Wrong to mislead Children over Father Christmas?

[Undesired Walrus]

If you are a non-believer, presumably you are a hypocrite of the highest order to lie to them about the tooth fairy, father christmas etc etc?

[Lothian]

If you are a non-believer, presumably you are a hypocrite of the highest order to lie to them about the tooth fairy, father christmas etc etc?No. I have no problem with my three year old believing in fantasy characters like Santa, the tooth Fairy and God. It is when people old enough to know better believe in them that there is a problem.

[volatile]

This is a tricky question. I haven't got kids but I'd like to think that I wouldn't lie to them about Santa or the Tooth Fairy. Would that spoil their childhood, or mould them into rational, clear headed adults?

I'm really not sure.

[JoeEllison]

If you are a non-believer, presumably you are a hypocrite of the highest order to lie to them about the tooth fairy, father christmas etc etc?

I would think so, yeah. It is really double hypocrisy for Christians, though.

[Lothian]

This is a tricky question. I haven't got kids but I'd like to think that I wouldn't lie to them about Santa or the Tooth Fairy. Would that spoil their childhood, or mould them into rational, clear headed adults?

I'm really not sure.I regularly lie to mine.

The oldest questions everything I say.

Am I moulding them into rational, clear headed adults?

I'm really not sure

[volatile]

Don't Lie to Kids (http://www.unamerican.com/catalog/stickers/dontlietokids.htm)

[tsg]

It's fun for them. And unless someone can show me some actual harm that comes from it, I see no reason to think it's hypocritical.

[triadboy]

I couldn't bring myself to lie to my daughter. I always spoke of Santa with a smile on my face that let her know I was pulling her leg. She figured it out when she was 5 or 6.

[Jimbo07]

No. I have no problem with my three year old believing in fantasy characters like Santa, the tooth Fairy and God. It is when people old enough to know better believe in them that there is a problem.

Seconded.

Fairy tales are okay for children. Fairy tales are also okay for adults, if the adults acknowledge them for what they are. As long as a child believes in Santa :p, there is potential fun for both the child and the parent (buying gifts, dressing up, pictures, etc.). A second benefit is that when the child figures it out, it can be an opportunity to put them on a road of lifelong critical thinking which comes from within, rather than being imposed from without. Effective!

[Wings]

Lie.....lie?

I'm going to tell my children the truth! That I'm Santa Claus and their mother is the tooth fairy. They better be nice or they'll get some coal in their stockings, that's for sure!

[MWare]

Lie.....lie?

I'm going to tell my children the truth! That I'm Santa Claus and their mother is the tooth fairy. They better be nice or they'll get some coal in their stockings, that's for sure!

When I have kids, they can believe in Santa. But he's going to be Japanese.

[volatile]

Has there been any research on the psychological impact on kids when they find out that not only is Santa Claus not real, their parents are duplicitous and mendacious?

I remember being pretty damned upset, and I can't see how that does anyone much good.

[Lothian]

I couldn't bring myself to lie to my daughter. I always spoke of Santa with a smile on my face that let her know I was pulling her leg. She figured it out when she was 5 or 6.That is lying. Until she was 5-6 she believed the lies you told.

Whether the words you say are lies is decided by the truth of your words not your intentions or smile.

I would not lie to hurt my kids. Like you I pull their leg, but it is still lying.

[tsg]

Has there been any research on the psychological impact on kids when they find out that not only is Santa Claus not real, their parents are duplicitous and mendacious?

I remember being pretty damned upset, and I can't see how that does anyone much good.

Being upset is not, in and of itself, harmful. Unless you are suggesting we insulate children from anything that could possibly upset them, I don't see your point.

[ponderingturtle]

Has there been any research on the psychological impact on kids when they find out that not only is Santa Claus not real, their parents are duplicitous and mendacious?

I remember being pretty damned upset, and I can't see how that does anyone much good.

Well getting them to question authority figures is not a bad thing.

But then again the fact that Santa is constrained by their parents buget is also something that does not fit into the myth.

[Beerina]

Anyone suffering severe psychological harm upon finding out Santa is not real, probably has much bigger issues to deal with.

A child should just feel mildly amused their parents did that to amuse them (the child.) They realize it's all in fun.

[IMST]

A second benefit is that when the child figures it out, it can be an opportunity to put them on a road of lifelong critical thinking which comes from within, rather than being imposed from without. Effective!
Ding Ding Ding!
That's exactly my thoughts on the issue. I got the Santa fairy tale, the tooth fairy fairy tale and the Jesus fairy tale as a child. Seeing through one helped me see through the rest.

[lightcreatedlife@hom]

No. I have no problem with my three year old believing in fantasy characters like Santa, the tooth Fairy and God. It is when people old enough to know better believe in them that there is a problem.
But it is childhood where the damage was done. And the damage is the image of God, and his angels. Santa is Zeus in old age. He mellowed, and now gives gifts. Instead of living in the clouds, he lives in a place where it is all white. His help is still small (compared to him) and magical.

