Atheism in the US

[mummymonkey]

Looking in from the outside, the US appears to be an especially religious and God fearing country. Do you think that, in the US, atheism is still associated with the Soviet Union (and communism in general), and if so, has this affected the way atheism and atheists are viewed?

[elliotfc]

Originally posted by mummymonkey
Looking in from the outside, the US appears to be an especially religious and God fearing country. Do you think that, in the US, atheism is still associated with the Soviet Union (and communism in general), and if so, has this affected the way atheism and atheists are viewed?

I don't think there is a common perspective.

Easy experiment. Go up to an "educated" person, mutter the phrase EVIL EMPIRE, and watch the response.

I'm sure millions of people believe that because USSR socialism was atheistic, that it was bound to find its nook on the ashheap of history in short order.

I'm sure millions of people believe that USSR socialism failed not because of atheism, but because of centralized power issues and lack of cooperation and constant antagonism with the US.

Looking at the headlines, Russia is no more or no less "godly" than she was 50 years ago. It may actually be worse today. Yes, the Eastern-rite churches have reopened, but they seem to have no effect on, at least, the youth. The country appears to have no moral center.

-Elliot

[UnrepentantSinner]

Yes and yes.

Our cause, while she did some good, was harmed in many ways by Madylin Murray O'Hare. Her angry, God-Hating tone tarnished an image already associated with "Godless Communism."

There's also a certain ignorance in American Christians (especially the fundamentalists) about what it means and what it does not mean to be an atheist. Unfortunately they're too numerous for me to list. :)

You'd be surprised at how well received we are these days however, perhaps some progress is being made.

[elliotfc]

Originally posted by UnrepentantSinner
You'd be surprised at how well received we are these days however, perhaps some progress is being made. [/B]

Agreed. I don't think that there is an association made between atheism and socialism/communism. On the contrary, most vocal atheists appear to be very libertarian (at least the one's you see on the talking heads shows).

-Elliot

[Dragonrock]

Originally posted by elliotfc
On the contrary, most vocal atheists appear to be very libertarian (at least the one's you see on the talking heads shows).

-Elliot

From what I've seen, atheists on this board tend to be more libertarian. We have our right wing and left wing groups, but a majority seem to follow the "leave me alone and I'll leave you alone" philosophy that most libertarians have.

[Nyarlathotep]

I think it is still a common association. I used to post on al.atheism and it seemed that nary a day would go by that some religious type wouldn't say something to the effect of "Atheism is bad because Stalin & Pol Pot were atheist and look what they did"

[Gulliamo]

This may be in part because we have a noticeable lack of Atheist elected officials and remarkably few Atheist Activist celebrities (present company excluded;) )

[elliotfc]

Originally posted by Nyarlathotep
I think it is still a common association. I used to post on al.atheism and it seemed that nary a day would go by that some religious type wouldn't say something to the effect of "Atheism is bad because Stalin & Pol Pot were atheist and look what they did"

Now you know how I feel, everybody reminding me about the Inquisition and the Crusades all the time. However it has only made me stronger, and when a week goes by without burning witches at the stake being brought up I feel a bit awkward, even lonely.

-Elliot

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by elliotfc

Looking at the headlines, Russia is no more or no less "godly" than she was 50 years ago. It may actually be worse today. Yes, the Eastern-rite churches have reopened, but they seem to have no effect on, at least, the youth. The country appears to have no moral center.

-Elliot

Hi Elliot, how do you say that, because I have a quite different opinion, I see the students from Russia that come to learn Greek and History in Athens University or the exchange students that come to the School of Law and the first thing they ask is whether the University provides any facilities to practice their religion or not.... Funny because in every corner of Athens there is an Orthodox Church. Anyway.

I have another question for everybody.

How many are those fundamentalists in the States, not in numbers but in percentages. I have always had the idea that fundamentalists are marginal groups. Is this correct?

[Nyarlathotep]

Originally posted by elliotfc


Now you know how I feel, everybody reminding me about the Inquisition and the Crusades all the time. However it has only made me stronger, and when a week goes by without burning witches at the stake being brought up I feel a bit awkward, even lonely.

-Elliot

It's a stupid argument no matter which side uses it, whichis why I generally only bring up the Inquisition et. al. when someone else brings up Stalin or Pol Pot, and even then only to show the other person that neither side has cornered the market on barbarism

[Nyarlathotep]

Originally posted by Cleopatra



How many are those fundamentalists in the States, not in numbers but in percentages. I have always had the idea that fundamentalists are marginal groups. Is this correct?

I couldn't give percentages because one would first have to settle on a precise definition of 'Fundamentalist', which is not as easy as it sounds. But just based on what I have seen, their numbers aren't huge but they are sufficient in number to be politically powerful so they aren't marginal either.

