What caused the 47 intertwined core collums of the wtc buildings to collapse?

[FatesWebb]

they were the strongest, not the weakest spots, so why did they collapse?

NOVA video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=weqBynRZGG8

so why? wouldnt just the joists that connected the floors to the core collapse? the core should still be standing.

[Rahne Everson]

Why do you assume that the core can stand all by itself?

[Revolutionary91]

What caused the 47 intertwined core collums of the wtc buildings to collapse?

Bombs.

[mortimer]

Bombs.

Evidence?

[Revolutionary91]

Whats also interesting is that these huge columns didnt arrest the essentially freefall collapse of the upper block.

[Brainster]

The buildings collapsing around them and pelting them with debris caused the core columns to topple. You are aware that substantial portions of both cores remained standing for a few seconds after the rest of the buildings had collapsed?

[Rahne Everson]

Whats also interesting is that these huge columns didnt arrest the essentially freefall collapse of the upper block.

Why do you presume they would have?

[Pardalis]

Someone needs to do a wash (http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/888646ba00d56b656.jpg).

[Unsecured Coins]

Evidence?


slap yourself!! you know better than to ask for that!

[Elizabeth I]

collums?

[funk de fino]

Video link no use

A bit like his arguments

And Rev's pathetic whining

[Mojo]

Was it, perhaps, something to do with a couple of airliners being flown into them?

[FatesWebb]

still waiting for an answer that isnt bogus, which as well all know is impossible.

here is a picture...

http://physics911.net/images/9-11%20Picture6.jpg

[twinstead]

Obviously, the people who planned the CD of the towers didn't take into account that intrepid googlevestigators who would discover their plot and bring all the lies of the NIST engineers and Purdue Scientists to light.

Well done!

Seriously, Rev and FatesWebb do you understand the concept of argument from personal incredulity, and why you need to be careful of that?

[FatesWebb]

Obviously, the people who planned the CD of the towers didn't take into account that intrepid googlevestigators who would discover their plot and bring all the lies of the NIST engineers and Purdue Scientists to light.

Well done!

Seriously, Rev and FatesWebb do you understand the concept of argument from personal incredulity, and why you need to be careful of that?

awesome debunking, you are quite the master. (NOT)

[FatesWebb]

I have the blueprints if it will help you to construct an answer, however I warn they are 500mb zipped.

[kookbreaker]

I have the blueprints if it will help you to construct an answer, however I warn they are 500mb zipped.

You do not have blueprints. You have some architectural drawings done for interior work. Not the same thing at all.

[twinstead]

still waiting for an answer that isnt bogus, which as well all know is impossible.

here is a picture...

http://physics911.net/images/9-11%20Picture6.jpg

What is your definition of bogus? Any post that disagrees with you?

The answer to your question is that the core DID indeed not collapse with the rest of the building, it stood for a few seconds. With nothing to hold it up, it then collapsed.

A return question is: What makes you think the cores shouldn't have collapsed, and why are so many structural engineers apparently wrong about that then? (okay, that's 2 questions. bonus points for you).

Now, tell me what is bogus about the answer

[Mojo]

collums?


Precious.

[funk de fino]

it means "connected together" and rather than answer here, feel free to answer in this new thread, so that we don't continue to hijack this thread.

definition for intertwined

entangled \entangled\ adj.
1. in a confused mass. Contrasted with untangled. [Narrower
terms: afoul(postnominal), foul, fouled; knotted, snarled, snarly
; matted; rootbound; intertwined]

Syn: tangled.


2. deeply involved especially in something problematic; as,
entangled in the conflict.

Syn: embroiled.

3. constrained by or as if by a convoluted rope or net;
ensnared.


completely and utterly wrong again

are you trying to break the record for the most mistakes in one sitting?

[pomeroo]

Bombs.


Bzzzt! Wrong!


Inappropriate personal comment removed.

Please keep it civil.

[Newtons Bit]

they were the strongest, not the weakest spots, so why did they collapse?

NOVA video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=weqBynRZGG8

so why? wouldnt just the joists that connected the floors to the core collapse? the core should still be standing.

Stress failure. I recommend you do some research on the subject. For starters, read all the papers by Bazant on the subject.

[Pardalis]

Fates, I noticed you never introduced yourself, as if you were already accustomed to this forum...

[funk de fino]

I thought the truther story was that no-one had the blueprints?

[twinstead]

awesome debunking, you are quite the master. (NOT)

Don't quit your day job for the comedy circuit.

Dispense with the ad homs and answer my question: do you know what argument from personal incredulity means? If so, what have you got that shows you just don't fail to understand why it collapsed, but that it's impossible for it to collapse?

[DGM]

I have the blueprints if it will help you to construct an answer, however I warn they are 500mb zipped.
Do you have permission to distribute these? If so I would like a copy. Only the "as built" please.

[Par]

awesome debunking, you are quite the master. (NOT)



Wow. A “not” joke. I haven’t seen one of those in years.

[Revolutionary91]

Fates, I noticed you never introduced yourself, as if you were already accustomed to this forum...

Ah the old standby, accuse new poster of being a sock. I can personally vouch that he isn't. He knows me and RedIbis and we wanted him to join to get a fairer balance on this forum.

[Par]

Fates, I noticed you never introduced yourself, as if you were already accustomed to this forum...



Ah. Is it P'Dope?

[Pardalis]

Ah. Is it P'Dope?

I'm thinking Killturd.

[twinstead]

Ah the old standby, accuse new poster of being a sock. I can personally vouch that he isn't. He knows me and RedIbis and we wanted him to join to get a fairer balance on this forum.

It would be nice if truth movement forums allowed us to go there and argue our cases like we do you folks, huh?

[Par]

Ah the old standby, accuse new poster of being a sock.



You’re right; he was getting far too close to the truth.

[twinstead]

Okay, so the OP can continue to his next question, what is the official answer to this question?

[bonavada]

What caused the 47 intertwined core collums of the wtc buildings to collapse?
they were the strongest, not the weakest spots, so why did they collapse?

NOVA video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=weqBynRZGG8

so why? wouldnt just the joists that connected the floors to the core collapse? the core should still be standing.

which "intertwined" columns are referring to?
while you think about it here's a pic of the core "still standing"

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/8748455348d42d173.jpg

BV

[twinstead]

Okay FatesWeb, look at the picture of the core standing there after the rest of the building has collapsed around it.

What makes you think it should have stayed up?

[Par]

Bombs.



Bombs made from hush-a-boom and invisi-bang.

[VespaGuy]

still waiting for an answer that isnt bogus, which as well all know is impossible.

Why are you wasting your time here, then? There are plenty of engineers and structural designers here that can give you answers, but you will dismiss them out of hand.

Why not do your own research. Have you personally talked to any structural engineers? What do they say?

[Mince]

Evidence?

What caused the 47 intertwined core collums of the wtc buildings to collapse?

Bombs.

Evidence?

Explosions.

Evidence?

Earwitnesses.

[Pardalis]

Ah the old standby, accuse new poster of being a sock. I can personally vouch that he isn't. He knows me and RedIbis and we wanted him to join to get a fairer balance on this forum.

Another genius? Wow, I don't think adding another one will help you. Three brains are better than one eh? Not even close.

[VespaGuy]

Ah the old standby, accuse new poster of being a sock. I can personally vouch that he isn't. He knows me and RedIbis and we wanted him to join to get a fairer balance on this forum.

Can we expect them to dissappear, too, when summer vacation ends?

[mortimer]

Rev, still trying to dig up that evidence of bombs?

[Par]

What caused the 47 intertwined core collums of the wtc buildings to collapse?

Bombs.

Evidence?

Explosions.

Evidence?

Earwitnesses.



Well, a double consequent affirmation. Someone’s showing off.

[kookbreaker]

Given the construction methods used, there is little indication that the WTC core was able to stand on its own for any effective lentght of time. Especially given that it was sharing the load with the perimeter columns.

This photo, well used, shows that as they built the core, they also brought up the perimeter. The core isn't far above the level of the rest of the building:

http://www.greatbuildings.com/cgi-bin/gbi.cgi/World_Trade_Center_Images.html/cid_wtc_mya_WTC_const.3.gbi

Now compare this with a concrete core building recently built where the core is designed to be free standing:

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g157/kookbreaker/ComcastTower1.jpg

Even Factswebb's picture is showing little more than a handful of stories of core above the perimeter level.

The core may be the strongest part of the building, but that doesn't mean it would stand on its own, especially when 30 stories are dropped on it.

[Trifikas]

Known: Parts of the Main Central Structure remained standing for several seconds after the initial collapse.

Question: What caused the Collapse of the Central Structure?

Theory 1: Bombs.

Case 1: Bombs were set off to destroy the core before rest of the structure fell.

Problem with Case 1: Central Core would have fallen when the bombs went off, Does not match observered.

Case 2: Bombs were set off to destory the core after the rest of the structure fell:

Problem with Case 2: No explosions were visible; While dust obscured a lot of the tower, an explosion sizeable enough to destroy the core would have made an impression on the dust clouds which was not observed. Also, No reports of Major explosions heard between collapse of the outer portion of the building and the Central core. Does not match observered.

Case 3: there is no case 3. Bombs either went off before the outer portion of the building collapsed, or After.

Conclusion: Theory 1, that bombs were used to collapse the central core after the remaining structure fell, is rejected. Neither Case 1 or Case 2 match the observed Phenomena.

[Rahne Everson]

still waiting for an answer that isnt bogus, which as well all know is impossible.

here is a picture...

http://physics911.net/images/9-11%20Picture6.jpg

I'm taking it you assume the core would stand because it was built independant of the floors, as you evidenced by the picture.

You got corroborating evidence? More photos, maybe of the entire core standing while working build the floors and the walls? Construction orders? Quotes and interviews from those who worked on the Trade Center?

And you have been provided a picture of part of the core standing after the collapse. Is that what you want?

My main question is: what EXACTLY would you expect from the collapse and why EXACTLY do you expect that?

[Alferd_Packer]

still waiting for an answer that isnt bogus, which as well all know is impossible.

here is a picture...

http://physics911.net/images/9-11%20Picture6.jpg

So, Ace, where in that picture are the diagonal braces between the columns that would prevent the columns from racking and buckling?

[bonavada]

http://physics911.net/images/9-11%20Picture6.jpg

So, Ace, where in that picture are the diagonal braces between the columns that would prevent the columns from racking and buckling?

i was thinking along the same lines :-]

BV

[twinstead]

Now. I'm curious, because I guarantee that the OP will declare ALL the responses to be bogus, I wonder what an example of a non-bogus answer would be?

Let me try:

FatesWebb, you are totally right. That darn core should have stayed up. Down with The Man! Hang 'em High!

So. Is THAT a non-bogus answer FW?

[Undesired Walrus]

essentially freefall .

What the hell is 'essentially' freefall?

It's like saying my dog is 'essentially' a cat.

[defaultdotxbe]

I have the blueprints if it will help you to construct an answer, however I warn they are 500mb zipped.
actually if you remove the useless information (you are capable of determining what is useless, right?) the actual floorplans are only about 130mb compresses


and as for the topic, i thought it was 42 straight core collumns, where did the other 5 come from? and how were they "intertwined?"

[fezzic]

How about this?

The failure in the perimeter columns allowed the upper portion of the towers to tilt thereby inducing a twisting, as well as the compression, of the core columns. (Note this is a gross simplification of what happened during the collapse initiation.) Since the core columns were meant to handle compression, any ability to handle twisting or moment being comparatively limited, the join points of the columns could give way or snap. This essentially converted the upper portion of the tower from a part of the building structure into essentially a large mass descending on the remaining portion of the building and its structural elements.

Since the disruption of the structural elements at the point of collapse meant that there was no coherent system of transferring loads and energy to to foundation -- the connection has been broken (a gross simplication since obviously the perimeter columns along at least 2 or 3 sides were mostly intact) -- some other portion of the structure has to take up the duty of absorbing the energy and distributing the resulting stress to the otherwise intact structural elements below. There was no such place for that to occur.

Neither the core nor the perimeter columns below the collapse zone were able to support the building by themselves. They both needed to work together to keep the building up. The floor truss system was to provide a connection between the core and perimeter so that you'd have useable floor space, probably provide bracing for both the core and perimeter columns, and mobilize the weight of the building to assist in resisting wind loads. The floor trusses were not designed or intended to withstand tens of thousands of tons of building falling on them, so they had no chance of serving as a surrogate point for directing the loadings of the building falling on them to the structure elements.

It has been observed that the core columns, at some level, did sometimes remain standing for some short period of time after the tower collapsed. In the chaos of the collapse, it is not completely unbelievable to think that a chance alignment of circumstances resulted in the floor trusses connected to the core columns to be stripped in a fashion that did not immediately pull apart the core columns.

This completely ignores whether the structure below the collapse zone could have arrested the collapse assuming that a plane of infinite force could have been created at any floor of choice which would take the impact and transmit the energy of the impact and load stresses to the perimeter and core columns.

The closest analogy to what I describe would be a human tower. Each level stands on the shoulders of the person below and each person uses their arm to steady themselves. Now presume that one entire level of people, say the top level, lightly jumps and shifts so they land on the arm of the person below them. Now the ability of the human tower to remain standing is dependent on the ability of each person on that lower level to support someone who is standing or landing on their arm not their shoulder. If the person cannot do so, the person above them falls, if enough people can't support someone on their arm, the whole human tower will begin to collapse.

Granted, this is not completely analogous to the tower's structural system but does illustrate that if the structure is disrupted -- columns break or the person's above steps or hops off the shoulder onto the arm -- that something has to take up the load or the whole thing can come down.

By the way this is not intended to be a scientific treatise on the collapse, merely how I reason why it was essentially impossible for the remaining structure below the collapse zone to arrest the collapse, even assuming it had a chance if the forces and loadings were somehow channeled to the structural columns.

:)

[Crungy]

actually if you remove the useless information (you are capable of determining what is useless, right?) the actual floorplans are only about 130mb compresses



The structural detail sheets might be of some help too.......:p

[Newtons Bit]

Given the construction methods used, there is little indication that the WTC core was able to stand on its own for any effective lentght of time. Especially given that it was sharing the load with the perimeter columns.

This photo, well used, shows that as they built the core, they also brought up the perimeter. The core isn't far above the level of the rest of the building:

http://www.greatbuildings.com/cgi-bin/gbi.cgi/World_Trade_Center_Images.html/cid_wtc_mya_WTC_const.3.gbi

Now compare this with a concrete core building recently built where the core is designed to be free standing:

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g157/kookbreaker/ComcastTower1.jpg

Even Factswebb's picture is showing little more than a handful of stories of core above the perimeter level.

The core may be the strongest part of the building, but that doesn't mean it would stand on its own, especially when 30 stories are dropped on it.

The core is strongest for gravity loads, it is weakest for LATERAL loads.

[defaultdotxbe]

The structural detail sheets might be of some help too.......:p
im just amused that he still seems to be holding on to the 400-some megabytes of scrap data from autocad, lol

[FatesWebb]

You do not have blueprints. You have some architectural drawings done for interior work. Not the same thing at all.

no I have the blueprints, how the heck would you know what I do and do not have?

[FatesWebb]

Do you have permission to distribute these? If so I would like a copy. Only the "as built" please.

the file is 500 megs would you like me to email you them :) (in other words portability is an issue)

[Crungy]

im just amused that he still seems to be holding on to the 400-some megabytes of scrap data from autocad, lol

He's poring over the sheet with a magnifying glass looking for a room labeled "Thermite Storage". If he finds it, I'm wondering if it's classified as active or inactive storage?

[defaultdotxbe]

no I have the blueprints, how the heck would you know what I do and do not have?
because a set of "blueprint" totalling about 500mb has been fgloating around for months, problem is they arent blueprints or structural plans, they are floorplans

but if you have something different by all means send it to me, if you cant find anywhere to put it ill hook you up with an ftp server

[FatesWebb]

which "intertwined" columns are referring to?
while you think about it here's a pic of the core "still standing"

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/8748455348d42d173.jpg

BV

what is the source of this picture, it appears to be photoshopped, as well as I have never seen this before, can you provide a video with this in it?

[Crungy]

no I have the blueprints, how the heck would you know what I do and do not have?

From which discipline?

[mortimer]

what is the source of this picture, it appears to be photoshopped, as well as I have never seen this before, can you provide a video with this in it?

I agree! If it's not on YouTube, it's not evidence!

[FatesWebb]

Given the construction methods used, there is little indication that the WTC core was able to stand on its own for any effective lentght of time. Especially given that it was sharing the load with the perimeter columns.

This photo, well used, shows that as they built the core, they also brought up the perimeter. The core isn't far above the level of the rest of the building:

http://www.greatbuildings.com/cgi-bin/gbi.cgi/World_Trade_Center_Images.html/cid_wtc_mya_WTC_const.3.gbi

Now compare this with a concrete core building recently built where the core is designed to be free standing:

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g157/kookbreaker/ComcastTower1.jpg

Even Factswebb's picture is showing little more than a handful of stories of core above the perimeter level.

The core may be the strongest part of the building, but that doesn't mean it would stand on its own, especially when 30 stories are dropped on it.

actually they built the core, as well as the rest of the buildings in 3 sections, so yes they built the core first, at least 1 third of it.. and 1/3 of the core was capable of standing on its own, then they built the 2nd third of it... which stood on its own. you picture appears to show the first third of the core is all...

[Crungy]

Also, you might want to verify those blueprints with the as-builts. Do you have those?

[FatesWebb]

Known: Parts of the Main Central Structure remained standing for several seconds after the initial collapse.

Question: What caused the Collapse of the Central Structure?

Theory 1: Bombs.

Case 1: Bombs were set off to destroy the core before rest of the structure fell.

Problem with Case 1: Central Core would have fallen when the bombs went off, Does not match observered.