[tsg]

But it is childhood where the damage was done. And the damage is the image of God, and his angels. Santa is Zeus in old age. He mellowed, and now gives gifts. Instead of living in the clouds, he lives in a place where it is all white. His help is still small (compared to him) and magical.

The prime difference being that no child is taught about Santa or the Tooth Fairy with the expectation that they never stop believing in them.

[tkingdoll]

Show me one adult who still believes in Santa.

Clearly this myth is not intended as a lifetime belief, or system of belief. It's a pretty basic emotional blackmail tool at worst (be good and get material gain) and a lot of fun and joy at best. You know, like childhood is meant to have.

[lightcreatedlife@hom]

The prime difference being that no child is taught about Santa or the Tooth Fairy with the expectation that they never stop believing in them.
But it opens the door for religion, and never closes it. The stories of the bible are just as fantastic as those of Zeus and Santa. Some people grow up to say, "Noah could not have done that", and some don't. In short, the bible has become a "magic book" that don't have to be read, or understood, to be believed.

[tsg]

But it opens the door for religion, and never closes it. The stories of the bible are just as fantastic as those of Zeus and Santa. Some people grow up to say, "Noah could not have done that", and some don't. In short, the bible has become a "magic book" that don't have to be read, or understood, to be believed.

Hardly. There aren't weekly classes teaching children to believe in Santa, nor rituals throughout their lives to confirm this belief. Parents typically don't pressure children into believing when they begin to question Santa, nor is there the threat of eternal torment for not believing. There aren't whole organizations professing the belief in Santa as the one true way to eternal happiness, offering so-called evidence for his existence, or apologetics explaining away the lack of any evidence.

In short, when Santa's existence is questioned, it is encouraged. When god is questioned, it is discouraged.

I would argue the realization that Santa is a myth gives the child the ability to close the door on religion all by himself. And, more importantly, opens the door for critical thinking.

[JoeTheJuggler]

I do think calling it "lying" is a bit strong. Is it "lying" when you read them a Dr. Seuss story?

I do think, however, that if a 5 year old asks you if Santa Clause is real, it's time to tell them about the difference between fiction and reality.

[Miss Anthrope]

I decided not to do this with my kids. I tried to the tooth fairy thing with my daughter once, and right after she indicated something that communicated strongly that she did not want to be lied to. So I stopped. I don't think Santa and the like are necessarily harmful. It's just not our style.

[quixotecoyote]

I always figured that Santa Claus was going to be a test for my kid(s). Teach them critical thinking skills and then take them out for a treat when they figure out it's not real.

[lightcreatedlife@hom]

Hardly. There aren't weekly classes teaching children to believe in Santa, nor rituals throughout their lives to confirm this belief. Parents typically don't pressure children into believing when they begin to question Santa, nor is there the threat of eternal torment for not believing. There aren't whole organizations professing the belief in Santa as the one true way to eternal happiness, offering so-called evidence for his existence, or apologetics explaining away the lack of any evidence.

In short, when Santa's existence is questioned, it is encouraged. When god is questioned, it is discouraged.

I didn't say that they were the same, just that they are tied together. And Santa knows how to make an entrance, he does it in a way that could look truely magical. The deepest desires (easy reach for a child) can appear overnight. After Dec 25, God gives gifts. And remember, religion has in fact tied itself to the Santa thing, through the birthday of Jesus. So while Santa is a made up story, it shares the day with one that is literally gospel.


I would argue the realization that Santa is a myth gives the child the ability to close the door on religion all by himself. And, more importantly, opens the door for critical thinking.
Cross your fingers.

[ponderingturtle]

I do think calling it "lying" is a bit strong. Is it "lying" when you read them a Dr. Seuss story?


Well, if you start pretending Sam I Am left them green eggs and ham, then it might well count as lieing.

[tsg]

I didn't say that they were the same, just that they are tied together.

You said belief in Santa "opens the door for religion and never closes it." In other words, Santa leads to, or at least encourages, religion. I dispute that.


And Santa knows how to make an entrance, he does it in a way that could look truely magical. The deepest desires (easy reach for a child) can appear overnight. After Dec 25, God gives gifts. And remember, religion has in fact tied itself to the Santa thing, through the birthday of Jesus. So while Santa is a made up story, it shares the day with one that is literally gospel.

I don't see your point.

[lightcreatedlife@hom]

You said belief in Santa "opens the door for religion and never closes it." In other words, Santa leads to, or at least encourages, religion. I dispute that.
Santa helps sell the image of God as Zeus-looking, and the magical gifts from heaven.



I don't see your point.
[/quote]Truth and a lie occupy the same day, and the stories sound about the same. Religion is, and was consciously tied, to Santa. Christmas is sought of a "soft story" told to kids, leading to the hard one.

[triadboy]

Truth and a lie occupy the same day, and the stories sound about the same. Religion is, and was consciously tied, to Santa. Christmas is sought of a "soft story" told to kids, leading to the hard one.

Santa is a gateway myth.

[andyandy]

Santa is a gateway myth.

:D

Just say no to Santa.

[tsg]

Santa helps sell the image of God as Zeus-looking, and the magical gifts from heaven.