[elliotfc]

Originally posted by Cleopatra

Hi Elliot, how do you say that, because I have a quite different opinion, I see the students from Russia that come to learn Greek and History in Athens University or the exchange students that come to the School of Law and the first thing they ask is whether the University provides any facilities to practice their religion or not.... Funny because in every corner of Athens there is an Orthodox Church. Anyway.

Well I guess several reasons.

First, I scan online Pravda everyday (I know, I know, I know)...

Second, I look at increased crime rates, suicide rates, and decreased birth rates.

Third, their pop culture is hedonistic to an extreme.

Fourth, apparently drug usage and addiction has exploded since the fall of communism.

I admit that I may be focusing too much on what the media says, and since I don't know any Russian youth personally...

How many are those fundamentalists in the States, not in numbers but in percentages. I have always had the idea that fundamentalists are marginal groups. Is this correct?

Biblical fundamentalists make up between 10%-20% of the country, depending on your standards. Evangelical Christian are closer to 10%, and Bible-believers (I'll simply define that as people who accept the Genesis account of creation) are closer to 20%. I base this on my study of religion, and I am merely reflecting the anthrolpological consensus, I'm sure I can trot our verification etc.

Calling them a marginal group may be a misnomer because they tend to be very interested in sharing their ideas with others. That's the most charitable way of putting it, I think. ;)

-Elliot

[elliotfc]

Originally posted by Nyarlathotep


It's a stupid argument no matter which side uses it, whichis why I generally only bring up the Inquisition et. al. when someone else brings up Stalin or Pol Pot, and even then only to show the other person that neither side has cornered the market on barbarism

Hey...THAT'S MY STRATEGY! Grrr, you atheists co-opt everything...

-Elliot

[elliotfc]

Originally posted by Nyarlathotep


I couldn't give percentages because one would first have to settle on a precise definition of 'Fundamentalist', which is not as easy as it sounds. But just based on what I have seen, their numbers aren't huge but they are sufficient in number to be politically powerful so they aren't marginal either.

Exactly. Kind of like the California recall thing...a sufficient number well short of a majority can be quite effective.

-Elliot

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by elliotfc


Well I guess several reasons.

First, I scan online Pravda everyday (I know, I know, I know)...

Ok ok, the 200 Russian students we have every year maybe do not represent the majority of the Russian youth BUT Elliot , it gives a message!!! ;)

Biblical fundamentalists make up between 10%-20% of the country, depending on your standards

I was having the Creationists in my mind.

Calling them a marginal group may be a misnomer because they tend to be very interested in sharing their ideas with others. That's the most charitable way of putting it, I think. ;)

-Elliot

They are few but they are very vocal, maybe this is a better way to describe them.

[Nyarlathotep]

Originally posted by elliotfc


Exactly. Kind of like the California recall thing...a sufficient number well short of a majority can be quite effective.

-Elliot

Yep. Fundamentalists, for all of their faults, are VERY well organized politically and, in my opinion, tend to be able to focus very well on a handful of key issues that concern them. This enables them to wield influence far beyond that their their number would indicate. I think this is because they hold enough beliefs in common that their political views will tend to be very similar. At least they will be similar enough to make them a cohesive unit come election time.

Atheists on the otherhand, have it rougher. Since ours is really a non-belief without any single unifying force, our politics tend to be all over the board. This makes politically organizing atheists a task akin to herding cats.

[Nyarlathotep]

Originally posted by Cleopatra

I was having the Creationists in my mind.
.

Creationists are easier to define. I can't speak with authority but I recall seeing a statistic that some 70% (I am not sure of the exact number) of Americans believe the creation story in the bible to be literally true.

[Jet Grind]

Originally posted by Nyarlathotep
Creationists are easier to define. I can't speak with authority but I recall seeing a statistic that some 70% (I am not sure of the exact number) of Americans believe the creation story in the bible to be literally true.

The statistics that I've seen put that number at only 36%. It's still way too high, but things aren't so bad here the nearly 3/4 of the population rejects basic science.

Anyway, about atheism being associated with communism/socialism. I still think that the average american still views atheists like that. It's mostly due to the conservative propaganda machine perpetuating the image of the "evil secularists who want to kick God off the earth and push communism down our throats" (if you want to see such a thing in action, just watch Bill O'Riely or listen to "Dr." Laura). All in all, I think progress is being made. Not enough of course, but we're still getting somewhere.

[Chanileslie]

Originally posted by Nyarlathotep
I think it is still a common association. I used to post on al.atheism and it seemed that nary a day would go by that some religious type wouldn't say something to the effect of "Atheism is bad because Stalin & Pol Pot were atheist and look what they did"

You know, I believe mentioning Stalin and/or Pol Pot is rather like mentioning Hilter, at that point all rational conversation is at an end.

