Experiences of the €uro in practice - Good or Bad

[CWL]

Well, we're having a bit of a referendum here in Sweden on September 14, 2003 about joining the third step of the European Monetary Union - i.e. about introducing the Euro instead of the good ol' Swedish Krona.

I have personally made my mind up, but I still thought it would be interesting to hear about the experiences of those forum members out there who reside within the Euro-zone.

Thus: € - good or bad in your personal opinion and experience?

[CWL]

Ok. 1 for "Bad" and 1 for "None of the above", but no explanatory posts. Come on people, explain yourselves! That's the fun part of a thread, remember?

[RandFan]

My friend tried a euro once. He had to see a doctor. I know it is anecdotal but the experience is enough to make me avoid them.

I think allot more research needs to be done on their impact to society and humanity. I would not outlaw them but I would caution others to think seriously before becoming involved.

It is fair to note that while England does not currently engage in the practice of euros they do have the highest incidents of reported mad cow disease so I think something could be said of that.

Frankly I would Mark the whole thing up to lack of experience of this new practice.

Good luck and good day.

[CWL]

Thank you for that insightful post, Randfan. It made me want to sing, sing, sing...

I've got ninety thousand pounds in my pajamas.
I've got forty thousand French francs in my fridge.
I've got lots of lovely lira,
Now the Deutschmark's getting dearer,
And my dollar bills would buy the Brooklyn Bridge.

There is nothing quite as wonderful as money!
There is nothing quite as beautiful as cash!
Some people say it's folly,
but I'd rather have the lolly,
With money you can make a smash!

There is nothing quite as wonderful as money!
There is nothing like a newly minted pound!
Everyone must hanker for the butchness of a banker,
It's accountancy that makes the world go round!

You can keep your Marxist ways,
for it's only just a phase...
Money, money, money makes the world go round!

Money! Money! Money! Money! Money! Money! Money! Money! Money!

[shanek]

"The Europeans are so proud of their new common currency, known as the 'Euro.' This replaces their previous common currency, known as the 'dollar.'" —Tim Slagle

[Trollbane]

Well overall I would say that the euro was a good thing.. It took a bit of time to get used to, but it made my trip around europe a lot easier and as far as I know our companys buying division likes it a lot when ordering materials from mid-europe..

I still catch myself counting the price of things in marks occasionally though.

[Cleopatra]

I am not sure how it will turn out for a country like Greece. I think that it's silly to have the same currency with Germany for example which has a strong economy.I am afraid that we will become Argentina.

People here have rough times with the Euro. All the prices have gone up and everybody is complaining, things are pretty difficult for the wage workers, things are always better for the self-employed.

Not to say that it's almost a suicide to get off the Euro-zone, today I talked to my sister who spends the summer in London and she has freaked out and have in mind that she is a USA resident.

7 Euros for a package of cigarettes in England?!!!

Anyway the concept was good, we need more time to see how it will turn out.

What have you decided, if I may ask? :)

[RandFan]

Originally posted by CWL
Thank you for that insightful post, Randfan. It made me want to sing, sing, sing...A mark, a yen, a buck or a pound
A buck or a pound, a buck or a pound
Is all that makes the world go round
That clinking, clanking sound
Can make the world go round

[shanek]

Ah, these delightful songs are getting me in the mood for the holiday where we celebrate money: Christmas!

Christmastime is here, by golly
Disapproval would be folly
Deck the halls with hunks of holly
Fill the cup and don't say when

Kill the turkeys, ducks, and chickens
Mix the punch, drag out the Dickens
Even though the prospect sickens
Brother, here we go again!

On Christmas day you can't get sore
Your fellow man you must adore
There's time to rob him all the more
The other three hundred and sixty-four

Relations, sparing no expense'll
Send some useless old utensil
Or a matching pen and pencil
Just the thing I need, how nice

It doesn't matter how sincere it is
Nor how heartfelt the spirit
Sentiment will not endear it
What's important is the price

Hark, the Herald Tribune sings
Advertising wondrous things

God rest ye merry merchants
May ye make the Yuletide pay

Angels we have heard on high
Tell us to go out and by

So let the raucous sleigh bells jingle
Hail our dear old friend Kris Kringle
Driving his reindeer across the sky
Don't stand underneath when they fly by!

