Why I despise the Truthers

[CHF]

If it's truly independent it will have to do. That's the beauty of it. If you're so confident in your side what's to be afraid of?

Oh I'm not. I'd have a new, impartial investigation tomorrow if I thought there was the slightest chance that it'd make a difference to you. But I suspect that if a new investigation is held and you don't like the outcome, you'll just cry "whitewash" and demand another...and another...and another.

Sorry, not what I want my taxdollars spent on.

That's why I'm here trying to nail down who you would trust - no bitching, no moaning - regardless of their verdict.

Thus far I've seen no names.

Seriously, if you just want a truther investigation to be accepted by everyone else as fact then just say so. We all know that's what you're thinking.

[Redtail]

If it's truly independent it will have to do. That's the beauty of it. If you're so confident in your side what's to be afraid of?
Besides wasting taxpayer money on a whole new investigation because a few people on the internet think that elements of 9/11 look funny? Nothing.

[nicepants]

If it's truly independent it will have to do. That's the beauty of it. If you're so confident in your side what's to be afraid of?

What would make it "truly independent"?

And who would conduct this investigation?

Would the 9/11 truth community be willing to foot the bill if it turns out that there was no conspiracy?

[PhantomWolf]

If the US Government pays, how can it be "truely independent" in the Truther's view? After all isn't one of their main complaints about NIST that they were government funded....

[CHF]

If the US Government pays, how can it be "truely independent" in the Truther's view? After all isn't one of their main complaints about NIST that they were government funded....

If I didn't know better I'd think they simply wanted a fall-back position in case the wrong verdict is reached yet again.

"Well that one was also funded by the government so we'll need another one."

[JimBenArm]

If it's truly independent it will have to do. That's the beauty of it. If you're so confident in your side what's to be afraid of?
Here's something you could do, all on your own. Doesn't require any government anything, and you can start today.
Take up a collection from all your truther buddies. Gather all your evidence. Get some investigators to do your investigation. All nice and independent from the government, and you can even tell them ahead of time what conclusion they reached, so you'll be happy!

[ZENSMACK89]

Besides wasting taxpayer money on a whole new investigation because a few people on the internet think that elements of 9/11 look funny? Nothing.
So the victims aren't worth it?

[ZENSMACK89]

Here's something you could do, all on your own. Doesn't require any government anything, and you can start today.
Take up a collection from all your truther buddies. Gather all your evidence. Get some investigators to do your investigation. All nice and independent from the government, and you can even tell them ahead of time what conclusion they reached, so you'll be happy!
That sounds like the Governments NIST report. Why would I want to do that?

[ZENSMACK89]

If I didn't know better I'd think they simply wanted a fall-back position in case the wrong verdict is reached yet again.

"Well that one was also funded by the government so we'll need another one."
Not funded AND done by the Government

[CHF]

Still not seeing any names, Zen.

What's the hold up?

[ZENSMACK89]

What would make it "truly independent"?

And who would conduct this investigation?

Would the 9/11 truth community be willing to foot the bill if it turns out that there was no conspiracy?
Who footed the bill when there was nothing to Whitewater or no WMD's? Aren't 3000 dead worth more then that? Hoe much did NIST cost for their "theory"?

[ZENSMACK89]

Still not seeing any names, Zen.

What's the hold up?
I answered that. Go back and read. So are they worth it?

[pomeroo]

So the victims aren't worth it?


The victims were killed by jihadists--well-trained, highly motivated jihadists who, contrary to your fantasies, not only exist, but intend to strike us again.

Your proposed investigation would necessarily exclude any real scientists, architects, structural engineers, demolition experts, avionics techs, forensic examiners, flight instructors, FBI, CIA, or military personnel. What do you suppose a gaggle of Marxist literary critics and theologians will be able to uncover? How will it stand the scrutiny of anyone competent?

[PhantomWolf]

Not funded AND done by the Government

NIST isn't the Government, Purdue University (http://www.purdue.edu/UNS/html4ever/020910.Sozen.Pentagon.html) isn't the Government. Oh wait, Truther excuse 93. They were both funded by the Governement so they don't count as Independent....

[pomeroo]

Who footed the bill when there was nothing to Whitewater or no WMD's? Aren't 3000 dead worth more then that? Hoe much did NIST cost for their "theory"?


Why do you imagine that the ONE THOUSAND researchers who combined to produce the NIST Report fail to understand basic science? If they really do know better, why hasn't anyone spilled the beans (trick question)?

[ZENSMACK89]

Does anyone have bio or resume on Blanchard? I want to see how it matches up to Hoffman or Jones on a scholarly level. I mean he's not another Brownie or Jim Meigs the publicist is he?

[CHF]

Sorry Zen, I missed your list of experts who you would trust to investigate 9/11.

Which post was it?

And yes, 3,000 dead are worth an investigation. As I said, I have no problem with a new one. I'm just trying to figure out who you trust to conduct it.

[ZENSMACK89]

Why do you imagine that the ONE THOUSAND researchers who combined to produce the NIST Report fail to understand basic science? If they really do know better, why hasn't anyone spilled the beans (trick question)?
Still one Government report. And just a theory not a fact.

[ZENSMACK89]

Sorry Zen, I missed your list of experts who you would trust to investigate 9/11.

Which post was it?
I didn't give a list maybe that's why you missed it. Are they worth it?

[pomeroo]

Does anyone have bio or resume on Blanchard? I want to see how it matches up to Hoffman or Jones on a scholarly level. I mean he's not another Brownie or Jim Meigs the publicist is he?



Hoffman is not a scholar: he designs software.

Jones refuses to submit any of his work for peer-review. He refuses to debate. He has written about Jesus's visits to North America.

[ZENSMACK89]

Who's got that Blanchard resume? chop chop Make sure you include his education and training.

[pomeroo]

Still one Government report. And just a theory not a fact.


You have barked like a dog. I asked a specific question. Try again.

[TheRedWorm]

Still one Government report. And just a theory not a fact.


No offense intended, but do you know what theory means, in a scientific sense?

[CHF]

I didn't give a list maybe that's why you missed it. Are they worth it?

That's a pretty poor side-tracking effort there, Zen.

Who would you trust to investigate 9/11? Whose verdict will you accept no matter what they say?

How hard can this possibly be?

[ZENSMACK89]

The victims were killed by jihadists--well-trained, highly motivated jihadists who, contrary to your fantasies, not only exist, but intend to strike us again.

Your proposed investigation would necessarily exclude any real scientists, architects, structural engineers, demolition experts, avionics techs, forensic examiners, flight instructors, FBI, CIA, or military personnel. What do you suppose a gaggle of Marxist literary critics and theologians will be able to uncover? How will it stand the scrutiny of anyone competent?
No it wouldn't. In fact I'd like to get some of these people on the record.

http://www.nswbc.org/Press%20Releases/NSWBC-911Comm.htm

National Security Whistleblowers Coalition

The following Veteran National Security experts were turned away, ignored, or censored by the 9/11 Commission, even though they had direct and relevant information related to the Commission’s investigation

John M. Cole, Former Veteran Intelligence Operations Specialist; FBI
John Vincent, Retired Special Agent, Counterterrorism; FBI
Robert Wright, Veteran Special Agent, Counterterrorism; FBI
Sibel Edmonds, Former Language Specialist; FBI
Behrooz Sarshar, Former Language Specialist; FBI
Mike German, Special Agent, Counterterrorism; FBI
Gilbert Graham, Retired Special Agent, Counterintelligence; FBI
Coleen Rowley, Retired Division Counsel; FBI
Lieutenant Colonel Anthony Shaffer, DIA
Dick Stoltz, Retired Special Agent; ATF
Bogdan Dzakovic, Former Red Team Leader; FAA
Linda Lewis, Retired Emergency Programs Specialist; USDA
Mark Burton, Senior Analyst; NSA

[ZENSMACK89]

That's a pretty poor side-tracking effort there, Zen.

Who would you trust to investigate 9/11? Whose verdict will you accept no matter what they say?

How hard can this possibly be?
An independent investigation. Are you following?

[JimBenArm]

That sounds like the Governments NIST report. Why would I want to do that?
Really? How is that like the NIST report? The government paid for that one. Yours would be completely independent. The government concluded they all fell down due to huge honkin' planes and uncontrolled fires. You obviously think it was some other ridiculous idea, so you can pay for your little fantasy. I'm just giving you the option to fulfill your dream, and have it come to the exact conclusion that you so desperately want, so you can have some kind of a real feeling of accomplishment. As fleeting and imaginary as it will be! Because, to be quite frank with you, there isn't any other way this "investigation" you keep whining about is ever going to happen. Whining on this forum sure isn't going to get it done, and no one anywhere else is giving you all the time of day.
Not that you'll listen to me, but hey, at least someone has told you the truth, however harsh!

[ZENSMACK89]

You have barked like a dog. I asked a specific question. Try again.
Are the victims worth it?

[PhantomWolf]

Well I'm sure that others will know more, but from Imposionworld.

Brent L. Blanchard currently serves as Operations Manager for Protec Documentation Services Inc., Rancocas Woods, New Jersey. The firm performs vibration consulting, structural survey and photographic work for contractors throughout the United States and abroad.

In addition, Mr. Blanchard is a senior writer for implosionworld.com, a website that publishes news and information related to the explosive demolition industry. His team's work is also regularly published in various periodicals such as The Journal of Explosives Engineering (ISEE-USA), Explosives Engineering (IEE-UK), Demolition Magazine, Demolition & Recycling International, Constructioneer and Construction News.

Over the past 24 years, Mr. Blanchard's photographic images depicting demolition projects have won numerous national and international awards, and collections of his team's work have been showcased in The Philadelphia Museum of Art and The Franklin Institute Science Museum, among other prestigious venues. He has also appeared on internationally broadcast television documentaries such as Demolition Day (CBS News), Demolition (NBC/Dateline), Blastmasters (The Learning Channel) and The Art & Science of Blasting (Discovery Channel) as an authority on the explosive demolition industry.

[CHF]

An independent investigation. Are you following?

Conducted by WHO?????

Do you not want to answer or do you honestly not understand what I'm typing?

[ZENSMACK89]

So what makes us assert Blanchard is an expert? Anyone?

[pomeroo]

No it wouldn't. In fact I'd like to get some of these people on the record.

http://www.nswbc.org/Press%20Releases/NSWBC-911Comm.htm

National Security Whistleblowers Coalition

The following Veteran National Security experts were turned away, ignored, or censored by the 9/11 Commission, even though they had direct and relevant information related to the Commission’s investigation

John M. Cole, Former Veteran Intelligence Operations Specialist; FBI
John Vincent, Retired Special Agent, Counterterrorism; FBI
Robert Wright, Veteran Special Agent, Counterterrorism; FBI
Sibel Edmonds, Former Language Specialist; FBI
Behrooz Sarshar, Former Language Specialist; FBI
Mike German, Special Agent, Counterterrorism; FBI
Gilbert Graham, Retired Special Agent, Counterintelligence; FBI
Coleen Rowley, Retired Division Counsel; FBI
Lieutenant Colonel Anthony Shaffer, DIA
Dick Stoltz, Retired Special Agent; ATF
Bogdan Dzakovic, Former Red Team Leader; FAA
Linda Lewis, Retired Emergency Programs Specialist; USDA
Mark Burton, Senior Analyst; NSA


And tell us who, of the names on this list, takes the conspiracy nonsense seriously. Not Sibel Edmonds, to name just one person whose name is tossed around carelessly by conspiracy liars.

[ZENSMACK89]

Well I'm sure that others will know more, but from Imposionworld.
He's a writer, photographer, and an editor? Does he hang with Meigs your other expert? Maybe they went to school together huh?

[CHF]

So what makes us assert Blanchard is an expert? Anyone?

http://www.implosionworld.com/about.htm

More qualified to judge demolitions than a software engineer or Mr. Thermite?

Yeah I'd say so.

[ZENSMACK89]

Conducted by WHO?????

Do you not want to answer or do you honestly not understand what I'm typing?

I did answer. How about you? Are the victims worth it?

[ZENSMACK89]

Really? How is that like the NIST report? The government paid for that one. Yours would be completely independent. The government concluded they all fell down due to huge honkin' planes and uncontrolled fires. You obviously think it was some other ridiculous idea, so you can pay for your little fantasy. I'm just giving you the option to fulfill your dream, and have it come to the exact conclusion that you so desperately want, so you can have some kind of a real feeling of accomplishment. As fleeting and imaginary as it will be! Because, to be quite frank with you, there isn't any other way this "investigation" you keep whining about is ever going to happen. Whining on this forum sure isn't going to get it done, and no one anywhere else is giving you all the time of day.
Not that you'll listen to me, but hey, at least someone has told you the truth, however harsh!
So the victims aren't worth it?

[nicepants]

Who footed the bill when there was nothing to Whitewater or no WMD's? Aren't 3000 dead worth more then that? Hoe much did NIST cost for their "theory"?

Answer my questions, please

What would make it "truly independent"?

And who (names) would conduct this investigation?

[CHF]

No it wouldn't. In fact I'd like to get some of these people on the record.

http://www.nswbc.org/Press%20Releases/NSWBC-911Comm.htm

National Security Whistleblowers Coalition

The following Veteran National Security experts were turned away, ignored, or censored by the 9/11 Commission, even though they had direct and relevant information related to the Commission’s investigation

John M. Cole, Former Veteran Intelligence Operations Specialist; FBI
John Vincent, Retired Special Agent, Counterterrorism; FBI
Robert Wright, Veteran Special Agent, Counterterrorism; FBI
Sibel Edmonds, Former Language Specialist; FBI
Behrooz Sarshar, Former Language Specialist; FBI
Mike German, Special Agent, Counterterrorism; FBI
Gilbert Graham, Retired Special Agent, Counterintelligence; FBI
Coleen Rowley, Retired Division Counsel; FBI
Lieutenant Colonel Anthony Shaffer, DIA
Dick Stoltz, Retired Special Agent; ATF
Bogdan Dzakovic, Former Red Team Leader; FAA
Linda Lewis, Retired Emergency Programs Specialist; USDA
Mark Burton, Senior Analyst; NSA

All that just to avoid answering a simple question. :faint:

[Alferd_Packer]

Conducted by WHO?????

Do you not want to answer or do you honestly not understand what I'm typing?



Independent people. You know, like theology experts, army deserters, university professors curently in search of jobs, you know. Those kind of independent people.

[PhantomWolf]

you forgot this bit:

He has also appeared on internationally broadcast television documentaries ... as an authority on the explosive demolition industry.

