First the Turks now the Australians...

[Cleopatra]

Do you think that Turkey is Greece's only enemy? Ha! It seems that we have a new one!

http://www.mpa.gr/article.html?doc_id=368592

Greece's diplomatic relationships with Australia have always been strong.

In Australia flourishes the biggest Greek population outside of Greece, so as you understand we have always considered Australia as a very friendly country.

After the Sidney Olympics though, something has gotten into our friends and they have lost their minds.

Last week, they asked the Greek government to permit to armed Australian commandos to escort the Australian team to the Olympic Games in Athens, for security reasons... Right!

Now, they will plan to issue a Travel Advice for Greece, one of the safest countries in the Universe!

The dirty mouths talk about corporate Australian interests that are displeased with the fact that the majority of the Olympic preparations are assigned to the Americans and the Brits and they try to exercise pressure by making an issue about the safety of the country and the forthcoming Games.

Since when Australia exercises its foreign affairs in such a questionable way?

[Crossbow]

Excuse me Cleo, but does not Greece have about the worst security of any country in Europe?

I know that issue has come up with their airports many times and there was serious concern about security when Greece was selected to host the Olympics.

After what happened in the 1972 Olympics, I cannot blame people for being a bit worried when their athletes travel abroad.

[Cleopatra]

This is the BIGGEST mistake. Greece has one of the lowest rates of criminality in Europe.

We have different sort of criminality: spouses killing each other mostly... children killing parents etc etc. We have a lot of those but this doesn't concern foreign visitors unless -while visting the country- you decide to get involved with the wife of a Greek, in that case you are not safe indeed.

The only issued we had was during the 80ies with one hijack that started in Greece -- by the PLO guerillas of course and the other issue was with the terrorist group "17 November" who had specific targets and not common people.

"17N" got arrested and trialed.

[Aoidoi]

"17N" got arrested and trialed.Hadn't heard about that. When did it happen? How many did they arrest? Last I heard was that the government couldn't seem to find them... what broke the case?

Just curious, I had thought they were still active over there.

[Cleopatra]

The first member of 17N was arrested in July 8 2002 while he was trying to plug a bomb. The bomb exploded in his hands and this was the beginning of the end...

The Police claims that all of them, including the Head of the organization are arrested.

Since they were active for more than 20 years I am positive that there are more of them out there, people that took part to the first attacks in 1975 and then "retired".

[Aoidoi]

Interesting. Well, if they reported it on this side of the pond I missed it (was probably bumped by the oh so important "Britney not a virgin" reporting ;)). Thanks for the info.

And btw, I can't count how many times I've heard "First the Turks now the Australians..." That goes together like vegemite and lamb kebobs... :D

Edited to add kebobs... they were mysteriously missing from the first post. I think the Australians took them. ;)

[Tricky]

I don't think anyone is really concerned about Greeks causing problems at the Olympics. They are worried about outside agitators, and the ability of Greek security to keep them out. Because of the low criminality in Greece, their police, don't usually have to worry much about security, and so, don't have much experience.

At least, that is my take on the issue. If anything, it is a comment on how peaceful Greece normally is.

[Reaver]

It's Sydney :)

I don't know about all of Australia but I call kebobs, shish kebabs (as opposed to donner).

from the article:
similar travel advice has already been issued for Italy, Spain, and France.
So what's the problem there?

Finally I don't know a thing about Greece's security and the steps it's taken on tighten it for the Olympic games, could someone expand on this please? And I'm talking about from terrorist type threats not somes mum with a rolling pin.

[Crossbow]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
This is the BIGGEST mistake. Greece has one of the lowest rates of criminality in Europe.

We have different sort of criminality: spouses killing each other mostly... children killing parents etc etc. We have a lot of those but this doesn't concern foreign visitors unless -while visting the country- you decide to get involved with the wife of a Greek, in that case you are not safe indeed.

