US hires Sadam's thugs.

[Landis]

According to a news report on CNN Sunday Morning, the US is actively recruiting members of the Mukhabarat, the Sadam secret police, to carry out spying against the Iraqi citizens. This is the same same secret police group who tortured and killed thousands of Iraqi's for Sadam. They are brutal, vicious men who will stop at nothing to extract information.

The Bush apologist, who say it doesn't matter whether we find WMDs or not, justify the invasion on the grounds that Sadam was a brutal dictator who tortured and killed his own people. Of course now, his thugs are our thugs. Does this now make it okay to kill and torture Iraqi citizens? Have we not just ceded the moral high ground (if there ever was one)?


I am thoroughly disgusted that my tax dollars are being used to pay the Sadam thugs to torture people.

For more information, there is an article in today's Washington Post.

[Tmy]

A good thug is hard to find!

Get real, all secret police do nasty things. DO you think ours are any different than those in Iraq? I suppose the Gitmo camp is a freakin tea party for the prisoners of war.

[Landis]

Originally posted by Tmy
A good thug is hard to find!

DO you think ours are any different than those in Iraq? .

I reallize the US has a long history of supporting dictator's who brutally suppress their people (i.e. the Shah of Iran, Sadam when he was our puppet, etc.). But the question now is, "how do the Bush's apologist respond to the fact that we now are engaging the exact same thugs Sadam used to carry out torture and murder against the Iraqi people?" After all, their main justification for the war, in lieu of the tons of WMDs that mysteriously disappeared, is that we have ended the brutal dictators reign and the Iraqi people are better off. How are they better off if they are still being tortured and killed, only this time we are paying the torturers?

[Mr Manifesto]

They invariably invoke the Chewbacca defense.

[Tmy]

Theyll probably point to Clinton. Thats the old standby.

Thsi reminds me of how they didnt take out the poppy fields while in AFganistan so as not to piss off the lovely warlords. So much for war on drugs/drugs support terror bullshiznit.

[Crossbow]

Just three days ago there was a devastating attack on a UN facility in Iraq that may well have been aided by Saddam loyalists who working for the UN. But now, the USA after having significant problems dealing with these same loyalists is going to hire some of them to help the USA.

Having the foxes guard the hen house is just the lastest in the string of bad ideas that have so characterized this war.

[jj]

Sounds like this is turning into a total cluster***k.

I hate being Cassandra, I do, I do.

:mad:

[American]

Somebody is going to hire those guys. It's better to have them on our own payroll than our enemies'. If we can use them, all the better.

[Landis]

Originally posted by American
Somebody is going to hire those guys. It's better to have them on our own payroll than our enemies'. If we can use them, all the better.

So let me get this straight. You're saying that when Sadam was torturing and killing his own people, we were justified in launching a full scale invasion to stop him. But now that he is vanquished to the sewers of Baghdad, it is okay for us to hire his henchman to continue torturing and killing the Iraqi people?????

[rikzilla]

Originally posted by Landis


So let me get this straight. You're saying that when Sadam was torturing and killing his own people, we were justified in launching a full scale invasion to stop him. But now that he is vanquished to the sewers of Baghdad, it is okay for us to hire his henchman to continue torturing and killing the Iraqi people?????

Landis,

Saddam's bad guys are busy running around blowing people up, destroying water and oil pipelines, and ambushing American troops. They are doing this because they no longer have the ability to enjoy being the "police" in Saddam's police-state. They want to be the police again. They want to torture Saddam's enemies, they want to have their old lucrative lives back. But they can't, unless.....unless the US/UK/UN turns tail and runs out of Iraq.

Remember, these guys were living the high life, now they are hunted. They've been declared "dead-enders"...and in the new Iraq they know there is no place outside a jail cell for them. Their only hope is to cause enough terror/sabotage/bodybags so that the country is left open for them to dictate to.

Now, the US has a problem. The guys on the ground need good intel in order to catch and kill these creeps. The idea was that if you co-opted a few "dead-enders"...gave them hope that they would be pardoned/rewarded...then some of them would rat out the others.

Were this to go well, one could expect that the US may have to rehab/pardon some lower level baddies in order to gut the resistance of the dead-enders. This would have the effect of reducing terror/sabotage/bodybags as the "dead-enders" are successfully hunted. This would help foster an environment in which a stable Iraqi government could better emerge.

All in all a pretty good common-sense idea once we debunk all of that silly straw-man hyperbole such as: "But now that he is vanquished to the sewers of Baghdad, it is okay for us to hire his henchman to continue torturing and killing the Iraqi people?????"

Unless you have evidence that this is happening, I'll go out on a limb here and say simply that it isn't.

-z

[American]

Originally posted by Landis
But now that he is vanquished to the sewers of Baghdad, it is okay for us to hire his henchman to continue torturing and killing the Iraqi people?????


Killing their own citizens will NOT be in their new job description. I bet they'll get fired for it, or at least written-up.

We'll say 3 murders and you're gone, no exceptions.

[Crossbow]

Originally posted by rikzilla


Landis,

...

All in all a pretty good common-sense idea once we debunk all of that silly straw-man hyperbole such as: "But now that he is vanquished to the sewers of Baghdad, it is okay for us to hire his henchman to continue torturing and killing the Iraqi people?????"

Unless you have evidence that this is happening, I'll go out on a limb here and say simply that it isn't.