What qualifications in demolisions does the entire Truther movement have?

[ZENSMACK89]

Still not seeing any names, Zen.

What's the hold up?
I answered you. Answer me. Are they worth it?

[ZENSMACK89]

http://www.implosionworld.com/about.htm

More qualified to judge demolitions than a software engineer or Mr. Thermite?

Yeah I'd say so.
How so?

[CHF]

Still waiting for the names of the experts you would trust to investigate 9/11, Zen.

You can stop trying to sidetrack. It isn't working.

[ZENSMACK89]

you forgot this bit:



What qualifications in demolisions does the entire Truther movement have?
Who says he's an authority? Who are you quoting?

[CHF]

So Zen told us who he would trust, even though he refuses to give names and he questions the demolition expertise of Blanchard from Protec/Implosion World.

This is beyond sad.

[Alferd_Packer]

I answered you. Answer me. Are they worth it?

well i missed your answer, and I don't feel like digging throught 20 pages to find it, so could you please re post it?

Thanks in advance.

[stateofgrace]

So the victims aren't worth it?

But they are worth so much more to you are they not? They are your shield that you and your fellow conspirators hide behind to spew your repulsive, repugnant theories onto the net. They are there just for you to use and pretend that you care for them; they are there just for you to make up all sorts of garbage and pretend you actually give a damn for them.

You do not, you could not care less, you use these people to promote your heinous and insipid theories about 911 onto the to net. They are not real people who had real loved ones who were murdered in the most hideous of ways. They are your pawns, tools for you and your repulsive movement to play with. a movement so devoid of facts , so lacking in substance it is dismissed by everybody as a joke, as laughing stock with nothing other than innuendoes, false claims and down right lies.

You use these people, you use there genuine lose to fuel your insane theories about NWO’s , US mass murder plots, as though you are in same way as important as them. You are not; you are an internet kook, spewing garbage onto forums, using genuine grief and pain to further it.

This is why I despise truthers; this is why I find you repugnant and repulsive. The blatant use of personnel suffering of others to promote you owns garbage is unforgivable. As is the use of this dreadful event to spew hideous and false DVD’s movies and completely unfounded accusations of mass murder against perfectly innocent people.

You do not care, you could not care less, if you did you would genuinely open your eyes to the real world, you would stop living in your make believe world and genuinely educate yourself.

But no, far better to indulge in the pain of others, pretend you are important and see something that everybody else missed, including the very people you pretend you care for.

[ZENSMACK89]

Who foot the bill on the Whitewater Investigation and the illegal WMD war?

Where did Blanchard go to school and for what?

Are the victims worth more then just a theory?

[JimBenArm]

So the victims aren't worth it?
Hey, I gave you the option of funding this, and doing whatever you want. So the victims aren't worth it? If they are, get busy. If not, shut up. Your choice. So, are you going to continue to whine, or are you actually going to do something? Because I never see you all actually do anything!

[ZENSMACK89]

Hey, I gave you the option of funding this, and doing whatever you want. So the victims aren't worth it? If they are, get busy. If not, shut up. Your choice. So, are you going to continue to whine, or are you actually going to do something? Because I never see you all actually do anything!
I not asking you anymore. You've already shown you don't think the victims are worth as much as the Whiter investigation.

Anyone else? For the record that is.

cluck cluck

[CHF]

I think we're done with this one, lads.

Zen won't say who he'd trust because being honest would mean: "Steven Jones, Kevin Ryan and DR Griffin."

Lest anyone doubt why truthers desperately try to change the topic when that question comes up.

[ZENSMACK89]

But they are worth so much more to you are they not? They are your shield that you and your fellow conspirators hide behind to spew your repulsive, repugnant theories onto the net. They are there just for you to use and pretend that you care for them; they are there just for you to make up all sorts of garbage and pretend you actually give a damn for them.

You do not, you could not care less, you use these people to promote your heinous and insipid theories about 911 onto the to net. They are not real people who had real loved ones who were murdered in the most hideous of ways. They are your pawns, tools for you and your repulsive movement to play with. a movement so devoid of facts , so lacking in substance it is dismissed by everybody as a joke, as laughing stock with nothing other than innuendoes, false claims and down right lies.

You use these people, you use there genuine lose to fuel your insane theories about NWO’s , US mass murder plots, as though you are in same way as important as them. You are not; you are an internet kook, spewing garbage onto forums, using genuine grief and pain to further it.

This is why I despise truthers; this is why I find you repugnant and repulsive. The blatant use of personnel suffering of others to promote you owns garbage is unforgivable. As is the use of this dreadful event to spew hideous and false DVD’s movies and completely unfounded accusations of mass murder against perfectly innocent people.

You do not care, you could not care less, if you did you would genuinely open your eyes to the real world, you would stop living in your make believe world and genuinely educate yourself.

But no, far better to indulge in the pain of others, pretend you are important and see something that everybody else missed, including the very people you pretend you care for.
Wow You should have wrote this to the admimistration about Pat Tillman.

So are the victims worth more then Whitewater?

[ZENSMACK89]

I think we're done with this one, lads.

Zen won't say who he'd trust because being honest would mean: "Steven Jones, Kevin Ryan and DR Griffin."

Lest anyone doubt why truthers desperately try to change the topic when that question comes up.
cluck cluck

[ZENSMACK89]

So how is everyone so sure Blanchard is an expert? Does he have a degree in implosion? Explosion? Firecrackers?

[pomeroo]

Wow You should have wrote this to the admimistration about Pat Tillman.

So are the victims worth more then Whitewater?



That Tillman had been killed by friendly fire was uncovered by an investigation conducted by the military. Your point?


What evidence has the fantasy movement produced in almost six years that refutes ANY of the conclusions reached by serious researchers?

[Alferd_Packer]

cluck cluck


Can you repost the part about the independent investigation, please?

Thanks.

[JimBenArm]

I not asking you anymore. You've already shown you don't think the victims are worth as much as the Whiter investigation.

Anyone else? For the record that is.

cluck cluck
Hey, sorry you don't care as much as you claim you do. It's obvious it's just a game to you, otherwise you might actually have to take some real action. What, do you need our permission? Our approval? What? We know what happened, you're the only one who can't come to grips with it. You want an investigation, go pay for it. I've told you how you can, but obviously it's too hard for you to do, because then you'd be responsible for it, and you couldn't complain about the results like a government-funded one. You need that escape hatch, so if it comes to the exact same conclusion, you can whine about how it wasn't truely independent, because the government had a hand in it.
Since you can't be bothered to actually try to do anything else than complain, it's obvious to me that you give a rat's patootie about the victims, and you're just using this to garner attention for yourself. We're done here, Mr. Fraud!

[stateofgrace]

Wow You should have wrote this to the admimistration about Pat Tillman.

So are the victims worth more then Whitewater?

Save your self righteous garbage, 911 have been investigated by countries outside the US, they ALL agree Al Qaeda carried out this attack, are they all wrong? Or are you so narrow minded you think there is nothing beyond the US?

INTERPOL.

[ZENSMACK89]

INTERPOL? What evidence did they have access to? Did we send any steel to them? Whose testimony did they get under oath?

[ZENSMACK89]

Did you write something like this to the president when he spent your money looking for WMD's? Maybe he can pay you back in oil. Ya think?

[ZENSMACK89]

http://www.physics911.net/stevenjones
A truly independent, international panel would consider all viable hypotheses, including the pre-positioned-explosives theory, guided not by politicized notions and constraints, but rather by observations and calculations, to reach a scientific conclusion. Questioning (preferably under oath) of officials who approved the rapid removal and destruction of the WTC steel beams and columns before they could be properly analyzed — and others as outlined above — should proceed in the United States.
As far as a criminal an investigation…

I would imagine there would first need to be a new administration then a real attorney general and a Department of Justice that does its job. There would need to be congressional hearings where no one is out of reach or above questioning even if they have already left their position or office. Maybe even a new commission. Ultimately seeing what 9-11 led to there should be War Crime trials led by an international body. The US also needs to take a hard look at War profiteering.

I can't name names any more then I can tell you who's going to play in the next superbowl.

[ZENSMACK89]

Who foot the bill on the Whitewater Investigation and the illegal WMD war?

Where did Blanchard go to school and for what?

Are the victims worth more then just a theory?
Here I'll answer for all of you.

cricket cricket cluck cluck

[stateofgrace]

INTERPOL? What evidence did they have access to? Did we send any steel to them? Whose testimony did they get under oath?

More garbage, do you ever get tried of typing garbage?

Spain, Germany, ever heard of them? They are part of Interpol, Try goggling it, try Italy also.

[ZENSMACK89]

More garbage, do you ever get tried of typing garbage?

Spain, Germany, ever heard of them? They are part of Interpol, Try goggling it, try Italy also.
How's that an answer?

[Alferd_Packer]

zen, can you please repost the list of people that you think are qualified to sit on a new "independent" investigation.


cluck cluck cluck

[ZENSMACK89]

zen, can you please repost the list of people that you think are qualified to sit on a new "independent" investigation.


cluck cluck cluck
As soon as you give me the names of the players in the next super bowl.

Is this really all you have to say?

Are they worth it?

[Alferd_Packer]

Ode to the Twoothers (http://www.cs.umbc.edu/~evans/hollow.html)

[CHF]

I can't name names any more then I can tell you who's going to play in the next superbowl.

So that's it then? Call for a new international investigation but stop short of names?

I'm afraid I don't see this investigation going anywhere, Zen. Good luck with it though.

[JimBenArm]

So that's it then? Call for a new international investigation but stop short of names?

I'm afraid I don't see this investigation going anywhere, Zen. Good luck with it though.
It's okay. He's not serious.

[ZENSMACK89]

So that's it then? Call for a new international investigation but stop short of names?

I'm afraid I don't see this investigation going anywhere, Zen. Good luck with it though.
That's no surprise. You don't see much do you?

[stateofgrace]

How's that an answer?

I don't need to answer you sunbeam, nobody needs to answer your garbage. The world has already answered; they dismiss you as a kook, a fraud, a lair, a promoter of factless garbage.

Get into touch with Interpol, tell them they wrong, get in touch with Spain tell them they are wrong, get in touch with Germany, in fact get in touch with the entire planet that dismiss you as an insignificant nobody who spews, laughable therories not internet forums and tell them they are wrong.

The truth is you are so afraid of reality you prefer to hide away from it, play into the hands of the real hatred that is driving Islamic terrorist organisations and pretend they are totally incapable of doing this. You are a mockery, a laughing stock, the Inspector Clouseau of the investigation team.

[ZENSMACK89]

I don't need to answer you sunbeam, nobody needs to answer your garbage. The world has already answered; they dismiss you as a kook, a fraud, a lair, a promoter of factless garbage.

Get into touch with Interpol, tell them they wrong, get in touch with Spain tell them they are wrong, get in touch with Germany, in fact get in touch with the entire planet that dismiss you as an insignificant nobody who spews, laughable therories not internet forums and tell them they are wrong.

The truth is you are so afraid of reality you prefer to hide away from it, play into the hands of the real hatred that is driving Islamic terrorist organisations and pretend they are totally incapable of doing this. You are a mockery, a laughing stock, the Inspector Clouseau of the investigation team.
How about giving me some reality for this shill...

Who foot the bill on the Whitewater Investigation and the illegal WMD war?

Where did Blanchard go to school and for what?

Are the victims worth more then just a theory?

[ZENSMACK89]

yawn

[johnny karate]

As soon as you give me the names of the players in the next super bowl.


While being completely accurate is impossible at this point, I can supply you with a list from which those names will be drawn, and expect you will respond in kind. The list is as follows:

Baltimore Ravens
Buffalo Bills
Cincinnati Bengals
Cleveland Browns
Denver Broncos
Houston Texans
Indianapolis Colts
Jacksonville Jaguars
Kansas City Chiefs
Miami Dolphins
New England Patriots
New York Jets
Oakland Raiders
Pittsburgh Steelers
San Diego Chargers
Tennessee Titans
Arizona Cardinals
Atlanta Falcons
Carolina Panthers
Chicago Bears
Dallas Cowboys
Detroit Lions
Green Bay Packers
Minnesota Vikings
New Orleans Saints
New York Giants
Philadelphia Eagles
San Francisco 49ers
Seattle Seahawks
St. Louis Rams
Tampa Bay Buccaneers
Washington Redskins

Your turn.

[stateofgrace]

How about giving me some reality for this shill...

Who foot the bill on the Whitewater Investigation and the illegal WMD war?

Where did Blanchard go to school and for what?

Are the victims worth more then just a theory?
Back to square one, hiding behind the victims again, save it, you are not worth it, get into touch with Interpol, Spain, Germany and the rest of the planet that had citizens murdered by Islamic terrorists on 911.

I'm out of here; you are simply not worth the effort.

It is rare a call anybody a terrorist sympathiser, but you are, you excuse the murderers who committed this dreadful act and use the victims to does so.

You disgust me.

[Alferd_Packer]

yawn


Time for bed, zenny boy.

go brush your teeth and put your jammies on.

Let's go, quick like a bunny.

[pomeroo]

How about giving me some reality for this shill...

Who foot the bill on the Whitewater Investigation and the illegal WMD war?


The taxpayers, who else? Your point?

There was plenty to Whitewater, but the Clintons cannot be nailed. I strongly favor letting them do anything they want: they are above the law.

There was, as you know, absolutely nothing illegal about the Iraq War.



Where did Blanchard go to school and for what?


Are you planning to tell us what he got wrong in his paper?

I didn't think so.



Are the victims worth more then just a theory?


You're babbling again. The victims mean nothing at all to you. NIST produced ten thousand pages of analysis. You've read none of it and can't refute any of the conclusions the agency reached.

If a second investigation is conducted by real scientists and engineers, it will reject the idiotic moonshine promoted by conspiracy liars.


Then, you'll demand a third--and a fourth.

You won't stop making infantile demands until you get a kangaroo court presided over by crackpots who agree with your baseless prejudices.

[ZENSMACK89]

While being completely accurate is impossible at this point, I can supply you with a list from which those names will be drawn, and expect you will respond in kind. The list is as follows:

Baltimore Ravens
Buffalo Bills
Cincinnati Bengals
Cleveland Browns
Denver Broncos
Houston Texans
Indianapolis Colts
Jacksonville Jaguars
Kansas City Chiefs
Miami Dolphins
New England Patriots
New York Jets
Oakland Raiders
Pittsburgh Steelers
San Diego Chargers
Tennessee Titans
Arizona Cardinals
Atlanta Falcons
Carolina Panthers
Chicago Bears
Dallas Cowboys
Detroit Lions
Green Bay Packers
Minnesota Vikings
New Orleans Saints
New York Giants
Philadelphia Eagles
San Francisco 49ers
Seattle Seahawks
St. Louis Rams
Tampa Bay Buccaneers
Washington Redskins

Your turn.
oh ok

The planet Earth

Why didn't you just say what you wanted? geez

[ZENSMACK89]

The taxpayers, who else? Your point?

