OK the Clock is ticking [Archive]

Starthinker

2nd August 2007, 05:50 PM

For what it's worth, I was thinking the same thing. This is once again a major event that happened out of the blue with no prior warning, psychic or otherwise, but I know someone somewhere will exploit it with woo. There are still 24-30 cars underwater, according to some reports, with 30 people still missing, I'm surprised some psychic somewhere isn't talking to these unfortunate souls to prove how psychic they are. Or some such thing.

I wasn't going to start a thread unless it happened first, but I guess speculation is a valid discussion as well.

T'ai Chi

2nd August 2007, 06:10 PM

If you think there can be "unwarranted shots at psychics" then me thinks you be in the wrong place to post your opinion.

Sure there is, if you're interested in skepticism that is, and responsibly investigating claims, rather than personal attacks.

For example, going on about Geller's 'true' last name (http://www.randi.org/jr/2007-07/072707bashing.html#i3), who cares, because it doesn't involve any claim of psychic or whatever power.

Locknar

2nd August 2007, 07:22 PM

For example, going on about Geller's 'true' last name (http://www.randi.org/jr/2007-07/072707bashing.html#i3), who cares, because it doesn't involve any claim of psychic or whatever power.

If Geller can't be honest about something as simple as his name....wonder what else he might be dishonest about?

It goes to his credibility as a person....if you can't/don't see the connection, oh well :)

TTLer

2nd August 2007, 07:51 PM

OK the Clock is ticking

Which lying SOB psychic will be the first to exploit the Minn. Bridge Collapse?
My money is on Sylvia.

I agree with and appreciate the sentiment of the original post. Kudos to kedo1981.

I don't understand how forum posters with 8,000 and 10,000 posts here can possibly defend psychics in any way without compromising their integrity.

Reality Believer

2nd August 2007, 08:07 PM

OK the Clock is ticking

Which lying SOB psychic will be the first to exploit the Minn. Bridge Collapse?
My money is on Sylvia.

They are not psychic, but the History Channel broadcast "The History of Bridge Disasters in the United States" several days ago, and now they are re-broadcasting it tonight. Psychic, opportunistic or lucky?

"Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportuniuty".

TTLer

2nd August 2007, 08:16 PM

They are not psychic, but the History Channel broadcast "The History of Bridge Disasters in the United States" several days ago, and now they are re-broadcasting it tonight. Psychic, opportunistic or lucky?

Option 3, followed by Option 2, obviously! :)

steve s

2nd August 2007, 09:57 PM

...but the History Channel broadcast "The History of Bridge Disasters in the United States" several days ago, .

But they show that about every other month. They just love showing that Tacoma Narrows footage.

Steve S.

arthwollipot

2nd August 2007, 10:57 PM

If Geller can't be honest about something as simple as his name....wonder what else he might be dishonest about?

It goes to his credibility as a person....if you can't/don't see the connection, oh well :)

Randi doesn't use his birth name either. Nor, for that matter, do Madonna and Ben Kingsley.

I think a lot more attention is being paid to an offhand remark in Swift than it deserves. Randi changed his name legally by deed poll. Does anyone here know whether Geller did the same? If so, then it cannot be used as an example of a lack of credibility as a person, since then Randi, Madonna and Ben Kingsley would also be tarred with the same brush.

My point is that lots of people in the public eye change their names, by deed poll, or by just common use. This does not reflect on their credibility in any way whatsoever.

CFLarsen

3rd August 2007, 12:22 AM

Sure there is, if you're interested in skepticism that is, and responsibly investigating claims, rather than personal attacks.

For example, going on about Geller's 'true' last name (http://www.randi.org/jr/2007-07/072707bashing.html#i3), who cares, because it doesn't involve any claim of psychic or whatever power.

And yet, you have been asked again and again to address Sylvia Browne's claim about Shawn Hornbeck. You have chickened out every single time.

tkingdoll

3rd August 2007, 03:15 AM

Let me see if got this right
You’re comparing a group of parasitic thieves and liars too innocent accident victims.

If that's what you read in my post then you have comprehension issues.

And pointing out that it’s only a matter of time before one of these pieces of filth starts “contacting” the dead involved in this accident is the same as exploiting them.

Yes, it's called 'sensationalism'.

You can’t be that new!

You're right, I can't be.

