Israel vs. Hezbollah - Who the [8] are the terrorists???

[Oliver]

I grew up with Terror-News from the Middle-East and I pretty much ignored this annoying Issue until recently. If I look at this crap down there in a neutral way, I consider the initial way of Israel to occupy their "Holy" pile of dust and sand as a terroristic act - just like if the native Americans (http://www.accessgenealogy.com/native/washington/index.htm) would occupy Washington and declare their own Country because it was their former Homeland.

Now even if this sounds straightway stupid to imagine that - even if it's pretty similar to the Zionism Idea, I have a hard time to see who the Terrorists are seeing the cruelty on both sides.

Anyway: My question is:

What is your Idea to settle this Piece of annoying [Rule8] conflict once and for all?

[Pardalis]

Anyway: My question is:

What is your Idea to settle thisPiece of annoying [Rule8] conflict once and for all?



You stay out of it.

[WildCat]

If I look at this crap down there in a neutral way,
If "ifs" and "buts" were candy and nuts, what a wonderful Christmas it would be!

[jsiv]

I figure killing every last member of Hizb'Allah would be a good start.


I don't think Israel is on stolen Hizballahian land though.

[jsiv]

I grew up with Terror-News from the Middle-East and I pretty much ignored this annoying Issue until recently. If I look at this crap down there in a neutral way, I consider the initial way of Israel to occupy their "Holy" pile of dust and sand as a terroristic act - just like if the native Americans (http://www.accessgenealogy.com/native/washington/index.htm) would occupy Washington and declare their own Country because it was their former Homeland.


Since Israel is already there, a more fitting comparison would be the muslim terrorists trying to occupy Israel and make it their own because it was the former homeland of some of their ancestors.

[WildCat]

Those nutty Jews, leaving the countries they were in just because the other people in them were killing them for having the nerve to be born. How silly and nutty! They should have just taken their genocide like god intended them to. Those Jews are freaking nuts, especially going to the place they were given by the United Nations with the assent of the country that held the place legitimately. How nutty and crazy! The whole thing about being refugees from genocides in Europe, Asia, and North Africa is silly silly silly! Anyone else would have just sat back and been killed like rational little lemmings, instead of that nutty fleeing for their lives and other such silly shenanigans. What a bunch of nuts! And then they were so nutty they defended their new country when they were attacked! Crazy stuff isn't it? Those nutty Jews! It's all so silly. :rolleyes:

[webfusion]

*snip*
I don't think Israel is on stolen Hizballahian land though.


Think again.
http://www.shebaafarms.org/briefhistory.html

[jsiv]

Think again.
http://www.shebaafarms.org/briefhistory.html


They don't really care about the Shebaa Farms.

[gtc]

Oliver,

You obviously have no idea who Hezbollah are or what they want. Nor do you have any idea how and why Israel was formed.

I suggest you read up on the topic and come back to this thread when you have.

[webfusion]

In answer to the penultimate question of this OP ---

The Israelis are listening to the Saudis, and asking the Saudis to come to the table in a major Summit Conference.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/888450.html

The point? The Saudi initiative offers Israel normalized relations with all Arab countries in return for full withdrawal from the territory Israel captured in 1967.

That's the crux.

[webfusion]

They don't really care about the Shebaa Farms.

Who doesn't care -- Israel?

The Israelis consider the zone a natural part of the Golan Heights, and as such, it's Syrian territory.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/780977.html
The status of the territory on the slopes of Mount Hermon is disputed by Lebanon, Syria and Israel and its boundaries have never been precisely defined.

[jsiv]

Who doesn't care -- Israel?


Hizballah. You're not gonna convince me that that little chunk of land is what they're really "fighting for."

[Damien Evans]

What a stupid question.

Internationally recognised state with army, or non recognised nutcases with guns, which are the terrorists?

Gee, I can't tell...

[Gurdur]

What a stupid question.
Internationally recognised state with army, or non recognised nutcases with guns, which are the terrorists?
Gee, I can't tell...


Not a smart answer of yours whatsoever. Russia is an internationally recognised state with an army, and it behaved terroristically in Chechyna; Germany 1942 ditto against unofficial partisans anywhere in its occupied territories; etc. etc. etc.

