Was Jesus such an idiot?

[Oliver]

I usually don't lose my way into the dark ages - but since I'm christian, too, I wonder why many Christians have no problems with violence and oppression if this happens in the name of the Bible.

Here are some examples for what I mean by that:

- Free choice
- Free sex for adults
- Gay marriage
- Free religions other than mine
- War
- Death penalty
- and some other issues...

Now I'm not interested in discussing the single issues but I wonder why the Christian fundies are okay with these Issues and believing in a pretty liberal Jesus at the same time because I can't imagine that Jesus would:

- Deny free choice if the child may be physically and/or mental retarded
- Deny free Sex if the people involved love each other
- Deny Gay Marriage if the people love each other
- Oppress Religions just because they have Fundies, too.
- Accept war for allegedly higher reasons
- Accept the death of one of his sheep ignoring the issue of forgiveness

Now I know that some people love to switch to the good ol testament to find the fitting explanation, but unfortunately you can't have it both ways: "Either you're with Jesus - or you're with the terrorists", wrong?

PS: I'm not very interested to be too active in this thread because it's meant to understand the Americans who contradict themselves regarding this issue.

[Tricky]

I'm not very interested to be too active in this thread because it's meant to understand the Americans who contradict themselves regarding this issue.
Then don't waste our time. Speaking as only one American, I'm not going to bother to attack this army of straw men if you have no interest in defending it.

[Lanzy]

Jesus who?

[Gord_in_Toronto]

I can't imagine that Jesus would:

You should upgrade to Imagination 2.6. Don't forget to install the Service Packs.

:boggled:

[Hourglassmemory]

The thing with Jesus was that, if he existed, he was loved by everyone and he loved everyone, but still that doesn't mean he wasn't an idiot.

It's like today's new age gurus. Yes, everybody enjoys their achievements and they're very nice and take care of ill people and have lots of fans and follwors who bow on their knews before them...but they're still stupid.

The bible is so contradictory.
He's super powerful and likes you, so everything you don't agree with will have to be his mysterious ways.
His love directly affects you but when he hates you...oh....it's just this very mysterious and humanly incomprehensible kind of love.
It's a like a husband beating his wife.

Religion, New Age Beliefs and Conspiracy theories are by nature, contradictory and immune to critical scrutiny which leads to either paranoia, martyrdom or thickheadeness.

[Mark]

Jesus who?

Gonzales. He runs an auto parts store near me.

[kerikiwi]

I can't imagine that Jesus would:


Do you base your imaginings on your own independent thoughts, or on what the bible says,ie someone else's imaginings?

[Tombolian]

The thing with Jesus was that, if he existed, he was loved by everyone and he loved everyone

Yeah, that's why, so it is written, they killed him :boggled:

[ned flandas]

The thing with Jesus was that, if he existed, he was loved by everyone and he loved everyone, but still that doesn't mean he wasn't an idiot..

I'm not so sure the pharisees loved him. Especially when he called them hypocrites...

[ned flandas]

The bible is so contradictory.
He's super powerful and likes you, so everything you don't agree with will have to be his mysterious ways.
His love directly affects you but when he hates you...oh....it's just this very mysterious and humanly incomprehensible kind of love.
It's a like a husband beating his wife.

:confused: :confused:

please explain

[Hourglassmemory]

Well, the first part is that, because Jesus was so good and had powers and consequently everything he said became a sort of authoritative statement of unshakable truth about reality, people perceived him as such, any statement coming from him that they didn't agree with, it would only have one explanation: " *shrug* it must be his mysterious, incomprehensible wisdom only obtainable in the glorious, Heaven the house of the Lord our God."

Jesus is only good, he cannot be bad. If he shows you he loves you...like giving you advice and hugging you and playing with your children and the sheep and cloning loafs of bread for the ex-blind poor people, then sure he's a lovely individual.
If he believes gays should be stoned and throws pigs into a precipice and sees women as inferior and calls people names, it must also be love, but a humanly incomprehensible kind of love.