Case 2: Bombs were set off to destory the core after the rest of the structure fell:

Problem with Case 2: No explosions were visible; While dust obscured a lot of the tower, an explosion sizeable enough to destroy the core would have made an impression on the dust clouds which was not observed. Also, No reports of Major explosions heard between collapse of the outer portion of the building and the Central core. Does not match observered.

Case 3: there is no case 3. Bombs either went off before the outer portion of the building collapsed, or After.

Conclusion: Theory 1, that bombs were used to collapse the central core after the remaining structure fell, is rejected. Neither Case 1 or Case 2 match the observed Phenomena.

nope case 3 is what usually happens to cores, shape charges cut diagonal cuts into the columns, allowing them to fall diagonally. you would have us believe that demolishing a building using explosives is not possible.

[HyJinX]

<snip>it appears to be photoshopped<snip>

:rolleyes:

Troother rule #36 - If any image is shown to cause damage to your pet theory, immediately dismiss it as a fake or having been tampered with. This will allow you to continue debating as if you had never seen the image to begin with. If the image has been proven to be authentic, quickly change your arguement to a different topic as if you had never seen the image to begin with.

[FatesWebb]

actually if you remove the useless information (you are capable of determining what is useless, right?) the actual floorplans are only about 130mb compresses


and as for the topic, i thought it was 42 straight core collumns, where did the other 5 come from? and how were they "intertwined?"

the useless information? as in the 3d modeling based on the blueprints?

[Rahne Everson]

actually they built the core, as well as the rest of the buildings in 3 sections, so yes they built the core first, at least 1 third of it.. and 1/3 of the core was capable of standing on its own, then they built the 2nd third of it... which stood on its own. you picture appears to show the first third of the core is all...

Proof?

[FatesWebb]

How about this?

The failure in the perimeter columns allowed the upper portion of the towers to tilt thereby inducing a twisting, as well as the compression, of the core columns. (Note this is a gross simplification of what happened during the collapse initiation.) Since the core columns were meant to handle compression, any ability to handle twisting or moment being comparatively limited, the join points of the columns could give way or snap. This essentially converted the upper portion of the tower from a part of the building structure into essentially a large mass descending on the remaining portion of the building and its structural elements.

Since the disruption of the structural elements at the point of collapse meant that there was no coherent system of transferring loads and energy to to foundation -- the connection has been broken (a gross simplication since obviously the perimeter columns along at least 2 or 3 sides were mostly intact) -- some other portion of the structure has to take up the duty of absorbing the energy and distributing the resulting stress to the otherwise intact structural elements below. There was no such place for that to occur.

Neither the core nor the perimeter columns below the collapse zone were able to support the building by themselves. They both needed to work together to keep the building up. The floor truss system was to provide a connection between the core and perimeter so that you'd have useable floor space, probably provide bracing for both the core and perimeter columns, and mobilize the weight of the building to assist in resisting wind loads. The floor trusses were not designed or intended to withstand tens of thousands of tons of building falling on them, so they had no chance of serving as a surrogate point for directing the loadings of the building falling on them to the structure elements.

It has been observed that the core columns, at some level, did sometimes remain standing for some short period of time after the tower collapsed. In the chaos of the collapse, it is not completely unbelievable to think that a chance alignment of circumstances resulted in the floor trusses connected to the core columns to be stripped in a fashion that did not immediately pull apart the core columns.

This completely ignores whether the structure below the collapse zone could have arrested the collapse assuming that a plane of infinite force could have been created at any floor of choice which would take the impact and transmit the energy of the impact and load stresses to the perimeter and core columns.

The closest analogy to what I describe would be a human tower. Each level stands on the shoulders of the person below and each person uses their arm to steady themselves. Now presume that one entire level of people, say the top level, lightly jumps and shifts so they land on the arm of the person below them. Now the ability of the human tower to remain standing is dependent on the ability of each person on that lower level to support someone who is standing or landing on their arm not their shoulder. If the person cannot do so, the person above them falls, if enough people can't support someone on their arm, the whole human tower will begin to collapse.

Granted, this is not completely analogous to the tower's structural system but does illustrate that if the structure is disrupted -- columns break or the person's above steps or hops off the shoulder onto the arm -- that something has to take up the load or the whole thing can come down.

By the way this is not intended to be a scientific treatise on the collapse, merely how I reason why it was essentially impossible for the remaining structure below the collapse zone to arrest the collapse, even assuming it had a chance if the forces and loadings were somehow channeled to the structural columns.

:)

while this attempts to explain why the collapse did continue to occur, it does not answer the question.

[kookbreaker]

actually they built the core, as well as the rest of the buildings in 3 sections, so yes they built the core first, at least 1 third of it.. and 1/3 of the core was capable of standing on its own, then they built the 2nd third of it... which stood on its own. you picture appears to show the first third of the core is all...

Where is your source for this, because:

You are wrong. (http://www.greatbuildings.com/cgi-bin/gbi.cgi/World_Trade_Center_Images.html/cid_wtc_mya_WTC_const.4.gbi)

Very wrong (http://www.greatbuildings.com/cgi-bin/gbi.cgi/World_Trade_Center_Images.html/cid_wtc_mya_WTC_const.2.gbi)

I mean, Really, really wrong! (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/wtc/images/inno-duringconstr1971-l.jpg)

[funk de fino]

see post # 20

are you going to be a man and admit you were wrong about "intertwined"

it doesnt hurt just to let one little mistake pass, once you have done one you can start looking at the rest you have made today

[FatesWebb]

Ok, I am about done here, you guys pride yourselves on being debunkers, but you are all talk and no action. We have been doing this all day and really you guys got nuthin. mostly attacks... few if any of you even take the conversations seriously. and those who do don't provide any compelling arguments.

the closest to compelling arguments I have seen thus far is a picture that shows the same patterns in the smoke, which makes me fell like further analysis will show it was photoshopped. As well as it still doesn't answer why the columns collapsed, just that they didn't immediately collapse. still there is no source for this photo as well, which I have been doing this a long time and never seen this photo, so it is hard to believe, between that and the smoke looking photoshopped. I need a source. Come on debunkers earn your title of debunker, do some debunking...... I am waiting. all talk and no show....

[kookbreaker]

the useless information? as in the 3d modeling based on the blueprints?

Troofer Rule #17 - Never pass up an opportunity to take a swipe at things you have no understanding of, and are completely ignorant of if they do not support your claims. A completely irrelevant swipe at some other subject can sometimes take the attention away from the ignorance you have been demonstrating on the subject already at hand.

[HyJinX]

For our troother friends...

[kookbreaker]

Ok, I am about done here, you guys pride yourselves on being debunkers, but you are all talk and no action. We have been doing this all day and really you guys got nuthin. mostly attacks... few if any of you even take the conversations seriously. and those who do don't provide any compelling arguments.


:nope:

[defaultdotxbe]

the useless information? as in the 3d modeling based on the blueprints?
no, as in the scrap files from autocad

but now youve confirmed what "blueprints" you have, and they are same floorplans everyone else has, ther will be no need for you to send them to me

[FatesWebb]

Where is your source for this, because:

You are wrong. (http://www.greatbuildings.com/cgi-bin/gbi.cgi/World_Trade_Center_Images.html/cid_wtc_mya_WTC_const.4.gbi)

Very wrong (http://www.greatbuildings.com/cgi-bin/gbi.cgi/World_Trade_Center_Images.html/cid_wtc_mya_WTC_const.2.gbi)

I mean, Really, really wrong! (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/wtc/images/inno-duringconstr1971-l.jpg)

you show me posts of the construction in the three phazes and instead of it being proof I am correct it shows I am incorrect?

look at your first post, notice half of the building is worn from time half is new?

[jaydeehess]

Intertwined: twined or twisted together
as in rope or twine.

utterly eroneous choice of wording FW

Connected columns would be accurate, but straight parallel columns are NOT intertwined.

[Par]

what is the source of this picture, it appears to be photoshopped


Do you have any evidence for this claim?


can you provide a video with this in it?TDVap83AEmc

[kookbreaker]

you show me posts of the construction in the three phazes and instead of it being proof I am correct it shows I am incorrect?

look at your first post, notice half of the building is worn from time half is new?

Your claim emphasis added:

"actually they built the core, as well as the rest of the buildings in 3 sections, so yes they built the core first, at least 1 third of it.. and 1/3 of the core was capable of standing on its own, then they built the 2nd third of it... which stood on its own. you picture appears to show the first third of the core is all..."

At no point does the core stand on its own.

Why must you turn this forum into a house of lies?

[Rahne Everson]

Well so much for playing nice guy. It's great to be reminded of the fact that reasoning with some people is completely fruitless.

[funk de fino]

Ok, I am about done here, you guys pride yourselves on being debunkers, but you are all talk and no action. We have been doing this all day and really you guys got nuthin. mostly attacks... few if any of you even take the conversations seriously. and those who do don't provide any compelling arguments.

the closest to compelling arguments I have seen thus far is a picture that shows the same patterns in the smoke, which makes me fell like further analysis will show it was photoshopped. As well as it still doesn't answer why the columns collapsed, just that they didn't immediately collapse. still there is no source for this photo as well, which I have been doing this a long time and never seen this photo, so it is hard to believe, between that and the smoke looking photoshopped. I need a source. Come on debunkers earn your title of debunker, do some debunking...... I am waiting. all talk and no show....

Brave Sir Robin ran away, he ran away

you have made more mistakes in one day than anyone i heve seen for a long time

if i was you i would take a break

some of your fellow truthers have photographs of the columns still standing after the initial collapse, that they use for their own wee theories

are these photoshopped as well?

[Brainster]

Now compare this with a concrete core building recently built where the core is designed to be free standing

I remember the first time I saw a building going up like that; it was around 1986 and I had been working in commercial real estate for 8 years. It boggled my mind because I had seen many high-rises constructed and had never seen that method.

[FatesWebb]

see post # 20

are you going to be a man and admit you were wrong about "intertwined"

it doesnt hurt just to let one little mistake pass, once you have done one you can start looking at the rest you have made today

the columns were interconnected, I believe you are the one who owes an admitting of ignorance.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&hs=rUB&defl=en&q=define:Intertwined&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title
among the definitions of Intertwined:

* means that the selections of version model and component structure are performed in alternating order. The following figure illustrates a general ideal of how it works. Intertwined structure is relatively more flexible than the two methods mentioned above, because when a new change happens or a new component need to be added in the configuration, for most of time it is not necessary to change the whole configuration structure.

[Trifikas]

nope case 3 is what usually happens to cores, shape charges cut diagonal cuts into the columns, allowing them to fall diagonally. you would have us believe that demolishing a building using explosives is not possible.

How exactly did you get the idea that demolition via explosives is not possible? Just because they weren't used in WTC doesn't mean it can't be done at all.

There is no "Case 3" because there is no alternative time to set the explosives off after dealing with the cases of "Before" the outer building collapsed and "After". And I'm using the End of the outer collapse as a specific moment in time; "As it was collapsing" would fall under the catagory of Case 1.

[FatesWebb]

Intertwined: twined or twisted together
as in rope or twine.

utterly eroneous choice of wording FW

Connected columns would be accurate, but straight parallel columns are NOT intertwined.

the columns were interconnected was the point, and the choice of terms in not inaccurate.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&hs=rUB&defl=en&q=define:Intertwined&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title
Definitions of Intertwined on the Web:

* means that the selections of version model and component structure are performed in alternating order. The following figure illustrates a general ideal of how it works. Intertwined structure is relatively more flexible than the two methods mentioned above, because when a new change happens or a new component need to be added in the configuration, for most of time it is not necessary to change the whole configuration structure.

[kookbreaker]

look at your first post, notice half of the building is worn from time half is new?

:nope:

That's not aging FatesWebb, that's a lack of aluminum siding.

[beachnut]

they were the strongest, not the weakest spots, so why did they collapse?

NOVA video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=weqBynRZGG8

so why? wouldnt just the joists that connected the floors to the core collapse? the core should still be standing.
The core could not take lateral loads, that was the job of the shell. The building has to have all of the building or it fails.

[jaydeehess]

you show me posts of the construction in the three phazes and instead of it being proof I am correct it shows I am incorrect?

look at your first post, notice half of the building is worn from time half is new?

Yes it may have been built in 3 phases but you said that the core was built first and that is not evident in the pictures. In no picture of the construction of the towers is the core structure ever more than a few stories higher than the completed portion of the floor span/perimeter column system.

If you can show any picture, anywhere from anytime of the construction of the towers in which the core portion of the building is more than 120 feet (less than ten floors)higher than the completed perimeter I would be very much suprised

[defaultdotxbe]

the columns were interconnected was the point, and the choice of terms in not inaccurate.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&hs=rUB&defl=en&q=define:Intertwined&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title
Definitions of Intertwined on the Web:

* means that the selections of version model and component structure are performed in alternating order. The following figure illustrates a general ideal of how it works. Intertwined structure is relatively more flexible than the two methods mentioned above, because when a new change happens or a new component need to be added in the configuration, for most of time it is not necessary to change the whole configuration structure.
you do realize that definition refers to software, right?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Component_repository_management

what was that about ones own ignorance?

[twinstead]

FatesWebb you have set the tone for every single thread you will ever start. You get some abuse, sure, but you are allowed to post (unlike some forums, huh?), and then when some people take the time to give you detailed answers to their questions you refuse to acknowledge them, call them uncompelling, or call the images presented fake.

Basically, you refuse to acknowledge ANYTHING that is contrary to your claim, and then complain that nobody's responding to your posts.

The core stood a few seconds after the collapse. There are images and video everywhere that support it. You have NOT explained WHY you think this core should not have fallen. You have NOT provided any evidence at all to support your position.

You won't be banned here unless you break the rules, but you've set yourself up for a lot of ridicule in any subsequent threads.

You brought it on yourself.

[FatesWebb]

Do you have any evidence for this claim?


TDVap83AEmc

this proves my point even more that is hardly even close to the full core, and doesn't constitute as any kinda answer to the question. so a splinter of the building hung on for an addition 3 seconds... wow. also it doesn't validate the previous picture. as requested.

[beachnut]

the columns were interconnected was the point, and the choice of terms in not inaccurate.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&hs=rUB&defl=en&q=define:Intertwined&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title
Definitions of Intertwined on the Web:

* means that the selections of version model and component structure are performed in alternating order. The following figure illustrates a general ideal of how it works. Intertwined structure is relatively more flexible than the two methods mentioned above, because when a new change happens or a new component need to be added in the configuration, for most of time it is not necessary to change the whole configuration structure.
The core needs the shell to remain standing. Sorry, but why are you unable to get the facts straight?

[funk de fino]

the columns were interconnected, I believe you are the one who owes an admitting of ignorance.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&hs=rUB&defl=en&q=define:Intertwined&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title
among the definitions of Intertwined:

* means that the selections of version model and component structure are performed in alternating order. The following figure illustrates a general ideal of how it works. Intertwined structure is relatively more flexible than the two methods mentioned above, because when a new change happens or a new component need to be added in the configuration, for most of time it is not necessary to change the whole configuration structure.

the columns were connected but they were not intertwined

that definition is for Component repository management this is for software and is nothing to do with buildings

see the link below that your definition links to

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Component_repository_management

you have debunked yourself again smartboy

just below that definition is this gem

twined or twisted together

i already showed you the definitions from the online dictionary

you are even more wrong

go admit it, it will feel good

[Par]

this proves my point even more that is hardly even close to the full core, and doesn't constitute as any kinda answer to the question. so a splinter of the building hung on for an addition 3 seconds... wow. also it doesn't validate the previous picture. as requested.



You haven’t yet provided evidence that the previous picture is a fake.

Further, we have seen no evidence to suggest that the core could stand independently of the perimeter at heights above a few storeys.

[jaydeehess]

Come on debunkers earn your title of debunker, do some debunking......

well, you have been shown that 8.5 seconds for collapse time is ridiculous, that FEMA simply does not use that as the collapse time, that even a house fire exceeds the 490oF temp you said could not be reached by anything burning in the towers(even paper exceeds that temp), you have been shown that structural steel can and has failed under fire conditions and that the core structure of the WTC towers was not built in such a way as to allow it to stand on its own and that it required the lateral support of the perimeter and floor system to keep from buckling.

You also contended that the upper 30 stories of the building was completely turned to dust using explosives and as yet have not offered any backing to that statement, instead you have thrown out a paper that is a plagerism of Hoffman's original paper that never states what you contend occured and which itself has been shown to be grossly in error.

[einsteen]

Elementary mechanics brother, elementary mechanics...:)

http://i17.tinypic.com/6b1aadk.gif

[FatesWebb]

you do realize that definition refers to software, right?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Component_repository_management

what was that about ones own ignorance?

ok here you go then,

26 Moby Thesaurus words for "intertwined":
braided, enlaced, entwined, fretted, handwoven, interknit,
interlaced, interthreaded, intertied, intertissued, interwoven,
knit, laced, loomed, plaited, platted, pleached, raddled, textile,
twined, web-footed, webbed, webby, weblike, woven, wreathed

it means tied in together....

however if you still have a problem with my wording, for which I have fully explained, then clearly you do not intend on actually debating the issue

[Par]

ok here you go then,

26 Moby Thesaurus words for "intertwined":
braided, enlaced, entwined, fretted, handwoven, interknit,
interlaced, interthreaded, intertied, intertissued, interwoven,
knit, laced, loomed, plaited, platted, pleached, raddled, textile,
twined, web-footed, webbed, webby, weblike, woven, wreathed

it means tied in together....

however if you still have a problem with my wording, for which I have fully explained, then clearly you do not intend on actually debating the issue



If you would just admit you’re wrong about a very minor issue that you are clearly wrong about then you’d be able to have the proper debate you claim to wish for.

