Students must remember 'God' in Texas pledge

[Temporal Renegade]

Words fail me....
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/5020241.html

It was sponsored by State Rep. Debbie Riddle, R-Tomball.

Any relation to Tom Riddle of Harry Potter fame...?

[Cleon]

Any relation to Tom Riddle of Harry Potter fame...?


Makes you wonder which is real and which is the joke (http://www.goats.com/store/stickers.html).

[Miss Anthrope]

How can this be legal?:shocked:

[quixotecoyote]

Who's going to challenge it?

[Hourglassmemory]

Even if students say it it won't change the minds of those who don't believe in God.
Most of them will be "Ohh, ok whatever." and say it.

They won't be aknowledging anything.
I think it won' tbe too long until someone from that state makes the news when declining to say that part.

[Ladewig]

Riddle said, "Our Texas pledge is perfectly OK like it is with the exception of acknowledging that just as we are one nation under God, we are one state under God as well."

I'd like to propose a bill that prohibits lawmakers who cannot correctly speak English from interfering with what happens in Texas schools.


By law, students who object to saying the pledge or making the reference to God can bring a written note from home excusing them from participating.

Haven't the courts already decided that students that do not want to recite the pledge of Allegiance do not need written permission?

[strathmeyer]

How can this be legal?:shocked:

Because the Supreme Court of the United States of America has already ruled that the phrase "In God We Trust" is not a religious phrase.

[Miss Anthrope]

Because the Supreme Court of the United States of America has already ruled that the phrase "In God We Trust" is not a religious phrase.

I hate the world.

[Temporal Renegade]

Makes you wonder which is real and which is the joke (http://www.goats.com/store/stickers.html).

You know things are getting really out of hand, when you can't tell...

[jimlintott]

Can the Muslim kids just substitute Allah?

[Temporal Renegade]

Can the Muslim kids just substitute Allah?

If they did, it's probably a sure bet that they'd be called 'Un-American'.

[Fizzer]

Haven't the courts already decided that students that do not want to recite the pledge of Allegiance do not need written permission?

Jehovah's Witnesses took this to the Supreme Court long ago and won. No one can be forced to recite a pledge like that, and cannot be punished for refusing.

[Susan Gerbic]

Are we talking about Texas home of American Atheists? Where Madeline Murry-O'Hare lived and died? This won't float. The ACLU will be all over this in a second. Just wait until the school year starts. Forcing religion on people will only backfire and Texas will find itself unable to have a pledge at all.

Of course this should be taken seriously, we shouldn't stand back and wait for someone else to do something.

Here in California my children would be in the school office making waves the first day. On the day the Catholic pope died, my youngest son (at the time 13 years old)asked for an apt with the principal. When he got to see the principal my son wanted to know why they were flying the flag at half staff for the Pope. The principal said that he was ordered by the President of the U.S. that all public buildings must fly the flag at half-staff, his hands were tied. He then told my son that he should be a lawyer someday.

I never heard a thing until it was all over. Funny, in a way I think the world will be a better place when our kids take over the government. Yes, I do tend to see most things as positive.

Susan

[Temporal Renegade]

Are we talking about Texas home of American Atheists? Where Madeline Murry-O'Hare lived and died? This won't float. The ACLU will be all over this in a second. Just wait until the school year starts. Forcing religion on people will only backfire and Texas will find itself unable to have a pledge at all.

Of course this should be taken seriously, we shouldn't stand back and wait for someone else to do something.

Here in California my children would be in the school office making waves the first day. On the day the Catholic pope died, my youngest son (at the time 13 years old)asked for an apt with the principal. When he got to see the principal my son wanted to know why they were flying the flag at half staff for the Pope. The principal said that he was ordered by the President of the U.S. that all public buildings must fly the flag at half-staff, his hands were tied. He then told my son that he should be a lawyer someday.

I never heard a thing until it was all over. Funny, in a way I think the world will be a better place when our kids take over the government. Yes, I do tend to see most things as positive.

Susan

Bravo for your son! :)

[T'ai Chi]

Better get rid of the moment of silence too. That might be endorsing religion because it is prayer-like, right?

[wollery]

Better get rid of the moment of silence too. That might be endorsing religion because it is prayer-like, right?:nope:

[Foster Zygote]

:nope:

I know, it's like he isn't even trying anymore. Alas I fear our troll is wearing out. Time to get a new one.