[Nyarlathotep]

Originally posted by Chanileslie


You know, I believe mentioning Stalin and/or Pol Pot is rather like mentioning Hilter, at that point all rational conversation is at an end.

Yep, Godwins law ought to extend to them, too.

[Nyarlathotep]

Originally posted by Jet Grind


The statistics that I've seen put that number at only 36%. It's still way too high, but things aren't so bad here the nearly 3/4 of the population rejects basic science.

Anyway, about atheism being associated with communism/socialism. I still think that the average american still views atheists like that. It's mostly due to the conservative propaganda machine perpetuating the image of the "evil secularists who want to kick God off the earth and push communism down our throats" (if you want to see such a thing in action, just watch Bill O'Riely or listen to "Dr." Laura). All in all, I think progress is being made. Not enough of course, but we're still getting somewhere.

I'll have to go digging around to see where I got that 70% number from. But it was something along the lines of 3/4 americans reject basic science. I only remember because it mae me cringe when I heard it.

[Azathoth]

I think atheism is definitely still associated with communism in the minds of many Americans.

As for some of the later questions, a recent poll (http://www.pbs.org/wnet/religionandethics/week534/specialreport.html) found that 46% of Americans self-identified as born-again. And 24% as evangelical Christian. (I don't think these were mutually exclusive choices)

[elliotfc]

Originally posted by Nyarlathotep


Creationists are easier to define. I can't speak with authority but I recall seeing a statistic that some 70% (I am not sure of the exact number) of Americans believe the creation story in the bible to be literally true.

Wow.

I'd be shocked if that is exactly true. Absolutely shocked. It may depend on how the question is phrased of course. If anybody would have me believe that, say, more than 1 out of 3 Americans are creationists I'd ask for specific polls.

Give me a couple of weeks and I know I can get my hands on some specific polls. For now, religioustolerance.org will have to do. Read the whole webpage to get some interesting stuff.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/ev_publi.htm

-Elliot

[elliotfc]

Originally posted by Cleopatra

Ok ok, the 200 Russian students we have every year maybe do not represent the majority of the Russian youth BUT Elliot , it gives a message!!! ;)

Well if they got the heck out of Russia, even for a year or so, maybe they are smarter/holier than the average Russian youth.

:)

-Elliot

[Nyarlathotep]

Originally posted by elliotfc


Wow.

I'd be shocked if that is exactly true. Absolutely shocked. It may depend on how the question is phrased of course. If anybody would have me believe that, say, more than 1 out of 3 Americans are creationists I'd ask for specific polls.

Give me a couple of weeks and I know I can get my hands on some specific polls. For now, religioustolerance.org will have to do. Read the whole webpage to get some interesting stuff.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/ev_publi.htm

-Elliot

I suppose that the way you phrase the question can have a lot to do with it. For example, looking at the site you posted it has 87% of the population beliving in either creation or theistic evolution, I don't think it would take much of a tweaking of the wording to come up with the 70% I remember seeing.

[Nyarlathotep]

Doing a little bit of looking around I remember where I got the 70% nuber from. It wasn't the number of people who believe in literal creationism, which according to this poll was 44% (still an unbelievably large number) it was the number of Americans who belive creationism should be taught in public school. I apologize for the confusion.

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/science/DailyNews/evolutionviews990816.html

[elliotfc]

Originally posted by Nyarlathotep
Doing a little bit of looking around I remember where I got the 70% nuber from. It wasn't the number of people who believe in literal creationism, which according to this poll was 44% (still an unbelievably large number) it was the number of Americans who belive creationism should be taught in public school. I apologize for the confusion.

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/science/DailyNews/evolutionviews990816.html

Personally, I do not think creationism should be taught in public schools...

(wait for it...)





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But guess what, IT IS!

I've taken maybe 10 science courses in high school/college which either referenced evolution or taught evolution. In each course, creationism was mentioned and talked about. Most recently I took a course in human evolution, and we spent an entire class period talking about creationism.

So when people debate whether or not creationism should be taught, I'm not sure what the hell they are talking about. It's like the 800 pound elephant that's standing there whenever evolution is talked about. Creationism can't be ignored, and it isn't. It always gets a mention, and a biased mention at that.

If I'm in a class, I don't want a detailed description and explanation of creationism. I also don't want biased put-downs or filmsy back-hands. I'd prefer it to be completley ignored. But I have yet to see that in my experience. Maybe things are different in Kansas, but I've been in 3 different east coast states now, so I don't get it.

