Jews are God's Chosen People?

[Thunder]

I can't see any positive result of this belief. Ariel Sharon once said that Israel has the right to judge other nations..but no nations have the right to judge Israel. If this kind of thinking, that the Jews are special and the rest of the world is somehow less, then the chosenness concept is useless and bs.

But if Jews believe that their chosenness means that they have a special role in the world, to spread a certain message of morality and justice, then that is a good thing. But in this world, nothing is ever sunshine and sugar cane.

The Germans thought they were God's gift to the world. The Jews think they are the Chosen. Muslims think they are the best. The Japanese thought they were special. I don't see the difference and I don't see anything good coming from any of these beliefs.

All people are valuable and special. Anytime any group of people think they are superior..either in the eyes of God..or from evolution..or what have you...bad things happen.

[JoeEllison]

Lots of people pull that sort of crap. It allows them to treat other people like dirt, and demand special treatment for themselves.

[Cleon]

Notice that God never said what exactly we're chosen for. :D

[JoeEllison]

Notice that God never said what exactly we're chosen for. :D

Notice that no one ever claims that someone else is chosen?

[a_unique_person]

I can't see any positive result of this belief. Ariel Sharon once said that Israel has the right to judge other nations..but no nations have the right to judge Israel. If this kind of thinking, that the Jews are special and the rest of the world is somehow less, then the chosenness concept is useless and bs.

But if Jews believe that their chosenness means that they have a special role in the world, to spread a certain message of morality and justice, then that is a good thing. But in this world, nothing is ever sunshine and sugar cane.

The Germans thought they were God's gift to the world. The Jews think they are the Chosen. Muslims think they are the best. The Japanese thought they were special. I don't see the difference and I don't see anything good coming from any of these beliefs.

All people are valuable and special. Anytime any group of people think they are superior..either in the eyes of God..or from evolution..or what have you...bad things happen.

It is a central conceit of every religion that it has the one, true insight into god. The Pope recently re-iterated that view for the Catholic Church. Judaism seems to have it's own way of making that claim, but it seems to be unique in that it has come from a much older time in human history. For the Jews, to identify one, all powerful god was a step forward in human thinking, from the polytheism of other religions of the time. However, this one god was also only interested in one race. Xianity took the next logical step from there to see the one god as being interested in all races.

[wollery]

The Judaic belief is actually that any human can get to heaven, by good deeds, but Jews are guaranteed a place.

That's it. Anything else is modern interpretation.

[Thunder]

I have asked this question many times, and I really don't think that Jews believe in Heaven or Hell. I think the Old Testament does mention something about the resurrection of the dead when the Messiah comes, but I really don't think there is anything in the Old Testament that discusses an actual afterlife of punishment or reward. Please correct me with chapter and verse if I am wrong.

But I also do know, that within Judaism, we do provide for a non-Jewish way of being in God's favor. Its called the "Noachide" laws, which is basically the laws of all the children of Noah. It includes abolition of idol worship and other things, but non-Jews are not required to obey kosher laws and follow Jewish rituals inorder for God to like them. As to being of a Jewish mother insuring reward..even if you don't follow the laws? Im pretty sure that a Jew who breaks all of the laws is less in God's favor then a Gentile who consciously follows all of the Noachide laws.

[Mobyseven]

In terms of heaven and hell - Judaism has one, but not the other. I cannot provide a chapter and verse for that, indeed I'm not even sure if it is from the bible or from Talmud or Midrash. However, the concept of eternal punishment is foreign to Judaism, as is redemption through physical punishment in the afterlife.

In short - Judaism has a heaven, but no hell. I'm too hungover to go sourcing claims or to get more in depth today.

[hgc]

In terms of heaven and hell - Judaism has one, but not the other. I cannot provide a chapter and verse for that, indeed I'm not even sure if it is from the bible or from Talmud or Midrash. However, the concept of eternal punishment is foreign to Judaism, as is redemption through physical punishment in the afterlife.

In short - Judaism has a heaven, but no hell. I'm too hungover to go sourcing claims or to get more in depth today.


Does that mean when I go to heaven I have to share it with Ariel Sharon? Oy gevalt! That guy hogs the shrimp cocktail - no grace, a regular shmendrick.

[a_unique_person]

In short - Judaism has a heaven, but no hell. I'm too hungover to go sourcing claims or to get more in depth today.

On a weekday :eye-poppi?