The religious fundamentalists twist and break everything so it fits their already dogmatic views of who Jesus Christ was.

That's what I was trying to say...

And those who say that Jesus wasn't perfect...then why call him divine? Because he said so, after spending his childhood and teenage years in mosks and in places where people only talked about the messiah?

[ned flandas]

the religious fundamantalists twist and break everything so it fits their already dogmatic views of who jesus christ was.

That's what I was trying to say...

Ah ok

I sort of get you.

The pharisees at the time of Jesus also twisted their understanding of God to serve them too. Jesus wasn't very keen on that.

[Wowbagger]

I think this is a somewhat valid issue Oliver is raising: Jesus was clearly very liberal. So, why are his most ardent followers so dang conservative?

I think the answer is that most of his ardent followers are not really interested in following Jesus, but rather their own ideological ideals; and they choose to twist Jesus into their God-of-Choice, more out their cultural heritage, than anything else.

If there was no concept of Jesus, I think fundies would still behave essentially the same way. They would merely tack their ideals onto something else, either another Biblical figure, or some other character that could have been invented (even if that character was also supposed to be liberal).

It is similar to the reason Al Queda claims they are Islamic Fundamentalists, but most Christians clearly do not take it to the same hideous extreme.
The real fundamentals of Islam are quite different from what terrorists claim. They are merely latching their ideologies onto a framework they adopted through their heritage.

One piece of evidence we have to support my claim, is in the form of Unitarian Universalism. Many of their congregations study the philosophies of Jesus, but do not believe he was really the son of God or anything else of divine nature. As a result, most of them are quite liberal.

[ned flandas]

I think this is a somewhat valid issue Oliver is raising: Jesus was clearly very liberal. So, why are his most ardent followers so dang conservative?

What makes you say that Jesus was very liberal?

[Wowbagger]

What makes you say that Jesus was very liberal?
Someone who had studied the Bible more carefully* might be able to answer this question better, but this is what I understand:

For the most part, Jesus could not care less what other people did, as long as they kept the commandments, to a certain minimal degree. He seemed to be very forgiving to people who did not devote every waking moment to such endeavors. He never seems to interfere with anyone's private life. And, he even told everyone to leave all the non-followers alone.

Jesus does not come off as a typical absolutist ideologist. He had ideals, but didn't push them as if he had any impunity.

(*my own "study" of it was mostly speed-reading.)

[Tricky]

What makes you say that Jesus was very liberal?
Against the established order? Check.
Against government establishment of religion? Check.
Free love? Check
Share the wealth? Check
Against capital punishment? Check
Letting women join traditionally men's groups? Check
Anti-violence? Check
Kissing guys? Check
Long hair and sandals? Check.

[triadboy]

I've always heard Jesus was 'liberal'. But now I think Jesus was an apocalyptic preacher. The end of the world was coming very soon to him and he traveled around telling people that. (The Son Of Man was coming; people would witness it in their lifetimes.) I believe this is the basic kernal of insight we have describing the 'real' Jesus.

The miracles, birth, and death are stories added on.

[Ladewig]

Now I'm not interested in discussing the single issues but I wonder why the Christian fundies are okay with these Issues and believing in a pretty liberal Jesus at the same time because I can't imagine that Jesus would:

- Deny free choice if the child may be physically and/or mental retarded
- Deny free Sex if the people involved love each other
- Deny Gay Marriage if the people love each other
- Oppress Religions just because they have Fundies, too.
- Accept war for allegedly higher reasons
- Accept the death of one of his sheep ignoring the issue of forgiveness


Are there specific Bible verses that lead you to these conclusions? Actually, I think conclusions might be too strong a word. That lead you to these speculations?

[kmortis]

Against the established order? Check.
Against government establishment of religion? Check.
Free love? Check
Share the wealth? Check
Against capital punishment? Check
Letting women join traditionally men's groups? Check
Anti-violence? Check
Kissing guys? Check
Long hair and sandals? Check.
You forgot:
Funky smells - Check.
They hadn't invented the shower yet, Tricky.

