Why does faith deserve respect? A great video I found on youtube

[modecom]

This is one of the reasons why I love youtube.

Why does faith deserve respect?

ETA: Short answer: It doesn't.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPAC_cGVnUg


“faith is nothing more than the deliberate suspension of disbelieve……..” - patcondell

[Moochie]

This is one of the reasons why I love youtube.

Why does faith deserve respect?

ETA: Short answer: It doesn't.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPAC_cGVnUg


“faith is nothing more than the deliberate suspension of disbelieve……..” - patcondell

Yeah, he's very articulate.

M.

[Miss Anthrope]

The whole concept of respecting faith is just something I don't understand any more. People either earn my respect or show me I should have little respect for them. There are many people who have faith, and behave in such a way that I have tremendous respect for them--as people. A very different thing. Magical thinking as a concept? No.

[Cainkane1]

Ambroise Bierce said in his 'Devils Dictionary" that faith was belief without proof in what someone says without knowledge of things without parallel.

[SusanB-M1]

The link for thisYou Tube video was posted on one of the BBC message boards the other day, which just goes to show how quickly such down-to-earth common sense truth is being disseminated. I had never heard of this man before, but shall find time to read more.

What with Marcus Brigstock (on the 'Now Show' BBC Radio 4, Friday evenings 6:30 p.m.) giving on two consecutive weeks recently talks against the Abrahamic religions and blasting them all equally (for which the e-mail response to 'Feedback' was heavily supportive, including from people of faith) and MPs taking their copies of TGD on holiday with them, perhaps things are going the right way.
There is also a new forum, International Humanism, (again posted on a BBC MB) which I had a look at today.

[Buckaroo]

The whole concept of respecting faith is just something I don't understand any more. People either earn my respect or show me I should have little respect for them. There are many people who have faith, and behave in such a way that I have tremendous respect for them--as people. A very different thing. Magical thinking as a concept? No.

Hate the faith, love the faithful. :D*


*I love being able to turn fundy language against fundies.

[TTLer]

This is one of the reasons why I love youtube.

Why does faith deserve respect?

ETA: Short answer: It doesn't.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPAC_cGVnUg


“faith is nothing more than the deliberate suspension of disbelieve……..” - patcondell



Excellent link, thanks modecom. That fellow has several other great vids on his Youtube homepage (http://www.youtube.com/user/patcondell).

Indeed I agree religion is undeserving of respect. I view all religious people as mentally ill people infected with a disease that causes delusions, racism, sexism, pedophilia, incest, homophobia etc. Edit - and then pass on the sickness to their children.



Hate the faith, love the faithful.



Respectfully disagree - Even the mildest of believers unknowingly support a virus reservoir (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=what+is+a+virus+reservoir%3F&btnG=Google+Search) for extremists, who use religion an excuse for their actions.

[Buckaroo]

Respectfully disagree - Even the mildest of believers unknowingly support a virus reservoir (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=what+is+a+virus+reservoir%3F&btnG=Google+Search) for extremists, who use religion an excuse for their actions.

:D You might have something there...

[Big Les]

What with Marcus Brigstock (on the 'Now Show' BBC Radio 4, Friday evenings 6:30 p.m.) giving on two consecutive weeks recently talks against the Abrahamic religions and blasting them all equally (for which the e-mail response to 'Feedback' was heavily supportive, including from people of faith) and MPs taking their copies of TGD on holiday with them, perhaps things are going the right way.

Marcus is great (going back to "We Are History" days) - I'm going to see his stand-up for the third time towards the end of this month. I actually posted a thread containing the Listen Again link for his original rant over in Humour, but probably should have put it here. The link will be to the wrong show by now.

I made a dodgy recording of it in Windows Sound Recorder but it's 72mb! Not sure my IT skills extend to converting and compressing it enough to email size (or to put it up on Youtube), but if anyone's interested I could give it a go. It's hot stuff. Except that as you say, the anticipated avalanche of complaints never materialised - the majority of feedback was positive and came from atheists/agnostics and Christians - not much at all from Muslims or Jews though.

[bridgy]

The link for thisYou Tube video was posted on one of the BBC message boards the other day, which just goes to show how quickly such down-to-earth common sense truth is being disseminated. I had never heard of this man before, but shall find time to read more.

What with Marcus Brigstock (on the 'Now Show' BBC Radio 4, Friday evenings 6:30 p.m.) giving on two consecutive weeks recently talks against the Abrahamic religions and blasting them all equally (for which the e-mail response to 'Feedback' was heavily supportive, including from people of faith) and MPs taking their copies of TGD on holiday with them, perhaps things are going the right way.
There is also a new forum, International Humanism, (again posted on a BBC MB) which I had a look at today.