The only issued we had was during the 80ies with one hijack that started in Greece -- by the PLO guerillas of course and the other issue was with the terrorist group "17 November" who had specific targets and not common people.

"17N" got arrested and trialed.

Sorry if I did not make myself clear Cleo, I was not trying to say that the Greek people are dangerous.

However, I was pointing out that due to the poor security of Greek airports there was considerable concern (at least here in the USA anyway) that terrorists from other areas may be able to successfully enter Greece and cause all sorts of trouble.

[Cleopatra]

Well, the whole issue started with United States that every time they wanted to exercise political pressure they brought the vague issue of security in Greece.

Maybe they were right as long as "17N" was in the streets because American diplomats were at the top of the list of those assassins.

Now, as we all know, the Olympics are a huge industry with big financial interests. I remember when we had the issue with the tickets of the Games and the organizing committee was thinking to assign the tickets to a German firm, "Washington Post" published a disgusting article about the security again.

It seems that the Australians feel that have taken a tiny part of the pie and they try to push. Sorry but it's silly. Who are they? I can understand the States exercising political pressure but the Australians??

Now that we are talking, visitors are in danger by those British tourists that they are drunk 24h/24 and they have brought the disaster with them this year. As long as you stay away from them, you don't have any problem.

Our Airports are as safe as the airports in every other country. We had the problems that every country had with PLO in the 80ies. Of course back then, Yasser Arafat was considered something like a local Saint here and the West was right to suspect us because of the extravaganzas we did ( showering Arafat with flowers for example...) but thank God the fashion of wild-socialism is very passe even for Greece...

[Doubt]

Here is what the US State department has to say on Greek safety.

http://travel.state.gov/greece.html


SAFETY AND SECURITY: Civil disorder is rare, although strikes and demonstrations are a regular occurrence. During 2002, Greek authorities made important progress toward alleviating domestic terrorism by arresting and charging 18 alleged members of "November 17." Other left-wing and anarchist groups continue to pose a threat to American commercial interests in Greece, however, through their use of small explosive devices. Travelers should always review their security practices and be alert to their surroundings. Americans are encouraged to check the Consular Affairs home page for updated travel and security information.

CRIME: Crime against tourists (purse-snatchings, pickpocketing) appears to be on the rise at popular tourist sites and on crowded public transportation, particularly in Athens. Reports of date or acquaintance rape have also increased, with most of the offenses occurring on the islands. The usual safety precautions practiced in any urban or tourist area ought to be practiced during a visit to Greece.


I think the big issue for the Aussies is that it took forever to catch anyone from November 17. When they finally did get them it was by luck and not detective work.

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by Doubt

I think the big issue for the Aussies is that it took forever to catch anyone from November 17. When they finally did get them it was by luck and not detective work.

Well, it was a matter of luck indeed although the majority here has a different opinion, we believe that they surrendered in a heroic way...

Anyway. No, the Aussies didn't have any victims by "17 N".

For "17 N" Austalia didn't exist because its policy doesn't affect our country the way the american policy does.

It's just a matter of financial blackmail.

If they feel unsafe they'd better not come for the Olympics.

[Doubt]

1.) Greek security does not have a good reputation because of November 17 and a past history of being soft on the old left wing Arab terrorists.
2.) The Olympics are one big target for any terrorist group because of the nature of the event and large number of TV cameras there to magnify the effect.
3.) Australia has been cooperating with the US and even sent troops to Iraq. This makes them a large target and they are probably not easy to hit on their home soil.

I think they have legitimate concerns. Many countries were worried about Greece hosting the Olympics. We will see how things turn out.

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by Doubt
1.) Greek security does not have a good reputation because of November 17 and a past history of being soft on the old left wing Arab terrorists.

"17N" had specific targets. In 27 years of action only one civilian was killed by accident.

17 N started in 1976 as a movement against the Americans that have established a 7 years Junda that ended with the tragedy in Cyprus.