[CWL]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
What have you decided, if I may ask? :)

I will vote yes. In the long run I believe that a common currency will further trade and competition, which is always positive. Besides, we're a country of less than 9 million inhabitants. Feels rather ridiculous being such a small EU member trying to get by with our own currency. Also, Finland, which is rather similar to Sweden, seems to have benefited from the introduction of the new currency.

As to the increase in prices, I think it is natural that attempts are made to round off upwards until people get used to the new currency. In the long run however the market will most likely be stabilized and due to increased competition, prices should become lower.

Greece you say - my sister lives in Thessaloniki. I shall have to visit her soon to see for myself what it is like in Euroland.

[MRC_Hans]

Denmark is outside too but not for long, I suspect. After having our currency inextricably connected to other EU currencies (lately mostly Euro), for a couple of decades, I see no rational reason to keep having to exchange between currencies with little difference but the name and some fixed, but archaic exchange rate.


Hans

[Brian the Snail]

I moved to Italy 7 months ago, and since then I've been using the Euro. No complaints so far (except for the fact that the 1,2 and 5 cent coins look too much alike). I've also found it very convenient when I've gone up to Germany, no need to bother about conversions and all that.

The Italians I've talked to say that there was a big increase in prices when the euro came in, since retailers tended to round up their prices a lot. So that might be a problem. Things still seem to be incredibly cheap here compared to the UK, though.

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by CWL

Greece you say - my sister lives in Thessaloniki. I shall have to visit her soon to see for myself what it is like in Euroland.

Thessaloniki or Salonika, Madre d'Israel, is the most beautiful city of the Mediterannean :)

We-- my mom's family-- comes from Thessaloniki, we left after WWII though.

I hope that your sister enjoys her staying there.

[Shane Costello]

I say bad, but then I am biased.

Ireland probably made a fatal mistake in joining the euro. We do most of our trade with Britain and America, so a rise in the value of the Euro in relation to the pound or dollar makes our exports more expensive and causes a loss of competitiveness. Not good news for a small open economy. Much the same thing is happening in Germany, AFAIK.

The Euro has also been blamed for a more general rise in prices, although this is probably due to more general inflation than any mark-up by retailers during the changeover. OTOH when the euro was weak in comparison to other currencies, this made our exports very competitive on the international market. However this translated into the highest inflation rate in Europe and an overheated economy. And increased tax revenues for the government which promptly disappeared in a puff of smoke.

The one thing to be said about the Euro is that it allows very easy price comparisons between countries, not just in Europe but also between Europe and the US when the dollar and Euro were at parity.

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by Shane Costello
.

The one thing to be said about the Euro is that it allows very easy price comparisons between countries, not just in Europe but also between Europe and the US when the dollar and Euro were at parity.

Yes this is true and this makes us, the poor countries of the South crazy when we realize that the price of the milk in Athens and in Bonn is the same but our sallary rates are the half of the rest of the countries in the EU. Can you believe that?

[Shane Costello]

Originally posted by Cleopatra:
Yes this is true and this makes us, the poor countries of the South crazy when we realize that the price of the milk in Athens and in Bonn is the same but our sallary rates are the half of the rest of the countries in the EU. Can you believe that?

It's feasible. From what I remember of primary school geography Greece is very rocky and not that well suited to large scale dairy farming. Therefore what milk is produced is likely to be more expensive than that produced in Germany, where there's plenty of lush green grass (presuming that you're thinking about cow's milk). This explains why the Greeks have traditionally looked to the sea for a livliehood, while the Irish raised cattle.

[Cleopatra]

I haven't thought about it but I used milk as an example. Many basic products have the same price in Greece and in other European countries and of course the one who is to blame is the Greek Commerce that took advantage of the Euro to rise the prices. For some goods ( like the vegetables) we are talking about a 60% rise of the prices since the pro-Euro period!!

[Jaggy Bunnet]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
I haven't thought about it but I used milk as an example. Many basic products have the same price in Greece and in other European countries and of course the one who is to blame is the Greek Commerce that took advantage of the Euro to rise the prices. For some goods ( like the vegetables) we are talking about a 60% rise of the prices since the pro-Euro period!!