[Pope130]

Notice that God never said what exactly we're chosen for. :D

In answer to this question David Ben Gurion once said; "Yes, I do believe that God has chosen us. But I don't think he likes us very much."

Robert

[Complexity]

Their mommy thinks they're special.

Just like everybody else.

[Beerina]

The Judaic belief is actually that any human can get to heaven, by good deeds, but Jews are guaranteed a place.

That's it. Anything else is modern interpretation.

I thought Jews believed when you died, you died. There was no resurrection to afterlife. At least, that's what my Jewish buddy told me. Hence, as he described it, the "teenage Jewish thinking lad's preoccupation with death."

[Wowbagger]

Yep. "Chosen people" is just a sneaky, pleasant-sounding way of saying "Hey, guess what? I'm a freakin' bigot! Woo-hooo!!"

I never liked the idea of "chosen people". Even though I happen to be of Jewish heritage.

[Dumbledore]

The Judaic belief is actually that any human can get to heaven, by good deeds, but Jews are guaranteed a place.

That's it. Anything else is modern interpretation.

But the vast majority of Judaism is about modern interpretation, some Jewish groups don't engage in this but many do. This is one of the major differences between Judaism and most Christan thinking. Also I would like to see your proof that Jews believed this.:cool:

[Dumbledore]

[QUOTE=parky76;2847302}

But I also do know, that within Judaism, we do provide for a non-Jewish way of being in God's favor. Its called the "Noachide" laws, which is basically the laws of all the children of Noah. It includes abolition of idol worship and other things, but non-Jews are not required to obey kosher laws and follow Jewish rituals inorder for God to like them. As to being of a Jewish mother insuring reward..even if you don't follow the laws? Im pretty sure that a Jew who breaks all of the laws is less in God's favor then a Gentile who consciously follows all of the Noachide laws.[/QUOTE]

That is exactly my point, being God's chosen people leads to greater responsibility, not some special status they as a people inherently have. Even then there is a path those who are not Jewish to be favored by God, which strangely enough does not involve becoming Jewish!;)

[Dumbledore]

In answer to this question David Ben Gurion once said; "Yes, I do believe that God has chosen us. But I don't think he likes us very much."

Robert

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! that is a great quote. That my friends is a great example of how most Jews view themselves.:D

[Dumbledore]

Yep. "Chosen people" is just a sneaky, pleasant-sounding way of saying "Hey, guess what? I'm a freakin' bigot! Woo-hooo!!"

I never liked the idea of "chosen people". Even though I happen to be of Jewish heritage.

It really has to do with what you read into being a chosen people. Does it mean your inherently better than anyone else. Or does it mean you have to work harder to be a good person than most people do! That is that the standards for you are much higher to be a good person than someone who is not Jewish.:cool:

[Cello Man]

I remember in America: The Book, put out by The Daily Show, there was a bit about the whole "chosen people" thing. Jon Stewart clearly has his tongue in cheek even when you consider his own Jewish heritage. Towards the beginning of the book was a mini-timeline of world history, and one snippet will always stick with me. I'll paraphrase from memory:

1000 B.C. (or whenever it was supposed to happen) The Lord Jehovah declares His sacred covenant with the Jews, stating that they are His chosen people, and most loved in the eyes of God. Nothing bad ever happens to Jews again.

[wollery]

But the vast majority of Judaism is about modern interpretation, some Jewish groups don't engage in this but many do. This is one of the major differences between Judaism and most Christan thinking. Also I would like to see your proof that Jews believed this.:cool:I'm afraid I have no proof, it's what I was told by one of the world's leading Talmudic scholars.

[Mobyseven]

Found some information - the articles should speak for themselves. Mostly, the Jewish concept of an afterlife is based upon Talmudic legend and the Zohar, which means that far more emphasis is placed upon the afterlife in the mystical Kabbalic sect, whereas most Jews do not dwell on the afterlife and mysticism so much, instead living for life.

The Afterlife. (http://www.pantheon.org/articles/a/afterlife.html)

Final Resurrection. (http://www.pantheon.org/articles/r/resurrection.html)

Does that mean when I go to heaven I have to share it with Ariel Sharon? Oy gevalt! That guy hogs the shrimp cocktail - no grace, a regular shmendrick.

Nah, by the time you get to heaven, Sharon will have stopped being such a putz...such a nebbish schmuck better undergo a change!

On a weekday :eye-poppi?