-z

Take a peek at this:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A37331-2003Aug23.html


U.S. Recruiting Hussein's Spies
Occupation Forces Hope Covert Campaign Will Help Identify Resistance

BAGHDAD, Aug. 23 -- U.S.-led occupation authorities have begun a covert campaign to recruit and train agents with the once-dreaded Iraqi intelligence service to help identify resistance to American forces here after months of increasingly sophisticated attacks and bombings, according to U.S. and Iraqi officials.

The extraordinary move to recruit agents of former president Saddam Hussein's security services underscores a growing recognition among U.S. officials that American military forces -- already stretched thin -- cannot alone prevent attacks like the devastating truck bombing of the U.N. headquarters this past week, the officials said.

...

While many Iraqi officials say they are aware of the recruitment, some have spoken against the use of former operatives, and others have warned against reconstituting an intelligence service before an independent Iraqi government takes charge. Former exiles who cooperated with the Americans were trailed by Iraqi intelligence for years, and among them the issue is particularly sensitive. "We've always criticized the procedure of recruiting from the old regime's officers. We think it is a mistake," Mahdi said. "We've told them you have some bad people in your security apparatus."

...

[American]

BAGHDAD, Aug. 23 -- U.S.-led occupation authorities have begun a covert campaign to recruit and train agents ....



It's covert, but you're reading it right here of all places. :rolleyes: :wink:

[Charlie Monoxide]

I hope all you Americans (especially the ones that DO vote), are making note of all this.

Charlie (shocked and awed) Monoxide

[Kevin_Lowe]

Heh.

I bet lots of Americans actually thought that the heroic US forces would be arresting and/or executing the torturers from the old regime.

:p

[armageddonman]

Will those guys be hired before or after they are "brought to justice"?

[Landis]

Originally posted by rikzilla


Now, the US has a problem. The guys on the ground need good intel in order to catch and kill these creeps. The idea was that if you co-opted a few "dead-enders"...gave them hope that they would be pardoned/rewarded...then some of them would rat out the others.

Were this to go well, one could expect that the US may have to rehab/pardon some lower level baddies in order to gut the resistance of the dead-enders. This would have the effect of reducing terror/sabotage/bodybags as the "dead-enders" are successfully hunted. This would help foster an environment in which a stable Iraqi government could better emerge.

All in all a pretty good common-sense idea once we debunk all of that silly straw-man hyperbole such as: "But now that he is vanquished to the sewers of Baghdad, it is okay for us to hire his henchman to continue torturing and killing the Iraqi people?????"

Unless you have evidence that this is happening, I'll go out on a limb here and say simply that it isn't.


-z

Okay, so let me get this straight. We're going to hire a few "dead-enders", because they have past expertise at torturing Iraqi's to gain valuable information, to rat out other "dead-enders" to help our cause. Of course, they will not use their former techniques since they are working for the "good guys" now. Yeah Right!!!!

[rikzilla]

Originally posted by Landis


Okay, so let me get this straight. We're going to hire a few "dead-enders", because they have past expertise at torturing Iraqi's to gain valuable information, to rat out other "dead-enders" to help our cause. Of course, they will not use their former techniques since they are working for the "good guys" now. Yeah Right!!!!

Welcome to the real world Landis. This kind of thing has been going on forever. Case in point,...Sammy "The Bull" Gravano. Go read: "Underboss: Sammy the Bull Gravano's Story of Life in the Mafia".

The guy is an admitted murderer...yet he was freed because his testimony nailed some very big fish including John Gotti himself.
He went into the witness protection program, and co-wrote that book. (He later ran afoul of the law again and is now in jail in Arizona...but that is another story)

You and others here like to hype the idea that US soldiers are hiring these guys to torture people. However, there is no evidence to support such an allegation. OTOH law enforcement agencies have used plea barganing and witness protection in exchange for testimony/evidence that nails the main organizers of criminal activity. Why then would it be a bad idea to use this tried and true technique to capture or kill the leaders of the Iraqi Ba'athist terrorists? Would you rather the attacks continue unabated against American troops?

I'm sorry if my explanation bores you, it's not as exciting as wild charges of employing maniacal torturers...yet it is far more likely that my explanation is the correct one.

Occam's razor.....the razor that never gets dull. ;)

-z

[Landis]

Originally posted by rikzilla



You and others here like to hype the idea that US soldiers are hiring these guys to torture people. However, there is no evidence to support such an allegation. OTOH law enforcement agencies have used plea barganing and witness protection in exchange for testimony/evidence that nails the main organizers of criminal activity. Why then would it be a bad idea to use this tried and true technique to capture or kill the leaders of the Iraqi Ba'athist terrorists? Would you rather the attacks continue unabated against American troops?


-z

I am living in the real world. You are not getting my point and I apologize if I have not made it clear enough. Okay, I will accept your assumption that we are not hiring these guys to torture people. Let's suppose they are only being paid to provide information on those who would attack US interest. How does this sit with the anti-Sadam Iraqi's who may have had a relative tortured or killed by these thugs? Are they going to Trust the US military not to let these thugs get out of hand? Are you sure they would only inform on the Iraqi Ba'athist terrorist and not, for example, the Shiite religious zealots who are vying for control of Iraq?

My point is we have now given up the moral highground which was our last redeeming response to the Invasion of Iraq.


I would rather we had never gone into Iraq. I am old enough to remember the quagmire of Vietnam. Of course, I don't want the attacks to continue (at all) but in the "Real World" US servicemen are going to continue to die in Iraq and for what???

PS. You're explanations do not bore me, I always welcome alternate points of view to my own.
.