[Gurdur]

You stay out of it.

The best answer to Oliver so far.

[Damien Evans]

Not a smart answer of yours whatsoever. Russia is an internationally recognised state with an army, and it behaved terroristically in Chechyna; Germany 1942 ditto against unofficial partisans anywhere in its occupied territories; etc. etc. etc.

erm, uh...

Good point:o

[Gurdur]

erm, uh...

Good point:o



You're trying to get me off your case by suddenly being all reasonable, aren't you? Huh, huh, huh.

Oh well, here's hoping for a miracle that Oliver suddenly becomes reasonable too. Now I gotta shuffle off and find my asprin bottle. Since I encountered Oliver I've been buying asprin in bulk.

[Damien Evans]

You're trying to get me off your case by suddenly being all reasonable, aren't you? Huh, huh, huh.

Oh well, here's hoping for a miracle that Oliver suddenly becomes reasonable too. Now I gotta shuffle off and find my asprin bottle. Since I encountered Oliver I've been buying asprin in bulk.

You need to upgrade man, get some codeine...;)

[Gurdur]

I dislike suppression of CNS activity.

[webfusion]

Hizballah. You're not gonna convince me that that little chunk of land is what they're really "fighting for."

It's a major component. Israel has been battling Hezbollah in that specific salient for many years.

In the two Lebanese towns closest to the disputed area, Shebaa and Kfar Shouba, few people consider the Shebaa Farms to be worth fighting for. Local residents deeply resent the Hezbollah guerrillas who have attacked Israeli forces from positions nearby, drawing Israeli retaliatory fire.

http://www.meib.org/articles/0105_l1.htm

October 2000 -- Three IDF soldiers were taken hostage, in similar circumstances as the attack of July 2006:
Sgt. Omer Saued from the Galilee village of Salame near Karmiel, Sgt. Binyamin Avraham from Bnei Brak, and Sgt. Adi Avitan from Tiberias. Suaed is a Bedouin Arab; the other two are Jews. They were captured in an area known as Shaba Farms, or Har Dov, a region of the Golan Heights that belonged to Syria prior to the 1967 war.

The IDF pronounced the three soldiers dead on November 1, 2001.
Their remains were eventually returned to their families in a prisoner exchange on January 29, 2004. (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Society_&_Culture/prisonerswap012904.html)

Yeah, people do have short memories...

[jsiv]

It's a major component.


I don't buy it. At all. A major part of their excuse, maybe.


Israel has been battling Hezbollah in that specific salient for many years.


Well of course, but that doesn't mean it's what they're actually fighting for.

[webfusion]

I don't buy it. At all. A major part of their excuse, maybe.

Agreed.


Just as the Saudis are now bringing forward again that old plan to get Israel to "withdraw 100%" from the territories captured in 1967 ------ which would necessarily include the area of the Western Wall.

[Undesired Walrus]

You stay out of it.

:)

[Undesired Walrus]

If I look at this crap down there in a neutral way, I consider the initial way of Israel to occupy their "Holy" pile of dust and sand

You great big racist!

Listen, Oliver, I know some may disagree with me here, but I hate the history that Israel took land that belonged to the Palestinian people. I believe it would be better for the world and everybody to accept that it was by irrational and anti-intellectual means. Plus, it does not give justice to the horrors of the Holocaust and our following treatment of Jews.

But back in the day.

Children have been born there now. This is their home. It will be a lot more intellectual for both the Jews and the Muslims to, however hard, accept this. Perhaps one day Jews and Muslims can live side by side in both states, near their original homes.

Of course, easier said then done.

[RandFan]

You stay out of it.:D Best damn retort I've heard in months.

Oliver owes you a touché.

[WildCat]

Listen, Oliver, I know some may disagree with me here, but I hate the history that Israel took land that belonged to the Palestinian people.
No, they didn't. Jews had lived continuously in the area since time immemorial. The fact that non-Palestinians ran the place made no waves at all when it was the Turks, nor when it was the British. Only when it was run by Jews did the place explode and neighboring armys attempt invasion. The whole mess is the result of fanatical hatred of Jews by Muslims, period. I find this "reason" appalling, how about you?

[webfusion]

Perhaps one day Jews and Muslims can live side by side...