There was plenty to Whitewater, but the Clintons cannot be nailed. I strongly favor letting them do anything they want: they are above the law.

There was, as you know, absolutely nothing illegal about the Iraq War.





Are you planning to tell us what he got wrong in his paper?

I didn't think so.





You're babbling again. The victims mean nothing at all to you. NIST produced ten thousand pages of analysis. You've read none of it and can't refute any of the conclusions the agency reached.

If a second investigation is conducted by real scientists and engineers, it will reject the idiotic moonshine promoted by conspiracy liars.


Then, you'll demand a third--and a fourth.

You won't stop making infantile demands until you get a kangaroo court presided over by crackpots who agree with your baseless prejudices.
Tax Payers! YES! But a stained dress was worth it right?

Where did Blanchard go to school and for what?

Are they worth it? A stained dress that is?

[ZENSMACK89]

Back to square one, hiding behind the victims again, save it, you are not worth it, get into touch with Interpol, Spain, Germany and the rest of the planet that had citizens murdered by Islamic terrorists on 911.

I'm out of here; you are simply not worth the effort.

It is rare a call anybody a terrorist sympathiser, but you are, you excuse the murderers who committed this dreadful act and use the victims to does so.

You disgust me.
Let's add that question to the other three. What evidence did Interpol have access to and who did they get under oath? Do they investigate crimes against peace? Maybe you should get in touch and point them towards Pennsylvania Avenue. Do they have a tip-line?

[JimBenArm]

Let's add that question to the other three. What evidence did Interpol have access to and who did they get under oath? Do they investigate crimes against peace? Maybe you should get in touch and point them towards Pennsylvania Avenue. Do they have a tip-line?
Why don't you do it? Oh, that's right, you don't actually ever DO anything!

[johnny karate]

oh ok

The planet Earth

Why didn't you just say what you wanted? geez


Well, what I wanted was for you to respond in kind as you said you would.

I provided you with a specific list of 32 possible candidates for next year's Super Bowl.

Now let's see you fullfill your end of the bargain and provide me with a specific list of 32 possible candidates for your independent investigation.

[ZENSMACK89]

Time for bed, zenny boy.

go brush your teeth and put your jammies on.

Let's go, quick like a bunny.
And back to the coop for you.

cluck cluck

[ZENSMACK89]

Well, what I wanted was for you to respond in kind as you said you would.

I provided you with a specific list of 32 possible candidates for next year's Super Bowl.

Now let's see you fullfill your end of the bargain and provide me with a specific list of 32 possible candidates for your independent investigation.
My list was one. I can't get it any lower that. Curses. Foiled again! lol

[pomeroo]

Tax Payers! YES! But a stained dress was worth it right?


No, I oppose these witch hunts. They waste time and money.





Where did Blanchard go to school and for what?


Everyone gets the idea that Brent Blanchard works in the demolition industry. Now, what did he get wrong in his paper?

How long can you tap dance?




Are they worth it? A stained dress that is?


Clinton perjured himself and suborned perjury from several members of the Executive branch over a non-impeachable offense. Do you know why he jeopardized his presidency so unnecessarily?

How does any of this relate to your imaginary, mathematically impossible conspiracy?

[ZENSMACK89]

No, I oppose these witch hunts. They waste time and money.

I oppose them also. I just don’t see how a real investigation into the deaths of 3000 people equates a witch hunt. Care to explain?

Everyone gets the idea that Brent Blanchard works in the demolition industry. Now, what did he get wrong in his paper?

I don’t get it explain it to be. Unless you are resigning to the ugly truth I had point that Blanchard might be a fraud of Brownie proportions. What industry did Meigs work in before Pop Mechanics? Wasn’t it the entertainment? Didn’t it have something to do with publicity? Not that far of a leap from publicity to propaganda huh? Hmmmm I see a pattern here. How about you?

How long can you tap dance?

I don’t know never tried. Are they worth it?

Clinton perjured himself and suborned perjury from several members of the Executive branch over a non-impeachable offense. Do you know why he jeopardized his presidency so unnecessarily?

I thought you oppose witch hunts? Your not flip flopping are you? I’m so disappointed.

How does any of this relate to your imaginary, mathematically impossible conspiracy?

Because a new independent investigation might clear up the impossible official version.

[nicepants]

Because a new independent investigation might clear up the impossible official version.

Then what are you waiting for? This investigation will never get off the ground if you won't tell us who you want doing the investigating?

[Redtail]

So the victims aren't worth it?

No. Not with taxpayer money.

[pomeroo]

I oppose them also. I just don’t see how a real investigation into the deaths of 3000 people equates a witch hunt. Care to explain?



Why bother? You're not listening.

The first investigation found nothing to support your baseless fantasies. Individual investigations by independent researchers have found nothing to back up the fabrications and outright falsehoods peddled by cranks and charlatans.

Once we've excluded the real scientists and engineers (and avionics techs, seismologists, flight instructors, forensic examiners, demolition experts, etc.), who should conduct your investigation?




I don’t get it explain it to be. Unless you are resigning to the ugly truth I had point that Blanchard might be a fraud of Brownie proportions. What industry did Meigs work in before Pop Mechanics? Wasn’t it the entertainment? Didn’t it have something to do with publicity? Not that far of a leap from publicity to propaganda huh? Hmmmm I see a pattern here. How about you?


I see a silly kid tap dancing furiously because he has absolutely nothing to support his discredited fantasies.

Brent Blanchard works in the demolition industry. There is nothing fraudulent about him. You reflexively slander him because you are helpless to confront the paper in which he destroys many of the falsehoods you swallow uncritically.

Who cares what Meigs did before he worked for Popular Mechanics? If you took the trouble to read the book (and you haven't), you'd discover an imposing list of authorities in various relevant fields who were consulted by the editors and writers. Perhaps they're all "frauds" and "liars"?






I don’t know never tried. Are they worth it?



You tap dance constantly. You do nothing else.

You don't give a damn about the victims. It is offensive that you pretend otherwise. Your idiotic fantasies mock their murders by the jihadists who plan to commit more murders. Then you can blame another imaginary conspiracy.




I thought you oppose witch hunts? Your not flip flopping are you? I’m so disappointed.


No, I'm not. Nobody thinks I am. You're babbling incoherently again.



Because a new independent investigation might clear up the impossible official version.


You have failed to point out any flaws in the conclusions reached by thousands of researchers. There is no such animal as the "official" version--stop lying.

Who should conduct your witch hunt? I understand how you hate this question, but it will always be in your face.

[johnny karate]

My list was one. I can't get it any lower that. Curses. Foiled again! lol


Oh okay, you're dodging the question. Got it.

You have proven yourself to be either unwilling or incapable of having a mature and honest discussion, so I'm through with you.

Good luck with your Revolution. Let us know how it turns out.

[Regnad Kcin]

Hey, I gave you the option of funding this, and doing whatever you want. So the victims aren't worth it? If they are, get busy. If not, shut up. Your choice. So, are you going to continue to whine, or are you actually going to do something? Because I never see you all actually do anything!Seems the essence of the truth-keteers is simply a heartfelt desire to sow the seeds of unrest. Flood the 'net with posts, offering up over and over again discredited disinformation, videos, and pseudo-science, all while ignoring any and every attempt made by others to correct the information (see: Christoperha, Malcolm Kirkman, et al).

I imagine they have zero interest in pursuing any direct action (despite their bleatings to the contrary), but rather would love to start, in effect, a rumor with just enough feasibility that it takes hold in the general consciousness. Then, they'll hope that others will do something and they can sit back and watch the show.

It is in no way, shape, or form about finding truth. It is only about stirring up trouble. Anarchists in diapers.

[leftysergeant]

http://www.physics911.net/stevenjones
A truly independent, international panel would consider all viable hypotheses, including the pre-positioned-explosives theory

In other words, if they do not investigate the whackadoodle stuff that somebody pulled out of his butt, they are committing fraud and just feeding us the same old compost.

Questioning (preferably under oath) of officials who approved the rapid removal and destruction of the WTC steel beams and columns before they could be properly analyzed — and others as outlined above — should proceed in the United States.
As far as a criminal an investigation…

Now you want them to explore facts not in evidence.

Were you not an eightteen-year-old conspiracy geek, I would think that you might have been on that snivelling diletante Ryan's legal team.

[leftysergeant]

While being completely accurate is impossible at this point, I can supply you with a list from which those names will be drawn, and expect you will respond in kind. The list is as follows:

Seattle Seahawks


Your turn.

Now I am begining to suspect that you have been smoking some of whatever the twoofers are into.

[tsig]

And back to the coop for you.

cluck cluck

Homing pigions have more sense.

[OldSchool]

This post is great. It is great too see people come together too express there anger. While the other forums I visit spend time discussing issues i'm glad too see the other side isn't doing anything constructive besides working out anger issues.


The United States Governments will continue to do as they please including breaking laws, conducting cover-ups too laws broken, and passing of bills, and excutive orders to slowly erode our freedoms. Mainly because theres enough of the population out there which won't even begin too question and always assumes the best of our politicians. Our government couldn't possibly do anything corrupt according too what I read on this website. Our country is bar far the most advanced on earth with the best and the brightest available too our politicians whenever they're needed. Yet once again no conspiracy could possibly excist with all this brain power at there disposal. As i'm now officially part of the National Archive too impeach George Bush and Dick Cheney I have a clear concience. Whether or not the horrific details of this adminstation ever become fully exposed is yet too be seen, however i'm not holding my breath. Hopefully for the sake of our Countries future Impeachment laws are upheld and Bush, Cheney, and Gonzo all recieve what by law is required.

In conclusion, My aunt who is a Psychologist would be very proud of what you guys have accomplished here on your own. Normally costs quite a bit for a group discussion as a form too release anger. As she's an Impeachment supporter and supporter of 911 full disclusre she wouldn't aggree with you, however she would listen.

love,

Oldschool

[tsig]

This post is great. It is great too see people come together too express there anger. While the other forums I visit spend time discussing issues i'm glad too see the other side isn't doing anything constructive besides working out anger issues.


The United States Governments will continue to do as they please including breaking laws, conducting cover-ups too laws broken, and passing of bills, and excutive orders to slowly erode our freedoms. Mainly because theres enough of the population out there which won't even begin too question and always assumes the best of our politicians. Our government couldn't possibly do anything corrupt according too what I read on this website. Our country is bar far the most advanced on earth with the best and the brightest available too our politicians whenever they're needed. Yet once again no conspiracy could possibly excist with all this brain power at there disposal. As i'm now officially part of the National Archive too impeach George Bush and Dick Cheney I have a clear concience. Whether or not the horrific details of this adminstation ever become fully exposed is yet too be seen, however i'm not holding my breath. Hopefully for the sake of our Countries future Impeachment laws are upheld and Bush, Cheney, and Gonzo all recieve what by law is required.

In conclusion, My aunt who is a Psychologist would be very proud of what you guys have accomplished here on your own. Normally costs quite a bit for a group discussion as a form too release anger. As she's an Impeachment supporter and supporter of 911 full disclusre she wouldn't aggree with you, however she would listen.

love,

Oldschool


Bush should be impeached but thats different thread.

[mjd1982]

She states:

"Because we were told building 7 was about to come down or being brought down"

Then later says she was told by the fire department "we're going to have to bring it down"

These aren't completely congruent.

Additionally, who from the NYFD told her that they were "bringing it down"?
You are a complete clown, and like the rest fo your friends here, you have zero regard for those who have lost their lives, and will continue to, in the WOT.

She states that they were told th building was gonna be brought down or taken down. When asked to be more specific, she is ultra indictive, saying ~ they definitely said they were gonna bring it down.

As I said, I have accepted your, OT testimony, now I want to know why none of you accept mine. And I am asking this for the 11th time now.

Hell, this is so ridiculous, it deserves its own thread.

[Belz...]

What does?

Honestly. What DOESN'T support that conclusion ? I don't need to link to those reports do I ?

And still more nothing from you. yawn

Do you deny that your assertions have no foundation ? Otherwise, please answer my first question. What DOESN'T support that conclusion ?

I already proved this bare assertion wrong.

Thermite is an incendiary, Zen.

Even more nothing from you.

Did you even READ what I said ? Do you understand what it means ? Why do truthers persist in ignoring stuff they don't like ?

Why don’t you show me how every single account of an explosion can be accounted for? That’ll never happen.

Argument from incredulity. The fact that you think it can't happen has no effect on reality. I asked you a simple question, and you respond with ANOTHER question and an argument from incredulity.

Here it is again: Why "certainly not all of it" ? Why are you so certain that not ALL of those explosions are due to that ?

But as unfortunate, tragic or despicable as I might think this is, it still doesn't mean 9/11 was an inside job.
How does it mean it wasn’t?

You need to read my sentence again, Zen.

[Belz...]

I'm not saying this is what happened but THINK. If the Gov or rogue elements of the Gov blew the WTC like many CT’s believe don't you think they might have used I don't know... some explosive experts?

Yes, in fact to pull such a stunt would require thousands of people involved. Think about it.

If they started at the top and then blew the rest after the building already started to fall you would hardly hear anything above the sound of a collapsing skyscraper.

Two things:

1) That's not how you demolish a building
2) You'd still hear the explosions, and the seismographs would read the blasts.

A truly independent, international panel would consider all viable hypotheses, including the pre-positioned-explosives theory

How do you know which hypotheses are viable ?

The same people who paid for the results of the Clinton investigation and this illegal Quagmire we're in. If we can afford that bull we can pay for a real investigation into 3,000 dead Americans. Are they not worth it?

So... you'd trust the government to fund this investigation ?

If it's truly independent it will have to do.

It obviously won't be independent, since you've mentioned government funding.

Still one Government report. And just a theory not a fact.

Zen, how do you determine what's a fact ? Because it seems from this chair that for you it's "what I agree with". You find the "official" explanation fishy, but that seems to be the only reason why you don't believe it.

So far, you said you'd want the government to pay for it, but have no part in it. It'd like to know who you'd find to make this investigation happen that ISN'T employed by the government. The funding problem makes the situation worse.

[Belz...]