Truth and a lie occupy the same day, and the stories sound about the same. Religion is, and was consciously tied, to Santa. Christmas is sought of a "soft story" told to kids, leading to the hard one.

I still don't see how a fairy-tale a child is meant to outgrow and question prepares him to believe, unquestioningly, in religion for the rest of his life. The stories may have similarities but the processes are completely different.

[tsg]

Santa is a gateway myth.

Yeah, like marijuana is a gateway drug. :rolleyes:

[andyandy]

Yeah, like marijuana is a gateway drug. :rolleyes:

wasn't that the joke?

[tsg]

wasn't that the joke?

Probably. But I'm in a snarky mood, so I missed it.

[jimlintott]

Parents lie to their children all the time. Sometimes it's for some fun sometimes it's to protect them. We did the tooth fairy, Santa Claus and the Easter bunny with our kids. There is no harm in this if you let them out of the lie when they are ready. They are ready when they start to question it. For my kids it ended up being a strong lesson in critical thinking.

These fictional fun characters are not the same as god and Jesus because when kids get this lie there is often no intention of letting them out of it. The intention is for them to live this lie their whole life. The intention of this lie is to manipulate people into conforming. In fact family troubles often arise when a child recognizes this for being as big a lie as Santa.

A better question is why do almost all adults see Santa, et al, as a story yet continue to believe the lies of religion?

[Piscivore]

My position, posted a long time ago. (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=829896&postcount=7)

[Jimbo07]

A better question is why do almost all adults see Santa, et al, as a story yet continue to believe the lies of religion?

I've never quite had the gumption to confront someone directly, especially in an otherwise pleasant social setting, with, "If you don't believe in Santa, why do you believe in a personal God?"

[jimlintott]

I've never quite had the gumption to confront someone directly, especially in an otherwise pleasant social setting, with, "If you don't believe in Santa, why do you believe in a personal God?"

It's a question best asked in an unpleasant social setting.

;)

[roger]

It's a question best asked in an unpleasant social setting.I guarantee it will be, after the question is asked. :)

[lightcreatedlife@hom]

I still don't see how a fairy-tale a child is meant to outgrow and question prepares him to believe, unquestioningly, in religion for the rest of his life. The stories may have similarities but the processes are completely different.
Its confusing, "believe this one, but not that".
"Why believe either one"?
"This one will damn you if you don't".
"But it sounds the same as the other one."
"Have faith. Read with faith, it wouldn't".

[Piscivore]

"This one will damn you if you don't"

So... keep lying, just about something different?

[Herzblut]

Fairy tales are also okay for adults, if the adults acknowledge them for what they are.
What? You say there aren't actually any Hobbits in Middleearth?? :D

I find the paranoia here very amusing. Kids from 3 to 5 or so live in their self-centered magical-thinking world that lets them absorbe any fairy tales seamlessly.

Phantasy and reality are not strictly devided for them. Teddybears are naturally alive, it starts raining because they are so unhappy, Snowwhite and the 7 Dwarfs, Cinderella, "Ach wie gut, dass niemand weiss, dass ich Rumpelstilzchen heiss"...

Fairy Tales train infantile imagination and language skills.

Skeptikal child thinking, hahaha!

Herzblut

[lightcreatedlife@hom]

So... keep lying, just about something different?
Only its not lying (at least not how it is commonly defined) some people actually believe the one story. Others believe that they will be damned if they question it.

[tsg]

Its confusing, "believe this one, but not that".
"Why believe either one"?
"This one will damn you if you don't".
"But it sounds the same as the other one."
"Have faith. Read with faith, it wouldn't".

What exactly are you saying?

[triadboy]

That is lying. Until she was 5-6 she believed the lies you told.


Actually other people were lying to her about Xmas. (Mother-in-law, TV, Toy Stores, classmates, society, etc)

The way I told it with a smile brought her out of it. ;)

[Hourglassmemory]

I think it's fine letting kids to wonder about it a bit.

I think it's alright that kids believe in santa claus and in fairies. I see no harm in it beside that moment when they find out ther isn't any santa. But they get over it.
I dunno I'm 17, i shouldn't be answering this but...I don't want my kids to be deprived from that wonder that santa claus gave me when I was a kid.

The thing with god is that old people do it as if it's the truth and never give other points of view. God is not at the same level as Santa and fairies.

[Meadmaker]

We decided that we had to burst the Santa bubble when he was telling the other kids at school he believed in Santa Claus. It was only the first grade, but it was a Jewish school.

(In order to avoid hassles about where to spend the holidays, I married a Jew. We spend Christmas with my (Christian) parents.)

[JJM 777]

Fairy tales are okay for children. Fairy tales are also okay for adults, (...) there is potential fun
Justification for any religion, then. There is potential fun, and 99% of humans never really "grow up" into intellectuals of any mentionable level.

---

An elder friend of mine used to tell his grandson the usual stories about Santa Claus. When the boy was seven years old and entered school for the first year, an unfortunate discussion took place in the classroom, where the boy expressed his sincere belief in Santa Claus, and everyone else in the classroom began to ridicule him as an incredible moron.