Although, he wasn't totally anti-establishmentarian. That whole "give unto Cesear what is Cesear" bit throws that in the dustbin.

And I don't think I'd classify Jesus's message as "free love" either. "Compassionate" maybe, but not "Free Love".

And anti-violence is RIGHT OUT. "I have come to turn brother against brother...." sound familiar?

[Zep]

And he was Jewish. Don't forget that!

[Ladewig]

Although, he wasn't totally anti-establishmentarian. That whole "give unto Cesear what is Cesear" bit throws that in the dustbin.


Ah, but can we conclude that He was antidisestablishmentarian?

[you did ask for it]

[strathmeyer]

:confused: :confused:

please explain

If you're not going to take the time to read the Holy Bible, why should we believe you're going to take the time to have a proper discussion about the subject?

[Jackalgirl]

PS: I'm not very interested to be too active in this thread because it's meant to understand the Americans who contradict themselves regarding this issue.

Oliver, are you really intending to make a blanket statement against a whole, not-really-all-that-homogenous society like this?

Are you implying that, say, Germans don't contradict themselves regarding this issue? Are there no groups in Germany that make use of religion, especially versions of Christian religion, to promote conservative issues?

What about Italy? There's this guy there...what's his name? Benedict something or other. Wears a funny hat. Does he not promote the same contradictions you mention in your OP?

Why does everything have to work off of the assumption that us Americans are just such horrible, horrible people?

[SezMe]

PS: I'm not very interested to be too active in this thread because it's meant to understand the Americans who contradict themselves regarding this issue.
Total crap. It's just another thread for you to claim to want to understand Americans while completely ignoring the responses you get.

If you're a Christian, Oliver, I strongly suggest you think seriously about the "mote in the eye" parable.

[The Atheist]

I think this is a somewhat valid issue Oliver is raising: Jesus was clearly very liberal. So, why are his most ardent followers so dang conservative?

I think the answer is that most of his ardent followers are not really interested in following Jesus, but rather their own ideological ideals; and they choose to twist Jesus into their God-of-Choice, more out their cultural heritage, than anything else.

Marvellous post!

I often mention to christians that Jesus love for truth and respect and hatred of avarice would have him sending many so-called "pastors" on the Highway to Hell. (But without Richie Blackmore!)

PS: I'm not very interested to be too active in this thread because it's meant to understand the Americans who contradict themselves regarding this issue.

Given that Americans who contradict themselves regarding Jesus' philosophies are generally fundie christians, maybe you'd be better off asking this question at a fundy christian site?

In case you hadn't noticed, there aren't many of them here and once KK and Amy Wilson have posted, you've done your dash, mate.

Jesus does not come off as a typical absolutist ideologist. He had ideals, but didn't push them as if he had any impunity.

Well, I'm not sure I can agree with this quite as much. He did tell people that if they didn't obey the commandments and honour his old man, god, they were going to the hot place. The carrot of everlasting life was on the other side, so on those two promises, we could have him for both fraud (heaven) and extortion (hell).

I like what Jesus says about morality and his [our] fellow man, but when the bloke starts carping on about atheists being sent to hell for merely disbelieving in his old man, no matter how pious they be, I think it's time to go for the pinch of salt.

(*my own "study" of it was mostly speed-reading.)

I don't blame you, it's an awful book. If I were the pope, I'd be going for a re-write.

And he was Jewish. Don't forget that!

My favourite! I can think of blokes at Stormfront who'd actually do you physical harm for saying that; they are stark, raving nutters and will not even begin to allow the hint of speculation to be shown that Jesus was not Jewish. They're right anyway, how could he be Jewish? He was God-ish!

(No Jewish semen were harmed during this production.)