But surely that is simple common sense? After all if a milk producer can sell his milk in Germany for a higher price than in Greece then, in the absence of any barriers, he will do so.

Surely you would expect basic products, which can be easily transported for low cost, to have the same price across any zone with free trade? All the Euro has done (as opposed to the elimination of trade barriers) is made it easier to buy/sell across borders (reduced exchange rate risk) and made prices more comparable?

[Jon_in_london]

The euro is convienient from the point of view of being a tourist on the cont. It means that its easy for me to say that a beer is the same price in Toledo as Brugge which is one quarter the price of a beer in Paris. Ergo, Paris can go f*ck itself :D :p .

That being that, I dont think its a very good idea as the nations that make up the EU have very divergent economies so its probably not a good idea to have a "one size fits all" trans-european economic policy. Also, I suspect that economic policy will be fiddled to suit the interests of France and Germany at the exoense of less economically powerfull nations (ie: everyone else). Just like CAP!

Basically, IMO, the EU is a corrupt, undemocratic Franco-German Beuro-cracy that I generally think is a waste of EU taxpayers money (provided you arent a Frog or Kraut in which case its prolly a jolly good thing!).

[Cleopatra]

LOL LOL Jon. :D

The poor south has profited by the Frogs and Krauts, you know.For us it was a matter of security as well, Turkey will have difficulties in attacking a member of EU, at least theoretically speaking...

Jaggy I am sorry but I didn't understand the question.

[Jon_in_london]

Cleo, the eur may have the benefit of stability to the "poor south" but I just cant see the advantage to UK.

Im just a bit pissed off with EU at the moment. :(

[Jaggy Bunnet]

Originally posted by Cleopatra

Jaggy I am sorry but I didn't understand the question.

Not sure I do when I read it again!

I think what I was trying to say is that it is unfair of you to blame Greek businesses for increasing the price of their milk as if they were profiteering.

Assuming a free market across Europe, surely you would expect the price of basic goods to be the same in every market, irrespective of local wages? After all if I can sell my milk for $1 in Germany or 50c in Greece, then (assuming that transport costs are negligible) why would I choose to sell it for 50c? Either the price rises in Greece or there is no milk to sell.

[Cleopatra]

No this is exactly what I am saying. I do not expect to have the same prices around Europe since we do not have the same wages but yet it happens!!! Something is wrong with that , don't you think?

[Jaggy Bunnet]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
No this is exactly what I am saying. I do not expect to have the same prices around Europe since we do not have the same wages but yet it happens!!! Something is wrong with that , don't you think?

No, it is exactly what you would expect to happen in a free market.

Simple example, suppose there is only 1 milk producer in Europe. He can choose to sell to a retailer in Germany, who is willing to pay say 90c a litre, or to a retailer in Greece, who is only willing to pay 45c. He will therefore always sell to Germany. If the Greek retailer wants to obtain milk, they must match the price paid in Germany (90c), therefore they have to sell it at the same price as well.

[Shane Costello]

Originally posted by Jaggy Bunnet:
Assuming a free market across Europe, surely you would expect the price of basic goods to be the same in every market, irrespective of local wages? After all if I can sell my milk for $1 in Germany or 50c in Greece, then (assuming that transport costs are negligible) why would I choose to sell it for 50c? Either the price rises in Greece or there is no milk to sell.

It depends on the basic good in question, and milk is an interesting one to pick. Milk is a perishable commodity, and cannot be transported over long distances. Therefore dairying is feasible only if there are sizeable markets nearby. Dairying also requires a certain optimum terrain and agronomoy, which Greece probably lacks. In theory, if it costs 75c to produce a liter of milk in Greece, but only 25c in Germany where costs are much lower then a wide price differential in the price is to be expected, regardless of any salary differential. I don't think that this is Cleopatra's point, however. She was saying (with a lot of justification) that retailers took the opportunity to round prices from the former currencies to Euros up at the time of the changeover.

All the Euro has done (as opposed to the elimination of trade barriers) is made it easier to buy/sell across borders (reduced exchange rate risk) and made prices more comparable?