The United States Governments will continue to do as they please including breaking laws, conducting cover-ups too laws broken, and passing of bills, and excutive orders to slowly erode our freedoms.

In what way are they different from other government and human being ?

Mainly because theres enough of the population out there which won't even begin too question and always assumes the best of our politicians.

Oh, don't worry. We question plenty of what they do.

Our government couldn't possibly do anything corrupt according too what I read on this website.

Here's that burning straw, again. Please explain why you think :

P) 9/11 was NOT an inside job

means

Q) The government can do no evil.

[Belz...]

You are a complete clown, and like the rest fo your friends here, you have zero regard for those who have lost their lives, and will continue to, in the WOT.

Appeal to emotion, now ? Is that what you do when you're out of "arguments" ?

She states that they were told th building was gonna be brought down or taken down.

Yes, that is what she stated.

When asked to be more specific, she is ultra indictive, saying ~ they definitely said they were gonna bring it down.

Uh-huh. People are usually uncritical of their own memories.

As I said, I have accepted your, OT testimony, now I want to know why none of you accept mine.

Don't you think it's difficult to accept eyewitness testmomy that contradicts reality when we know eyewitness accounts are usually far from reliable in those chaotic situations ?

[ZENSMACK89]

No. Not with taxpayer money.
Finally someone gives a straight answer. Was that so hard?

Now tell me how taxpayer money is better used. What's more important then 3,000 dead on 9-11? Giving another no bid contract to KBR? How much taxpayer money is spent on the Governments "misinformation team" to squash rumors all of you claim are nonsense that hardly anyone believes anyway? Is that worth more then the 3000 dead?

[ZENSMACK89]

Oh okay, you're dodging the question. Got it.

You have proven yourself to be either unwilling or incapable of having a mature and honest discussion, so I'm through with you.

Good luck with your Revolution. Let us know how it turns out.
Thank you. Just out of curiosity what are the names of the people who will be in attendance at the next Super bowl? Come on quick. I'm waiting.

[nicepants]

You are a complete clown, and like the rest fo your friends here, you have zero regard for those who have lost their lives, and will continue to, in the WOT.

Unlike you, I want those responsible for these hanus acts punished, but I will not support the punishment of those who are NOT responsible, just to satisfy your childish conspiracy theory.

She states that they were told th building was gonna be brought down or taken down. When asked to be more specific, she is ultra indictive, saying ~ they definitely said they were gonna bring it down.

So the firefighters brought it down now?
Stop twisting her words, the quote was "it's going to be brought down" not "we're gonna bring it down".

As I said, I have accepted your, OT testimony, now I want to know why none of you accept mine. And I am asking this for the 11th time now.

And I'm answering for the 3rd time now

A firefighter saying "it looked like the building was going to come down" is first-hand evidence.

We accept your quote for what it is...a claim by Indria that she was TOLD it was going to be brought down. That's all it is. We have someone saying that someone else said something. That's hearsay, and not on equal footing with a direct quote from the source. I'm not saying she's right, I'm not saying she's wrong.

Hell, this is so ridiculous, it deserves its own thread.

Feel free to start one.

[ZENSMACK89]

Seems the essence of the truth-keteers is simply a heartfelt desire to sow the seeds of unrest. Flood the 'net with posts, offering up over and over again discredited disinformation, videos, and pseudo-science, all while ignoring any and every attempt made by others to correct the information (see: Christoperha, Malcolm Kirkman, et al).

I imagine they have zero interest in pursuing any direct action (despite their bleatings to the contrary), but rather would love to start, in effect, a rumor with just enough feasibility that it takes hold in the general consciousness. Then, they'll hope that others will do something and they can sit back and watch the show.

It is in no way, shape, or form about finding truth. It is only about stirring up trouble. Anarchists in diapers.
Yawn... excuse me did you say something?

[nicepants]

Thank you. Just out of curiosity what are the names of the people who will be in attendance at the next Super bowl? Come on quick. I'm waiting.

We're not clamoring for a "new and independent" super bowl...so the names of those who attend aren't a concern. We'll accept the results regardless of the attendees.

I find it surprising that you claim the NIST investigation was junk, yet refuse to provide any names of people you WOULD trust to investigate the events of 9/11. Are you just going to leave it up to the government to decide again?

[JimBenArm]

We're not clamoring for a "new and independent" super bowl...so the names of those who attend aren't a concern. We'll accept the results regardless of the attendees.

I find it surprising that you claim the NIST investigation was junk, yet refuse to provide any names of people you WOULD trust to investigate the events of 9/11. Are you just going to leave it up to the government to decide again?
Of course he is! Otherwise, he'd have to take responsibility for the outcome, and when it comes to the same conclusion, he couldn't blame the government!

[ZENSMACK89]

Yes, in fact to pull such a stunt would require thousands of people involved. Think about it.

I love this claim. You want to think about something? How come it always seems to be it would take thousands of people to pull off an inside job to take down the towers but only 19 hijackers can do it according to you? [/QUOTE]

Zen, how do you determine what's a fact ?

With real evidence.


So far, you said you'd want the government to pay for it, but have no part in it. It'd like to know who you'd find to make this investigation happen that ISN'T employed by the government. The funding problem makes the situation worse.

Hey I’m open to alternative funding. Got any suggestions?

[ZENSMACK89]

Of course he is! Otherwise, he'd have to take responsibility for the outcome, and when it comes to the same conclusion, he couldn't blame the government!
Read it again.

http://www.physics911.net/stevenjones
A truly independent, international panel would consider all viable hypotheses, including the pre-positioned-explosives theory, guided not by politicized notions and constraints, but rather by observations and calculations, to reach a scientific conclusion. Questioning (preferably under oath) of officials who approved the rapid removal and destruction of the WTC steel beams and columns before they could be properly analyzed — and others as outlined above — should proceed in the United States.

As far as a criminal an investigation…

I would imagine there would first need to be a new administration then a real attorney general and a Department of Justice that does its job. There would need to be congressional hearings where no one is out of reach or above questioning even if they have already left their position or office. Maybe even a new commission. Ultimately seeing what 9-11 led to there should be War Crime trials led by an international body. The US also needs to take a hard look at War profiteering.

[nicepants]

I love this claim. You want to think about something? How come it always seems to be it would take thousands of people to pull off an inside job to take down the towers but only 19 hijackers can do it according to you?

Because the version supported by the facts only requires hijackers to fly planes into buildings. Your version requires hundreds of engineers, experts, cover-up agents, etc etc etc.


Hey I’m open to alternative funding. Got any suggestions?

Sure...start up a website and start taking donations from the people who want this investigation done.

[TheRedWorm]

Read it again.

http://www.physics911.net/stevenjones
A truly independent, international panel would consider all viable hypotheses, including the pre-positioned-explosives theory, guided not by politicized notions and constraints, but rather by observations and calculations, to reach a scientific conclusion. Questioning (preferably under oath) of officials who approved the rapid removal and destruction of the WTC steel beams and columns before they could be properly analyzed — and others as outlined above — should proceed in the United States.

As far as a criminal an investigation…

I would imagine there would first need to be a new administration then a real attorney general and a Department of Justice that does its job. There would need to be congressional hearings where no one is out of reach or above questioning even if they have already left their position or office. Maybe even a new commission. Ultimately seeing what 9-11 led to there should be War Crime trials led by an international body. The US also needs to take a hard look at War profiteering.


Hypothetically, let's say that this all comes to pass, and this new investigations findings agree with the current findings. Do you accept this new investigation as legitimate?

[Regnad Kcin]

This post is great. It is great too see people come together too express there anger. While the other forums I visit spend time discussing issues i'm glad too see the other side isn't doing anything constructive besides working out anger issues.


The United States Governments will continue to do as they please including breaking laws, conducting cover-ups too laws broken, and passing of bills, and excutive orders to slowly erode our freedoms. Mainly because theres enough of the population out there which won't even begin too question and always assumes the best of our politicians. Our government couldn't possibly do anything corrupt according too what I read on this website. Our country is bar far the most advanced on earth with the best and the brightest available too our politicians whenever they're needed. Yet once again no conspiracy could possibly excist with all this brain power at there disposal. As i'm now officially part of the National Archive too impeach George Bush and Dick Cheney I have a clear concience. Whether or not the horrific details of this adminstation ever become fully exposed is yet too be seen, however i'm not holding my breath. Hopefully for the sake of our Countries future Impeachment laws are upheld and Bush, Cheney, and Gonzo all recieve what by law is required.

In conclusion, My aunt who is a Psychologist would be very proud of what you guys have accomplished here on your own. Normally costs quite a bit for a group discussion as a form too release anger. As she's an Impeachment supporter and supporter of 911 full disclusre she wouldn't aggree with you, however she would listen.

love,

OldschoolFriend:

Your post above is filled to the brim with logical fallacies, overreaching assumptions, and good ol' fashioned nonsense.

You're probably a terrific chap, but you're letting your passions get the better of you.

Welcome to the forum. I wish you the best.

[ZENSMACK89]

Hypothetically, let's say that this all comes to pass, and this new investigations findings agree with the current findings. Do you accept this new investigation as legitimate?
Yes

[ZENSMACK89]

Because the version supported by the facts only requires hijackers to fly planes into buildings. Your version requires hundreds of engineers, experts, cover-up agents, etc etc etc.




Sure...start up a website and start taking donations from the people who want this investigation done.
But then the official story holders would claim I'm just a CT site. I want it to be an investigation for all.

[JimBenArm]

But then the official story holders would claim I'm just a CT site. I want it to be an investigation for all.
But only the CT's want a new investigation. A new investigation is only for their benefit. No one else wants or sees the need for a new one. So saying it would be "for all" is absurd. It most certainly would not be for me!

[Billdave2]

Read it again.

http://www.physics911.net/stevenjones
A truly independent, international panel would consider all viable hypotheses, including the pre-positioned-explosives theory, guided not by politicized notions and constraints, but rather by observations and calculations, to reach a scientific conclusion. Questioning (preferably under oath) of officials who approved the rapid removal and destruction of the WTC steel beams and columns before they could be properly analyzed — and others as outlined above — should proceed in the United States.


Make up your mind! Do you want all viable hypotheses or do you want pre-positioned expolsives? Since it would require vast teams of demolitions experts months to rig a building the size of WTC7 (let alone one of the towers) and would be obvious to anyone during that time that something was going on, pre-planted explosives is not a viable theory.

[ZENSMACK89]

Make up your mind! Do you want all viable hypotheses or do you want pre-positioned expolsives? Since it would require vast teams of demolitions experts months to rig a building the size of WTC7 (let alone one of the towers) and would be obvious to anyone during that time that something was going on, pre-planted explosives is not a viable theory.
I've addressed this already. If the endorsers of the official story are going to claim that a plane crash that caused structural damage and pockets of fire to a few floors near the top of a 110 story building resulted in global collapse an hour later then they really need to stop contradicting themselves by claiming it would take vast teams of demolition experts months to do the very same thing. On one hand you point to the amount of work it would take to bring down something as massive as the towers then in the next breath claim the planes took them down as if they were made of paper mache and Elmer’s glue.
Were the 10 hijackers a vast team of demolition experts? Did they need more then one morning? Are airplanes so much more efficient at knocking down one building let alone two others in one day including one it never touched?

[ZENSMACK89]

Really?

http://www.cbc.ca/sunday/911hamilton.html
9/11: TRUTH, LIES AND CONSPIRACY
INTERVIEW: LEE HAMILTON
August 21, 2006

Hamilton: I don’t believe for a minute that we got everything right. We wrote a first draft of history. We wrote it under a lot of time pressure, and we sorted through the evidence as best we could.

Hamilton: People will be investigating 9/11 for the next hundred years in this country, and they’re going to find out some things that we missed here.

Hamilton: I don’t know that we’ve told the definitive story of 9/11, but surely anybody in the future who tackles that job will begin with the 9/11 Commission Report.

Just who is Hamilton talking about here that might tackle the job in the future and tell the definitive story of 9-11?

Do you think he might have names?

[Par]

If the endorsers of the official story are going to claim that a plane crash that caused structural damage and pockets of fire to a few floors near the top of a 110 story building resulted in global collapse an hour later then they really need to stop contradicting themselves by claiming it would take vast teams of demolition experts months to do the very same thing. On one hand you point to the amount of work it would take to bring down something as massive as the towers then in the next breath claim the planes took them down as if they were made of paper mache and Elmer’s glue.



I’m frankly staggered that I should need to tell you this, but carrying out a surreptitious controlled demolition on a constantly populated building will indeed involve more work than smashing a commercial airliner into it will.

[HyJinX]

Just who is Hamilton talking about here that might tackle the job in the future and tell the definitive story of 9-11?


Why these guys of course.

[Slayhamlet]

Really?

http://www.cbc.ca/sunday/911hamilton.html
9/11: TRUTH, LIES AND CONSPIRACY
INTERVIEW: LEE HAMILTON
August 21, 2006

Hamilton: I don’t believe for a minute that we got everything right. We wrote a first draft of history. We wrote it under a lot of time pressure, and we sorted through the evidence as best we could.

Hamilton: People will be investigating 9/11 for the next hundred years in this country, and they’re going to find out some things that we missed here.

Hamilton: I don’t know that we’ve told the definitive story of 9/11, but surely anybody in the future who tackles that job will begin with the 9/11 Commission Report.

Just who is Hamilton talking about here that might tackle the job in the future and tell the definitive story of 9-11?

Do you think he might have names?

I'm sure he meant the fine folks behind the entirely Internet-driven phenomenon that is the Truth™ movement, who have yet to posit a theory that is even internally consistent, let alone verifiable. I mean, who else? There's no possible way he could have meant future historians of merit, people who would do real, verifiable research outside the domain of Youtube videocraft. And surely your name, ZENSMACK89, Truth™ warrior and Internet poster, will be among them!

[Belz...]

Thank you. Just out of curiosity what are the names of the people who will be in attendance at the next Super bowl? Come on quick. I'm waiting.

Excuse me. What was the point of this question ?

I love this claim. You want to think about something? How come it always seems to be it would take thousands of people to pull off an inside job to take down the towers but only 19 hijackers can do it according to you?

I suppose you think that's very clever.

How many people does it take to hijack four planes ? Well, at least four people, yes ? Eight, actually, if you want the guy with the bomb to occupy the passengers while another one pilots the plane. Twelve, if you want someone to assist the pilot. Those same twelve people can do all the planning, anyway, and only four of them need know how to fly these big things.

So I don't see how 19 is too small a number.