[Father Dagon]

Jesus vs. Jeezus (http://www.flickr.com/photos/terrancedc/108130278)

[lionking]

Am I missing something here? Why is everyone talking as if Jesus actually existed? I was baptised and brought up a Catholic, but from what I have read I do not see convincing evidence for his actual existence. I know some will say that it is the idea of Jesus that is important, but so much is invested in the cult of his personality, his divinity etc that his non-existence would be a mortal blow to christanity. Come on, this is a skeptical forum. Where is the proff of Jesus?

[Georg]

I often mention to christians that Jesus love for truth and respect and hatred of avarice would have him sending many so-called "pastors" on the Highway to Hell. (But without Richie Blackmore!)


[nitpick] Psssst....... Ritchie Blackmore was the guitar player of Deep Purple. The song “Highway to Hell” is of AC/DC, you know, that brilliant Australian Hardrock Combo. The guitar players of AC/DC are Angus and Malcolm Young, their former singer who went on the “Highway” after choking (he was vomiting after a few drinks too many) was Bon Scott. [\nitpick]

And I agree with lionking that the whole question is moot as long as nobody proves that J-man even existed. I´m a friend of fantasy writings myself but do not see much sense in discussing the moral values of Gandalf and the lot either, except as an exercise in mental masturbation. Oh, that´s what a lot of this forum is about? Never mind........

[H3LL]

Now I know that some people love to switch to the good ol testament to find the fitting explanation, but unfortunately you can't have it both ways: "Either you're with Jesus - or you're with the terrorists", wrong?

Are you yet another one that weasels away the horrors of the OT by taking dishonest refuge in the NT.

So I have to repeat a post:

To just use NT only, one must be either a liar or a compulsive bible-cherry-picker to fit whatever one happens to think.

The 10 commandments (whichever you pick) are not in the New Testament.

In the New Testament, Abraham is referred to 68 times, the ancient Israelites are mentioned 73 times, Jacob 26 times, Issac 20 times, Elijah 29 times, Isiah 22 times, Noah 8 times, King David is mentioned 58 times. The name Moses appears 80 times!

Also, Jesus said "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I come not to destroy, but to fulfil." Matthew 5:17. Therefore, Jesus came to fulfil Old Testament Law.

"Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." Matthew 5:18. The Old testament laws are binding on everyone, forever.

"If you believe Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?" John 5:45. This says it all.

So, are your beliefs based only on the New Testament?

Would that be the bits that don't contain reference to Jesus, commandments, law, Abraham, Israelites, Jacob, Isaac, Isiah, Noah, King David or Moses?

There's not a lot left.

I wonder why the Christian fundies are okay with these Issues and believing in a pretty liberal Jesus at the same time because I can't imagine that Jesus would:

- Deny free choice if the child may be physically and/or mental retarded
- Deny free Sex if the people involved love each other
- Deny Gay Marriage if the people love each other
- Oppress Religions just because they have Fundies, too.
- Accept war for allegedly higher reasons
- Accept the death of one of his sheep ignoring the issue of forgiveness



Wonder no more. The bible has the answer. Jesus is not nice.

He said:
"But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me."

.

[lionking]

[nitpick] Psssst....... Ritchie Blackmore was the guitar player of Deep Purple. The song “Highway to Hell” is of AC/DC, you know, that brilliant Australian Hardrock Combo. The guitar players of AC/DC are Angus and Malcolm Young, their former singer who went on the “Highway” after choking (he was vomiting after a few drinks too many) was Bon Scott. [\nitpick]

And I agree with lionking that the whole question is moot as long as nobody proves that J-man even existed. I´m a friend of fantasy writings myself but do not see much sense in discussing the moral values of Gandalf and the lot either, except as an exercise in mental masturbation. Oh, that´s what a lot of this forum is about? Never mind........
I missed that Georg and I'm an Aussie and all! And AC/DC is about as satanic as your average Methodist minister (well maybe that's opening a whole new can of worms.....)

