Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows

[Mobyseven]

I will say only this: If you haven't read it yet, do so. Just finished the book and it is amazing.

[andyandy]

I will say only this: If you haven't read it yet, do so. Just finished the book and it is amazing.

the question is, how the flip have you read it already?

Are you a queue all night, read all in one go potter nut? :)

How's my prediction, is Voldermort Harry's father? Culminating in a star-wars esque finale? :D

[Zep]

Would that make Hermoine his sister? Or perhaps his mother? :boggled:

[slingblade]

I will say only this: If you haven't read it yet, do so. Just finished the book and it is amazing.

Seconded, wholeheartedly. Wow. What a ride.

[slingblade]

the question is, how the flip have you read it already?

Are you a queue all night, read all in one go potter nut? :)

How's my prediction, is Voldermort Harry's father? Culminating in a star-wars esque finale? :D


you really want to know?Really?Okay, then... No, he is not.

[Mobyseven]

the question is, how the flip have you read it already?

Are you a queue all night, read all in one go potter nut? :)

Heh, actually no. I'm a travel to a different city, get the book after midday and then read without breaks at my normal pace potter nut. ;)

My normal pace is pretty fast...

[Z]

Well, here's the spoiler to end all spoilers...

You really want to know?
GO READ THE BOOK!

[LostAngeles]

Hot freaking damn. I got mine at about 9AM PDT and finished about five minutes ago.
There really are spoilers in the next box. Consider yourself warned.

After I finished, I had to go back and check out the prophecy again, because DAMN Neville, you are one bad mother-shut-yo-mouth.

I really, really kept out hope that Lupin and Tonks were just injured and knocked out.

That was amazing...

Looks like everyone was right... But why... why did Hedwig have to die?

[LostAngeles]

So, does this mean that we can talk about

goat-loving

freely now?

I mean, it is a minor plot point...

[The Great Hairy One]

Finished it last night at 4am - the wife had first crack at it, so I only got my hands on it at 10pm.

I was surprised at how good it was, especially since I think books #4, #5 and #6 need some serious editing. Very well written, very tight, action mostly keeps moving. Excellent, excellent ending, although there are a huge number of unanswered questions.

If she does write a book #8, I hope it's set in the world, and only includes Harry and the rest as minor NPCs.

Cheers,
TGHO

[HawkeyeMD]

Got mine today from Amazon, read it straight through.

I was impressed by all except the very last bit. I hadn't much liked the last two or three books (I know, I know, don't bother flaming me). This one seemed better written, even though she is borrowing from every source under the sun (and why not?). Matter of fact, I found all except the very first one to be fairly forgettable.

I don't see where to make that spoiler thing, so I'll just say: LostAngeles?


:D :D :D :D :D

[Tricky]

Wow! What a show. Rowing is a bloody genius. I read and cried my way through it in less than twelve hours. Yes, all the important questions are answered. They were not always the answers I expected.

I'll be reading it again tomorrow to see if I missed something important.

[LostAngeles]

Got mine today from Amazon, read it straight through.

I was impressed by all except the very last bit. I hadn't much liked the last two or three books (I know, I know, don't bother flaming me). This one seemed better written, even though she is borrowing from every source under the sun (and why not?). Matter of fact, I found all except the very first one to be fairly forgettable.

I don't see where to make that spoiler thing, so I'll just say: LostAngeles?


:D :D :D :D :D

It's the same as [quote] but put and then close it the same way as you would with quote using the / before spoiler.

We're about to go see OotP and according to Wiki they left some things out

[spoiler]Like Mundungus Fletcher

How are they going to straighten that out without it feeling like Deus Ex Machina?

Also

I guess Sirius dies and Harry's just, "Ok." and there's no two-way mirror.

[Tricky]

I'm not kidding, this is a real spoiler.
seriously, if you don't want to know, stop reading now.
It will mess it up for you if you haven't read it.
Okay, here goes.
the part where Harry talks with Dumbledore in "heaven" is really contrived. It was little more than a device to answer a bunch of questions, as was the journey through Snapes pensive. Yes, I'm glad Rowling did it, but I can't say much for the device.

But it is a great book. Possibly her best. I'm still crying.

[Mobyseven]

If she does write a book #8, I hope it's set in the world, and only includes Harry and the rest as minor NPCs.

Real spoilers ahead! And I'm not going to go in for massive recursion like Tricky does - don't click if you don't want to know, dammit!

I believe that is one of the best things about this book - she had previously stated that she would not be writing another Harry Potter book, which of course got everyone all worried. The way she ended the book meant that there is really not much room for a Harry Potter sequel, because we already know where he will be a few years into the future. She can't write another Harry Potter book, but she didn't have to kill him off.

Also, I have a bit of a thing for Ginny. I mean, c'mon -she's a cute girl, even if she is fictional! :boxedin:

[Skeptic Guy]

Be quiet, be quiet, be quiet....we got it at midnight last night and I have been trying to get my turn at reading it...now my wife has it.

[TobiasTheViking]

I was accidentally at a party right next to a bookstore that sold the book. so i went to stand in line 10min before the shop opened to get it.. i didn't really intend to stand in line for it, but i had never tried it before, and i was right next to it, so i thought i would give it a go... :)

Then i continued getting even more drunk, came home 6 hours after i bought the book, slept for a very long time, and then after a few hours of being awake started reading the book... in one go... as it should be done.. :)

Just finished it.... damn the last chapter sucked...

I mean, i don't mind the idea, it was just the execution that i thought sucked.


Sure it is nice to see where will be some time down the road, but it can be done well, and it can be done.. well.. like this...

[fuelair]

Seconded, wholeheartedly. Wow. What a ride.
Congrats on getting a copy!!! Glad you didn't have to wait!!!:)

[fuelair]

So, does this mean that we can talk about

goat-loving

freely now?

I mean, it is a minor plot point...
But certainly important for someones' brother!!!

[fuelair]

Real spoilers ahead! And I'm not going to go in for massive recursion like Tricky does - don't click if you don't want to know, dammit!

I believe that is one of the best things about this book - she had previously stated that she would not be writing another Harry Potter book, which of course got everyone all worried. The way she ended the book meant that there is really not much room for a Harry Potter sequel, because we already know where he will be a few years into the future. She can't write another Harry Potter book, but she didn't have to kill him off.

Also, I have a bit of a thing for Ginny. I mean, c'mon -she's a cute girl, even if she is fictional! :boxedin: (refers to 2nd spoiler) In essence that's why I had figured out within the first 2 chapters of Book 2 that particular direction for the plot.

[fuelair]

I was accidentally at a party right next to a bookstore that sold the book. so i went to stand in line 10min before the shop opened to get it.. i didn't really intend to stand in line for it, but i had never tried it before, and i was right next to it, so i thought i would give it a go... :)

Then i continued getting even more drunk, came home 6 hours after i bought the book, slept for a very long time, and then after a few hours of being awake started reading the book... in one go... as it should be done.. :)

Just finished it.... damn the last chapter sucked...

I mean, i don't mind the idea, it was just the execution that i thought sucked.


Sure it is nice to see where will be some time down the road, but it can be done well, and it can be done.. well.. like this...It was a touch difficult to follow and did not answer a number of minor and one major question I had but at least it was done.

[LostAngeles]

Minor spoilers for OotP book and spoilers for Deathly Hallows. No recursive spoilers here. You're in this thread at your own risk.

So I just got back from the movie. It was easy to tell who in the theatre had read Deathly Hallows.

Since the goat in the Hog's Head pub brought on much laughter from several folks including me.

I thought that having read this book

Sirius's death wouldn't be as harsh. In fact, during the scene with the Black Family Tree, I thought it was all going to be ok.

Bulls%$#. Took a lot to not bawl my freaking eyes out in the theatre.

Hell, I almost cried seeing Hedwig.

So, we get home and my boyfriend asks, Hey, didn't Umbridge (VILE BITCH) end up loppy at the end of the book. Well, she was certainly traumatized somehow by the centaurs, but he thought she was in St. Mungo's, "where Neville's parent's live now," I said.

To which he started ripping on Neville.

I had to slap him. When you spend 2.5 hours envisioning the kid who plays Neville busting out the Sword of Gyrffindor and using it to lay down the smack, you don't talk s$#@ about Neville Longbottom.

Minorly, don't talk s*&% about Molly "Ellen Ripley" Weasly either.

No Two Way Mirror? Mundungus Fletcher? Evil, vile Kreacher? What The Merlin's Pants?

In retrospect on DH, if she hadn't set all of that up before forever, I'd call Deus Ex Machina.

[fuelair]

Minor spoilers for OotP book and spoilers for Deathly Hallows. No recursive spoilers here. You're in this thread at your own risk.

So I just got back from the movie. It was easy to tell who in the theatre had read Deathly Hallows.

Since the goat in the Hog's Head pub brought on much laughter from several folks including me.

I thought that having read this book

Sirius's death wouldn't be as harsh. In fact, during the scene with the Black Family Tree, I thought it was all going to be ok.

Bulls%$#. Took a lot to not bawl my freaking eyes out in the theatre.

Hell, I almost cried seeing Hedwig.

So, we get home and my boyfriend asks, Hey, didn't Umbridge (VILE BITCH) end up loppy at the end of the book. Well, she was certainly traumatized somehow by the centaurs, but he thought she was in St. Mungo's, "where Neville's parent's live now," I said.

To which he started ripping on Neville.

I had to slap him. When you spend 2.5 hours envisioning the kid who plays Neville busting out the Sword of Gyrffindor and using it to lay down the smack, you don't talk s$#@ about Neville Longbottom.

Minorly, don't talk s*&% about Molly "Ellen Ripley" Weasly either.

No Two Way Mirror? Mundungus Fletcher? Evil, vile Kreacher? What The Merlin's Pants?

In retrospect on DH, if she hadn't set all of that up before forever, I'd call Deus Ex Machina.

100% agreement on N and MW!!!

[Robaato]

Not that I mind, but how the heck did the sword go from Griphook's grubby little hands to the Sorting Hat? Was there any explanation of this other than the implied "well he needed it, so..."?

That's just a nitpick though. Generally, I enjoyed it, but I'm sad that it's over.

[Complexity]

I just finished it. Wonderful. Pity there won't be more.

I had guessed a few things correctly, but I wavered a lot while reading it.

My thanks to the author.

I heard recently that she doesn't actually have a middle name. They added the 'K.' because it sounded good.

I spent last week rereading books 5 and 6, saw the movie on Monday.

I'm happily all Pottered-out.

I'm going to start an Agatha Christie novel in a few...

[LostAngeles]

Not that I mind, but how the heck did the sword go from Griphook's grubby little hands to the Sorting Hat? Was there any explanation of this other than the implied "well he needed it, so..."?

That's just a nitpick though. Generally, I enjoyed it, but I'm sad that it's over.

Same way Harry pulled it out of the Sorting Hat in Book 2. They're truly Gryffindors.

[Zep]

Harry who?

[Tricky]

All right, I overdid it with the nested spoilers, but it is so soon after the book, I didn't want to give anything away. Really though, anybody who reads this thread is obviously asking to be have it spoiled for them. Still...Yeah, we all knew Neville would have an important part to play, but I was still surprised at what part it was. And oh yeah, dont f*$! with Mrs. Weasely either.

The book was full of surprises though. For one thing, I never thought Rowling would split up the twins.
There were a lot of beloved characters that bit the dust, but maybe not so many as I had feared.

Tears and cheers. I can't stop thinking about it.

[l0rca]

Oh, I could never possibly read Rowling. She's got to have one of the most abysmal writing styles in the history of popular fiction. I didn't know someone's typing could be simultaneously described as both "brief" and "purple" until her.

BUT GOOD NEWS! A brand new translation of War and Peace is due out this October. So we can all soon stop lamenting the death of writing through bad publishing. Right?

[slingblade]

Not that I mind, but how the heck did the sword go from Griphook's grubby little hands to the Sorting Hat? Was there any explanation of this other than the implied "well he needed it, so..."?

That's just a nitpick though. Generally, I enjoyed it, but I'm sad that it's over.

Just my speculation, but
regardless of Goblin notions of property rights, that sword is Gryffindor's, period. Yes, when a courageous Gryffindor truly needs it, the Sorting Hat will provide it, just as in CoS.

Here's one I would ask JKR about DH:

FRED? Did you have to? I'd almost rather have seen Ron die than Fred or George. :mad: Anyway, so what happened to Weasely's Wizard Wheezes? Did George keep it, or did it go under without his partner in mischief? Dammit. Not Fred.

[slingblade]

Oh, I could never possibly read Rowling. She's got to have one of the most abysmal writing styles in the history of popular fiction. I didn't know someone's typing could be simultaneously described as both "brief" and "purple" until her.

BUT GOOD NEWS! A brand new translation of War and Peace is due out this October. So we can all soon stop lamenting the death of writing through bad publishing. Right?

How dull. Read it. Yay. Whoopee. Classic.


Yawn.


Love HP. Only wish I could plot like that. Sigh.....

[quixotecoyote]

My only gripe was that she had to spend a few chapters laying on the expository in order to wrap everything up. But still worth it.

[SusanB-M1]

There was a reviewer of children's books on Radio 4 yesterday who was quite sniffy about the book, but I think she is probably one of a very small group! I've put my name on the waiting list to borrow an audio copy from the Library and since I'm No. 85, it's going to be a while! But I've read all the spoilers here and expect a phone call from my granddaughters today to fill in a few more details.

Stephen Fry has been the readr for all the books and he does it superbly, maintaining charactrs' voices all the way through and at the same time allowing for their ages.

[Luciana]

I'm... Stupefyied! Or is that Stunned???

I never thought she could do it. The book exceeded my expectations in every way. Sure, I have some doubts, but we can deal with those later. I agree the epilogue was a tad weak, but it served the purpose of filling in on those we cared for.

All in all, excellent. She did not disappoint us in the last second.

Some comments (and spoilers, the real kind):



- Albus is a horrible name for a kid.

- Neville killed a Horcrux! He killed Nagini and became a professor at Hogwarts! Confess, you're proud of him too!

- Luna? Did she ever know that her father betrayed Harry? And what came of her?

- And the merpeople? I wish they had had a role in the final battle.

- I wish Harry had adopted Teddy Lupin.

- MOLLY WEASLEY! The most important mother figure in the whole story, turning nasty to protect her children! Superb! I mean, who didn't love that scene?

- We never found what Harry's profession became! Not DADA teacher. What, then?

- Who is the current headmaster of Hogwarts?

I tried to slow down my reading as much as possible, but even then I'm sure that not all the details have sunken in. I did not even bother to write down the pages that contained two sentences with poor syntax. But this book is the end of saga and, as such, is a brilliant one. Some loose ends here and there are opportunities to make us use our own imagination.

[tkingdoll]

I have been crying all morning, I started to cry when Harry starts watching Snape's memories and didn't stop until the end. At one point I had to go and wipe my eyes because I couldn't see.

Sniff :(

[Beleth]

We're about to go see OotP and according to Wiki they left some things out

Like Mundungus Fletcher

How are they going to straighten that out without it feeling like Deus Ex Machina?

Ehh, they did that with
Cho Chang in book 3 too
and it didn't harm movie 4 much.

But back to book 7.
The whole "heavenly waiting room" felt a bit hackneyed. Was the mangled baby supposed to be the chunk of Voldy's soul that was in Harry when he, Harry, died?

