Miracles and Healings

[ned flandas]

Hi guys

I've tatted around on this site for a bit and haven't seen much discussion on 'signs and wonders' that people experience all over the world. Would love to know your thoughts please...

http://myspacetv.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=295838

[JoeEllison]

Those are some horrible, ugly human beings. What a bunch of frauds.

[ned flandas]

Those are some horrible, ugly human beings. What a bunch of frauds.

deep ...

[JoeEllison]

deep ...Yeah, well... how much time do you want to waste on these scumbags, really?

[Fnord]

Miracles, signs, and wonders are usually labelled as such because people want to believe in such things, even when confronted with evidence against it (I know ... I know ... I'm "preaching to the choir" here ...)

1) Two policemen died in separate accidents on the same freeway. When my wife found out, her reaction was similar to "It's a miracle that we weren't involved!" When I pointed out that we lived about 30 miles from where the policemen lost their lives, AND that it had been two days since we had even been on the same freeway (and nowhere near the accident sites), she still called it a miracle that we were spared.

2) A cousin was trying to decide whether or not she should marry her boyfriend (no, she did not "have to" get married). One day, she stopped at a traffic light near a school, where she saw a woman and a man walk a child up to the entrance. "She had on the same coat as mine! That's a sign! They looked so happy, too!" Four years later, she's signing a divorce papers with a broken hand and her jaws wired shut. Seems that her boyfriend was a violent and jealous drug addict.

3) Finally, it is truly a wondrous experience to hold your new-born child, especially the first one. All those endorphins surging through your brain at the same time that the adrenalin is releasing its hold on your heart. Suddenly, it's just you and that baby. A wondrous feeling ... produced for your enjoyment through your own biochemistry.

The interpretation of signs, miracles, and wonders is purely subjective, and under the control of hormonal reactions and wishful thinking. No more, and no less.

I will, however, believe that a miracle is indeed a miracles when God Himself stands in front of me and tells me that it is so. Hey ... extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence, right?

;)

[JoeEllison]

Why can they only grow back eyeballs in tiny villages in Africa?

[This Guy]

Why can they only grow back eyeballs in tiny villages in Africa?

Looked to me like there was an eye in there to start with.

But to add to your question, why is there never any proper medical diagnosis of all these cured diseases?

In 6 months, to a year, how many of those "healed" people will have died from their untreated diseases?

I only watched the first few minutes, but was any evidence given for any disease? Any before and after pictures of those tumors? Should have been at least some external signs that could have been shown to have gone away.

If my stomach gets a little stronger, I'll try to watch the whole video. But so far I've watched a lot of these guys and gals, and I've yet to see anything that looked like a true, verifiable healing. And I strongly suspect Todd knows he isn't healing anyone. But I bet he's raking in the money!

[ned flandas]

If my stomach gets a little stronger, I'll try to watch the whole video. But so far I've watched a lot of these guys and gals, and I've yet to see anything that looked like a true, verifiable healing. And I strongly suspect Todd knows he isn't healing anyone. But I bet he's raking in the money!

Todd Bentley (and others like him) are all over the place in America and the UK.

If you have the stomach and the curiosity why don't you go and see for yourself what happends...

[This Guy]

Todd Bentley (and others like him) are all over the place in America and the UK.

If you have the stomach and the curiosity why don't you go and see for yourself what happends...

Yes. Someday, perhaps they will get as good as the master!

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But that's OK. If I want to see someone fake miracles, I'll go to a magic act. The audience there will be expecting to be tricked.

(and I've been to a few pentecostal churchs and seen "healings", "speaking in tongues", and the other "signs". I wasn't impressed)

[JoeEllison]

Looked to me like there was an eye in there to start with.

But to add to your question, why is there never any proper medical diagnosis of all these cured diseases?

In 6 months, to a year, how many of those "healed" people will have died from their untreated diseases?

I only watched the first few minutes, but was any evidence given for any disease? Any before and after pictures of those tumors? Should have been at least some external signs that could have been shown to have gone away.

If my stomach gets a little stronger, I'll try to watch the whole video. But so far I've watched a lot of these guys and gals, and I've yet to see anything that looked like a true, verifiable healing. And I strongly suspect Todd knows he isn't healing anyone. But I bet he's raking in the money!

Isn't that the exact answer to my question? There's no better anecdote than the sort that takes place in some isolated village in some unnamed part of some far-off country. They sell it to the rubes here in America, none of whom ever ask why these flashy miracles are never performed here, on camera, where they can be confirmed.