[slingblade]

:confused: :confused:

please explain

I could. I've had both, and at the same time. Anecdotally, I can attest that they are truly the same kind of "love." It's why I'm an atheist now.

Unfortunately, you'd have to live a life similar to mine to understand. And, lucky you, you'll never have to.

[Civilized Worm]

Now I know that some people love to switch to the good ol testament to find the fitting explanation, but unfortunately you can't have it both ways: "Either you're with Jesus - or you're with the terrorists", wrong?


I think you'll find you have to have it both ways, you can't take the son and leave the father when they're THE SAME GUY. And you're right, Jesus' teaching do conflict with many of Yahweh's earlier commands, but that's probably because he wasn't actually the messiah.

[The Atheist]

[nitpick] Psssst....... Ritchie Blackmore was the guitar player of Deep Purple.

I am lmfao!

Shocking cock-up - I know all that and have done for a century or two. I have almost all of AC/DC's albums and three Deep Purple.

See what happens when you don't concentrate on every bit of a post? I would definitely have got Blackmore's Ritchie wrong, but I'll take the Fith on that, because we have a famous sportsman here Richie Blackmore, so the name probably looked right.

What an idiot! AC/DC totally ripped off Deep Purple!

[c4ts]

I wonder why many Christians have no problems with violence and oppression if this happens in the name of the Bible.
Who says they have no problems with these things?

[gtc]

except as an exercise in mental masturbation.

Well actual masturbation is a no-no according to the bible so mental masturbation is probably the best you can hope for in this thread.

[Damien Evans]

I'm not so sure the pharisees loved him. Especially when he called them hypocrites...

Which is funny because one of the historical theories on Jesus is that he was an extremist Pharisee

[Damien Evans]

Against the established order? Check.
Against government establishment of religion? Check.
Free love? Check
Share the wealth? Check
Against capital punishment? Check
Letting women join traditionally men's groups? Check
Anti-violence? Check
Kissing guys? Check
Long hair and sandals? Check.

So...

He was a hippie?;)

[Damien Evans]

I don't blame you, it's an awful book. If I were the pope, I'd be going for a re-write.


I dunno, it's got violence, bloodletting, genocide, incest, ethnic cleansing, apocalyptic preachers, prophecy, more violence, romance, regicide, crappy poetry, a big flood and an escape from slavery.

What more could you want in a book?

[Damien Evans]

Am I missing something here? Why is everyone talking as if Jesus actually existed? I was baptised and brought up a Catholic, but from what I have read I do not see convincing evidence for his actual existence. I know some will say that it is the idea of Jesus that is important, but so much is invested in the cult of his personality, his divinity etc that his non-existence would be a mortal blow to christanity. Come on, this is a skeptical forum. Where is the proff of Jesus?

I can think of many different ways to answer this.

Do you accept that Thermistocles the Athenian existed? (there is a point to this question)

[SomeGuy]

Who says they have no problems with these things?

Well there are obviously some who haven't... blowing up abortion clincs and the like.

[Georg]

I am lmfao!

Shocking cock-up - I know all that and have done for a century or two. I have almost all of AC/DC's albums and three Deep Purple.

See what happens when you don't concentrate on every bit of a post? I would definitely have got Blackmore's Ritchie wrong, but I'll take the Fith on that, because we have a famous sportsman here Richie Blackmore, so the name probably looked right.

What an idiot! AC/DC totally ripped off Deep Purple!


Since you are so occupied with your duties as a Grammar Stalin and you confessed your sins, you shall be forgiven........
Btw, shouldn´t that
I often mention to christians that Jesus love


actually look like this?

Jesus´ love



Not too sure about it since English isn´t my first language, but if that´s right, that would be the real cock-up for someone who calls himself “Grammar Stalin”, wouldn´t it? :D

[Georg]

I dunno, it's got violence, bloodletting, genocide, incest, ethnic cleansing, apocalyptic preachers, prophecy, more violence, romance, regicide, crappy poetry, a big flood and an escape from slavery.

What more could you want in a book?