My only WTF moment was when Neville ended up with the sword. I'd like to know the real reason behind that.

I liked the "they were just dumb kids" / "they were our age!" debates. Added a little bit of moral ambiguity that, unfortunately, didn't get translated well into Harry's thoughts.

[slingblade]

I have been crying all morning, I started to cry when Harry starts watching Snape's memories and didn't stop until the end. At one point I had to go and wipe my eyes because I couldn't see.

Sniff :(

I know. About that:

I always thought he would be redeemed in our eyes. I was so glad he was.

As to the writing in DH:

This is why I don't write a book. I cannot plot to save my life, and I am also worried I will use devices (as JKR did), and get trashed by critics, too. When I see now how many things she had going at once, and how well, overall, she balanced it...when I see how artfully she's been dropping hints from the very start, and how subtle her weaving... I don't know; I guess some readers have become jaded. I found it all excellent. I didn't even mind the few times she mangled her dangles, confunded her grammar, or clunked her exposition. What she did was difficult. I know I can't do it.

Well done, JKR, well done!

[LostAngeles]

Ehh, they did that with
Cho Chang in book 3 too
and it didn't harm movie 4 much.

But back to book 7.
The whole "heavenly waiting room" felt a bit hackneyed. Was the mangled baby supposed to be the chunk of Voldy's soul that was in Harry when he, Harry, died?

My only WTF moment was when Neville ended up with the sword. I'd like to know the real reason behind that.

I liked the "they were just dumb kids" / "they were our age!" debates. Added a little bit of moral ambiguity that, unfortunately, didn't get translated well into Harry's thoughts.


But Cho isn't a real plot point as the Horcrux that Mundungus stole and had to give up to Umbridge. I suppose they could work around it but...

Anyway, yes the mangled thing was that chunk of Voldy's soul. They even say it explicitly.

And I already explained Neville getting the sword. He was a true Gryffindor, just as Harry was in Book 2 and that's how they both pulled it out of the hat.

[LostAngeles]

How dull. Read it. Yay. Whoopee. Classic.


Yawn.


Love HP. Only wish I could plot like that. Sigh.....

I'm with you on that. I attempted War and Peace and wasn't particularly interested. Which isn't to say I don't read classic literature, when I do get the chance to read.

If someone doesn't like the books, fine. It would be nice if he/she didn't come into a thread where folks are discussing it and act all snooty about it.

Yay, l0rca is more well-read than thou.:rolleyes:

My friend gave me the same line. I told him that Harry Potter was fun. He said that's not the point of reading.

I responded if reading isn't supposed to be fun and enjoyable, why the hell would I do it.

Frankenstein is not a laugh-a-minute book. It's heart-wrenching when you feel for both Frankenstein and his creation, but it's an enjoyable read. I like letting Mary Shelley take me on that ride and I like J.K. Rowling taking me on the Harry Potter ride.

[boloboffin]

But Cho isn't a real plot point as the Horcrux that Mundungus stole and had to give up to Umbridge. I suppose they could work around it but...

Anyway, yes the mangled thing was that chunk of Voldy's soul. They even say it explicitly.

And I already explained Neville getting the sword. He was a true Gryffindor, just as Harry was in Book 2 and that's how they both pulled it out of the hat.

Plus there's the bit about expressing allegiance to Dumbledore - or is that just about getting Fawkes to help you? Anyway, Neville did that in spades, yelling out about "Dumbledore's Army." He'd stood up to his friends seven years ago - who the [rule8] did Voldemort think he was?

Salt of the earth, Neville is.

[fuelair]

I'm... Stupefyied! Or is that Stunned???

I never thought she could do it. The book exceeded my expectations in every way. Sure, I have some doubts, but we can deal with those later. I agree the epilogue was a tad weak, but it served the purpose of filling in on those we cared for.

All in all, excellent. She did not disappoint us in the last second.

Some comments (and spoilers, the real kind):



- Albus is a horrible name for a kid.

- Neville killed a Horcrux! He killed Nagini and became a professor at Hogwarts! Confess, you're proud of him too!

- Luna? Did she ever know that her father betrayed Harry? And what came of her?

- And the merpeople? I wish they had had a role in the final battle.

- I wish Harry had adopted Teddy Lupin.

- MOLLY WEASLEY! The most important mother figure in the whole story, turning nasty to protect her children! Superb! I mean, who didn't love that scene?

- We never found what Harry's profession became! Not DADA teacher. What, then?

- Who is the current headmaster of Hogwarts?

I tried to slow down my reading as much as possible, but even then I'm sure that not all the details have sunken in. I did not even bother to write down the pages that contained two sentences with poor syntax. But this book is the end of saga and, as such, is a brilliant one. Some loose ends here and there are opportunities to make us use our own imagination.
And I trust no one ever thought that Molly W. couldn't take on anything
that came after family. She had all the marks of a Warrior (multi-skilled, observant and good and interpreting what she observed, dextrous.......)!

[fuelair]

Surprised no one has mentioned Hermones' great skeptic speech on p. 411:

"Hermione looked outraged.
"But that's----I'm sorry, but that's completely ridiculous! How can I possibly prove it doesn't exist? Do you expect me to get hold of --of all the pebbles in the world and test them? I mean, you could claim that anything's real if the only basis for believing in it is that nobody's proved it doesn't exist!" "

Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows J. K. Rowling c2007 Arthur A. Levine Books/Scholastic Books (1st US ed., 1st printing)

[Kopji]

Only two local bookstores were open for the Sat 12:01 release. The parties started about 7pm with a local pizza place donating pies. After a few bites we zoomed over to the second store to see if there were any friends we'd missed. Store #2 was handing out little number braclets for people like me who forgot to reserve a copy in advance.

About 10:30pm we were getting bored so I took one kid home, but came back a little after midnight to wait in line with one kid. The huge store was almost completely full of people in four massive lines, waiting to buy a book. We were #82 of the non reserved 'Blue' line, which got our books after queues A, B, and C completed. Amazing. I told my son that he may never see anything like this again, he could (hopefully) tell his kids that he was there.

About 1:15am we got our copy and I curled up on the couch.

[Kopji]

The book did not disappoint, and IMHO was the best one. Worth the wait. I was pleased that Rowling did not forget that her target audience is children and not classic literature or history professors.

I thought that the 'Battle of Hogwarts' chapter could have benefited from some basic warfare strategy research. 'How do you attack a castle full of wizards?' could have added some interest.

The Epilogue could have been better in a lot of ways. She manages to convey that the end of childhood brings new beginnings, but the scene could have been more nuanced.

[l0rca]

I'm with you on that. I attempted War and Peace and wasn't particularly interested. Which isn't to say I don't read classic literature, when I do get the chance to read.

If someone doesn't like the books, fine. It would be nice if he/she didn't come into a thread where folks are discussing it and act all snooty about it.

Yay, l0rca is more well-read than thou.:rolleyes:

There shouldn't be much we allow the word "snooty" to be thrown around with in literature, especially War and Peace. Literature has a lot to do with passion and guts. I'm not snooty. I'm protective. When a horrible writer of fiction pulls the neck of the literate world in a headlock on the sleave of her fur coat, you might expect a few of us to try and crash a couple of parties.

I think it's a valid complaint that the most popular books on the market are very very badly written. Is this not the same skeptic board who attempts to visibly roll their eyes when intellectual fouls are committed? I suppose I could leave you all without my word, but principle forces my hand.

My friend gave me the same line. I told him that Harry Potter was fun. He said that's not the point of reading.

I'm also I'm not giving you the line that "fun is not the point of reading." There are many reasons to read. I rather argue that habitually bad writing is bad, and sponsoring bad writing is bad.

I'm not really trying to insult anyone for liking such a book. I used to read Tom Clancy myself. But shouldn't we all be a little bitter to rationalize how bad writing, like Hollywood, dominates? There are plenty of books, if they'd pass those publisher-whores, which could steal our hearts with much more grace. There are way better books out there most people will never chance a notice of.

[tkingdoll]

Did I mention I had my book at 12:06, precisely five minutes after launch?

I like to think I was first out of all of you. Especially YOU. :p

[Terry]

I didn't bother trying to get hold of it as soon as it was available. I have however just finished reading it, and it was pretty good, I thought. Not high art, but entertaining and fun.

[Redtail]

There shouldn't be much we allow the word "snooty" to be thrown around with in literature, especially War and Peace. Literature has a lot to do with passion and guts. I'm not snooty. I'm protective. When a horrible writer of fiction pulls the neck of the literate world in a headlock on the sleave of her fur coat, you might expect a few of us to try and crash a couple of parties.

I think it's a valid complaint that the most popular books on the market are very very badly written. Is this not the same skeptic board who attempts to visibly roll their eyes when intellectual fouls are committed? I suppose I could leave you all without my word, but principle forces my hand.



I'm also I'm not giving you the line that "fun is not the point of reading." There are many reasons to read. I rather argue that habitually bad writing is bad, and sponsoring bad writing is bad.

I'm not really trying to insult anyone for liking such a book. I used to read Tom Clancy myself. But shouldn't we all be a little bitter to rationalize how bad writing, like Hollywood, dominates? There are plenty of books, if they'd pass those publisher-whores, which could steal our hearts with much more grace. There are way better books out there most people will never chance a notice of.

No, when you come into a thread of people discussing a book that they love scoffing and whipping out War and Peace you're being snooty.

Yes literature is about passion and guts, it's also about sparking imagination and taking one on a journey. Rowling has done all of this.

[LostAngeles]

There shouldn't be much we allow the word "snooty" to be thrown around with in literature, especially War and Peace. Literature has a lot to do with passion and guts. I'm not snooty. I'm protective. When a horrible writer of fiction pulls the neck of the literate world in a headlock on the sleave of her fur coat, you might expect a few of us to try and crash a couple of parties.

I think it's a valid complaint that the most popular books on the market are very very badly written. Is this not the same skeptic board who attempts to visibly roll their eyes when intellectual fouls are committed? I suppose I could leave you all without my word, but principle forces my hand.



I'm also I'm not giving you the line that "fun is not the point of reading." There are many reasons to read. I rather argue that habitually bad writing is bad, and sponsoring bad writing is bad.

I'm not really trying to insult anyone for liking such a book. I used to read Tom Clancy myself. But shouldn't we all be a little bitter to rationalize how bad writing, like Hollywood, dominates? There are plenty of books, if they'd pass those publisher-whores, which could steal our hearts with much more grace. There are way better books out there most people will never chance a notice of.

All of which is valid, except that I don't find J.K. Rowling to be a horrible writer. I actually think she's quite good and adept at handling multiple plot threads and adolescent turmoil. This isn't The Babysitter's Club or Sweet Valley High, or hell, Nancy Drew. It may not be For Whom The Bell Tolls either, but it's good work.

[The Great Hairy One]

I don't think Rowling is a bad writer - go and read some Martin Cadin if you want to read bad writers. Or any of those hacks who churned out any of the early ADnD books. You can't lump Rowling in with bad writers, because she simply isn't one. I'd agree that she isn't "high literature" either, however.

Neville has to be one of the coolest characters in the book, and yes, he's a true Griffindor, which is how he pulled the sword from the hat. Molly was most excellent, although I think Rowling watched Aliens before writing that scene, definitely channeling Ripley there.

I heard mention that Rowling said if she ever wrote another book, it would be set in the wizarding world and Harry and the rest would be peripheral if mentioned at all. That wouldn't be so bad, I reckon.

Cheers,
TGHO

[tomgv15]

More stories of the wizarding world? Huh. I just finished the book. The spell has been lifted. Time for Chandler and Hammet.

[Z]

I have to agree that l0rca's interjection here serves little purpose.

Books serve many functions. One of those is to entertain. For today's modern reader, War and Peace fails to entertain in any meaningful way. Rowling's contributions to our library, however, entertain both young and old, rich and poor, and have made reading cool once more. I've personally watched many children go from the normal movie-watching, game-playing vidiots to educated readers over the Harry Potter series (and Eragon - that book helped Wolf learn to read). I've even seen a few adults rediscover the wonders of reading as well.

So who cares if the book isn't a high-brow classic with lots of flourishes and carefully plotted, epic structer, etc? Who cares if it's Rowling or King or Clancy or (god help me) Rice or Jordan? Pop-fiction appeals to the masses, but it does so for a reason. War and Peace fails to appeal, and again, for good reason.

And I'll say the same for many classic books - they were good when they came out, but they're dated, both in subject matter and in style. They're largely boring now.

Even some of the classics I loved growing up have grown stale and irrelevant as time moved on. Shakespear is dull to me now. The science fiction works of H.G. Wells barely keep my attention any longer. Pride and Prejudice is plodding and pedantic, and A Tale of Two Cities can only now serve to lull me to sleep at night.

Strangely, it's the truly fantastic that keeps its interest over time - Alice's Adventures in Wonderland, A Christmas Carol, The Wizard of Oz (and related books), etc. The books that were scoffed at in their time as being too childish, too light, to irrelevant. Frankenstein. Works that fire up the imagination and take us places we never expected to go.

War and Peace? After centuries of wars, battles, skirmishes, and the rest, it doesn't do much anymore. It's old, it's dated, and it's largely devoid of anything to fire the imagination. Of course, we feel this way about war as well...

[sgf8]

I was attending a company party in Minn, MN. I found another HP fan and we walked to the nearest bookstore. We were 298 and 299 in line, they had a separate line for the 300+. I walked back to our hotel got in about 1:15am. Read the first chapter and flung myself at the bed. Woke at 6:15, made my shuttle at 6:45am and had my nose in the book the entire rest of the journey and flight. Seriously I was walking around the terminal with a open book.

I loved being part of this whole series, amazing to see people all over the airport reading this book. It was like being in a special club. Several people saw me with the book and had to make a positive comment, nice feeling. The people I saw were all adults and they were very different in appearance and age, really cool.

That was the best flight ever. I barely noticed the take-off or landing. I was almost hoping for a lay-over so I wouldn't have to be interrupted. I drove the hour home, had lunch with my family, showered then read until finished. I finally finished at 9pm.

My 16 year old son is about 50 pages from finishing and is in his room now. My boyfriend is getting the book next, and it will take him some time to finish. THEN we can actually discuss the book in the open. Right now my son and I are whispering about what he has already read.

I could care less about her writing style. This series has done more to encourage people to read than.......... I can't think of anything to compare it to. Maybe if Tolkien had written his Middle-Earth series today that would be as big of a hit.

Susan

[Beleth]

But Cho isn't a real plot point as the Horcrux that Mundungus stole and had to give up to Umbridge. I suppose they could work around it but...
They'll work around it for sure. Maybe Dung will show up in Movie 6, or maybe in movie 7 they'll just find the real locket in Kreacher's stash and blow off the whole Umbridge subplot entirely. It would be a shame, since she's such a wonderfully despicable character, but it wouldn't be unprecedented -- in movie 5 they changed who the D.A. traitor was, after all.

Anyway, yes the mangled thing was that chunk of Voldy's soul. They even say it explicitly.I just re-skimmed that chapter and couldn't find it. In fact, they insinuate that it wasn't Voldy on p. 708:
"So the part of his soul that was in me ... [...] has it gone?"
"Oh yes!" said Dumbledore. "Yes, he destroyed it."
But then there's the part on p. 722 where they say Voldy would "return" to where they are, so it's still kind of ambiguous. It is, however, the answer that makes the most sense.

