To the Christians .. why do you come on here?

[Elind]

Please do not take this the wrong way, but I believe that contributions to JREF should not add weight to your arguments on the forum. If your posts cannot stand on their own merits, maybe additional work is required.

That was a joke, doofus:covereyes

But I do believe it's a good way to generate visibility for supporting the Jref, and that I support, whatever my gripes on the forum are.


So, keep it coming and put your money where your mouth is.:D

[cj.23]

. Of Course Francis Collins is a Christian... but his god lies outside of science and he uses the "goldilocks universe" and morality to support his god and refuses to absorb any information about how such things evolve.

Just spotted this: Collins certainly does understand evolution and Natural Selection, and I can't see why you claim otherwise? I mean one does not get to be head of the Human Genome Project if a Creationist! Have a look at his latest book for a discussion of evolution in fact. Why does everyone seem to assume all Christians don't believe in Evolution? A small percentage of North American protestants don't believe in Evolution, something which has only really in the form of Young Earth Creationism become prominent since the 1960s. Yet so often it is assumed to be normative of all Christians, everywhere...

I think I get Collins position, which is in essence that Science as a naturalistic enterprise could not find a supernatural intervention by definition. Creation of nature is a Natural process, so we might expect reasonably to see how the thing was made, or came about - but even if God built the world in seven days with a hammer and trowel, we would only find evidence that the World was constructed with a hammer and trowel, because Science is limited to natural phenomena. Any purported supernatural bit in the process is simply outside of naturalistic enquiry.

cj x

[Elind]

I mean one does not get to be head of the Human Genome Project if a Creationist!

Technically, I don't see why not. That is a technical mapping project requiring administrative and technical skills. I can imagine (albeit with difficulty) someone with the skills required, doing it for the glory of the creator. (This is no comment on Collins, on whom I don't have an opinion)


A small percentage of North American protestants don't believe in Evolution, something which has only really in the form of Young Earth Creationism become prominent since the 1960s. Yet so often it is assumed to be normative of all Christians, everywhere...


By most surveys, and there have been many, roughly 50% of Americans do not believe in evolution. That actually amounts to more than 50% of Christians.

[cj.23]

By most surveys, and there have been many, roughly 50% of Americans do not believe in evolution. That actually amounts to more than 50% of Christians.

Ok, well in that case the Catholics aren't listening to what the Vatican says. In the last survey I saw of Christian ministers in the UK, 4% held to some form of Creationist belief. America is extremely bizarre here, for historical reasons (discussed in another thread) and it's a trend which dates back less time than I have been alive: at the time of the Monkey Trial Creationism was still an extreme minority position.

:(

cj x

[cj.23]

Incidentally, I'm reading Collin's The Language of God at the moment - and he utterly repudiates Creationism "Thus, by any reasonable standard, Young Earth creationism has reached a point of intellectual bankruptcy, both in it's Science and it's Theology." He also skewers the ID movement which he sees as an unscientific reaction to militant atheism - "the love child of Dawkins and Dennett" and says ID "fails to qualify as a scientific theory" and then critiques claims of irreducible complexity. Collin's is like myself and the vast majority of world wide Christians, not a literal Creationist! He holds to Theistic Evolution, again as do I. I always think it's worth clarifying these things, as it is so bizarre that a huge number of Americans have come since the 1960s to believe this stuff, as see it as normative for Christianity!

cj x

[g4macdad]

All Christians are dumb and all atheists are smart. Who doesn't know that?

This is called respect, and shows a strong sense of character.

All Christians are bigots! They should not have the same rights as everyone else.:cool:

[Snap]

I think christians may be here in their perceived roles as defenders of the faith. They may hope to dismantle the atheist's argument and cause him/her to see the error of it.

When I was a fully practicing Roman Catholic, I often wished I could stump the skeptic with some clever statement that would cause them to question their viewpoint. That never happened.

I was also warned to avoid atheists and not to listen to them under any circumstances. To do so was to put myself in harm's way and to seriously risk losing God forever if I succumbed to the atheist's position.

Why would anyone want to place themselves in such grave danger? If I were yet a devout Christian, I would feel as though I were sinning by visiting this Forum. I would no doubt go to the confessional with this statement: "Bless me, Father, for I have sinned. I have visited and read some of the posts in the JREF Forum!" I'm not joking when I say I would do this.