[defaultdotxbe]

ok here you go then,

26 Moby Thesaurus words for "intertwined":
braided, enlaced, entwined, fretted, handwoven, interknit,
interlaced, interthreaded, intertied, intertissued, interwoven,
knit, laced, loomed, plaited, platted, pleached, raddled, textile,
twined, web-footed, webbed, webby, weblike, woven, wreathed

it means tied in together....

however if you still have a problem with my wording, for which I have fully explained, then clearly you do not intend on actually debating the issue
actually all those definitions also imply twisted

how can you honestly debate the issue when you misrepresent the construction of the towers?

[AZCat]

however if you still have a problem with my wording, for which I have fully explained, then clearly you do not intend on actually debating the issue

I can see you're getting a crash course in logical fallacies. We call this one an ignoratio elenchi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignoratio_elenchi) (or irrelevant conclusion). Your first point is irrelevant to the second.

[FatesWebb]

FatesWebb you have set the tone for every single thread you will ever start. You get some abuse, sure, but you are allowed to post (unlike some forums, huh?), and then when some people take the time to give you detailed answers to their questions you refuse to acknowledge them, call them uncompelling, or call the images presented fake.

Basically, you refuse to acknowledge ANYTHING that is contrary to your claim, and then complain that nobody's responding to your posts.

The core stood a few seconds after the collapse. There are images and video everywhere that support it. You have NOT explained WHY you think this core should not have fallen. You have NOT provided any evidence at all to support your position.

You won't be banned here unless you break the rules, but you've set yourself up for a lot of ridicule in any subsequent threads.

You brought it on yourself.

actually, that is not true, I am willing to admit that the construction of the cores did not preceed more than ten stories as suggested above the shell.

I am willing to admit things when they are reasonable, and even shown or proven. However thus far that is the only point that has been shown..

Well actually I think maybe this point of this whole thread is irrelevant anyways, but the fact is if you look at 9/11 objectively you will find that the official story does not add up, it defies science in many ways that we already touched on in the other thread. Ways that you have been unable to debunk, or explain. So while the core columns argument may be a weak one, the actual freefall collapse and temperatures at the wtc are not. I still feel that I won those arguments presented in the other thread.

Either way, you don't know me, and you cannot say what I will do, or such. I honestly don't appreciate it..

This actually says a little about you, are you sure that you have really looked at the information? you have already made your mind up about me, and you just met me.

I used to be just like you, out to prove the CT wrong, but the one thing where I was different was I had an open mind.

[defaultdotxbe]

but the fact is if you look at 9/11 objectively you will find that the official story does not add up
does this count as a no true scotsman fallacy?

ive looked into 9/11 subjectively (expecting there to have been bombs in the towers) objectively, then subjectively again (expecting to find support for the official story)

each time i came to the same conclusions

[FatesWebb]

well, you have been shown that 8.5 seconds for collapse time is ridiculous, that FEMA simply does not use that as the collapse time,

that is simply not true

My collapse duration of 8 and 10 seconds, came FROM THE FEMA REPORT, AND THE 9/11 report.... and seismic data, proven in videos at http://video.google.com/videoplay?d...980438587461603 1:25:58, 1:04:56 1:13:30 and 1:38:11 or by checking the reports yourself.

http://www.fema.gov/pdf/library/fema403_ch1.pdf
Fema Report: Chapter 1 1-10 Table 1.1 Timeline of major events
TIMELINE OF MAJOR EVENTS:
Start time: 9:59:04 EDT: signal duration 10 seconds: WTC2 Began collapsing after 56 minutes, 10 seconds.

Start time: 9:59:04 EDT: signal duration 8 seconds: WTC1 Began collapsing after 102 minutes, 5 seconds.

then it does go on and say "based on seismic recordings made by the Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory of Columbia University."

http://img121.imagevenue.com/loc312/th_95055_FemaCollapseTimes_122_312lo.JPG (http://img121.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=95055_FemaCollapseTimes_122_312lo.JP G)
On page 305 of the 9/11 Commission Report,
http://www.9-11commission.gov/report/911Report.pdf we are told, in the government's complete and final report of 9/11, that the South Tower collapsed in 10 seconds. (That's the government's official number. Videos confirm that it fell unnaturally, if not precisely that, fast. See for yourself:

http://www.911blimp.net/videos/TooFast1stCollapse.mov
http://www.911blimp.net/videos/TooFast1stCollapse.rm

also you have the seismic data:

data from:http://www.ldeo.columbia.edu/LCSN/Eq/20010911_wtc.html

Date Origin Time (UTC) Magnitude (Richter scale) Time (EDT) Dominant Period Signal Duration Remark
09/11/2001 13:59:04±1 2.1 09:59:04 0.8 sec 10 seconds first collapse
09/11/2001 14:28:31±1 2.3 10:28:31 0.9 sec 8 seconds second collapse

[Gravy]

Keep 'em coming FatesWeb. You, Malcolm Kirkman (Sudoled), realcddeal, Revolutionary91, and your ilk are the best weapons the debunker can have against the conspiracy nuts. Thank you for being self-debunking. Around the world lurkers are shaking their heads and saying, "Yet another one who has absolutely no idea what he's talking about and who has no idea when he's arguing with people who do?"

By the way, the seismic reports are poor indicators of collapse times. I'll give you a dollar if you know why.

[FatesWebb]

Elementary mechanics brother, elementary mechanics...:)

http://i17.tinypic.com/6b1aadk.gif

really so elementary mechanics say that the BIG part instead of the little part will break? can you show me a paper about this?

[Gamolon]

I have the blueprints if it will help you to construct an answer, however I warn they are 500mb zipped.

You have structural steel drawings of the core with connection details and bills of material for them?

Where did you get them? Are they on the internet somewhere?

[funk de fino]

ok here you go then,

26 Moby Thesaurus words for "intertwined":
braided, enlaced, entwined, fretted, handwoven, interknit,
interlaced, interthreaded, intertied, intertissued, interwoven,
knit, laced, loomed, plaited, platted, pleached, raddled, textile,
twined, web-footed, webbed, webby, weblike, woven, wreathed

it means tied in together....

however if you still have a problem with my wording, for which I have fully explained, then clearly you do not intend on actually debating the issue


wrong wrong wrong

the columns are not in any way constructed like that

just admit you made a boo boo

[FatesWebb]

actually all those definitions also imply twisted

how can you honestly debate the issue when you misrepresent the construction of the towers?

your just nitpickin is all, so the word wasn't the best, but it got the point across, and with my addendum, it was 100% clear what I meant.

[Par]

On page 305 of the 9/11 Commission Report,
http://www.9-11commission.gov/report/911Report.pdf we are told, in the government's complete and final report of 9/11, that the South Tower collapsed in 10 seconds. (That's the government's official number.)



The 9/11 Commission Report is not an engineering report.

[defaultdotxbe]

that is simply not true

My collapse duration of 8 and 10 seconds, came FROM THE FEMA REPORT, AND THE 9/11 report....
the comission report says 10 and 12 seconds, not 8 and 10 (they are still wrong though)

they source a NIST preliminary report, if you go read that report you see that NIST says thats the time it took for the first peices of debris to hit the ground (presumable falling from the impact point)

so the 9/11 commission misunderstood what NIST was saying


BTW, how could one of the towers have fallen completely in 8 seconds if freefall time would be 10 seconds? was gravity somehow stronger in manhattan that day?

[Pardalis]

Another anti-government hillbilly trying to argue engineering?

How original...

[Regnad Kcin]

Ah the old standby, accuse new poster of being a sock. I can personally vouch that he isn't.Meaningless, I'm sure you'll agree.

He knows me and RedIbis and we wanted him to join to get a fairer balance on this forum.Three times zero is still zero.

[alfaniner]

Gollum.

[FatesWebb]

.... conspiracy nuts. .....

yeah good name for us.... all of us, some of which include...

Rep. Curt Weldon, Senator Max Cleland, Senator Bob Graham , Senator Mark Dayton, Louis Freeh, Edward L. Peck, Morton Goulder, Morgan Reynolds, PhD, Paul Craig Roberts, PhD, Catherine Austin Fitts, John Loftus, George Kenney, Fred Burks, Daniel Ellsberg, PhD, Philip J. Berg, Esquire, Major General Albert Stubblebine, U.S. Army (ret), Col. Ronald D. Ray, U.S. Marine Corps (ret), Col. Robert Bowman, PhD, U.S. Air Force (ret), Col. George Nelson, U.S. Air Force (ret), Major Douglas Rokke, PhD, U.S. Army (ret), Capt. Russ Wittenberg, U.S. Air Force, Lt. Col. Karen U. Kwiatkowski, PhD, U.S. Air Force (ret), Barbara Honegger, Lt. Col. Stephen L. Butler, EdD, U.S. Air Force (ret), Lt. Col. Anthony Shaffer, U.S. Army Reserve, Capt. Scott J. Phillpott, U.S. Navy, Major John M. Newman, PhD, U.S. Army (ret), Major Scott Ritter, U.S. Marine Corps, Capt. Gregory M. Zeigler, PhD, U.S. Army, Capt. Eric H. May, U.S. Army (ret), Raymond L. McGovern, William Christison, Robert David Steele (Vivas), Melvin A. Goodman, Robert Baer, Sibel D. Edmonds, Bogdan Dzakovic, Edward J. Costello, Jr., John M. Cole, David "Mark" Conrad, Rosemary N. Dew, Bogdan Dzakovic, Sibel D. Edmonds, Steve Elson, David Forbes, Melvin A. Goodman, Mark Graf, Gilbert M. Graham, Diane Kleiman, Lt. Col. Karen U. Kwiatkowski, PhD, U.S. Air Force (ret), Lynne A. Larkin, David MacMichael, Raymond L. McGovern, Theodore J. Pahle, Behrooz Sarshar, Brian F. Sullivan, Commander Larry J. Tortorich, U.S. Navy (ret), Jane A. Turner, John B. Vincent, Dr. Fred Whitehurst, Col. Ann Wright, U.S. Army (ret), Matthew J. Zipoli, Paul Hellyer, Michael Meacher, Andreas von Buelow, PhD, Horst Ehmke, General Leonid Ivashov, Francesco Cossiga, General Pervez Musharraf, General Mirza Aslam Beg, Mohamed Hassanein Heikal, Paul Lannoye, Col. Pierre-Henri Bunel, French Army (ret), David Shayler, Thomas H. Kean, Chairman, 9/11 Commission, Lee Hamilton, Vice Chairman, 9/11 Commission, Timothy J. Roemer, PhD, 9/11 Commissioner, Jamie S. Gorelick, 9/11 Commissioner, John J. Farmer, Jr., Senior Counsel, 9/11 Commission, Peter Rundlet, Counsel for the 9/11 Commission.

William Rodriguez – WTC survivor, Hero, Phillip Morelli – WTC survivor, Mike Pecoraro – WTC survivor. Joe Shearin – WTC survivo,r Tom Elliot - WTC survivor. Frank A. DeMartini – WTC victim. Janette MacKinlay – WTC survivor. Chief Frank Cruthers – WTC survivor. Chief Albert Turi, Jr. – WTC survivor. Assistant Fire Commissioner Stephen Gregory – WTC survivor. Assistant Fire Commissioner James Drury – WTC survivor. Captain Dennis Tardio – WTC survivor. Firefighter Patrick Zoda – WTC Survivor. Captain Karin DeShore – WTC survivor. Firefighter Lou Cacchioli – WTC survivor. Firefighter Richard Banaciski – WTC survivor. Firefighter Kenneth Rogers – WTC survivor. Firefighter Edward Cachia – WTC survivor. Firefighter Joseph W. Montaperto – FDNY, Engine 280 and Ladder 132, Prospect Park. Megan Bartlett – WTC survivor. Kevin Shea – WTC survivor. Officer Craig Bartmer – WTC survivor. Detective Thomas M. Inman – WTC survivor. Jean Hunt – Pentagon survivor. April Gallop, Administrative Specialist, U.S. Army, and Elisha Gallop – Pentagon survivors. Lt. Col. Karen U. Kwiatkowski, PhD, U.S. Air Force (ret) – Pentagon survivor. Steve DeChiaro – Pentagon survivor. Bill Doyle – Father of Joseph Doyle, Donna Marsh O'Connor – Mother of Vanessa Lang Langer, Cristina Kminek – Sister of Mari-Rae Sopper, Marion Kminek – Mother of Mari-Rae Sopper, Michelle Little – Sister of Firefighter David M. Weiss, Bob McIlvaine – Father of Robert McIlvaine, Colleen Kelly – Sister of Bill Kelly, Jr., Barry Zelman – Brother of Kenneth Zelman, Kristen Breitweiser – Wife of Ronald Michael Breitweiser, Patty Casazza – Wife of John F. Casazza, Lorie Van Auken – Wife of Kenneth Van Auken, Mindy Kleinberg – Wife of Allan Kleinberg, Patricia Perry – Mother of Officer John W. Perry, Esq., Monica Gabrielle – Wife of Richard S. Gabrielle, Sally Regenhard – Mother of Firefighter Christian Michael Otto Regenhard, Ellen Mariani – Wife of Neil Mariani, Daniel Wallace (1984 - 2007) – Son of Lt. Robert Wallace, *


Joanne Barbara – Wife of Assistant Chief Gerard Barbara, FDNY

Gayle Barker – Sister of William A. Karnes, Marsh & McLennan, WTC North Tower

Michele Bergsohn – Wife of Alvin Bergsohn, Cantor Fitzgerald, WTC North Tower

Derrill Bodley – Father of Deora Bodley, passenger on United Flight 93

Kathryn C. Bowden – Sister of Thomas H. Bowden, Jr., Cantor Fitzgerald, WTC North Tower, 104th floor

Janet Calia – Wife of Dominick Calia, Cantor Fitzgerald, WTC North Tower

Maggie Cashman – Wife of William Joseph Cashman, United Flight 93

Lynne Castrianno Galante – Sister of Leonard Castrianno, Cantor Fitzgerald, WTC North Tower, 105th floor

Elza Chapa-McGowan – Daughter of Rosemary Chapa, Defense Intelligence Agency, Pentagon

Bruce De Cell – Father-in-law of Mark Petrocelli, broker, Carr Futures, WTC North Tower, 92nd floor

Ralph D'Esposito – Father of Michael D'Esposito, Marsh & McLennan, WTC North Tower, 96th floor

Loisanne Diehl – Wife of Michael D. Diehl, Vice President, Fiduciary Trust, WTC South Tower, 90th floor

Adina D. Eisenberg – Sister of Eric Eisenberg, Aon Corporation, WTC South Tower

Jonathan M. Fisher – Son of Dr. Gerald Paul "Geep" Fisher, Booz, Allen & Hamilton, Pentagon

Michael J. Fox – Brother of Jeffrey L. Fox, Keefe, Bruyette & Woods, WTC South Tower, 89th floor

Laurel A. Gay – Sister of Peter A. Gay, Vice President, Raytheon, American Flight 11

Irene Golinsky – Wife of Col. Ronald F. Golinski U.S. Army (ret), Pentagon

Lori, Jerry, and Beatrice Guadagno – Sister and Parents of Richard Guadagno, Manager, Humboldt Bay National Wildlife Refuge, United Flight 93

Kristen Hall – Daughter of Firefighter Thomas Kuveikis, FDNY, Squad 252

Kurt D. Horning – Father of Matthew D. Horning, Marsh & McLennan, WTC North Tower, 95th floor

Joel Horwitz – Lost beloved cousin in WTC North Tower

Jean Hunt – Disabled survivor of Pentagon attack (See individual statement.)

Jennifer W. Hunt – Wife of William C. Hunt, Vice President, Euro Brokers, WTC South Tower

John Keating – Son of Barbara Keating, passenger on American Flight 11

L. Russell Keene II – Father of Russ Keene III, Equities Analyst, Keefe Bruyette & Woods, WTC South Tower, 89th floor

Peter Kousoulis – Brother of Danielle Kousoulis, Vice President, Cantor Fitzgerald, WTC North Tower

Paul and Barbara Kirwin – Parents of Glenn Davis Kirwin, Partner, Cantor Fitzgerald, WTC North Tower, 105th floor

Barbara Krukowski-Rastelli – Mother of Firefighter William E. Krukowski, FDNY, Ladder Company 21, Manhattan

Laura and Ira Lassman – Parents of Nicholas C. Lassman, Cantor Fitzgerald, WTC North Tower

Johnny Lee – Husband of Lorraine Greene Lee, Aon Corporation, WTC South Tower, 101st floor

Alicia LeGuillow – Mother of Nestor A. Cintron III, Cantor Fitzgerald, WTC North Tower

Francine Levine – Sister of Adam K. Ruhalter, Controller, Cantor Fitzgerald, WTC North Tower

Ellen Mariani –Wife of Neil Mariani, United Flight 175 (See individual statement.)

Bob McIlvaine – Father of Robert McIlvaine, Assistant Vice President, Merrill Lynch, WTC North Tower, 106th floor (See individual statement.)

Mary McWilliams – Mother of Firefighter Martin E. McWilliams, FDNY, Engine Company 22, Upper East Side

Daryl J. Meehan – Brother of Colleen Ann Barkow, Project Manager, Cantor Fitzgerald, WTC North Tower, 105th floor

Elvira P. Murphy – Wife of Patrick Murphy, Vice President, Marsh & McLennan, WTC North Tower

Jessica Murrow – Wife of Stephen Adams, Manager, Windows on the World, WTC North Tower

Natalee Pecorelli – Sister of Thomas Pecorelli, Cameraman for Fox Sports Net and E! Entertainment Television. American Flight 11

James L Perry, MD, and Patricia J. Perry – Parents of John W. Perry, Esq., NYPD Officer. See also individual statement.