Slap me sideways and call me a uni student. ;)

[Wowbagger]

It really has to do with what you read into being a chosen people. Does it mean your inherently better than anyone else. Or does it mean you have to work harder to be a good person than most people do!Either way, it's still bigotry. Reverse discrimination is still discrimination.

That is that the standards for you are much higher to be a good person than someone who is not Jewish.I have no problem with self-motivation: everyone should look within themselves to find reasons to be a better person.
But, the claim that God sets the standards differently for one group, than others, is not where you are going find it.

[Loss Leader]

I think that most people misinterpret "chosen." Jews were chosen by God to receive his laws and ... nothing else. We're not better, we're not worse, we're not even really diffreent. We just have custody of God's laws.

And here's the great part - we put them on the internet! Anybody who wants them can have them. Anybody who cares to practice the faith is welcome no matter who you are or which party you voted for (except Republicans).

It's not bigotry, it's not pride, it's not reverse discrimination. It's just an obligation we chose to undertake for an indeterminate amount of time at an overwhelming cost for no particular reward.

[Wowbagger]

I think that most people misinterpret "chosen." Jews were chosen by God to receive his laws and ... nothing else. We're not better, we're not worse, we're not even really diffreent. We just have custody of God's laws.

And here's the great part - we put them on the internet! Anybody who wants them can have them. Anybody who cares to practice the faith is welcome no matter who you are or which party you voted for (except Republicans).

It's not bigotry, it's not pride, it's not reverse discrimination. It's just an obligation we chose to undertake for an indeterminate amount of time at an overwhelming cost for no particular reward.Ah, so it sounds like God is the bigot, then... Well, I suppose I better not argue against Him! :rolleyes:

(LL, don't take this response personally. You know I love ya!)

[Loss Leader]

Ah, so it sounds like God is the bigot


Listen, everybody knows the famous Bible story from Exodus: God had these five great commandments on this one stone tablet. First he offered them to the Italians. The Italians asked, "Can we still drink wine." God answered, "Sure, just not on Saturday mornings." The Italians said to forget it.

He went to the French. The French asked if they could still sleep with their neighbor's wives. God didn't even answer.

Last, he went to the Jews. "Listen," he said, "I've got this one great tablet of laws I'd like to give to you ..." Before he finished, the Jews asked, "How much?" God sort of looked around a little and answered, "Well, um, it's free."

"We'll take two!"

[kittynh]

A book I'm reading called "Survival of the Sickest" (it's a great book) talks about tracing DNA in a "tribe" of Isreal, the Cohanim. The odd thing is that even though they are spread all over the world, they have genetic markers that are so specific they were all almost certainly descended from just a few male indaviduals. Africa, Asia and Europe - blonde haired/blue eyed, dark hair/dark eyes....they all shared a similar marker. Science has even dated when these first males lived, 3,180 years ago...exactly when Aaron (the person they claim as their founder) lived.

If nothing else, simply surviving all that time as a culture, through serious hatred and difficult times, makes the Jews rather interesting.

[Wowbagger]

Listen, everybody knows the famous Bible story from Exodus:
...(snip)...
"We'll take two!" No fair! You used humor as an argument stopper!! :cry1

[wollery]

The way I heard it;

Moses was crawling through the desert with the Israelites behind him and pleads to God for water.
God says, "Sorry Moses, I'm all out of water at the moment, but I've got some tablets of stone with commandments on them."
Moses replies, "That's no good, we need water, we're dying of thirst."
God says, "Sorry, no water, just these stone tablets."
Moses says, "What good are stone tablets with commandments on them?"
God says, "Well, they're free."
Moses says, "I'll take ten!"

[yairhol]

Ariel Sharon once said that Israel has the right to judge other nations..but no nations have the right to judge Israel

Source please.....

Regards,
Yair

[Jeff Corey]

Dorothy Parker: How odd of God to choose the Jews.
Lenny Bruce: Shaddup, you stupid shiksa. And **** *** *** *** ***** you rode in on.

[Dumbledore]

The interesting thing about this being chosen is that the Jewish people choose to take this responsibility from God. God did not give this chosen status to Jewish people because they were somehow better, but because they were the only ones to accept this chosen status with God. As I said before this being chosen is a status of greater responsibility not of being special or better than others.;)

[Dumbledore]

I'm afraid I have no proof, it's what I was told by one of the world's leading Talmudic scholars.