So to practicing believing Christians I say this: Beware, you're putting your soul in grave danger by reading these threads. Why are you doing that?

[g4macdad]

I think christians may be here in their perceived roles as defenders of the faith. They may hope to dismantle the atheist's argument and cause him/her to see the error of it.

When I was a fully practicing Roman Catholic, I often wished I could stump the skeptic with some clever statement that would cause them to question their viewpoint. That never happened.

I was also warned to avoid atheists and not to listen to them under any circumstances. To do so was to put myself in harm's way and to seriously risk losing God forever if I succumbed to the atheist's position.

Why would anyone want to place themselves in such grave danger? If I were yet a devout Christian, I would feel as though I were sinning by visiting this Forum. I would no doubt go to the confessional with this statement: "Bless me, Father, for I have sinned. I have visited and read some of the posts in the JREF Forum!" I'm not joking when I say I would do this.

So to practicing believing Christians I say this: Beware, you're putting your soul in grave danger by reading these threads. Why are you doing that?

Strange how little you seem to know about the Bible to believe what the the people of your church told you without researching it for yourself. I have no problem talking to atheists. That is because I only decided to become a Christian after I actually read the Bible myself. Unlike yourself.

Believe me, there are at least as many atheists who have turned to Jesus Christ, as Christians who have become atheists.

[Elind]

Ok, well in that case the Catholics aren't listening to what the Vatican says. In the last survey I saw of Christian ministers in the UK, 4% held to some form of Creationist belief. America is extremely bizarre here, for historical reasons (discussed in another thread) and it's a trend which dates back less time than I have been alive: at the time of the Monkey Trial Creationism was still an extreme minority position.

:(

cj x

As you say, Europe is vastly different in that regard, although I believe there is some resurgence by the woos lately. Cyclic stuff and all that. Catholics do have more respect from me due to the greater respect they have for science, but they have their obvious limits too, like the Pope telling Hawkins not to question creation too far.

As to the monkey trial days, I think that at the time these issues were not something average people thought about as much, but I doubt that if pressed most would not deny "creationism" in it's basic simple form. After all, the teacher was found guilty, was he not?

[Elind]

Believe me, there are at least as many atheists who have turned to Jesus Christ, as Christians who have become atheists.

You realize that invites a request for sources?

I have never met an atheist who was not raised as a Christian. You are probably referring to the "born again" category, presumably like yourself who simply had too much party time to think much about religion, then when they get converted they say they were atheists. Rubbish, they were not, they were simply lazy.

[Elind]

All Christians are dumb and all atheists are smart. Who doesn't know that?

This is called respect, and shows a strong sense of character.

All Christians are bigots! They should not have the same rights as everyone else.:cool:

I don't agree with that, facetiously said or not, but none of us are smart in all regards.

[g4macdad]

You realize that invites a request for sources?

I have never met an atheist who was not raised as a Christian. You are probably referring to the "born again" category, presumably like yourself who simply had too much party time to think much about religion, then when they get converted they say they were atheists. Rubbish, they were not, they were simply lazy.

Your post has the same amount of invites as mine or more. What exactly is your point anyway?

I never said I was an atheist. I could not have been, before I read the Bible. That would be truly ignorant.

[slyjoe]

Your post has the same amount of invites as mine or more. What exactly is your point anyway?

I never said I was an atheist. I could not have been, before I read the Bible. That would be truly ignorant.

So you were born believing in a god? Or not?

[g4macdad]

So you were born believing in a god? Or not?

LOL. I cannot remember that far back. But the Bible refers to the message you have heard from the beggining. So as long as I can remember I was very curious about God that we always heard about. After years of school and television scoffing at religion, I finally decided to make my own decision on the subject.

[slyjoe]

So if I understand your post correctly, you did not believe in god before you read the Bible?

[g4macdad]

So if I understand your post correctly, you did not believe in god before you read the Bible?

Not to the extent that I believe in him now.

[slyjoe]

It was a yes or no question. Either you did or did not believe in god before you read the bible.

[RandFan]

It was a yes or no question. Either you did or did not believe in god before you read the bible.I'm not sure that is a fair question. Belief is not like being pregnant. Humans are capable of coming to a degree of believing something is likely. In statistics this is called probability.