Not much. A little disclaimer: “This book must not be seen as “Teh Truth ™” , it was only published for entertainment reasons” would do it for me…….

[Damien Evans]

Not much. A little disclaimer: “This book must not be seen as “Teh Truth ™” , it was only published for entertainment reasons” would do it for me…….

ah, but that would outrage the faithful...

Let's do it anyway:D

[lionking]

I can think of many different ways to answer this.

Do you accept that Thermistocles the Athenian existed? (there is a point to this question)
Well we share the same city! Please enlighten me about primary source documentary evidence of JC's existance. There are many people from that era, including John the Baptist, who most likely trod the earth. I am not convinced that Christ did. And I would like to think that he did.

[Oliver]

Are there specific Bible verses that lead you to these conclusions? Actually, I think conclusions might be too strong a word. That lead you to these speculations?


I base my conclusions on the ten commandments plus the descriptions about Jesus.

So while the old testament portrays an ignorant-dominant-bully-fundie-nut-God instead a wise, peaceful, lovely guy, the new Testament portrays a very liberal view about the world, including the 10 commandments and Jesus and the kind of nice guy he displays.

Now I fully understand if someone likes the Bully-type of God and believes in the old Testament, but what about the ones who really believe in Jesus? How are they able to switch between liberal Jesus in NT and "To hell with you, bloody Fool"-God in OT whenever it fit's into their current mood?

Personally I like the Jesus-type of Guy, being open-minded and representing the good side of the world. So the Guy in the OT doesn't make sense at all - especially regarding the 10 C.

You simply cannot have it both ways. Either you respect the OT or Jesus and the 10 commandments.

So the question was pointed at the Jesus plus Anti-Jesus (OT) guys out there - switching back and forth between OT & NT just as they please.

[Damien Evans]

Well we share the same city! Please enlighten me about primary source documentary evidence of JC's existance. There are many people from that era, including John the Baptist, who most likely trod the earth. I am not convinced that Christ did. And I would like to think that he did.

Well, there's the bible, if you consider that a primary source.

Maybe I chose the wrong response above, or maybe you just lured me into a clever trap (or I stupidly made one for myself). I, personally, know very little about any historical documents from that time, so I am unable to answer your question re primary sources.

However, I will quote this (it should fall under fair use, i think): There is no doubt that Jesus was a historical figure; he is in fact one of the better-attested figures of the ancient world. But it remains extremely difficult to know very much about him.

The authors are Judith G. Coffin and Robert C. Stacey.

The book also mentions that there are no strictly contemporary sources that mention him. In case you're wondering about this book, it is my first year university coursebook for History: Ancient Civilisations, therefore I believe it to be a reliable source(they wouldn't pick it otherwise, would they?).

[Polaris]

I dunno, it's got violence, bloodletting, genocide, incest, ethnic cleansing, apocalyptic preachers, prophecy, more violence, romance, regicide, crappy poetry, a big flood and an escape from slavery.

What more could you want in a book?

Giant robots, monster trucks, Slinkies and grappling hooks.

[Ladewig]

Are there specific Bible verses that lead you to these conclusions?

I base my conclusions on the ten commandments plus the descriptions about Jesus.

I understand that you are basing your conclusions on the descriptions of Jesus, but you still haven't answered my question. Are there specific Bible verses that lead you to believe that Jesus would approve of sex outside of marriage or homosexual sex?

You simply cannot have it both ways. Either you respect the OT or Jesus and the 10 commandments.

I am very confused here. The 10 commandments are in the Old Testament. Why are you constructing a dichotomy that groups the 10 C with the stories of Jesus in the New Testament rather than with all the other stuff in the Old Testament?

[GT/CS]

Am I missing something here?

These are the christian-believers' facts as I understand them

- The bible was written by god or at the very least they are his words.