Not necessarily so. If you are trying to buy or sell across a border not in the Eurozone, then your ability to buy or sell is still dependant on the exchange rate. If the Euro depreciates against sterling say, then clothes in Ireland are going to become more expensive since most of the textiles we buy are sourced in the UK. Likewise if the Euro appreciates then Irish exports are going to become more expensive and less competitive.

[shanek]

Originally posted by Jaggy Bunnet
Simple example, suppose there is only 1 milk producer in Europe. He can choose to sell to a retailer in Germany, who is willing to pay say 90c a litre, or to a retailer in Greece, who is only willing to pay 45c. He will therefore always sell to Germany.

Unless, of course, Germany cannot buy enough milk to use up the supply he has to sell. Then the price will drop.

[Jaggy Bunnet]

Originally posted by shanek


Unless, of course, Germany cannot buy enough milk to use up the supply he has to sell. Then the price will drop.

Absolutely. And the price will drop for all purchasers (in the long run) if there is an excess of supply. However the argument was about whether you would expect the price to be the same across a free trade area or to vary in relation to local wages.

[Jaggy Bunnet]

[i]Originally posted by Shane Costello

It depends on the basic good in question, and milk is an interesting one to pick. Milk is a perishable commodity, and cannot be transported over long distances. Therefore dairying is feasible only if there are sizeable markets nearby. Dairying also requires a certain optimum terrain and agronomoy, which Greece probably lacks. In theory, if it costs 75c to produce a liter of milk in Greece, but only 25c in Germany where costs are much lower then a wide price differential in the price is to be expected, regardless of any salary differential. I don't think that this is Cleopatra's point, however. She was saying (with a lot of justification) that retailers took the opportunity to round prices from the former currencies to Euros up at the time of the changeover.

I am no expert on milk, but is it really that difficult to transport it across Europe? If not, then you would expect no price differential, irrespective of local cost of production or local wages. If the local production costs are too high, then the local producer goes out of business and all milk is imported.

If there is a (time) restriction on transporting milk then you would expect a price differential, but Cleopatra suggests there isn't one.


Not necessarily so. If you are trying to buy or sell across a border not in the Eurozone, then your ability to buy or sell is still dependant on the exchange rate. If the Euro depreciates against sterling say, then clothes in Ireland are going to become more expensive since most of the textiles we buy are sourced in the UK. Likewise if the Euro appreciates then Irish exports are going to become more expensive and less competitive. [/B]

Agree completely - I was referring to a border within the Eurozone.

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by Shane Costello


She was saying (with a lot of justification) that retailers took the opportunity to round prices from the former currencies to Euros up at the time of the changeover.


Yes, this is what I was trying to say, thank you. BTW the milk industry flourishes in Greece, we even export milk in the Balkan countries, we produce a lot of milk especially sheep's milk in order to produce the feta cheese.

[CWL]

Originally posted by Cleopatra


Yes, this is what I was trying to say, thank you. BTW the milk industry flourishes in Greece, we even export milk in the Balkan countries, we produce a lot of milk especially sheep's milk in order to produce the feta cheese.

... and goat's milk. A new personal favourite of mine is saganaki (which was recently introduced in Swedish shops).

[shanek]

Originally posted by CWL
... and goat's milk. A new personal favourite of mine is saganaki (which was recently introduced in Swedish shops).

And don't forget, that crucial emergency backup supply: dog's milk...

[Dragon]

Originally posted by Cleopatra


Yes, this is what I was trying to say, thank you. BTW the milk industry flourishes in Greece, we even export milk in the Balkan countries, we produce a lot of milk especially sheep's milk in order to produce the feta cheese.


Mmmm ... feta cheese, Kalamata olives, juicy ripe tomatoes, rosé wine....
sorry - just thinking of a holiday I had in the Pelopponese a few years ago.

What was the topic? Ah yes the Euro.
Convenient when travelling.
Not sure about the long term effects on the differing economies in the euorzone (which all now have to have the same interest rate).

[CWL]

Originally posted by Dragon

Not sure about the long term effects on the differing economies in the euorzone (which all now have to have the same interest rate).

