Does walking on fire or broken glass qualify?

[bratok]

Hi,
Any idea if walking on burning coles, smashed glass, sharp nails, holding hands in fire, etc :j2: ... ( without any consequences, of course ) does qualify?


Thanx

[roger]

The mechanism for these acts are well known and understood; there is nothing paranormal about them. Thus, they would not be eligible for the challenge.

[bratok]

Originally posted by roger
The mechanism for these acts are well known and understood; there is nothing paranormal about them. Thus, they would not be eligible for the challenge.
What do you think is the mechanism of this acts? As I understand, it is that the one doing them tells his subcounciouse that "I am fire, so fire can't hurt me!" and it really doesn't hurt him.


Thanx

[arcticpenguin]

There's an entry on firewalking in the Skeptic's Dictionary (http://www.skepdic.com/firewalk.html)

... Thus, even if the coals are very hot (1,000 to 1,200 degrees), a person with "normal" soles won't get burned as long as he or she doesn't take too long to walk across the coals and as long as the coals used do not have a very high heat capacity. Volcanic rock and certain wood embers will work just fine...

[roger]

bratok,

I am under a bit of a time crunch here, so let me address only walking on coals. I'm sure other members can fill you in on your other examples.

Walking on coals is mainly a function of the low heat capacity of coals. This link (http://home.xnet.com/~blatura/skep_6.html) describes it in not too scientific language. However, let me offer you a very similar example:

Heat your oven to 400 degrees F.
Heat a piece of metal to 300 degrees F.

Put your arm in the oven for 5 seconds. You do not get burned.
Put your hand on the piece of metal for 5 seconds. You end up badly burned, with blisters.

Why do you get burned by the metal, but not the air, even though the metal is much cooler than the air? Because the air has low heat capacity, ie it can't transfer a lot of heat quickly to your arm. Given enough time, 15 minutes say, you will end up cooked, but nothing much happens in only 5 seconds. The metal, however, is very efficient at conducting heat, and contains a lot of heat (heat capacity), and so it burns you very quickly.

The coals work a lot like the air in your oven - they are not efficient at transfering heat to your bare feet.

Please note my answer is not especially scientifically precise - I was aiming at getting the general idea to you, not to present a rigorous scientific explanation.

In short, anyone can walk on coals whether they believe it works or not, as long as the coal bed is prepared correctly. And conversely, if they coal beds are not prepared properly (so the coals have low heat capacity), well, people get burned, whether they believe they will be burned or not.

I hope this clarifies things. Seach google for "fire walking" if you need more information.

roger

[bratok]

Oh, I see. But, for example, putting out a burning cigarette against ones hand, without useing any isolators, of course. Or walking on sharp, broken glass :confused: ?

I.e. doing something without getting hurt, that, someone else doing, would get hurt.

Well, just saw a Yog doing this things and he said that he's telling his subcounciouse, and makeing it believe, like "I am fire, so I cannot get hurt by fire" or "I am water, so I cannot get hurt by sharp objects" and also doing some exercises to make more seem like the substance he wants to be. Moveing in the same rythim with a flickering flame, for example...


Thanx

[Starrman]

I.e. doing something without getting hurt, that, someone else doing, would get hurt.

Here's the kicker, if someone else did exaclty what the Yoga did, they would not get hurt either. It is a magic trick dressed up in mysticism.

QUOTE]Well, just saw a Yog doing this things and he said that he's telling his subcounciouse, and makeing it believe, like "I am fire, so I cannot get hurt by fire" or "I am water, so I cannot get hurt by sharp objects" and also doing some exercises to make more seem like the substance he wants to be. Moveing in the same rythim with a flickering flame, for example...[/QUOTE]

Next time the Yoga says he is water, hit him in the head with a sledgehammer. If he is still not hurt, I'll give you the million myself.

[uneasy]

Also, the argument has been made that JREF shouldn't accept applicants for feats that will edanger anyone (see threads on people offering to live without eating). This would fall into that category also. So even if they wanted to walk across very hot aluminum (very conductive), I doubt it would be accepted.