- God is to be feared and worshipped because he is a real nasty sort and all christians want to spend eternity with him

- Jesus is the son of god, who thus represents god

- God is perfect, knows all, and controls all

If all of the above is correct does that mean that Jesus was a rebellious youth who told dad that his old ways were wrong and the new young stud was going to change things?

How can Jesus spread a completely different message than what god said years earlier? Did god forget what he said before? And if god is perfect and controls everything why can't he even get his punk hippie kid to spread the correct message?!!!

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/

[Inanna]

Buddy oliver,why do you call yourself a Christian?Is it because your dad & his dad were Christians too or is it because of the fact that you seriously practise Christianity?
all the best
_

[Oliver]

The thing with Jesus was that, if he existed, he was loved by everyone and he loved everyone, but still that doesn't mean he wasn't an idiot.

It's like today's new age gurus. Yes, everybody enjoys their achievements and they're very nice and take care of ill people and have lots of fans and follwors who bow on their knews before them...but they're still stupid.

The bible is so contradictory.
He's super powerful and likes you, so everything you don't agree with will have to be his mysterious ways.
His love directly affects you but when he hates you...oh....it's just this very mysterious and humanly incomprehensible kind of love.
It's a like a husband beating his wife.

Religion, New Age Beliefs and Conspiracy theories are by nature, contradictory and immune to critical scrutiny which leads to either paranoia, martyrdom or thickheadeness.


If Jesus existed and he is a "higher being" then he is indeed an Idiot for his liberal views about: "Love everyone". The problem I have is that todays Christians swept this image of Jesus under the carpet whenever they don't agree with him. That's no belief at all, it's simply dodging out of comfort.

And your statement about the contradictions within the Bible proves that the Bible is a bunch of crappy statements made by humans. There is no way to think about the Bible as the words of a Supreme Being - unless you think that this so called God/Jesus are schizophrenic Idiots.

Do you base your imaginings on your own independent thoughts, or on what the bible says,ie someone else's imaginings?


I base my conclusion on the 10 Commandments - and I personally see no way to ignore them just because other verses in the Bible give contradictiously explanations.

So the 10 Commandments should be the highest standard - above everything else written in the Bible.

Well, the first part is that, because Jesus was so good and had powers and consequently everything he said became a sort of authoritative statement of unshakable truth about reality, people perceived him as such, any statement coming from him that they didn't agree with, it would only have one explanation: " *shrug* it must be his mysterious, incomprehensible wisdom only obtainable in the glorious, Heaven the house of the Lord our God."

Jesus is only good, he cannot be bad. If he shows you he loves you...like giving you advice and hugging you and playing with your children and the sheep and cloning loafs of bread for the ex-blind poor people, then sure he's a lovely individual.
If he believes gays should be stoned and throws pigs into a precipice and sees women as inferior and calls people names, it must also be love, but a humanly incomprehensible kind of love.

The religious fundamentalists twist and break everything so it fits their already dogmatic views of who Jesus Christ was.

That's what I was trying to say...

And those who say that Jesus wasn't perfect...then why call him divine? Because he said so, after spending his childhood and teenage years in mosks and in places where people only talked about the messiah?


I fully agree with you: Why calling an imperfect guy as being perfect if it isn't true?

Jesus to me is someone who is opposed to violence in any form. And the 10 Commandments confirm this thinking. So how are fundies able to ignore these "biblical facts" whenever it fits their personal agendas?

I think this is a somewhat valid issue Oliver is raising: Jesus was clearly very liberal. So, why are his most ardent followers so dang conservative?

I think the answer is that most of his ardent followers are not really interested in following Jesus, but rather their own ideological ideals; and they choose to twist Jesus into their God-of-Choice, more out their cultural heritage, than anything else.

If there was no concept of Jesus, I think fundies would still behave essentially the same way. They would merely tack their ideals onto something else, either another Biblical figure, or some other character that could have been invented (even if that character was also supposed to be liberal).

It is similar to the reason Al Queda claims they are Islamic Fundamentalists, but most Christians clearly do not take it to the same hideous extreme.
The real fundamentals of Islam are quite different from what terrorists claim. They are merely latching their ideologies onto a framework they adopted through their heritage.