And I already explained Neville getting the sword. He was a true Gryffindor, just as Harry was in Book 2 and that's how they both pulled it out of the hat.I know. But I didn't catch that while I was reading it.

[sgf8]

Could we possibly start talking about the book without using "spoilers" every time? Can you change the thread link to include the word spoilers? No one who hasn't finished should be reading this thread.

I thought only 2-3 characters were supposed to die, what was up with all those deaths?

I didn't like the ending at all, really corny. But it does end any further books about HP. I wanted to learn more about what happens to others. Glad she answers just about everything else though.

I also caught that line from Hermy about how you can't prove a negative. That was a yoo-woo moment. But the Heaven stuff and the "Oh my God" lines needed to go.

[Beleth]

I also caught that line from Hermy about how you can't prove a negative. That was a yoo-woo moment. But the Heaven stuff and the "Oh my God" lines needed to go.
How do you feel about the dialog on page 723?

[sgf8]

How do you feel about the dialog on page 723?

Sounds heavenish. But really I don't think I have a problem with it.

BTW-My son just finished it 9pm. The book passes on....

He had a problem with the ending, got really confused with who is who.

Susan

[Luciana]

sgf8 - yeah, too many names. If I had not read it in one sitting, but over many days, I might have been confused.

But then, I grew used to characters with many names because of Russian literature. They all have three names and one nickname, and the authors use any combination of those at any times. Speaking of War and Peace, yes, it's brilliant, but not all audiences enjoy it. Blame the audience or blame the book, whatever, old discussion. But it's certainly a favorite of mine, and that's because I've read a lot of the Russians - Dostoevsky (everything), lots of Tolstoi, Turgenev, Gogol, Gorki, Tchekov, Mayakowski and endless books with short stories, too many to count. Not enough Pushkin, unfortunately. I intend to learn to read Russian specifically to reread all of those in the original.

Back to the topic, I'll miss waiting for new HP books.

[RSLancastr]

All and all, I enjoyed it, but was not as blown away by it as some of you evidently were.

I thought that some of the ending chapters (the pensieve and the talk with Obi-Wan) were kinda hackneyed, and I hope they find a better way to handle it in the film version.

But I would like to point out that two years ago, almost to the day, I nailed it! See point number three in this post (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=1125761&postcount=82). Ignore point number four, though. :)

[tkingdoll]

Meh, I've read War and Peace. It was about some Russians.

MORE IMPORTANTLY though, STOP PRESS!!

RSLancastr caught counting the hits and ignoring the misses! The end is nigh!! :D

[Robaato]

Same way Harry pulled it out of the Sorting Hat in Book 2. They're truly Gryffindors.Yes, I actually figured this, but my question (which may not have been clear, sorry) was "Did they explicitly explain this at some point, and I missed it?" And, after a few re-readings, I have to conclude that the answer is "no."
Besides, there's the potential for a funny scene from Griphook's point of view here. "Yes, my brethren, though those treacherous humans tried to swindle us out of what is ours, I wrested the sword of Ragnuk the First away from Harry Potter himself! The sword that was stolen from us by the human Godric --"

*POOF*

"....Dammit."

[Complexity]

l0rca - You are in a pretentious stage of your life and, if you persist in wanting to study philosophy rather than practice it, you are likely to remain stuck in pretention.

Since you have not read Rowling, you have no basis for having an opinion on her writing.

I am one hell of a lot better read than you. I've read more than you have. I've read more widely and more deeply than you have.

I've read more of the classics than you have. I've read them better than you have. I've read tens of thousands of other books that you will never deign to read.

I have lived and loved through books.

You are wrong.

Most of us have passed through the places you are now. I hope that you will move on as well.

[Beleth]

Sounds heavenish. But really I don't think I have a problem with it.
Really? I read that part and thought "this is the biggest pile of woo-woo I've ever read in this series, and the series is about magic!"

[sgf8]

What I felt the underlying theme throughout this book was how the human magical community does not give respect and full rights to the non-human magical community. Over and over JKR makes this point. Wonder what everyone else thought?

Susan

[pgwenthold]

It's not just the "non-human magical community," it is everyone. The whole "pure blood" thing is pretty obvious, no? Let's see, Voldemort takes over the ministry, and immediately requires all muggle borns to register. It's almost like they consider themselves to be a "superior race" or something...

[Tony]

Was anyone else mildly disappointed with the way Voldemort met his end? I was waiting for Harry to do the killing curse, that would have been an awesome moment. What we got, however, was essentially Voldemort killing himself through his own incompetence.

[pgwenthold]

While it would have been cool for Harry to pull out a can of whooparse (like he did with the cruciatus curse), this just goes back to idea that Harry is so pure that he can't kill. Note that his curse was his signature, expelliramus. Similar, the killing curse is Voldemort's signature.

"He has power the Dark Lord knows not." So much power, in fact, that his simple disarming charm is enough to repel arvada kadavra (granted, the wand makes a difference). Actually, there is a beauty in that - by rebounding a spell, the only ones to get killed are those trying to kill Harry.

Harry won't kill. Even when Lupin says, "You have to shoot to kill," Harry says he can't do it, and he doesn't.

All through the book, I was wondering how Harry would pull it off, considering that he refused to kill.

[Jon.]

My semi-random thoughts, having finished the book late last night:

1. The series is not high literature, and should not be approached as such. However, it is great entertainment, and can be appreciated as such. Rowling may not be an "artiste" but she is a hell of a good storyteller, which is at least as impressive an achievement.

2. Deathly Hallows was an excellent ending to an excellent series. The manner in which Harry finally defeated Voldemort was a perfect parallel to the manner in which Harry had been marked for the purpose sixteen years earlier.

3. I thought it was going to be cheesy if Harry was a Horcrux, but I thought she pulled it off quite nicely.

4. Yes, the expository scenes of Snape's memory in the Pensieve and Dumbledore in heaven felt a bit gratuitous, but I was happy to learn how and why all those things happened. I was a bit surprised at the length of the entanglement of Snape and Lily, but not at all surprised at the explanation of why Snape killed Dumbledore. That was exactly as I had suspected from the moment I read the scene in Half-Blood Prince.

5. I don't have a problem with the concepts of heaven, life-after-death, souls, etc. in the books. After all, they are fiction - if I can suspend my disbelief about magic generally, I can extend that to these ideas.

6. I expected that Neville would be pretty heroic, but wow! I didn't foresee him actually taking out the last Horcrux!

7. Why did Hedwig have to die? I know that she would have been too much of a beacon while Harry and Hermione were on the run, but he could have just left her with the Weasleys or something.

8. Overall, I don't have much of a problem with the number of good guys who died. It was a war, after all, and it would have been unreasonable to expect much less carnage. I figured one or both of the Weasley twins would bite it.

9. I first started tearing up when Percy came back, but didn't actually cry until Harry brought back the shades of his loved ones with the Resurrection Stone.

10. I expected Harry to be an heir of Gryffindor; but being an heir of the fellow who made the Invisibility Cloak is just as good.

[Tricky]

More random thoughts (and yeah, it's been more than two days now, so to heck with the spoiler boxes.)

The exposition scenes at the end were a bit contrived, but if she hadn't done something to tie up the loose ends, I'd be very very annoyed, so I can't really complain about the devices.

People didn't cry until the end? Hell, I cried when Hedwig died.

Mrs. Weasely is one MIHF (Mother I'd Hate to Fight), but what about Grandma Longbottom? You go Granny!

I knew he'd be back, but it was great to see Percy in the fold again.

Without a question, Hermione is the biggest star of the book. Her spells keep them alive time after time and she always knows what to do next. I'd rather face Harry in battle than her.

Too much polyjuice potion. They really have worn that out.

Luna's dad did betray Harry, but he did it to save his daughter. Still, he should have trusted Harry to rescue her (as he did anyway).

Biggest non-surprise. RAB was Sirius' brother Regulus.

Biggest surprise. Kreachure, a model elf? WTF. Actually, I did wonder about giving him the locket. Weren't they were afraid it would free him? It's almost like clothing.

Dobby. Oh Dobby you were a bad bad bad ass elf.

Learning more about Dumbledore's family was one of the best surprises of the book. I had figured Aberforth as a dim, goat-loving idiot.

I knew they would get back to Hogwarts, but I expected it to be sooner.

The only character I didn't feel too bad about was, oddly enough, Mooney. Can't really say why.

Too much time lurking in the woods. I would have preferred to see what others were doing. She could have skipped the whole part about Ron leaving and coming back, although he did bring information that was critical to the story.

That's all I can think of for now.

[pgwenthold]

Jon's comments are good.

Things I am left wondering:

1) are the Lovegood's descended from Ravenclaw? Note there is a very strong Ravenclaw connection with the Lovegoods, right down to the eagle doorknocker. However, that doesn't have to mean anything, as the Malfoys show. The Lovegoods might just be dedicated Ravenclawers. What would a true Ravenclaw pull out of the Sorting Hat?

2) Whither the Dursleys? I completely expected them to play some role, especially after Lily indicated in her letter that she had been in contact with Petunia after Harry was born (Petunia sent her a vase). ISTR that Petunia claimed to not have any contact with Lily after she started hanging out with James? Yeah, she called her a freak when she left for Hogwarts, but they still had interactions to much later on.

[LostAngeles]

Tricky:

Mooney as in Lupin or did you mean Moody?

[pgwenthold]

Without a question, Hermione is the biggest star of the book. Her spells keep them alive time after time and she always knows what to do next. I'd rather face Harry in battle than her.


She is the brightest witch of her age, and, by the time she gets to be 17, that puts her right up there with everyone else of age. How convenient to bring along her Rune book, I have to say.


Too much time lurking in the woods. I would have preferred to see what others were doing. She could have skipped the whole part about Ron leaving and coming back, although he did bring information that was critical to the story.


Actually, Ron's return was a very important aspect, because it showed that Dumbledore's bequeaths had a purpose. Before then, it was not clear that they served any purpose at all, but Ron's discovery that the Put-outer was a connection to others told the group that Dumbledore was giving them tools that he knew that would be of use specifically to them. Dumbledore knew Ron was going to get cold feet and needed a way to get back. He knew Hermione would be prepared to translate runes and solve the problem logically. Harry would bite on the Hallows story.

As for knowing what is going on elsewhere, given her style of focusing almost (but not quite) extensively on Harry's POV, there wasn't much else possible. Come on, she gave you the pensieve, the connection to Voldemort's thoughts, and a discussion with Dumbledore in heaven, and it's not enough information about what else is going on? Actually, by focusing on Harry/Ron/Hermione without more information, she brings you closer to feeling of isolation. I thought that was very well done from a storytelling standpoint. We knew something else had to be going on, but you don't get to see what happens when on the run and in hiding, and have to get information from any source you can. That's why they stole the Prophet when spying on the ministry, for example.

[Tricky]

Tricky:

Mooney as in Lupin or did you mean Moody?
Ah yes. Moody of course. No reason to miss Lupin.

[pgwenthold]

Especially after his decision to not leave Tonks. Harry might have gone too far, but he had a good point. Glad to see Lupin come around.

[Tricky]

She is the brightest witch of her age, and, by the time she gets to be 17, that puts her right up there with everyone else of age. How convenient to bring along her Rune book, I have to say.
Witch or wizard, I'd say. What she's doing with a pimply git like Ron I'll never know.

And it's not good enough just to be bright. You have to have talent too. It makes me wonder what her dentist parents thought about her as she was growing up, before she got called for school. Did anybody tell them about their baby?

[chocolatepossum]

I actually thought the book was quite bloated and could have done with more editing. Having said that, I thought there were some great bits throughout and I loved the ending, even the controversial final chapter. I was shedding a few tears by the end of the book. So pleased Ron, Hermione and Ginny both survived. I'm a romantic at heart you see. Oh, and I KNEW Snape would come good.

[pgwenthold]

Some have commented on Mrs. Weasley offing Bellatrix. That is interesting to me on many levels.

From a writing standpoint, one comment that we heard before the last book was that, as a mother herself, Rowling shouldn't be killing people off. This seems to be her statement about motherhood, basically, don't mess with the wrath of a pitted off mother. In the end, moms rule.

Second, there is an aspect of pureblood vs bloodtraitor. As I think about it, it was going to have to be a Weasley that took her down, to demonstrate the win of acceptance over discrimination. By having a pureblood kill the second most evil, she can make that point that it is not the blood that matters, but the attitude. Yes, it could have been Neville who did it, but the Weasleys are the poster children for bloodtraitors. And who better to do it than the mother?

[fuelair]

Witch or wizard, I'd say. What she's doing with a pimply git like Ron I'll never know.

And it's not good enough just to be bright. You have to have talent too. It makes me wonder what her dentist parents thought about her as she was growing up, before she got called for school. Did anybody tell them about their baby?

She is with Ron for the same reason Harry is with Ginny and Bill with Fleur - The Purebloods are mostly dying out (Squibs, decadence, weakness) - the infusion of new genetics into a strong - but muggle friendly - Pureblood family will almost certainly bring Weasley descendants into prominence/power and keep wizarding stong!!

[toddjh]

I thought it was very good overall. I agree with those who said it would've felt like a deus ex machina ending if it hadn't been set up and foreshadowed so thoroughly, but as it was it tied together events from pretty much every book, and it was a very satisfying ending.

I did think it got a little slow in the forest scenes, and I missed Hogwarts, but once it became clear the final showdown would take place there I got back into it.

I also wasn't a huge fan of the Obi Wan Kenobi scene with Dumbledore at the end. I would've preferred if that bit of exposition took place in a letter or memory that Dumbledore had prepared for Harry in advance. It feels like a dramatic cheat to have dead characters not really be dead. In fact, in my opinion it cheapens the story to have an afterlife at all: Voldemort isn't so scary when the worst he can do is send people on to the next stage of existence, and his fear of death seems downright irrational when there's obvious proof that death isn't the end of your existence.

[boloboffin]

Hermione with Ron vs. Harry, I have reasoned thus. Hermione is the brightest witch of her age, but she is also completely Muggle-born. Of the two, Ron is the more normal of he and Harry.

Harry is also trying to deal with this new magical world just like she, and Ron is completely comfortable with it in the beginning. More points for Ron.

[toddjh]

Also, I really liked the bit with Neville pulling the sword out of the Sorting Hat. When I read that he had the sword, I thought, "Wait, how did he get that?" followed quickly by "Ah, of course!" and a wry smirk at Griphook's fate. I liked the way we were given enough information to figure it out on our own instead of being bashed over the head with an explanation, which I think is often one of Rowling's weak spots.

[slingblade]

As to the Dumbledore exposition, I thought he would tie up the loose ends from within his portrait, and don't really see why he couldn't have done that.

But maybe I'm missing something. Maybe taking Harry out of the heat of battle for a moment, magically, and transporting him to a calm place he could think and listen was important. I dunno. I just wanted to see the portrait conversation I was sure we'd have.


Which leads me to ask...since Snape was a headmaster, did he not get a portrait, too? Eventually?

[rtalman]

A couple of random thoughts:

WTF with Hagrid's survival? One minute he's being carried away and munched on by the children of Aragog, the next he's tied to a tree in relatively good condition?

Mad-Eye dying: Meh, most of what we got to know about Mad-Eye was really Barty Crouch.

Damn I wish that Neville would have been the one to take out Bellatrix. I thought for sure it was coming after seeing him in the last movie.

Bellatrix: So how are your parents?
Neville: Much better now that they're about to be avenged!


