Interesting Contrast

[espritch]

I just got online and glanced at the AOL news headlines. There was a link to a story about the removal off the Ten Commandments from the Alabama judicial building. The title was "Bible Believers Feel Forsaken. Is society abandoning God?". Immediately below this headline was a link titled "Mother faces stoning death" about a lady in Nigeria condemned to die under Islamic law for having sex out of wedlock.

An interesting contrast: one story about fundamentalists feeling despondent that they aren't being allowed to flout the separation of church and state, and another about a country where there is no separation of church and state. Kind of makes you wonder why, if these guys want to live in a theocracy so badly, they aren't rushing to buy plane tickets to Nigeria?

[UnrepentantSinner]

Ah, but the difference is they want to live in a theocracy where their deity is running things.. not someone elses.

[Tony]

The idea that they want to live in a theocracy is a strawman.

[UnrepentantSinner]

Yes, but not much of one.

The Religious Right wants you to live like their deity tells them to live and wants to pass or repeal legislation and ordinances as necessary to make you do so. That is a theocracy just a surely as if our President were selected by a priestly class.

[Tony]

Originally posted by UnrepentantSinner

The Religious Right wants you to live like their deity tells them to live and wants to pass or repeal legislation and ordinances as necessary to make you do so.

Duh!! Almost every group wants to impose its moral vision on society, and takes the appropriate actions to do so. Why single out the religious right?

[UnrepentantSinner]

Originally posted by Tony


Duh!! Almost every group wants to impose its moral vision on society, and takes the appropriate actions to do so. Why single out the religious right?

- A theocracy is a nation ruled by religious law or edict or a priestly class.
- The Religious Right advocates religious law and edicts determining our laws and how we should live our lives.
- The Religious Right advocates theocracy.

= Other groups with political agendas are not advocating the U.S. be ruled by religious law, edict or priests and therefore are not advocating theocracy.

The fact that groups wish to impart or impose via legislation their views on society has no relevency on if they're trying to impose or advocate theocracy if they are not religious groups.

So are we splitting hairs on using the term theocracy, or do you want to discuss the Religious Right in more general terms?

[Tony]

Originally posted by UnrepentantSinner


- A theocracy is a nation ruled by religious law or edict or a priestly class.
- The Religious Right advocates religious law and edicts determining our laws and how we should live our lives.
- The Religious Right advocates theocracy.


I disagree that the religious right advocates religious law. They may advocate law based on the morals derived from religion, but that isnt religious law.

So are we splitting hairs on using the term theocracy, or do you want to discuss the Religious Right in more general terms?

I think both.

[UnrepentantSinner]

Originally posted by Tony
I disagree that the religious right advocates religious law. They may advocate law based on the morals derived from religion, but that isnt religious law.

What I wrote:
The Religious Right advocates religious law and edicts determining our laws and how we should live our lives.

I think both.

Cool.

My biggest problem is that my social libertarian streak is most offended by the Religious Right. I want to be able to buy pornography, I want to buy beer at 7am on a Sunday, I don't want Science being thrown away in favor of Creationism, and I don't want my tax money going for evangelism. I have problems with the social left, the economic left and the economic right also, but living in Texas, my dad to day living is most likely to be effected by the social right.

[Martin]

[Off-topic]US, what on Earth (or off it) is that avatar?[/off-topic]

[UnrepentantSinner]

Originally posted by Martinm
[Off-topic]US, what on Earth (or off it) is that avatar?[/off-topic]

Heh! Just my lastest in a series of truly shocking and horrifying images.

It's Roseanne Barr

[Martin]

Ah. Continuation of the Hitler/Hovind theme. Gotcha.

[UnrepentantSinner]

Originally posted by Martinm
Ah. Continuation of the Hitler/Hovind theme. Gotcha.

AND Richard Simmons. Don't forget him, or I'll need to bring him back. ;)

[Martin]

Since I'm lucky enough never to have heard of Richard Simmons, it wouldn't have the slightest effect on me :p

[UnrepentantSinner]

This man...

Dark Alleyway...

Very short shorts and a tank top...

Your worst nightmare...

[Tony]

Originally posted by UnrepentantSinner


What I wrote:
The Religious Right advocates religious law and edicts determining our laws and how we should live our lives.


I see your point. But is it really fair to say they advocate theocracy when the laws they are advocating are in the context of a constitutional republic or democracy? I dont see too many on the religious right advocating for the bible to become absolute law in place of the constitution.

A theocracy is government based directly on the inspiration of religious doctrine.

Cool.

My biggest problem is that my social libertarian streak is most offended by the Religious Right. I want to be able to buy pornography, I want to buy beer at 7am on a Sunday, I don't want Science being thrown away in favor of Creationism, and I don't want my tax money going for evangelism. I have problems with the social left, the economic left and the economic right also, but living in Texas, my dad to day living is most likely to be effected by the social right.

I agree. But the “social right” has never hindered my libertarian lifestyle, although, I don’t obey laws with which I disagree. Perhaps you should do the same? ;)

I wish the liquor stores were open past 9pm though. :mad:

[UnrepentantSinner]

Originally posted by Tony
I see your point. But is it really fair to say they advocate theocracy when the laws they are advocating are in the context of a constitutional republic or democracy? I dont see too many on the religious right advocating for the bible to become absolute law in place of the constitution.

A theocracy is government based directly on the inspiration of religious doctrine.