David Potorti – Brother of James Potorti, Vice President, Marsh & McLennan, WTC North Tower, 96th floor

Terry Kay Rockefeller – Sister of Laura Rockefeller, Risk Waters Group, WTC North Tower

Grissel Rodriguez-Valentin – Wife of Benito Valentin, American Express, WTC North Tower, 94th floor

Alissa Rosenberg-Torres – Wife of Luis Eduardo Torres, Senior Broker, Cantor Fitzgerald, WTC North Tower

Ralph & Brigitte Sabbag – Parents of Jason Sabbag, Portfolio Manager, Fiduciary Trust, WTC South Tower

Elaine Saber – Mother of Scott Saber, UBS Warburg, WTC North Tower, 106th floor

Julie Scarpitta – Mother of Michelle Scarpitta, Euro Brokers, WTC South Tower, 84th floor

Paula Shapiro – Mother of Eric Eisenberg, Aon Corporation, WTC South Tower

Kevin Shea – WTC survivor. FDNY Hazmat Operations. Sustained major injuries on 9/11, which forced retirement. (See individual statement.)

Elizabeth Turner – Wife of Simon Turner, Publishing Director, Risk Waters Group, WTC North Tower

Adele Welty – Mother of Firefighter Timothy Welty, FDNY, Squad 288, Queens

Joan W. Winton – Mother of David Winton, Vice President, Keefe, Bruyette & Woods, WTC South Tower, 89th floor

David Yancey – Husband of Vicki Yancey, Vrendenburg Co. American Flight 77

Nissa Youngren – Daughter of Robert G. LeBlanc, Professor Emeritus of Geography, University of New Hampshire. United Flight 175

http://patriotsquestion911.com/

[defaultdotxbe]

yeah good name for us.... all of us, some of which include...

Rep. Curt Weldon, Senator Max Cleland, Senator Bob Graham , Senator Mark Dayton, Louis Freeh, Edward L. Peck, Morton Goulder, Morgan Reynolds, PhD, Paul Craig Roberts, PhD, Catherine Austin Fitts, John Loftus, George Kenney, Fred Burks, Daniel Ellsberg, PhD, Philip J. Berg, Esquire, Major General Albert Stubblebine, U.S. Army (ret), Col. Ronald D. Ray, U.S. Marine Corps (ret), Col. Robert Bowman, PhD, U.S. Air Force (ret), Col. George Nelson, U.S. Air Force (ret), Major Douglas Rokke, PhD, U.S. Army (ret), Capt. Russ Wittenberg, U.S. Air Force, Lt. Col. Karen U. Kwiatkowski, PhD, U.S. Air Force (ret), Barbara Honegger, Lt. Col. Stephen L. Butler, EdD, U.S. Air Force (ret), Lt. Col. Anthony Shaffer, U.S. Army Reserve, Capt. Scott J. Phillpott, U.S. Navy, Major John M. Newman, PhD, U.S. Army (ret), Major Scott Ritter, U.S. Marine Corps, Capt. Gregory M. Zeigler, PhD, U.S. Army, Capt. Eric H. May, U.S. Army (ret), Raymond L. McGovern, William Christison, Robert David Steele (Vivas), Melvin A. Goodman, Robert Baer, Sibel D. Edmonds, Bogdan Dzakovic, Edward J. Costello, Jr., John M. Cole, David "Mark" Conrad, Rosemary N. Dew, Bogdan Dzakovic, Sibel D. Edmonds, Steve Elson, David Forbes, Melvin A. Goodman, Mark Graf, Gilbert M. Graham, Diane Kleiman, Lt. Col. Karen U. Kwiatkowski, PhD, U.S. Air Force (ret), Lynne A. Larkin, David MacMichael, Raymond L. McGovern, Theodore J. Pahle, Behrooz Sarshar, Brian F. Sullivan, Commander Larry J. Tortorich, U.S. Navy (ret), Jane A. Turner, John B. Vincent, Dr. Fred Whitehurst, Col. Ann Wright, U.S. Army (ret), Matthew J. Zipoli, Paul Hellyer, Michael Meacher, Andreas von Buelow, PhD, Horst Ehmke, General Leonid Ivashov, Francesco Cossiga, General Pervez Musharraf, General Mirza Aslam Beg, Mohamed Hassanein Heikal, Paul Lannoye, Col. Pierre-Henri Bunel, French Army (ret), David Shayler, Thomas H. Kean, Chairman, 9/11 Commission, Lee Hamilton, Vice Chairman, 9/11 Commission, Timothy J. Roemer, PhD, 9/11 Commissioner, Jamie S. Gorelick, 9/11 Commissioner, John J. Farmer, Jr., Senior Counsel, 9/11 Commission, Peter Rundlet, Counsel for the 9/11 Commission.

William Rodriguez – WTC survivor, Hero, Phillip Morelli – WTC survivor, Mike Pecoraro – WTC survivor. Joe Shearin – WTC survivo,r Tom Elliot - WTC survivor. Frank A. DeMartini – WTC victim. Janette MacKinlay – WTC survivor. Chief Frank Cruthers – WTC survivor. Chief Albert Turi, Jr. – WTC survivor. Assistant Fire Commissioner Stephen Gregory – WTC survivor. Assistant Fire Commissioner James Drury – WTC survivor. Captain Dennis Tardio – WTC survivor. Firefighter Patrick Zoda – WTC Survivor. Captain Karin DeShore – WTC survivor. Firefighter Lou Cacchioli – WTC survivor. Firefighter Richard Banaciski – WTC survivor. Firefighter Kenneth Rogers – WTC survivor. Firefighter Edward Cachia – WTC survivor. Firefighter Joseph W. Montaperto – FDNY, Engine 280 and Ladder 132, Prospect Park. Megan Bartlett – WTC survivor. Kevin Shea – WTC survivor. Officer Craig Bartmer – WTC survivor. Detective Thomas M. Inman – WTC survivor. Jean Hunt – Pentagon survivor. April Gallop, Administrative Specialist, U.S. Army, and Elisha Gallop – Pentagon survivors. Lt. Col. Karen U. Kwiatkowski, PhD, U.S. Air Force (ret) – Pentagon survivor. Steve DeChiaro – Pentagon survivor. Bill Doyle – Father of Joseph Doyle, Donna Marsh O'Connor – Mother of Vanessa Lang Langer, Cristina Kminek – Sister of Mari-Rae Sopper, Marion Kminek – Mother of Mari-Rae Sopper, Michelle Little – Sister of Firefighter David M. Weiss, Bob McIlvaine – Father of Robert McIlvaine, Colleen Kelly – Sister of Bill Kelly, Jr., Barry Zelman – Brother of Kenneth Zelman, Kristen Breitweiser – Wife of Ronald Michael Breitweiser, Patty Casazza – Wife of John F. Casazza, Lorie Van Auken – Wife of Kenneth Van Auken, Mindy Kleinberg – Wife of Allan Kleinberg, Patricia Perry – Mother of Officer John W. Perry, Esq., Monica Gabrielle – Wife of Richard S. Gabrielle, Sally Regenhard – Mother of Firefighter Christian Michael Otto Regenhard, Ellen Mariani – Wife of Neil Mariani, Daniel Wallace (1984 - 2007) – Son of Lt. Robert Wallace, *


Joanne Barbara – Wife of Assistant Chief Gerard Barbara, FDNY

Gayle Barker – Sister of William A. Karnes, Marsh & McLennan, WTC North Tower

Michele Bergsohn – Wife of Alvin Bergsohn, Cantor Fitzgerald, WTC North Tower

Derrill Bodley – Father of Deora Bodley, passenger on United Flight 93

Kathryn C. Bowden – Sister of Thomas H. Bowden, Jr., Cantor Fitzgerald, WTC North Tower, 104th floor

Janet Calia – Wife of Dominick Calia, Cantor Fitzgerald, WTC North Tower

Maggie Cashman – Wife of William Joseph Cashman, United Flight 93

Lynne Castrianno Galante – Sister of Leonard Castrianno, Cantor Fitzgerald, WTC North Tower, 105th floor

Elza Chapa-McGowan – Daughter of Rosemary Chapa, Defense Intelligence Agency, Pentagon

Bruce De Cell – Father-in-law of Mark Petrocelli, broker, Carr Futures, WTC North Tower, 92nd floor

Ralph D'Esposito – Father of Michael D'Esposito, Marsh & McLennan, WTC North Tower, 96th floor

Loisanne Diehl – Wife of Michael D. Diehl, Vice President, Fiduciary Trust, WTC South Tower, 90th floor

Adina D. Eisenberg – Sister of Eric Eisenberg, Aon Corporation, WTC South Tower

Jonathan M. Fisher – Son of Dr. Gerald Paul "Geep" Fisher, Booz, Allen & Hamilton, Pentagon

Michael J. Fox – Brother of Jeffrey L. Fox, Keefe, Bruyette & Woods, WTC South Tower, 89th floor

Laurel A. Gay – Sister of Peter A. Gay, Vice President, Raytheon, American Flight 11

Irene Golinsky – Wife of Col. Ronald F. Golinski U.S. Army (ret), Pentagon

Lori, Jerry, and Beatrice Guadagno – Sister and Parents of Richard Guadagno, Manager, Humboldt Bay National Wildlife Refuge, United Flight 93

Kristen Hall – Daughter of Firefighter Thomas Kuveikis, FDNY, Squad 252

Kurt D. Horning – Father of Matthew D. Horning, Marsh & McLennan, WTC North Tower, 95th floor

Joel Horwitz – Lost beloved cousin in WTC North Tower

Jean Hunt – Disabled survivor of Pentagon attack (See individual statement.)

Jennifer W. Hunt – Wife of William C. Hunt, Vice President, Euro Brokers, WTC South Tower

John Keating – Son of Barbara Keating, passenger on American Flight 11

L. Russell Keene II – Father of Russ Keene III, Equities Analyst, Keefe Bruyette & Woods, WTC South Tower, 89th floor

Peter Kousoulis – Brother of Danielle Kousoulis, Vice President, Cantor Fitzgerald, WTC North Tower

Paul and Barbara Kirwin – Parents of Glenn Davis Kirwin, Partner, Cantor Fitzgerald, WTC North Tower, 105th floor

Barbara Krukowski-Rastelli – Mother of Firefighter William E. Krukowski, FDNY, Ladder Company 21, Manhattan

Laura and Ira Lassman – Parents of Nicholas C. Lassman, Cantor Fitzgerald, WTC North Tower

Johnny Lee – Husband of Lorraine Greene Lee, Aon Corporation, WTC South Tower, 101st floor

Alicia LeGuillow – Mother of Nestor A. Cintron III, Cantor Fitzgerald, WTC North Tower

Francine Levine – Sister of Adam K. Ruhalter, Controller, Cantor Fitzgerald, WTC North Tower

Ellen Mariani –Wife of Neil Mariani, United Flight 175 (See individual statement.)

Bob McIlvaine – Father of Robert McIlvaine, Assistant Vice President, Merrill Lynch, WTC North Tower, 106th floor (See individual statement.)

Mary McWilliams – Mother of Firefighter Martin E. McWilliams, FDNY, Engine Company 22, Upper East Side

Daryl J. Meehan – Brother of Colleen Ann Barkow, Project Manager, Cantor Fitzgerald, WTC North Tower, 105th floor

Elvira P. Murphy – Wife of Patrick Murphy, Vice President, Marsh & McLennan, WTC North Tower

Jessica Murrow – Wife of Stephen Adams, Manager, Windows on the World, WTC North Tower

Natalee Pecorelli – Sister of Thomas Pecorelli, Cameraman for Fox Sports Net and E! Entertainment Television. American Flight 11

James L Perry, MD, and Patricia J. Perry – Parents of John W. Perry, Esq., NYPD Officer. See also individual statement.

David Potorti – Brother of James Potorti, Vice President, Marsh & McLennan, WTC North Tower, 96th floor

Terry Kay Rockefeller – Sister of Laura Rockefeller, Risk Waters Group, WTC North Tower

Grissel Rodriguez-Valentin – Wife of Benito Valentin, American Express, WTC North Tower, 94th floor

Alissa Rosenberg-Torres – Wife of Luis Eduardo Torres, Senior Broker, Cantor Fitzgerald, WTC North Tower

Ralph & Brigitte Sabbag – Parents of Jason Sabbag, Portfolio Manager, Fiduciary Trust, WTC South Tower

Elaine Saber – Mother of Scott Saber, UBS Warburg, WTC North Tower, 106th floor

Julie Scarpitta – Mother of Michelle Scarpitta, Euro Brokers, WTC South Tower, 84th floor

Paula Shapiro – Mother of Eric Eisenberg, Aon Corporation, WTC South Tower

Kevin Shea – WTC survivor. FDNY Hazmat Operations. Sustained major injuries on 9/11, which forced retirement. (See individual statement.)

Elizabeth Turner – Wife of Simon Turner, Publishing Director, Risk Waters Group, WTC North Tower

Adele Welty – Mother of Firefighter Timothy Welty, FDNY, Squad 288, Queens

Joan W. Winton – Mother of David Winton, Vice President, Keefe, Bruyette & Woods, WTC South Tower, 89th floor

David Yancey – Husband of Vicki Yancey, Vrendenburg Co. American Flight 77

Nissa Youngren – Daughter of Robert G. LeBlanc, Professor Emeritus of Geography, University of New Hampshire. United Flight 175

http://patriotsquestion911.com/
if they al believe in controlled demolition then yes, they are all nuts

although every other time one of these lists has been posted it turned out most of them just think the government screwd up royal in allowing it to happen, nothing to do with complicity

[Gravy]

Argumentum ad populum.

But while you're at it, please free to provide a list of those people who believe that 9/11 was an inside job.

[FatesWebb]

if they al believe in controlled demolition then yes, they are all nuts

although every other time one of these lists has been posted it turned out most of them just think the government screwd up royal in allowing it to happen, nothing to do with complicity

all of them believe that the official investigation was botched, like 99% believe the government covered it up/lied... even if the initial investigation was botched then there should be a new one..

that is all there should be a new one...

[Gravy]

if they al believe in controlled demolition then yes, they are all nutsOr they are terribly misinformed by conspiracy liars. Fortunately they don't all believe in controlled demolition. I await your list, with backup, of those that do.

[Alt+F4]

yeah good name for us.... all of us, some of which include...

Which of the people on that list has said in clear English that the attacks against the United States on September 11, 2001 were NOT carried out by 19 Islamic terrorists? Please be specific and provide links.

[kookbreaker]

Cripes, maybe I need to revamp the 911 CT drinking game... (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=56850&highlight=drinking)

[Gravy]

all of them believe that the official investigation was botched, like 99% believe the government covered it up/lied... even if the initial investigation was botched then there should be a new one..

And none have provided any evidence that this is so.

Do you ever get anything right, FatesWebb? Ever?

I'm curious to know how old you are, if you don't mind saying.

[defaultdotxbe]

Or they are terribly misinformed by conspiracy liars. Fortunately they don't all believe in controlled demolition. I await your list, with backup, of those that do.
yeah, i googled the first guy on the list (former rep curt weldon) turns out he just says that mohamad atta had been identified before 9/11, and based on this the attacks should have been prevented, no MIHOP, not even LIHOP, just a big screwup that he probably thinks someone should be held accountable for

[HyJinX]

worth a repost methinks...

Here ya go, Fates, I believe this is yours...

[Gamolon]

FatesWebb,

Where did you get the structural steel drawings of the core detailing the connections and showing the bills of material used to construct them?

[funk de fino]

astm-e119 is a certification that makes it to where the building does not allow fire to spread across floors.

oops brought this from the other thread

was this a little wrong wording fateswebb, or in fact, just wrong?

[jaydeehess]

that is simply not true

My collapse duration of 8 and 10 seconds, came FROM THE FEMA REPORT, AND THE 9/11 report.... and seismic data, proven in videos at http://video.google.com/videoplay?d...980438587461603 1:25:58, 1:04:56 1:13:30 and 1:38:11 or by checking the reports yourself.

http://www.fema.gov/pdf/library/fema403_ch1.pdf
Fema Report: Chapter 1 1-10 Table 1.1 Timeline of major events
TIMELINE OF MAJOR EVENTS:
Start time: 9:59:04 EDT: signal duration 10 seconds: WTC2 Began collapsing after 56 minutes, 10 seconds.

Start time: 9:59:04 EDT: signal duration 8 seconds: WTC1 Began collapsing after 102 minutes, 5 seconds.

then it does go on and say "based on seismic recordings made by the Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory of Columbia University."

http://img121.imagevenue.com/loc312/th_95055_FemaCollapseTimes_122_312lo.JPG (http://img121.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=95055_FemaCollapseTimes_122_312lo.JP G)
On page 305 of the 9/11 Commission Report,
http://www.9-11commission.gov/report/911Report.pdf we are told, in the government's complete and final report of 9/11, that the South Tower collapsed in 10 seconds. (That's the government's official number. Videos confirm that it fell unnaturally, if not precisely that, fast. See for yourself:


also you have the seismic data:

data from:http://www.ldeo.columbia.edu/LCSN/Eq/20010911_wtc.html

Date Origin Time (UTC) Magnitude (Richter scale) Time (EDT) Dominant Period Signal Duration Remark
09/11/2001 13:59:04±1 2.1 09:59:04 0.8 sec 10 seconds first collapse
09/11/2001 14:28:31±1 2.3 10:28:31 0.9 sec 8 seconds second collapse

It has been explained to you that the signal duration is not the same as the collapse duration

i put it in terms that I thought you would apreciate when I mentioned that the signal duration for the collapse of WTC 7 greatly exceeds the commonly cited collapse time given by CT's as 6.6 seconds. In that I had hoped that you would see the error in using the seismic signal duration as the collapse time. To no avail it seems.

You also misrepresent what the 911 Commission Report said. It said the buildings fell in "ten seconds". That is they wrote out the word "ten". If they had intended to be technically accurate they would have given it as "10" or more properly "10.0". The statement was never meant to be a technically accurate number, instead it is a round number that conveys all the information one really needs, the buildings collapsed quickly.