[bratok]

Originally posted by Starrman
Here's the kicker, if someone else did exaclty what the Yoga did, they would not get hurt either. It is a magic trick dressed up in mysticism.
Hmm... do you think all Yogas are just performing tricks?

For example, I also saw a Yoga who was diagnosing people. He sat in front of me, spinning a bend metal rod in his hands. He started calling organs ( from top down ) and in a few seconds, how this organ is working. Like "Brain, left hemisphere... perfect!", etc.

1. During this, I had a strange, but pleasant feeling in this organ. Maybe something as if lots of small, cold needles touching it. But a very pleasant and gantle feeling.
So I don't believe that an ordinary person, without any powers or skills, can cause this feeling in another person.

2. He got everything right.
All he had at first was my name, but he told me everything correct about my health at that moment.

How would you explain that :confused: ?


Thanx

[arcticpenguin]

Originally posted by bratok

Hmm... do you think all Yogas are just performing tricks?

For example, I also saw a Yoga who was diagnosing people. He sat in front of me, spinning a bend metal rod in his hands. He started calling organs ( from top down ) and in a few seconds, how this organ is working. Like "Brain, left hemisphere... perfect!", etc.

1. During this, I had a strange, but pleasant feeling in this organ. Maybe something as if lots of small, cold needles touching it. But a very pleasant and gantle feeling.
So I don't believe that an ordinary person, without any powers or skills, can cause this feeling in another person.

2. He got everything right.
All he had at first was my name, but he told me everything correct about my health at that moment.

How would you explain that :confused: ?


Thanx
I never saw any of that, so I have nothing to explain. But if you had serious problems in any internal organs, wouldn't you be in the hospital instead of visiting a yogi?

[Starrman]

Hmm... do you think all Yogas are just performing tricks?

Yes

For example, I also saw a Yoga who was diagnosing people. He sat in front of me, spinning a bend metal rod in his hands. He started calling organs ( from top down ) and in a few seconds, how this organ is working. Like "Brain, left hemisphere... perfect!", etc.

So what.

1. During this, I had a strange, but pleasant feeling in this organ. Maybe something as if lots of small, cold needles touching it. But a very pleasant and gantle feeling.

1) You could be lying, or not be who you say you are at all
2) You could be remembering wrong
3) The Yoga mentioning the organ may have caused your brain to think about it and made you acutely aware of it.
4) The Yoga's magic stick sent out an invisible beam that touched the organ, then went back to the Yoga and told him that your organ was fine.

Which do you think is the most likely explanation? I think it is #1, but that is irrelevant.

2. He got everything right.
All he had at first was my name, but he told me everything correct about my health at that moment.


1) You could be lying, or not be who you say you are at all
2) You could be remembering wrong
3) He could have guessed and got it right
4) Did you verify what he said with a doctor, maybe you don't remember your medical history correctly
5) The Yoga used a piece of metal to send chi into your body and communicate with your organs and body. Your body remembered its history as accurately as you did and sent the beam back to the Yoga and he told you.

Which do you think is the most likely explanation? Guess which one I think it is?

I saw David Copperfield fly across the Grand Canyon on TV. How do explain that!

[roger]

Originally posted by bratok
Hmm... do you think all Yogas are just performing tricks?

For example, I also saw a Yoga who was diagnosing people. He sat in front of me, spinning a bend metal rod in his hands. He started calling organs ( from top down ) and in a few seconds, how this organ is working. Like "Brain, left hemisphere... perfect!", etc.

This sort of thing would be applicable to the challenge, unlike firewalking.

1. During this, I had a strange, but pleasant feeling in this organ. Maybe something as if lots of small, cold needles touching it. But a very pleasant and gantle feeling.
So I don't believe that an ordinary person, without any powers or skills, can cause this feeling in another person.

How would I explain this? Power of suggestion. But there is no point in us going back and forth on what the cause was, because this is easily tested. Briefly, the yoga tries to make one of your organ tingle w/o telling you which one, and you guess which one he is targeting. (the experiment needs proper controls, but that's the gist of it).

