1337m4n
5th August 2007, 02:16 PM
I will be shifting between two different versions of reality in this thread: actual reality, and the CTists' version of reality. When referring to the latter, I will use the term "CT Universe".
One particularly vocal critic of the 9/11 Truther movement is Maddox, pirate hero and author of "The Best Page in the Universe". His original attack against them was this article:
http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=911_morons
The central claim was that, if the CT Universe was reality, then the Truthers would all be dead. His argument:
1. The man in the picture above is Dylan Avery. To be more precise, the fact that Dylan, his friends, and family are alive, is proof that "Loose Change" is ********. He, along with a couple of his friends, created a 9/11 conspiracy video claiming that the US government and the military caused 9/11. Take a closer look at the last part of that last sentence: he's claiming that the US government, for whatever ends, killed nearly 3,000 innocent Americans, and tens if not hundreds of thousands of more lives in the conflicts that ensued because of it.
2. Since Dylan's arguing that the government has no problem killing 3,000 innocent people, this raises the question: if his documentary is true, and we've established that the government has no ethical qualms about killing thousands of its own people, then why wouldn't the government kill Avery and his friends as well? What's a few more lives to them to ensure the success of this conspiracy?
Whatever reason it may be that the government supposedly orchestrated this conspiracy, it must have been worth it to them to cause so much suffering and loss of life. So if there's any truth to this, then you can bet your ass that the government wouldn't let a couple of pecker-neck chumps with a couple of Macs and too much time on their hands jeopardise their entire operation by letting this stupid video float around on the Internet. I can picture you morons emailing me now: "BUT MADOX, MAYBE DYLAN POSTED IT ON THE INTERNET BEFORE THE GOVERNMENT HAD A CHANCE TO REMOVE IT LOL." Yeah, too bad this rebuttal is inconsistent with the premise of Dylan's ****-festival of a movie: that the WTC was brought down "in a carefully planned and controlled demolition ... and it was pulled off with military precision." Now we're expected to believe that the same government that was able to commit the largest terrorist operation in history--with military precision no less--is suddenly too incompetent to sniff out and shut down a little website set up by some college losers within days, if not minutes of its creation? The US government has the capability to monitor every electronic communication made anywhere in the world, yet we're expected to believe that they wouldn't be able to nix this kid long before his video ever became popular?
I win. There is no conspiracy. Eat my ****, losers.
Truthers, of course, had a ready response: that if they were to be killed, it would be too "suspicious". If all those "questioning" 9/11 suddenly disappeared, it would only cause even more people to question. This rebuttal was unique in that it was one of the few CT arguments to be accepted by even the skeptic/debunker community--very few debunkers have ever brought up the "why aren't CTists dead" point since.
I create this thread to revisit that argument, and to ask: Should we really be so quick to dismiss it? Should we accept the CTists rebuttal, just like that?
I think there are several flaws with the "killing us would be too suspicious" rebuttal:
1) In the CT Universe, I think it is fair to say that the government/NWO has proven time and time again that it doesn't give a [rule8] about not appearing "suspicious". This is evidenced by the fact that they felt that, for whatever reason, faking a plane crash (supposedly Flight 93) IN THE MIDDLE OF NOWHERE--and planting debris far from the "crash site"--was worth the suspicion it inevitably aroused, that they felt that having a plane fly OVER the Pentagon instead of INTO it (or perhaps it was a missile) was worth the suspicion it inevitably aroused, that having the plane fly on the North side of the Citgo while the clipped light poles were on the South side was worth whatever suspicion it inevitably aroused, and that blowing up WTC7 was worth whatever suspicion it inevitably aroused. So clearly the government in the CT Universe is more than willing do things that are likely to create suspicion, in order to achieve its obscure goals. So, what's a little bit more suspicion to silence the most vocal of the Truthers and instill fear of questioning into everyone else?
"Taking care of" the Truther ringleaders would have the dual benefit of eliminating the pesky videos and books AND make other people afraid to ask questions if they believed they could be killed for doing so. You can tell from the habit of Truther forum moderators of banning everyone who disagrees with them that most Truthers are NOT exceptionally brave people, so if they knew they could be killed for voicing their views, they would probably shut up.