[funk de fino]

he does not have as built, per the dictionary definition, blueprints

he has something else

[Gravy]

he does not have as built, per the dictionary definition, blueprints

he has something elseThe same old north tower architectural drawings that Dylan Avery trumpeted as the find of the century, only to realize what they actually were. They were, however, very useful to me in destroying the conspiracists arguments about jet fuel in the elevator shafts, and more recently, Gordon Ross' argument about accessibility of core columns from elevator shafts. Hoist by their own petard yet again!

[bonavada]

what is the source of this picture, it appears to be photoshopped, as well as I have never seen this before, can you provide a video with this in it?

take a look here (http://amanzafar.no-ip.com/WTC/) it's a zoom of an image of the second collapse. this set of images have been online at this site for many months (years i believe)
do you really think these are photoshopped? the website author took the pics himself. he assures visitors that they totally unaltered photos....

ALL PICS ARE SCANNED AS IS. NO SPECIAL EFFECTS HAVE BEEN USED. I DID NOT EVEN SHARPEN THEM


perhaps you should e-mail the photographer with your concerns. please let us know how you get on.
here's another zoom from that sequence that shows the core "still standing":-

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/8748453c042018e89.jpg

BV

[einsteen]

really so elementary mechanics say that the BIG part instead of the little part will break? can you show me a paper about this?
You're right, I couldn't find the original picture, but there was once such a picture in an official pre-NIST pre-FEMA report, but you are right. At least the first 15 stories it is the core itself that fails first, there is no other way around it, I found a 4 seconds movie of the top of wtc1 in which the antenna's movement proves that it is still connected to the hat truss,
the columns give resistance during that fall of 15 stories, but they don't prick through the hat truss. THE CORE IS destroyed in the beginning.
The initiation is officially caused by buckling of perimeter columns but after that initiation the core fails. In an interview with a NIST spokesman he even said it explicitly, the core failed. No I'm not on the side of the official story.

[jaydeehess]

all of them believe that the official investigation was botched, like 99% believe the government covered it up/lied... even if the initial investigation was botched then there should be a new one..

that is all there should be a new one...

I believe that anal protective measures were employed by many people and agencies too. For instance the sweetheart deals concerning fire and building codes that the PANYNJ enjoyed which were more lax than the NYC codes has been mentioned by many people and is even touched on by NIST. It has been swept under the rug. This is one of the great issues that fire fighters want looked at. Neither I nor the fire fighting community as a whole believe that the buildings were brought down by controlled demolitions though.

[Gamolon]

he does not have as built, per the dictionary definition, blueprints

he has something else

Are these drawings that are available on the 9-11 Research website? If so, these are architectural drawings not structural steel drawings. The drawings actually call out Gypsum board ceilings, tile ceilings, bathroom wall dimensions, etc.

I see nothing in these drawings pertaining to the structural steel details used to construct the core.

FatesWebb, how can you determine the core was "intertwined" from architectural drawings? Unless I am missing the drawings that show this.

[FatesWebb]

yeah, i googled the first guy on the list (former rep curt weldon) turns out he just says that mohamad atta had been identified before 9/11, and based on this the attacks should have been prevented, no MIHOP, not even LIHOP, just a big screwup that he probably thinks someone should be held accountable for

# Article Fox News 8/28/05: Regarding the 9/11 Commission "There's something very sinister going on here that really troubles me," Weldon told FOX News on Thursday, blasting the Sept. 11 commission for not taking the claims more seriously. He said some panel members were trying to smear [Lt. Col. Anthony] Shaffer and Able Danger. "What's the Sept. 11 commission got to hide?" Weldon asked." http://www.foxnews.com


# Press conference transcript 9/17/05: Regarding the 9/11 Commission Report "There's something wrong here, something tragically wrong. The American people, the families, the country and the Congress need to know the truth, the whole truth, the complete truth. And so far we haven't gotten it. … Somebody's got to connect the dots and answer the questions. If the 9/11 Commission won't do it, then Congress has to do it." http://www.gl


# Speech on the floor of Congress 10/19/05: "I am not a conspiracy theorist, but there is something desperately wrong, Mr. Speaker. There is something outrageous at work here. This is not a third-rate burglary of a political campaign headquarters. This involved what is right now the covering up of information that led to the deaths of 3,000 people, changed the course of history, led to the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan, and has disrupted our country, our economy and people's lives." http://frwebgate


# Editor's note: The 9/11 Commission Report asserts that only three of the alleged hijackers were known to U.S. intelligence agencies prior to 9/11; Nawaf al-Hazmi, Salem al-Hazmi, and Khalid al-Mihdar. There is no mention in the Report that the names and photographs of alleged hijacker Marwan al-Shehhi and alleged ring-leader Mohamed Atta had been identified by the Department of Defense antiterrorist program known as Able Danger more than a year prior to 9/11 and that they were known to be affiliates of al-Qaida. Able Danger also identified Nawaf al-Hazmi and Khalid al-Mihdar. http://www.foxnews.com. See also Louis Freeh, Lt. Col. Anthony Shaffer, Cap. Scott J. Phillpott, Major Erik Kleinsmith, and James D. Smith.

[Pardalis]

Still no mention of CD.

[defaultdotxbe]

# Article Fox News 8/28/05: Regarding the 9/11 Commission "There's something very sinister going on here that really troubles me," Weldon told FOX News on Thursday, blasting the Sept. 11 commission for not taking the claims more seriously. He said some panel members were trying to smear [Lt. Col. Anthony] Shaffer and Able Danger. "What's the Sept. 11 commission got to hide?" Weldon asked." http://www.foxnews.com


# Press conference transcript 9/17/05: Regarding the 9/11 Commission Report "There's something wrong here, something tragically wrong. The American people, the families, the country and the Congress need to know the truth, the whole truth, the complete truth. And so far we haven't gotten it. … Somebody's got to connect the dots and answer the questions. If the 9/11 Commission won't do it, then Congress has to do it." http://www.gl


# Speech on the floor of Congress 10/19/05: "I am not a conspiracy theorist, but there is something desperately wrong, Mr. Speaker. There is something outrageous at work here. This is not a third-rate burglary of a political campaign headquarters. This involved what is right now the covering up of information that led to the deaths of 3,000 people, changed the course of history, led to the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan, and has disrupted our country, our economy and people's lives." http://frwebgate


# Editor's note: The 9/11 Commission Report asserts that only three of the alleged hijackers were known to U.S. intelligence agencies prior to 9/11; Nawaf al-Hazmi, Salem al-Hazmi, and Khalid al-Mihdar. There is no mention in the Report that the names and photographs of alleged hijacker Marwan al-Shehhi and alleged ring-leader Mohamed Atta had been identified by the Department of Defense antiterrorist program known as Able Danger more than a year prior to 9/11 and that they were known to be affiliates of al-Qaida. Able Danger also identified Nawaf al-Hazmi and Khalid al-Mihdar. http://www.foxnews.com. See also Louis Freeh, Lt. Col. Anthony Shaffer, Cap. Scott J. Phillpott, Major Erik Kleinsmith, and James D. Smith.
nice copy and paste job, in which of those does he say the USG was directly responsible? where does he say controlled demolition? where does he say 9/11 was anything other than a terrorist attack?

[Gravy]

nice copy and paste job, in which of those does he say the USG was directly responsible? where does he say controlled demolition? where does he say 9/11 was anything other than a terrorist attack?I know it's a rhetorical question, but the answer, in case FatesWebb doesn't know it, is that Weldon doesn't believe those things. He was concerned that the government was covering up evidence that they were tracking some of the hijackers, particularly Atta, before 9/11. Investigations did not bear out his claim, and Weldon has not pursued it since.

Yet another strike against the twoof. Is this what they meant when they called for a general strike on 9/11? A day to get everything wrong?

[FatesWebb]

It has been explained to you that the signal duration is not the same as the collapse duration

i put it in terms that I thought you would apreciate when I mentioned that the signal duration for the collapse of WTC 7 greatly exceeds the commonly cited collapse time given by CT's as 6.6 seconds. In that I had hoped that you would see the error in using the seismic signal duration as the collapse time. To no avail it seems.

You also misrepresent what the 911 Commission Report said. It said the buildings fell in "ten seconds". That is they wrote out the word "ten". If they had intended to be technically accurate they would have given it as "10" or more properly "10.0". The statement was never meant to be a technically accurate number, instead it is a round number that conveys all the information one really needs, the buildings collapsed quickly.

if you watch the video and count, it is that fast, you can argue the fema, seismology, and 9/11 commission reports all you want, but in the end you cannot argue the video it is there calling you a liar.

[Gravy]

take a look here (http://amanzafar.no-ip.com/WTC/) it's a zoom of an image of the second collapse. this set of images have been online at this site for many months (years i believe)
do you really think these are photoshopped? the website author took the pics himself. he assures visitors that they totally unaltered photos....

perhaps you should e-mail the photographer with your concerns. please let us know how you get on.
here's another zoom from that sequence that shows the core "still standing":-

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/8748453c042018e89.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/8748453c042018e89.jpg)


More photos of the tower cores before, during, and after 9/11:
Tower core construction photos, plans, column specs, drywall installation (http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/wtccoreconstruction)

[Gravy]

if you watch the video and count, it is that fast, you can argue the fema, seismology, and 9/11 commission reports all you want, but in the end you cannot argue the video it is there calling you a liar.
Answer this question now. How long is it from the start of the collapse of WTC 7's east mechanical penthouse until the building is obscured by dust?

Answer it.

[pomeroo]

Wow. A “not” joke. I haven’t seen one of those in years.


Well, to be fair, you probably haven't been in high school for years.

[FatesWebb]

take a look here (http://amanzafar.no-ip.com/WTC/) it's a zoom of an image of the second collapse. this set of images have been online at this site for many months (years i believe)
do you really think these are photoshopped? the website author took the pics himself. he assures visitors that they totally unaltered photos....




perhaps you should e-mail the photographer with your concerns. please let us know how you get on.
here's another zoom from that sequence that shows the core "still standing":-

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/8748453c042018e89.jpg

BV

that is only about 1/4th of the core, and it only stands for about 2 seconds longer bringing total collapse to about 14 seconds, I really dont see how it is proving anything. as that collapse time is still quite impossible without explosives.

The video that that picture comes from has sound, and the sound has the explosions in it, as well as the entire video proves the controlled demolition theory, since you consider it such a valid source of information... why not debunk all of the points the video brings up that are impossible without explosives?

at about 00:06:04 the pyroclastic flow is seen overtaking manhattan, and at 00:23:13 it begins to flow onto the hudson river. This is caused by the sever heat in the collapse, which is WAY OVER what was possible with jet fuel.

again you see the same pyroclastic flow at 38:28 for the collapse of the second tower. 39:10 is has completely taken over everything.
00:48:44 - the video proves the freefall collapse theory

1:04:56 again it proves the freefall collapse. this time with wtc7.

1:07:49 shows more volcanic like activity, due to explosive energy.
1:08:31 - 1:11:10 discusses pyroclastic flows. It mentions that it is a ground hugging avalanche of hot gas and debris. would require explosive energy.



at 1:11:30 it shows the video FROM WITHIN the pyroclastic flow.

1:13:30 and 1:38:11 again it proves the freefall with wtc7 this time it using basic science to prove it.

1:20:50 it shows upward explosions, which obviously would require explosive energy to occur. this creates a upward 45 degree trajectory path for debris(1:22:18), as documented in the video this is clearly impossible without explosives. also it shows debris being shot far 600 ft away from the building.

1:25:32 shows debris ejected 600 ft through the air.

My collapse duration of 8 and 10 seconds, came FROM THE FEMA REPORT.... seismic data,proven at 1:25:58 or by checking the report yourself.

1:33:55 discusses the inertia defeated by explosives observation.

[T.A.M.]

if you watch the video and count, it is that fast, you can argue the fema, seismology, and 9/11 commission reports all you want, but in the end you cannot argue the video it is there calling you a liar.

Please show me a video that shows the collapse of either tower, for its entirety, and where the tower is visible for the entire collapse.

If you cannot, then the "times" are guesses at best. yes they are probably Relatively accurate, but not precisely, by a long shot. The cloud of dust and smoke obscures a view of the towers for the last several seconds of collapse, which people have "estimated" based on the rate of fall visualized prior to the obscurement. Now this, COMBINED with the seismic data can give a better picture, but it is still an "estimate"

TAM:)

[Hokulele]

at about 00:06:04 the pyroclastic flow is seen overtaking manhattan, and at 00:23:13 it begins to flow onto the hudson river. This is caused by the sever heat in the collapse, which is WAY OVER what was possible with jet fuel.

again you see the same pyroclastic flow at 38:28 for the collapse of the second tower. 39:10 is has completely taken over everything.
00:48:44 - the video proves the freefall collapse theory

1:04:56 again it proves the freefall collapse. this time with wtc7.

1:07:49 shows more volcanic like activity, due to explosive energy.
1:08:31 - 1:11:10 discusses pyroclastic flows. It mentions that it is a ground hugging avalanche of hot gas and debris. would require explosive energy.



at 1:11:30 it shows the video FROM WITHIN the pyroclastic flow.


Stop it! There was NO pyroclastic flow in Manhattan. These are ONLY associated with volcanoes. If you truly believe this to be a pyroclastic flow, show evidence of the high temperatures and velocities normally associated with them.

[pomeroo]

actually, that is not true, I am willing to admit that the construction of the cores did not preceed more than ten stories as suggested above the shell.

I am willing to admit things when they are reasonable, and even shown or proven. However thus far that is the only point that has been shown..

Well actually I think maybe this point of this whole thread is irrelevant anyways, but the fact is if you look at 9/11 objectively you will find that the official story does not add up, it defies science in many ways that we already touched on in the other thread. Ways that you have been unable to debunk, or explain. So while the core columns argument may be a weak one, the actual freefall collapse and temperatures at the wtc are not. I still feel that I won those arguments presented in the other thread.

Either way, you don't know me, and you cannot say what I will do, or such. I honestly don't appreciate it..

This actually says a little about you, are you sure that you have really looked at the information? you have already made your mind up about me, and you just met me.

I used to be just like you, out to prove the CT wrong, but the one thing where I was different was I had an open mind.



An open mind is not an empty mind. You may lack the former, but you are proud to exhibit the latter.

Incidentally, there is no such animal as the "official" story, but you already knew that.

[FatesWebb]

I know it's a rhetorical question, but the answer, in case FatesWebb doesn't know it, is that Weldon doesn't believe those things. He was concerned that the government was covering up evidence that they were tracking some of the hijackers, particularly Atta, before 9/11. Investigations did not bear out his claim, and Weldon has not pursued it since.

Yet another strike against the twoof. Is this what they meant when they called for a general strike on 9/11? A day to get everything wrong?

yep covering up of foreknowledge, while it doesn't show complicity, it is a crime.

every heard of sibel edmunds?
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4464861018309982614

what are they hiding if they are not complicit?

[Gravy]

at about 00:06:04 the pyroclastic flow is seen overtaking manhattan

:dl:

Keep 'em coming, Fates! :not_ripe:

[Pardalis]

Stop it! There was NO pyroclastic flow in Manhatten. These are ONLY associated with volcanoes. If you truly believe this to be a pyroclasitc flow, show evidence of the high temperatures and velocities normally associated with them.

What does an Hawaiian know about volcanoes? :rolleyes:

[FatesWebb]

Answer this question now. How long is it from the start of the collapse of WTC 7's east mechanical penthouse until the building is obscured by dust?

Answer it.

the total collapse was 6.3 seconds

[Gravy]

yep covering up of foreknowledge, while it doesn't show complicity, it is a crime.

every heard of sibel edmunds?

what are they hiding if they are not complicit?Geez, I wonder how you missed the fact that there's no evidence of any such thing?

Sibel Edmonds? The former FBI translator who doesn't claim 9/11 was an inside job and who does think Islamist terrorists were responsible?

Keep 'em coming, Fates! :not_ripe:

[defaultdotxbe]

yep covering up of foreknowledge, while it doesn't show complicity, it is a crime.

every heard of sibel edmunds?
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4464861018309982614

what are they hiding if they are not complicit?
if thats the case, then what caused the "intertwined" core columns to collapse was a combination of airplane impacts and multifloor fires, and our business in this thread is concluded

would you like to start a criminal negligence thread now? or are you still going to try to have your cake and eat it too?

[FatesWebb]

Please show me a video that shows the collapse of either tower, for its entirety, and where the tower is visible for the entire collapse.

If you cannot, then the "times" are guesses at best. yes they are probably Relatively accurate, but not precisely, by a long shot. The cloud of dust and smoke obscures a view of the towers for the last several seconds of collapse, which people have "estimated" based on the rate of fall visualized prior to the obscurement. Now this, COMBINED with the seismic data can give a better picture, but it is still an "estimate"

TAM:)

still impossible without explosives, proactive removal of resistance.

[Par]

if you watch the video and count, it is that fast, you can argue the fema, seismology, and 9/11 commission reports all you want, but in the end you cannot argue the video it is there calling you a liar.


7190118531505989658


How long, do you think?

[Unsecured Coins]

dude, you got green nannered. STOP.

[Pardalis]

proactive removal of resistance.

Rubbish.

[Arus808]

What does an Hawaiian know about volcanoes? :rolleyes:


^_~ alot more than fates does that for sure . Lets see, how many times throughout my 13 years of school life was the Hawaiian Geology taught to us? Oh, wait...EVERY freaking year.

[pomeroo]

that is only about 1/4th of the core, and it only stands for about 2 seconds longer bringing total collapse to about 14 seconds, I really dont see how it is proving anything. as that collapse time is still quite impossible without explosives.

The video that that picture comes from has sound, and the sound has the explosions in it, as well as the entire video proves the controlled demolition theory, since you consider it such a valid source of information... why not debunk all of the points the video brings up that are impossible without explosives?

at about 00:06:04



the pyroclastic flow



is seen overtaking manhattan, and at 00:23:13 it begins to flow onto the hudson river. This is caused by the sever heat in the collapse, which is WAY OVER what was possible with jet fuel.

again you see the same



pyroclastic flow




at 38:28 for the collapse of the second tower. 39:10 is has completely taken over everything.
00:48:44 - the video proves the freefall collapse theory

1:04:56 again it proves the freefall collapse. this time with wtc7.