Hmm... true, but the same applies to the US dollarzone, correct? The difference between the economies of the (current) EU states is in reality not much greater than the difference between the economies of certain US states.

We'll see what happens. Anyway, the current polls indicate a clear Swedish no to the euro.

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by CWL


... and goat's milk. A new personal favourite of mine is saganaki (which was recently introduced in Swedish shops).

Hmmmm saganaki... well this refer to the cooking method and not to the type of the cheese, if you are interested I can PM you the original recipe or now that you are going to Thessaloniki ask for saganaki, they have it in every restaurant :)

Peloponnese?? Where did you go Dragon?

[Mendor]

Originally posted by shanek


And don't forget, that crucial emergency backup supply: dog's milk... Full of goodness. Full of vitamins. Full of marrowbone jelly. Lasts longer than any other type of milk, dog's milk.

(you know the rest)

[Dragon]

Originally posted by Cleopatra


Peloponnese?? Where did you go Dragon?

Stoupa on the Mani peninsula.
Also hired a car for a few days and went to the Diros Caves and Monemvassia.
Beautiful.

[CWL]

Originally posted by Cleopatra


Hmmmm saganaki... well this refer to the cooking method and not to the type of the cheese, if you are interested I can PM you the original recipe or now that you are going to Thessaloniki ask for saganaki, they have it in every restaurant :)

The cooking method and not the cheese? Whaddyaknow. These guys (http://www.fontanafood.se/arkiv_nyhet.asp) would have us Swedes believe otherwise...

Anyhow, please do PM the recipe - or better yet, post it in this thread. Like dear old Jedi Knight used to say - I started this thread so we can derail it if I say so! :D

[shanek]

Originally posted by Mendor
Full of goodness. Full of vitamins. Full of marrowbone jelly. Lasts longer than any other type of milk, dog's milk.

Yeah, 'cos no bugger'll drink it! Plus, the big advantage of dog's milk is that when it goes off it tastes exactly the same as it does when it's fresh.

[Dragon]

Originally posted by CWL


Hmm... true, but the same applies to the US dollarzone, correct? The difference between the economies of the (current) EU states is in reality not much greater than the difference between the economies of certain US states.

We'll see what happens. Anyway, the current polls indicate a clear Swedish no to the euro.

... but the EU is not the United States of Europe and doesn't have the mobility of labour and capital that there is in the US so won't the problems be much worse?

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by Dragon


Stoupa on the Mani peninsula.


Mani??? Like this (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&action=showpost&postid=1870072616) Mani? :cool:

Now, after CWL returns from devine Thessaloniki, I will start a thread where I will have you two praising the places of my origin :cool:

Check the link Dragon.

CWL Saganaki is called the utensil that is used to prepare a couple of dishes and the method is called saganaki after the utensil.

It's a small, swallow frying pan with two handles like ears. Whatever you prepare in saganaki is served in this frying pan, hot. What those Greeks sell to you, CWL ... :p

Ask for mussels saganaki in Thessaloniki and drink a lot of ouzo with it :) It has plenty of vitamins :p

[Mendor]

Originally posted by shanek


Yeah, 'cos no bugger'll drink it! Plus, the big advantage of dog's milk is that when it goes off it tastes exactly the same as it does when it's fresh. And we're done!

We really shouldn't know that off by heart...

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
7 Euros for a package of cigarettes in England?!!!

Anyway the concept was good, we need more time to see how it will turn out.

What have you decided, if I may ask? :)

I thought England didn't use the Euro?

Either way, the reason for the high of ciggies in places such as England and Australia is purely a very high level of tax to discourage smoking.

[peptoabysmal]

Originally posted by Cleopatra

7 Euros for a package of cigarettes in England?!!!


Does that translate to $5.00 in Kalifornia? That's what it costs me and my comrades in the Golden State, (sometimes, you can get 'em for $3.85 if you look around).

[Dragon]

Cleo,

Yes, that Mani. We didn't go that far South, though. Please do start a thread, looking forward to it.

One question before I stop hijacking - Is it true that the Mani is to Greece as Sicily is to Italy?

[CWL]

Originally posted by Dragon


... but the EU is not the United States of Europe and doesn't have the mobility of labour and capital that there is in the US so won't the problems be much worse?