No way. Stop dreaming. The jews would never accept that. :tank:

Palestinian Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas said Thursday he was ready to work with Israel on a declaration of principles as a step toward a full peace agreement. Israeli-Palestinian talks would focus on implementing what was mentioned in the road map, Abbas said, referring to the international peace plan that envisions a Palestinian state alongside Israel.

"Then we could end in a declaration of principles," he said during a joint news conference with visiting U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice. --- August 2, 2007


Oh wait --- jews and muslims already live side by side in Israel.

[Undesired Walrus]

The fact that non-Palestinians ran the place made no waves at all when it was the Turks, nor when it was the British. Only when it was run by Jews did the place explode and neighboring armys attempt invasion.

Hmmm, interesting.

From what I hear from many around me, whether it be on Newsnight, or down at Hyde Park on Sunday,
an anger exists at the what one can best describe as 'double standards'.
I'm not being a hippy drippy liberal on this WildCat, I'm talking in a practical sense about the equal value of all human life, which is simply ignored for the most part in favour of reporting on suicide attacks within the capital. It is simply the truth, and it is simply not on.

This doesn't mean we need to absolutely blame anyone for the misinformation, but the anger exhibitied is anger that can be shared by you or I Wildcat, it just depends on what part of the world we reside in.

Wildcat, I cannot help noticing you cherry pick parts of arguments that contradict with your own views. You'll notice that I agree with you on the most part.

Here's a possible solution. Muslims accept that they are Israeli's, and Jews accept they are Palestinian's.

[webfusion]

U-W suggests:Here's a possible solution. Muslims accept that they are Israeli's, and Jews accept they are Palestinian's.

Can you clarify what you mean?

[Undesired Walrus]

U-W suggests:

Can you clarify what you mean?

An Idealistic masturbatory construct of mine with no grounding on reality or practibility.

Quite honestly, if anything is about the history or political aspects of Israel and Palestine, I honestly cannot stop myself from getting involved, but end up regreting it for the most part. The truth is, I am simply not educated enough about it.

I stick to the history, literature and ideology of Islamic Extremism, that is about all I can give to the debate in question.:o

[webfusion]

Undesired Walrus, I was just trying to get a feel of how your statement parses.

It seemed that you were saying -- "They should see themselves walking in each other's shoes"


Meanwhile, speaking of terrorism:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/889250.html
By Reuters

---- Al Qaida-inspired militants battling the Lebanese army for more than 10 weeks hit a main power station in north Lebanon with Katyusha rockets on Thursday, disrupting electricity supplies to wide areas.

[Undesired Walrus]

Undesired Walrus, I was just trying to get a feel of how your statement parses.

It seemed that you were saying -- "They should see themselves walking in each other's shoes"


Exactly, that would be great. Idealistic and unpractical, but great.

Apologies if my previous post sounded rude, it wasn't intended to.

[webfusion]

U-W , no apologies needed, your post didn't sound rude at all.

What is often neglected in the 'conflict' over Palestine is the involvement of the palestinian-israelis. When discussions take place between Israel & the Palestinian Authority (such as the PA is fragmented these days), I often wonder why the Israelis don't invite palestinian representatives from Haifa, from Jaffa, from Be'er Sheva, from Nazareth, from Um El-Fhaham? Those people have a direct stake in the formation of a Palestinian State, it would seem. I want to hear their opinions and input, regarding a State alongside Israel that will be a full partner (in trade, in tourism, in culture, in health care, in education, etc).

The fact that the palestinians insist on their State being "jew-free" is the most troubling aspect of the entire situation. I am sure that the palestinian-israelis would be able to bring some valuable insight to the table, regarding how they are intertwined with the jews and how that is a good thing which needs to be strengthened.

(NOTE: It is important to focus on the fact that not all palestinians are muslims)

[Newtons Bit]

I grew up with Terror-News from the Middle-East and I pretty much ignored this annoying Issue until recently. If I look at this crap down there in a neutral way, I consider the initial way of Israel to occupy their "Holy" pile of dust and sand as a terroristic act - just like if the native Americans (http://www.accessgenealogy.com/native/washington/index.htm) would occupy Washington and declare their own Country because it was their former Homeland.