2) The government/NWO would not have to kill every Truther. It would only need to get rid of a handful of "ringleaders". If you've spent any more than a week debating Truthers, you should know by now that 98% of Truthers are just parrots, blindly repeating what the "Alpha Truthers" say. These ringleaders include figures such as Dylan Avery, John Doe, and Alex Jones. The majority of Truthers only believe in "the truth" because these people told them to, and not because they are thinking for themselves. Were the government to eliminate this handful of ringleaders, the entire Truth Movement would crumble.
3) "Taking care of" the Truthers wouldn't even necessitate suspicion, anyways. Certainly, if the Alpha Truthers were to "mysteriously disappear" NOW, it would arouse suspicion. But that's only because they've been preaching their message for years and years. But what if the government/NWO had taken care of these Truther ringleaders when they were just getting started, when they still had only a very small audience? Then, what little suspicion that would be generated would be limited to rather small groups of minor parrot-type Truthers, who would probably not even know that any other Truthers except for the one they had paid attention to had disappeared. The government/NWO in the CT Universe is supposeddly omnipotent and can listen to all the conversations going on all over the country, and has paid shills all over the Internet, so you can be pretty darn sure that if someone was asking too many questions, he would start being watched very, very closely. Thus, it would be easy to snuff out any conspiracy theories in their early stages, before they got to big to control.
4) Lastly, the government wouldn't even necessarily have to KILL the people who were causing it problems. In the CT Universe, the internet and even the real world are heavily populated by "shills" who do the government/NWO's bidding. Whatever method the government/NWO is using to control these people--brainwashing, mind control, or even just a really generous salary--could certainly be applied to the Alpha Truthers. All it would take is to get the Truther to come to some secret location, give him a little "chat", and then release him back into the wild. If the government can "control" people's minds and actions, why doesn't it just "control" the Truthers.
Thus, from Maddox's original argument, and from my 4 new arguments, it is my thesis that were the CT Universe reality, the "Alpha Truthers" would be either dead or brainwashed, and the remaining Truthers would either shut up out of fear or simply lose interest.
End of analysis.
Of course, the "why aren't Truthers dead" argument isn't conclusive PROOF that the conspiracy theory is wrong, but it is a pretty darn big ding against it.
One particularly vocal critic of the 9/11 Truther movement is Maddox, pirate hero and author of "The Best Page in the Universe". His original attack against them was this article:
http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=911_morons
The central claim was that, if the CT Universe was reality, then the Truthers would all be dead. His argument:
1. The man in the picture above is Dylan Avery. To be more precise, the fact that Dylan, his friends, and family are alive, is proof that "Loose Change" is ********. He, along with a couple of his friends, created a 9/11 conspiracy video claiming that the US government and the military caused 9/11. Take a closer look at the last part of that last sentence: he's claiming that the US government, for whatever ends, killed nearly 3,000 innocent Americans, and tens if not hundreds of thousands of more lives in the conflicts that ensued because of it.
2. Since Dylan's arguing that the government has no problem killing 3,000 innocent people, this raises the question: if his documentary is true, and we've established that the government has no ethical qualms about killing thousands of its own people, then why wouldn't the government kill Avery and his friends as well? What's a few more lives to them to ensure the success of this conspiracy?
Whatever reason it may be that the government supposedly orchestrated this conspiracy, it must have been worth it to them to cause so much suffering and loss of life. So if there's any truth to this, then you can bet your ass that the government wouldn't let a couple of pecker-neck chumps with a couple of Macs and too much time on their hands jeopardise their entire operation by letting this stupid video float around on the Internet. I can picture you morons emailing me now: "BUT MADOX, MAYBE DYLAN POSTED IT ON THE INTERNET BEFORE THE GOVERNMENT HAD A CHANCE TO REMOVE IT LOL." Yeah, too bad this rebuttal is inconsistent with the premise of Dylan's ****-festival of a movie: that the WTC was brought down "in a carefully planned and controlled demolition ... and it was pulled off with military precision." Now we're expected to believe that the same government that was able to commit the largest terrorist operation in history--with military precision no less--is suddenly too incompetent to sniff out and shut down a little website set up by some college losers within days, if not minutes of its creation? The US government has the capability to monitor every electronic communication made anywhere in the world, yet we're expected to believe that they wouldn't be able to nix this kid long before his video ever became popular?