True - the US has a better mobility of labour and capital. One of the reasons for this would of course be the US single currency. It is reasonable to assume that mobility will increase in the Eurozone as well in the long term. Granted, there are language barriers and such but I personally don't think a single European currency hurts...

[CWL]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
Now, after CWL returns from devine Thessaloniki, I will start a thread where I will have you two praising the places of my origin :cool:

I have visited my sister a number of times and I really enjoy Thessaloniki. The museums are increadible (I like museums). When I'm there we often visit Halkdiki - which is simply amazing. Last time I was there we visited the tomb of Phillip II. Again, just amazing.

CWL Saganaki is called the utensil that is used to prepare a couple of dishes and the method is called saganaki after the utensil.

It's a small, swallow frying pan with two handles like ears. Whatever you prepare in saganaki is served in this frying pan, hot. What those Greeks sell to you, CWL ... :p

Well, I enjoy the product so what the heck. :D

Ask for mussels saganaki in Thessaloniki and drink a lot of ouzo with it :) It has plenty of vitamins :p [/B]

What, the Ouzo or the mussels? :p

[Dragon]

Originally posted by CWL


True - the US has a better mobility of labour and capital. One of the reasons for this would of course be the US single currency. It is reasonable to assume that mobility will increase in the Eurozone as well in the long term. Granted, there are language barriers and such but I personally don't think a single European currency hurts...

Actually I tend to agree with you - I think the problem is how we get from here to there without too much pain.

[Cleopatra]

CWL

I hope that you have heard the rumours that what you saw in Vergina is not the tomb of Philip II ( the father of Alexander the Great) ;)

Dragon

Mani has the tradition of vendetta like Sicily indeed although the Maniot Law of vendetta has specific rules that none dares to violate the way they do it in Sicily.

Weird place. You know, for years Englishmen had Maniots to do the ship transportations in the Eastern Mediterranean. They were getting paid in cod fish that's why you can detect some similarities in the "kitchen" of Mani and England.

To return to the topic, the mobility will increase in the Eurozone because of the Euro, the question is the percentage of the European population that can take advantage of it.

For the time being, because of Euro, the great majority at least here is just surviving. For them, a visit to Milan is not in their future plans....

[CWL]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
CWL

I hope that you have heard the rumours that what you saw in Vergina is not the tomb of Philip II ( the father of Alexander the Great) ;)

Really? No? I thought they had a match - even down to Phillip II's one bad leg...

Whose tomb is it then? Phillip's evil twin? Elvis? Someone from Planet X? :p

[CWL]

The "no" camp has a clear lead in the polls. The loudest propagators for a "no" in the Swedish referendum on September 14 derive from the extreme left and extreme right. Basically, their arguments have a rotten aura of intolerance, isolationism and twisted nationalism - and it looks like it's going to pay off this Sunday.

That's not my Sweden. I'm depressed.

[Cleopatra]

What??? Sweden says no????

Why? Did they pass their vacation in UK?

[CWL]

It sure looks like it (http://www.dn.se/DNet/jsp/polopoly.jsp?d=1483&a=179381). The latest polls say about 50 % for "no" and only 39 % for "yes". The rest are undecided.

:(

[ahirst]

It all appears rather confusing, according to the UK newspapers.

On 6 September we had …

'Euro-Swedes mount late surge in polls'.

'A dramatic surge in support for the Yes campaign … has led to predictions it could still win, despite starting out well behind in the polls'.

'In the past week, No campaigners have faltered. Yes campaigners have outgunned them with their bigger spending power'.

It also appears that some politicians have been touting the line that a Yes vote means keeping the option open to join when circumstances suit. Whereas a No vote means never joining.

Methinks a cunning plan, but wait…

On 7 September we have …

'Swedish prime minister Goran Persson appears to be suffering an attack of Scandanavian cold feet'.

'Faced with strong opposition … the former Eurosceptic who has spent a political lifetime converting to the European Union cause attacked France and Germany for undermining the EU stability pact, the keystone of monetary union'.

'"Quite honestly we don't know what to make of it all," said Lotta Hedstrom, an MP with the Swedish Green party'.