Am I mistaken, or out of the 6 (or 7, depending if you count the dream sequence mutilated baby) Horcruxes, Harry only destroyed one himself (Riddle's Diary)?

[tkingdoll]

While it would have been cool for Harry to pull out a can of whooparse (like he did with the cruciatus curse), this just goes back to idea that Harry is so pure that he can't kill. Note that his curse was his signature, expelliramus. Similar, the killing curse is Voldemort's signature.

"He has power the Dark Lord knows not." So much power, in fact, that his simple disarming charm is enough to repel arvada kadavra (granted, the wand makes a difference). Actually, there is a beauty in that - by rebounding a spell, the only ones to get killed are those trying to kill Harry.

Harry won't kill. Even when Lupin says, "You have to shoot to kill," Harry says he can't do it, and he doesn't.

All through the book, I was wondering how Harry would pull it off, considering that he refused to kill.

Hey, I totally overlooked that! I was a little flat after Voldy's death but you've just made everything all right.

[dahduh]

JKR's epic reminds me a bit of Lord of the Rings; lots of rather tedious and grumpy tramping through the wilderness followed by a big exciting smash-up at the end. But boy, what a gripping ending.

My main complaint is that the whole magic premise was so sloppily executed that it allowed the author to make up ad-hoc explanations pretty much unconstrained by anything as annoying as logic. Frankly I found the whole business of wands 'choosing' their masters and bits of soul bouncing around rather unconvincing.

And JKR nearly got herself into trouble by introducing 'aparating'; it is such a plot killer that all sorts of anti-aparation devices are needed to kill it off when not wanted - unless you are Dobby, of course. Likewise tracing of underage magic, which, err, magically disappears at 17. Nah, really not convincing.

[Mercutio]

My favorite moment:

At Dobby's burial, when Ron takes off his shoes and socks to put them on Dobby.

There was only one other moment I found that simply moving, and I forget what that one is now.

[fuelair]

A couple of random thoughts:

WTF with Hagrid's survival? One minute he's being carried away and munched on by the children of Aragog, the next he's tied to a tree in relatively good condition?

Mad-Eye dying: Meh, most of what we got to know about Mad-Eye was really Barty Crouch.

Damn I wish that Neville would have been the one to take out Bellatrix. I thought for sure it was coming after seeing him in the last movie.


Am I mistaken, or out of the 6 (or 7, depending if you count the dream sequence mutilated baby) Horcruxes, Harry only destroyed one himself (Riddle's Diary)?
Aragog had been saved by Hagrid - neither he nor his children would eat Hagrid (Ron and Harry were just Friends of Hagrid so Aragog wouldn't eat them - but.........).

[Zax63]

And JKR nearly got herself into trouble by introducing 'aparating'; it is such a plot killer that all sorts of anti-aparation devices are needed to kill it off when not wanted - unless you are Dobby, of course.

I feel the same way about the Accio summoning spell. Especially after Goblet of Fire when she made it work over huge distances. Now everything has to have counter spells to prevent it's use.

[ShowMe]

I feel the same way about the Accio summoning spell. Especially after Goblet of Fire when she made it work over huge distances. Now everything has to have counter spells to prevent it's use.


I thought much the same thing. I half expect the dragon scene in GOF (where Harry has to get the Dragon's egg) to consist of Harry walking out, looking around at the area, saying "Accio egg" then looking at the judges like they were stupid.

Instead he summoned his broom from who-knows-where.

[Leif Roar]

Just finished the book, pretty much in one sitting as is tradition. It's well written and much tighter edited than her middle books, and it's very well paced throughout. Overall it's a solid and mostly satisfying conclusion.

She still can't write death scenes though, and although Voldemort actually did appear meanacing a couple of times he's still only a weak 3 on the 1-10 scale of evil. I really wish she'd have ditched the "all Gryffindors good, all Slytherins bad"[1] thing, though.

I don't think the epilogue worked very well. I can understand her wanting to give her fans some sort of closure, but I felt it detracted from the actual ending. ... Actually, I felt the actual ending detracted from the actual ending too -- I didn't really care much from aboutHarry walking off alone to meet Voldemort and on. I particularly felt Harry's monologue to Voldemort was dull and poorly executed, and the whole wand-hopping thing was silly deux-ex machina. (Yes, there was a bit of foreshadowing and scaffolding put in place earlier in the book; but not nearly enough for a critical point in the climatic final battle of a seven book long series.)

[1] Yes, yes. Pettigrew, Snape, R.A.B. and Slughtorn, I know. They're all pretty weak as exceptions go.

[boloboffin]

Which leads me to ask...since Snape was a headmaster, did he not get a portrait, too? Eventually?

I'm sure he did. There was almost an entire school year that he could have posed/not posed for one.

How does that work, exactly? How do you pose for a picture in which your portrait doesn't appear until after you're dead?

[sgf8]

As a photographer I have wondered how they take moving pictures when the photographer runs up snaps the picture and then runs away not staying for the moving part. I could understand if they stood in one place and did it like we do with the movie settings on our cameras. I don't want to hear one of you say, "its magic, that's how". Personally I think us muggles have better technology when it comes to a lot of things.

Susan

[sgf8]

The theme of oppression that runs throughout the series was more apparent in this last book.

The house elves Dobbie and Kreacher their treatment and slave status was obvious.

The dragon kept chained and blinded in the Greengotts caves was really cruel. Once freed he was thrilled. JKR could have pushed that point further but I think she just wanted a way to get the kids out of the cave.

The centaurs were mentioned more in the other books but their cause of having their territories being restricted was heartbreaking.

Treatment of the giants was very important in the 5th book but touched on here a bit.

Gobblin's were given some exposure here, he speaks about how they were not allowed to carry wands or learn magic.

I'm sure you more eloquent writers will understand what I'm trying to say and will express it better than I can. But this is the underlying theme that children need to understand. More than the half-bloods and Muggle-born, but the superior attitude towards the non-humans.

Susan

[richardm]

Okay, I finished this last night with a sense of regret that I'll never have another new one to read. But at the same time, well, that was a great read. Clever story, neat tying up of loose ends, XXX rated action in Ginny's bedroom on Harry's 17th birthday (well, nearly. For a moment I wondered if Rowling was really going to push for the 17 year-old target audience :D)

I was never particularly struck by the Pensieve as a plot device, so wasn't too taken with Snape's loose ends being tied up that way. But still, it was interesting to see the details of just why Dumbledore trusted him.

The moment when Harry discovers he's been betrayed by Dumbledore, who's apparently been plotting to send him to his death all this time was great. And yeah, I've spoilered that because it really would spoil that moment if you stupidly came here first.

The whole Gringotts raid thing was great fun.

Somehow I missed where Tonks buys the farm. One minute she's running out to find Lupin, the next they're both dead bodies. I suppose it's fair enough that in a battle that size you can't keep track off all the deaths, but that had me flicking back through the pages.

What impressed me most is what a good job Rowling did with her writing this time around. It's as though everything that made her a good storyteller really crystallised in this last effort. It felt much less bloated than the last couple of books.

It definitely requires re-reading. I've have turned it over and started again, except my wife would have killed me.

Good stuff.

Edit: Oh yes - When did Patronuses start being used as messengers? Nevertheless, when Shacklebolt's patronus arrives at the wedding and announces that The Ministry has fallen. Scrimgeour is dead. They are Coming was a chilling moment.

[Robaato]

Somehow I missed where Tonks buys the farm. One minute she's running out to find Lupin, the next they're both dead bodies. I suppose it's fair enough that in a battle that size you can't keep track off all the deaths, but that had me flicking back through the pages.I'm assuming those were the two "additional" deaths that Rowling said she inserted (I.E. not planned in advance).

At least I think that's what she said; many took it to mean only two would die, or only two of the main characters would die, or something...

[pgwenthold]

Somehow I missed where Tonks buys the farm. One minute she's running out to find Lupin, the next they're both dead bodies. I suppose it's fair enough that in a battle that size you can't keep track off all the deaths, but that had me flicking back through the pages.


Remember the stories are based on what Harry sees. If Harry doesn't see her die, then it won't end up being described in the narrative. The big difference in this case is that there wasn't time to sit around and explain how it happened, which is usually how it turns out.



Edit: Oh yes - When did Patronuses start being used as messengers? Nevertheless, when Shacklebolt's patronus arrives at the wedding and announces that The Ministry has fallen. Scrimgeour is dead. They are Coming was a chilling moment.


The implication is that the Order has always used Patronuses. In OotP, I think, Dumbledore tells Harry that "Members of the Order have more reliable methods of communicating than Delores Umbridge's fire" or something like that. Then in HBP, Tonks sends her Patronus to the school to tell Hagrid that she has Harry (and Snape gets the message instead).

[Jon.]

The implication is that the Order has always used Patronuses. In OotP, I think, Dumbledore tells Harry that "Members of the Order have more reliable methods of communicating than Delores Umbridge's fire" or something like that. Then in HBP, Tonks sends her Patronus to the school to tell Hagrid that she has Harry (and Snape gets the message instead).


Yes, and at one point in either GOF or HBP, Dumbledore needs to send a message and Harry sees a bright white bird (obviously, a phoenix Patronus) fly off.


Out of interest, what ever happened to Fawkes? He just flew off after Dumbledore's funeral, IIRC. I was expecting him to show up and help Harry at some point in the last book, but he didn't.

[eir_de_scania]

I liked the book, even if there were plotholes large enough to drive the Beauxbatons carriage through. Jo Rowling is a very very good storyteller!

Neville rocked! So did MacGonagall - and Trelawney, throwing chrystal balls. Lesson to skeptics - there are good uses for chrystal balls! But I was sorely disappointed Jo didn't let a few Slyths stay to fight. Just to show there were some decent students there, and you didn't have to be a dead former DE to be a good Slyth. And I say that even if I get sorted in Gryffindor in every test.:p (Though I write a good Slyth in my fanfics at SugarQuill.) (Pimping? Who, me?:boxedin: )

And someone please run a Basilisk fang through the Epilogue! It was soppy. :mad: First, I was disappointed there was so little information on what happened to the survivors. Then I started wondering if the VoldWar had changed anything in the wizarding world. OK, Harry Potter saying it was OK for his son to be sorted in Slytherin probably meant that House had changed. But for the rest? What about the Muggle-born prejudices? What about the relations to the other magic "races"?

[toddjh]

There was only one other moment I found that simply moving, and I forget what that one is now.

Snape wanting to look into Harry's eyes when he was dying? :(

[Mercutio]

Snape wanting to look into Harry's eyes when he was dying? :(

Not quite...very close, I think, though. It might have been the "always", in that scene or in the penseive.

(I may be misremembering--don't have the book with me right now.)

[boloboffin]

Didn't some Slytherin stay? Slughorn was certainly fighting Voldemort with the other heads of Houses.

[boloboffin]

The first time I got weepy was when Hermione began explaining how she'd handled the problem of her parents. After that, any time Hermione started to choke up, I did - especially when she got the book from Dumbledore.

[Robaato]

Snape wanting to look into Harry's eyes when he was dying? :(Don't you mean, "Snape wanting to look into LILY's eyes when he was dying?"

[orphia nay]

I finished it this afternoon, and now I want to read it again. (But I have to let hubby read it.)

I loved it! Yay, JKR! The best yet. I had so many tears at the end.

I agree with Slingblade about Snape. I'm so glad he turned out to be "probably the bravest man" Harry ever knew, because of the depth and complexity that that added to the plot of the whole series. I want to read all the books again.

I don't think the epilogue was corny, but rather just sentimental. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. If you've loved the books enough to have read them all through, don't you have sentimental feelings for Harry's world? What's wrong with a moment of sentiment (and humour, and relief) after so much suspense and drama?

I've really enjoyed reading people's comments, especially Tricky's. But I still can't work out how the sword ended up in the hat. Did Griphook give it back to the school? Or was it magic - that a true Griffindor could produce it from the hat?

A little thing that amused me immensely - Luna Lovegood's father's name: Xenophilius. Hehehe. So appropriate.

My edition doesn't have a page 723 - it ends on page 607. What "woo-woo" dialogue were people talking about? What chapter?

[Beleth]

My edition doesn't have a page 723 - it ends on page 607. What "woo-woo" dialogue were people talking about? What chapter?
The end of Chapter 35.
"Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?"

[orphia nay]

The end of Chapter 35.
"Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?"

Thanks very much. I think that works both ways - skeptic and woo.

[toddjh]

But I still can't work out how the sword ended up in the hat. Did Griphook give it back to the school? Or was it magic - that a true Griffindor could produce it from the hat?

From what I gather, the sword was enchanted so that it could only be wielded by someone who had demonstrated valor and courage in order to obtain it -- the qualities Gryffindor prized the most. That's why Snape had to place it under the ice for Harry to get: it was necessary for Harry to "prove his worth" through a trial in order to claim the sword. Since Griphook obtained it through greed and borderline deceit, he had no claim over it, and presumably it returned to its "home" in the Sorting Hat, where we've seen it before.

Neville, of course, had no problem getting it.

A little thing that amused me immensely - Luna Lovegood's father's name: Xenophilius. Hehehe. So appropriate.

Yeah. :) I have to say I'm glad Rowling didn't give in to the usual device of having the crazy woo characters turn out to be right in the end. Luna and her father are interesting characters even with their flaws.

[eir_de_scania]

Didn't some Slytherin stay? Slughorn was certainly fighting Voldemort with the other heads of Houses.
Yes, but all the Slytherin students walked out, while some Ravenclaws, more Hufflepuffs and many Gryffindors stayed.

[boloboffin]

Oh, yes, that's right. I'm looking at it now. McGonagall was evacuating the school, but said anyone not underage could stay and fight if they wished, and Slytherin departed en masse. The older students in Slytherin would have been Draco's class.

[richardm]

Don't you mean, "Snape wanting to look into LILY's eyes when he was dying?"

Egads you are right! I was waiting for some last minute trickery/information transfer or something when he wanted to look into his eyes, but of course everyone always made a fuss about how Harry has his mother's eyes. Figuratively, I hope.

Aww, that's quite sweet. Poor Snape.

Oh, yes, that's right. I'm looking at it now. McGonagall was evacuating the school, but said anyone not underage could stay and fight if they wished, and Slytherin departed en masse. The older students in Slytherin would have been Draco's class.

I interpret this as all of Slytherin house being told to leave by Prof. McGonagall on page 491:

"Thank you, Miss Parkinson," said Professor McGonagall in a clipped voice. "You will leave the Hall first with Mr Filch. If the rest of your house could follow."
Harry heard the grinding of benches and then the sound of the Slytherins trooping out on the other side of the Hall.


Seems a not unreasonable step to avoid a fifth column.

[The Shank]

Fantastic read, best of the series. My favourite part was when Ron returned, and instead of getting it on with Hermione, she punches the crap out of him!

[Segnosaur]

Yeah. :) I have to say I'm glad Rowling didn't give in to the usual device of having the crazy woo characters turn out to be right in the end. Luna and her father are interesting characters even with their flaws.

Also on the 'skeptic' side of things...

Did you notice that when the actual origin of the Deathly Hallows was being explained to Harry, he was told that it probably wasn't "death" that created the objects, but the brothers were probably just very gifted magicians who created the objects themselves. (From there the legend of 'death' followed.) Kind of a lesson on how something real can be distorted to appear more than what it is, and how 'logical' explainations can often be the answer.