During the first years of their action, they had the support of the general public because there was a bitter feeling that the responsibles for the Junda and the Cypriot tragedy hadn't been punished, but later and after the country joined EU , Greeks turned their backs to them.

The Olympics are one big target for any terrorist group because of the nature of the event and large number of TV cameras there to magnify the effect.

This is true and this stands for every country that has hosted in the past and it will host the Olympic Games in the future.

Australia has been cooperating with the US and even sent troops to Iraq. This makes them a large target and they are probably not easy to hit on their home soil.

Well, if the American team hasn't asked to be escorted by American armed commandos, then, the request of the Australian government seems ridiculous.

I think they have legitimate concerns. Many countries were worried about Greece hosting the Olympics. We will see how things turn out.

I do not see the legitimate concerns because USA and UK don't seem to share those concerns and Americans and Brits are real potential targets.

I understand that many counties are impatient to see what sort of Games will organize the country that actually established them. We have the ambition that they will be different and they will be within the athletic spirit of the Olympic Games and away of the spirit of commercialization that the previous countries that hosted them failed to keep away.

We will see. :)

[Zep]

This is interesting, Cleo!

For a start, since it is my local newspaper and I read it all day on Sundays, I don't recall seeing any mention in the Sun-Herald about "commandos escorting the Australian team to Athens". And a quick search of the Sun-herald site and sydnicated newspapers reveals nothing of the sort. In fact, all the references to Athens are for recommending holidays and "Olympic special travel deals" and all that sort of stuff - hardly unfriendly at all. So I wonder where that report came from...?! I think you can fairly safely discount it as hyperbole, if not a little fibbing for effect.

Remember that only a year ago we were shocked by the Bali bombing, one of the region's premier tourist destinations. From here (http://famulus.msnbc.com/FamulusIntl/reuters08-27-053202.asp?reg=EUROPE#body)
...Australia's conservative government has issued a blizzard of travel warnings since 88 Australians were among 202 people killed in bomb attacks on nightclubs in the Indonesian resort island of Bali last October.
And these "travel warnings" have been to countries like Spain, Italy, and even Germany at the same time as for Greece!

However it is worth bearing in mind that we DO, at this time, have a federal government that is little more than a waggy little lap-dog to GWB and his conservative cronies. And our current Minister for Foreign Affairs, who handles this sort of business, reminds a lot of us as a wimpy schoolboy so much it is not funny. So perhaps you might like to put these all together, and you will see that it is all probably no more than a storm in a teacup.

No worries, mate! She'll be right, no probs. And whoever thought of putting Vegemite on a souvlaki needs his head read...

[reprise]

The security for the Sydney Olympics was unbelievably tight, due to fears about acts of terrorism (all the rubbish bins were removed from our railway stations) and those Olympics were held prior to 11 September, 2001.

Given our participation in the "coalition of the willing", Australia having been specifically mentioned in statements by terrorist organisations, and the difficulty in staging terrorist attacks against Australians on Australian soil (in a post 11 September, 2001 world, I can't see us getting rubbish bins back on our railway station platforms any time soon), it would be naive of our government to assume that our sporting teams are not likely targets for terrorists. If our government is not satisfied with the security arrangements which have been put in place by the host country of a sporting event, then it is our government's responsibility to either provide adequate security for our competitors or prohibit our sporting teams from competing in international events where security is inadequate.

Our very own football grand finals will be held here in the next few weeks. We are also the host nation for this year's Rugby World Cup. The security for these events will be extreme. As it should be at the 2004 Olympiad.

[a_unique_person]

Since the Bali Bombings, the goverment is taking care to be much more aware of possible terrorist acts.

As for Australian soldiers guarding athletes, one of the security issues for the Australian Olympics was trying to get other countries to not bring their own armed guards into Australia.

[EvilYeti]

Crikey, the shakle-draggers vs. the olive-pickers. I don't know who to root for... or against for that matter.

I like Cleopatra, so I think I'll side with the highboots for now.