[fishbait]

When he got to see the principal my son wanted to know why they were flying the flag at half staff for the Pope. The principal said that he was ordered by the President of the U.S. that all public buildings must fly the flag at half-staff, his hands were tied.

SusanGood for your son. The world needs more like him.

However, the President was correct. The U.S. recognizes The Vatican as a sovereign state. The Pope exercises supreme legislative, executive, and judicial power over the Holy See and the State of the Vatican City.
By U.S. law, the Pope is entitled to flag honors due any head of state.

Created in 1929 to provide a territorial identity for the Holy See in Rome, the State of Vatican City is a recognized national territory under international law. The Holy See enters into international agreements and receives and sends diplomatic representatives.

[Cello Man]

Better get rid of the moment of silence too. That might be endorsing religion because it is prayer-like, right?

The "moment of silence" is constitutional so I have no legal beef with it. No one is forced to participate, and there is no specific religious activity as the end goal.

Tell me something. If you lived in a predominately Islamic country, would you ok with having to say "Allah Akbar" in place of "in God we trust"? Would you allow your children to be coerced into saying it? Why should someone else's religious beliefs take precedence over yours, or vice versa? Either scenario is simply a case of "freedom for me, but not for thee".

The moment of silence is just dandy because no one is forced to do anything.

[strathmeyer]

The moment of silence is just dandy because no one is forced to do anything.

The aren't forced to be silent?

[Cello Man]

The aren't forced to be silent?

No more than they're "forced" to listen to a teacher's lecture. Disrupting either could get you sent to the principal, but it's not like disrupting a moment of silence carries the punishment of burning at the stake or having to say a thousand "Hail Marys".

Speaking as a guy who is unquestionably in favor of seperation of the church and state, I can't really see a problem with the whole moment of silence thing. As silly as I think prayer is, at least the moment of silence doesn't blatantly thrust a religous agenda in anyone's face.

On top of that, when I was in high school hardly anyone noticably prayed anyway. (No closed eyes, bowed head, or lips mouthing prayers). I'd say 99% of the students just use that time to furiously complete the homework that's due once the 30 seconds of silence is over.

[Cello Man]

For the sake of answering the OP: Yeah, this law is nonsense. I live in Texas and I'll fight this however I can. If I had kids right now and money wasn't an issue, they'd be in private school.

(apply Texas drawl) Our school system done broke. (cease drawl)

[qayak]

Better get rid of the moment of silence too. That might be endorsing religion because it is prayer-like, right?

Better get rid of it because it is meditation-like and might allow satan to enter your empty mind.

[qayak]

Good for your son. The world needs more like him.

However, the President was correct. The U.S. recognizes The Vatican as a sovereign state. The Pope exercises supreme legislative, executive, and judicial power over the Holy See and the State of the Vatican City.
By U.S. law, the Pope is entitled to flag honors due any head of state.

And this is why all catholic properties should not be tax exempt, their leadership is a political entity.

[Meadmaker]

Can the Muslim kids just substitute Allah?

There's no point. It's just a translation. It would be like the Hispanic kids substituting "Dios" in an otherwise English pledge.


I'm guessing that this one will actually manage to provoke the lawsuit that the atheists will win. The anti-pledge lawsuits lost largely because people figured that it was ok to just leave well enough alone, and students could skip the "God" part if they thought it was really important. Actually trying to change the law and ram it down their throats will, I predict, be seen differently.

[triadboy]

Better get rid of the moment of silence too. That might be endorsing religion because it is prayer-like, right?


Yes I agree - get rid of it. They can pray at home before school. Why do Xians feel the need to pray like peacocks?

[triadboy]

State Rep. Debbie Riddle, who sponsored the bill, said it had always bothered her that God was omitted in the state's pledge.

"Personally, I felt like the Texas pledge had a big old hole in it, and it occurred to me, 'You know what? We need to fix that,' " said Riddle, R-Tomball. "Our Texas pledge is perfectly OK like it is with the exception of acknowledging that just as we are one nation under God, we are one state under God as well."

She's employing a grammatical bait and switch.

[EatatJoes]

Yes I agree - get rid of it. They can pray at home before school. Why do Xians feel the need to pray like peacocks?

I never thought this as being a prayer thing. It just never occurred to me. I think it's just a way to acknowledge whatever happened. "This bad thing happened. Let's all take a moment to acknowledge it".

[JoeTheJuggler]

One nation, under Zeus?