And you are mistaken if you are going to take the interpretation of a single "authority". Literally Judaism consists of thousands of years of religious interpretation and argumentation about interpretation. The great thing about Judaism is that you can decide for yourself. To state something so absolutely about Judaism is a mistake especially if it is stated from a single "authority".

[Civilized Worm]

I think that most people misinterpret "chosen." Jews were chosen by God to receive his laws and ... nothing else. We're not better, we're not worse, we're not even really diffreent. We just have custody of God's laws.


They were also chosen to go about slaughtering neighboring tribes.


23:27 I will send my fear before thee, and will destroy all the people to whom thou shalt come, and I will make all thine enemies turn their backs unto thee.


That's when god wasn't "choosing" them to slaughter eachother:


32:27 And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.

32:28 And the children of Levi did according to the word of Moses: and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men.


And here's the great part - we put them on the internet! Anybody who wants them can have them. Anybody who cares to practice the faith is welcome no matter who you are or which party you voted for (except Republicans).


If I practiced the faith true to the book I'd be locked up.


It's not bigotry, it's not pride, it's not reverse discrimination. It's just an obligation we chose to undertake for an indeterminate amount of time at an overwhelming cost for no particular reward.


11:7 But against any of the children of Israel shall not a dog move his tongue, against man or beast: that ye may know how that the LORD doth put a difference between the Egyptians and Israel.


19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

[Loss Leader]

They were also chosen to go about slaughtering neighboring tribes.


23:27 I will send my fear before thee, and will destroy all the people to whom thou shalt come, and I will make all thine enemies turn their backs unto thee.


That's when god wasn't "choosing" them to slaughter eachother:


32:27 And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.

32:28 And the children of Levi did according to the word of Moses: and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men.





If I practiced the faith true to the book I'd be locked up.





11:7 But against any of the children of Israel shall not a dog move his tongue, against man or beast: that ye may know how that the LORD doth put a difference between the Egyptians and Israel.


19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.


The mistake you are making is to confuse the Hebrew tribe of antiquity with the Jewish religion of today.

Whether the book says that stuff or not, it is not modern Judaism.

[Civilized Worm]

So was god just kidding when he said that stuff?

[Loss Leader]

So was god just kidding when he said that stuff?


You have your answer.

[Civilized Worm]

No I don't, I'm genuinely interested in how you can justifiy ignoring god's laws that you find unpleasant while still holding up the nice bits as inerrant.

[Gregoire]

And you are mistaken if you are going to take the interpretation of a single "authority". Literally Judaism consists of thousands of years of religious interpretation and argumentation about interpretation. The great thing about Judaism is that you can decide for yourself. To state something so absolutely about Judaism is a mistake especially if it is stated from a single "authority".


Ten years ago I was dating a Jewish woman and she took me to a "Havurah" at someone's house where they discussed their religion. I was amazed at how their religion looked at issues of the day using reason and logic rather than blind faith (as I had been taught to do when I was being raised as a Christian).

Obviously, for me to be there (and dating a Jewish woman), they had to be pretty liberal, so I always wondered if their methods were shared by more conservative denominations of Judaism. My impression was that it was the case.

It always seemed odd to me that Christianity and Judaism could be so different in this regard since the former was derived from the latter.

[Oliver]

I can't see any positive result of this belief. Ariel Sharon once said that Israel has the right to judge other nations..but no nations have the right to judge Israel. If this kind of thinking, that the Jews are special and the rest of the world is somehow less, then the chosenness concept is useless and bs.

But if Jews believe that their chosenness means that they have a special role in the world, to spread a certain message of morality and justice, then that is a good thing. But in this world, nothing is ever sunshine and sugar cane.

The Germans thought they were God's gift to the world. The Jews think they are the Chosen. Muslims think they are the best. The Japanese thought they were special. I don't see the difference and I don't see anything good coming from any of these beliefs.

All people are valuable and special. Anytime any group of people think they are superior..either in the eyes of God..or from evolution..or what have you...bad things happen.


And I might add that this behavior of "believing" in something and also claiming it is better than everyone else's believes, is the root of all bigger conflicts in human history.

I also go so far to claim that sentences like "Evil States" and "Axis of Evil" will "ring a bell" in believers minds - and of course, both sides of the Issue.

Why? Because "Evil" implies "Our believes are not evil. Others believes are".