[Elind]

Your post has the same amount of invites as mine or more. What exactly is your point anyway?

You said: Believe me, there are at least as many atheists who have turned to Jesus Christ, as Christians who have become atheists.I should take that on blind faith as you say you do, or is it just an opinion, like the one I expressed, or do you have surveys to quote?

I never said I was an atheist. I could not have been, before I read the Bible. That would be truly ignorant.I didn't say you were an atheist. I said I assumed you were of the "born again" variety.

Why would it have been ignorant? Would you say that it is "ignorant" to conclude, without reading the bible, that there is no Being in the sky (so to speak) that created humans in order to have something that would worship, love, fear and generally be submissive and thankful for all the prophets carrying Its word in different forms to different peoples so their faith can be tested by what they do to each other.

Must be really boring, lonely, place up there in Heaven. Entertainment is everything.

No, I don't think that would be called ignorant, but I would say that it is vain to the extreme to suggest that this universe was created just for us. Isn't vanity one of the deadly sins?

[g4macdad]

You said: I should take that on blind faith as you say you do, or is it just an opinion, like the one I expressed, or do you have surveys to quote?

I didn't say you were an atheist. I said I assumed you were of the "born again" variety.

Why would it have been ignorant? Would you say that it is "ignorant" to conclude, without reading the bible, that there is no Being in the sky (so to speak) that created humans in order to have something that would worship, love, fear and generally be submissive and thankful for all the prophets carrying Its word in different forms to different peoples so their faith can be tested by what they do to each other.

Must be really boring, lonely, place up there in Heaven. Entertainment is everything.

No, I don't think that would be called ignorant, but I would say that it is vain to the extreme to suggest that this universe was created just for us. Isn't vanity one of the deadly sins?

So you are afraid to read the Bible?

[Tricky]

Believe me, there are at least as many atheists who have turned to Jesus Christ, as Christians who have become atheists.
According to some atheists here, all Christians are former atheists (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=86183).

And yeah, I've read the bible front to back. I keep a link to Bible Gateway (http://www.biblegateway.com/)in my favorites for easy reference. I am very grateful to the bible for showing me the way to atheism.

[Tricky]

You realize that invites a request for sources?

I have never met an atheist who was not raised as a Christian. You are probably referring to the "born again" category, presumably like yourself who simply had too much party time to think much about religion, then when they get converted they say they were atheists. Rubbish, they were not, they were simply lazy.
Sorry. I disagree with this. It is the "No true Scotsman" fallacy and I don't let myself use it in defense of atheism any more that I acknowledge it as a valid argument when plumjam argues that Hitler was not a Christian.

As far as I'm concerned, a person is atheist if they say they are. Being an atheist doesn't make you smarter or less susceptible to magical beliefs. It is simply a belief. Beliefs can change. I don't begrudge g4macdad his posse of former atheists. Their existence in no way lessens the validity of atheism.

But it would be interesting to have a discussion with one about their former beliefs, why they held them and why they don't now. Got any you can bring over here to talk to us, g4?

[JoeEllison]

Sorry. I disagree with this. It is the "No true Scotsman" fallacy and I don't let myself use it in defense of atheism any more that I acknowledge it as a valid argument when plumjam argues that Hitler was not a Christian.

As far as I'm concerned, a person is atheist if they say they are. Being an atheist doesn't make you smarter or less susceptible to magical beliefs. It is simply a belief. Beliefs can change. I don't begrudge g4macdad his posse of former atheists. Their existence in no way lessens the validity of atheism.

See, that's part of my reasoning for saying that atheism isn't a belief system: there is nothing linking one person's atheism to another, besides the lack of belief.

And, for the record, I have always been an atheist, so I have never been a Christian. Pleased to meet all of you.

[g4macdad]

See, that's part of my reasoning for saying that atheism isn't a belief system: there is nothing linking one person's atheism to another, besides the lack of belief.

And, for the record, I have always been an atheist, so I have never been a Christian. Pleased to meet all of you.

Is that your set-up in your avatar? If so, NICE!;) :D

Oops! Back on topic.

[articulett]

Strange how little you seem to know about the Bible to believe what the the people of your church told you without researching it for yourself. I have no problem talking to atheists. That is because I only decided to become a Christian after I actually read the Bible myself. Unlike yourself.