Let me explain something. There is a difference between skepticism and cynicism. Your thread here is a demonstration of cynicism, nothing more.

If and when a psychic or anyone else tries to exploit the bridge tragedy for personal gain, then it would make sense to start a thread about it. But when you started this one, you were basically venting at something that hasn't happened yet. Whilst I agree that there is such a thing as a foregone conclusion, I think it's plain silly to use the tragedy to score cheap points against a group who as yet haven't made any claims about it.

Fine, ago ahead and rant about scum-sucking parasites or whatever you want, but until you can demonstrate that any psychic has tried to exploit the bridge incident then you're tilting at windmills.

Unless the point of this thread was simply to say 'psychics exist, some of them are knowingly fraudulent, that makes me angry'. In which case, the bridge is irrelevant.

Big Les

3rd August 2007, 04:38 AM

I agree with and appreciate the sentiment of the original post. Kudos to kedo1981.

I don't understand how forum posters with 8,000 and 10,000 posts here can possibly defend psychics in any way without compromising their integrity.

Posters like TKingdoll serve to remind the more cynical of us that we should give benefit of the doubt and resist an "us v them" mentality. Unfortunately given the nature of the beast, and the emotive aspect to what these people do, this is really tough to avoid (I find).

We can't all aspire to Spock-style, Zen-like scepticism, but we can keep our cynical side in check to the point where we aren't posting threads as (technically) baseless as this one. Not that I personally have a problem with speculation like this; you can be pretty damned sure that someone will claim that they predicted it.

Ol' Bri seems to be a bit coy about claiming to have done so, despite having a dream in his archive (http://www.briansprediction.com/dd/603.htm)about a bridge at some stage that he would normally have little compunction about force-fitting.

Mojo

3rd August 2007, 05:15 AM

If Geller can't be honest about something as simple as his name...

I don't see any indication that he has been dishonest about his name. Randi says that his name was "Gellér György". Since "Geller" is the family name and "Uri" is a diminutive of György, he appears to be using his original name.

SomeGuy

3rd August 2007, 05:38 AM

If that's what you read in my post then you have comprehension issues.

Yes, it's called 'sensationalism'.

You're right, I can't be.

Let me explain something. There is a difference between skepticism and cynicism. Your thread here is a demonstration of cynicism, nothing more.

If and when a psychic or anyone else tries to exploit the bridge tragedy for personal gain, then it would make sense to start a thread about it. But when you started this one, you were basically venting at something that hasn't happened yet. Whilst I agree that there is such a thing as a foregone conclusion, I think it's plain silly to use the tragedy to score cheap points against a group who as yet haven't made any claims about it.

Fine, ago ahead and rant about scum-sucking parasites or whatever you want, but until you can demonstrate that any psychic has tried to exploit the bridge incident then you're tilting at windmills.

Unless the point of this thread was simply to say 'psychics exist, some of them are knowingly fraudulent, that makes me angry'. In which case, the bridge is irrelevant.

Lacking time to write an indepth response I just want to say:

Hear, hear!

(The fact that psychic ARE scum-sucking parasites, doesn't give us the perogatory(sp?) to pre-emptively lash out at them over the back of tragedy victims. We should aspire to higher morales than them.)

Locknar

3rd August 2007, 05:45 AM

Randi doesn't use his birth name either. Nor, for that matter, do Madonna and Ben Kingsley.

[snip]

My point is that lots of people in the public eye change their names, by deed poll, or by just common use. This does not reflect on their credibility in any way whatsoever.

I don't see any indication that he has been dishonest about his name. Randi says that his name was "Gellér György". Since "Geller" is the family name and "Uri" is a diminutive of György, he appears to be using his original name.

True...folkes like Madonna, Ben Kinglsey, etc. do not use their birth names; though they are not claiming to have paranormal powers.

That said...I stand corrected. The only issue wrt credibility would be if Geller (as an example) claimed otherwise wrt his name...to my knowledge he never has.

Tricky

3rd August 2007, 08:21 AM

Well, here's the first (http://boston.craigslist.org/gbs/com/387644435.html).
Sources say that it is way too coincidental the bridge collapsed the same day Kevin Garnett was traded to the Boston Celtics. A gentleman (to remain anonymous) from the neighboring city said 1000s of Timberwolves season ticket holders were seen tampering with the bridge's foundation hours before ESPN announced the blockbuster trade in his psychic realm. The GHSA (Governors Highway Safety Association) of Minnesota have hired outside private investigators to follow up on the psychic's mental sightings and claim. Timberwolves fans were reluctant to comment on the bridge collapse but expressed their sadness to see KG go to the "Luck of the Irish".