One nation, under the Flying Spaghetti Monster?

[Achán hiNidráne]

I'd like to propose a bill that prohibits lawmakers who cannot correctly speak English from interfering with what happens in Texas schools.

I would like like to propose a bill that would make the entire state of Texas a nuclear missile/bomb practice range... effective immediately.

To paraphrase my favorite movie: "Nuke 'em from orbit. It's the only way to be sure."

(Fundies seems to share a lot in common with the fictitious xenomorphs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenomorph_%28Alien%29), what being parasites and all.)

"Personally, I felt like the Texas pledge had a big old hole in it, and it occurred to me, 'You know what? We need to fix that,' " said Riddle, R-Tomball. "Our Texas pledge is perfectly OK like it is with the exception of acknowledging that just as we are one nation under God, we are one state under God as well."This stupid, Bible-beating, bitch (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2RDpWAxY9Y)doesn't know that the phrase "under god" was added to the U.S. Pledge (which, for all you hard core conservatives out there, was written by a socialist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pledge_of_Allegiance#History)) in the 1950s as mindless political propaganda.

History is repeating itself, beseems. I hope this law and Riddle's political career get stomped, and stomped hard.

[UnrepentantSinner]

I would like like to propose a bill that would make the entire state of Texas a nuclear missile/bomb practice range... effective immediately.

Do not confuse the state with some of the insanity that takes place in Austin. It gets hot enough down here in the summer thank you very much.

[Zep]

Reminds me strongly of the greatly amusing Loyalty Oath crusade snippet from Catch 22. ;)

[Tony]

This idiot is represents Tomball.


Enough said.

[Mark]

Reminds me strongly of the greatly amusing Loyalty Oath crusade snippet from Catch 22. ;)


OMG, it does!

[Susan Gerbic]

Good for your son. The world needs more like him.

However, the President was correct. The U.S. recognizes The Vatican as a sovereign state. The Pope exercises supreme legislative, executive, and judicial power over the Holy See and the State of the Vatican City.
By U.S. law, the Pope is entitled to flag honors due any head of state.

Created in 1929 to provide a territorial identity for the Holy See in Rome, the State of Vatican City is a recognized national territory under international law. The Holy See enters into international agreements and receives and sends diplomatic representatives.

Soooo if the President of Uganda or Venezuela or Cuba dies, then our schools and government offices fly flags at half staff?

Susan

[ponderingturtle]

Because the Supreme Court of the United States of America has already ruled that the phrase "In God We Trust" is not a religious phrase.

Hmm, this might mean that the part of the Texas constitution requiring public employees believe in a supreme being might be legal.

[HarryKeogh]

"Here's your permission slip, son, so you don't have to say the God part in the pledge. Oh and have fun getting beat up and being called a Satan worshipper at school ."

[Ladewig]

"Here's your permission slip, son, so you don't have to say the God part in the pledge. Oh and have fun getting beat up and being called a Satan worshipper at school ."

I was thinking about posting this thought to help our overseas friends understand how life in the southern United States works.

[UnrepentantSinner]

Hmm, this might mean that the part of the Texas constitution requiring public employees believe in a supreme being might be legal.

Office holders, not public employees. And no, they're different. Ruling that "In God We Trust" is ceremonial deism is different from having a religious test for office that violates Article VI and applies to the states under the 14th Amendment.

[ponderingturtle]

Office holders, not public employees. And no, they're different. Ruling that "In God We Trust" is ceremonial deism is different from having a religious test for office that violates Article VI and applies to the states under the 14th Amendment.

Hey Texas has the same restriction, no religious tests. You just need to believe in a Supreme Being.

No religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office, or public trust, in this State; nor shall any one be excluded from holding office on account of his religious sentiments, provided he acknowledge the existence of a Supreme Being.

[Safe-Keeper]

Utterly insane. But then again, so is the whole idea of pledging allegiance to your country every single weekday. What's the idea, that the pledged allegiance so weak that it has to be renewed at the start of every day? That's some patriotism there. Better celebrate July 4th every Saturday, too, just to make sure US students don't turn un-American.

First remove 'under God', then remove the daily pledge. Job done.

Because the Supreme Court of the United States of America has already ruled that the phrase "In God We Trust" is not a religious phrase.I honestly was under the impression that rulings had to be based on some sort of... fact and logic. Evidently I was wrong.