[Zep]

You know, in Australian lingo, the verb "to root" has an ENTIRELY different meaning to that which you intended...and it's significantly funnier too! I won't elucidate here... :D

Do we dislike the Greeks that much to want to annoy them like this? "No," he said as he munched another Kalamata olive. Greek culture is now a significant part of Australian culture, as are a number of other nationalities.

We will sort out any problems, of course, but we share too much history and now culture to let this sort of political grandstanding get in the way of a great friendship, Cleo.

[EvilYeti]

Originally posted by Zep
You know, in Australian lingo, the verb "to root" has an ENTIRELY different meaning to that which you intended...and it's significantly funnier too! I won't elucidate here... :D


Haha, yeah I know. I may be Merkin, but I'm no drongo. I love Greek women (don't get to meet to many around here though :( ) so I do root (for) them whenever possible.

[Supercharts]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
This is the BIGGEST mistake. Greece has one of the lowest rates of criminality in Europe.

We have different sort of criminality: spouses killing each other mostly... children killing parents etc etc.

***



Oh, OK.
I see your point.
Good.
I was worried there for a moment.

If it's only children killing their parents and spouses killing one another then, golly, it seems really safe.

:rolleyes:

[Cleopatra]

First of all, foreign soldiers cannot come, it's contrary to our Constitution.

The security of the Games is planned with the help of Americans and Israeli experts. Americans and Israelis are already here and they work with the Greek Special forces.

We have hosted so far other big athletic events, not in the magnitude of Olympic Games of course-nothing compares to them anyway- and we did fine.

We were kind of shocked with this announcement of the Australian government. Americans treat us like that all the time, we are used to it :D

Supercharts, forget it, ok? You are not allowed to come here and steal other people's wives and daughters, you, pervert retriever. Understood? :p

[athon]

Like a few of the others have already said, this is news to me. So it's either been kept quiet, or it's not really big news here.

That said, I guess it wouldn't surprise me. There is an air of paranoia growing in Australia - it's as if our government gauges our global success by how much we are included as a potential terrorist target. Maybe that has something to do with it.

Oh well. I still prefer the names of the old Greek gods over their Roman equivalents. :D

Athon
(and Athanasius is a Greek name! Man, I never realised how Greek I was!)

[Zep]

We were kind of shocked with this announcement of the Australian government. Cleo, my point is I don't think they have actually announced anything like this at all. And I hardly think it would be done without our federal boys crowing about it in some way (they are SUCH gung-ho butch boys!) Can someone point out to me an Australian reference to this if it does exist?

Oh, and the Australian police who worked on Sydney's Olympic security are also assisting with the others on the Athens security. Hey, everyone wants it to be successful!

[reprise]

"We're taking as members of our team four police or former police, one of whom was the commander of the Sydney Olympics village, and they're there to advise out athletes on safety precautions when they go down town."

"They don't have weapons, it's not our own security force and so really I think they've misunderstood what we're doing."

Coates downplays Athens security row (http://news.ninemsn.com.au/Sport/story_51002.asp)

Peter Ryan's opinion of the Athens security arrangements is outlined here (http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,1019880,00.html).

Edited to add link to story on the new travel advisories.

Australia to issue Greece, Germany travel advice (http://famulus.msnbc.com/FamulusIntl/reuters08-27-053202.asp?reg=EUROPE#body)

[Reaver]

Thanks for the links Reprise. I get the feeling that the link at the top of this thread is just a beat-up.

[reprise]

Originally posted by Reaver
Thanks for the links Reprise. I get the feeling that the link at the top of this thread is just a beat-up.

I suspect that there are quite a few people on Australia's Olympic Organising Committee who would like to thumb their noses at the IOC at every opportunity after the experience of being the host nation for the 2000 Olympics, and I have little doubt that some of them would delight in highlighting anything which makes the IOC look incompetent.