This experience was socially traumatic for the boy, not only because of being ridiculed by the entire community (of peers and one adult) into which he had just entered, but also realizing that the people in whom he had trusted all his life had been lying to him for years.

"Innocence lost."

---

Any moral or social reason that there may be for not lying to people, applies to children too. Being caught of lying destroys social trust between people.

I fail to see why watching Disney cartoons etc. fairies would be essentially more fun, if the claim is added that the creatures are reality, not fiction.

[tsg]

Fairy tales are okay for children. Fairy tales are also okay for adults, (...) there is potential fun
Justification for any religion, then. There is potential fun, and 99% of humans never really "grow up" into intellectuals of any mentionable level.

99%? Evidence?

The part you cut out:

Fairy tales are okay for children. Fairy tales are also okay for adults, if the adults acknowledge them for what they are. As long as a child believes in Santa :p, there is potential fun for both the child and the parent (buying gifts, dressing up, pictures, etc.). (bolding mine)

would seem to specifically exclude religion. One wonders if you count yourself in the 1%.


An elder friend of mine used to tell his grandson the usual stories about Santa Claus. When the boy was seven years old and entered school for the first year, an unfortunate discussion took place in the classroom, where the boy expressed his sincere belief in Santa Claus, and everyone else in the classroom began to ridicule him as an incredible moron.

This experience was socially traumatic for the boy, not only because of being ridiculed by the entire community (of peers and one adult) into which he had just entered, but also realizing that the people in whom he had trusted all his life had been lying to him for years.

"Innocence lost."


Anecdotes are not evidence.

[Jimbo07]

would seem to specifically exclude religion.

I'm not sure what you mean, here. I was being a little bit snarky at the time, and meant to include religion.


One wonders if you count yourself in the 1%.


I didn't claim the 99% figure. That said, I generally try not to count myself amongst elites... I'm an elitist that way! :D


Anecdotes are not evidence.

That's true. I don't think that story is typical of childhood experiences.

[ImaginalDisc]

Children deserve to taught how to make choices and examine the world around them based on facts. Having parents who systematically lie about something for their own vicarious amusement is a hurdle to that. I think the Santa Myth sabotages development. "Daddy is a liar and he lies about Santa because he thinks it's funny."

[Damien Evans]

I couldn't bring myself to lie to my daughter. I always spoke of Santa with a smile on my face that let her know I was pulling her leg. She figured it out when she was 5 or 6.

Like my mum, she used to talk about santa with that ironic raised eyebrow look, i'm sure you know the one...

[tsg]

I'm not sure what you mean, here. I was being a little bit snarky at the time, and meant to include religion.

I was responding to JJM 777. I quoted your post to highlight the part he omitted. Sorry for the confusion.

[tsg]

Children deserve to taught how to make choices and examine the world around them based on facts. Having parents who systematically lie about something for their own vicarious amusement is a hurdle to that. I think the Santa Myth sabotages development.

Evidence?

"Daddy is a liar and he lies about Santa because he thinks it's funny."

Strawman.

[ImaginalDisc]

Strawman.

I've known too many parents who lied to their kids about Santa because it amused them.

[tsg]

I've known too many parents who lied to their kids about Santa because it amused them.

I don't see anyone here making that argument.

[Piscivore]

I don't see anyone here making that argument.

I did. Look up.

[Piscivore]

Any moral or social reason that there may be for not lying to people, applies to children too. Being caught of lying destroys social trust between people.

Since trust is something that should be earned, not granted to every stranger as their inalienable right, I was fine with destroying whatever vestigle traces of "social trust" might have been bred into my kids.

[ImaginalDisc]

I don't see anyone here making that argument.

I made the arguement that some peoplelie to their children about Santa because it amuses them, you declared it starwman. Page up. Read. Process. Think.

[tsg]

I made the arguement that some peoplelie to their children about Santa because it amuses them, you declared it starwman.

My statement was unclear, I apologize. I didn't see anyone defending the practice of encouraging a temporary belief in Santa Claus for the sheer enjoyment of deluding their children as you appeared to be characterizing it. If that wasn't your intention, then I misunderstood.

Page up. Read. Process. Think.

Don't be an ass.

[ImaginalDisc]

My statement was unclear, I apologize. I didn't see anyone defending the practice of encouraging a temporary belief in Santa Claus for the sheer enjoyment of deluding their children as you appeared to be characterizing it. If that wasn't your intention, then I misunderstood.


I'm claiming that people fool their children into beliving in Santa for (amoung other reasons) the vicarious amusement. Other reasons, as already mentioned in the thread include birbery to elicit good behavior. I don't think it does any good. Santa belief is, in my opinion, immoral.

P.S. Don't be an ass? Pot, kettle talk from someone who considers two words an articulate rebuttal.

[tsg]

I'm claiming that people fool their children into beliving in Santa for (amoung other reasons) the vicarious amusement. Other reasons, as already mentioned in the thread include birbery to elicit good behavior. I don't think it does any good. Santa belief is, in my opinion, immoral.

An opinion you apparently don't have any intention of disussing on any kind of intelligent level. Fine, noted.

