teaching a kid that what he did was wrong headed. Children were to be seen, and not heard from. Children were raised to realise that society was a bigger force than the individual. Then along came Dr. Spock and parental permissiveness, and the next generation has all these ADD, Autism, other behavioral problems. So we used to have kids that paid attention in school, but had no self esteem. Now we have children who live in a self-centric world, but won't pay attention. I guess there was a trade off, but was it a net gain?
Keel haul the little bastards, that'll teach them to go all crazy on us. Why when I was a kid, when Dad got home from the mill, he would routinely thrash the lot of us as a "form of perventive medicine", as he called it.

[casebro]

Keel haul the little bastards, that'll teach them to go all crazy on us. Why when I was a kid, when Dad got home from the mill, he would routinely thrash the lot of us as a "form of perventive medicine", as he called it.

And if he didn't know why, you did.

There are extremes in everything. Discipline and abuse are two different things.

But the gist of my concept is whether behavioral problems have gotten worse, are they constant (but only coming out more now) or have we changed our methods of childrearing in such a way that we now exacerbate them?

Did/does "tough love" work?

[kellyb]

Did/does "tough love" work?

Most of the research I've seen indicates that in the long run, it makes kids sneakier, simply afraid of being caught, and contributes to agressive behavior towards other children.

[Dancing David]

I think we used to beat our children into conformity. The only kids it didn't work on were those incapable of learning at all. One immediate whack will go a long ways towards teaching a kid that what he did was wrong headed. Children were to be seen, and not heard from. Children were raised to realise that society was a bigger force than the individual. Then along came Dr. Spock and parental permissiveness, and the next generation has all these ADD, Autism, other behavioral problems. So we used to have kids that paid attention in school, but had no self esteem. Now we have children who live in a self-centric world, but won't pay attention. I guess there was a trade off, but was it a net gain?

Have you actualy read Spock's book, before we debate, I want to know the basis of your facts.

I am so sure that autism is caused by the parents, thanks for a reversion to Freud.

[Dancing David]

The orblem is that parents insist on doing one thing and tell their kids to do another. there are kids with ADD and they have a hard time maintaining focus in a boring school setting. But until we throw money at schools we will continue with the industrial approach to education.

there are some fine students who don't take medication, but they have to be reminded to keep their chatter to a dull whisper, rather than a disruptive roar.

It is usually the parents pushing for medication. If your child has anxiety ADD drugs are not the way to go.

the oethr problem is the 'chaotic' homelife, it has a very high impact upon learning.

[Jeff Corey]

Have you actualy read Spock's book, before we debate, I want to know the basis of your facts.

I am so sure that autism is caused by the parents, thanks for a reversion to Freud.
Close, it was Bruno Bettleheim, a Freudian, who insisted it was "refrigerator mothers" who caused autism.

[Dancing David]

Close, it was Bruno Bettleheim, a Freudian, who insisted it was "refrigerator mothers" who caused autism.

I shouldn't blame Sigmund for everything his followers did.