One thing I was wondering though... I may have glossed over this, but how and when did they come to the conclusion that the snake was a horcrux?

[toddjh]

One thing I was wondering though... I may have glossed over this, but how and when did they come to the conclusion that the snake was a horcrux?

I can't look it up right now, but it's the subject of speculation in HBP when Harry and Dumbledore are talking after Harry gets Slughorn's memory. If I recall, Dumbledore says that the snake's unusual degree of intelligence and independence, and long life, lead him to believe it's a horcrux.

[pgwenthold]

I can't look it up right now, but it's the subject of speculation in HBP when Harry and Dumbledore are talking after Harry gets Slughorn's memory. If I recall, Dumbledore says that the snake's unusual degree of intelligence and independence, and long life, lead him to believe it's a horcrux.


I would put it another way: Dumbledore guessed. And as we know, his guesses are usually pretty good (as I said before: DIAR - Dumbledore is always right)

You are correct, though. The thinking is something like, "He is more fond of that snake than anything or anyone"

[Segnosaur]

I'm assuming those were the two "additional" deaths that Rowling said she inserted (I.E. not planned in advance).

At least I think that's what she said; many took it to mean only two would die, or only two of the main characters would die, or something...

I have to admit, I had read the same reports prior to the book release, and was confused who the 'main' character deaths were supposed to refer to...

Moody? He's only been around since book 4, and doesn't have that much interaction with Potter
Lupin? He's a bit more significant but not exactly a central figure
Tonks? Appears even less than Lupin
Dobbie? Been around longer than most of the others previously mentioned, but hasn't been a MAJOR character since his first appearance
Voldemort? Ok, he IS a major character who dies. Does he count as a 'main' character even though he's a villian?

[toddjh]

I have to admit, I had read the same reports prior to the book release, and was confused who the 'main' character deaths were supposed to refer to...

Well, I think Fred was definitely one of them. As for the other, maybe Lupin? I know he's not major, but he was the last of the Marauders, and Harry's last link to his parents.

Snape might qualify too, but, like Voldemort, that was hardly a surprise.

[Segnosaur]

I can't look it up right now, but it's the subject of speculation in HBP when Harry and Dumbledore are talking after Harry gets Slughorn's memory. If I recall, Dumbledore says that the snake's unusual degree of intelligence and independence, and long life, lead him to believe it's a horcrux.

Makes sense. (Although it also means it could have been an Animagus. Remember Black pointing out how Ron's rat Scabbers/Pettigrew had unusually long life.)

When a living being is made a horcrux, does it automatically become extra intelligent? Or was there some other magic involved?

[MrMonty]

Haven't seen anyone else mention this yet. Everyone notice how Rowling used this as a nostalgia trip? Once they Apparated to the Quidditch World Cup grounds, I thought we'd be taking a trip down memory lane. Notice how we visited just about every location: Privet Drive, The Burrow, Grimmauld Place, Ministry of Magic, Quidditch World Cup, Forbidden Forest, Shrieking Shack, Hogsmeade, Gringotts, Diagon Alley, Room of Requirement. Even touched on the bathroom and Chamber of Secrets. Not to mention, making sure almost every character got some face time. No Gilderoy Lockhart though.

Thought it was a fun book though. Slow with just Hermione and Harry jumping around for months. Hokey ending. I was hoping the last chapter she always talked about having written was the one where Harry defeats Riddle, not the cheesey epilogue. Makes sense though, since she got the idea for it all while on the train.

[MrMonty]

Well, I think Fred was definitely one of them. As for the other, maybe Lupin? I know he's not major, but he was the last of the Marauders, and Harry's last link to his parents.

Snape might qualify too, but, like Voldemort, that was hardly a surprise.

Just saw part of a recent interview where she basically said she traded Mr. Weasley's life in book 5 (she spared him) for Lupin's life in this book.

Fred is obviously one. I don't know if 2 was a hard and fast number. Personally, I count Hedwig as a beloved character and wondered right when she died whether that was one of the two.

[Jon.]

When a living being is made a horcrux, does it automatically become extra intelligent? Or was there some other magic involved?

Well, it would appear that a living horcrux obtains a "psychic connection" to the creator of the horcrux. An animal with such a connection would, presumably, behave more intelligently than others of its species due to the control possible through the connection. However, we are dealing with only two known cases here (Nagini and Harry).

[pgwenthold]

Makes sense. (Although it also means it could have been an Animagus. Remember Black pointing out how Ron's rat Scabbers/Pettigrew had unusually long life.)


I don't believe there was anything about Nagini having an extra long life.

[Segnosaur]

I don't believe there was anything about Nagini having an extra long life.

It was a point brought up by a previous poster that I was responding to. (Not sure if it was ever mentioned in the book.)

Of course, snakes DO usually have a shorter lifespan than humans (a few decades long), so for voldemort's sake, he had better hope that turning the snake into a horcrux would prolong its life, or that somehow it would remain a horcrux after the snake had died of natural causes.

[pgwenthold]

There have been a couple of posts in this direction, but let's make it more direct: what are your questions left unanswered by Book 7? I'd prefer it be kept beyond the obvious "What's Harry/Ron/Hermy/Ginny/Luna/etc doing now that they've grown up?" questions. This could be questions that you thought might be answered in the last book but weren't, or questions that were inspired by events in the last book. For example, I wonder

1) Are the Lovegoods descended from Ravenclaw? Or just big fans? What was Luna's mother doing that killed her? Even before the last book, I wondered about Luna's relationship to Ravenclaw, and then, given her house (right down to the eagle doorknocker), I wonder even more.

2) What's the deal with the veil in the Dept of Mysteries?

3) Was Crookshanks the Potters' cat? Rowling has said she wasn't an animagus but was part Kneazle. I don't know the lifespan of a Kneazle, though.

4) I still say there is more to Petunia. No she is not a witch in denial, but note that she did have contact with the Potters after Harry was born. Didn't she claim to not have contact with Lilly after she started dating "that boy"?

[Jon.]

There have been a couple of posts in this direction, but let's make it more direct: what are your questions left unanswered by Book 7? I'd prefer it be kept beyond the obvious "What's Harry/Ron/Hermy/Ginny/Luna/etc doing now that they've grown up?" questions. This could be questions that you thought might be answered in the last book but weren't, or questions that were inspired by events in the last book. For example, I wonder

1) Are the Lovegoods descended from Ravenclaw? Or just big fans? What was Luna's mother doing that killed her? Even before the last book, I wondered about Luna's relationship to Ravenclaw, and then, given her house (right down to the eagle doorknocker), I wonder even more.

2) What's the deal with the veil in the Dept of Mysteries?

I think that's where the DoM employees ("unmentionables") do research into life after death. Or attempt to.

3) Was Crookshanks the Potters' cat? Rowling has said she wasn't an animagus but was part Kneazle. I don't know the lifespan of a Kneazle, though.

I don't see any reason to think so, beyond a note that the Potters had a cat. I don't remember if Fantastic Beasts gives a lifespan for Kneazles; I'll have to check at home.

4) I still say there is more to Petunia. No she is not a witch in denial, but note that she did have contact with the Potters after Harry was born. Didn't she claim to not have contact with Lilly after she started dating "that boy"?

She's just royally p****d off that Lily got the magical powers and she didn't. I don't think there's anything more to her than that.

My question:

5) JKR said that a character who we didn't think could do magic would manage some "late in life". I don't remember seeing this in the book - I kept expecting Dudley or Petunia to get out of a sticky situation with some uncontrolled magic. So who was it?

[sgf8]

I also wondered about Petunia and Dudley. I was very pleased that Dudley made peace with Harry at the beginning, but I really wanted more about that family. I can't imagine that people could be so mean to a child. Petunia was raised by the same people who raised Lily, how could she have been so hateful (yes, I know she didn't have the powers Lily did) but they started out as close sisters and I would have thought that the parents would have tried to keep them close. At least some kind of friendship between them.

I also thought that the veil would show up again, seems that whoever invented the veil would also have left some instructions about what it was about.

I was so proud of Neville! He was my favorite character and would to have loved to see if his parents would have "come back" a bit when Bellitrix died. Or at least some improvement in their medical condition. The saddest moment in the whole series was when Mrs. Longbottom gave Neville the gum wrapper and he put it in his pocket. (SOB!)

I also wondered why Dumbledore would allow sub-standard teaching at Hogwarts, the ghost who taught the History of Magic class was awful. History shouldn't be taught like that, History is interesting and exciting and so much more, why would he ruin this for so many students. (can you tell I'm a History major?)

I would also like to see what would have happened if Harry had been carrying a gun and surprised the Dark Lord with it. I suppose the Dark Lord would have know what was happening whereas the ones raised in the magic community could easily be tricked with muggle technology.

What happened to all of Harry's family, why does JKR never mention why they are all dead?

Why doesn't JKR come right out and say that Dumbledore's sister was raped by Muggles? I mean this was a very dark book and Mrs. Weasley even uses the B word. Why couldn't they have modified the sister's memory afterwards?

Susan

[sgf8]

I have a problem with all the horocruxes. Wasn't his soul supposed to be split 7 ways?


Tom Riddle's diary
The locket
The ring
Ravenclaw's crown
Hufflepuff's cup
The snake
Harry
Voldemort

That makes 8. And spitting it even once was supposed to be amazingly stupid. How did he get away with having 8 pieces? Maybe the snake wasn't one?

Susan

[Jon.]

I also wondered why Dumbledore would allow sub-standard teaching at Hogwarts, the ghost who taught the History of Magic class was awful. History shouldn't be taught like that, History is interesting and exciting and so much more, why would he ruin this for so many students. (can you tell I'm a History major?)

I wouldn't think too hard about this one. It's a story, and in any story about school, there has to be at least one really mean teacher and one really boring one. ;)

I would also like to see what would have happened if Harry had been carrying a gun and surprised the Dark Lord with it. I suppose the Dark Lord would have know what was happening whereas the ones raised in the magic community could easily be tricked with muggle technology.

It might not even work for them; JKR has said that muggle technology won't work at Hogwarts, at least.

What happened to all of Harry's family, why does JKR never mention why they are all dead?

Excellent question, and one that I thought she had said she would answer.

Why doesn't JKR come right out and say that Dumbledore's sister was raped by Muggles? I mean this was a very dark book and Mrs. Weasley even uses the B word. Why couldn't they have modified the sister's memory afterwards?

"No sex please, we're British!":D

Seriously, I'm not sure she was actually raped; more likely she was just attacked for being different.

[Jon.]

I have a problem with all the horocruxes. Wasn't his soul supposed to be split 7 ways?


Tom Riddle's diary
The locket
The ring
Ravenclaw's crown
Hufflepuff's cup
The snake
Harry
Voldemort

That makes 8. And spitting it even once was supposed to be amazingly stupid. How did he get away with having 8 pieces? Maybe the snake wasn't one?

Susan

He didn't know he was splitting off the seventh piece when he tried and failed to kill baby Harry.

ETA: Of course, it was the sixth piece at the time; Nagini became the seventh.

[Redtail]

There have been a couple of posts in this direction, but let's make it more direct: what are your questions left unanswered by Book 7? I'd prefer it be kept beyond the obvious "What's Harry/Ron/Hermy/Ginny/Luna/etc doing now that they've grown up?" questions. This could be questions that you thought might be answered in the last book but weren't, or questions that were inspired by events in the last book. For example, I wonder


One question I had was, did anybody ever set Rita Skeeter's shoes on fire?

[boloboffin]

Egads you are right! I was waiting for some last minute trickery/information transfer or something when he wanted to look into his eyes, but of course everyone always made a fuss about how Harry has his mother's eyes. Figuratively, I hope.

Aww, that's quite sweet. Poor Snape.



I interpret this as all of Slytherin house being told to leave by Prof. McGonagall on page 491:

"Thank you, Miss Parkinson," said Professor McGonagall in a clipped voice. "You will leave the Hall first with Mr Filch. If the rest of your house could follow."
Harry heard the grinding of benches and then the sound of the Slytherins trooping out on the other side of the Hall.

Seems a not unreasonable step to avoid a fifth column.

I do disagree, respectfully. McGonagall is trying to evacuate everyone at the top of the chapter, but some students led by Ernie Macmillian force her hand and she says that those of age may stay and fight. She then tells the rest of Slytherin house to follow Pansy, and then says, "Ravenclaws, follow on!" The impact of the next paragraph is lessened if Slytherin was forced to leave to a wizard ("The Slytherin table was completely deserted...").

I do feel silly debating this, though. :) But it's a good kind of silly.

[rtalman]

What happened to all of Harry's family, why does JKR never mention why they are all dead?

Lily's parents were muggles, and wouldn't have the long lifespan of wizards. Other than being the family line that owned the invisibility cloak, James' family is nowhere to be seen.

I always assumed it was for the same reason the James Henry Trotter (James and the Giant Peach) didn't have any family besides his mother and father; British authors seem to like the protagonist to be an orphaned boy.


I also wondered why Dumbledore would allow sub-standard teaching at Hogwarts, the ghost who taught the History of Magic class was awful.

I also wonder that. But it seemed that Dumbledore would keep anyone teaching there that he had a personal fondness for (Divination, anyone?) despite their lack of ability. I liked Hagrid very much, but making him a professor?

[boloboffin]

An interesting take on the series (http://news.yahoo.com/s/csm/20070725/cm_csm/ysawyer), with the author openly musing whether Snape was the real protaganist of the story. I have to admit, Snape's story would make for an interesting adult read.

[sgf8]

I think Hagrid makes a wonderful teacher. That is if he would just be allowed to teach and not always have to worry about his job or his creatures. Who better to learn from than someone who truly loves and understands these creatures.

JKR never allows Harry to express how much he has learned from Hagrid, with out Buckbeak and the testrills(sp?) the Centaurs and Aaragog and the Dragons what would Harry have done? Hagrid gave him tons of knowledge to combat or use these creatures to his advantage. Oh yeah in the 4th book he had a lot of knowledge to fight off that one that breathed fire? Also in book 5, one of the students levatates the gold searching creature into Umbridge's room and tears it apart looking for shinny stuff.

Susan

[RSLancastr]

British authors seem to like the protagonist to be an orphaned boy.
Or girl, as in Dahl's The BFG.

[Odin]

Began brilliantly, went a bit wheel-of-time (as in contains long stretches where nothing happens) in the middle and started to recover towards the end.

Of all the books it was the most varied in quality, there were some great moments and some awful moments.

questions:

How can moody's eye see through the invisibility cloak in GoF if its perfect?

[fuelair]

I would also like to see what would have happened if Harry had been carrying a gun and surprised the Dark Lord with it. I suppose the Dark Lord would have know what was happening whereas the ones raised in the magic community could easily be tricked with muggle technology.

Susan
Oak with a silver tip bullet in a S&W .460 cartridge or 12gauge shotshell with birdshot pellets in silver and oak. Bakshi fan (Wizards)?:)

[rtalman]

How can moody's eye see through the invisibility cloak in GoF if its perfect?
Maybe his eye works using the same principles of the Marauder's Map, which, IIRC, could track someone despite the cloak and identify an Animagus.

I think it was implied that Dumbledore could see through the cloak as well.

Only Lovegood declared the robe perfect (we have seen his track record), and he also said the wand was supposed to be undefeatable, and if so, how could Dumbledore defeat it in a duel? As speculated in the book, the DHs probably were not crafted by Death, but were just superior items made by artisan wizards, and thus not perfect.