[This Guy]

Isn't that the exact answer to my question? There's no better anecdote than the sort that takes place in some isolated village in some unnamed part of some far-off country. They sell it to the rubes here in America, none of whom ever ask why these flashy miracles are never performed here, on camera, where they can be confirmed.

Yes! Sorry if it seemed I was knocking your post.

I was agreeing with it.

Just added some more questions that crossed my mind after reading your post.

:)

[JoeEllison]

You really only have to watch long enough to hear the guy-uh talk-uh like-uh THEE-IS-US, to know that he's a fraud.

[ned flandas]

You really only have to watch long enough to hear the guy-uh talk-uh like-uh THEE-IS-US, to know that he's a fraud.

Shouldn't there be a little more investigation beyond getting the tar brush out?

I thought this board was where the intellectuals resided.

[Cello Man]

Ned, has a faith healer ever been able to regrow a severed limb? Why not? Why is it that prayers for medical "miracles" are always limited to things that have a statistical chance of happening naturally anyway?

[JoeEllison]

Shouldn't there be a little more investigation beyond getting the tar brush out?

I thought this board was where the intellectuals resided.
How many frauds does one have to see exposed before one is able to identify patterns and make educated judgments?
All he has to do is heal a single person in a way that is recognized by objective observers, and he can shut up all of his critics. Why doesn't he?

And why are you so eager to believe people whose claims are incredibly likely to be false? If you see 10,000 frauds, why would you assume that #10,001 is legitimate until disproved?

[arthwollipot]

Todd Bentley (and others like him) are all over the place in America and the UK.

If you have the stomach and the curiosity why don't you go and see for yourself what happends...

When I was a member of a pentacostal church, I witnessed a miracle healing. An elderly lady was helped up out of her wheelchair and walked on her own! A miracle! Hallelujah!

Since then I realised that I didn't know who the woman was, or whether she was genuinely wheelchair bound. I have found out that revivals provide wheelchairs to elderly people who look frail, especially so that they can help them out of them. On reflection, it's a bit weird that the "healer" helped this woman to stand when all around her people were falling down... Anyway.

Randi and others can simulate "psychic surgery" by using chicken blood and giblets. Check them out sometime - it's really quite disturbing. These people are frauds and charlatans. Some of them may actually believe in what they are doing - some of them may simply be con artists exploiting the weak and vulnerable for their own personal gain. Search the JREF archives for items about "Peter Popoff"

[ned flandas]

Ned, has a faith healer ever been able to regrow a severed limb? Why not? Why is it that prayers for medical "miracles" are always limited to things that have a statistical chance of happening naturally anyway?

Not sure I understand the term 'faith healer'. Please explain.

[Cello Man]

Not sure I understand the term 'faith healer'. Please explain.

The type of person in the video you posted. As far as terminology goes, it doesn't get much more self explanatory than that. Don't take this as an insult because I don't mean it as such, but is English your first language?

[ned flandas]

is English your first language?

It's supposed to be... ;)

The type of person in the video you posted. As far as terminology goes, it doesn't get much more self explanatory than that.?

Todd Bentley is just a Christian that happends to heal many many people. There are lots of them about. There are also a HUGE amount of 'false teachers' and 'scam artists', but the Bible said there would be so that's not a shock.

So I completely understand the frustration of skeptics on here, but I believe many miracles do happen. And yes they do seem to happen in Africa, Asia etc more than the US and UK. Why's that?? I personally think it's an issue of faith but that's another conversation.

[Cello Man]

...Todd Bentley is just a Christian that happends to heal many many people.

Has anyone with a medical background been able to provide confirmation of that? Has a person being "healed" ever been examined before and after, to prove that a real medical condition that once existed has vanished with no explanation other than a miracle? In short, where's the evidence?

There are lots of them about. There are also a HUGE amount of 'false teachers' and 'scam artists', but the Bible said there would be so that's not a shock.

It doesn't take an omniscient being to predict that there will always be scammers among the credulous and uneducated, so the fact that the Bible "predicts" it should hardly impress you. What criteria do you use to tell the difference between a genuine miracle worker and a false teacher that simply hasn't been caught yet?

So I completely understand the frustration of skeptics on here, but I believe many miracles do happen. And yes they do seem to happen in Africa, Asia etc more than the US and UK. Why's that??