Now, how many people does it take to do all the things the CTs claim the conspirators did ? Well, you need at least several dozen people to plant the explosives. Of course, planting explosives isn't like flying a plane that's already in the air and then crash it into a skyscraper. You need to know precisely where to place the charges, and doing all that on one of the WTC towers will take you over a year, to say nothing about having to do it in secret. All those NIST experts, demolition experts, etc. who are aware of this incident will also have to be shut up, otherwise they may spot that something's amiss, so they're all in on it, when you think about it. We're already up to thousands of people, Zen. Need I go on ?

Zen, how do you determine what's a fact ?
With real evidence.

Good, good. Please present said evidence, since you seem already convinced that the "OT" is "just a theory".

Hey I’m open to alternative funding. Got any suggestions?

Sell more DVDs and T-shirts.

[Belz...]

Oh, and Zen:

Please explain why you think :

P) 9/11 was NOT an inside job

means

Q) The government can do no evil.

[Belz...]

I've addressed this already. If the endorsers of the official story are going to claim that a plane crash that caused structural damage and pockets of fire to a few floors near the top of a 110 story building resulted in global collapse an hour later then they really need to stop contradicting themselves by claiming it would take vast teams of demolition experts months to do the very same thing. On one hand you point to the amount of work it would take to bring down something as massive as the towers then in the next breath claim the planes took them down as if they were made of paper mache and Elmer’s glue.

Zen, your level of ignorance is apalling.

How much time would it take for people to dissassemble New York City ? I mean, seriously ?

If a meteor crashed in the middle of Manhattan and blew up everything, would it mean that a meteor DIDN'T crash because it would take people a whole lot longer than that to demolish a town ?

PLANES CRASHED INTO THE TOWERS, Zen. Do you have any idea of the forces involved ? Because NIST does, and they have come to a conclusion that you cannot comprehend. But your incredulity does not an argument make.

Are airplanes so much more efficient at knocking down one building

Yes. Start crashing airliners at full speed into buildings and see what happens.

let alone two others in one day including one it never touched?

That old canard again ?

Did you miss the 110-storey building that fell on it ?

[Billdave2]

I've addressed this already. If the endorsers of the official story are going to claim that a plane crash that caused structural damage and pockets of fire to a few floors near the top of a 110 story building resulted in global collapse an hour later then they really need to stop contradicting themselves by claiming it would take vast teams of demolition experts months to do the very same thing. On one hand you point to the amount of work it would take to bring down something as massive as the towers then in the next breath claim the planes took them down as if they were made of paper mache and Elmer’s glue.
Were the 10 hijackers a vast team of demolition experts? Did they need more then one morning? Are airplanes so much more efficient at knocking down one building let alone two others in one day including one it never touched?

Using this logic, since it only takes a few hours to get to LA from NY, large groups of people can walk thre in a few hours also. Do you see the logical fallicy her? Just because all of Alma Kogen is dead, does not mean all dead people are Alma Kogen or that fish live in trees, or your significant other is cheating on you.

[Regnad Kcin]

I've addressed this already. If the endorsers of the official story are going to claim that a plane crash that caused structural damage and pockets of fire to a few floors near the top of a 110 story building resulted in global collapse an hour later then they really need to stop contradicting themselves by claiming it would take vast teams of demolition experts months to do the very same thing. On one hand you point to the amount of work it would take to bring down something as massive as the towers then in the next breath claim the planes took them down as if they were made of paper mache and Elmer’s glue.
Were the 10 hijackers a vast team of demolition experts? Did they need more then one morning? Are airplanes so much more efficient at knocking down one building let alone two others in one day including one it never touched?Oh my.

[twinstead]

Zen, now you're just getting silly. This HAS to be a joke.

[steve s]

If the endorsers of the official story are going to claim that a plane crash that caused structural damage and pockets of fire to a few floors near the top of a 110 story building resulted in global collapse an hour later then they really need to stop contradicting themselves by claiming it would take vast teams of demolition experts months to do the very same thing. On one hand you point to the amount of work it would take to bring down something as massive as the towers then in the next breath claim the planes took them down as if they were made of paper mache and Elmer’s glue.
Were the 10 hijackers a vast team of demolition experts? Did they need more then one morning? Are airplanes so much more efficient at knocking down one building let alone two others in one day including one it never touched?

As someone said above, "Oh my!" This really is one of the worst arguments I've seen from a truther.

If I'm not mistaken, the tallest building that the Loizeaux family has taken down was 30 stories tall. And even though they only rigged 11 of those 30 floors with explosives, it took them an entire month to wire it up. An entire month for 11 stories. How long would it take to rig 220+ stories?

Now you're arguing that they should be able to rig 220 stories in the same amount of time that it took the planes and fire to bring down the towers. You're in serious need of professional help if you can't see the fallacy in that.

Steve S.

[twinstead]

Mjd, you're a pretty hard-core conspiracy theorist. How do you feel about kids like ZENSMACK89 coming on here and making your movement look like it's populated by a bunch of idiots?

I have one word: COINTELPRO

[Redtail]

Finally someone gives a straight answer. Was that so hard?

Now tell me how taxpayer money is better used. What's more important then 3,000 dead on 9-11?

Being a college professor and with what I'm seeing coming out of high schools these days, education.

Giving another no bid contract to KBR? How much taxpayer money is spent on the Governments "misinformation team" to squash rumors all of you claim are nonsense that hardly anyone believes anyway?

None.

Is that worth more then the 3000 dead?

Ok, your turn to answer a question. By the quote above, it seems that you believe that money should be no object in the investigation. So why don't the truthers pony up the dough? IIRC there are a few celebs that should be able to cover a good portion of the cost.

[OldSchool]

Zen even though it wasn't addressed too me I'll answer your question.

I would only accept a new investigations findings if a few variables were met. First the findings would have too have overwhelming proof the entire operation was conducted by a foreign group such as "Al-qaeda", which currently there isn't anything substantial. 2nd all documents and executive orders pre-911 too present day would have too be declassified for public knowledge. This disclosure would have too include anything and everything in regards too 911 itself and the Iraq operation which followed. Last and most importantly the investigation must be conducted by an entity outside the Federal branch of government.


Since documents can be classified for up too 25 years I'll be 56 years old before anything substantial is proven. As I have visited declassified archives a few times, I am very aware of the Black Magic Marker which is used on many documents before there release. Even by 2026 when the day of 911 becomes declassified information its highly unlikely the whole truth will come too bare. I enjoy the company of the truth movement however from experience I feel its a lost cause. I do feel very strongly the government has failed too substantiate there claims of 911, however with current information available its impossible to substantiate any alternative theory. This last sentence is the exact reason I feel without any doubt 911 was much bigger than an act of terrorism. Posts which ask "Truthers" for concrete proof, for any alternative view, simply plays into the hands of the "Federal Government", doing exactly they'd hoped. Just imagine it from the opposite perspective once. The truth movement although growing with a large base doesn't represent any kind of danger without concrete proof. If 911 really was an inside job, It was a complete success from the side of the conspirators.

[twinstead]

If 911 really was an inside job, It was a complete success from the side of the conspirators.

What's ironic is that to many in the truth movement, not only was the 'inside job' NOT a complete success, they made so many mistakes that anybody with an internet connection and the ability to view YouTube videos are able to figure it out.

[Myriad]

http://www.physics911.net/stevenjones
A truly independent, international panel would consider all viable hypotheses, including the pre-positioned-explosives theory, guided not by politicized notions and constraints, but rather by observations and calculations, to reach a scientific conclusion. Questioning (preferably under oath) of officials who approved the rapid removal and destruction of the WTC steel beams and columns before they could be properly analyzed — and others as outlined above — should proceed in the United States.

As far as a criminal an investigation…

I would imagine there would first need to be a new administration then a real attorney general and a Department of Justice that does its job. There would need to be congressional hearings where no one is out of reach or above questioning even if they have already left their position or office. Maybe even a new commission. Ultimately seeing what 9-11 led to there should be War Crime trials led by an international body. The US also needs to take a hard look at War profiteering.

An interesting start to describing the investigation you want. Would you mind helping me clarify a few specific points by answering these questions?

1. Should the investigators have the power to subpoena witnesses, that is force them to appear and testify under oath even if they don't want to? Or should witness cooperation be optional?

2. Should the investigators have the power to arrest, or cause to be arrested, witnesses who fail to appear on command? (Note that if the answer is no, the answer to question 1 must be that cooperation is optional.)

3. Should the investigators have the power to imprison or otherwise penalize witnesses who appear (or are arrested as per question 2), but refuse to answer questions?

4. Should the investigators have access to information that the U.S. Department of Defense has designated "classified" (or other similar designations e.g. secret, non-exportable technology, etc.) in the interest of national security?

5. Should the investigators have access to information that corporations in the U.S. have desgnated as trade secrets?

6. Should the investigators have the power to criminally prosecute and sentence individuals for crimes revealed by their investigation? If so, under what body of law? If not, what measures if any should they take if criminal acts are disclosed?

The answers to these questions are very important in determining whether I, or most other Americans, would be in favor of such an investigation, neutral about it (that is, not advocating it but accepting it if it happens), or actively opposed to it.

Respectfully,
Myriad

[Billdave2]

Thank you. Just out of curiosity what are the names of the people who will be in attendance at the next Super bowl? Come on quick. I'm waiting.

Roger Gaudell will be at the Superbowl this year. There I have named one person. Can you name one person for your investigation?

[Viper Daimao]

Roger Gaudell will be at the Superbowl this year. There I have named one person. Can you name one person for your investigation?

I think you mean Roger Goodell, don't you?

[Belz...]

As someone said above, "Oh my!" This really is one of the worst arguments I've seen from a truther.

If I'm not mistaken, the tallest building that the Loizeaux family has taken down was 30 stories tall. And even though they only rigged 11 of those 30 floors with explosives, it took them an entire month to wire it up. An entire month for 11 stories. How long would it take to rig 220+ stories?

Now you're arguing that they should be able to rig 220 stories in the same amount of time that it took the planes and fire to bring down the towers. You're in serious need of professional help if you can't see the fallacy in that..

One word demolishes all of your arguments, Steve: THERMITE.

:rolleyes:

[Belz...]

First the findings would have too have overwhelming proof the entire operation was conducted by a foreign group such as "Al-qaeda", which currently there isn't anything substantial.

And in the meantime your null hypothesis is "inside job" ?

[wooooody64]

It was only in April when I started researching more into the truth movement to better understand what their "evidence" is. As most of you have come to the same conclusion as I have, they are full of [rule8].

What makes me despise the Truthers more is the fact that they call the FDNY, NYPD, and PAPD murders. They claim that they were involved with the horrible acts of 9/11.

I hope you truthers can sleep at night for stepping on the honor and memory that these men and women have about their job.

Is it not unjust, to despise people just because of their point of view. I believe so.

At this moment in time I myself am undecided as to what happened on that fateful day, which is part of the reason I came to this forum. I doubt if I will ever know the truth (considering the response I got here) :rolleyes:

But one thing I can say, is that from all the research I have done, into both sides, I can honestly say that I have not read of any "truthers" who have called "the FDNY, NYPD, and PAPD murders (sic)".

[CHF]

But one thing I can say, is that from all the research I have done, into both sides, I can honestly say that I have not read of any "truthers" who have called "the FDNY, NYPD, and PAPD murders (sic)".

No, they're not dumb enough to phrase it like that. But their whole WTC7 demolition can't help but impliacte the FDNY in at least the coverup, if not the execution.

Only Alex Jones has had the gall to come right out and say it (on his website) and he's been denying it ever since.

[Reheat]

Is it not unjust, to despise people just because of their point of view. I believe so.
"the FDNY, NYPD, and PAPD murders (sic)".

You are very, very wrong! Not only do they accuse FDNY, NYPD, PAPD and many, many others of involvement, but any one of the various "conspiracy theories" must inevitable involve literally thousands of people in various branches of the US Military, specifically/mostly the US Air Force.

If you think for one minute that does not [rule8] off all of the military members here as well as most other member of this forum you are living in la, la, land.

No, I don't despise them I [rule8] them!

[Billdave2]

I think you mean Roger Goodell, don't you?

Yes that is who I meant, my spelling is off today (most days actually). But he will definatly be at the Superbowl.

[wooooody64]

You are very, very wrong! Not only do they accuse FDNY, NYPD, PAPD and many, many others of involvement, but any one of the various "conspiracy theories" must inevitable involve literally thousands of people in various branches of the US Military, specifically/mostly the US Air Force.

If you think for one minute that does not [rule8] off all of the military members here as well as most other member of this forum you are living in la, la, land.

No, I don't despise them I [rule8] them!

You quoted me, "Is it not unjust, to despise people just because of their point of view" and said I was wrong.

I must disagree, it is very wrong to despise someone simply because you dont like their opinion. I think we shall have to agree to disagree on that one.

CHF states, "they're not dumb enough to phrase it like that"

Whilst you say, "Not only do they accuse FDNY, NYPD, PAPD and many, many others of involvement"

Do you have a link with evidence of this? Before I book my ticket to la la land.

[Reheat]

Do you have a link with evidence of this? Before I book my ticket to la la land.

Nah, you don't need evidence and you don't need a ticket, you are obviously already there.

[Drudgewire]

Whilst you say, "Not only do they accuse FDNY, NYPD, PAPD and many, many others of involvement"

Do you have a link with evidence of this? Before I book my ticket to la la land.
All you need is any link to any theory that includes the words "controlled demolition," "bombs," "thermite," or "Bush aministration." Because there's no such thing as a conspiracy theory involving any of those factors that, once you actually start considering the possibility, could have ever have been pulled off without complicity by... at the very least... the NYFD and NYPD.

[CHF]

CHF states, "they're not dumb enough to phrase it like that"

Whilst you say, "Not only do they accuse FDNY, NYPD, PAPD and many, many others of involvement"

Just to be clear, truthers do indeed accuse the FDNY. Their logic demands that they do.

However most of them know better than to come out and say it seeing how vile an accusation it is. That's why they always squirm when the "pull it" claim is taken to its logical conclusion.

Again, look up prisonplanet.com to see what was written there about Silverstein and the FDNY taking down WTC7.

Naturally, no truther has the guts to waltz into an FDNY firehouse and make their accusations there.

[Billdave2]

You quoted me, "Is it not unjust, to despise people just because of their point of view" and said I was wrong.

I must disagree, it is very wrong to despise someone simply because you dont like their opinion. I think we shall have to agree to disagree on that one.