[specious_reasons]

5) JKR said that a character who we didn't think could do magic would manage some "late in life". I don't remember seeing this in the book - I kept expecting Dudley or Petunia to get out of a sticky situation with some uncontrolled magic. So who was it?

Meriope Gaunt - Voldemort's mother. Marvolo Gaunt thought she was a squib, but out of her father and brother's influence, she seemed to gain enough confidence to bewitch Voldy's father.


I think it was implied that Dumbledore could see through the cloak as well.
I don't think it was that Dumbledore could see through it, it was that he was quite perceptive of magic, and able to make the right deductions. :)

[Jon.]

Meriope Gaunt - Voldemort's mother. Marvolo Gaunt thought she was a squib, but out of her father and brother's influence, she seemed to gain enough confidence to bewitch Voldy's father.

I don't have HBP in front of me right now, so I can't check for sure, but I got the impression that Merope wasn't a squib, just a clumsy witch.

Besides, I thought that JKR's reference was for Book 7, but I'll have to look that up.

I don't think it was that Dumbledore could see through it, it was that he was quite perceptive of magic, and able to make the right deductions. :)

This seems like a reasonable explanation.

[LostAngeles]

Rowling reveals some interesting details here: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19959323/

[pgwenthold]

So there are some answers.

One thing that I am curious about, yet. She has reconsidered her position on Luna/Neville, at least allowing for the possibility. However, one problem with them actually getting married: As far as we know, none of the Hogwarts teachers are married. Is this actually the case? It reminds me of the school in Dead Poets Society where the teachers are so dedicated that they forego most of their worldly possessions.

That was why I didn't expect Hermione to end up at HW if she married Ron. Harry I could have seen ending up alone, OTOH, had it come to that.

[ShowMe]

The author was shooting for “nebulous,” something “poetic.” She wanted the readers to feel as if they were looking at Platform 9¾ through the mist, unable to make out exactly who was there and who was not.

So the author honestly believes that millions of fans that have read her books, followed Harry from his discovering he was a wizard through this last book....those who have followed the story for the past, what, 16 years...this author believes they wanted seomthing "nebulous" at the end?

Seriously?

Personally, I find that rather pathetic.

[quixotecoyote]

Clever, really. She's going to sell another book to explain it.

[Dorian Gray]

I have a problem with all the horocruxes. Wasn't his soul supposed to be split 7 ways?


Tom Riddle's diary
The locket
The ring
Ravenclaw's crown
Hufflepuff's cup
The snake
Harry
Voldemort

That makes 8. And spitting it even once was supposed to be amazingly stupid. How did he get away with having 8 pieces? Maybe the snake wasn't one?

Susan

Yeah... take a piece of paper and rip it 7 times, and you'll have 8 pieces.

[Dorian Gray]

I always assumed it was for the same reason the James Henry Trotter (James and the Giant Peach) didn't have any family besides his mother and father; British authors seem to like the protagonist to be an orphaned boy. Not necessarily orphaned, but something...Tolkien never mentions Frodo's mother and father, for example.

[sgf8]

Not necessarily orphaned, but something...Tolkien never mentions Frodo's mother and father, for example.

My son says that Frodo's mom and dad drowned that's why Bilbo adopts him.

Susan

[zooterkin]

Just finished it last night; I thought it was a satisfying end to the series, overall. No big surprise about Snape, I've always felt he was working for Dumbledore, though the reason wasn't obvious. Agreed with the comment about JKR and death scenes; I just didn't believe that Dumbledore was really dead in the previous book. Not as in I didn't want to believe it, but it just didn't fit. In a sense, he wasn't, as he seemed to be present in the last book, and the additional fact that he knew he was dying helped it to click.

How did Neville escape when the sorting hat was on fire?

[orphia nay]

How did Neville escape when the sorting hat was on fire?


I'm not sure. More magic due to his being a true Griffindor?


I can't post about Neville without saying "Yay Neville! You rock!" :)

[Ichneumonwasp]

Just finished it last night; I thought it was a satisfying end to the series, overall. No big surprise about Snape, I've always felt he was working for Dumbledore, though the reason wasn't obvious. Agreed with the comment about JKR and death scenes; I just didn't believe that Dumbledore was really dead in the previous book. Not as in I didn't want to believe it, but it just didn't fit. In a sense, he wasn't, as he seemed to be present in the last book, and the additional fact that he knew he was dying helped it to click.

How did Neville escape when the sorting hat was on fire?

Well, God can't die exactly. He can be removed but not die.

My kids got it first and I'm a slow reader so I haven't finished yet -- about half way through right now. Personally, I like the Godric's Hollow scenes. I think it would have been better if she didn't beat the reader over the head with the message, but I guess she thought most fundies wouldn't get it. They still probably won't, but I thought that was a pretty good way of cautioning against us mortals thinking we really know the plan of God (can lead to the dark side). She's always done well jabbing at those she disagrees with (as in the creation of Gilderoy Lockhart and Delores Umbridge), and I think it is pretty clear that she disagrees with fundamentalism of all sorts, this being a book about seeing beyond children's stories and learning to see the numinous as an adult and not as a child. In an interview she had previously said that she was doing something different from C.S. Lewis and JRR Tolkien and now I can see that she has. It's an interesting take on the Jesus story.

ETA
I will say that casting the Ministry of Magic as Hell was pretty cute. The Limbo scenes were pretty boring as limbo scenes usually are in most stories. Can't wait to see how he gets to heaven.

[richardm]

She then tells the rest of Slytherin house to follow Pansy, and then says, "Ravenclaws, follow on!" The impact of the next paragraph is lessened if Slytherin was forced to leave to a wizard ("The Slytherin table was completely deserted...").


Hmm, yes, you are probably right. Still, clearly Slytherin took her at her word so I don't feel bad about being wrong :D
I do feel silly debating this, though. :) But it's a good kind of silly.

It's nice to find harmless common ground between so many different people :) And of course being so long the books respond well to this sort of discussion too; when re-reading there is usually more to be gleaned.

[toddjh]

How did Neville escape when the sorting hat was on fire?

Harry died to save his friends when he turned himself over to Voldemort in the forest -- or meant to, anyway. In doing so, he created the same protection for his friends that his mother had created for him. There's a line in there somewhere where Harry points out to Voldemort that none of his curses were working very well after that.

I think that's one reason why Dumbledore had to be cruel and not tell Harry the truth about why he had to walk right into Voldemort's hands to die. It was important for Harry to believe he was actually giving his life, or else the protection wouldn't work. It was part of Dumbledore's plan to whittle away Voldemort's defenses and powers one by one before the final confrontation.

[Myriad]

One thing that struck me about this book is how much Rowling appears to be being influenced by the movie versions of the earlier books in the series.

In Chamber of Secrets the ride to Hogwarts in the flying car was a reasonable action sequence in the book. The movie (in typical fashion) exaggerated this into over-the-top life-threatening action involving the car almost crashing into bridges and the train, the characters falling out and barely hanging on to the doors, etc.

But that's changed. None of the action set-pieces in Deathly Hallows will need to be exaggerated for cinema. Some of the passages can just be sent directly to the digital animators and they can set to work on them right now.

Not only that, but they follow other movie action rules, such as fire not hurting you unless you're actually in the flames; falls (or even power dives) from any height not hurting you as long as you land on something soft or come to a halt (however abruptly) above the ground itself; sitting on the back of a dragon as it blasts and squeezes its way out of a too-tight tunnel not getting you injured by blast fragments or crushed against the roof, and so forth. And above all, extended scenes where every moment brings another new "near miss" with certain death regardless of how the odds accumulate when you have dozens of near misses in the same scene.

This isn't a complaint, just an observation. I don't think it detracts from the book. It's interesting, though, because I can't recall any similar cases of authors (meaning writers known primarily as novelists rather than, say, screenwriters) so obviously being influenced by movie adaptations of their own earlier work.

A few other comments about the book:

- Like others, I found the new "wand pwnership mechanics" contrived. Considering the importance of duelling to wizards, this would have been noticed. Even if the Elder Wand were not generally known, wizarding history would be all about who pwned whose wand when.

- I can only imagine the impact that Rowling's respectable rendition of the young-willing-sacrifice motif must have on young readers who haven't run across similar scenes before. Fans of the genre will have encountered it before in (non-Harry-Potter spoilers follow:) Guy Gavriel Kay's Fionavar Tapestry, Joy Chant's Red Moon and Black Mountain, among others. Rowling's definitely dabbling in the "dark arts" side of heroic archetypes there. The partial cloaking as Christian mythology ("Kings Cross," eh?) was an interesting (if not unusual) touch that should be good for many an English Literature essay in years to come.

- Voldemort hid the diadem horcrux in the room of hidden things created by the Room of Requirement, supposedly because he believes himself to be the only one who's ever found it. But wouldn't the presence of the millions of other objects in the room be something of a clue to the contrary?

- Whaddaya know, it turns out that the most effective counter to the dreaded Avada Kedavra curse is the agilicus relocatus, otherwise known as dodging out of the way! One might think that this skill(along with accurate aim) would be more strongly emphasized in Defense Against the Dark Arts instruction.

- Another bit of newly discovered wizard lore: if you're holding multiple wands, you can mutliply your spells! Odd that wizards have never noticed that useful trick before... (I had assumed -- or perhaps it was stated somewhere -- that mutliple wands would interfere with one another somehow, even if the second wand wasn't in one's hand, as a way of explaining why the obvious precaution of carrying a spare wand wasn't a common practice.)

- Are the fifty other casualties of the Battle of Hogwarts really all characters we'd never heard of? Considering for example the number of Weasley casualties compared with the number of Weasleys on the scene (and their willingness to engage with the most dangerous opponents), either the casualty rate was shockingly high among the not-a-known-character population, or there were a lot more defenders of Hogwarts (professors we'd never met? sixth- and seventh-year students we'd never met?) than it appeared.

Respectfully,
Myriad

[richardm]

How can moody's eye see through the invisibility cloak in GoF if its perfect?

I think probably the powers of the Hallows were somewhat exaggerated through history. The story was basically handed down through fairy tales after all. The cloak is a very impressive piece of magic, but not totally impenetrable to suitably strong other pieces of magic - Moody's eye and well, Dumbledore I guess could apparently see through it. He was a powerful wizard who had had an opportunity to study it though, which must have helped.

Other exaggeration might be that the Elder Wand was supposed to be invincible yet the string of people who attained the wand after offing the previous owners goes down through history. And if you don't get your hands on it through one of the officially-sanctioned wand-approved methods then it's even less than invincible because it doesn't want to play with you.

Incidentally the effect of the resurrection stone on the resurrected is to bring them back to you but it is as though there is a veil between you - the only reference to the arch with the veil I can spot.

[rtalman]

This isn't a complaint, just an observation. I don't think it detracts from the book. It's interesting, though, because I can't recall any similar cases of authors (meaning writers known primarily as novelists rather than, say, screenwriters) so obviously being influenced by movie adaptations of their own earlier work.
I would say that applies to Michael Crichton's Jurassic Park vs. Lost World. Lost World reads like a first draft movie script.

[kbm99]

Not necessarily orphaned, but something...Tolkien never mentions Frodo's mother and father, for example.

Drogo Baggins and Primula Brandybuck. Went messing around in a boat on the Brandywine and drowned. Some say it was Drogo's vast girth as sunk the boat, others suggest Primula pushed him . . .

[pgwenthold]

One thing I have been thinking about at this point on my second way through is how Rowling has been treating the stories of Dumbledore. I think it is interesting on how she has so many people with pretty strong "just so" views on what happened with the Dumbledore family (Batilda (related by Skeeter), Auntie Muriel, Doge), with none of them being completely correct, but then again, none of them completely wrong. No one really understood what was wrong with Ariana (nor made the connection with the father's conviction), and let other impressions bias their speculation. Doge, sympathetic to DD, thinks she was just sick, whereas Muriel, more pragmatic (and generally nasty, according to the Weasleys) assumes she was locked in the basement.

It's a great statement about how we project in those cases where we don't have all the information.

[tkingdoll]

I always assumed it was for the same reason the James Henry Trotter (James and the Giant Peach) didn't have any family besides his mother and father; British authors seem to like the protagonist to be an orphaned boy.



I think it's quite sensible to make a child who goes on fantastic/dangerous adventures an orphan. That way there aren't any parents around to say "you're doing WHAT??!!"

[Robaato]

Something to keep in mind:

The Elder Wand made you invincible in battle. Outside of a duel-type situation, you're on your own. Note that the original owner didn't die in a fight, but rather by being knifed whilst in a drunken stupor.

[toddjh]

The Elder Wand made you invincible in battle.

And even then, it's only as good as the wielder. Sure, your spells are going to be unstoppable, but if your aim is off, or your opponent is quicker and can keep you constantly on the defensive, that won't mean anything. I presume that's how Dumbledore was able to defeat Grindelwald.

[Myriad]

I would say that applies to Michael Crichton's Jurassic Park vs. Lost World. Lost World reads like a first draft movie script.


Ah, interesting. I ignored the sequel novels.

Crichton's been having his novels filmed for a long time, and he also writes original screenplays if I'm not mistaken. So it would be difficult (though interesting) to attempt to trace the relative influence of film versions on his work overall. With Rowling, there's just the Harry Potter series to look at.

Respectfully,
Myriad

ETA: Here's a quick example.

From Sorceror's Stone:
He [Hagrid] tapped the wall three times with the point of his umbrella.
The brick he had touched quivered — it wriggled — in the middle, a small hole appeared — it grew wider and wider — a second later they were facing an archway large enough even for Hagrid, an archway onto a cobbled street that twisted and turned out of sight.
"Welcome," said Hagrid, "to Diagon Alley."


From Deathly Hallows:
Hermione drew out [minor spoiler removed] and tapped a brick in the nondescript wall in front of them. At once the bricks began to whirl and spin: A hole appeared in the middle of them, which grew wider and wider, finally forming an archway into the narrow cobbled street that was Diagon Alley.


The change is small but telling, the focus shifting from an enlarging hole (after one brick quivers and wriggles) to whirling spinning bricks. Based, perhaps, on the animation of the Sorceror's Stone scene in the first movie? In any case, the second is a much more concrete description; there are many ways to imagine the hole opening in the first scene -- the wall could flow around the edges of the hole as it opens, or slide like a curtain, or fade away, for instance -- while the second clearly suggests bricks separating from one another, in order to whirl and spin, and rearranging themselves.

[rtalman]

Ah, interesting. I ignored the sequel novels.

Crichton's been having his novels filmed for a long time, and he also writes original screenplays if I'm not mistaken. So it would be difficult (though interesting) to attempt to trace the relative influence of film versions on his work overall. With Rowling, there's just the Harry Potter series to look at.

Respectfully,
MyriadI've only read Crichton's Jurassic Park, Lost World, Timeline and Next.

Jurassic Park read like he lifted the plot whole from his movie Westworld (I have not read his novel so cannot compare) and substituted dinos run amok for robots run amok. Timeline read like a book written based on the movie, a la Star Wars and Total Recall.

Next, while a fun read in speculative fiction, I don't think could make a decent movie.

[specious_reasons]

The Elder Wand made you invincible in battle. Outside of a duel-type situation, you're on your own. Note that the original owner didn't die in a fight, but rather by being knifed whilst in a drunken stupor.

I thought of it like richardm did - it's the finest wand, but its actual power has been amplified by legend.