P.S. Don't be an ass? Pot, kettle talk from someone who considers two words an articulate rebuttal.

Yes, ID, don't be an ass. You made a statement that you believed Santa Claus was harmful to children to which I responded "evidence?" -- asking if your opinion was in any way informed (to which you haven't responded, leading me the conclusion that it isn't). You made a characterization of the practice of encouraging belief in Santa Claus that I felt wasn't typical of those being presented, for which I got called, essentially, an idiot for questioning. Nowhere did I make any claim of this two word statement being "articulate rebuttal". Nowhere did I attack you or suggest you were less intelligent for holding those opinions. In short, you're acting like an ass.

Free advice, take it or leave it, I don't care which: If your goal is to get as few people as possible to actually read what you write, keep it up. Otherwise you might want to consider changing your approach.

[Piscivore]

My statement was unclear, I apologize. I didn't see anyone defending the practice of encouraging a temporary belief in Santa Claus for the sheer enjoyment of deluding their children as you appeared to be characterizing it. If that wasn't your intention, then I misunderstood.
Granted, I did not do it for only that reason- but then, there are few things I do for only one reason- the fact that it delighted me all to hell was the primary one. Certainly if it did not amuse me I wouldn't have put as much effort into it as I did. It's the main reason I lied to the girl about the Beaudalaires, and why I made the Hogwarts wands (presuming you read my post).

[lightcreatedlife@hom]

I'm claiming that people fool their children into beliving in Santa for (amoung other reasons) the vicarious amusement. Other reasons, as already mentioned in the thread include birbery to elicit good behavior. I don't think it does any good. Santa belief is, in my opinion, immoral.
What about the myth of Santa being paired, with that of a religious belief? Dec 25 has two meaning, one gives gift, the other gave his life as a gift.

[PrincessIneffabelle]

As a parent, I had to really think about this very subject. I had to examine the motivations and benefits, if any, involved in telling my child that a fictional character was absolutely real. From the beginning, Santa was treated as any other fictional or fantasy subject. I explained that Santa is just part of a story and that, while it can be fun to pretend he's real, we know that he's not "really really real". My family and friends were dismayed and disappointed that I wasn't going to perpetuate Santa worship. Evidently, it makes Christmas less enjoyable for them, somehow. Unlike my family and friends, I see no real benefit to carrying on a charade such as Santa belief and I still enjoy Christmas immensely. IMO, the only real benefit is to the adults involved. Believe me, my son enjoys Christmas plenty without Faith In Claus. Christmas is just as magical and sparkly for him as it was for Santa-believing me. The presents are just as eagerly anticipated, the decorations and lights are just as beautiful, the sound of sleigh bells and carols are just a musical, the warm feeling inside is just as comforting, the stories are just as enjoyable and repeatedly requested ... all without believing that Santa is absolutely real.

When he asks how Jimmy Neutron can breathe in space (or any other such impossible event), I shrug and say, "It's a cartoon (or movie or story), anything can happen." When he asks about any fictional characters, I make sure he knows that they are not real, but part of a story. Then we can talk about character actions and motivations. He also understands about actors and special effects in live-action movies.

When he asks me about death, I tell him that every living thing eventually dies and that no one really knows what happens after we die. I told him that some people believe we get reborn as new living things and some people think we turn into angels. I also told him that I don't believe anything happens to us after we die and that we should focus on what happens while we're alive. If we spend too much time thinking about dying, then it makes living a lot less enjoyable.

When he asks about God (thanks, Mom :rolleyes:) I tell him that lots of people have believed in lots of different gods. I've also told him that I don't believe in any gods. If he choses to believe in some god at a later date, then that will be his choice. I will do my best to educate him and encourage him to think critically about everything (including drugs, booze, and sex), but it is ultimately his decision. I can't think for him.

The bottom line is that I always tell my child the truth, even if it is filtered and framed in an age-appropriate way. I do not promote true belief in fictional characters or events. And, wouldn't you know it, my son is a happy, well-adjusted, creative, and imaginative child. He is also able to trust me.

[tsg]

Granted, I did not do it for only that reason- but then, there are few things I do for only one reason- the fact that it delighted me all to hell was the primary one. Certainly if it did not amuse me I wouldn't have put as much effort into it as I did. It's the main reason I lied to the girl about the Beaudalaires, and why I made the Hogwarts wands (presuming you read my post).

For my son's fourth birthday party, we hired an actress to dress up as Blue from "Blue's Clues". He enjoyed it immensely. One of the older children at the party figured out it was a girl in a suit and not actually Blue. I gave him a conspiratory "ssssh" -- in other words, "wink wink, you're in on it, don't spoil it for everyone else". All of the other children at the party had a lot of fun dancing and singing with this enormous blue dog. And it made me feel good that they had so much fun. I don't think it would have been the same if they knew it was just a girl in a suit.

My son understands the difference between fantasy and reality, and at almost seven years old is starting to question how Santa Claus can do everything people say he can. He even went to Google Earth to find images of the North Pole looking for Santa's Workshop. And, knowing my son, when he does find out it's just a story, he'll continue to "delude" his younger sister, and get joy out of being in on the adult joke. And then she will grow out of it.