Not just a psychic, but a CT theorist too. Bridge collapse was caused by thousands of distraught Kevin Garnett fans.

DJM

3rd August 2007, 08:37 AM

Steve Knight

3rd August 2007, 09:24 AM

Actually the "revelation" about Uri's christian name is old news, although the derivation given by Randi's source differs from Geller's own account. Which is closer to the truth I can't say. The following is taken from "Uri Geller - magician or mystic?" by Jonathan Margolis.

"At customs in Larnaca, a real surprise was awaiting Uri - a new name. 'The officer looked at my name Uri, and he said Uri in Russian is Yuri, and that is actually George. So on the spot, they wrote down George and that was my name at school for the next seven years.'"

Source: www.uri-geller.com/books/magician-or-mystic/chapter3.htm

chillzero

3rd August 2007, 09:29 AM

Back to topic, speculation about the safety of this bridge were raised decades ago, so many people not claiming to be psychic already predicted it.

Starthinker

3rd August 2007, 11:40 AM

Back to topic, speculation about the safety of this bridge were raised decades ago, so many people not claiming to be psychic already predicted it.

Not exactly. A deficient rating does not mean, or is not supposed to mean, that the bridge was unsafe. I think they said 7,000 (or was it 70,000?) bridges have the same ratings and many have worse ratings yet they are still in service and considered safe. No one said it was in danger of collapsing.

Imagine if they closed all the bridges that had this rating.

ETA: 70,000.

According to Minnesota Gov. Tim Pawlenty, speaking Thursday afternoon at a press conference, there are no fewer 70,000 to 80,000 bridges in the U.S. in the same category; at least another 80,000 are considered "functionally obsolete," or not up to current design standards, another label that fails to testify to a structure's safety for travel.

From here: http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20070803/us_time/whydidthebridgefall;_ylt=AqSXAmfFXyUPsTb483o5Qh.s0 NUE

JoeTheJuggler

3rd August 2007, 02:07 PM

Not exactly. A deficient rating does not mean, or is not supposed to mean, that the bridge was unsafe. I think they said 7,000 (or was it 70,000?) bridges have the same ratings and many have worse ratings yet they are still in service and considered safe. No one said it was in danger of collapsing.

Starthinker, you seem to know something about this stuff. I'd always thought the collapse of interstate bridges was darn near impossible (barring earthquakes, bombs and the like)--that they were over structured by orders of magnitude, and well-maintained and inspected. Is this not so? And if so, would you rate this incident as an extremely rare event?

<derail> The crumbling of our infrastructure in general scares me MUCH more than the prospect of terrorist attack. A lot of the stuff under our feet and wheels is getting pretty old. Our lives depend on a lot of that stuff.<derail>

Starthinker

3rd August 2007, 07:03 PM

Starthinker, you seem to know something about this stuff. I'd always thought the collapse of interstate bridges was darn near impossible (barring earthquakes, bombs and the like)--that they were over structured by orders of magnitude, and well-maintained and inspected. Is this not so? And if so, would you rate this incident as an extremely rare event?

<derail> The crumbling of our infrastructure in general scares me MUCH more than the prospect of terrorist attack. A lot of the stuff under our feet and wheels is getting pretty old. Our lives depend on a lot of that stuff.<derail>

Oh, I'm not expert except that living in the area our local news has been bombarding us with bridge facts that don't seem to make it on CNN, Fox, and other national news shows. It's really amazing to see the difference in coverage. Local news: Bridge facts, tales of heroism, what the police and fire departments were doing, alternate routes, recovery efforts, etc. National news channels: Who's to blame, who dropped the ball, who's to blame, who's to blame. I guess it's just perspective or I'm being biased, but that's my observation.

All you hear on CNN or Fox is the bridge had a deficient rating, but they just aren't telling the whole story about how this is same rating as 70-80,000 other bridges out there.