One thing I have been thinking about at this point on my second way through is how Rowling has been treating the stories of Dumbledore. [....]
It's a great statement about how we project in those cases where we don't have all the information.


I totally agree with you there. We get another (biased) story from Aberforth, but his story is biased not in the facts of the situation, but in Aberforth's interpretation of Albus's motivations.

I like the fact that Dumbledore is taken down a few notches in this book.

[pgwenthold]

In some ways, the "filmification" of scenes is really dumb. For example, consider the transport of Harry by the advance guard in OotP. In the movie, they are buzzing around the streets and doing a flyby on Parlaiment. Why in the heck would they do that when trying to transport Harry securely? Shoot, they had a disillisionment charm on him to make in invisible and then they take him on a joy ride through the heart of the city? Not the stealthiest approach.

I think Rowling added some of the adventurous stuff because she could.

BTW, since Ron and Harry never passed their aparition tests, why couldn't the ministry track them whenever they aparated?

[toddjh]

BTW, since Ron and Harry never passed their aparition tests, why couldn't the ministry track them whenever they aparated?

Didn't Hermione do all of the actual apparating? I got the impression the rest of them were just riding along with her.

Edit: I guess not, since Harry and Ron did independent spying at the Ministry. Good question.

[pgwenthold]

Didn't Hermione do all of the actual apparating? I got the impression the rest of them were just riding along with her.

Edit: I guess not, since Harry and Ron did independent spying at the Ministry. Good question.

My initial response was the same as yours, but then I in particular thought of Ron leaving and coming back.

I need to look back to HBP and see what she says about illegal apparition.

[jab712]

BTW, since Ron and Harry never passed their aparition tests, why couldn't the ministry track them whenever they aparated?

I think because they were now age 17, they couldn't be tracked by the ministry. If I remember correctly, they could apparate before age 17 (at age 16) if they passed the test. If they didn't pass the test they would be tracked because they were under 17.

I only read the last three books once, so I might be remembering incorrectly.

[pgwenthold]

I think because they were now age 17, they couldn't be tracked by the ministry. If I remember correctly, they could apparate before age 17 (at age 16) if they passed the test. If they didn't pass the test they would be tracked because they were under 17.

I only read the last three books once, so I might be remembering incorrectly.

You are not allowed to take the test until you have turned 17, and, even if you are 17, you have to pass the test before you can apparate legally. It is heavily regulated, and non-licensed apparition, even by those of age, is punished.

They themselves were not tracked by the ministry, but specific actions (such as speaking a specific WORD) can apparently be tracked.

[Skeptic Guy]

I know I'm way behind, but hell that was a good book! And like Tricky and others, I shed some tears...

Dobby, Fred, Lupin, Tonks...they hurt...and way to go Mrs W!

[LostAngeles]

Just finished it last night; I thought it was a satisfying end to the series, overall. No big surprise about Snape, I've always felt he was working for Dumbledore, though the reason wasn't obvious. Agreed with the comment about JKR and death scenes; I just didn't believe that Dumbledore was really dead in the previous book. Not as in I didn't want to believe it, but it just didn't fit. In a sense, he wasn't, as he seemed to be present in the last book, and the additional fact that he knew he was dying helped it to click.

How did Neville escape when the sorting hat was on fire?

Because Harry's willingness to sacrifice himself for his friends gave them the same protection his mother had given him. This is made clear during the last encounter with Voldemort.

[Jon.]

Because Harry's willingness to sacrifice himself for his friends gave them the same protection his mother had given him. This is made clear during the last encounter with Voldemort.

In addition, Voldemort was not the true master of the Elder Wand, so it wouldn't always work properly for him.

[jab712]

You are not allowed to take the test until you have turned 17, and, even if you are 17, you have to pass the test before you can apparate legally. It is heavily regulated, and non-licensed apparition, even by those of age, is punished.

They themselves were not tracked by the ministry, but specific actions (such as speaking a specific WORD) can apparently be tracked.

I guess I was confusing 16 with 6th year lessons. My bad.

[Jon.]

I like the fact that Dumbledore is taken down a few notches in this book.

Indeed - and I think that it was necessary for him to be taken down in Harry's eyes. Harry would not have considered himself worthy to face Voldemort if he thought that he was far less noble than Dumbledore. He had to learn that, like him, people are less than perfect, and that we can get beyond our history and redeem ourselves by acting nobly.

[LostAngeles]

Indeed - and I think that it was necessary for him to be taken down in Harry's eyes. Harry would not have considered himself worthy to face Voldemort if he thought that he was far less noble than Dumbledore. He had to learn that, like him, people are less than perfect, and that we can get beyond our history and redeem ourselves by acting nobly.

Not to mention that one of the hardest parts of growing up is realizing that your parents and/or your heroes are human. Taking Dumbledore down a few notches is a demonstration of that.

[bjornart]

Got the book yesterday afternoon and finished it earlier today. Took breaks to eat, sleep, watch some TV, and to make the book last a little bit longer. :D

Now admittedly I'm fairly accepting when it comes to "flawed" writing, but I found it quite good. I even liked the expositions with Snape's memories and Dumbledore's post-mortem appearance. I groaned a little when Dirk and the goblins just happened to meet up with Ted Tonks and Dean just within extendable earshot of the tent, and just happened to talk about the most interesting things out in the world while catching up on various news. But only a little, books would be pretty boring if every event had to be likely.

And I loved Hermione's formulation of the woo creed and how Xenophilus doesn't even realise she's trying to point out the absurdidty of this world view.

[bjornart]

So the author honestly believes that millions of fans that have read her books, followed Harry from his discovering he was a wizard through this last book....those who have followed the story for the past, what, 16 years...this author believes they wanted seomthing "nebulous" at the end?

Seriously?

Personally, I find that rather pathetic.

No, she honestly felt that “[...] it didn’t work very well as a piece of writing[.] “It felt very much that I had crowbarred in every bit of information I could … In a novel you have to resist the urge to tell everything.”

What millions of fans want at the end would fill several more books. Although I'd have liked to know more details, I also know I'd have felt cheated if the book ended with pages upon pages of epilogue. It'd be almost as bad as when a book suddenly ends and the rest is "read the first chapter of the sequel now!"

[eir_de_scania]

Jo has hinted on doing a Potterverse Encyclopedia for years, but now she's all but promised to do it. That sounds promising, let's just hope it will be a thick, fact-filled tome. Not that it won't have some fans complaining they didn't get all the facts!

[Ashles]

I will say only this: If you haven't read it yet, do so. Just finished the book and it is amazing.

Finished it 4 minutes ago. I laughed, I cried, I deliberately missed a train to carry on reading... Just simply wonderful.

If anyone has criticisms of the book, well fair enough, I guess it just didn't quite work with you. It did with me.

[pgwenthold]

So I am re-listening to it again, this time on my commute so I am paying pretty close attention because I don't have anything else to do (first time through I was multi-tasking a little, and so not concentrating as much). Got to the point this morning where Dobby died. It made me cry.

Here Lies Dobby
A Free Elf

[sgf8]

I love books on tape!

I need to plan a long car trip just so I can listen to book 7

Susan

[Redtail]

I love books on tape!

I need to plan a long car trip just so I can listen to book 7

Susan

Heh. I'm in the process of moving to Chicago so I'm driving a lot between Tallahassee FL and Chi town, thus I have DH and several other Books on CD.

[pgwenthold]

When DH came out, we got the book and the audio on CD. Well, we _pre-ordered_ them both, but when we got to the store, they told us they had been shorted the CDs. I was NOT pleased. There were no audio versions left in town, either (since they had run out, people had gone to other places and bought them out, and so on). We came back to the local town and found the audio version there (we read to each other in the car on the 1 hour drive - we were SUPPOSED to be listening to Jim Dale)

We got home and my wife read as I listened and uploaded it to the iPod. That was great because I was able to keep listening while doing things like mowing the lawn.

My wife got done a couple of hours before I did.

As I said, now I am re-listening. Jim Dale is a delight.

[EventHorizon]

Something a friend pointed out to me:

Remember the 'Snape's Worst Memory' Chapter in OotP. Harry looks in the pensieve and sees Snape being humiliated in front of Lily and the other students. It seems to be implied that the humiliation is the part of this memory that is the worst for Snape. But that's not it, not even close. After seeing his memories in DH, we learn that was actually terrible about that memory in OotP is the fact that he called Lily a mudblood. Something he never got over.

[zooterkin]

Because Harry's willingness to sacrifice himself for his friends gave them the same protection his mother had given him. This is made clear during the last encounter with Voldemort.

You're right, I just didn't go back far enough in applying that explanation.

I did feel that the idea was very similar to the wand-lore as mentioned above; surely this wasn't the first time someone had been prepared to sacrifice themselves, so why was the mechanism not already understood?

At a slight tangent, since the audio versions have been mentioned. The UK versions are read (very well) by Stephen Fry; I've always been curious as to why the US version is read by Jim Dale, since he's also British. Any Americans who've heard both versions care to comment on which they prefer, and why? Or it just that he's better known over there? (In the UK, I'd say he was best known for the Carry On films.)

[pgwenthold]

I've always been curious about Jim Dale vs Stephen Fry. I do know that Dale is a delight. I listen to lots of audio books, and rarely do you find anyone that can bring it like Dale does.

[Marquis de Carabas]

I have now read both War and Peace (twice even) and the entire Harry Potter series. My appreciation of the former in no way prohibited my enjoyment of the latter.

[orphia nay]

Finished it 4 minutes ago. I laughed, I cried, I deliberately missed a train to carry on reading... Just simply wonderful.

If anyone has criticisms of the book, well fair enough, I guess it just didn't quite work with you. It did with me.

Well said. :)

It seems some people love being elitist about the books. My theory is that they're jealous of JKR. Luckily we haven't seen too much of that in this thread.


On a side note, I now have a whole new reason to hold Dr. Adequate in high esteem. (Re: his longtime avatar of Alan Rickman as Snape.)

[quixotecoyote]

I know I tend to get "elitist" after being exposed to a certain amount of gushing from my adult-peers. This is for the simple reason that it's not top-tier fantasy. It's written for kids so I'm willing to cut it a lot of slack, but even then I've seen better. I'd put Loyd Alexander's Book of Three series up against the Harry Potter series any day of the week.

That said, I did enjoy the series. I thought it easily hit the bar set by the children's' fantasy market. I just wish people would move beyond children's literature into the real meaty stuff.

[ShowMe]

I've always been curious about Jim Dale vs Stephen Fry. I do know that Dale is a delight. I listen to lots of audio books, and rarely do you find anyone that can bring it like Dale does.

I listened to the first Harry POtter book on tape. The only version available to me at that time was Jim Dale'; I thought he was wonderful.

But tehn I heard Stephen Fry. YMMV, but in my opinion Stephen Fry is the better of the two. I think his characterizations are better, the voicing is better and things seems to "move" better when he reads.

I will grant that part of this may be the fact that Stephen Fry is reading the British version of the book, and HP is a British creation. The "flovor" is different.

There were some parts of the book that I had trouble suspending my disbelief. If you can apparate anywhere & have an invisibility cloak, you will never ever have to go hungry or sleep outside. And when they were surrounded in the tent why not simply grab the sword and go *poof*? It's mentioned in the book you can't be tracked with side-along apparition, and they didn't have a problem doing it before.

Dumbledor isn't the only one brought down a couple of notches. We discover that James Potter was the typical high-school jock who picks on the geek kids, with James & his cronies the only ones thinking it's funny. Snape was right about him all along.

It's a fun beach book but certainly not the best in the series.

[sgf8]

I did feel that the idea was very similar to the wand-lore as mentioned above; surely this wasn't the first time someone had been prepared to sacrifice themselves, so why was the mechanism not already understood?

From the way Malfoy's mother reacted to Draco's safety, you would think that she could also have sacrificed her life for her son. Does that mean that the spell would also rickashay back onto the Dark Lord? Then Draco would also be marked with the scar. Wouldn't it be an interesting ending if the Dark Lord would have been killed because of the Malfoys?

I think all the HP audio books I have are read by Jim Dale. I really like him, I think I have some other books read by Fry, I'm sure he does a good job also.

I hope whoever said that they were taking turns reading the book in the car on the way home was also taking turns driving! Like to see that article if reading it caused an accident.

Susan

[Garrette]

I didn't know Jim Dale didn't do the British versions of the audio books.

I also didn't know the British versions of the books were significantly (or at all) different from the US versions.

Is Stephen Fry the same Fry who does skits with Hugh Laurie?

Regarding who is better known in the US, I think it is undoubtedly Jim Dale, but I only know him from two things:

Walt Disney's "Pete's Dragon" (a delightful kids' movie in which Dale plays a traveling medicine man), and

"Barnum," a short-lived Broadway musical.

Most Americans, though, in my experience don't know Jim Dale at all.

[toddjh]

I also didn't know the British versions of the books were significantly (or at all) different from the US versions.

The American versions have some minor changes. For example, the title of the first book was changed from Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone to Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone, presumably because they thought that a word like "philosopher" that implied a lot of thinking wouldn't appeal to American audiences. :P

I'm not sure, but I also think they Americanized some of the slang a bit for the US version. That doesn't bother me so much; they are intended for a child audience after all (well, the first couple books at least), and I don't think it's out of line to make some minor changes to make them a little easier to follow for American kids.

Is Stephen Fry the same Fry who does skits with Hugh Laurie?

Yep, same guy. What I don't understand is why they got two, equally British actors to read the different versions. 99% of the text was the same between them; you'd think they could've saved themselves some money and maintained consistency by having one guy do both versions.

[Buckaroo]

Here's hoping JKR will write a spin-off companion volume, telling Luna's, Ginny's, and most especially Neville's, story while they're putting together the resistance at Hogwarts. I NEED MORE NEVILLE STUFF.

I was a little disappointed that Draco didn't end up openly rebelling against his parents and joining our heroes against Voldemort at the end, especially after all the difficulty he was having in HBP and this book. It would have been a nice scene if he had realized that being a Death Eater just wasn't in him, and stood up to Voldemort (maybe even giving his life in the fight? Would've been a moving act of redemption). Of course, with Snape and Dudley already ending up as decent guys, there may not have been enough redemption storylines to go around.

Go, Dudley. Dim, but decent. It was especially nice to read after the truly menacing turn he took the film version of OotP.

As bloody as DH was, how on Earth are they gonna be able to keep the movie PG-13? :)

[dogjones]

Yeah, it was great - the vast amount of exposition at the end will make it tough to movie-ize I think.

[LostAngeles]

You're right, I just didn't go back far enough in applying that explanation.

I did feel that the idea was very similar to the wand-lore as mentioned above; surely this wasn't the first time someone had been prepared to sacrifice themselves, so why was the mechanism not already understood?
...

It seems to be implied that it was. Voldemort never used this to his advantage as he scorned such things as love and friendship. He never had friends, only followers and worshippers. As devoted as Bellastrix was, I doubt that she would even would sacrifice herself for Voldemort and even if she did, I don't think it would work. Love is not devotion.

Also, I'm willing to think that if you got someone to love you and then got them to die to protect you just so you'd get the protection, it wouldn't work.

[ClintonHammond]

Well, I just finished it, and I gotta say, thank pasta that's over-with.... It had some good bits.... Mrs W THROWING DOWN was ****'* cool (And about damn time too!)