However, 'A defeat in the referendum is unlikely to mean the end of Mr Persson's career. Daniel Carlstedt, a No (sic) campaign activist, said, "Just because he is wrong on this issue doesn't make him a bad leader."'

And now (10 September) we have…

'Lavish PR drive turns Swedes against the euro'.

'…the spending might have backfired, playing into the hands of the Left, whose campaign cry is that the euro is a "Rich Man's Project"'.

'Thorbjorn (" on first o) Falladin (" on a) (sic), the former prime minister … switched from the Yes to the No camp this week. "Germany, France, Italy and Portugal haven't stuck by the rules of EMU, and the whole euro system suffers from a lack of democracy. … We can't think of going in until the euro zone is shown to be working."'

But others think …

'Whilst enjoying the illusion of independence outside the euro zone, the country will in reality be forced to follow EU economic policies created in Brussels and Frankfurt, without having any influence.'

Make of that what you will.

All quotes can be found on the Daily Telegraph web site.

[Cleopatra]

CWL

have a look at this thread (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=1870088138#post1870088138) please.

[Jon_in_london]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
What??? Sweden says no????

Why? Did they pass their vacation in UK?

Didnt the Danes also refuse the Euro? Seems like the only people who actually had a referendum refused the euro!

Why is it that Euroskeptics are always slammed as being racscit or intolerant or nationalist? All I want is to be ruled by a democratically elected government that has my nations interestes at heart, not by a Franco-German dominated bunch of corrupt, gravy-train riding, unelected eurocrats!

Why does objecting an institution as currupt and undemocratic as the EU earn me the label of 'Nazi'?!!

[CWL]

Originally posted by Jon_in_london


Didnt the Danes also refuse the Euro? Seems like the only people who actually had a referendum refused the euro!

Why is it that Euroskeptics are always slammed as being racscit or intolerant or nationalist? All I want is to be ruled by a democratically elected government that has my nations interestes at heart, not by a Franco-German dominated bunch of corrupt, gravy-train riding, unelected eurocrats!

Why does objecting an institution as currupt and undemocratic as the EU earn me the label of 'Nazi'?!!

It doesn't. It just so happens that you end up in the company of Nazis if you object to the EU as such.

Define "undemocratic".

[Jon_in_london]

Originally posted by CWL


It doesn't. It just so happens that you end up in the company of Nazis if you object to the EU as such.

Define "undemocratic".

No Nazis round here. So basically, because some Nazis share the belief that the EU is full of crap, by association, I am also a Nazi?


How about 'unelected'?

[CWL]

Originally posted by Jon_in_london
[B]

No Nazis round here. So basically, because some Nazis share the belief that the EU is full of crap, by association, I am also a Nazi?

I don't think you're a Nazi. At least you have said nothing that would lead me to assume that you are. If you got the feeling that I did, I offer you my sincere appologies.

How about 'unelected'?

How about "Council of Ministers"? How do the ministers of the various member countries get to hold their respective offices? How about "European Parliament"? How do the EMP:s get to hold their offices?

How about "elected"?

[Jon_in_london]

Originally posted by CWL

I don't think you're a Nazi. At least you have said nothing that would lead me to assume that you are. If you got the feeling that I did, I offer you my sincere appologies.


Not you, sorry Im just a bit riled at moment because I had an argument with someone who did call me a Nazi because I expressed reservation about the EU.

Originally posted by CWL

How about "Council of Ministers"? How do the ministers of the various member countries get to hold their respective offices? How about "European Parliament"? How do the EMP:s get to hold their offices?

How about "elected"?

Unfortunately I cant tell you how off hand (Although I suspect its due to bribery and horse-trading) One thing I can tell you is that I have never been given the chance to vote for or against a single one of them.

[CWL]

Originally posted by Jon_in_london

Not you, sorry Im just a bit riled at moment because I had an argument with someone who did call me a Nazi because I expressed reservation about the EU.

No worries. I can be rather critical of the EU myself - although I strongly feel that the basic ideas of the union are sound. I feel it is better to be active within the Community in order to push the co-operation in the right direction. The EU is here wether we like it or not. Not participating won't do anything to change that.