[Supercharts]

Originally posted by Cleopatra

Supercharts, forget it, ok? You are not allowed to come here and steal other people's wives and daughters, you, pervert retriever. Understood? :p

OKaaaaaayyy...
I'll leave your wives and daughters alone. Promise!

(Can I still sniff your butt? For old times sake?)

[fhios]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
This is the BIGGEST mistake. Greece has one of the lowest rates of criminality in Europe.

Two thoughts:

1) They May have a reason to believe someone may be planning something for the olympics specifically, in which case Greece's low crime rate would be irrelevent.

2) Is bigotry a possible motive for this? There is a large Greek minority in Australia, but I've been told they are not always treated well.

Thoughts?

[reprise]

Originally posted by fhios


Two thoughts:

1) They May have a reason to believe someone may be planning something for the olympics specifically, in which case Greece's low crime rate would be irrelevent.

2) Is bigotry a possible motive for this? There is a large Greek minority in Australia, but I've been told they are not always treated well.

Thoughts?

I think it's a mistake to assume that any misgivings about security for the Athens Olympics are specifically related to them being held in Greece. These Olympics present one of the biggest terrorist targets since 11 September, 2001 - and they would be a prime target no matter which nation was hosting them.

The criticism of our government following last year's bombing in Bali was scathing. Even in the absence of specific threats, Australians are demanding to know about the general security levels in various countries throughout the world.

While Greeks and Italians bore the brunt of prejudice directed towards new Australians during my childhood, they've long since been replaced at the bottom of the migrant pecking order by Asian migrants, Middle Eastern migrants, and Pacific Islanders.

In cities like Melbourne and Sydney, newly arrived Greek and Italian migrants are relatively rare compared to migrants from other ethnic backgrounds.

Offhand, I can't think of any nation to which I'd be willing to send an Olympic team without checking and rechecking the adequacy of security arrangements many times. It would be naive to think that such an event isn't going to make an extremely tempting target for those who'd like to thumb their noses at the war on terror but are unable to formulate a plan for staging a significant terrorist attack on the home soil of those nations which are part of the "coalition of the willing".

[Zep]

Originally posted by fhios
2) Is bigotry a possible motive for this? There is a large Greek minority in Australia, but I've been told they are not always treated well.

Thoughts? They weren't in years gone by, that's true. The contemporary term for Greeks, or indeed any Mediterranean or Middle Eastern immigrant, was "wogs" and it wasn't a kind term either.

However we do think we have grown a long way since then (not everyone has, of course, but most of us have). And they have taken on this previously derogatory term as a sort of badge - they are Wog Boys and Wog Girls. We of Anglo-Saxon origin are, in turn, "skips" - from the dinky 70's TV series "Skippy, the Bush Kangaroo". And we got on fine for the most part from there!

Example! (http://www.effie.com.au/)

[Cleopatra]

I think that the problem is not about the Security but about money. Everybody knows that a country is not alone in preparing the Olympics.

Stupid antisemite Greeks, for example have no idea that they are paying the Israeli Army to train the special forces. The Israelis were imposed by the Americans of course.

BUT the organizing committee cannot please everybody and we have certain obligations towards the countries of EU. According to the European Legislation we have to assign to them the big projects, so Brits and Germans get the largest part of the pie.

As for the racism of the Australians I have heard about the mobs too but they use the same phrase in England too, also I have never heard complains about Australians the way I have heard about Germans for example.

The Greeks of Australia are very proud about their second country, they really love it and I find amazing that very few of them consider to return back,on the contrary in the States the Greeks live with the dream to return home.