Actually some are. If you've never heard them use the phrase "God's Law over Man's Law" I'd be surprised. It's been bandied about quite frequently during the Moore's Monument issue. And that's not even taking into consideration people like the Reconstructionists and stealth reconstructionists like D. James Kennedy.
http://www.coralridge.org/
Check out the links there for his "Center for Reclaiming America" and "Center for Christian Statesmanship." People like Kennedy want to see an officially (their interpretation of) Christian (ity) United States. They want the laws to reflect their vision of right and wrong. They want to run roughshod over religious freedom and diversity. They want a defacto theocracy, even if we don't have a priesthood ruling or appointing the ruler.

I agree. But the “social right” has never hindered my libertarian lifestyle, although, I don’t obey laws with which I disagree. Perhaps you should do the same? ;)

I wish the liquor stores were open past 9pm though. :mad:

Well, since I'm a believer in the rule of law, I obey them. If I don't like them, I try to have them changed. That's one of the beauties of living in a democratic replublic - we're neither lawless nor bound immobile by the law.

The social right also has an agenda far beyond getting Howard Stern off the radio or boycotting Disney. They have a much more intrusive and insideous agenda.

9pm is state wide? I thought they we're open until 10pm in Wichita Falls... perhaps I'm misrecollecting.

[Tony]

Originally posted by UnrepentantSinner


Actually some are. If you've never heard them use the phrase "God's Law over Man's Law" I'd be surprised. It's been bandied about quite frequently during the Moore's Monument issue. And that's not even taking into consideration people like the Reconstructionists and stealth reconstructionists like D. James Kennedy.
http://www.coralridge.org/
Check out the links there for his "Center for Reclaiming America" and "Center for Christian Statesmanship." People like Kennedy want to see an officially (their interpretation of) Christian (ity) United States. They want the laws to reflect their vision of right and wrong. They want to run roughshod over religious freedom and diversity. They want a defacto theocracy, even if we don't have a priesthood ruling or appointing the ruler.


I guess I stand corrected.

Well, since I'm a believer in the rule of law, I obey them.

Ive never bound myself by rules or laws. Different strokes for different folks I guess.

9pm is state wide? I thought they we're open until 10pm in Wichita Falls... perhaps I'm misrecollecting.

I dunno if its state wide.

[UnrepentantSinner]

Well, this revelation on your part, and the fact that you post so late prompts me to ask what shift you work? I work 7p to 7a. My relief usually gets me out of here at 6:30 and my commute is 20 minutes. That means I have to f*** off 10 minutes to wait for beer sales to start when I could have my sixer heading to the casa.

[Tony]

I recently graduated college and have yet to get a "real" job, but I have been working freelance since I graduated.

And since you know you wont be able to buy beer until 7, why dont you stock up at home?

[UnrepentantSinner]

Originally posted by Tony
And since you know you wont be able to buy beer until 7, why dont you stock up at home?

Trust me, after 7 years of doing so, I still feel a smidgen of discomfort walking up to the checkout counter with 3 cases. I just hate wasting that 10 minutes so it makes sense to stock up for a week or so than grab a pack every few days.

And how about giving the non-American members her a little break. Zep's a really cool guy. Take his jabs in the spirit they were intended - light hearted. He's not DC after all.

[Tony]

Originally posted by UnrepentantSinner


Trust me, after 7 years of doing so, I still feel a smidgen of discomfort walking up to the checkout counter with 3 cases. I just hate wasting that 10 minutes so it makes sense to stock up for a week or so than grab a pack every few days.


Do you drink to get drunk, or do you drink because you like the taste?

And how about giving the non-American members her a little break. Zep's a really cool guy. Take his jabs in the spirit they were intended - light hearted. He's not DC after all.

DC??

[c0rbin]

The idea that they want to live in a theocracy is a strawman.

The proponents of such monuments often claim that the US was founded on these principles and that the US is a Christian nation.

[UnrepentantSinner]

Originally posted by Tony
[B]Do you drink to get drunk, or do you drink because you like the taste?

I'm an alcoholic. What do you think?

And yes, DC is a rabid dog with those who even offer the slightest disagreement with him. I'm suggesting you reserve the same (as I try to do) for the real jerks on the forum, not a decent guy sassing you a bit.

[Tony]

Originally posted by UnrepentantSinner


I'm an alcoholic.


Really? :(

[UnrepentantSinner]

Originally posted by Tony
Really? :(

Hey man, some people put up a bulls*** facade for the Internet. I, while keeping some secrets, just don't see a need to do so. I say this with one ceveat... any late night posts by me (my at work time) are sober - judge them by content. Any posts in the morning after I've worked - judge them by B.A.C. ;)

[jj]

Originally posted by Tony
The idea that they want to live in a theocracy is a strawman.

George Bush the father: "Atheists? I have a problem with Atheists, they can be neither good americans nor patriots, this is one nation under god".

There you have it for at least one member of the Bush family, in cold hard text, expressed, formal support for the idea that we ARE a theocracy, none the less.

[jj]

Originally posted by UnrepentantSinner


AND Richard Simmons. Don't forget him, or I'll need to bring him back. ;)

Aaaiiieeeeeeee!
NO NO NO

[espritch]

The idea that they want to live in a theocracy is a strawman.

I wish that was true. But look at the facts: Judge Moore had a two ton monument installed in a public court room the middle of the night without asking anyone's permission. After the 11'th US Circuit Court and his own fellow Justices ruled that it should be removed, he defied their order and was eventually suspended for flouting the very laws he was pledged, as an officer of the court, to uphold. The reason he was willing put his legal career on the line for this piece of rock is that he (and other like minded people) believes that America should be a Christian nation with the Bible taking precedent over secular law and even the constitution. If that isn't theocracy, what is it?

It not a strawman, it's a fact. One that some of the more rightwing Christian fundamentalists freely admit to.