Now even if this sounds straightway stupid to imagine that - even if it's pretty similar to the Zionism Idea, I have a hard time to see who the Terrorists are seeing the cruelty on both sides.

Anyway: My question is:

What is your Idea to settle this Piece of annoying [Rule8] conflict once and for all?



Do you bother doing any real research on subjects or do you believe ALL the propaganda you see? Zionism is a concept that was invented in the late 19th century that encouraged Jews to leave their current homes and form a homeland of sorts for Jews everywhere; a place where they could go and not be immediately discriminated against simply because of their race. The ancient homeland of Israel/Palestine was picked for this purpose (other places were considered).

At the time, Palestine wasn't an independant nation made up of people currently living in the "State of Palestine". It was a province of the Ottomon Empire. Britian captured Palestine in World War I and assumed a governership of it until 1948.

Before 1948, Jews immigrated to Palestine and buying land and creating farms and businesses. They were not stealing anything. However the Arabs in the region rioted and forced the British to create immigration controls on the number of Jews that could enter Palestine. This was before the Holocaust.

In 1948, The UN passed a resolution that formed two states, Israel and Palestine. Both had about an equal amount of land, and it was even reasonable fair on the quality of land. Palestine was almost 100% Muslim Arab, while Israel was only about 55% Jewish. It was a reasonable deal to everyone. The Jews accepted the deal, the Arabs did not. Why? That question has a single answer: racism. Many Arabs could not tolerate Jews having any power over Muslims or any power at all. Before 1948, this was not a question of nationality or who's land was whos, the Jews were buying land fairly for the most part. It was a question of immigration and control and racism. As I recall Oliver, you're staunchly opposed to the immigration controls the US is trying and failing to institute to prevent large waves of immigration from entering this country. It's insanely hypocritical for you to support the latin immigration into the US but to wholely reject the Jewish immigration into Palestine. But that's what you've done.

The Arab nations declared war on Israel the DAY it declared independance. Many Arabs who were living inside the borders of Israel fled, not as refugees, but to pick up arms and fight against the people who had been their neighbors the day before. The fought for control, the fought because they were racist and couldn't live side by side with someone else who was different than them. The Jews aren't infalliable in this, I'm not trying to say that they were. There were many Jewish gangs (terrorists even) that did bad bad things that didn't help the integration.

In the end the Jews won the war, and THEN they occupied land. The remaining portions of "Palestine"(roughly todays land) was occupied by Arab nations. The Arab nations didn't relinquish control over these areas after the wars in the 60's and 70's. These nations refuse to help the refugees in the West Bank, Golan and Gaza today, though they occupied those territories for decades. Well, they refuse to help except by providing weapons and some minor aid.

Palestine doesn't exist anymore. It never really did. It had a chance to in 1948, but the Arabs chose war instead. And they lost. And they're bitter. But they're good at propaganda, and their play at victimhood has apparantly already won you over.

[Oliver]

Do you bother doing any real research on subjects or do you believe ALL the propaganda you see? Zionism is a concept that was invented in the late 19th century that encouraged Jews to leave their current homes and form a homeland of sorts for Jews everywhere; a place where they could go and not be immediately discriminated against simply because of their race. The ancient homeland of Israel/Palestine was picked for this purpose (other places were considered).

At the time, Palestine wasn't an independant nation made up of people currently living in the "State of Palestine". It was a province of the Ottomon Empire. Britian captured Palestine in World War I and assumed a governership of it until 1948.

Before 1948, Jews immigrated to Palestine and buying land and creating farms and businesses. They were not stealing anything. However the Arabs in the region rioted and forced the British to create immigration controls on the number of Jews that could enter Palestine. This was before the Holocaust.

In 1948, The UN passed a resolution that formed two states, Israel and Palestine. Both had about an equal amount of land, and it was even reasonable fair on the quality of land. Palestine was almost 100% Muslim Arab, while Israel was only about 55% Jewish. It was a reasonable deal to everyone. The Jews accepted the deal, the Arabs did not. Why? That question has a single answer: racism. Many Arabs could not tolerate Jews having any power over Muslims or any power at all. Before 1948, this was not a question of nationality or who's land was whos, the Jews were buying land fairly for the most part. It was a question of immigration and control and racism. As I recall Oliver, you're staunchly opposed to the immigration controls the US is trying and failing to institute to prevent large waves of immigration from entering this country. It's insanely hypocritical for you to support the latin immigration into the US but to wholely reject the Jewish immigration into Palestine. But that's what you've done.