CHF states, "they're not dumb enough to phrase it like that"

Whilst you say, "Not only do they accuse FDNY, NYPD, PAPD and many, many others of involvement"

Do you have a link with evidence of this? Before I book my ticket to la la land.

It depends on the opinion. I wouldn't despise someone who is of the opinion that fish flavored ice cream is delicious, but I would despise someone who thinks that having sex with a small child is OK (I am looking at you NAMBLA!). I wouldn't despise someone who is of the opinion that there may be more to the story of 9/11 than we know, but despise someone whose opinion slanders/libels people like the FDNY, NYPD etc with absolutly no evidence.

[wooooody64]

Nah, you don't need evidence and you don't need a ticket, you are obviously already there.


Where's your manners?

[Stellafane]

..I must disagree, it is very wrong to despise someone simply because you dont like their opinion. I think we shall have to agree to disagree on that one.


Sorry Woooody64, gotta disagree big time with you on that one. Off the top of my head I can think of plenty of opinions that merit despising, both for the opinion itself and the person who holds it. For instance, those NAMBLA people, the ones who hold the opinion that it's OK for grown men to have sex with young boys of any age. Don't they deserve to be despised? Or racists who believe we should hang members of whatever race they don't belong to, how about them?

As I mentioned before (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=2498831&highlight=doink#post2498831), the world isn't all one big matter of opinion, truth and reality also play major roles. And some people try to wrap the mantle of "opinion" around beliefs that are stupid, wrong, and just plain crazy. If some people want to proclaim their opinion that the FDNY is part of a conspiracy that murdered many of their own members, so be it. But don't expect that opinion to be respected, nor that persons voicing it shouldn't be despised.

[wooooody64]

All you need is any link to any theory that includes the words "controlled demolition," "bombs," "thermite," or "Bush aministration." Because there's no such thing as a conspiracy theory involving any of those factors that, once you actually start considering the possibility, could have ever have been pulled off without complicity by... at the very least... the NYFD and NYPD.

They could not have been involved. Does not make sense, if the towers were rigged with explosives, I dont see how the NYFD and NYPD would be involved, why would they turn up?

if they knew what was going to happen? Would'nt of that been suicide?

Still does not disprove CD though.

[wooooody64]

Just to be clear, truthers do indeed accuse the FDNY. Their logic demands that they do.

However most of them know better than to come out and say it seeing how vile an accusation it is. That's why they always squirm when the "pull it" claim is taken to its logical conclusion.

Again, look up prisonplanet.com to see what was written there about Silverstein and the FDNY taking down WTC7.

Naturally, no truther has the guts to waltz into an FDNY firehouse and make their accusations there.

It is indeed a vile accusation, and one that does not make sense. I have saw a bit off stuff on pp.com, I will head over there again.

[Reheat]

Where's your manners?

Even Judith Martin would likely kick your [rule8] without asking questions if you subscribe to the typical CT poppycock.

[Drudgewire]

They could not have been involved. Does not make sense, if the towers were rigged with explosives, I dont see how the NYFD and NYPD would be involved, why would they turn up?

if they knew what was going to happen? Would'nt of that been suicide?

Still does not disprove CD though.
It does unless you have magic bombs that leave no evidence... because the only other logical explanation is that the low level guys ignored bomb remains and the higher-ups covered it up in reports.

And it's hard enough to burn down a toolshed without investigators figuring it out. But two skyscrapers and a mutli-story building?

See the problem with trying to claim firefighters and cops weren't involved?

[T.A.M.]

Wooooody64:

Sorry Woooody64, gotta disagree big time with you on that one. Off the top of my head I can think of plenty of opinions that merit despising, both for the opinion itself and the person who holds it. For instand, those NAMBLA people, the ones who hold the opinion that it's OK for grown men to have sex with young boys of any age. Don't they deserve to be despised? Or racists who believe we should hang members of whatever race they don't belong to, how about them?

As I mentioned before (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=2498831&highlight=doink#post2498831), the world isn't all one big matter of opinion. And some people try to wrap the mantle of "opinion" around beliefs that are stupid, wrong, and just plain crazy. If some people want to proclaim their opinion that the FDNY is part of a conspiracy that murdered many of their own members, so be it. But don't expect that opinion to be respected, nor that thye shouldn't be despised for voicing it.

What he said, and...

The 9/11 truthers are like good snake oil salesmen. They are very careful with how they word things, and what NOT to directly say.

Many of them quote the Indira Singh who states that she was told by members of the FDNY that they (the FD) was going to have to bring down WTC7.

Now while noone was killed it WTC7, the fact that believing this quote means you believe the FDNY was IN ON THE COVER UP, means you also believe they were apart of the cover up of the 9/11 attacks...you can't pick and choose. SO therefore, indirectly, they are calling members of the FDNY murders, by insinuating they are part of the greater cover up.

TAM:)

[Slayhamlet]

It is indeed a vile accusation, and one that does not make sense. I have saw a bit off stuff on pp.com, I will head over there again.

pp.com?

[TheRedWorm]

shorthand for prison planet, I believe.

[wooooody64]

Even Judith Martin would likely kick your [rule8] without asking questions if you subscribe to the typical CT poppycock.

As I stated, I am undecided, and with stupid responses like yours, I may never get to understand what happend, so unless you have something sensible to say, butt out :)

[ZENSMACK89]

An interesting start to describing the investigation you want. Would you mind helping me clarify a few specific points by answering these questions?

1. Should the investigators have the power to subpoena witnesses, that is force them to appear and testify under oath even if they don't want to? Or should witness cooperation be optional?

2. Should the investigators have the power to arrest, or cause to be arrested, witnesses who fail to appear on command? (Note that if the answer is no, the answer to question 1 must be that cooperation is optional.)

3. Should the investigators have the power to imprison or otherwise penalize witnesses who appear (or are arrested as per question 2), but refuse to answer questions?

4. Should the investigators have access to information that the U.S. Department of Defense has designated "classified" (or other similar designations e.g. secret, non-exportable technology, etc.) in the interest of national security?

5. Should the investigators have access to information that corporations in the U.S. have desgnated as trade secrets?

6. Should the investigators have the power to criminally prosecute and sentence individuals for crimes revealed by their investigation? If so, under what body of law? If not, what measures if any should they take if criminal acts are disclosed?

The answers to these questions are very important in determining whether I, or most other Americans, would be in favor of such an investigation, neutral about it (that is, not advocating it but accepting it if it happens), or actively opposed to it.

Respectfully,
Myriad
I would say yes to most of these. If 9-11 happened the way they currently claim what's not to disclose? If it's a concern for something like National security or any other reason they should be given an opportunity to make a case for said concerns. Without penalties the investigation would have no teeth so they not only should have the power but the penalties should be severe for not cooperating.

Of course this would be a two phase investigation. One to determine as closely as possible if and how the official version could or couldn't have happened then if need be a criminal phase.

No matter what the outcome there should then be recommendations and implementations for future prevention of such acts.

[Slayhamlet]

shorthand for prison planet, I believe.

Oh. I probably should have suspected that.

Incidentally, didn't Prison Planet run a story directly accusing the FDNY?

[Drudgewire]

Oh. I probably should have suspected that.

Incidentally, didn't Prison Planet run a story directly accusing the FDNY?
Yup, linked right on page two of this very thread.

http://www.prisonplanet.com/012004watson.html

Update: People Died in WTC 7: This Makes Silverstein and the FDNY Guilty of AT LEAST Manslaughter

[TheRedWorm]

I think they did, Saying they were at least guilty of manslaughter. Gravy might have a link.

ETA: Thanks Drudgewire

[Reheat]

As I stated, I am undecided, and with stupid responses like yours, I may never get to understand what happend, so unless you have something sensible to say, butt out :)

No Thank-You, I'll stay. You can't learn anything sensible by going to CT Sites. MOST folks do some research prior to coming here, so pardon me if I assumed that you had.

ANY CT about the WTC (include all), the Pentagon strike, the crash in PA all involve the complicity of THOUSANDS of people. While the CT group don't explicitly say that, it is an OBVIOUS conclusion. If you can't understand that then you are indeed blind and living in la, la land just as I said previously.

[ZENSMACK89]

Zen even though it wasn't addressed too me I'll answer your question.

I would only accept a new investigations findings if a few variables were met. First the findings would have too have overwhelming proof the entire operation was conducted by a foreign group such as "Al-qaeda", which currently there isn't anything substantial. 2nd all documents and executive orders pre-911 too present day would have too be declassified for public knowledge. This disclosure would have too include anything and everything in regards too 911 itself and the Iraq operation which followed. Last and most importantly the investigation must be conducted by an entity outside the Federal branch of government.


Since documents can be classified for up too 25 years I'll be 56 years old before anything substantial is proven. As I have visited declassified archives a few times, I am very aware of the Black Magic Marker which is used on many documents before there release. Even by 2026 when the day of 911 becomes declassified information its highly unlikely the whole truth will come too bare. I enjoy the company of the truth movement however from experience I feel its a lost cause. I do feel very strongly the government has failed too substantiate there claims of 911, however with current information available its impossible to substantiate any alternative theory. This last sentence is the exact reason I feel without any doubt 911 was much bigger than an act of terrorism. Posts which ask "Truthers" for concrete proof, for any alternative view, simply plays into the hands of the "Federal Government", doing exactly they'd hoped. Just imagine it from the opposite perspective once. The truth movement although growing with a large base doesn't represent any kind of danger without concrete proof. If 911 really was an inside job, It was a complete success from the side of the conspirators.
It's our job as Americans to demand the truth not the half truth or excuses to pacify us. Although much of it has still not been revealed because of the very things you write about if people didn't keep pushing over 30 years ago much of what did come out in the Watergate hearings would still be nothing but a rumor or conspiracy theory.

[Drudgewire]

pp.com?

shorthand for prison planet, I believe.

For the most juvenile of reasons, that's just hilarious. :D

[TheRedWorm]

I didn't notice until you mentioned it :D

[nicepants]

Yup, linked right on page two of this very thread.

http://www.prisonplanet.com/012004watson.html

Update: People Died in WTC 7: This Makes Silverstein and the FDNY Guilty of AT LEAST Manslaughter

Gravy asked Alex Jones about this, there is a video somewhere. AJ repeatedly denied accusing firefighters of being a part of the plot, and called Gravy a liar. Yet it's obvious from looking at Alex's website that he's the only one lying.

Gravy, got that link handy? Your thread over at PP was deleted.

[ZENSMACK89]

Being a college professor and with what I'm seeing coming out of high schools these days, education.



None.



Ok, your turn to answer a question. By the quote above, it seems that you believe that money should be no object in the investigation. So why don't the truthers pony up the dough? IIRC there are a few celebs that should be able to cover a good portion of the cost.
There plenty of taxpayer money wasted everyday on crap most people don’t even realize. Education is very important and more money should go to it but I think finding out exactly what happened on 9-11 is just as important if for nothing else just to prevent it from happing again. Truthers have funded investigations into 9-11 but because of no Government acknowledgement except a campaign to discourage and discredit an independently funded investigation would only be labeled conspiracy theory. We already know for a fact the abuses some of the military contractors have done with our taxpayer money along with the profits they have made so it's about time for a windfall war profit tax. That would be more then enough to fund a real investigation.

[beachnut]

It's our job as Americans to demand the truth not the half truth or excuses to pacify us. Although much of it has still not been revealed because of the very things you write about if people didn't keep pushing over 30 years ago much of what did come out in the Watergate hearings would still be nothing but a rumor or conspiracy theory.
Watergate? It was solved by research. Darn, independent research. You truthers are just too challenged to do real research, why?

Watergate was solved in less than TWO years and they won a Pulitzer Prize. What is your excuses for messing up everything 9/11??? Sad.

[wooooody64]

You are very, very wrong! Not only do they accuse FDNY, NYPD, PAPD and many, many others of involvement, but any one of the various "conspiracy theories" must inevitable involve literally thousands of people in various branches of the US Military, specifically/mostly the US Air Force.

Where did you get this information from? CT sites? You can’t learn anything from those sites you know.

You can't learn anything sensible by going to CT Sites. MOST folks do some research prior to coming here, so pardon me if I assumed that you had.

As Ive said many times now, Im not an expert, unlike some here, so you are pardoned.

I had hope coming here would help me understand what happened by discussing the issue with knowledgeable people.

[wooooody64]

Your thread over at PP was deleted.

:D he said PP again lol

[9/11 Chewy Defense]

It's our job as Americans to demand the truth not the half truth or excuses to pacify us. Although much of it has still not been revealed because of the very things you write about if people didn't keep pushing over 30 years ago much of what did come out in the Watergate hearings would still be nothing but a rumor or conspiracy theory.

It's also our "job" to judge which is fact & which is fiction. Take the case of the R.M.S. TITANIC, there's still secrets from the ship coming to surface after it sank 95 years ago on April 15, 1912 at 2:20 AM.

http://fayette.k12.in.us/~cbeard/calliope/titanic.gif

Does it look like explosives were planted inside TITANIC from the link I provided? Hard to tell isn't it? So why did the ship break in 2 Zen? Why did 1,500 people die? Was it the plot of both the U.S. & British Governments to sink the ship & kill hundreds if not thousands of people on it?

If you can answer those correctly then you'll know fact from fiction.

[Drudgewire]

There plenty of taxpayer money wasted everyday on crap most people don’t even realize.

So let's waste more. Great idea.

Education is very important and more money should go to it but I think finding out exactly what happened on 9-11 is just as important if for nothing else just to prevent it from happing again.

Most people know exactly what happened.

Truthers have funded investigations into 9-11 but because of no Government acknowledgement except a campaign to discourage and discredit an independently funded investigation would only be labeled conspiracy theory.

Well... that and the pesky "we don't have real evidence but REALLY REALLY THINK this is how it happened" case that would be presented.

We already know for a fact the abuses some of the military contractors have done with our taxpayer money along with the profits they have made so it's about time for a windfall war profit tax. That would be more then enough to fund a real investigation.

Ummm... what?

[Alt+F4]

Watergate was solved in less than TWO years and they won a Pulitzer Prize. What is your excuses for messing up everything 9/11??? Sad.

Yup. So where's the 9/11 "Deep Throat"? Where's the 9/11 Frank Serpico? Come on, you've had almost six years to find them.

[ZENSMACK89]

I’m frankly staggered that I should need to tell you this, but carrying out a surreptitious controlled demolition on a constantly populated building will indeed involve more work than smashing a commercial airliner into it will.
Of course it would but why? Should we stop building missiles and start building some flying aluminum jet fuel tanks? I mean if it can take down a 110 story building in a fraction of the time it takes a controlled demolition team what could stop it? And not just once like a freak accident or something you claim it happened twice in a row exactly the same way and worked so good it took out the building across the street without ever hitting it. Why don't we retire some of our old passenger fleet, fill them up with fuel, then remote control guide them into Iran’s nuclear facilities? Or would that be overkill?