My son watches cartoons and movies and understands they're just stories. He plays video games (some that would make some parents turn white with horror) and understands it's just pretend. One game I won't let him play, however, is "Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas" solely because of the language, and that's only because I haven't yet figured out how to explain that some words are "bad" and still be rational about it, especially when it consists of two people calling each other the n-word and having to tell him it's wrong if he uses it, even when he grows up.

Santa is fun. Growing out of Santa, and other childhood beliefs, is part of growing up. And until someone can show me actual evidence that it is harmful, I see no reason to stop. There is just no comparison between Santa and religion. As for arguing that "lying is immoral", absolutist statements, especially concerning morality, rarely hold up under scrutiny.

[ImaginalDisc]

For my son's fourth birthday party, we hired an actress to dress up as Blue from "Blue's Clues". He enjoyed it immensely. One of the older children at the party figured out it was a girl in a suit and not actually Blue. I gave him a conspiratory "ssssh" -- in other words, "wink wink, you're in on it, don't spoil it for everyone else". All of the other children at the party had a lot of fun dancing and singing with this enormous blue dog. And it made me feel good that they had so much fun. I don't think it would have been the same if they knew it was just a girl in a suit.

My son understands the difference between fantasy and reality, and at almost seven years old is starting to question how Santa Claus can do everything people say he can. He even went to Google Earth to find images of the North Pole looking for Santa's Workshop. And, knowing my son, when he does find out it's just a story, he'll continue to "delude" his younger sister, and get joy out of being in on the adult joke. And then she will grow out of it.

My son watches cartoons and movies and understands they're just stories. He plays video games (some that would make some parents turn white with horror) and understands it's just pretend. One game I won't let him play, however, is "Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas" solely because of the language, and that's only because I haven't yet figured out how to explain that some words are "bad" and still be rational about it, especially when it consists of two people calling each other the n-word and having to tell him it's wrong if he uses it, even when he grows up.

Santa is fun. Growing out of Santa, and other childhood beliefs, is part of growing up. And until someone can show me actual evidence that it is harmful, I see no reason to stop. There is just no comparison between Santa and religion. As for arguing that "lying is immoral", absolutist statements, especially concerning morality, rarely hold up under scrutiny.

Please stop lying to your son for your own amusement.

[tsg]

Please stop lying to your son for your own amusement.

Decision noted.

ETA: I'm starting to regret defending you in another thread that, despite the arrogance and self-righteousness you displayed, you had a valid point to make. You can be sure I won't make the same mistake again.

[lightcreatedlife@hom]

Please stop lying to your son for your own amusement.
But what if you told him the Santa story as an example of the affect of the other story that shares its birthday? Let him have his fun, but let him know that prizes don't come out of nothing. In our lives, human effort makes the difference-mostly. Because, afterall, a universal plan helped you to do "whatever" you did. People just have to realize that that includes going to the toliet.

[triadboy]

Like my mum, she used to talk about santa with that ironic raised eyebrow look, i'm sure you know the one...

No, I never did the raised-eyebrow when I was smiling. I didn't want to look insane.

[ImaginalDisc]

But what if you told him the Santa story as an example of the affect of the other story that shares its birthday?

If you are alluding to the story of that Jesus fellow, I also do not support teaching children that an engaged Israelite was raped by a sky-fairy, and gave birth to a man-god hybrid while she travelled with her husband in response to a national census that never happened, because that would also by lying.

Let him have his fun, but let him know that prizes don't come out of nothing. In our lives, human effort makes the difference-mostly. Because, afterall, a universal plan helped you to do "whatever" you did. People just have to realize that that includes going to the toliet.

I wish I could understand what this part meant.

[triadboy]

I'm claiming that people fool their children into beliving in Santa for (amoung other reasons) the vicarious amusement. Other reasons, as already mentioned in the thread include birbery to elicit good behavior.

I don't think it's anything as devious as that. I think people remember how they felt when they were kids on Christmas morning, and want to double the fun for their kids. The Santa story is just all part of the fun

[lightcreatedlife@hom]

If you are alluding to the story of that Jesus fellow, I also do not support teaching children that an engaged Israelite was raped by a sky-fairy, and gave birth to a man-god hybrid while she travelled with her husband in response to a national census that never happened, because that would also by lying.
I believe Jesus was a man who had his story fluffed up, and part of that fluff has been tied to Santa but using the same day. We have been taught what Jesus's father looked like-right?



I wish I could understand what this part meant.
It means that if you claim that God gave you money because you found it, you also have to recognize that he sold it from someone else. A lot of people do realize that the money did not come from "nowhere", they just reason that the person who losted it was bad-somehow. Afterall, they really did not take care of the money that God gave them.

[Piscivore]

For my son's fourth birthday party, we hired an actress to dress up as Blue from "Blue's Clues". He enjoyed it immensely. One of the older children at the party figured out it was a girl in a suit and not actually Blue. I gave him a conspiratory "ssssh" -- in other words, "wink wink, you're in on it, don't spoil it for everyone else". All of the other children at the party had a lot of fun dancing and singing with this enormous blue dog. And it made me feel good that they had so much fun. I don't think it would have been the same if they knew it was just a girl in a suit.