The Arab nations declared war on Israel the DAY it declared independance. Many Arabs who were living inside the borders of Israel fled, not as refugees, but to pick up arms and fight against the people who had been their neighbors the day before. The fought for control, the fought because they were racist and couldn't live side by side with someone else who was different than them. The Jews aren't infalliable in this, I'm not trying to say that they were. There were many Jewish gangs (terrorists even) that did bad bad things that didn't help the integration.

In the end the Jews won the war, and THEN they occupied land. The remaining portions of "Palestine"(roughly todays land) was occupied by Arab nations. The Arab nations didn't relinquish control over these areas after the wars in the 60's and 70's. These nations refuse to help the refugees in the West Bank, Golan and Gaza today, though they occupied those territories for decades. Well, they refuse to help except by providing weapons and some minor aid.

Palestine doesn't exist anymore. It never really did. It had a chance to in 1948, but the Arabs chose war instead. And they lost. And they're bitter. But they're good at propaganda, and their play at victimhood has apparantly already won you over.


What Propaganda? Wikipedia? :confused:

Anyway - the UN resolution wasn't a solution if both sides of the Story didn't fully agree with each other. So in the aftermath, it was a bad Idea, too.

Basically the whole conflict created the Hezbollah, didn't it? That outcome isn't surprising to me - not at all. What I don't understand is the US support for Israel. As you tried to imply: They are an OWN State. The financial and military support implies the opposite: "We, America, think that Israel is no own independent state because they can't survive on their own." :boggled: (Which also doesn't seem to be true according to Israels military power in the M-E.)

So who are the Terrorists from Muslim Point of View? Maybe you can answer this question - even if I know you have a hard time to see the conflict from their side, too.

[Newtons Bit]

What Propaganda? Wikipedia? :confused:

Tell me, where in wikipedia does it say that Israel stole land? Where does it say that Hizbollah was created by anything other than Iran? Most people in Lebanon HATE Hizbollah. Even more than they hate the Jews.


Anyway - the UN resolution wasn't a solution if both sides of the Story didn't fully agree with each other. So in the aftermath, it was a bad Idea, too.

This is the story of the UN. We shouldn't have passed any resolutions against somalia, saddam hussein, etc because we didn't see their side. BS.



The financial and military support implies the opposite: "We, America, think that Israel is no own independent state because they can't survive on their own." :boggled: (Which also doesn't seem to be true according to Israels military power in the M-E.)

Here's an idea, lets get a time machine and go back to WW2 and the US will stop supporting the allies in 1939-1941. Because hey, they're independant states, they have to survive without help. And while we're at it, why don't we just suspend all aid everywhere. Everyone is independant. Africa doesn't need our assistance!

So who are the Terrorists from Muslim Point of View? Maybe you can answer this question - even if I know you have a hard time to see the conflict from their side, too.

Terrorists are people who intentionally attack civilians. How is launching unguided rockets into civilian populations NOT terrorism? How can you possibly equivocate a military which tries to prevent said rocket launching with the people who are attacking ONLY civilians.

I feel alot of empathy for the Palestinian people. They've been lied to, cheated, and extorted by their own governments and other arab nations just so that they can stay there and be a thorn in the side of Israel. The gal I asked to my senior prom was a first generation Palestinian. I've heard first-hand how heard it was for the average person. That doesn't mean terrorism is okay.

I do have a hard time not seeing things from Hizbollah's and Hamas' point of view. Though that may be because I'm not an ISLAMISC SUPREMIST. Pardon me for not wishing the Jews to be slaves.

[Pardalis]

Tell me, where in wikipedia does it say that Israel stole land? Where does it say that Hizbollah was created by anything other than Iran? Most people in Lebanon HATE Hizbollah. Even more than they hate the Jews.