I do think they are over-engineered so it is amazing that this would just fall from structural failure. I think the local news said this has only happened twice before, but at least they didn't mention that one of these times gave rise to the Mothman legend. I've really been watching for a reference to that but thank goodness no one has brought it up so far. I have a bet with my son that it's mentioned within three weeks, so if anyone hears it, let me know.

arthwollipot

5th August 2007, 09:54 PM

Uri is a well known Israeli name, I've never heard of the name György before over here. If it's pronounced the same, then it makes 100% sense that he would start calling himself Uri instead.

I can't stand Uri and and all his lies, but Randi seems pretty childish about this issue.

HOT NEWS
A scientist friend in Hungary has looked into Uri Geller’s background and discovered that his original name appears to have been “Gellér György.” (Formally, the family name appears first, in Hungary.) “György” is the equivalent of George, and in the diminutive form “Gyuri” – the equivalent of “Georgie” – is pronounced to sound like “Uri.”
My, my! This man is just full of surprises!

Doesn't appear particularly childish to me. Less than 100 words on the subject. Looks to me more like an offhand "hey, whaddaya know?" comment. It's not like Randi is going on and on about it.

SezMe

5th August 2007, 10:13 PM

I don't understand how forum posters with 8,000 and 10,000 posts here can possibly defend psychics in any way without compromising their integrity.
I don't understand how a poster with 30 posts can have such a problem with his/her reading skills. You want to point to a specific location where teek defended psychics?

Tipush

6th August 2007, 04:39 AM

If Geller can't be honest about something as simple as his name....wonder what else he might be dishonest about?

It goes to his credibility as a person....if you can't/don't see the connection, oh well :)

I would usually agree with anything against Uri Geller except this.

Alot of families that came to Israel especially after the holocaust, changed their names to something more "Israeli". When my mother came to Israel as a very young girl her name was Anna and was changed to Hanna (small difference but it means the world) her brother was changed from Herbert to Tzvi (same meaning, only in hebrew).

In some and most cases, the people coming here had nothing to do with the change itself, but were forced to change it.

In my honest opinion it has nothing to do with credibility.

As much as I support Randi. I think he should have checked out the facts before posting on swift.

Tipush

Safe-Keeper

6th August 2007, 05:28 AM

Which lying SOB psychic will be the first to exploit the Minn. Bridge Collapse?You forget the fundies. This one (http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/TasteAndSee/ByDate/2007/2278_Putting_My_Daughter_to_Bed_Two_Hours_After_th e_Bridge_Collapsed/) beat the psychics by days or weeks with his statement that the collapse is their Loving God(TM)'s punishment to us for some Sin.

Oh, I'm not expert except that living in the area our local news has been bombarding us with bridge facts that don't seem to make it on CNN, Fox, and other national news shows. It's really amazing to see the difference in coverage. Local news: Bridge facts, tales of heroism, what the police and fire departments were doing, alternate routes, recovery efforts, etc. National news channels: Who's to blame, who dropped the ball, who's to blame, who's to blame. I guess it's just perspective or I'm being biased, but that's my observation.Oh yes, you'll see that. I extensively (in my eyes) studied a certain landslide in Norway while writing a Wiki article on it, and it was incredible how varied the news coverage was. For example, one article described how rescue workers were not prepared for landslides and pretty much had to dig out survivors with their bare hands. Another article praised the rescue workers for arriving on scene when they did, rapidly evacuating houses, moving survivors to neighbors and hotels around the city (or to the hospital of course, in the case of the wounded), and in general doing a heroic effort.

So it's all about angle, giving people what they want to hear. If they want tales of heroism, tell them about the heroes. If they want someone to lash out at, tell them how the municipality neglected this or the experts were wrong on that. When you think about it, it's more than a bit childish.

Locknar

6th August 2007, 07:16 AM

Tipush - Noted; I corrected my statement in post #21, from 3 AUG 0845.

The only credibility issue would be if Geller ever denied changing this name, which to my knowledge he never has.

Mojo

6th August 2007, 07:36 AM

You forget the fundies. This one (http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/TasteAndSee/ByDate/2007/2278_Putting_My_Daughter_to_Bed_Two_Hours_After_th e_Bridge_Collapsed/) beat the psychics by days or weeks with his statement that the collapse is their Loving God(TM)'s punishment to us for some Sin.

And, of course, Fred Phelps has got in on the act...

arthwollipot

6th August 2007, 07:34 PM

Can't someone just drop that guy off a cliff and put us out of his misery?