Marcus Brigstocke on the 3 Abrahamic religions - awesome! Here's a Youtube link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42p2SO5wQag

[Big Les]

I was just on my way back here to say no need for my crappy recording, because inevitably, some bugger has put it up already, complete with amusing piccies, and there goes bridgy beating me to the punch.

You're not actually "briggy", are you?

[bridgy]

You're not actually "briggy", are you?

No!:D

[bridgy]

Ah - just found the 2nd part of Marcus Brigstocke's religious rant, so if you enjoyed part 1...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yewj9FaMgAU

[modecom]

Excellent link, thanks modecom. That fellow has several other great vids on his Youtube homepage (http://www.youtube.com/user/patcondell).


No problems TTLer, I have now subscribed to Pat's channel and have been watching them. Hello America (http://youtube.com/watch?v=0Zqbz563pNQ) and God bless atheism (http://youtube.com/watch?v=y4mWiqkGy-Y) are so far the standouts.

Another youtuber I really like is pdoeman (http://www.youtube.com/user/pdoeman). A little more subtle than Pat, however, no less passionate. A good video of Paul's to start with is Atheism: Why don't religous people ask questions? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7tDzvh86dg)

I can’t understand how adults can believe in a god, I just don’t understand…. - pdoeman

Enjoy!!

[modecom]

Marcus Brigstocke on the 3 Abrahamic religions - awesome! Here's a Youtube link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42p2SO5wQag


Brilliant, thanks bridgy.

[Safe-Keeper]

Marcus Brigstocke on the 3 Abrahamic religions - awesome! Here's a Youtube link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42p2SO5wQaghttp://shots.snap.com/images/v2.15.5/t.gif (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42p2SO5wQag)
Oh, that:D. I saw it on FSTDT, and wondered if it was still available somewhere after the radio show took it down. Thanks a whole lot.

[Big Les]

The lack of outrage in part 2, and in the Radio 4 Feedback show that aired between the two is almost disappointing! But for the one moron still convinced that Christianity had been attacked to the exclusion of the other religions. Instant classic stuff.

*considers how to lure the real Brigstocke to the forums*

[SusanB-M1]

Ah - just found the 2nd part of Marcus Brigstocke's religious rant, so if you enjoyed part 1...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yewj9FaMgAU
Well, that was interesting. I couldn't work out how to make a response, but perhaps someone on this forum could tell him that Aunty Susan suggests he join the BHA to add numerical support to their efforts and thus raise the profile of atheism.

ETA - Ah, that's the wrong post I've quoted, the video I've just watched was the one with the young man talking for 15 minutes. So I must have clicked on the wrong 'Reply with Quote' button. Sorry!

[Big Les]

None of these are 15mins long - any other clues?

[modecom]

None of these are 15mins long - any other clues?

I think Aunty Susan is referring to this video (14 minutes 58 seconds) link I posted.

Atheism: Why don't religous people ask questions? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7tDzvh86dg)

It is well worth watching.

[SusanB-M1]

I think Aunty Susan is referring to this video (14 minutes 58 seconds) link I posted.

Atheism: Why don't religous people ask questions? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7tDzvh86dg)

It is well worth watching.

Yes, that's the one - thank you!

[Big Les]

Doh, sorry. Carry on!

[Undesired Walrus]

Respecting faith is nothing to do with respect.

It is about people being fearful they are going to be called a Christianphobe, Islamaphobe, Buddaphobe etc etc.

It's why Scientology is so easy to attack. Because you are never going to be accused of being racist.

[-Fran-]

I like this guy :)

Respecting faith is nothing to do with respect.

It is about people being fearful they are going to be called a Christianphobe, Islamaphobe, Buddaphobe etc etc.

It's why Scientology is so easy to attack. Because you are never going to be accused of being racist.

There are actually words like these? :confused: (My emphasis.)

I've never been afraid of that! If someone countered with something like that after I've told them that I am an atheist, and that I can't understand why people believe in such things, then I would probably just laugh that off (unless the word Christianphobe was roared at me and followed by a baseball bat ;) ).

I can't see the difference between scientology and religious beliefs in this case. Why would it be racist to not respect a religious belief? :confused: Do people really pull this card in cases like this?

Be that as it may, I have one friend who is a Christian, and another friend who is a priest, and they know I am an atheist, but the reason why I don't tell them the same things the guy on YouTube said, is because it would hurt their feelings if I did, and I don't want that. That's the only reason for me personally, at least with these two individuals.