Unfortunately, last year's condemnable bombing of Lebanon by Israel has created alot of sympathy for Hizbollah in Lebanon, and abroad. :(

[Newtons Bit]

Unfortunately, last year's condemnable bombing of Lebanon by Israel has created alot of sympathy for Hizbollah in Lebanon, and abroad. :(

If you look at a map of where in Beirut was hit, you'd see the Israeli attacks were contained to a very small area. The Hizbollah area, and a couple of airstrikes at the airport (which annoyed alot of people). A few city blocks were destroyed.

http://vitalperspective.typepad.com/.shared/image.html?/photos/uncategorized/beirut2_2.jpg


The western media however, bought the Hizbollah propaganda machine of what was targeted. We made it look like Beirut was leveled =\
http://timesnews.typepad.com/news/images/beirut_1982_1.jpg


We're helping Hizbollah when the propaganda war. People like Oliver are just proof of it.

[Pardalis]

If you look at a map of where in Beirut was hit, you'd see the Israeli attacks were contained to a very small area. The Hizbollah area, and a couple of airstrikes at the airport (which annoyed alot of people). A few city blocks were destroyed.

http://vitalperspective.typepad.com/.shared/image.html?/photos/uncategorized/beirut2_2.jpg


The western media however, bought the Hizbollah propaganda machine of what was targeted. We made it look like Beirut was leveled =\
http://timesnews.typepad.com/news/images/beirut_1982_1.jpg


We're helping Hizbollah when the propaganda war. People like Oliver are just proof of it.

I still think the retaliations were way too exaggerated, it decimated entire neighbourhoods and families... and for what? Three hostages? These events damaged Israel's reputation much more than anything else. The cost of that mistake will be far greater than the loss of the hostages (have they been found btw?).

It created alot of Olivers all over the world.

[Oliver]

Unfortunately, last year's condemnable bombing of Lebanon by Israel has created alot of sympathy for Hizbollah in Lebanon, and abroad. :(

If you look at a map of where in Beirut was hit, you'd see the Israeli attacks were contained to a very small area. The Hizbollah area, and a couple of airstrikes at the airport (which annoyed alot of people). A few city blocks were destroyed.

http://vitalperspective.typepad.com/.shared/image.html?/photos/uncategorized/beirut2_2.jpg


The western media however, bought the Hizbollah propaganda machine of what was targeted. We made it look like Beirut was leveled =\
http://timesnews.typepad.com/news/images/beirut_1982_1.jpg


We're helping Hizbollah when the propaganda war. People like Oliver are just proof of it.


Oh wait. Destroying very small areas? Damn - those propaganda-outlets are everywhere:

http://www.250kb.de/u/070802/j/73027103.jpg

We can spin this all night long. The truth is - every attack out of ideologies or preemptively is terrorism to someone. Usually for the ones who are being attacked. :boggled: Welcome to the unbiased reality.

[Oliver]

It created alot of Olivers all over the world.


I'm not kidding here. I'm dialing the Number of our Pastor right now... :mad:

[webfusion]

I still think the retaliations were way too exaggerated, it decimated entire neighbourhoods and families... and for what? Three hostages?

Two. Goldwasser and Regev.

Israel, basically at the same time, was inside Gaza & attacking there, for Cpl.Shalit, who had been taken hostage by HAMAS. As far as I have seen, both actions to kidnap IDF soldiers and demand prisoner releases from Israel (including Sami Kuntar), were operations directed from Tehran, Iran.

BTW, none of those three soldiers have been seen or heard from since. Not even by the Red Cross/Red Crescent.

If Israel's past dealings with Hezbollah are any indication, their corpses will be exchanged in a trade for prisoners (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Society_&_Culture/prisonerswap012904.html) (palestinians and hezbollah/lebanese).


As for the "exaggerated" nature of the IDF retaliations --- that is the subject of a major investigatory commmission in Israel, the Winograd Report.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/854051.html

BTW, thanks to Newton's Bit for his post # 34 (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=2825316&postcount=34) detailing the historical events. He has a good grasp on things.

(NOTE: I like that James E Amrhein sig. line. Bravo.)

[Newtons Bit]

Oh wait. Destroying very small areas? Damn - those propaganda-outlets are everywhere:

http://www.250kb.de/u/070802/j/73027103.jpg

We can spin this all night long. The truth is - every attack out of ideologies or preemptively is terrorism to someone. Usually for the ones who are being attacked. :boggled: Welcome to the unbiased reality.