This is one of the reasons I want to visit Australia, I am curious to see the country that doesn't make Greeks to dream to return home and the other reason is that I really want to kiss the nose of a kangaroo. :)

[Mr Manifesto]

I think the Whiteys and Wogs have come a long way together (I'll get to why I've used the politically incorrect term in a minute). When I was in Melbourne for the Melbourne Film Festival, I was on a tram (brilliant public transport network, BTW, didn't even think about a hire car the whole time I was there and I never waited more than 15 minutes for a tram) and there were a pair of Greeks speaking the native lingo.
This rather drunk so-and-so started saying, "Please, we're in Australia, is it too much to ask to speak English on a tram?"
I said, "It's none of your business what language they're speaking."
"Yes it is."
"No it isn't. You're being racist."
"Do you have a job? Do you have a job?"
"Yes."
"What? Doing what?"
"None of your business."
"All I want is for people to speak English. We're on an Australian tram..."
But he didn't get to finish because all of a sudden about a dozen people were telling him to shut up with far less sublety than I was. He realised he'd have to take on the whole tram, possibly physically. I was thanked by people when I got off at my stop.

So, there are still people who have to be racist, but you get that everywhere.

There was a movement in the '80's by some Greek comedians who took the word "Wog" away from the racists and made it friendly- a light jab at the most. They did a series of plays (I think, I never saw them because I was too young) called "Wogs out of Work" and similar. Some may even have seen a movie made by some of the comedians, "The Wog Boy".

Rodney Rude, a comedian known for being offensive, released a song which said "I made not be a wog but I look like one" which seemed to me to be a light-hearted jab at wogs. IIRC the song that wogs were nice unlike Queensland police (Rodney had always had run-ins with QLD cops).

I think it was the comedians that basically helped make people realise that Wogs are people too. Now we need some Middle-East comedians, and a few more Asian ones.

[Zep]

This is one of the reasons I want to visit Australia, I am curious to see the country that doesn't make Greeks to dream to return home and the other reason is that I really want to kiss the nose of a kangaroo.

(A) Our climate is sort of Mediterranean, so it is LIKE being home anyway.

(B) Are you SURE you want to do that?? :confused:

[Cleopatra]

Zep!!!!!!!!!!

What a wonderful photo!!!!!!!! :)

I love the noses of the animals and after that photo I certainly want to kiss the nose of a kangaroo :)

Edited to add: Nothing is like home :)

Here things are small the distances are short and you can touch, smell and taste everything. Your country is vast and unique in its own way.

[CapelDodger]

I have this picture of a group of dedicated terrorists making meticulous plans to blow up a stadium in Athensthen finding it hasn't been built yet.

More seriously, I doubt if al-Qaeda will be looking to attack the Olympics. The very fact that it's so high-profile means that it isn't a soft target. It's not natural territory for them either. There's probably more danger from groups like ETA and the Chechens.

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by CapelDodger
I have this picture of a group of dedicated terrorists making meticulous plans to blow up a stadium in Athensthen finding it hasn't been built yet.


hahahahahahaha

Come-on things aren't THAT bad :)

[CapelDodger]

from Celopatra:
Come-on things aren't THAT bad ] :)
Welsh atheletes have been told to bring a pick so they can dig a cave to sleep in. That may have more to do with funding than Greek efficiency but all the same, I worry. I like Olympics that are on early in my morning, so I can watch other people exhausting themselves in a pointless pursuit before going to work. I find it invigorating.

[Zep]

Originally posted by Cleopatra Zep!!!!!!!!!!

What a wonderful photo!!!!!!!! :)

I love the noses of the animals and after that photo I certainly want to kiss the nose of a kangaroo :)

But it's covered in kangaroo snot! Euurch! Pffft pffft! Do you KNOW where that nose has been??? No, not for me.

Edited to add: Nothing is like home :)

Here things are small the distances are short and you can touch, smell and taste everything. Your country is vast and unique in its own way.

Contrary to the travel shows, Australia is just as urbanised as Europe and America, in fact more so. You could easily walk only a few miles around Sydney or Melbourne and run the whole gamut of our immigrant cultural heritage - Greek, Italian, Lebanese, Turkish, Sri Lankan, Indian, Vietnamese, Chinese, Korean, Pacific Islanders, etc.