1:07:49 shows more volcanic like activity, due to explosive energy.
1:08:31 - 1:11:10 discusses


pyroclastic flows.



It mentions that it is a ground hugging avalanche of hot gas and debris. would require explosive energy.



at 1:11:30 it shows the video FROM WITHIN the pyroclastic flow.

1:13:30 and 1:38:11 again it proves the freefall with wtc7 this time it using basic science to prove it.

1:20:50 it shows upward explosions, which obviously would require explosive energy to occur. this creates a upward 45 degree trajectory path for debris(1:22:18), as documented in the video this is clearly impossible without explosives. also it shows debris being shot far 600 ft away from the building.

1:25:32 shows debris ejected 600 ft through the air.

My collapse duration of 8 and 10 seconds, came FROM THE FEMA REPORT.... seismic data,proven at 1:25:58 or by checking the report yourself.

1:33:55 discusses the inertia defeated by explosives observation.



Wow! A stroll down memory lane! Most conspiracy liars gave up on "pyroclastic flows" years ago. Someone must have explained what the term meant.

You're roughly fourteen years old, right, kid?

[Hokulele]

What does an Hawaiian know about volcanoes? :rolleyes:


Pah, it's bad enough to see psychics trying to hijack quantum mechnical terms. Conspiracy Theorists trying to hijack vulcanology terms are just, well, a bunch of tephra. And I am being magmanimous.

[Gravy]

the total collapse was 6.3 seconds

Keep 'em coming, fates! :dc_biggrin:

You are, of course, horribly wrong. The total visible collapse time was at least 13.5 seconds, and perhaps closer to 15.

[Pardalis]

^_~ alot more than fates does that for sure . Lets see, how many times throughout my 13 years of school life was the Hawaiian Geology taught to us? Oh, wait...EVERY freaking year.

You're Hawaiian too? :eek:

Aloha... :cool:

[mortimer]

Apparently, Avery's Troof Yoof have arrived!

[jaydeehess]

if you watch the video and count, it is that fast, you can argue the fema, seismology, and 9/11 commission reports all you want, but in the end you cannot argue the video it is there calling you a liar.

,,, and once again it has been pointed out to you that merely timing out what is visible of the collapse is at best sophmoric and at worst so open to interpretation that one can get anything from about 9 seconds to 14, even 16 seconds.

I certainly can argue that it is utterly impossible for this collapse to have taken less than the time it would take for a bowling ball to drop from the height of 1360 feet and explosives simply cannot lessen that time.

[Gravy]

Wow! A stroll down memory lane! Most conspiracy liars gave up on "pyroclastic flows" years ago. Someone must have explained what the term meant.

You're roughly fourteen years old, right, kid?That's my guess also. Fates, I asked this earlier. We know you're young. Would you mind telling us how young? (Being young is a good thing, by the way.)

[FatesWebb]

Stop it! There was NO pyroclastic flow in Manhattan. These are ONLY associated with volcanoes. If you truly believe this to be a pyroclastic flow, show evidence of the high temperatures and velocities normally associated with them.

people were shoved blocks by it...

there is videos, as well there are cars from blocks away completely destroyed by it. which I have seen pictures and if I can find them again I will show you.

[Gravy]

people were shoved blocks by it...No, they weren't. I know people who were in it. Those who were shoved by the wind were shoved feet, at most. But you know what didn't happen to them, Fates? They weren't incinerated by superheated poisonous gases, as they would have been in a pyroclastic flow.

Dust, Fates. It was dust and debris.

Keep 'em coming, Fates!:not_ripe:

[Hokulele]

^_~ alot more than fates does that for sure . Lets see, how many times throughout my 13 years of school life was the Hawaiian Geology taught to us? Oh, wait...EVERY freaking year.

You're Hawaiian too? :eek:

Aloha... :cool:


Hawai'ians in the house! It's the 808 state, rulin' this tectonic plate.

[Unsecured Coins]

aloha oi!!

[jaydeehess]

there were cars destroyed dozens of feet away from the buildings, perhaps even a few hundred feet. they were destroyed by large debris which in some cases ruptured gas tanks and they caught fire.

[FatesWebb]

7190118531505989658


How long, do you think?

I would say about 12 seconds, of course that video is only 19 seconds

I would say anything short of about 1 minute is impossible without something there (explosives) to remove the resistance..

walk up to a 10 story building, then imagine it disappearing in 1 second.

[Gravy]

Hey, I was just listening to some Gabby Pahinui this morning. I'm a big fan of slack key guitar.

[defaultdotxbe]

people were shoved blocks by it...

there is videos, as well there are cars from blocks away completely destroyed by it. which I have seen pictures and if I can find them again I will show you.
source?

-8041519558836804973

in this video the dust cloud moves rather lazily down the street (at about 1:10 people are escaping it by walking) doesnt seem to be shoving anyone anywhere, and certainly doesnt seem to be 1000 degrees C o moving at 700kph

[pomeroo]

Apparently, Avery's Troof Yoof have arrived!


Geez, I thought it was Halloween! I bought all of this candy for nothing.

[Hokulele]

people were shoved blocks by it...

there is videos, as well there are cars from blocks away completely destroyed by it. which I have seen pictures and if I can find them again I will show you.


As Gravy mentioned, they were not shoved all that far. Do you know how hot a pyroclastic flow is and how far they travel? Do you know why they travel such distances? Show your evidence that temperatures at street level, outside the buildings (not in the fires), reached this level.


ETA: Bummer, defaultdotxbe gave away the answer.

[Gravy]

there were cars destroyed dozens of feet away from the buildings, perhaps even a few hundred feet. they were destroyed by large debris which in some cases ruptured gas tanks and they caught fire.Actually, most of those that caught fire did so because light debris like paper piled up against them and burned.

[T.A.M.]

still impossible without explosives, proactive removal of resistance.

try and prove it with science...you can't, and noone else has of all the truther scientists and engineers. Not one of them has provided a proper paper, with CORRECT Math and Physics, that proves the buildings could NOT have collapsed without the aid of explosives.

To do so, you would have to some how calculate that the resistance of the floors and other materials within the building were enough to overwhelm the downward forces and momentum of the collapsing building, at least to the point of causing a temporal delay sufficient to surpass the approximated collapse times.

You can whine and cry about "it was too close to free fall time" all you want, but without the science to back this up, you got Nothin...

But go ahead, give it a try...I'm waiting.

TAM:)

[defaultdotxbe]

I would say anything short of about 1 minute is impossible without something there (explosives) to remove the resistance..

and you are basing this on what? your expert experience in the field of structual collapses? your opinion carries no more weight than mine that the collapse times were perfectly normal

[pomeroo]

I would say about 12 seconds, of course that video is only 19 seconds

I would say anything short of about 1 minute is impossible without something there (explosives) to remove the resistance..

walk up to a 10 story building, then imagine it disappearing in 1 second.


Kid, you really don't know anything, do you? This is the most embarrassing display of near-total ignorance since the master, Malcolm Kirkman (or whatever he calls himself today), started a thread to proclaim himself the Dumbest, Most Ineducable Human Alive.

[FatesWebb]

,,, and once again it has been pointed out to you that merely timing out what is visible of the collapse is at best sophmoric and at worst so open to interpretation that one can get anything from about 9 seconds to 14, even 16 seconds.

I certainly can argue that it is utterly impossible for this collapse to have taken less than the time it would take for a bowling ball to drop from the height of 1360 feet and explosives simply cannot lessen that time.

but then you are agreeing with me, otherwise you are saying that the collapse took just as long as it would have using explosives...

You guys actually think that building could have been completely destroyed in 14 seconds? 20 seconds 45 seconds without explosives?

HELL NO NOWHERE CLOSE!

if there is merely a 1 second pause per floor to pulverize concrete and destroy the steel it takes 110 seconds....

I again refer you to the nova video in post 1.

[T.A.M.]

I would say about 12 seconds, of course that video is only 19 seconds

I would say anything short of about 1 minute is impossible without something there (explosives) to remove the resistance..

walk up to a 10 story building, then imagine it disappearing in 1 second.

OMG...you didn't just say this....

Have you forgotten about ACCELERATION DUE TO GRAVITY?

Have you forgotten about the MASS of the 20 Storey Top Section?

DO you realize how ultimately surreal a 1 minute collapse of any structure not at least 5 miles high would look????

Go back to school...please.

TAM:)

[twinstead]

I would say anything short of about 1 minute is impossible without something there (explosives) to remove the resistance..


Wow. Are you saying anything less than 60 seconds can only be accomplished via CD?

See, that's the problem. It's not YOU saying that; you are just parroting what you see on conspiracy websites. You seem to believe what people tell you no questions asked as long as it means conspiracy.

You don't seem to want to apply the same skepticism to your sources as you do sources that support the official story. This is called bias.

[Par]

I would say about 12 seconds, of course that video is only 19 seconds

I would say anything short of about 1 minute is impossible without something there (explosives) to remove the resistance..



Well, a twelve second collapse time. I’ll buy that.

So, on to the next point: Can you tell me, in structural engineering (or even more prosaic) terms, exactly what has led you to the conclusion that anything under a minute is impossible?

[Gravy]

walk up to a 10 story building, then imagine it disappearing in 1 second.You show a fundamental misunderstanding of physics. When a mass at rest falls, it does not immediately reach its terminal velocity. It accelerates at the rate of 9.8 m/sec squared. A 10 story building cannot collapse from rest, unaided by anything but gravity, in one second.

Please talk to a science teacher in school about this, or look up any basic online physics reference.
Keep 'em coming, Fates! :dc_biggrin:

[Hokulele]

Hey, I was just listening to some Gabby Pahinui this morning. I'm a big fan of slack key guitar.


Cyril and Bla are pretty good too (Gabby's sons). We have a huge slack key festival out here every June. You should try and attend it some year!

[Pardalis]

You guys actually think that building could have been completely destroyed in 14 seconds? 20 seconds 45 seconds without explosives?

HELL NO NOWHERE CLOSE!

Argument from personal incredulity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance) noted.

Do you have anything else?

[T.A.M.]

but then you are agreeing with me, otherwise you are saying that the collapse took just as long as it would have using explosives...

You guys actually think that building could have been completely destroyed in 14 seconds? 20 seconds 45 seconds without explosives?

HELL NO NOWHERE CLOSE!

if there is merely a 1 second pause per floor to pulverize concrete and destroy the steel it takes 110 seconds....

I again refer you to the nova video in post 1.

I challenge you to find one, just one, example of a building of 50 storeys or more, where the complete continuous collapse took more than 30 seconds (half of your 1 minute estimate for the 110 storey WTCs)...go ahead...find one....just one.

TAM:)

[defaultdotxbe]

if there is merely a 1 second pause per floor to pulverize concrete and destroy the steel it takes 110 seconds....
is that clunkity clunk 110 seconds or billiard balls 110 seconds?

[FatesWebb]

OMG...you didn't just say this....

Have you forgotten about ACCELERATION DUE TO GRAVITY?

Have you forgotten about the MASS of the 20 Storey Top Section?

DO you realize how ultimately surreal a 1 minute collapse of any structure not at least 5 miles high would look????

Go back to school...please.

TAM:)

it was just a example based on the 10 floors per second collapse of the wtc, (freefall pace) I know that the 10 story building would not have enough distance to get that speed up, but still the point is made as this is the average speed that the wtc collapsed at 10 floors per second.

[HyJinX]

...

[funk de fino]

I would say about 12 seconds, of course that video is only 19 seconds

I would say anything short of about 1 minute is impossible without something there (explosives) to remove the resistance..

walk up to a 10 story building, then imagine it disappearing in 1 second.

so thats approx 12 secs then are we agreed on this, not 10 or 8.4 or anything else?

then you know nothing

[defaultdotxbe]

it was just a example based on the 10 floors per second collapse of the wtc, (freefall pace) I know that the 10 story building would not have enough distance to get that speed up, but still the point is made as this is the average speed that the wtc collapsed at 10 floors per second.
it was a poor example that either shows your lack of understanding, or was intended to take advantage of anothers lack of understanding of the forces involved

[kookbreaker]

if there is merely a 1 second pause per floor to pulverize concrete and destroy the steel it takes 110 seconds....
.

And why on Earth would the collapsing mass pause at each floor for one second?

[Gravy]

You guys actually think that building could have been completely destroyed in 14 seconds? 20 seconds 45 seconds without explosives?

HELL NO NOWHERE CLOSE!The basic physics has been explained to you. Now provide your calculations that support your claim.

You cannot, because you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

Do you mind stating how old you are? I'd like to know. I'm interested in the education of young people.

Keep 'em coming, Fates! :not_ripe:

[T.A.M.]

That is not how it works. Things do not fall that way. Gravity forces all things to ACCELERATE at 9.8 meters/second squared. If you cannot even get grade school physics correct, how can we give you any credibility for any of what you are trying to say...this is not a game.

TAM:)

[Hokulele]

And why on Earth would the collapsing mass pause at each floor for one second?


They needed to stop and ask for directions?

[defaultdotxbe]

...
:)

[Several townspeople are stuck in a deep hole they've dug.]

Homer: I know! We'll dig our way out!

[They begin shovelling afresh.]

Chief Wiggum: No, no dig up, stupid.

[FatesWebb]

you guys are not open minded enough to discuss this with, you haven't really provided much debunking in these 2 threads, Ill give you that you did explain some about the construction of the wtc, and that the cores did stay up for a second or so, but really..... why do you hang out and do this as a hobby, yet you really don't have any answers.

the official explanations are botched, and there was explosives, and you guys cannot explain it without defying physics, and even defying as you have many times the actual fema, and 9/11 commission reports. you take to my improper use of words rather than actually trying to explain the temperatures or the freefall pace of the destruction of the towers etc.

Nice try but you have failed to show that the official story is true, and that the towers were not demolished by explosives. ill let you sit in it... peace

[Pardalis]

While you go away you might want to read the NIST report.

[defaultdotxbe]

the official explanations are botched, and there was explosives, and you guys cannot explain it without defying physics
your the one who said the towers fell in 8 seconds

but show us how the collpases defied physics, show your calculations, let us see how you came to the conclusion that it should have taken nearly 2 minutes, enlighten us!

[pomeroo]

but then you are agreeing with me, otherwise you are saying that the collapse took just as long as it would have using explosives...

You guys actually think that building could have been completely destroyed in 14 seconds? 20 seconds 45 seconds without explosives?

HELL NO NOWHERE CLOSE!

if there is merely a 1 second pause per floor to pulverize concrete and destroy the steel it takes 110 seconds....

I again refer you to the nova video in post 1.



You really haven't read anything, have you?

The Russians would say that you are trying to discover America.

[Crungy]

Cyril and Bla are pretty good too (Gabby's sons). We have a huge slack key festival out here every June. You should try and attend it some year!

I saw these three artists on a very cold Chicago winter about ten years back. I purchased these CDs (their latest at the time) and had them autographed. I remember Cyril kept going outside for smoke breaks and he was dyin' in that cold.

http://www.dancingcat.com/recordings/08022-38010-2.php
http://www.dancingcat.com/recordings/08022-38001-2.php
http://www.dancingcat.com/recordings/08022-38024-2.php

I'm also a big fan of Hawaiian steel guitar. This is a great compilation.

http://www.amazon.com/Hawaiian-Steel-Guitar-Classics-1927-1938/dp/B0000023TW/ref=sr_1_4/104-2341997-5777518?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1186608209&sr=1-4

Now back to the thread.....

[Arus808]

You're Hawaiian too? :eek:

Aloha... :cool:

Aloha and Mahalo Nui Loa

anytime you see someone with 808 in their name, you can bet they originated or are from hawaii. 808 is the area code of Hawaii.

[jaydeehess]

I would say about 12 seconds, of course that video is only 19 seconds

I would say anything short of about 1 minute is impossible without something there (explosives) to remove the resistance..

walk up to a 10 story building, then imagine it disappearing in 1 second.

So it isn't 8 or 10 seconds anymore then FW?

So glad you are coming around.

As I said before, at 14 seconds the average resistive force to the collapse would be about 60% that of the force due to gravity to the collapse in that 14 seconds would give an average acelleration that is 40% that of the acelleration due to gravity.

A 10 storey(at 12.5 feet per storey) building would be 125 feet tall. free fall from 125 feet is 2.8 seconds. So a 10 storey building cannot collapse in less than that time. You are averaging out the velocity of the building's collapse but that is very wrong. The velocity is ever increasing during the fall(that is the definition of acelleration) so the first ten storeys could take no longer than 2.8 seconds at free fall. however I said the average acelleration was 0.43g or 13.8 f/s2

At that rate of acelleration the first ten floors went down in approx4.2 seconds. The first 100 floors went down in 13.4 seconds and the last 10 floors in 0.7 seconds (the use of 12.5 feet per flor would put the height of the structure at 1375 feet which makes total collapse time 14.11 seconds) I am sure you can run the numbers using more accurate floor distances yourself)

So, yes, given that the approaching debris mass is already moving very fast when it hits the tenth floor I can imagine it coming apart in a second or less.

[Gravy]

Cyril and Bla are pretty good too (Gabby's sons). We have a huge slack key festival out here every June. You should try and attend it some year!I would love to. When I go to TAM 5.5 I'll be down to two states that I haven't visited: Alaska and Hawaii. I had friends in Honolulu who kept inviting me out. She's a massage therapist and he a dive instructor. What could be better? Anyway I kept putting it off, until one day I was in San Francisco and called them on a whim and said, "Hey, I'm a lot closer now. Can I come visit." They said, "Um, we're moving to California this week." I'm an idiot.

