Against the word ‘natural’ and its misuse

[Puppycow]

I’ve come to the conclusion that the word ‘natural’ is used far too often is usually meaningless.
On a podcast today I heard the following assertion, which is from a controversial paper authored by Dr. James W. Holsinger Jr. (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/18/AR2007071802317.html), the current nominee for surgeon general of the US:

“Homosexuality is unnatural and unhealthy.”

I was considering the truth of this assertion when it occurred to me that ‘unnatural’ is an essentially meaningless word in this context. First of all, is a human behavior such as driving a car ‘natural’ or ‘unnatural’? Who cares? It never occurs to anyone to ask the question, because it is a pointless meaningless question to ask. The consequences of driving a car or engaging in certain sexual activities might be unhealthy, or they might not. It depends on whether sufficient precautions are taken. But certainly homosexual behavior is more ‘natural’ than driving a car because other species also engage in it.

‘Natural’ foods and supplements are another thing. (‘Organic’ is another dubious word: What exactly does it mean, anyway?) There are plenty of ‘natural’ plants, animals and other substances that are nonetheless deadly poisons. Who cares if something is ‘natural’? There are better words like ‘unprocessed’ to describe healthy food.

Conversely ‘artificial’ seems to connote something bad. Maybe some artificial things are bad for you, but not because they are ‘artificial.’

Another phrase I hate: "as nature intended." Oh really? Who knows what 'nature' intended or indeed if 'nature' intended anything at all? There's more than one way to skin a cat, as they say.

[Complexity]

:wave1

Thanks!

[jimtron]

I agree. "Natural" doesn't mean much, and it's not necessarily a good thing. When people say that homosexuality isn't "natural" behavior, it makes me think of violence. Humans and animals have been regularly hurting each other since forever--surely violence is natural. So I guess violence is good. Cool!

[Hokulele]

I would say that on average, homosexual behavior is more healthy than driving a car (http://www-fars.nhtsa.dot.gov/)!

[Wings]

Hey, can we throw in the word random here if we're touting misused and misapplied words?

And, I agree Hokuele, at least they get their oil changed more than my car!

Honestly though, what is natural behavior? I mean, can a creature act in a way that isn't natural?

[Puppycow]

I agree. "Natural" doesn't mean much, and it's not necessarily a good thing. When people say that homosexuality isn't "natural" behavior, it makes me think of violence. Humans and animals have been regularly hurting each other since forever--surely violence is natural. So I guess violence is good. Cool!

Indeed. Often 'nature' is something we need to overcome. It turns out that, generally speaking, more primitive societies are more violent. Only crazy luddites like the unabomber would suggest that we just let our instincts take over and go back to living like beasts, although it would presumably be a very 'natural' lifestyle.

[Puppycow]

Hey, can we throw in the word random here if we're touting misused and misapplied words?

And, I agree Hokuele, at least they get their oil changed more than my car!

Honestly though, what is natural behavior? I mean, can a creature act in a way that isn't natural?

What sorts of uses of the word random are you referring too? Presumably the use by creationists to call evolution 'random'?

And, yes, whatever humans do, is 'natural' for human behaviour.

[Wings]

Bingo.

[Miss Anthrope]

I don't have anything sage to add, so I'll simply say "great thread!". I couldn't agree more.

[Wings]

Another phrase I hate: "as nature intended." Oh really? Who knows what 'nature' intended or indeed if 'nature' intended anything at all? There's more than one way to skin a cat, as they say.

Hey, if we're natural creatures, then don't we qualify as part of "nature" when they speak of "how nature intended"? I mean, how can they say what we do isn't a part of what "nature intended".

I'm probably being pedantic, but I just think it's kind of funny really. I always love it when people bring that comment up.

[Capsid]

I've had conversatons with woo types who think that the human body deals with synthetic stuff differently to natural stuff. So how would it know that? Does this synthetic stuff have a little S tag hanging on it?

[Puppycow]

I've had conversatons with woo types who think that the human body deals with synthetic stuff differently to natural stuff. So how would it know that? Does this synthetic stuff have a little S tag hanging on it?

I suppose the body does deal with different chemicals in different ways. However the same chemical would be treated the same way whether it occurs 'naturally' or 'synthetically.' There has to be an actual difference before the body can recognize a difference.

[Puppycow]

Another meaningless use of the word 'natural' is so-called 'natural rights.'
'Rights' are an entirely human-concieved concept, therefore they cannot be 'natural' and in any case, who would enforce 'natural rights'?

In practice, 'rights' are meaningless abstractions without an enforcer. The universe simply isn't fair.

"The rain it raineth on the just
And on the unjust fella.
But chiefly on the just because
The unjust steals the just's umbrella."

Ergo, no 'natural' rights. We humans can agree to have 'rights' and to respect each other's but don't be silly by calling them 'natural.'

[Beausoleil]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalistic_fallacy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_nature

[phildonnia]

I would say that on average, homosexual behavior is more healthy than driving a car (http://www-fars.nhtsa.dot.gov/)!

... and more natural.

[JoeTheJuggler]

Ditto also me too.

I'd even go further that if you define "natural" in an honest way (something like "what happens in nature"), then the word "supernatural" is also meaningles--or it has a meaning similar to "imagined" or "fictional" or even "unreal".

About "natural" vs "artificial" chemicals: as pointed out, the same molecules do the same thing no matter what their origin. With flavors. though, the "natural" flavor usually comes from a whole bunch of different molecules, whereas "artificial" flavors are usually many copies of fewer different molecules. So that artificially banana flavored candy tastes like a sort of caricature of what a real banana tastes like--greatly exaggerating a couple of distinctive features of that taste.