[ZENSMACK89]

Watergate? It was solved by research. Darn, independent research. You truthers are just too challenged to do real research, why?

Watergate was solved in less than TWO years and they won a Pulitzer Prize. What is your excuses for messing up everything 9/11??? Sad.
Really. So what exactly were they looking for in that hotel room? Specifically? Do we know for sure what Nixon was so paranoid they had? I mean they risked getting caught and well… did get caught. It must have been important. How long did it take Felt to come out? Wasn’t it just recently? You have to keep pushing for truth or they’ll give you none or try to get you to settle for half.

[Drudgewire]

Really. So what exactly were they looking for in that hotel room? Specifically?
Extra pillow mints.

[ZENSMACK89]

It's also our "job" to judge which is fact & which is fiction. Take the case of the R.M.S. TITANIC, there's still secrets from the ship coming to surface after it sank 95 years ago on April 15, 1912 at 2:20 AM.

http://fayette.k12.in.us/~cbeard/calliope/titanic.gif

Does it look like explosives were planted inside TITANIC from the link I provided? Hard to tell isn't it? So why did the ship break in 2 Zen? Why did 1,500 people die? Was it the plot of both the U.S. & British Governments to sink the ship & kill hundreds if not thousands of people on it?

If you can answer those correctly then you'll know fact from fiction.
Did the Titanic lead to a war with the icebergs? Hmmmm tell me more. I'm fascinated.

[wooooody64]

Wooooody64:

SO therefore, indirectly, they are calling members of the FDNY murders, by insinuating they are part of the greater cover up.

TAM:)

What would you ask those members of the FDNY who describe the collapse as "it was like they had detonators, like they had planned to take down the building, boom,boom,boom,boom, floor by floor"?

[Redtail]

There plenty of taxpayer money wasted everyday on crap most people don’t even realize. Education is very important and more money should go to it but I think finding out exactly what happened on 9-11 is just as important if for nothing else just to prevent it from happing again. Truthers have funded investigations into 9-11 but because of no Government acknowledgement except a campaign to discourage and discredit an independently funded investigation would only be labeled conspiracy theory. We already know for a fact the abuses some of the military contractors have done with our taxpayer money along with the profits they have made so it's about time for a windfall war profit tax. That would be more then enough to fund a real investigation.

So truthers just gave up on an independently funded investigation?

[Redtail]

What would you ask those members of the FDNY who describe the collapse as "it was like they had detonators, like they had planned to take down the building, boom,boom,boom,boom, floor by floor"?

I'd ask them where they learned to use similes so well.

[tsig]

Thank you. Just out of curiosity what are the names of the people who will be in attendance at the next Super bowl? Come on quick. I'm waiting.

And we remove the goalposts and insert home plate.

[ZENSMACK89]

So let's waste more. Great idea.



Most people know exactly what happened.



Well... that and the pesky "we don't have real evidence but REALLY REALLY THINK this is how it happened" case that would be presented.



Ummm... what?
I don't think finding out how 3,000 people died is a waste. Having the need to setup a "counter misinformation team" to push things like Blanchard's bare assertions is the waste.

No one knows for sure. There's been no complete investigation.

Windfall War Profits Tax. Fund an investigation and take away incentive for war lobbying.

[wooooody64]

I'd ask them where they learned to use similes so well.

They would probably answer "in school"

My question would be, do you think the towers were brought down in a controlled demolition?

[Par]

If the endorsers of the official story are going to claim that a plane crash that caused structural damage and pockets of fire to a few floors near the top of a 110 story building resulted in global collapse an hour later then they really need to stop contradicting themselves by claiming it would take vast teams of demolition experts months to do the very same thing. On one hand you point to the amount of work it would take to bring down something as massive as the towers then in the next breath claim the planes took them down as if they were made of paper mache and Elmer’s glue.I’m frankly staggered that I should need to tell you this, but carrying out a surreptitious controlled demolition on a constantly populated building will indeed involve more work than smashing a commercial airliner into it will.Of course it would but why? Should we stop building missiles and start building some flying aluminum jet fuel tanks? I mean if it can take down a 110 story building in a fraction of the time it takes a controlled demolition team what could stop it? And not just once like a freak accident or something you claim it happened twice in a row exactly the same way and worked so good it took out the building across the street without ever hitting it. Why don't we retire some of our old passenger fleet, fill them up with fuel, then remote control guide them into Iran’s nuclear facilities? Or would that be overkill?



So, first you make the rather silly claim that if the high-speed impact of a commercial airliner and subsequent fires can cause the collapse a building in approximately an hour, then a controlled demolition should be able to be carried out that quickly as well. Next, you start waxing sarcastic about aircraft being more destructive than ballistic-missiles.

I have no idea what point you’re trying to make.

[Redtail]

They would probably answer "in school"

My question would be, do you think the towers were brought down in a controlled demolition?

That would be a good question.

[nicepants]

Why don't we retire some of our old passenger fleet, fill them up with fuel, then remote control guide them into Iran’s nuclear facilities? Or would that be overkill?

Why waste a $60Million + jumbo jet when you can use a $1.3M cruise missile with pinpoint accuracy, less chance of being shot down, greater speed, and more destruction?

I'm certainly glad you're not in charge of any government spending...

[ZENSMACK89]

So truthers just gave up on an independently funded investigation?
No I don't think they've stopped by a long shot. There’s more of them now then ever. They don't have access to the evidence and the people they need to have to do a complete investigation though.

[ZENSMACK89]

So, first you make the rather silly claim that if the high-speed impact of a commercial airliner and subsequent fires can cause the collapse a building in approximately an hour, then a controlled demolition should be able to be carried out that quickly as well. Next, you start waxing sarcastic about aircraft being more destructive than ballistic-missiles.

I have no idea what point you’re trying to make.
Why am I not surprised?

[wooooody64]

That would be a good question.

I think thats a point to include in my research, it would be very interesting to find the answer.

[Redtail]

No I don't think they've stopped by a long shot. There’s more of them now then ever. They don't have access to the evidence and the people they need to have to do a complete investigation though.

But a government funded investigation would?

[Par]

Why am I not surprised?



Well, one reason that one might not be surprised is that your posts were both foolish and illogical. However, whether that’s the reason that you are not surprised is an entirely different question.

So, enlighten me. What is you point?

[Drudgewire]

I don't think finding out how 3,000 people died is a waste. Having the need to setup a "counter misinformation team" to push things like Blanchard's bare assertions is the waste.
Again, we know how it happened. We know why it happened. Sorry that's not enough for the paranoia brigade but there are plenty of you guys with your own resources to fund this.

"Placating the weirdos" is not one of the functions of government.

[dudalb]

I would bet that if the Democrats gain control of the White House,and launch a new full scale investigation of 9/11,and end up not buying into the Truth Movement's crap (which is what would happen) the Twoofers will begin shouting how Hilary or Obama or Edwards of whoever has sold out,and is in on it.
If it's Hilary in office, look for "evidence" that the Inside Job Planning begun when Bill was in office.
THe point is no matter how fair ,the Twoofers will reject any investigation that does not share their kooky opinions.

[TheRedWorm]

I would bet that if the Democrats gain control of the White House,and launch a new full scale investigation of 9/11,and end up not buying into the Truth Movement's crap (which is what would happen) the Twoofers will begin shouting how Hilary or Obama or Edwards of whoever has sold out,and is in on it.
If it's Hilary in office, look for "evidence" that the Inside Job Planning begun when Bill was in office.
THe point is no matter how fair ,the Twoofers will reject any investigation that does not share their kooky opinions.


That is a very distinct possibility, but I don't think that all of them will persist. I know that at least some of the people are politically motivated, so there may be hope with the changing of administrations.

[ZENSMACK89]

But a government funded investigation would?
Yes because they would need things like subpoena power and for people to testify under oath.

[ZENSMACK89]

Why waste a $60Million + jumbo jet when you can use a $1.3M cruise missile with pinpoint accuracy, less chance of being shot down, greater speed, and more destruction?

I'm certainly glad you're not in charge of any government spending...
Don't they ever send old Jetliners to the scrap yard? Besides the flying jet fuel tank would never cost as much as a missile and look at the damage it does. Are you saying the towers would have fell down if they were hit by one missile?

[tsig]

Yes because they would need things like subpoena power and for people to testify under oath.

And if you had this power?

Would you get the truth?

power=truth

[ZENSMACK89]

And we remove the goalposts and insert home plate.
Yes it is a stupid question. I wonder where I got that idea anyway. I hope some people aren't rubbing off on me.

[ZENSMACK89]

And if you had this power?

Would you get the truth?

power=truth
So who ever is in power creates the truth? Is that what they're doing with their NIST report?

[dudalb]

That is a very distinct possibility, but I don't think that all of them will persist. I know that at least some of the people are politically motivated, so there may be hope with the changing of administrations.

There will be some attrition,yes,but look for a bunch of Right Wing Wackos to take up the slack in Conspiracy crap with a whole bunch of new Conspiracy Theories first time something big happens in a Democratic Adminsitration.Sadly, CT's are eternal.

[dudalb]

So who ever is in power creates the truth? Is that what they're doing with their NIST report?


Sorry,Can't Resist it.........
THE TRUTH! YOU CAN"T HANDLE THE TRUTH!

Thanks for letting me get that out of my system.

[WildCat]

Yes because they would need things like subpoena power and for people to testify under oath.
And you think the perps who actually did pull off (insert whatever 9/11 CT you believe in here) would leave a paper trail and tell the truth on the witness stand? Taking care of those ends would be no problem after what they did on 9/11!

[ZENSMACK89]

Again, we know how it happened. We know why it happened. Sorry that's not enough for the paranoia brigade but there are plenty of you guys with your own resources to fund this.

"Placating the weirdos" is not one of the functions of government.
Well then maybe you should fill in Tom Kean and Lee Hamilton.

[ZENSMACK89]

And you think the perps who actually did pull off (insert whatever 9/11 CT you believe in here) would leave a paper trail and tell the truth on the witness stand? Taking care of those ends would be no problem after what they did on 9/11!
Subpoena power. It's a beautiful thing. You see it gets people to tell on each other.

[TheRedWorm]

There will be some attrition,yes,but look for a bunch of Right Wing Wackos to take up the slack in Conspiracy crap with a whole bunch of new Conspiracy Theories first time something big happens in a Democratic Adminsitration.Sadly, CT's are eternal.


I think that the Apollo hoax people bear that out. For every world changing event, there is a conspiracy waiting to be formed around it.

[Redtail]

Yes because they would need things like subpoena power and for people to testify under oath.

So it's still the government carrying out the investigation.

[Redtail]

Subpoena power. It's a beautiful thing. You see it gets people to tell on each other.

Really? How? I ask because although I'm not a lawyer I could swear that many people who have been subpoenaed have still lied under oath.

[Drudgewire]

Well then maybe you should fill in Tom Kean and Lee Hamilton.
I think they know already. http://www.lethalwrestling.com/upload/ssh.gif

[ZENSMACK89]

Really? How? I ask because although I'm not a lawyer I could swear that many people who have been subpoenaed have still lied under oath.
Then why didn't the Pres and VP refuse to?

[ZENSMACK89]

So it's still the government carrying out the investigation.
Not completely.

[ZENSMACK89]

Then why didn't the Pres and VP refuse to?
I meant why did they?

[ZENSMACK89]

I think they know already. http://www.lethalwrestling.com/upload/ssh.gif
Not definitively according to them. In fact they say they are sure there’s plenty they’ve missed.

[Alt+F4]

Then why didn't the Pres and VP refuse to?

To mess with your head. The CTer's believe that Bush & Cheney are evil enough to have ordered the murder of thousands but they suddenly wimp out when faced with a bible and a purjury charge.

[ZENSMACK89]

Really? How? I ask because although I'm not a lawyer I could swear that many people who have been subpoenaed have still lied under oath.
And how did you find out they lied?

[ZENSMACK89]

To mess with your head. The CTer's believe that Bush & Cheney are evil enough to have ordered the murder of thousands but they suddenly wimp out when faced with a bible and a purjury charge.
To mess with my head? Is that the best you got?

[Drudgewire]

Not definitively according to them. In fact they say they are sure there’s plenty they’ve missed.
I'd say they've found out government isn't going to cater their hunches, which is exactly what I said. They already know the government's job isn't to placate weirdos, even if they might want it to.

[Alt+F4]

To mess with my head? Is that the best you got?

They got to you, didn't they?

[Myriad]

An interesting start to describing the investigation you want. Would you mind helping me clarify a few specific points by answering these questions?

1. Should the investigators have the power to subpoena witnesses, that is force them to appear and testify under oath even if they don't want to? Or should witness cooperation be optional?

2. Should the investigators have the power to arrest, or cause to be arrested, witnesses who fail to appear on command? (Note that if the answer is no, the answer to question 1 must be that cooperation is optional.)

3. Should the investigators have the power to imprison or otherwise penalize witnesses who appear (or are arrested as per question 2), but refuse to answer questions?

4. Should the investigators have access to information that the U.S. Department of Defense has designated "classified" (or other similar designations e.g. secret, non-exportable technology, etc.) in the interest of national security?

5. Should the investigators have access to information that corporations in the U.S. have desgnated as trade secrets?

6. Should the investigators have the power to criminally prosecute and sentence individuals for crimes revealed by their investigation? If so, under what body of law? If not, what measures if any should they take if criminal acts are disclosed?

The answers to these questions are very important in determining whether I, or most other Americans, would be in favor of such an investigation, neutral about it (that is, not advocating it but accepting it if it happens), or actively opposed to it.

I would say yes to most of these. If 9-11 happened the way they currently claim what's not to disclose? If it's a concern for something like National security or any other reason they should be given an opportunity to make a case for said concerns. Without penalties the investigation would have no teeth so they not only should have the power but the penalties should be severe for not cooperating.

All right, here's the problem: As an American citizen in America, if I receive a subpoena that comes from anything other than agents of the American judicial system as established under law in accordance with the U.S. Federal and State Constitutions, it's trash. Either the investigation is being conducted by authority of the U.S. Government, or it's being conducted by foreign agents or domestic gangsters and it's my duty as a citizen not to cooperate with it.