Fact is, no one has ever passed this kind of thing, and the power of suggestion to cause this kind of effect has been amply proven, so, I go with power of suggestion until shown otherwise. In other words, when there are 2 explanations, choose the simpler one.


2. He got everything right.
I wonder how you know? How do you know that you don't have, say, parasites in your liver that he didn't detect.

He may have gotten lucky. He may have been cold reading you (look at some of the threads on here about John Edwards to learn about cold reading).

There are lots of ways these things are done. Hang around here awhile and you'll start learning them.

Anyway, this skill can be easily tested. If he passes a scientificially controlled test, then I'll believe it is true.


bartok, remember just a few hours ago when you believed that fire walking was real until you learned there was another explanation? I'm not trying to be rude, but doesn't this show you that if you don't know something, that it is unwise to draw conclusions about the cause of the effect? In this case, you don't know how the yoga might have accomplished what he did, yet you decide you " don't believe an ordinary person ... can cause this".

It's good to ask questions about things like this, just be careful about drawing conclusions before you have the evidence. Sorry if I sound pompous; I don't mean to.

roger

[bratok]

I never saw any of that, so I have nothing to explain. But if you had serious problems in any internal organs, wouldn't you be in the hospital instead of visiting a yogi?
No, no serios problems at all! Had this more like for fun, to see what he's capable of.

>>1) You could be lying, or not be who you say you are at all
Nope

>>2) You could be remembering wrong
Nope

>>3) He could have guessed and got it right
Also don't think so

>>4) Did you verify what he said with a doctor, maybe you don't remember your medical history correctly
He mostly told me about old traumas that I had. Like a broken colorbone or was hit with something on the left side of my head, etc...

>>5) The Yoga used a piece of metal to send chi into your body and communicate with your organs and body. Your body remembered its history as accurately as you did and sent the beam back to the Yoga and he told you.
As I was later explained, but didn't really understand, he used this metal rod as a "visualisator" to "see" my organs, like some color or shineing around them... I don't know, Aura maybe?

>>This sort of thing would be applicable to the challenge, unlike firewalking.

As I also found here Randi is turning off many candidates and some poeple are thinking that he has no intention of giveing anybody this million or, what is probably even worth for him, accepting that this "powers" exist.


Good Luck!

[BTox]

Originally posted by bratok

Hmm... do you think all Yogas are just performing tricks?

Yes, they are magicians, nothing more.

Originally posted by bratok


For example, I also saw a Yoga who was diagnosing people. He sat in front of me, spinning a bend metal rod in his hands. He started calling organs ( from top down ) and in a few seconds, how this organ is working. Like "Brain, left hemisphere... perfect!", etc.

1. During this, I had a strange, but pleasant feeling in this organ. Maybe something as if lots of small, cold needles touching it. But a very pleasant and gantle feeling.
So I don't believe that an ordinary person, without any powers or skills, can cause this feeling in another person.

So you had this feeling in your brain when he said "brain, left hemisphere, perfect!"? Just a psychosomatic reaction on your part.

Originally posted by bratok


2. He got everything right.
All he had at first was my name, but he told me everything correct about my health at that moment.

How would you explain that :confused: ?


Power of suggestion, lucky guesses. Psychic tricks are very easy to pull off.

[uneasy]

Originally posted by bratok

Hmm... do you think all Yogas are just performing tricks?

{stuff}

How would you explain that :confused: ?


Nobody has to explain that. That guy just needs to take the JREF challenge and get a million bucks. Simple as that. Don't post excuses as to why not please, we've heard them all before.

[Starrman]

I suggested:
>>2) You could be remembering wrong

Your response:
Nope

You are a true believer. You wont even acknowledge the possibility that you are mistaken about how it happened. You put to much trust in the power of human memory.

Even if you are remembering correctly, why bring something as goofy as 'Auras' into the equation? What about the numerous other explanations offered?

[bratok]

You are a true believer. You wont even acknowledge the possibility that you are mistaken about how it happened. You put to much trust in the power of human memory.
Hmm... I remamber very well that after he called out an organ and started spinning the metal rod, I felt that feeling in the organ he called out and then he would say about this organ.