My son understands the difference between fantasy and reality, and at almost seven years old is starting to question how Santa Claus can do everything people say he can. He even went to Google Earth to find images of the North Pole looking for Santa's Workshop.
I LOVE that! Good for him! :D

And, knowing my son, when he does find out it's just a story, he'll continue to "delude" his younger sister, and get joy out of being in on the adult joke. And then she will grow out of it.
I hope she finds out on her own too. We never told the kids there was no Santa- they had to figure it out themselves.

My son watches cartoons and movies and understands they're just stories. He plays video games (some that would make some parents turn white with horror) [Same here] and understands it's just pretend. One game I won't let him play, however, is "Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas" solely because of the language, and that's only because I haven't yet figured out how to explain that some words are "bad" and still be rational about it, especially when it consists of two people calling each other the n-word and having to tell him it's wrong if he uses it, even when he grows up.
I just told my kids that some people get mad when you call them certain things, and you have to be prepared for that, and the polite thing to do is just not call them those things.

Santa is fun. Growing out of Santa, and other childhood beliefs, is part of growing up. And until someone can show me actual evidence that it is harmful, I see no reason to stop.
Speaking as a parent of a thirteen year old daughter who walked around Texas sporting an affected British accent and pretended, with her cousin, to be a visiting Hogwarts student, I say rAmen.

As for arguing that "lying is immoral", absolutist statements, especially concerning morality, rarely hold up under scrutiny.
Every single person on this planet lies at some point in their life- most of us with entusiastic frequency, some compulsively, and a few unconsiously. Lying is only immoral when it is used to defraud, and that is one paltry use out of several beneficial ones. Lies entertain, they smooth over social interactions, they protect. Lies aren't immoral, they are essential.

Please stop lying to your son for your own amusement.
Why on earth for?

[RandFan]

!!! Anecdote Alert !!!

I simply loved the whole Santa Claus BS. Just loved it. It was a magical time of year and I looked forward to it with excitement. I was disappointed when I found out the truth. It might have contributed to my neurosis, I'm not sure (is neurosis still a valid term?).

My kids loved it. When they asked me as they got older I would answer them in a way to spur their critical thinking skills. Young children live in a fantasy land as it is. Part of growing up is figuring out the difference between fantasy and reality. My children (all in their teens) are atheists. I would like to note that they were taken to church and given the opportunity to decide for themselves about god. Knowing the truth now, none of them have any regrets about Santa Claus and plan on doing the same for their kids.

If I find any objective evidence that exposing children to the Santa Claus myth, as my wife and I have done, will harm them then I would reconsider it. As it is I think it can be great.

[The Atheist]

If you are a non-believer, presumably you are a hypocrite of the highest order to lie to them about the tooth fairy, father christmas etc etc?

Excellent question. It's possibly the most difficult philosophical question I've faced and there isn't a lot of scientific evidence to show whether it does harm or good.

In the end, I decided that the kids could have Santa, simply because every other kid they will ever meet will do. I think the whole idea actually detracts from the lessons of giving that Christmas contains.

No. I have no problem with my three year old believing in fantasy characters like Santa, the tooth Fairy and God. It is when people old enough to know better believe in them that there is a problem.

That is the problem; some people don't stop. Maybe that tendency for humans to want fairytales to cling to mightn't arise if they're shown right from the start the difference between fact and fiction?

This is a tricky question. I haven't got kids but I'd like to think that I wouldn't lie to them about Santa or the Tooth Fairy. Would that spoil their childhood, or mould them into rational, clear headed adults?

I'm really not sure.

Nor is anyone else.

I doubt that much harm is done through kids being told about Santa, but in terms of the OP, I do feel a little hypocritical about it - no matter what subject comes up; sex, death, god, violence, I try to be 100% honest with my kids. I had wry chuckle at Piscivore's comments in that regard - I find the same thing happens with me; my kids won't believe their teachers on some subjects until they've sought my opinion first and that's from kindergarten to leaving stages.

[Foolmewunz]

I looked in on this thread a few days ago, in its infancy, and sort of thought it was ready to close at post 2, which fairly well captured my thoughts on the topic.

Unlike several posters, though, I never wrestled with the issue. I'd grown up in a fairly skeptical family, and I had muddled my way through it without major trauma (I'm a jerk for other reasons :spjimlad: ), so I figured my kid would manage, too.

I also see nothing wrong with Christmas/Santa as a celebration, since it's been (much to the distress of the fundies) so secularized that it's very possible to go through an entire holiday season without hearing reference made to the little baby in the manger. (In some communities, at any rate.)

Childhood, as has been stated here, should be a time of magic and fantasy. It's one of the ways we hone those exact critical thinking skills that we're always talking about. Children figure out a lot of things for themselves. I wasn't more than four when I realized that there was no empowered flying mouse coming to save the day, and that cats weren't ministers of evil. But I loved those Mighty Mouse cartoons, nonetheless. (I still sometimes hum "Krakatoa Katy, She is no Lady....". That was one fine looking mousette, lemme tell ya!... and my first crush! But maybe this part should be saved for the fantasy bestiality threads. )

I can go to the local Methodist church and be moved by "Oh, Holy Night" just as I could've gone to a Donovan concert and be moved by "Atlantis". I'm not going to start handing out bible tracts on street corners, nor am I buying crystals and tossing I Ching coins.