Orthoptera

7th August 2007, 03:43 AM

I think the local news said this has only happened twice before, but at least they didn't mention that one of these times gave rise to the Mothman legend. I've really been watching for a reference to that but thank goodness no one has brought it up so far. I have a bet with my son that it's mentioned within three weeks, so if anyone hears it, let me know.

This isn't a mainstream outlet, but ...
http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/mn-bridge/
http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/i-35w-blues/

Starthinker

7th August 2007, 06:33 AM

This isn't a mainstream outlet, but ...
http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/mn-bridge/
http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/i-35w-blues/

Wow, there is so much stretching in those articles I'm surprised their arms didn't come off. It's like playing "6 Degrees of Seperation" with names and places. So someone blogged about Mothman the same day counts as a sighting of Mothman before the bridge collapse? Give me a break.

These articles are a perfect example of how far someone will go to link two events.

EHocking

8th August 2007, 03:27 AM

Wow, there is so much stretching in those articles I'm surprised their arms didn't come off. It's like playing "6 Degrees of Seperation" with names and places. So someone blogged about Mothman the same day counts as a sighting of Mothman before the bridge collapse? Give me a break.

These articles are a perfect example of how far someone will go to link two events.Here's another:
08.02.2007
The Man Who Predicted the Bridge Collapse. Maybe. (http://discovermagazine.com/2007/aug/man-who-predicted-the-bridge-collapse)
Henry Petroski says it was bound to happen sometime soon.
by Brittany Grayson

...Petroski is a professor of civil engineering at Duke University and design guru who has extensively studied—and sung the praises of—spectacular design failures, saying they lead to major progress. This was the subject of his book Success through Failure.

He's also known for popularizing the theory that there's major bridge collapse every 30 years; extrapolating from the West Gate Bridge disaster in 1970, the world was due for another major collapse in 2000. It seems we may have gotten it only seven years late.Fairly typical forcing of events to a "prediction". ONLY 7 years late?!

And of course there are a number of woo bleevers post-dicting their "feelings":
http://joebrainardspyjamas.blogspot.com/2007/08/psychic-foreknowledgevision-of-bridge.html
Thursday, August 2, 2007
Psychic Foreknowledge/Vision of Bridge Collapse?

This is weird but true: As my partner and I were driving home from Wal-mart (where else) two nights ago, I had one of my very infrequent precognitive flashes. Just as we were passing the Cat equipment place that has like hundreds of cranes and heavy equipment, I said to my partner, who was driving "I just had the weirdest feeling of things suddenly falling down...like this great heaviness...i think out west" and he said "earthquake, I guess?...they're due" and I said "maybe, but if it happens you heard it here first." It was just a general type image...Sad, deluded little people will use anything to reinforce their beliefs...

Starthinker

8th August 2007, 06:38 AM

Okay, here is a tidbit I'd been saving. I had a dream or two about a bridge collapse the week before it happened. Only in my dream it was a giant turtle that caused a bridge over a crevasse, not a river, to fall in. I keep track of my dreams because I'm fascinated by the whole phenomenon and at the time I attributed it to watching a clip from a Godzilla movie and I always got a kick out of the giant turtle that could fly by shooting fire from its leg holes and spinning around. Now I know this only coincidence and I'm sure that somewhere in the U.S. hundreds of people dream about bridges falling every night, it's very symbolic, but if I were prone to woo I could see where I could shoe horn this in to a prophecy. Since I keep good track of my dreams I see a lot of this kind of thing. Only problem is that I keep track of the misses, too, so I see it for what it is, coincidence. Maybe one dream in 500 or 1000 coincides with something that then happens.

This is why I'm surprised stories like the above from EHocking aren't flying out of the woodwork. Then there are the people who dreamed about the bridge the night it happened, but now, a week later, may remember having that dream the night before, and so on. Or dreamed about cars falling. Or something bad happening in Minnesota. Or even of a schoolbus in danger. I can see how people prone to not thinking critically can think they had a vision of things to come. To me, it's kind of fascinating to see how beliefs come about.

It's also kind of refreshing to see that a hundred people didn't come forward claiming they had a vision, and to see psychics staying quiet. I still think they will, given time, but for now I haven't seen any mainstream woo about the bridge yet. Just the few examples posted here.