[Fnord]

If you want me to respect your faith that there is no God,
Then you must also respect my faith that there is a God.

If you do not respect my faith,
Then there is no reason for me to respect yours.

It's just that simple.

[joobz]

If you do not respect my faith,
Then there is no reason for me to respect yours.

But in this case, the theists drew first blood....literally.*

[modecom]

If you want me to respect your faith that there is no God,
Then you must also respect my faith that there is a God.

If you do not respect my faith,
Then there is no reason for me to respect yours.

It's just that simple.


Sorry Fnord, but I don't have any faith for you to respect.

It's just that simple!!

[andyandy]

Sorry Fnord, but I don't have any faith for you to respect.

It's just that simple!!

You are a completely rational being?

Religious faith is just a subset of irrationality - and everyone is irrational - however much some may like to pride themselves with claims to the contrary. To extend the label of mental illness to those who profess religious belief is to extend it to irrationality and to the species as a whole. One needs to consider biological compunction over and above any Platonic notions of disassociated rational intellect. Indeed, humans have a remarkable propensity to formulate thought influenced from an inherent tendency towards in group/out group splits. An irrationality that is sometimes apparent even on JREF;)

for the click lazy (like me :) ), here is the embedded youtube clip

WPAC_cGVnUg

[modecom]

You are a completely rational being?

Are you asking or telling me?


Religious faith is just a subset of irrationality - and everyone is irrational - however much some may like to pride themselves with claims to the contrary. To extend the label of mental illness to those who profess religious belief is to extend it to irrationality and to the species as a whole. One needs to consider biological compunction over and above any Platonic notions of disassociated rational intellect. Indeed, humans have a remarkable propensity to formulate thought influenced from an inherent tendency towards in group/out group splits. An irrationality that is sometimes apparent even on JREF

I agree, religious faith is irrational, it is very irrational. I also think religious faith is woo and deserves no respect. I would go as far to say that religious faith/belief is the ultimate woo.

I also agree, everyone can be irrational. I used to smoke cigarettes, that’s irrational. I just spent $740 on a pair of shoes, that’s irrational. I’m sure I do hundreds of irrational things. Being irrational doesn’t necessarily mean that you have a mental illness or are woo.


for the click lazy (like me ), here is the embedded youtube clip

Thanks.

[andyandy]

I agree, religious faith is irrational, it is very irrational. I also think religious faith is woo and deserves no respect. I would go as far to say that religious faith/belief is the ultimate woo.
I also agree, everyone can be irrational. I used to smoke cigarettes, that’s irrational. I just spent $740 on a pair of shoes, that’s irrational. I’m sure I do hundreds of irrational things. Being irrational doesn’t necessarily mean that you have a mental illness or are woo.

.

Why then decide to label all relious belief "mental illness" whilst accepting that ones' own irrationality is nothing of the kind? Surely you can see the poverty of such an in group/ out group mentality? Religious belief is a spectrum order, from a nebulous feeling that there is something more than this, to strongly held convictions that there is a God, and from believing that someone is listening to knowing that God has spoken directly to you.

That some religous experience of the sort described throughout the ages of voices and visions may be attributed to forms of mental illness is a fair enough assesment, but the extrapolation to all religious belief is absurd - one might even say a little crazy :)

(that is to say, unless one can explain a clear delineation between religious belief and irrationality, then we are all "mentally ill" - which given as the diagnosis is reliant upon comparison from a norm renders the term wholly redundant.)

[Big Les]

I think andyandy is taking issue with the characterisation/ad hom nature of putting the religious goons in a box marked "mental". Much as their brand of irrationality is further along the spectrum than, say, me buying Transformers toys aged 28, you can't really characterise it as "mental illness". Doesn't mean it isn't a waste of everyone's time, worth fighting against, and even dangerous. But labels like that are quite specific. It's like the cry of "child abuse" or the use of the term "denier" to demonise the conspiracy theorists. Some of them might well actually fit the description, but we can't know that for sure, and we can't assume that they all are. Tempting though it may be, and accurate though it may seem. We need to be careful of our terminology and not resort to propaganda tactics. The goons (a nice, neutral term!) are usually eminently debunkable - tiring though it may be, giving them enough rope to hang themselves is preferable IMO to slinging insults and labels. Not that I don't do it myself sometimes, but I recognise that I probably shouldn't.

[Roboramma]

If you want me to respect your faith that there is no God,
Then you must also respect my faith that there is a God.

If you do not respect my faith,
Then there is no reason for me to respect yours.