I think that by the time your child is ready to start first grade, it's about time to start prodding their thinking a little bit. If you don't let them get onto the scheme themselves, someone's going to blab at school.

Hobbits, Faeries, Elves, Witches, Wizards, Bigfoot, Santa, .... All harmless and entertaining myths. But at about 7, I'd anticipate that it's time they start comprehending the difference between fact and fantasy.

Jesus, Moses, Allah, Yahweh, et al.... Those represent belief systems, which are quite different from entertaining fantasies, as these myths are designed to direct you into a lifeview that purports to have all the answers according to some sort of a priori knowledge that only the original founders and those who are enlightened can grasp.

Yet, I exposed my daughter to various religions as a young child, too. Somehow she figured it all out. She's 29 now and not surprisingly doesn't believe in Santa any longer, but enjoyed the edition of the Middle Earth Trilogy I gave her for Christmas a few years ago. She's never been to church seriously (e.g. for other than a ceremony for someone else's benefit), and thus far isn't building a pyramid on the roof.

[Gregoire]

As a parent, I had to really think about this very subject. I had to examine the motivations and benefits, if any, involved in telling my child that a fictional character was absolutely real. From the beginning, Santa was treated as any other fictional or fantasy subject. I explained that Santa is just part of a story and that, while it can be fun to pretend he's real, we know that he's not "really really real". My family and friends were dismayed and disappointed that I wasn't going to perpetuate Santa worship. Evidently, it makes Christmas less enjoyable for them, somehow. Unlike my family and friends, I see no real benefit to carrying on a charade such as Santa belief and I still enjoy Christmas immensely. IMO, the only real benefit is to the adults involved. Believe me, my son enjoys Christmas plenty without Faith In Claus. Christmas is just as magical and sparkly for him as it was for Santa-believing me. The presents are just as eagerly anticipated, the decorations and lights are just as beautiful, the sound of sleigh bells and carols are just a musical, the warm feeling inside is just as comforting, the stories are just as enjoyable and repeatedly requested ... all without believing that Santa is absolutely real.

When he asks how Jimmy Neutron can breathe in space (or any other such impossible event), I shrug and say, "It's a cartoon (or movie or story), anything can happen." When he asks about any fictional characters, I make sure he knows that they are not real, but part of a story. Then we can talk about character actions and motivations. He also understands about actors and special effects in live-action movies.

When he asks me about death, I tell him that every living thing eventually dies and that no one really knows what happens after we die. I told him that some people believe we get reborn as new living things and some people think we turn into angels. I also told him that I don't believe anything happens to us after we die and that we should focus on what happens while we're alive. If we spend too much time thinking about dying, then it makes living a lot less enjoyable.

When he asks about God (thanks, Mom :rolleyes:) I tell him that lots of people have believed in lots of different gods. I've also told him that I don't believe in any gods. If he choses to believe in some god at a later date, then that will be his choice. I will do my best to educate him and encourage him to think critically about everything (including drugs, booze, and sex), but it is ultimately his decision. I can't think for him.

The bottom line is that I always tell my child the truth, even if it is filtered and framed in an age-appropriate way. I do not promote true belief in fictional characters or events. And, wouldn't you know it, my son is a happy, well-adjusted, creative, and imaginative child. He is also able to trust me.


Excellent post! It has given me a lot to think about.:)

This is something I have been struggling with concerning our 22 month old. My wife, though, is totally in favor of continuing the Santa myth. (Fortunately, she is not religious, but I wouldn't call her a skeptic.) So I have been thinking of going along with it at least at first and trying to tie in his eventual disbelief to demonstrate the importance of critical thinking. Still, it bothers me to be put in a situation where I feel I have to lie.

[slingblade]

I believed in all kinds of imaginary things as a child, and it did not help me become a rational, logical adult. In fact, I had role-models for rationality and logic....Sherlock Holmes and Mr. Spock. One may recognize them as being imaginary, too.

Because of Holmes, I became...one might call it pathologically observant. But about the wrong things. And my reasoning skills didn't really improve. :)

I had fun believing in Santa, the Tooth Fairy, the Easter Bunny. I had no fun believing in God. He seemed out to get me. Today, could I change things, I would not teach my children that Santa is real. I would teach them that he is a fun figure for the holidays, but he isn't real. And as for God, ibid.

[lightcreatedlife@hom]

I believed in all kinds of imaginary things as a child, and it did not help me become a rational, logical adult. In fact, I had role-models for rationality and logic....Sherlock Holmes and Mr. Spock. One may recognize them as being imaginary, too.

Because of Holmes, I became...one might call it pathologically observant. But about the wrong things. And my reasoning skills didn't really improve. :)

Oh no, I think that same thing happened to me. Oh well... I have no other choice but make wrong right.