One piece of evidence we have to support my claim, is in the form of Unitarian Universalism. Many of their congregations study the philosophies of Jesus, but do not believe he was really the son of God or anything else of divine nature. As a result, most of them are quite liberal.


Quite frankly - personally I see no difference between Al Qaida and Christian Beliefs. The reason for that is that Christian Fundies are not living in a world in which Muslims are "casting the stones around" in their homelands. But if this would be the case, I have no doubt that they would act in a similar extreme way to justify their actions based on the Bible.

Jesus and the 10 C's are liberal. Everything else is a lie.

What makes you say that Jesus was very liberal?


His image portrayed in the Bible. Someone who is filled with love - who forgives the ones who don't share his views, someone who believes in the 10 Commandments and someone who shares love with people who don't care about his beliefs.

Are there specific Bible verses that lead you to these conclusions? Actually, I think conclusions might be too strong a word. That lead you to these speculations?


My religious lessons were 20 years ago - so I cannot point out specific verses I've read a long time ago. However, I never read anything about Jesus telling that isn't liberal from his POV.

Ah, but can we conclude that He was antidisestablishmentarian?

[you did ask for it]


It depends on what you think "antidisestablishmentarian" is. So why do you think he thought this way?

Oliver, are you really intending to make a blanket statement against a whole, not-really-all-that-homogenous society like this?

Are you implying that, say, Germans don't contradict themselves regarding this issue? Are there no groups in Germany that make use of religion, especially versions of Christian religion, to promote conservative issues?

What about Italy? There's this guy there...what's his name? Benedict something or other. Wears a funny hat. Does he not promote the same contradictions you mention in your OP?

Why does everything have to work off of the assumption that us Americans are just such horrible, horrible people?


I think German Fundies have the same kind of doubts and comfortable misinterpretations. The difference is that religion and politics are much more separated than in the US. So fundies don't have a chance to put their feet into the "political door" like in case of the "Christian right", for example.

Are you yet another one that weasels away the horrors of the OT by taking dishonest refuge in the NT.

So I have to repeat a post:

To just use NT only, one must be either a liar or a compulsive bible-cherry-picker to fit whatever one happens to think.

The 10 commandments (whichever you pick) are not in the New Testament.
In the New Testament, Abraham is referred to 68 times, the ancient Israelites are mentioned 73 times, Jacob 26 times, Issac 20 times, Elijah 29 times, Isiah 22 times, Noah 8 times, King David is mentioned 58 times. The name Moses appears 80 times!

Also, Jesus said "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I come not to destroy, but to fulfil." Matthew 5:17. Therefore, Jesus came to fulfil Old Testament Law.

"Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." Matthew 5:18. The Old testament laws are binding on everyone, forever.

"If you believe Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?" John 5:45. This says it all.

So, are your beliefs based only on the New Testament?

Would that be the bits that don't contain reference to Jesus, commandments, law, Abraham, Israelites, Jacob, Isaac, Isiah, Noah, King David or Moses?

There's not a lot left.

Wonder no more. The bible has the answer. Jesus is not nice.

He said:
"But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me."

.


I didn't now the phrase you quoted about "killing in front of me". But it's just another example of the Bible being a pile of crap.

How can people believe in such stupid contradictions don't even recognizing them? :boggled:

I think you'll find you have to have it both ways, you can't take the son and leave the father when they're THE SAME GUY. And you're right, Jesus' teaching do conflict with many of Yahweh's earlier commands, but that's probably because he wasn't actually the messiah.


So, who was he? If he isn't the "Messiah" nor does agree with the "Messiah's" wisdom, who is he anyway?

[gtc]

Oliver,

Doesn't Germany have the Christlich Demokratische Union Deutschlands and the Christlich-Soziale Union in Bayern?

Also, why do you pick the 10 commandments from the Old Testament and not some other part?