Unfortunately I cant tell you how off hand (Although I suspect its due to bribery and horse-trading) One thing I can tell you is that I have never been given the chance to vote for or against a single one of them.

The ministers of the Council are the ministers of the various governments of the Members States, which have been appointed by the respective democratically elected parliaments of the Member States.

The Members of European Parilament are appointed through democratic elections directly by the citizens of the respective Member States.

I personally wouldn't call that undemocratic.

[Giz]

Originally posted by Jon_in_london


Not you, sorry Im just a bit riled at moment because I had an argument with someone who did call me a Nazi because I expressed reservation about the EU.

Unfortunately I cant tell you how off hand (Although I suspect its due to bribery and horse-trading) One thing I can tell you is that I have never been given the chance to vote for or against a single one of them.

The EU as a free trade/free movement block is a good concept. A few generations of closer trading & more travelling and up goes wealth and away goes war.

However: the political union seems to have evolved from the Franco-German desire post WW2 to avoid having another war. Call me an optimist but I can't see another war kicking off (within EU zones - dont mention the Balkans!) so what is the point of the EU political harmonization now?

Is it because a lot of the continental states share a common political view (whether socialist, high tax, centralised or what have you) together with a history of spats and regretable misunderstandings? Is this a reason, in this day and age, for moving the levers of power another step above the common person?

Is there any point in the UK being involved in anything other than a free trade agreement, given that:
- We have a much longer, proven to be stable, democratic tradition than the continental states.
- We have a different economic setup, lower tax (well Gordon B appears to be quietly harmonising us there!), much less state participation - i.e. in pension provision (private, as opposed to France, Germany, Italy etc who face a pensions timebomb that I really hope doesn't end up getting shared around the EU).
- We dont have a record (unlike some) of starting major european wars.
- Our legal system differs, far more similar to US/Oz/Canada etc, than to the EU.

When it comes down to it, most people i've met who support EU political unity seem to do so based on it's (current) majority view, i.e. centre-left, being in agreement with their views and thereby a way of marginalising any UK party's such as the Tory's which they dislike.
One hopes that there's not a change in the composition of political power in the EU that leaves them wishing for a bit more national soveriegnty.

And one more point while i'm ranting! How can we be seen as not being good europeans when the French illegally block the sale of our produce and the Spanish switch between being obstructionist and expansionist over Gibraltar!

Bah! I blow my nose in the general direction of the continent!

[Jon_in_london]

Originally posted by Giz

And one more point while i'm ranting! How can we be seen as not being good europeans when the French illegally block the sale of our produce and the Spanish switch between being obstructionist and expansionist over Gibraltar!


Basically, the French just ignore any EU law/ruling that they dont like and ignore any fines imposed on them.

[Jon_in_london]

Originally posted by CWL

The ministers of the Council are the ministers of the various governments of the Members States, which have been appointed by the respective democratically elected parliaments of the Member States.

The Members of European Parilament are appointed through democratic elections directly by the citizens of the respective Member States.


The appointed council members have much more power than the parliament.

We have had a thousand odd years of progress to get power devolved into the hands of those people we elect directly. Now we have to have that power shifted up and out of the country all together.

The whole thing is a waste of money in anycase, unless you are German or French in which case its quite profitable.

[CWL]

Originally posted by Jon_in_london


The [b] appointed council members have much more power than the parliament.

We have had a thousand odd years of progress to get power devolved into the hands of those people we elect directly. Now we have to have that power shifted up and out of the country all together.
Not the case my friend. Your government is appointed by your parliament. Why is your government more democratic when it makes decisions on national issues than when its ministers participate in decisions on a European level?

The whole thing is a waste of money in anycase, unless you are German or French in which case its quite profitable.

Unless one believes that a common market is quite profitable for anyone wanting to trade.

[Giz]

Originally posted by CWL

Not the case my friend. Your government is appointed by your parliament. Why is your government more democratic when it makes decisions on national issues than when its ministers participate in decisions on a European level?



Unless one believes that a common market is quite profitable for anyone wanting to trade.

But you don't need political union to have a free trade area!!!

[CWL]

Originally posted by Giz


But you don't need political union to have a free trade area!!!

But it helps!!!

[Mendor]

It looks like the final answer was "No", then.