Better get rid of the moment of silence too. That might be endorsing religion because it is prayer-like, right?I don't suffer from certain fundies' seemingly obsessive-compulsive need to label everything around them 'religious', so no, I don't think a secular moment of silence should be banned. In fact, it's a great system that allows every student to do exactly as his faith or train of thought commands him - as long as he doesn't do it out loud.

"Here's your permission slip, son, so you don't have to say the God part in the pledge. Oh and have fun getting beat up and being called a Satan worshipper at school ."I am infinitely glad I was not an atheist, not to mention an open atheist, for any of the three years I lived in Houston.

[UnrepentantSinner]

Hey Texas has the same restriction, no religious tests. You just need to believe in a Supreme Being.

Article VI doesn't have any qualifiers and I'm willing to bet, via the 14th Amendment that section 4's "provided" would be considered a religious test.

Look, don't make me join a campeign effort to elect an atheist governor of Texas so we can have a test case... I just don't have the energy for that sort of stuff. :D

[Safe-Keeper]

Who's going to challenge it?You know just as well as me that whoever does will be faced with a barrage of 'why do you make such a big deal out of something so minor?!', yelled at 1000db by people who find it everything but unimportant.

Same thing happened when they had this debate a few years ago in Norway on whether or not to remove an obligatory prayer before lunch in elementary schools. The battle cry of the fundamentalists was that this was a huge misallocation of the education minister's time and resources, that it didn't matter one bit, etc. etc. etc. Not one fundie ever explained to me why they fought tooth and nail for the prayer when they themselves said they deemed it so utterly insignificant:boggled:.

It's the same tactic they use when they go 'well, why can't you just say it and be done with it', making it sound minor and insignificant and unimportant - as if they'd grin and bear it if someone made them pledge allegiance to 'One Nation under Manitu'.

Oh, and sgf8, your son is great.

[Mpmagi]

What did you expect from the state that brought us King Georgies? I hope there annexed by Mexico soon...

Oh, then they'd all be coming up north... Is there a way to geographically separate the most backwards state in the union?

[Safe-Keeper]

Yes. Give it back to Mexico. Although you'll probably have to fight another war to get them to accept it.

[ponderingturtle]

Article VI doesn't have any qualifiers and I'm willing to bet, via the 14th Amendment that section 4's "provided" would be considered a religious test.


With the current supreme court? I am not as sure that such a reading would work.

[ponderingturtle]

You know just as well as me that whoever does will be faced with a barrage of 'why do you make such a big deal out of something so minor?!', yelled at 1000db by people who find it everything but unimportant.
.

Look if I ever hear a noise at 1000 db I will not be there after it to worry

For example 255 db is a 600 kiloton nuclear bomb.

So I am confortable with the idea that any 1000 db noise would not leave enough left of the earth for me to really worry about much after that.

[Paulhoff]

Under who’s idea of a so-called god do we pledge.

Paul

:) :) :)

[Horatius]

Hey Texas has the same restriction, no religious tests. You just need to believe in a Supreme Being.



I do believe in a supreme being.


Just not the one they probably expect. (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000185/bio)

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

I don't know about you but I'm offended that kids who've graduated from the 4th grade still have the say the Pledge of Allegiance in the first place. Here in New York City, we only have to say it every day in elementary school. When my acquaintance from Texas told me it's the law that they have to say it throughout high school...I mean, after the first 1,000 times you say it in your life, I think you've got it!

[Paulhoff]

Why should you have to Pledge Allegiance to a flag, the cloth it is made of could have been made into underwear if it went to another factory.

Paul

:) :) :)

[Sherman Bay]

Can the Muslim kids just substitute Allah?"...One nation, under {insert name of personal deity here}, with liberty and justice for {insert your group name here}."

[Sherman Bay]

Because the Supreme Court of the United States of America has already ruled that the phrase "In God We Trust" is not a religious phrase.Nitpick: The phrase in question is not "In God We Trust". And so far, one circuit court has ruled that "under God" must be removed from the national Pledge (Newdow case). It just hasn't played itself out yet. It's hung up at one step below the Supremes.

I think the recent Texas news story strengthens the position of those who claim that "under God" in the national Pledge was inserted for a religious reason by religious zealots, and that makes it more offensive than just a "ceremonial deism" phrase.

Surely a religious phrase inserted for a religious reason to an otherwise secular oath violates the Establishment clause. I can't see how the courts can rule otherwise.