[Pardalis]

Aloha and Mahalo Nui Loa

anytime you see someone with 808 in their name, you can bet they originated or are from hawaii. 808 is the area code of Hawaii.

Cool.

I still can't believe people actually live in paradise.

Pardalis514 ;)

[T.A.M.]

d = 1/2 * g * t * t
t*t = 2d/g
t * t = 2 * 417m/9.8
t = 9.22s

And that is assuming the top of the building was the center of gravity, which it was not...in actual fact, taking a d = 370m (about 6 floors down, or midway of the 10-12 storey section of the first tower to be hit), we get this...

t*t = 2 * 370/9.8
t = 8.7s

So free fall for the first tower hit (second to collapse) was about 8.7 seconds...

TAM:)

[funk de fino]

you guys are not open minded enough to discuss this with, you haven't really provided much debunking in these 2 threads, Ill give you that you did explain some about the construction of the wtc, and that the cores did stay up for a second or so, but really..... why do you hang out and do this as a hobby, yet you really don't have any answers.

the official explanations are botched, and there was explosives, and you guys cannot explain it without defying physics, and even defying as you have many times the actual fema, and 9/11 commission reports. you take to my improper use of words rather than actually trying to explain the temperatures or the freefall pace of the destruction of the towers etc.

Nice try but you have failed to show that the official story is true, and that the towers were not demolished by explosives. ill let you sit in it... peace

brave sir robin ran away, he ran away again

you do not understand physics so how can we defy it if you do not understand it?

you made more mistakes in one sitting than anyone i have seen so far and went into total denial mode when you got something wrong

we dont have to show you anything, if you are claiming the official line is false it is you who has to show us and you flunked it

better luck with your grades this year

[CHF]

at 1:11:30 it shows the video FROM WITHIN the pyroclastic flow.

Yes FW, there was a volcano in NYC on 9/11. :faint:

Why do twoofers insist on using terms that they clearly don't even understand?

[Alferd_Packer]

ill let you sit in it... peace

Bubye Ace.

Does using a sock puppet make your hand smell like unwashed feet?

[pomeroo]

you guys are not open minded enough to discuss this with, you haven't really provided much debunking in these 2 threads, Ill give you that you did explain some about the construction of the wtc, and that the cores did stay up for a second or so, but really..... why do you hang out and do this as a hobby, yet you really don't have any answers.


It's harsh to put it so baldly, but you really haven't displayed sufficient intelligence to comprehend the answers you've been given--repeatedly.



the official explanations are botched, and there was explosives, and you guys cannot explain it without defying physics,



There are no "official" explanations. There were absolutely no explosives in the WTC complex: there isn't a shred of evidence for this pernicious myth. You are woefully ignorant of basic physics. If your class hasn't studied physics yet, you shouldn't be pontificating about a subject you know nothing about.



and even defying as you have many times the actual fema, and 9/11 commission reports.



You haven't read any of these reports. You are clueless about their content.




you take to my improper use of words rather than actually trying to explain the temperatures or the freefall pace of the destruction of the towers etc.



These subjects have been done to death on this forum. Your ignorance is not our problem.



Nice try but you have failed to show that the official story is true, and that the towers were not demolished by explosives. ill let you sit in it... peace


There is no "official" story. Every demolition expert in the world rejects the fantasist moonshine about explosives in the Twin Towers. Why are they all wrong? What do you know that they don't?

[Gravy]

you guys are not open minded enough to discuss this with, you haven't really provided much debunking in these 2 threads, Ill give you that you did explain some about the construction of the wtc, and that the cores did stay up for a second or so, but really..... why do you hang out and do this as a hobby, yet you really don't have any answers.

Translation: You guys refuse to believe patently false things and to succumb to a pyroclastic flow of stupid. You insist on countering claims I've pulled out of my bum, with facts. Worse, you have interfered with an afternoon's gaming. IhateyouIhateyouIhateyou.

Do your homework, kid!
:drillserg

[Revolutionary91]

Fateswebb, don't forget you can report all these age based attacks on you. The moderators are going to take a dimmer view of it I think.

[fezzic]

they were the strongest, not the weakest spots, so why did they collapse?
<link snipped>
so why? wouldnt just the joists that connected the floors to the core collapse? the core should still be standing.
<in response to my posting>while this attempts to explain why the collapse did continue to occur, it does not answer the question.

You assume that with the upper block descending on the lower structure that the core columns with their core floor slabs and interconnections (for load distribution, if nothing else) should have speared up through that mass. That the various effects of the collapse would simply break the floor truss connections and not affect the core.

While not a solid mass, the upper portion was still plenty massive and to presume that the core, taken as a unit, must punch through it is a major assumption about the nature of the collapse. OTOH, I don't have a real problem with an idea that the core columns, roughly taken as a unit, imposed a very small but cumulative effect on the falling mass that essentially caused the debris to fall around the core rather than taking it all down leaving a portion standing (for at least a little while). That would probably be consistent with the fact that some people survived in the core stairways though they were near the bottom. Once a sufficient effect has occurred, the collapse took on aspects of one in which the floor truss connections broke but didn't take the core with them.

[pomeroo]

Fateswebb, don't forget you can report all these age based attacks on you. The moderators are going to take a dimmer view of it I think.


Hey, Rev, don't forget you can point out the mistakes I made in demonstrating that your imaginary conspiracy is mathematically impossible.

What? I didn't make any mistakes?

Doesn't that make you look silly, swallowing all of that ridiculous, baseless hogwash?

Well, you're just a kid.

[9/11 Chewy Defense]

When has any 9/11 Truther or Conspiracist gotten anything right? :boggled:

When have they proven something to be true? :rolleyes:

Why haven't they gone public with their so called "evidence"? :drool:

If you wanted a Controlled Demolition then why fake 4 hijacked planes crashing into buildings and into a field? :eye-poppi

Why go through all that trouble to cover up something and show it on National TV? :covereyes

[CHF]

FatesWebb, if you want to understand why the towers fell as fast as they did, start by looking up the mass above the collapse zone.

North tower - 50,000 tons. By comparison, the Titanic weighed 46,000.

South tower - 120,000 tons. A US Navy aircraft carrier weighs 105,000.

Is it starting to sink in, FW?

[Revolutionary91]

Hey, Rev, don't forget you can point out the mistakes I made in demonstrating that your imaginary conspiracy is mathematically impossible.

What? I didn't make any mistakes?

Doesn't that make you look silly, swallowing all of that ridiculous, baseless hogwash?

Well, you're just a kid.

Hey Ron, don't forget that at any time you are welcome to return to reality and stop saying that WMD was a lie. When you do I might take you seriously.

[pomeroo]

Hey Ron, don't forget that at any time you are welcome to return to reality and stop saying that WMD was a lie. When you do I might take you seriously.


As usual, your brain is turned off. I have been pointing out that many of the people who scream that Bush lied about Iraqi WMD understand perfectly well that what they're claiming is absurd. A few of the Bush-bashers are sufficiently devoid of critical thinking skills to trick themselves into believing that the nonsense they parrot could be true. However, it can't be true.

We'll run through it again because you are an uncommonly slow learner: In the summer of 2002, Bush is sitting atop personal approval ratings in the high seventies. If he does nothing at all, a la Bill Clinton, his reelection by a landslide is assured. Instead, he proposes invading Iraq and uses Saddam's retention of stockpiles of WMD as a pretext. As we recall, Clinton bombed Iraq intensively for four days in 1998, targeting Republican Guard barracks and WMD facilities. Perhaps someday a Democrat will explain why slaughtering hundreds, if not thousands, of soldiers who didn't know they were in a war does NOT constitute a war crime, but to date no one has made the attempt. Anyway, Bush promises to find weapons he knows aren't there. A bright child could tell you that people lie to derive benefits and they don't expect to get caught. But, you are asking us to believe that Bush and Co. crafted a lie that was CERTAIN to be exposed (you either find the WMD or you don't), taking the possibility of deriving any benefits right off the table. In the end, Bush's evil scheme came within a whisker of costing him the presidency. He was saved when the Democrats indulged themselves by nominating a man who entered the national consciousness by slandering the troops who fought bravely in an unpopular war. And all the while Bush was being savaged by the Dems and their media auxiliaries, as his polls melted away, he and Cheney were twirling their mustaches and cackling that the plan was working.

Sure.

[CptColumbo]

yeah good name for us.... all of us, some of which include...

Rep. Curt Weldon, Senator Max Cleland, Senator Bob Graham , Senator Mark Dayton, Louis Freeh, Edward L. Peck, Morton Goulder, Morgan Reynolds, PhD, Paul Craig Roberts, PhD, Catherine Austin Fitts, John Loftus, George Kenney, Fred Burks, Daniel Ellsberg, PhD, Philip J. Berg, Esquire, Major General Albert Stubblebine, U.S. Army (ret), Col. Ronald D. Ray, U.S. Marine Corps (ret), Col. Robert Bowman, PhD, U.S. Air Force (ret), Col. George Nelson, U.S. Air Force (ret), Major Douglas Rokke, PhD, U.S. Army (ret), Capt. Russ Wittenberg, U.S. Air Force, Lt. Col. Karen U. Kwiatkowski, PhD, U.S. Air Force (ret), Barbara Honegger, Lt. Col. Stephen L. Butler, EdD, U.S. Air Force (ret), Lt. Col. Anthony Shaffer, U.S. Army Reserve, Capt. Scott J. Phillpott, U.S. Navy, Major John M. Newman, PhD, U.S. Army (ret), Major Scott Ritter, U.S. Marine Corps, Capt. Gregory M. Zeigler, PhD, U.S. Army, Capt. Eric H. May, U.S. Army (ret), Raymond L. McGovern, William Christison, Robert David Steele (Vivas), Melvin A. Goodman, Robert Baer, Sibel D. Edmonds, Bogdan Dzakovic, Edward J. Costello, Jr., John M. Cole, David "Mark" Conrad, Rosemary N. Dew, Bogdan Dzakovic, Sibel D. Edmonds, Steve Elson, David Forbes, Melvin A. Goodman, Mark Graf, Gilbert M. Graham, Diane Kleiman, Lt. Col. Karen U. Kwiatkowski, PhD, U.S. Air Force (ret), Lynne A. Larkin, David MacMichael, Raymond L. McGovern, Theodore J. Pahle, Behrooz Sarshar, Brian F. Sullivan, Commander Larry J. Tortorich, U.S. Navy (ret), Jane A. Turner, John B. Vincent, Dr. Fred Whitehurst, Col. Ann Wright, U.S. Army (ret), Matthew J. Zipoli, Paul Hellyer, Michael Meacher, Andreas von Buelow, PhD, Horst Ehmke, General Leonid Ivashov, Francesco Cossiga, General Pervez Musharraf, General Mirza Aslam Beg, Mohamed Hassanein Heikal, Paul Lannoye, Col. Pierre-Henri Bunel, French Army (ret), David Shayler, Thomas H. Kean, Chairman, 9/11 Commission, Lee Hamilton, Vice Chairman, 9/11 Commission, Timothy J. Roemer, PhD, 9/11 Commissioner, Jamie S. Gorelick, 9/11 Commissioner, John J. Farmer, Jr., Senior Counsel, 9/11 Commission, Peter Rundlet, Counsel for the 9/11 Commission.

William Rodriguez – WTC survivor, Hero, Phillip Morelli – WTC survivor, Mike Pecoraro – WTC survivor. Joe Shearin – WTC survivo,r Tom Elliot - WTC survivor. Frank A. DeMartini – WTC victim. Janette MacKinlay – WTC survivor. Chief Frank Cruthers – WTC survivor. Chief Albert Turi, Jr. – WTC survivor. Assistant Fire Commissioner Stephen Gregory – WTC survivor. Assistant Fire Commissioner James Drury – WTC survivor. Captain Dennis Tardio – WTC survivor. Firefighter Patrick Zoda – WTC Survivor. Captain Karin DeShore – WTC survivor. Firefighter Lou Cacchioli – WTC survivor. Firefighter Richard Banaciski – WTC survivor. Firefighter Kenneth Rogers – WTC survivor. Firefighter Edward Cachia – WTC survivor. Firefighter Joseph W. Montaperto – FDNY, Engine 280 and Ladder 132, Prospect Park. Megan Bartlett – WTC survivor. Kevin Shea – WTC survivor. Officer Craig Bartmer – WTC survivor. Detective Thomas M. Inman – WTC survivor. Jean Hunt – Pentagon survivor. April Gallop, Administrative Specialist, U.S. Army, and Elisha Gallop – Pentagon survivors. Lt. Col. Karen U. Kwiatkowski, PhD, U.S. Air Force (ret) – Pentagon survivor. Steve DeChiaro – Pentagon survivor. Bill Doyle – Father of Joseph Doyle, Donna Marsh O'Connor – Mother of Vanessa Lang Langer, Cristina Kminek – Sister of Mari-Rae Sopper, Marion Kminek – Mother of Mari-Rae Sopper, Michelle Little – Sister of Firefighter David M. Weiss, Bob McIlvaine – Father of Robert McIlvaine, Colleen Kelly – Sister of Bill Kelly, Jr., Barry Zelman – Brother of Kenneth Zelman, Kristen Breitweiser – Wife of Ronald Michael Breitweiser, Patty Casazza – Wife of John F. Casazza, Lorie Van Auken – Wife of Kenneth Van Auken, Mindy Kleinberg – Wife of Allan Kleinberg, Patricia Perry – Mother of Officer John W. Perry, Esq., Monica Gabrielle – Wife of Richard S. Gabrielle, Sally Regenhard – Mother of Firefighter Christian Michael Otto Regenhard, Ellen Mariani – Wife of Neil Mariani, Daniel Wallace (1984 - 2007) – Son of Lt. Robert Wallace, *


Joanne Barbara – Wife of Assistant Chief Gerard Barbara, FDNY

Gayle Barker – Sister of William A. Karnes, Marsh & McLennan, WTC North Tower

Michele Bergsohn – Wife of Alvin Bergsohn, Cantor Fitzgerald, WTC North Tower

Derrill Bodley – Father of Deora Bodley, passenger on United Flight 93

Kathryn C. Bowden – Sister of Thomas H. Bowden, Jr., Cantor Fitzgerald, WTC North Tower, 104th floor

Janet Calia – Wife of Dominick Calia, Cantor Fitzgerald, WTC North Tower

Maggie Cashman – Wife of William Joseph Cashman, United Flight 93

Lynne Castrianno Galante – Sister of Leonard Castrianno, Cantor Fitzgerald, WTC North Tower, 105th floor

Elza Chapa-McGowan – Daughter of Rosemary Chapa, Defense Intelligence Agency, Pentagon

Bruce De Cell – Father-in-law of Mark Petrocelli, broker, Carr Futures, WTC North Tower, 92nd floor

Ralph D'Esposito – Father of Michael D'Esposito, Marsh & McLennan, WTC North Tower, 96th floor

Loisanne Diehl – Wife of Michael D. Diehl, Vice President, Fiduciary Trust, WTC South Tower, 90th floor

Adina D. Eisenberg – Sister of Eric Eisenberg, Aon Corporation, WTC South Tower

Jonathan M. Fisher – Son of Dr. Gerald Paul "Geep" Fisher, Booz, Allen & Hamilton, Pentagon

Michael J. Fox – Brother of Jeffrey L. Fox, Keefe, Bruyette & Woods, WTC South Tower, 89th floor

Laurel A. Gay – Sister of Peter A. Gay, Vice President, Raytheon, American Flight 11

Irene Golinsky – Wife of Col. Ronald F. Golinski U.S. Army (ret), Pentagon

Lori, Jerry, and Beatrice Guadagno – Sister and Parents of Richard Guadagno, Manager, Humboldt Bay National Wildlife Refuge, United Flight 93

Kristen Hall – Daughter of Firefighter Thomas Kuveikis, FDNY, Squad 252

Kurt D. Horning – Father of Matthew D. Horning, Marsh & McLennan, WTC North Tower, 95th floor

Joel Horwitz – Lost beloved cousin in WTC North Tower

Jean Hunt – Disabled survivor of Pentagon attack (See individual statement.)

Jennifer W. Hunt – Wife of William C. Hunt, Vice President, Euro Brokers, WTC South Tower

John Keating – Son of Barbara Keating, passenger on American Flight 11

L. Russell Keene II – Father of Russ Keene III, Equities Analyst, Keefe Bruyette & Woods, WTC South Tower, 89th floor

Peter Kousoulis – Brother of Danielle Kousoulis, Vice President, Cantor Fitzgerald, WTC North Tower

Paul and Barbara Kirwin – Parents of Glenn Davis Kirwin, Partner, Cantor Fitzgerald, WTC North Tower, 105th floor

Barbara Krukowski-Rastelli – Mother of Firefighter William E. Krukowski, FDNY, Ladder Company 21, Manhattan

Laura and Ira Lassman – Parents of Nicholas C. Lassman, Cantor Fitzgerald, WTC North Tower

Johnny Lee – Husband of Lorraine Greene Lee, Aon Corporation, WTC South Tower, 101st floor

Alicia LeGuillow – Mother of Nestor A. Cintron III, Cantor Fitzgerald, WTC North Tower

Francine Levine – Sister of Adam K. Ruhalter, Controller, Cantor Fitzgerald, WTC North Tower

Ellen Mariani –Wife of Neil Mariani, United Flight 175 (See individual statement.)

Bob McIlvaine – Father of Robert McIlvaine, Assistant Vice President, Merrill Lynch, WTC North Tower, 106th floor (See individual statement.)