Thanx

[Starrman]

I stand corrected, how could I have ever doubted you (whoever you are).

[gnome]

Originally posted by bratok
As I also found here Randi is turning off many candidates and some poeple are thinking that he has no intention of giveing anybody this million or, what is probably even worth for him, accepting that this "powers" exist.

I wouldn't expect somone that poked holes in people's pet beliefs in the powers they imagine they have to be popular. I would expect him to be even less popular with those that are deliberate charlatans.

If I were a person of the first type, I would usually rather believe that Randi was not sincere than question my beliefs. If I were a charlatan, I would claim so loudly in order to avoid testing my own claim. So the fact that people say they don't think Randi to be sincere means nothing without specific evidence or arguments, which we are more than happy to discuss and have been all along.

[glee]

Originally posted by bratok
Hmm... I remamber very well that after he called out an organ and started spinning the metal rod, I felt that feeling in the organ he called out and then he would say about this organ.

Thanx

Have a look for 'eyewitness testimony' on a search engine.
Soon you will found why courts are very reluctant to rely on just people's memories.

In your case, you seem keen to believe that there is a category of people called 'Yogis' who have mystic powers not available to the rest of us (e.g. reading auras).
As far as I know there is precisely zero scientific evidence for this belief - just anecdotes from people like yourself who are romantically inclined to trust the Yogi.

[Jon_in_london]

Originally posted by bratok


1. During this, I had a strange, but pleasant feeling in this organ.

:dl:

He could make a lot of money out of that!

[Kevin_Lowe]

Houdini wrote extensively about "fire eaters" and other performers who demonstrated amazing resistance to heat.

They seemed to eat hot coals, pour molten metal on to their tongues and hold it there until it solidified, and do a variety of other very neat stunts.

It's a matter of conditioning the body to get used to heat, using chemical treatments on the body parts handling the hot objects, and (most of all) using props that look hotter than they are.

I haven't seen someone put out a cigarette on themselves, but it's a petty stunt compared to real fire-resistance performances. If people can do much better with trickery, there's no good reason to believe the small stuff is supernatural.

[Skeptical Greg]

Originally posted by bratok
Hi,
Any idea if walking on burning coles, smashed glass, sharp nails, holding hands in fire, etc :j2: ... ( without any consequences, of course ) does qualify?


Thanx

If someone has special powers that enable them to walk on hot coals, why wouldn't that same power enable them to sit on hot coals?

[UnrepentantSinner]

Originally posted by bratok
Hmm... I remamber very well that after he called out an organ and started spinning the metal rod, I felt that feeling in the organ he called out and then he would say about this organ.

Thanx

Am I the only one who's never felt anything in any of his organs other than my lungs and stomach? I'm not even sure I feel it in my bladder when I need to tinkle, the sensation comes from farther down the urethra.

[Torlack]

Originally posted by UnrepentantSinner


Am I the only one who's never felt anything in any of his organs other than my lungs and stomach? I'm not even sure I feel it in my bladder when I need to tinkle, the sensation comes from farther down the urethra.

:roll:

It mostly comes with age.

[asthmatic camel]

Originally posted by UnrepentantSinner


Am I the only one who's never felt anything in any of his organs other than my lungs and stomach? I'm not even sure I feel it in my bladder when I need to tinkle, the sensation comes from farther down the urethra.

For your sake US, I hope you never get a kidney stone. You'd feel that. Lots.

[roger]

Originally posted by UnrepentantSinner
Am I the only one who's never felt anything in any of his organs other than my lungs and stomach? I'm not even sure I feel it in my bladder when I need to tinkle, the sensation comes from farther down the urethra.

Well, I feel pain in my brain when I read some of the posts in this forum (not yours!!).

[Torlack]

Originally posted by asthmatic camel


For your sake US, I hope you never get a kidney stone. You'd feel that. Lots.

I second that. I just had my first one a few months ago.