But overall if felt gratuitous.... self indulgent.... sorta like the last 3 books or so... I think this story got WAY beyond JKR's ability to tell it (Most of the really interesting things happen OFF SCREEN!?!?!?) and that she fell into the trap of her own hype.....

I'll be very curious to see what, if anything, she does next.

"Is Stephen Fry the same Fry who does skits with Hugh Laurie?"
He was also the voice of "The Guide" in the movie HH2TG...

[fuelair]

YES!! and the same Fry who played Jeeves to Lauries' Bertie Wooster!!!

[Ove]

We held our vacation in Whitby (North east England) and we got out copy Saturday 21. June. We had it pre-ordered at the local book store. My two kids (15 and 19) were allmost killing each other in order to read it first but i sneaked it away fro them Sunday morning and read the final chapter (yes i know but i HAD to know who survived :) ) I have off course read all of it since. My observation is that when you get to the middle approximately, it gets allmost impossible to shut. I read the last half ending 2:30am. The wife was puzzled.

The series are incredibly well written (I have read "great litterature" too) The opponents really just demonstrates their ignorance. I have NEVER critisized a writer/composer/filmmaker for being "bad". I have often stated that i dont like a particular book/CD/film but to set one self up as a judge of what is "good" or "bad" is ridicoulus. EOS......

My one regret was that i wish she would have "cultivated" the love story between Harry and Ginny a bit more. I may be an old romantic but i would have liked him to sneak up and give her a big kiss rather than talk to Ron and Hermione in the end. :)

But i really don't think she is THAT good at writing "romantic stuff", she is probably a bit too British there.. :)

[sgf8]

We held our vacation in Whitby (North east England) and we got out copy Saturday 21. June. We had it pre-ordered at the local book store. My two kids (15 and 19) were allmost killing each other in order to read it first but i sneaked it away fro them Sunday morning and read the final chapter (yes i know but i HAD to know who survived :) ) I have off course read all of it since. My observation is that when you get to the middle approximately, it gets allmost impossible to shut. I read the last half ending 2:30am. The wife was puzzled.

Are your children girls or boys? My 19 year old boy was out of the series by the time he was 15, can't stand them now. My 16 year old boy was also not interested after about 15 but read the last book only because it was the last book. He said he wanted to read it to see Harry die.

With book 6 we bought two copies so that we wouldn't have to share it. I was thrilled to read book 7, I covered up the drawings and chapter titles so it didn't give anything away. I didn't want anything to spoil the surprises, how could you read the last chapter first?

I don't care for all the romantic stuff, they are just kids. Give them time.

Susan

[NobbyNobbs]

Plus there's the bit about expressing allegiance to Dumbledore - or is that just about getting Fawkes to help you? Anyway, Neville did that in spades, yelling out about "Dumbledore's Army." He'd stood up to his friends seven years ago - who the [rule8] did Voldemort think he was?

Salt of the earth, Neville is.

Here's hoping JKR will write a spin-off companion volume, telling Luna's, Ginny's, and most especially Neville's, story while they're putting together the resistance at Hogwarts. I NEED MORE NEVILLE STUFF.

Go, Dudley.

My friend and I, way back at about book 2, considered ourselves the founding members of the Neville Longbottom Fan Club. Feel free to join. Membership is free.


So the author honestly believes that millions of fans that have read her books, followed Harry from his discovering he was a wizard through this last book....those who have followed the story for the past, what, 16 years...this author believes they wanted seomthing "nebulous" at the end?

Seriously?

Personally, I find that rather pathetic.

Then you'd probably hate to read "The Gunslinger Series", by Stephen King. Which, by the way, is absolutely fabulous.

You know a book is absolutely fabulous, by the way, when despite being a quick reader, you find yourself reading slower and slower as you approach the end of the last book, simply because you don't ever want it to end, and because you know that the joy you've had in reading it thus far, while being satisfied by the ending, will somehow lessen as well with the knowledge of what finally happens.

ShowMe, don't ever read this series. You'd hate it. I highly recommend it to everyone else, though.

[ClintonHammond]

"this author believes they wanted seomthing "nebulous" at the end?"
I think it's more likely she was incapable of anything else....

[Ove]

Are your children girls or boys? My 19 year old boy was out of the series by the time he was 15, can't stand them now. My 16 year old boy was also not interested after about 15 but read the last book only because it was the last book. He said he wanted to read it to see Harry die.

With book 6 we bought two copies so that we wouldn't have to share it. I was thrilled to read book 7, I covered up the drawings and chapter titles so it didn't give anything away. I didn't want anything to spoil the surprises, how could you read the last chapter first?

I don't care for all the romantic stuff, they are just kids. Give them time.

Susan


One each :) Son is 15, Daughter is 19 and i really dont see him changing taste but who knows. He is into Computer gaming too and a lot of that is Fantasy based so i guess it fits in..

It was easy, i just opened the book, found the last chapter and read it -lol, I have done that several times and it doesn't spoil the book to me but then i can easily read a good book many times.

I will ...

[sgf8]

I will ...

I was talking about Harry and Ginny, but I guess it would apply to your kids also.

Susan

[Spidey13]

I just finished reading it yesterday. I took my time because I didn't want it to end. BTW, I loved it.

I knew Snape would turn out good, but I didn't want him to die. Also, I was really hoping to see Draco switch sides and fight against Voldy.

[sgf8]

I just finished reading it yesterday. I took my time because I didn't want it to end. BTW, I loved it.


Ahhhh another one has joined us.....

I guess I read it too quickly. I really need to find a reason to take a long drive and listen to the book again.

Susan

[orphia nay]

I will say only this: If you haven't read it yet, do so. Just finished the book and it is amazing.

Moby, I noticed you started this thread and haven't commented further. I agree that the book is amazing. :)

I was wondering, since you are only about a year older than Harry, when you started reading the books.

Did you feel like you were growing up with Harry, and if so, what was that like?

[Mobyseven]

Moby, I noticed you started this thread and haven't commented further. I agree that the book is amazing. :)

I was wondering, since you are only about a year older than Harry, when you started reading the books.

Did you feel like you were growing up with Harry, and if so, what was that like?

Heh, actually, a confession - I always thought I'd hate the books when I was younger. Didn't see what all the fuss was about. I only got into them around the time the third book came out - my aunt insisted that I read the books, so I decided to give them a try.

I then went through the available books in short order and have always anticipated the next book, waiting for the release date to roll around and then reading the books before the end of the day!

There has been some sort of a 'growing up with Harry' aspect. I've always felt sad that when they cast the HP movies they insisted on using English actors, as I would have killed to have been Harry in the movies (or hell, just to have a role!) but such is life. Daniel Radcliffe does a superb job in my opinion, and has grown as an actor throughout the movie series.

Also, as has been previously mentioned, I have a long time Ginny crush. Yes, I know she's a fictional character. No, I don't care. She's cute, 'kay? :blush:

[orphia nay]

:) Thanks, Moby.

So, you would have been about 10 when you started reading them. Did you ever think magic was possible?

I ask that because in my town, there's a family who are part of a religious community and they have indoctrinated their daughter into it. The girl, aged 13, wrote to our local paper a few years ago, averring that the Harry Potter books were evil, and should not be read because evil and Satan are real, and the books "encourage" magic, which is also evil.

When my son (now 14) heard about that, he said he thought she was crazy, and that everyone knows magic isn't real. (He stopped reading the books, though, during the last one when Dumbledore died. Although he says he might now read the last one, but he's not in a hurry.)

[Mobyseven]

:) Thanks, Moby.

So, you would have been about 10 when you started reading them. Did you ever think magic was possible?

Hmmm...no, I think I was a bit older than that. Though I don't know for sure. Falliable memory and all that.

I'm sure that at some stage in my childhood I thought that magic was possible, but I grew out of it pretty quickly...before I left my first primary school even, and so before I started reading Harry Potter. I found that knowing that 'magic' was an illusion (when performed) was more satisfying anyway, as it meant I could try and figure out how the trick was performed.

I always wanted to grow up to be Jonothan Creek...:blush:

I ask that because in my town, there's a family who are part of a religious community and they have indoctrinated their daughter into it. The girl, aged 13, wrote to our local paper a few years ago, averring that the Harry Potter books were evil, and should not be read because evil and Satan are real, and the books "encourage" magic, which is also evil.

Well, where I come from we have the largest Christian Science population in Victoria (per capita at least). This subforum is probably not the place for me to get into my views on religion, but suffice it to say that I disagree strongly with the indoctrination of children into religion.

The irony to this girl's predicament of course is that she will likely be one of the one's who grows up still believing that magic is real. All the other children have tried some of the Harry Potter spells (and other spells) and have learnt that they cannot be done. By extension they will gradually realise as they grow up that magic is not real. Meanwhile, the poor girl who wrote the letter will never have tried for herself, and will likely wind up believing in magic and passing such a belief onto her children, and so on and so on...

When my son (now 14) heard about that, he said he thought she was crazy, and that everyone knows magic isn't real. (He stopped reading the books, though, during the last one when Dumbledore died. Although he says he might now read the last one, but he's not in a hurry.)

Well, he is your son. ;)

[darnell11]

I thought it was interesting that Harry is actually older than the time the books come out. I mean, in book seven, when Harry finds his parent's grave, the gravestone says they died in 1981, which would make Harry about 25 or 26 now in 2007. I thought it was neat because I was born in 1981, in October, so, Harry and I are roughly the same age. I wish that the last chapter could have been in the present time, then, instead of 19 years later. I just think it would have fit better if she brought us up to what Harry is doing now instead of so many years later.

Anyway, I think it's cool to know that if Harry were real, he'd be in my generation, and not the kids who are 17 today.

[sgf8]

I thought it was interesting that Harry is actually older than the time the books come out. I mean, in book seven, when Harry finds his parent's grave, the gravestone says they died in 1981, which would make Harry about 25 or 26 now in 2007. I thought it was neat because I was born in 1981, in October, so, Harry and I are roughly the same age. I wish that the last chapter could have been in the present time, then, instead of 19 years later. I just think it would have fit better if she brought us up to what Harry is doing now instead of so many years later.

I hadn't noticed that, but then I read the book in one day so who knows how much I caught.

Remember JKR is writing this book for the generations in the future. We are only a moment in time that this series will be spoken about. Kinda makes you feel special don't it? Just kinda.

Susan

[Luciana]

Not only HP is making children read, it's making Brazilian teenagers learn to read in English! It's surely an effort to read a 800-page book in a language you're not proficient in, and at least from the 4th book on the vocabulary has grown larger. Imagine reading a book having to go to the dictionary many times over a single page.

While I was in line at the book shop, with hundreds of other adults, I saw many teenagers biting their nails to get their books. Let me tell you, most teenagers wouldn't make this kind of effort for anything else.

[HistoryGal]

I always wanted to grow up to be Jonothan Creek...:blush:

Then count me in your fan club - I love Jonathan Creek!

I very much enjoyed the HP series, even though I didn't start reading it until Book 4. Anything that gets kids to read is a good thing.

HG
Apparently the same age as Lily Potter.

[Mobyseven]

Woohoo! Another JC fan!

...Jonothan Creek, that is... :D

[fuelair]

I suspect there are lots of us - should be anyway!!!

[Ove]

I was talking about Harry and Ginny, but I guess it would apply to your kids also.

Susan

Hmmm i was talking about Harry and Ginny too :)

[Undesired Walrus]

Man, what an awful ending.

I was willing it to end with young Harry at the crossroads of Kings Cross, with Dumbledore over his shoulder.

Nope, had to have the drippy, stupid, sentimental ending.

[orphia nay]

I should have known you'd think that, Walrus, Mr Doom 'n' Gloom. :)

[athon]

I'm going to have to become Mr. Hated No. 1 and say I really wasn't thrilled with it. The first couple of books weren't bad (although don't really rank up there with my favourite early adolescent fiction. Philip Reeve's 'Mortal Engines' trilogy is more my taste in that genre), but after a while I really began to have problems with Rowling's style. Her plot devices are clumsy and not planned clearly and her convenient deus ex machina plot moves really do get thin after a while. That said, she knows how to use the formula effectively to keep the story moving swiftly.

I also had issues with the very ending.

Glad it's all over, though. Not a bad series, but hardly worth the hype IMO.

Athon

[ClintonHammond]

"I really wasn't thrilled with it."

Yer not alone.

[Luciana]

I was thinking, it would have been neat if Harry and Ginny had had twins. The genes for it are there, and it would be a nice remembrance of Fred.

[pgwenthold]

I was thinking, it would have been neat if Harry and Ginny had had twins. The genes for it are there, and it would be a nice remembrance of Fred.

I think we are well past spoilers, Luc

But I like the idea. Albus AND Severus. Would have been a nice touch.

[gtc]

I wonder

1) Are the Lovegoods descended from Ravenclaw? Or just big fans? What was Luna's mother doing that killed her? Even before the last book, I wondered about Luna's relationship to Ravenclaw, and then, given her house (right down to the eagle doorknocker), I wonder even more.

I agree. It would be good to see Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff houses fleshed out some more.

4) I still say there is more to Petunia.

I also wonder about that, could Dudley father a witch (or wizard)?

I also wonder that. But it seemed that Dumbledore would keep anyone teaching there that he had a personal fondness for (Divination, anyone?) despite their lack of ability. I liked Hagrid very much, but making him a professor?

Trelawney was kept because Dumbledore witnessed her prophecy. I think he wanted to protect her and the prophecy from Voldemort.

As for Hagrid, he was already employed at Hogwarts and has enormous knowledge of magical creatures. I do wonder why she emphasised the fact that the trio dropped his subject in 6th year.

....

Myriad,

I wonder if JKR providing more concrete descriptions is a way for her to control what we see on the screen. The final chapter might serve the same purpose as anyone who wants to write a sequel will have to follow her ideas.


....
Harry seems to have only sat 3 years worth of exams. Exams were cancelled in one of his early years (if I remember rightly), he missed exams when he was champion and it seems exams were cancelled again in his 6th and 7th years.

This means that there must be a large number of wizards and witches who haven't sat their OWLs or finals. What becomes of them? Does Harry go back in the next year or does he go to night school (or Knight School)? Are their Night OWLS for people who drop out of school?

....
Two last thoughts. People seem sure that the crying baby is the part of Voldemort in Harry; could it not be the part of Voldemort that is left in Voldemort's own body?

Also Nagini as the last Horcrux. Even if Dumbledore could not be certain that Nagini was a Horcrux; it became obvious when Voldemort kept Nagini back from the fight and provided Nagini with so much protection.

....

There is another interview (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20035573/) with Rowling where she explains some of the issues raised in this thread.

[ImaginalDisc]

Harry seems to have only sat 3 years worth of exams. Exams were cancelled in one of his early years (if I remember rightly), he missed exams when he was champion and it seems exams were cancelled again in his 6th and 7th years.

This means that there must be a large number of wizards and witches who haven't sat their OWLs or finals. What becomes of them? Does Harry go back in the next year or does he go to night school (or Knight School)? Are their Night OWLS for people who drop out of school?


Surely if your exams are delayed, you can take them later? Harry had a good excuse for missing a year, really.

[Lothian]

One part I didn’t get; Snape died, something silver came out of his body and it was collected in a thermos.
What was it and did it appear again ?

I thought it was poison and would be used later but if it was I missed it.

[pgwenthold]

It was the memory that Harry watched in the pensieve.

[Lothian]

It was the memory that Harry watched in the pensieve.Doh !

thanks