I'd like evolution to be emphasized as THEORY instead of FACT but that's tilting at windmills.

Why any fundamentalist would want a science teacher teaching evolution is beyond me. That's like having a basketball player teach you how to create webpages.

-Elliot

[EdipisReks]

i've never been in a science class that mentioned creationism.

[elliotfc]

Originally posted by EdipisReks
i've never been in a science class that mentioned creationism.

Let's see...two high schools (Portage Northern, KAMSC), three courses at Boston College, four at U of Michigan, and two at Stony Brook where I am now. Off the top of my head, ten classes have mentioned creationism, and one of them was a physics class.

It has to do with the teacher. If the teacher wants to mention creationism, he/she will. Or, it can come up in class discussion. It even gets mentioned as an aside in any biology textbook I've ever seen.

-Elliot

[Yahzi]

Originally posted by elliotfc
I'd like evolution to be emphasized as THEORY instead of FACT but that's tilting at windmills.
Would you like gravity emphasized as theory instead of fact? Evolution is on as solid a basis as gravity, continental drift, or the germ theory of disease.

Why any fundamentalist would want a science teacher teaching evolution is beyond me. That's like having a basketball player teach you how to create webpages.

Credit due where credit is due. This is a postively insightful comment.

The problem, of course, is that the fundies aren't pushing for creationism to be taught so much as they want evolution to not be taught. Their goal isn't really the reform of science, but rather the ending of its hegemony of truth.

[Gulliamo]

Originally posted by elliotfc


Let's see...two high schools (Portage Northern, KAMSC), three courses at Boston College, four at U of Michigan, and two at Stony Brook where I am now. Off the top of my head, ten classes have mentioned creationism, and one of them was a physics class.

It has to do with the teacher. If the teacher wants to mention creationism, he/she will. Or, it can come up in class discussion. It even gets mentioned as an aside in any biology textbook I've ever seen.

-Elliot

Were those parochial high schools?

[elliotfc]

Originally posted by Yahzi
Would you like gravity emphasized as theory instead of fact? Evolution is on as solid a basis as gravity, continental drift, or the germ theory of disease.

No, because I see gravity all the time. We see the continents drift. We see species evolve, but we don't see abiogenesis.

The problem, of course, is that the fundies aren't pushing for creationism to be taught so much as they want evolution to not be taught. Their goal isn't really the reform of science, but rather the ending of its hegemony of truth.

You might be right about that. Clearly they are trying to get sympathy with the *equal time* tactic.

However, surely they could also go the other route, and demand that science discard teaching an unproven and untestable theory.

-Elliot

[elliotfc]

Originally posted by Gulliamo


Were those parochial high schools?

No.

I've been to four high schools (long story). I took biology at a Jesuit high school freshman year, but I can not remember if creationism was mentioned or not. It probably was. I can't recall for certain.

Sophomore year I moved to Michigan, went to another Catholic school (which sucked) and took Chemistry there, and creationism was never mentioned.

Transferred to another high school (public) for junior and senior year, and also started attending a publically and privately funded math/science magnet school. In four courses those two years creationism was discussed in the classroom. Based on that I reckon that creationism is discussed in a whole slew of classrooms. Not in the way fundamentalists would like it to be discussed, but definitely discussed.

-Elliot

[Tormac]

Just as a side note abiogenesis is not part of the theory of evolution.

The scientific search for the origins of life is a separate discipline. Evolution assumes that life already exists, and evolves to different forms. It does not try to explain an initial origin.

The site http://www.talkorigins.org might be useful to explain what the theory of evolution is and is not.

[Tormac]

The thing that has always amused me about the attempts to get creationism to be taught in school is that it is assumed that the Christian version of creationism is the one that will be taught.

I'd love to see the uproar made by fundamentalists the day that the creation myths of a different religion were taught alongside evolution.


Who is the true creator? God?, Dagda?, The Raven?, Geb?, Odin?, <insert paga creation myth here> Talk about opening a pandora's box.

[Nyarlathotep]

Originally posted by Tormac
The thing that has always amused me about the attempts to get creationism to be taught in school is that it is assumed that the Christian version of creationism is the one that will be taught.

I'd love to see the uproar made by fundamentalists the day that the creation myths of a different religion were taught alongside evolution.


Who is the true creator? God?, Dagda?, The Raven?, Geb?, Odin?, <insert paga creation myth here> Talk about opening a pandora's box.

I think a lot of fundamentalists make similar assumptions about most of the things that they want forced onto schools. For example, many of the proponents of school prayer would have hysterics if that prayer were some sort of invocation led by a Wiccan.

This is one of the best reasons to keep religion OUT of school, it's just plain not practical to please everyone and any attempt to please anyone will be totally unacceptable to others.