Mary McWilliams – Mother of Firefighter Martin E. McWilliams, FDNY, Engine Company 22, Upper East Side

Daryl J. Meehan – Brother of Colleen Ann Barkow, Project Manager, Cantor Fitzgerald, WTC North Tower, 105th floor

Elvira P. Murphy – Wife of Patrick Murphy, Vice President, Marsh & McLennan, WTC North Tower

Jessica Murrow – Wife of Stephen Adams, Manager, Windows on the World, WTC North Tower

Natalee Pecorelli – Sister of Thomas Pecorelli, Cameraman for Fox Sports Net and E! Entertainment Television. American Flight 11

James L Perry, MD, and Patricia J. Perry – Parents of John W. Perry, Esq., NYPD Officer. See also individual statement.

David Potorti – Brother of James Potorti, Vice President, Marsh & McLennan, WTC North Tower, 96th floor

Terry Kay Rockefeller – Sister of Laura Rockefeller, Risk Waters Group, WTC North Tower

Grissel Rodriguez-Valentin – Wife of Benito Valentin, American Express, WTC North Tower, 94th floor

Alissa Rosenberg-Torres – Wife of Luis Eduardo Torres, Senior Broker, Cantor Fitzgerald, WTC North Tower

Ralph & Brigitte Sabbag – Parents of Jason Sabbag, Portfolio Manager, Fiduciary Trust, WTC South Tower

Elaine Saber – Mother of Scott Saber, UBS Warburg, WTC North Tower, 106th floor

Julie Scarpitta – Mother of Michelle Scarpitta, Euro Brokers, WTC South Tower, 84th floor

Paula Shapiro – Mother of Eric Eisenberg, Aon Corporation, WTC South Tower

Kevin Shea – WTC survivor. FDNY Hazmat Operations. Sustained major injuries on 9/11, which forced retirement. (See individual statement.)

Elizabeth Turner – Wife of Simon Turner, Publishing Director, Risk Waters Group, WTC North Tower

Adele Welty – Mother of Firefighter Timothy Welty, FDNY, Squad 288, Queens

Joan W. Winton – Mother of David Winton, Vice President, Keefe, Bruyette & Woods, WTC South Tower, 89th floor

David Yancey – Husband of Vicki Yancey, Vrendenburg Co. American Flight 77

Nissa Youngren – Daughter of Robert G. LeBlanc, Professor Emeritus of Geography, University of New Hampshire. United Flight 175

http://patriotsquestion911.com/

I happen to know at least three of these people and none believe that the WTC was brought down by controlled demolition.

Ask yourself, if we published a list of people who believe that the WTC collapsed due to two planes hitting it would that convince you?

[9/11 Chewy Defense]

http://www.cartoonstock.com/newscartoons/cartoonists/mba/lowres/mban1236l.jpg
:D

[Arus808]

Hey, I was just listening to some Gabby Pahinui this morning. I'm a big fan of slack key guitar.

OMG...yeah he was iconic. damn I miss his artistic approach to guitar. we lost a great talent. I was only 6 when he died.

[pomeroo]

I happen to know at least three of these people and none believe that the WTC was brought down by controlled demolition.

Ask yourself, if we published a list of people who believe that the WTC collapsed due to two planes hitting it would that convince you?



Just look at some of the names on the list. Imagine pretending that U.S. Senators are conspiracy liars! These creeps have no shame.

[9/11 Chewy Defense]

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/conspiracy_theories.png
I think this one tops it!

[cmcaulif]

Just look at some of the names on the list. Imagine pretending that U.S. Senators are conspiracy liars! These creeps have no shame.

One of the people on the list was actually a WTC victim. I wonder what their explaination for that is.

[CptColumbo]

Just look at some of the names on the list. Imagine pretending that U.S. Senators are conspiracy liars! These creeps have no shame.Imagine how long a list of people who believe that the towers were brought down by two planes would be, even if you only included the scientists with experience in the required fields.

[CptColumbo]

http://www.cartoonstock.com/newscartoons/cartoonists/mba/lowres/mban1236l.jpg
:D
I always say at work:
"I'd stop being paranoid, if everyone stopped plotting against me."

[Rahne Everson]

pyroclastic flow

Why? WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYY?

[lkhllywd]

Fateswebb, don't forget you can report all these age based attacks on you. The moderators are going to take a dimmer view of it I think.

FWIW, his MySpace page says he's 36.
I find this much sadder than if he were 14.

[fachverwirrt]

I always say at work:
"I'd stop being paranoid, if everyone stopped plotting against me."
Just because you're paranoid, it doesn't mean they're not out to get you.

[CptColumbo]

Just because you're paranoid, it doesn't mean they're not out to get you.
Exactly!

[Hokulele]

I just noticed something when CptColumbo quoted this:

yeah good name for us.... all of us, some of which include...

Rep. Curt Weldon, Senator Max Cleland, Senator Bob Graham , Senator Mark Dayton, Louis Freeh, Edward L. Peck, Morton Goulder, Morgan Reynolds, PhD, Paul Craig Roberts, PhD, Catherine Austin Fitts, John Loftus, George Kenney, Fred Burks, Daniel Ellsberg, PhD, Philip J. Berg, Esquire, Major General Albert Stubblebine, U.S. Army (ret), Col. Ronald D. Ray, U.S. Marine Corps (ret), Col. Robert Bowman, PhD, U.S. Air Force (ret), Col. George Nelson, U.S. Air Force (ret), Major Douglas Rokke, PhD, U.S. Army (ret), Capt. Russ Wittenberg, U.S. Air Force, Lt. Col. Karen U. Kwiatkowski, PhD, U.S. Air Force (ret), Barbara Honegger, Lt. Col. Stephen L. Butler, EdD, U.S. Air Force (ret), Lt. Col. Anthony Shaffer, U.S. Army Reserve, Capt. Scott J. Phillpott, U.S. Navy, Major John M. Newman, PhD, U.S. Army (ret), Major Scott Ritter, U.S. Marine Corps, Capt. Gregory M. Zeigler, PhD, U.S. Army, Capt. Eric H. May, U.S. Army (ret), Raymond L. McGovern, William Christison, Robert David Steele (Vivas), Melvin A. Goodman, Robert Baer, Sibel D. Edmonds, Bogdan Dzakovic, Edward J. Costello, Jr., John M. Cole, David "Mark" Conrad, Rosemary N. Dew, Bogdan Dzakovic, Sibel D. Edmonds, Steve Elson, David Forbes, Melvin A. Goodman, Mark Graf, Gilbert M. Graham, Diane Kleiman, Lt. Col. Karen U. Kwiatkowski, PhD, U.S. Air Force (ret), Lynne A. Larkin, David MacMichael, Raymond L. McGovern, Theodore J. Pahle, Behrooz Sarshar, Brian F. Sullivan, Commander Larry J. Tortorich, U.S. Navy (ret), Jane A. Turner, John B. Vincent, Dr. Fred Whitehurst, Col. Ann Wright, U.S. Army (ret), Matthew J. Zipoli, Paul Hellyer, Michael Meacher, Andreas von Buelow, PhD, Horst Ehmke, General Leonid Ivashov, Francesco Cossiga, General Pervez Musharraf, General Mirza Aslam Beg, Mohamed Hassanein Heikal, Paul Lannoye, Col. Pierre-Henri Bunel, French Army (ret), David Shayler, Thomas H. Kean, Chairman, 9/11 Commission, Lee Hamilton, Vice Chairman, 9/11 Commission, Timothy J. Roemer, PhD, 9/11 Commissioner, Jamie S. Gorelick, 9/11 Commissioner, John J. Farmer, Jr., Senior Counsel, 9/11 Commission, Peter Rundlet, Counsel for the 9/11 Commission.

William Rodriguez – WTC survivor, Hero, Phillip Morelli – WTC survivor, Mike Pecoraro – WTC survivor. Joe Shearin – WTC survivo,r Tom Elliot - WTC survivor. Frank A. DeMartini – WTC victim. Janette MacKinlay – WTC survivor. Chief Frank Cruthers – WTC survivor. Chief Albert Turi, Jr. – WTC survivor. Assistant Fire Commissioner Stephen Gregory – WTC survivor. Assistant Fire Commissioner James Drury – WTC survivor. Captain Dennis Tardio – WTC survivor. Firefighter Patrick Zoda – WTC Survivor. Captain Karin DeShore – WTC survivor. Firefighter Lou Cacchioli – WTC survivor. Firefighter Richard Banaciski – WTC survivor. Firefighter Kenneth Rogers – WTC survivor. Firefighter Edward Cachia – WTC survivor. Firefighter Joseph W. Montaperto – FDNY, Engine 280 and Ladder 132, Prospect Park. Megan Bartlett – WTC survivor. Kevin Shea – WTC survivor. Officer Craig Bartmer – WTC survivor. Detective Thomas M. Inman – WTC survivor. Jean Hunt – Pentagon survivor. April Gallop, Administrative Specialist, U.S. Army, and Elisha Gallop – Pentagon survivors. Lt. Col. Karen U. Kwiatkowski, PhD, U.S. Air Force (ret) – Pentagon survivor. Steve DeChiaro – Pentagon survivor. Bill Doyle – Father of Joseph Doyle, Donna Marsh O'Connor – Mother of Vanessa Lang Langer, Cristina Kminek – Sister of Mari-Rae Sopper, Marion Kminek – Mother of Mari-Rae Sopper, Michelle Little – Sister of Firefighter David M. Weiss, Bob McIlvaine – Father of Robert McIlvaine, Colleen Kelly – Sister of Bill Kelly, Jr., Barry Zelman – Brother of Kenneth Zelman, Kristen Breitweiser – Wife of Ronald Michael Breitweiser, Patty Casazza – Wife of John F. Casazza, Lorie Van Auken – Wife of Kenneth Van Auken, Mindy Kleinberg – Wife of Allan Kleinberg, Patricia Perry – Mother of Officer John W. Perry, Esq., Monica Gabrielle – Wife of Richard S. Gabrielle, Sally Regenhard – Mother of Firefighter Christian Michael Otto Regenhard, Ellen Mariani – Wife of Neil Mariani, Daniel Wallace (1984 - 2007) – Son of Lt. Robert Wallace, *

<snipped for length>



That's just what I noticed at a glance. I wonder how many people are on this list once all the duplicates are removed.

[Horatius]

Just because you're paranoid, it doesn't mean they're not out to get you.



When everyone is out to get you, paranoia is just common sense.

[Corsair 115]

I'd still like to know from Revolutionary91 or FatesWebb why the media of other nations is not all over this amazing story-of-the-century that the U.S. government perpetrated 9/11. I mean, why on earth aren't the media in Canada or Britain or France or Belgium or Japan or New Zealand or Norway or one of many other countries not be making this story their #1 lead item?

I sometimes think the CTers forget there is an independent world outside the United States...

[Cl1mh4224rd]

You know... most people think that the nitpicking about improper word usage [that went on in the first few pages] is petty and distracting, but more and more I'm looking at it as a sort of litmus test.

I mean, if someone can't even admit they were wrong about such a minor detail, there's really no point in engaging them in any kind of "debate".


people were shoved blocks by it...


Blocks? Plural? How far is that, FW?

[twinstead]

Blocks? Plural? How far is that, FW?

I think our friend has a problem with hyperbole. You'll notice he also thinks any collapse under 60 seconds without explosives is impossible.

[Regnad Kcin]

you guys are not open minded enough to discuss this with, you haven't really provided much debunking in these 2 threads, Ill give you that you did explain some about the construction of the wtc, and that the cores did stay up for a second or so, but really..... why do you hang out and do this as a hobby, yet you really don't have any answers.

the official explanations are botched, and there was explosives, and you guys cannot explain it without defying physics, and even defying as you have many times the actual fema, and 9/11 commission reports. you take to my improper use of words rather than actually trying to explain the temperatures or the freefall pace of the destruction of the towers etc.

Nice try but you have failed to show that the official story is true, and that the towers were not demolished by explosives. ill let you sit in it... peaceAnd yet...you are 100% in error.

Why do so-called seekers of the "truth" only seem to be seekers of confirmation? Can none of you understand there is so much you don't understand?

[Rahne Everson]

I'd still like to know from Revolutionary91 or FatesWebb why the media of other nations is not all over this amazing story-of-the-century that the U.S. government perpetrated 9/11. I mean, why on earth aren't the media in Canada or Britain or France or Belgium or Japan or New Zealand or Norway or one of many other countries not be making this story their #1 lead item?

I sometimes think the CTers forget there is an independent world outside the United States...

Because Belgium, Norway, Japan and New Zealand are insidious members of the New World Order of course.

[Mr. Skinny]

That's just what I noticed at a glance. I wonder how many people are on this list once all the duplicates are removed.


You missed this one.


...Bogdan Dzakovic, Edward J. Costello, Jr., John M. Cole, David "Mark" Conrad, Rosemary N. Dew, Bogdan Dzakovic, ...

[Hokulele]

You missed this one.


Good catch. I was just glancing through, and the Kwiatkowski name sort of stood out to me.

[Par]

I'd still like to know from Revolutionary91 or FatesWebb why the media of other nations is not all over this amazing story-of-the-century that the U.S. government perpetrated 9/11. I mean, why on earth aren't the media in Canada or Britain or France or Belgium or Japan or New Zealand or Norway or one of many other countries not be making this story their #1 lead item?

I sometimes think the CTers forget there is an independent world outside the United States...



It’s PrisonPlanet, not PrisonCountry!

[CptColumbo]

You know... most people think that the nitpicking about improper word usage [that went on in the first few pages] is petty and distracting, but more and more I'm looking at it as a sort of litmus test.

I mean, if someone can't even admit they were wrong about such a minor detail, there's really no point in engaging them in any kind of "debate".

I've seen a tendancy among the "twoofers," I've run into, to give a sinister aspect to other people making innocent mistakes.

For example, at a recent showing of Press for 9/11 Truth, one of the people who was moderating the Q&A afterwards brought up President Bush calling the plane that hit the Pentagon a "missle" and then correcting himself. This moderator had apparently forgotten about earlier refering to 9/11/01 as happening "seven years ago." Should I assume that he had prior knowledge of the event, by at least a year, or just guess that he had misspoken.

Also, it shows a fundamental lack of care on the part of the "twoofers," and anybody, when they make many mistakes in writing and speaking. They want to be taken as serious investigators, yet can't take the time to look up a word in a thesaurus or dictionary.

[Regnad Kcin]

Fateswebb, don't forget you can report all these age based attacks on you. The moderators are going to take a dimmer view of it I think.If one is under 21 he/she is generally considered not yet an adult. This is true physiologically, emotionally, and neurologically. While intellectual development does not always correlate with increasing years, it would be a mistake for a child to surmise that just because he's no longer in Underoos, that he's all grown up.

The first rule of intelligence: You aren't as much as you think you are.

[CptColumbo]

Good catch. I was just glancing through, and the Kwiatkowski name sort of stood out to me...and Bogdan Dzakovic didn't?

"It's pronounced the way it's spelled."
Det. Sgt. Stanley Wojciehowicz, NYPD

[Mince]

yeah good name for us.... all of us, some of which include...

<snipped to save space>

http://patriotsquestion911.com/


Your link lists approximately 600 names of people who they claim question 9/11. Even if there were no duplicates (as posted above) and all 600 believed the U.S. Government was absolutely complicit (also posted above), that's 600 out of how many? Actually, there's probably not one person alive who questions 9/11. It's ok to question the events because there are so many unknown or unexplainable aspects. But people posing questions about those events does not mean that they support your conspiracy or that the conspiracy is true.

[Cl1mh4224rd]

You missed this one.


...and this one...

. . .Melvin A. Goodman, Robert Baer, Sibel D. Edmonds, Bogdan Dzakovic, Edward J. Costello, Jr., John M. Cole, David "Mark" Conrad, Rosemary N. Dew, Bogdan Dzakovic, Sibel D. Edmonds, Steve Elson, David Forbes, Melvin A. Goodman. . .


What a crock of a list....

[Mince]

You missed this one.

...Bogdan Dzakovic,...........Bogdan Dzakovic,


Maybe there's actually two distinct people named Bogdan Dzakovic and three distinct people named Karen U. Kwiatkowski who question 9/11.

[CptColumbo]

Maybe there's actually two distinct people named Bogdan Dzakovic and three distinct people named Karen U. Kwiatkowski who question 9/11. Possible, but all the Karen U. Kwiatkowskis also being Lt. Col. in the US Air Force with a PhD. The probability of such an occurance is staggering, but again not impossible

[Cl1mh4224rd]

I've seen a tendancy among the "twoofers," I've run into, to give a sinister aspect to other people making innocent mistakes.

For example, at a recent showing of Press for 9/11 Truth, one of the people who was moderating the Q&A afterwards brought up President Bush calling the plane that hit the Pentagon a "missle" and then correcting himself. This moderator had apparently forgotten about earlier refering to 9/11/01 as happening "seven years ago." Should I assume that he had prior knowledge of the event, by at least a year, or just guess that he had misspoken.


True, but when they're called out on such a mistake and refuse to admit it, that goes a bit beyond "innocent mistake". It's still not sinister, but it definitely says something about the person in front of you.

Also, it shows a fundamental lack of care on the part of the "twoofers," and anybody, when they make many mistakes in writing and speaking. They want to be taken as serious investigators, yet can't take the time to look up a word in a thesaurus or dictionary.


Agreed. I refuse to address anyone that doesn't even make an attempt at proper spelling and sentence structure (I'm talking about the wholesale murder of the English language by native speakers).

[Hokulele]

..and Bogdan Dzakovic didn't?

"It's pronounced the way it's spelled."
Det. Sgt. Stanley Wojciehowicz, NYPD


Heh, I was only looking for names of real people. That is clearly a made up name! :p

[Mince]

Possible, but all the Karen U. Kwiatkowskis also being Lt. Col. in the US Air Force with a PhD. The probability of such an occurance is staggering, but again not impossible


Agreed. Improbable but not impossible.

[Tony Szamboti]

Was it, perhaps, something to do with a couple of airliners being flown into them?

Please explain.

[9/11 Chewy Defense]

Mince, you said that I look like Johnny Depp on my Dylan Avery thread?

Interesting! :D