What you seem to be asking for is an investigation that's independent of all levels of constituted government, but that has subpoena power and the ability to convene a court of law and enforce penalties for not cooperating. That's illegal and unconstitutional. If I were to reveal national security secrets to such a body, I'd be committing treason.

However, if you're looking for organizations that have experience conducting this kind of investigation, involving coercing people to appear and answer questions, and enacting penalties without Government authority, I can suggest the Mafia (American or Russian, take your pick), or perhaps the The Ku Klux Klan, the Mossad, Murder Inc., maybe a handful of others.

Respectfully,
Myriad

[peter sutcliffe]

Damn I am angry.
I'm sorry I can't read all these posts without posting.
I'm new here so let me just cut to the chase, My Brother worked for Cantor Fitzgerald on the 103 floor of the WTC north tower and I had only visited him at work 5 days before 911.
These bozo's that think my brothers death is now some sort of game on the internet are beyond contempt and to be quite frank if I was in a room with them now i would smash their stupid brains all over.
This is why I hate them,

[Redtail]

And how did you find out they lied?

In the case I'm thinking of, Brandon told me after the trial.

[twinstead]

Damn I am angry.
I'm sorry I can't read all these posts without posting.
I'm new here so let me just cut to the chase, My Brother worked for Cantor Fitzgerald on the 103 floor of the WTC north tower and I had only visited him at work 5 days before 911.
These bozo's that think my brothers death is now some sort of game on the internet are beyond contempt and to be quite frank if I was in a room with them now i would smash their stupid brains all over.
This is why I hate them,

Welcome to the forum, and I'm deeply sorry for your loss.

And yes, the vast majority of these bozos think your brother's death is some sort of cool video game they play with YouTube videos and conspiracy websites.

[TheRedWorm]

Welcome to the forum, Mr. Sutcliffe. I am sorry about your brother.

[Redtail]

Then why did the Pres and VP refuse to?

*Bolding mine due to Zen making a correction later. You can edit your post btw.*

I don't know, but what makes you think that being under oath makes one tell the truth?

[Reheat]

These bozo's that think my brothers death is now some sort of game on the internet are beyond contempt and to be quite frank if I was in a room with them now i would smash their stupid brains all over.
This is why I hate them,

You would have to hurry or you'd be at the end of a VERY long line!

Condolences regarding your brother.

Welcome to the Forum!

[Myriad]

Welcome to the forum, Mr. Sutcliffe.

I'm very sorry about your brother. I'm not sure there is any solace here for you, but I hope there is, and you are more than welcome to seek it.

I'll caution you that watching the 9/11 consipracy theory videos would likely be a very painful and wrath-provoking experience.

I hope also that you'll understand and forgive the fact that, grappling with monsters as we do, some (if not all) of the rationalists here including myself perpetually risk becoming monsters ourselves. That is to say, we get caught up in the intellectual challenge of argumentation or the heat of dispute, and speak in ways that the victims of this tragedy might justifiably find callous or even outright offensive. Humor that's intended to mock the mockers might sometimes strike a nerve it wasn't aimed at.

On the other side of the same coin, this seems to be a common experience here:

http://static.stripgenerator.com/generated/anonymous/strip/2007/06/01/does-this-happen-to-you.png

Respectfully,
Myriad

[peter sutcliffe]

Thank you all for the welcome. I promise that will be my one and only rant.
These people try to use our loss for political gain.
If you hate bush then just say so, damn I don't like Bush and I never liked Blair, but to accuse them of mass murder on that fateful day is over the line.

[T.A.M.]

What would you ask those members of the FDNY who describe the collapse as "it was like they had detonators, like they had planned to take down the building, boom,boom,boom,boom, floor by floor"?

I would say they are using the word "like", to compare the event to something we are more familiar with, in order that we can have an idea of what it may have sounded or looked SIMILAR too.

Are you Dylan Avery...he doesn't know what a simile is either....

TAM")

[T.A.M.]

Welcome to the forum Peter.
I am sorry for your loss, and the tragedy that was 9/11.

TAM:)

[OldSchool]

Watergate? It was solved by research. Darn, independent research. You truthers are just too challenged to do real research, why?

Watergate was solved in less than TWO years and they won a Pulitzer Prize. What is your excuses for messing up everything 9/11??? Sad.

There's a very large difference between Watergate and the current administration. When discussing breaking of Constitutional law the Bush Administration has gone much farther than Nixon ever did. Executive Privilege wasn't comparable too dictatorial powers during the Nixon administration, or Nixon would never have had too resign. There was a great deal of classified documents leaked during the Nixon administration which lead too his resignation. If the people who did leak the information hadn't put there jobs on the line, once again, Nixon wouldn't have resigned. Unless somebody breaks the law and leaks information which would some how incriminate this administration its going too be very difficult too conduct an investigation, while George W. Bush still holds office with Executive Privilege. I have actually seen a video somewhere, I'm not sure where, which actually begs for somebody inside the white house too put it all on line and leak classified documents. Hasn't been an unbiased, or should I say non-political, investigation during the Bush administration. Considering the on going investigation of our Justice department, it could easily be said, every investigation since Bush took office has been Politically motivated.

What exactly do you expect from the Truth movement. Isn't as though the truth movement has a voice of power. The current Administration has political control not only over the Justice Department, but any Federal Judge who could enforce Subpoena's which have been ignored. The Truth movement serves a very good purpose though. They're making noise because questions haven't been answered by an administration which has political control over all forms of investigation. How could the Truth Movement Possibly conduct an investigation when most the documents they need too even begin aren't at there disposal? I think the Noise is a pure example of American Freedom and the day the noise goes away were no longer a Free Country.


"You can never silence the voice of the voice less" Rage Against the Machine.

[JimBenArm]

Damn I am angry.
I'm sorry I can't read all these posts without posting.
I'm new here so let me just cut to the chase, My Brother worked for Cantor Fitzgerald on the 103 floor of the WTC north tower and I had only visited him at work 5 days before 911.
These bozo's that think my brothers death is now some sort of game on the internet are beyond contempt and to be quite frank if I was in a room with them now i would smash their stupid brains all over.
This is why I hate them,
Welcome Mr. Sutcliffe.
I am very sad about your brother. Your anger is quite justified, as these fools want to use him as a political football in their sick game.
I hope you will continue to contribute here. It sounds like you have a unique perspective, that we all can learn from. Maybe in some small way we can offer you a bit of comfort as well.

Thanks for coming here!

[ZENSMACK89]

*Bolding mine due to Zen making a correction later. You can edit your post btw.*

I don't know, but what makes you think that being under oath makes one tell the truth?
Well for one thing it's already proven that the Pres and the VP didn't want to testify separately to the 9-11 commission under oath. This is because if they had to lie they would have had to tell the same lie the same way without knowing what the other said. This would go the same for all under oath. That's how NORAD and the FAA got caught saying things that just weren't true according to Tom Kean.

[T.A.M.]

"You can never silence the voice of the voice less" Rage Against the Machine.

:rolleyes:

[OldSchool]

Thank you all for the welcome. I promise that will be my one and only rant.
These people try to use our loss for political gain.
If you hate bush then just say so, damn I don't like Bush and I never liked Blair, but to accuse them of mass murder on that fateful day is over the line.

I have never actually thought of the truth movement that way before, However, the statement you've made is very accurate. Personally don't believe George Bush's is bright enough too even be included in the loop if such a Conspiracy has been Conducted. I can't say I hate George Bush, although he's by far the worst President our country has ever seen. Dick Cheney's is a different story though. He should be brought up on war crimes at the very least and I feel as though the investigation should run much deeper. Would I go as far as too accuse him of being a Mass Murderer, Maybe. I'd ask you too supply proof he isn't a mass murdered, however were innocent until proven guilty in this great Country.

Try too keep in mind there is a lot of noise out there right now and most of it is because of all the secrets which are being kept. You're always going too here the worst when there are secrets being kept. I ask you, why not assume the worst when the side being accused won't release there secrets?

[ZENSMACK89]

All right, here's the problem: As an American citizen in America, if I receive a subpoena that comes from anything other than agents of the American judicial system as established under law in accordance with the U.S. Federal and State Constitutions, it's trash. Either the investigation is being conducted by authority of the U.S. Government, or it's being conducted by foreign agents or domestic gangsters and it's my duty as a citizen not to cooperate with it.

What you seem to be asking for is an investigation that's independent of all levels of constituted government, but that has subpoena power and the ability to convene a court of law and enforce penalties for not cooperating. That's illegal and unconstitutional. If I were to reveal national security secrets to such a body, I'd be committing treason.

However, if you're looking for organizations that have experience conducting this kind of investigation, involving coercing people to appear and answer questions, and enacting penalties without Government authority, I can suggest the Mafia (American or Russian, take your pick), or perhaps the The Ku Klux Klan, the Mossad, Murder Inc., maybe a handful of others.

Respectfully,
Myriad
I don't see why for instance in the case of the 9-11 commission it had to be put together by the President himself or why they even have to all be Americans with declared political affiliations on he commission. Why was it the President (along with Cheney I'm sure) himself who got to decide whether or not there would be any investigation at all and then got to set the ground rules like how subpoena power would work? This is not an investigation it’s a whitewash. Surly it can be done differently. And if you want to start comparing things to organizes crime you need not look any further then the people who put together the 9-11 commission.

[T.A.M.]

OldSchool said:


I'd ask you too supply proof he isn't a mass murdered,

I ask you, why not assume the worst when the side being accused won't release there secrets?


And the above my friends, is the truth movement, and OldSchool in a nutshell.

And they wonder why we do what we do...lol

TAM:)

[stateofgrace]

Try too keep in mind there is a lot of noise out there right now and most of it is because of all the secrets which are being kept. You're always going too here the worst when there are secrets being kept. I ask you, why not assume the worst when the side being accused won't release there secrets?

Indeed, I see how this works. Clinton gets blown job in total privacy and everybody knows about it.

Bush and co murder 3000 innocent people in broad day light and it is kept secret.

Yep, I see your point.

Welcome to the forum Peter .

[OldSchool]

OldSchool said:



And the above my friends, is the truth movement, and OldSchool in a nutshell.

And they wonder why we do what we do...lol

TAM:)

Really taken out of context. Should include at least the whole sentence when quoting.

"I'd ask you supply proof "Dick Cheney" isn't a mass murderer, however in this country were innocent until proven guilty."

[OldSchool]

In a court of law with somehow unbiased Jurors is there an attorney alive who could prove too the judge and jury Al qaeda members are guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

See my point now?

[Reheat]

See my point now?

The main thing I see in your posts is the continued abuse of the English Language. :rolleyes:

That even over shadows your BS garbage that continues unabated.

[dudalb]

What exactly do you expect from the Truth movement
Intelligence and respect for Facts....none of which I am getting.

Isn't as though the truth movement has a voice of power.

Considering how the Truth Movement treats those who are critical of it,Thank The Great Spaghetti Monster for that.

BTW ,I wish I had a dime for every loon who quotes Rage Against The Machine to try to get some radical cred.
I love how Rage Against the Machine claims to be an Anti Capitalist group complete with Noah Chomsky displays at there concerts while living a typical ultra rich Rock Star style life. And if memory serves were'nt they involved in some legal actions against their record company over their share of the profits? Does not sound very Anti Capitalist to me.

[Pardalis]

Last edited by OldSchool : Today at 08:28 PM. Reason: found a mistake

ROFLMAO

[kookbreaker]

In a court of law with somehow unbiased Jurors is there an attorney alive who could prove too the judge and jury Al qaeda members are guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.


We certainly convicted one of them involved in the plot.

[Slayhamlet]

In a court of law with somehow unbiased Jurors is there an attorney alive who could prove too the judge and jury Al qaeda members are guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

See my point now?

Are you really this uninformed?

[Slayhamlet]

ROFLMAO

Sad, isn't it? He claims to be a writer.

[stateofgrace]

In a court of law with somehow unbiased Jurors is there an attorney alive who could prove too the judge and jury Al qaeda members are guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

See my point now?

I don't know,is there?


Three of the suspects are accused of helping to organise the 11 September 2001 attacks on America.



Jose Luis Galan - Allegedly filmed New York landmarks in 1997 for al-Qaeda. He is accused of 2,500 murders and belonging to a terrorist group
Immad Yarkas - Al-Qaeda's alleged leader in Spain, he is accused of 2,500 murders, belonging to a terrorist group and possessing counterfeit money
Driss Chebli - Allegedly helped al-Qaeda members involved in the 9/11 attacks. He is accused of 2,500 murders and belonging to a terrorist group

A Spanish court has sentenced Syrian-born Imad Yarkas to 27 years for conspiracy to commit murder in connection with the 11 September attacks in the US.


A Moroccan man convicted in Germany as an accessory to the attacks on the United States in September 2001 has been sentenced to 15 years in jail.
The court in Hamburg handed the maximum sentence against Mounir al-Motassadek.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6242867.stm
http://www.borrull.org/e/noticia.php?id=52369&id2=14556&PHPSESSID=5ede58df5580b5a50791875b71bf1616
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4282764.stm

[Pardalis]

Sad, isn't it? He claims to be a writer.

You got too be kidding.

[OldSchool]

I'm informed enough too know the current white house has shattered all the records for classified documents every year since Bill Clinton left office.

[Pardalis]

:D

[HyJinX]

I'm informed enough too know the current white house has shattered all the records for classified documents every year since Bill Clinton left office.

So your motivation clearly seems to politically motivated and not a search for truth. Duly noted. Thanks.

[OldSchool]

So your motivation clearly seems to politically motivated and not a search for truth. Duly noted. Thanks.

Although I am a registered Democrat I share views on both sides of the isle as well as a few from the Green Party. I am Registered Democrat because they're the closest thing too what I view which has a chance of winning.

Being aware of the fact that George Bush has classified more documents every year concurrently since taking office isn't political motivation its simply being aware of the fact.


On a political level I'll admit I'm very excited. George Bush's entering his lame duck phase. The House Judiciary Committee is going too provide much entertainment right through the first year of the next Administration.

[OldSchool]

StateofGrace you've listed two convictions which both were in foreign courts. Would be quite different here and would be very difficult too even field a jury. Although if there was such a trial held during the current administration, Unitary Powers of the President would probably suspend the constitution for there trial.

Was strictly Hypothetical comment. In this country if Al qaeda members were tried the same as any other common murderer, they would have too find jurors who weren't even aware of the case. If you could produce such a jury there isn't anyway you'd manage a conviction with the current circumstantial evidence. On a side note Donald Rumsfeld was indicted by a German Court for War Crimes.