[Ohmer]

‘Natural’ foods and supplements are another thing. (‘Organic’ is another dubious word: What exactly does it mean, anyway?) There are plenty of ‘natural’ plants, animals and other substances that are nonetheless deadly poisons. Who cares if something is ‘natural’? There are better words like ‘unprocessed’ to describe healthy food.

Conversely ‘artificial’ seems to connote something bad. Maybe some artificial things are bad for you, but not because they are ‘artificial.’

Some of my quips:


That "artificial" preservative is there to prevent you from getting "all natural" Botulism.

Hosesh:)t is all natural to. I'm not going to eat it. (If only I could convince my dogs)

I prefer my food to be supernatural.

I use these when I don't feel like having a calm rational argument. It quickly gets my point across and generally shuts people up.

[jimtron]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalistic_fallacy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_nature

Good articles. And I found another good one (http://www.cancer.org/docroot/ETO/content/ETO_5_3x_How_to_Know_What_Is_Safe_Choosing_and_Usi ng_Dietary_Supplements.asp) on supplements, linked from the second article above.

[Miss Anthrope]

Some of my quips:

That "artificial" preservative is there to prevent you from getting "all natural" Botulism.
Hosesh:)t is all natural to. I'm not going to eat it. (If only I could convince my dogs)
I prefer my food to be supernatural.I use these when I don't feel like having a calm rational argument. It quickly gets my point across and generally shuts people up.

Cyanide is found naturally. Snake venom is natural. How many fatally poisonous plants are in my back yard? I checked, and stopped counting after five.

People are funny.

[kerikiwi]

“Homosexuality is unnatural and unhealthy.”


It would be fair to replace 'unnatural' with 'abnormal' but then people tend to regard 'normal' as good and 'abnormal' as bad, when it is simply abnormal.
It is abnormal to be able to outrun a lion, but certainly desirable.
It is normal to be unable to outrun a lion ...

Natural is not good and not bad. Natural doesn't give a toss.

[Ohmer]

Cyanide is found naturally. Snake venom is natural. How many fatally poisonous plants are in my back yard? I checked, and stopped counting after five.

People are funny.

I recall reading something here a while ago about a group of biochemist who pondered if there was anything they would be afraid to ingest at 6X homeopathic dilution. The only things they came up with were naturally occurring poisons. I think Rolfe was involved. I remember that tetrodotoxin (http://www.chm.bris.ac.uk/motm/ttx/ttx.htm) made the list. Evolution is better at designing poisons than we are. (http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/biowarfare_01)

[Puppycow]

It would be fair to replace 'unnatural' with 'abnormal' but then people tend to regard 'normal' as good and 'abnormal' as bad, when it is simply abnormal.
It is abnormal to be able to outrun a lion, but certainly desirable.
It is normal to be unable to outrun a lion ...

Natural is not good and not bad. Natural doesn't give a toss.

'Abnormal' is a kind of vague word, too, and often not particularly useful. At least in science.
I think it might actually be less 'abnormal' than one might think. Reliability of data in these areas is a subject of controversy but Kinsey found that (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_sexual_orientation) "37% of men in the U.S. had achieved orgasm through contact with another male after adolescence."

Two of the most famous studies of the demographics of human sexual orientation were Dr. Alfred Kinsey's Sexual Behavior in the Human Male (1948) and Sexual Behavior in the Human Female (1953). These studies used a seven-point spectrum to define sexual behavior, from 0 for completely heterosexual, to 6 for completely homosexual. Kinsey concluded that all but a small percentage of the population were to one degree or another bisexual (falling on the scale from 1 to 5). He also reported that 37% of men in the U.S. had achieved orgasm through contact with another male after adolescence.

His results, however, have been disputed, especially in 1954 by a team consisting of John Tukey, Frederick Mosteller and William G. Cochran, who stated much of Kinsey's work was based on convenience samples rather than random samples, and thus would have been vulnerable to bias.[2]

Paul Gebhard, Kinsey's successor as director of the Kinsey Institute for Sex Research, dedicated years to reviewing the Kinsey data and culling its purported contaminants. In 1979, Gebhard (with Alan B. Johnson) concluded that none of Kinsey's original estimates were significantly affected by the perceived bias, finding that 36.4% of men had engaged in both heterosexual and homosexual activities, as opposed to Kinsey's 37%.

[tracer]

There are better words like ‘unprocessed’ to describe healthy food.
I assume you mean, "There are better words like ‘unprocessed’ to describe healthy food."

Processing does not necessarily mean a reduction in the healthful qualities of foodstuffs. The real objection to processed food is that it doesn't taste the same as unprocessed food; allegations about changes in the nutrient content are often grossly exaggerated.

[strathmeyer]

Whenever I hear someone say something about gay marriage being unnatural, all I can think is, "You mean... like roads?"

Not to mention that marriage itself is unnatural.

[Miss Anthrope]

Not to mention that marriage itself is unnatural.

Not necessarily. Monogamy, observably not natural. Long term mating (with extra-pair coupling usually occurring), depends on the critter.

[steve s]

Cyanide is found naturally.

As is arsenic.

Can I throw another word that has lost it's meaning into the mix? The word theory has become synonymous with opinion. Whenever I hear someone say "Well my theory is...." I always ask if they've tested it. When they say no, I tell them it isn't a theory.

Steve S.

[Dogdoctor]

Biological systems are natural so what can be unatural about them?