It's just that simple.
The first point that I want to make has already been made - I don't have faith that there's no god. I just find it very (very) likely. I may have made an erroneous conclusion, but its a conclusion I made based on the evidence that I have available, and I'm certainly willing to alter it if new evidence comes to light.

That said, personally I do respect your faith, at least in the way that I think you mean. I respect your right to have it. I can still respect you as a person in spite of the fact that you have it (but it is in spite of).

What I don't respect is the faith itself. I think that the idea that it's a useful way to find out about what is is simply false. And when someone suggests to me that is is a useful way to find about about the real world, I'll challenge them on it.

My view is that we should respect religious beliefs only as much as we would respect other beliefs. I can still respect you as a person and yet say that some of the things you believe are ridiculous. I think more of us should point out what we find ridiculous or wrong about religion, in spite of the fact that those who hold those beliefs might have their feelings hurt.

[modecom]

Why then decide to label all relious belief "mental illness" whilst accepting that ones' own irrationality is nothing of the kind? Surely you can see the poverty of such an in group/ out group mentality? Religious belief is a spectrum order, from a nebulous feeling that there is something more than this, to strongly held convictions that there is a God, and from believing that someone is listening to knowing that God has spoken directly to you.

That some religous experience of the sort described throughout the ages of voices and visions may be attributed to forms of mental illness is a fair enough assesment, but the extrapolation to all religious belief is absurd - one might even say a little crazy :)

(that is to say, unless one can explain a clear delineation between religious belief and irrationality, then we are all "mentally ill" - which given as the diagnosis is reliant upon comparison from a norm renders the term wholly redundant.)


C’mon andyandy, you know that a belief in an invisible imaginary being is in no way comparable to being irrational for spending too much $$ on some shoes.

However, I am rational enough to agree with you, given the wide spectrum you have used; it would be foolish to call all religious belief a mental illness.

[modecom]

I think andyandy is taking issue with the characterisation/ad hom nature of putting the religious goons in a box marked "mental". Much as their brand of irrationality is further along the spectrum than, say, me buying Transformers toys aged 28, you can't really characterise it as "mental illness". Doesn't mean it isn't a waste of everyone's time, worth fighting against, and even dangerous. But labels like that are quite specific. It's like the cry of "child abuse" or the use of the term "denier" to demonise the conspiracy theorists. Some of them might well actually fit the description, but we can't know that for sure, and we can't assume that they all are. Tempting though it may be, and accurate though it may seem. We need to be careful of our terminology and not resort to propaganda tactics. The goons (a nice, neutral term!) are usually eminently debunkable - tiring though it may be, giving them enough rope to hang themselves is preferable IMO to slinging insults and labels. Not that I don't do it myself sometimes, but I recognise that I probably shouldn't.


Great post Big Les, thanks.

[modecom]

I think andyandy is taking issue with the characterisation/ad hom nature of putting the religious goons in a box marked "mental". Much as their brand of irrationality is further along the spectrum than, say, me buying Transformers toys aged 28, you can't really characterise it as "mental illness". Doesn't mean it isn't a waste of everyone's time, worth fighting against, and even dangerous. But labels like that are quite specific. It's like the cry of "child abuse" or the use of the term "denier" to demonise the conspiracy theorists. Some of them might well actually fit the description, but we can't know that for sure, and we can't assume that they all are. Tempting though it may be, and accurate though it may seem. We need to be careful of our terminology and not resort to propaganda tactics. The goons (a nice, neutral term!) are usually eminently debunkable - tiring though it may be, giving them enough rope to hang themselves is preferable IMO to slinging insults and labels. Not that I don't do it myself sometimes, but I recognise that I probably shouldn't.

On a second consideration though, calling religious people “goons” is downright disrespectful to Spike Milligan & Co.:)

[Checkmite]

Faith doesn't deserve respect, I think. People deserve respect, though. Unless they actually do something which makes them not-respectable.

[Elind]

That was a well spoken commentary, but one wonders if he made it after reading Dawkins or Hitchens first, as both have been saying pretty much exactly the same thing for some time, in print and elsewhere.

[Big Les]

On a second consideration though, calling religious people “goons” is downright disrespectful to Spike Milligan & Co.:)

Point taken! How about "numpties" instead?

[Big Les]

Just a bump to say that I saw Marcus Brigstocke's latest routine last night, and a sizable chunk (10-15 mins?) was devoted to a tweaked (and more savage) version of the Radio 4 piece linked further up this thread. He actually asked for a show of atheist hands and observed that although he didn't think "we" should have a common voice as such, as individuals we should speak up more, and not act so surprised when we meet another atheist. He had a dig at the agnostics in the room too as being bet-hedging rule 10s :D