[Ladewig]

What did you expect from the state that brought us King Georgies? I hope there annexed by Mexico soon...

Oh, then they'd all be coming up north... Is there a way to geographically separate the most backwards state in the union?

Texas has its faults (as indicated by the topic of this thread) but I think you are overreaching to call it "the most backwards state in the Union." Mississippi and Alabama are very much in the running for that title. Even Louisiana and Georgia occasionally make attempts to take the crown.



. . . . . . .
ETA: from the article in the OP

Mississippi and Louisiana mention God in their [state] pledges. And Kentucky lays claim to being blessed with "grace from on High."

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

About the Muslim kids and the "Under God" stuff: way back in elementary school, I had a Muslim friend that was very upset over that. She would just stand there and pretend to talk or say it and leave out "under God", that's how much she disliked it. I think the other Muslim kids would do the same.

Sure, Muslims believe in "God", too, but think how a Christian would feel if they went to a Muslim nation and were forced every day to praise one nation under Allah. You'd know that they most certainly don't mean your God or your religion.

[Paulhoff]

Sure, Muslims believe in "God", too, but think how a Christian would feel if they went to a Muslim nation and were forced every day to praise one nation under Allah. You'd know that they most certainly don't mean your God or your religion.
That is the problem, whose idea of blankly blank so-called god is it, there are as many ideas of a so-called gods at there are people on this planet that believe in one and/or more, no two are alike in all ways.

Paul

:) :) :)

I wonder how many so-called gods there are in this universe.

[Safe-Keeper]

Sure, Muslims believe in "God", too, but think how a Christian would feel if they went to a Muslim nation and were forced every day to praise one nation under Allah.Or worse, if they went to a secular, multi-cultured nation hijacked by religious fundamentalists and were forced to recite a pledge of allegiance including 'Under Allah and his prophet Muhammed';).

I wonder how many so-called gods there are in this universe.0 [/cheapshot]

[Paulhoff]

No, that is the answer, none.

Now, how many so-called ideas of a god are there in the universe.

Paul

:) :) :)

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

Exactly. If you want to be fair, you should either have all or none. None makes it all equal.

[Temporal Renegade]

One nation, under Zeus?

One nation, under the Flying Spaghetti Monster?

I like the way you think! :D

[Temporal Renegade]

I do believe in a supreme being.


Just not the one they probably expect. (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000185/bio)

What?! You place him over HIM?! (http://www.chucknorrisfacts.com/) How could you?!

:D

[NobbyNobbs]

I never heard a thing until it was all over. Funny, in a way I think the world will be a better place when our kids take over the government. Yes, I do tend to see most things as positive.

Susan

Furthermore, I don't think we should wait until they grow up. Do it now. Make the maximum age limit for President 12. We'll have really great laws, like compulsory nap time and Oreos for dinner. I'm all for this idea.

Better get rid of the moment of silence too. That might be endorsing religion because it is prayer-like, right?

There is nothing inherently religious about keeping your mouth shut. Quite the opposite, in fact.... :rolleyes:

Soooo if the President of Uganda or Venezuela or Cuba dies, then our schools and government offices fly flags at half staff?

Susan
Actually, from what I recall from civics class, the flag flies at half staff for whomever the President decides it does. Recently flags were lowered for the death of Lady Bird Johnson, who is not and was never the head of any state. If the President wanted flags lowered to commemorate teh death of his dog, he could order it.

[Safe-Keeper]

Better get rid of the moment of silence too. That might be endorsing religion because it is prayer-like, right?Perhaps in your eyes, but this does not change the fact that in the end, it's not religious.

[Horatius]

What?! You place him over HIM?! (http://www.chucknorrisfacts.com/) How could you?!

:D



Was team leader for the United States modern pentathlon team at the 1996 summer olympics.

Holds a master's degree in chemical engineering. Was offered a Fulbright scholarship to study at MIT

He was European Heavyweight Karate Champion in 1980-81.

Australian Heavyweight Karate Champion in 1982.

He obtained his third degree black belt (third Dan) in Kyokushinkai Karate in July 1998

Plays the drums.

Speaks three languages: Swedish, English and some German

Served in the Swedish Marine Corps

Worked as a bouncer in New York City with Chazz Palminteri.




What's Chuck Norris got, other than a bad beard and some demented fanbois?

Worship the Dolph, Heathen!

Seriously, though, we need to clone this guy. Often. :)