God loves people in the US and UK less? But seriously, do you think this has nothing to do with poor education? In these impovrished parts of the world, oral tradition and storytelling is how a lot of information (or misinformation) spreads. But as a forumite here once said, "The plural of anecdote is not evidence". We have the scientific method, which has given us higher yield food crops, rockets to the moon, increased life expectancy, etc. Yet some people still insist in the 21st century that waving your hands in the air and speaking in tongues is productive, despite an agonizing lack of evidence to support this wrongheaded idea.

I personally think it's an issue of faith but that's another conversation.

Yes, this is an issue of faith. Faith versus Reason, specifically. And no, that isn't another conversation, it is entirely and wholly pertinent to this discussion.

[slingblade]

It's supposed to be... ;)

Then I don't understand how you can't at least puzzle out what a faith healer is, or just go look up the term.

You know what I hate with a hatred that will not die? The dictionary argument. I'll serve as example: I use a word with which another poster claims unfamiliarity. I suggest the poster go look the word up.

The poster insists that since it's "my" word, I am obligated to provide the definition for it. I do so. And the poster, who had no clue what the word was just a few minutes ago, quibbles with the definition I provide, and insists that's not what the word means to him/her.

It's an exercise in stupidity, and trust me: my stupid-muscles are already too strong. It's my intellegence-muscles that need work.

Todd Bentley is just a Christian that happends to heal many many people.

See, you're in trouble right from the off. Todd isn't healing anyone, is he? Really? Isn't it supposed to be your god who's doing the healing?

There are lots of them about. There are also a HUGE amount of 'false teachers' and 'scam artists', but the Bible said there would be so that's not a shock.

Adhering to the reinforced forum rules, I'd call that "covering your tushie."

"Some people are false practitioners of healing, so when they are all you can seem to find, just remember we said that would happen. If you have faith, someday you will find a real healer. Maybe. With faith. Lots of it. Maybe."

So I completely understand the frustration of skeptics on here, but I believe many miracles do happen.

That's the problem. You believe it. Can you prove it?

I believed in lots of things (just about everything, really), only a few years ago. And I got hurt by virtually all of that belief. Now, I want proof. I'm like Roger Daltry: "We won't get fooled again. No, no." You have no proof, I have no reason to listen.

My mom is currently dying from COPD. I'm tending her, 24/7. Right now, she is praying for Jesus to move her bowels. She hasn't gone in over a week. You'd think letting someone evacuate would be a snap for a truly loving and merciful god, but he's seen fit to let her suffer. Sorry, but if you want me to believe in your god, I am left with no choice but to accept that he's torturing my mother.

In fact, what's happening to my mother is perfectly normal, given her medical condition. It's easily explicable without resorting to the supernatural. The nurse is coming out this afternoon to administer an enema. When it works, my darling mother will probably say "Thank you, Jesus." I won't argue with her. But I don't agree with her, either.


And yes they do seem to happen in Africa, Asia etc more than the US and UK. Why's that??

They seem to happen because people lie about it. How hard is that?

You are aware that in many places in Africa, people are still murdered, often brutally, for being witches and casting spells, right? The belief in magic is still quite strong among some folks, and that covers religious belief as well.

I personally think it's an issue of faith but that's another conversation.

How convenient. :)

[Jekyll]

So I completely understand the frustration of skeptics on here, but I believe many miracles do happen. And yes they do seem to happen in Africa, Asia etc more than the US and UK. Why's that?? I

Because it's a long, long way away.

Here's a sample `miracle' that got passed on to me via a friend who was witnessed at over breakfast a while ago.

Apparently, when the tsunami devastated Malaysia a couple of years ago, one single church standing on the beach was saved. The story goes that the preacher came running out of the building, saw the wave coming towards him, and as he spread his arms out wide, the water parted around him and the church.

It's a silly story, but one which was told with honesty and conviction. In all probability, no one sat down and made it up, but its just a patched together recollection of Charlton Heston playing Moses and a game of Chinese whispers.

In another thread you say you have a friend who saw a friend grow his arm back.

You don't.

You might have a friend who said he has "a friend who saw a friend grow his arm back." but he doesn't.

What he perhaps has, is a friend who said he has "a friend who saw a friend grow his arm back."

and so it goes.

If you take the time to track down these rumours you'll find nothing but a wild goose chase, with no man with an arm that grew back at the end of it.