Error! Can't see that picture.

[Segnosaur]

Oh wait. Destroying very small areas? Damn - those propaganda-outlets are everywhere:

http://www.250kb.de/u/070802/j/73027103.jpg

Ok, here's what the differences between Israel's actions in Lebanon and al Qaeda's on 9/11 were...

- Israel actually gave WARNINGS to civilians when and where it was going to attack. al Quaeda, other than vague "We don't like you", did not
- There were valid military targets that Israel was going after. Al quaeda just wanted to kill civilians


We can spin this all night long. The truth is - every attack out of ideologies or preemptively is terrorism to someone.
No, that is not correct.

The term 'terrorism' has very specific implications... the people engaging in attacks do not carry identifying markings, they usually (but not always) act against civilian targets, and their actions usually do not have a strategic purpose. The only way that someone could say that "every attack based on ideology is terrorism" is if they took the definition of 'terrorism' and distorted it beyond all meaning.

[Thunder]

2 state solution. geneva accords. that is the solution. period.

[Oliver]

2 state solution. geneva accords. that is the solution. period.


If the UN Resolution would have been legitimized on behalf of both sides, we would have much more peace today. Personally I think that the State of Palestine would be a good start for Palestinians to have rights, too - and to avoid Americas way of looking away concerning this problem.

And quite frankly. No one should have Nuclear Weapons in the Middle-East. Especially not Iran and Israel. Or both of them.

[jsiv]

If the UN Resolution would have been legitimized on behalf of both sides, we would have much more peace today. Personally I think that the State of Palestine would be a good start for Palestinians to have rights, too - and to avoid Americas way of looking away concerning this problem.

And quite frankly. No one should have Nuclear Weapons in the Middle-East. Especially not Iran and Israel. Or both of them.


Do you think Arafat was genuine about the Oslo Accords, Oliver?

[Newtons Bit]

If the UN Resolution would have been legitimized on behalf of both sides, we would have much more peace today. Personally I think that the State of Palestine would be a good start for Palestinians to have rights, too - and to avoid Americas way of looking away concerning this problem.

And quite frankly. No one should have Nuclear Weapons in the Middle-East. Especially not Iran and Israel. Or both of them.


The 1948 UN resolution WAS reasonable. But most Arabs decided that war was a better choice than having one 100% Arab nation and one almost 50/50 Arab/Jew nation. This is what is known as hate. The 2-state deal that is being discussed now is not as beneficial to the Arabs as the original 1948 one in terms of land.

The idea of a "Palestinian State" these days is almost absurd. It would erupt in civil war in a matter of months if not weeks. Do you not recall the violent overthrow of the Palestinian government in Gaza so recently?

As far as looking away, I think you should take a look to your own leaders. Just look at the UN involvement in Lebanon now in "keeping the peace". The only thing the UN has done is provide a cover in which Hizbollah has re-armed. It was very nice of the UN to bring in large amounts of anti-aircraft units and then not bother with disarming Hizbollah.

A REAL solution to all of this violence is real peace-keeping missions. This would require the UN to move into Southern Lebanon, the West Bank (though Fatah wants to play ball these days), Golan and Gaza. Once there, they need to completly disarm all of the terrorists and ensure that the only people with guns are the police and themselves. From then, they would have to ensure that no more rockets or weapons find their way into Palestine. But they don't. The UN and it's masters want to stay neutral. They want to stay neutral to Hizbollah, to Hamas, to terrorists. This way, the UN is never the target of any violence. But it's time to grow a pair. It's time to stand up and do something good for the world and actually keep the peace. But the UN looks away. It wants to be neutral.

[webfusion]

2 state solution. geneva accords. that is the solution. period.

Geneva? Why not Oslo?

[Undesired Walrus]

Pardalis, I'm very much in agreement with you. The Beruit thing was, I presumed, one incident in which both right and left could understand as a reckless and a staggering over-reaction.

It's no different than me blowing up my block of flats in order to get the (hypothetical) child porn images destroyed from my computer (I.e, completly in my own interests).