I win. There is no conspiracy. Eat my ****, losers.
Truthers, of course, had a ready response: that if they were to be killed, it would be too "suspicious". If all those "questioning" 9/11 suddenly disappeared, it would only cause even more people to question. This rebuttal was unique in that it was one of the few CT arguments to be accepted by even the skeptic/debunker community--very few debunkers have ever brought up the "why aren't CTists dead" point since.
I create this thread to revisit that argument, and to ask: Should we really be so quick to dismiss it? Should we accept the CTists rebuttal, just like that?
I think there are several flaws with the "killing us would be too suspicious" rebuttal:
1) In the CT Universe, I think it is fair to say that the government/NWO has proven time and time again that it doesn't give a [rule8] about not appearing "suspicious". This is evidenced by the fact that they felt that, for whatever reason, faking a plane crash (supposedly Flight 93) IN THE MIDDLE OF NOWHERE--and planting debris far from the "crash site"--was worth the suspicion it inevitably aroused, that they felt that having a plane fly OVER the Pentagon instead of INTO it (or perhaps it was a missile) was worth the suspicion it inevitably aroused, that having the plane fly on the North side of the Citgo while the clipped light poles were on the South side was worth whatever suspicion it inevitably aroused, and that blowing up WTC7 was worth whatever suspicion it inevitably aroused. So clearly the government in the CT Universe is more than willing do things that are likely to create suspicion, in order to achieve its obscure goals. So, what's a little bit more suspicion to silence the most vocal of the Truthers and instill fear of questioning into everyone else?
"Taking care of" the Truther ringleaders would have the dual benefit of eliminating the pesky videos and books AND make other people afraid to ask questions if they believed they could be killed for doing so. You can tell from the habit of Truther forum moderators of banning everyone who disagrees with them that most Truthers are NOT exceptionally brave people, so if they knew they could be killed for voicing their views, they would probably shut up.
2) The government/NWO would not have to kill every Truther. It would only need to get rid of a handful of "ringleaders". If you've spent any more than a week debating Truthers, you should know by now that 98% of Truthers are just parrots, blindly repeating what the "Alpha Truthers" say. These ringleaders include figures such as Dylan Avery, John Doe, and Alex Jones. The majority of Truthers only believe in "the truth" because these people told them to, and not because they are thinking for themselves. Were the government to eliminate this handful of ringleaders, the entire Truth Movement would crumble.
3) "Taking care of" the Truthers wouldn't even necessitate suspicion, anyways. Certainly, if the Alpha Truthers were to "mysteriously disappear" NOW, it would arouse suspicion. But that's only because they've been preaching their message for years and years. But what if the government/NWO had taken care of these Truther ringleaders when they were just getting started, when they still had only a very small audience? Then, what little suspicion that would be generated would be limited to rather small groups of minor parrot-type Truthers, who would probably not even know that any other Truthers except for the one they had paid attention to had disappeared. The government/NWO in the CT Universe is supposeddly omnipotent and can listen to all the conversations going on all over the country, and has paid shills all over the Internet, so you can be pretty darn sure that if someone was asking too many questions, he would start being watched very, very closely. Thus, it would be easy to snuff out any conspiracy theories in their early stages, before they got to big to control.
4) Lastly, the government wouldn't even necessarily have to KILL the people who were causing it problems. In the CT Universe, the internet and even the real world are heavily populated by "shills" who do the government/NWO's bidding. Whatever method the government/NWO is using to control these people--brainwashing, mind control, or even just a really generous salary--could certainly be applied to the Alpha Truthers. All it would take is to get the Truther to come to some secret location, give him a little "chat", and then release him back into the wild. If the government can "control" people's minds and actions, why doesn't it just "control" the Truthers.
Thus, from Maddox's original argument, and from my 4 new arguments, it is my thesis that were the CT Universe reality, the "Alpha Truthers" would be either dead or brainwashed, and the remaining Truthers would either shut up out of fear or simply lose interest.
End of analysis.
Of course, the "why aren't Truthers dead" argument isn't conclusive PROOF that the conspiracy theory is wrong, but it is a pretty darn big ding against it.