Believe me, there are at least as many atheists who have turned to Jesus Christ, as Christians who have become atheists.

Well you still don't know the truth then... you HAVE to read the Book of Mormon and clearly pray to know if it's true...

Rconk says so, http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=91122
and he's so much smarter, nicer, and seemingly christ like than you.

[articulett]

According to some atheists here, all Christians are former atheists (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=86183).

And yeah, I've read the bible front to back. I keep a link to Bible Gateway (http://www.biblegateway.com/)in my favorites for easy reference. I am very grateful to the bible for showing me the way to atheism.

Yes, reading the bible is a pretty sure route to atheism. I think most people do have religion inflicted upon them from birth, so it likely that many more believers become atheists (and that is surely my experience) than the other way around.

This isn't an authoritative source, but Paul Provenza did say this at one TAM, and I still think it's funny with a bit of truth in the observation:

"I've met smart Christians and dumb Christians, but I've never met a dumb atheist"...

[g4macdad]

Well you still don't know the truth then... you HAVE to read the Book of Mormon and clearly pray to know if it's true...

Rconk says so, http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=91122
and he's so much smarter, nicer, and seemingly christ like than you.

So you believe in Christ then?:p I am glad to see that you came around.:D

[g4macdad]

Yes, reading the bible is a pretty sure route to atheism. I think most people do have religion inflicted upon them from birth, so it likely that many more believers become atheists (and that is surely my experience) than the other way around.

This isn't an authoritative source, but Paul Provenza did say this at one TAM, and I still think it's funny with a bit of truth in the observation:

"I've met smart Christians and dumb Christians, but I've never met a dumb atheist"...

All Christians are dumb and all atheists are smart. Who doesn't know that?

This is called respect, and shows a strong sense of character.

All Christians are bigots! They should not have the same rights as everyone else.:cool: Thank You.

[slyjoe]

I'm not sure that is a fair question. Belief is not like being pregnant. Humans are capable of coming to a degree of believing something is likely. In statistics this is called probability.

Point taken. In general, I agree that this is not a fair question in most cases, especially when dealing with a poster in good faith. I was really trying to understand g4macdad's statement that he could not have been an atheist before he read the bible. This, I cannot understand. Aren't we all born atheist, and religion is a learned behavior?

And, in passing, I would hesitate to equate a firmness in belief to statistics and probability. The thread on probability of god illustrates the problem. Firmness of belief, and its degree, I can understand.

[Elind]

So you are afraid to read the Bible?

Nonplussed.

Got me there.

I used to in Sunday school. Left me nonplussed too.

[Hokulele]

So you are afraid to read the Bible?


Do you believe that anyone who reads the bible in its entirety will automatically convert to christianity? There was a poll on this forum not too long ago asking how many posters had read the bible, the quran, or other religious texts. It was a public poll, so you could see who had read what.

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2533446#post2533446

[Elind]

And, for the record, I have always been an atheist, so I have never been a Christian. Pleased to meet all of you.

Well, in retrospect I might say I was too, inasmuch as we are all born that way. My early experience of indoctrination was by custom, not serious conviction. My children were brought up as skeptics, not atheists, but that is what they would call themselves now, given the funny aspects of being required to kiss the (whatever) of an omnipotent being and all that, which G4 thinks is written in the ultimate novel.

I note also that he has little to say beyond quips to the comments directed at him.

[JoeEllison]

Do you believe that anyone who reads the bible in its entirety will automatically convert to christianity? There was a poll on this forum not too long ago asking how many posters had read the bible, the quran, or other religious texts. It was a public poll, so you could see who had read what.

Missed that one. For the record, I've read the Bible a few times. Boring, clumsy, mostly flat and lifeless prose(with a couple of overheated exceptions), internally inconsistant and clearly the work of a diseased culture.

[Elind]

Do you believe that anyone who reads the bible in its entirety will automatically convert to christianity? There was a poll on this forum not too long ago asking how many posters had read the bible, the quran, or other religious texts. It was a public poll, so you could see who had read what.

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2533446#post2533446

All that shows is that this forum is populated by atheists or agnostics; but we know that.

However as an atheist I would say that anyone who calls themselves agnostic is still in the grasshopper stage, before gaining wings.

Trust me, I was too. It's a common stage of metamorphosis of the intellect.