:confused: :eek: :o :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[uruk]

I don't know if this is relavent, but I used to jog 3 miles a day barefooted. The callouses built up so hard on the souls of my feet that I literaly could walk on glass without feeling anyting or suffering any seriouse cuts. Just as long as the glass wasn't too thick or the pieces too long.

And yep, they used to call me Fred Flintstone.

[scribble]

I saw the topic of walking on glass addressed previously - I believe it was on an episode of Penn and Teller's ********, and excellent show which I highly recommend and addresses many other questions you may not have known you had.

My memory fails me (all too often) but I do recall quite vivdly that they illustrated it was a trick anyone could do, much like walking on fire.

-Chris

[billydkid]

Originally posted by bratok
Oh, I see. But, for example, putting out a burning cigarette against ones hand, without useing any isolators, of course. Or walking on sharp, broken glass :confused: ?

I.e. doing something without getting hurt, that, someone else doing, would get hurt.

Well, just saw a Yog doing this things and he said that he's telling his subcounciouse, and makeing it believe, like "I am fire, so I cannot get hurt by fire" or "I am water, so I cannot get hurt by sharp objects" and also doing some exercises to make more seem like the substance he wants to be. Moveing in the same rythim with a flickering flame, for example...


Thanx It total BS. Don't be dense. As for the glass walking thing - wow, I saw them doing that on that US TV program Fear Factor. Funny how all those contestants suddenly developed supernatural ability. I say, hey, if you can walk on SHARP, BROKEN glass - in other words, if you can will your skin not to be cut by sharp objects, why do something really spectacular and let spectators go at you with machetes. or why not stick you head into a meat grinder and see what happens.

[Pyrrho]

Kids, don't try any of the stunts described in this thread...when they are performed, they are performed by skilled professionals. The unskilled who tried them ain't around to play yogi any more.

Some of these tricks are described in Jearl Walker's The Flying Circus of Physics

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/047102984X/102-6527516-2663310?v=glance

Walker used to do firewalking himself to demonstrate physics, until the one time he screwed up and severely burned his feet. Up to that point he'd done it successfully many times, no magical powers required. It is not a stunt to take lightly.

Ah. Oh yes. I never explain anecdotes.

[Denise]

Originally posted by uruk
I don't know if this is relavent, but I used to jog 3 miles a day barefooted. The callouses built up so hard on the souls of my feet that I literaly could walk on glass without feeling anyting or suffering any seriouse cuts. Just as long as the glass wasn't too thick or the pieces too long.

And yep, they used to call me Fred Flintstone.

When I was a kid I never wore shoes unless I absolutely had to. I could walk around on the snow for 20 minutes or so in the winter, and cross hot tar in the summer. Not for too long though! I wonder what a person's skin would look like if they never wore shoes and what kind of environment they could handle without shoes.

[nwmadden]

Originally posted by UnrepentantSinner


Am I the only one who's never felt anything in any of his organs other than my lungs and stomach? I'm not even sure I feel it in my bladder when I need to tinkle, the sensation comes from farther down the urethra.

Slighly off topic but: Nope I was the same until a few years ago until I had kidney stones. The stones were zapped by a spot of lithotripsy and they are gone now. But since then, I know exactly where my kidneys are, and what I would have used to interpret as a random feeling in my side I can now pin-point as being a feeling my kidneys. So that's at least 1 more organ I can differenciate. I agree with your comment though. :)

Neil

[Edit]

Oops, looks like I wasn't the first to mention the old kidney stones. Looks like we have more than just a skeptic life in common guys.

[nwmadden]

Originally posted by Denise


When I was a kid I never wore shoes unless I absolutely had to. I could walk around on the snow for 20 minutes or so in the winter, and cross hot tar in the summer. Not for too long though! I wonder what a person's skin would look like if they never wore shoes and what kind of environment they could handle without shoes.

Agreed, when I was younger I did a month of barefoot work on a gravel ridden farm in France. By the end of that month my feet had grown leather soles for themselves. :)

It doesn't take long to build up hard feet, but it looks like with all the facts about heat capacity etc, they aren't even needed to do these tricks.

Neil