This is when religion can be misused. As you already pointed out in your historical examples. Even if the Nazis preferred to use other believes above religious believes - besides (quote) "Jews are evil in general". (/quote)

[ConspiRaider]

Choosy mothers choose Jif.

Choosy Mover choose Jews.

[Dumbledore]

They were also chosen to go about slaughtering neighboring tribes.


23:27 I will send my fear before thee, and will destroy all the people to whom thou shalt come, and I will make all thine enemies turn their backs unto thee.


That's when god wasn't "choosing" them to slaughter eachother:


32:27 And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.

32:28 And the children of Levi did according to the word of Moses: and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men.





If I practiced the faith true to the book I'd be locked up.





11:7 But against any of the children of Israel shall not a dog move his tongue, against man or beast: that ye may know how that the LORD doth put a difference between the Egyptians and Israel.


19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

So what exactly is your point besides slandering Jews every where. Yes there is extreme violence in our old religious texts, do you see modern Jews practicing this? No one follows these examples, our religion has to do with a cultural understanding and modern interpretation, just like other religions. So again are you making some larger point, like only Jews attacked people in the ancient past, or are you just trying to paint an inaccurate picture of modern Judaism?

[Dumbledore]

No I don't, I'm genuinely interested in how you can justifiy ignoring god's laws that you find unpleasant while still holding up the nice bits as inerrant.

Well Jews feel that they have a convent with God that grows and changes according to the times and culture that they live in. Hence what goes in ancient times does not work now. Furthermore the idea of God's laws is a very Christan one, to really understand the importance and role these ancient statements play in Judaism you would have to talk to a Rabbi. But the concept of absolute laws from God is a foreign one in Judaism, there are rules we are suppose to follow, but the idea of absolute laws does not makes since, in relation to how Jews view their convent with God, which is a growing and adapting relationship. But I am no expert, you should seek out a Rabbi if you want your questions answers, more than one, you will get many different answers! Hence the beauty of Judaism, many opinions are allowed!

[Dumbledore]

Ten years ago I was dating a Jewish woman and she took me to a "Havurah" at someone's house where they discussed their religion. I was amazed at how their religion looked at issues of the day using reason and logic rather than blind faith (as I had been taught to do when I was being raised as a Christian).

Obviously, for me to be there (and dating a Jewish woman), they had to be pretty liberal, so I always wondered if their methods were shared by more conservative denominations of Judaism. My impression was that it was the case.

It always seemed odd to me that Christianity and Judaism could be so different in this regard since the former was derived from the latter.

But Christianity is not really derived from Judaism. Christians took many Jewish beliefs and mixed them with Roman beliefs. Christianity is not Jewish in origin, though many Christians claim that it is. Jews do not believe in the personification of God, so Christ if right out of the picture. This makes Christianity distinctly non-Jewish.

As for conservative Jews, from what I have read no they would not agree with you, but every religion has its conservatives. The only difference with Judaism is that the progressive Jews outnumber the conservatives!;)

[Bri]

As for conservative Jews, from what I have read no they would not agree with you, but every religion has its conservatives. The only difference with Judaism is that the progressive Jews outnumber the conservatives!;)

Orthodox Jews not only allow questioning the religion, but encourage it. If you read the Talmud (explanations and discussions of the Old Testament by a number of old rabbis), you'll see that the old rabbis of the Talmud constantly disagreed with each other. I think that was what Gregoire was asking. Yes, it's quite different than Christianity in that regard.

Another major difference is that Judaism does not believe that everyone else in the world must become Jewish. I've read that they view the various nations of the world as parts of the body -- each is necessary for the proper functioning of the world. Which is why they don't consider being Jewish a prerequisite for righteousness.

-Bri

[DingoBingo]

Jews are the chosen people of widespread hate, that's for certain.

[Dumbledore]

Orthodox Jews not only allow questioning the religion, but encourage it. If you read the Talmud (explanations and discussions of the Old Testament by a number of old rabbis), you'll see that the old rabbis of the Talmud constantly disagreed with each other. I think that was what Gregoire was asking. Yes, it's quite different than Christianity in that regard.

Another major difference is that Judaism does not believe that everyone else in the world must become Jewish. I've read that they view the various nations of the world as parts of the body -- each is necessary for the proper functioning of the world. Which is why they don't consider being Jewish a prerequisite for righteousness.

-Bri

Thanks for that post of info about conservative Jews, my main point though is not to paint conservative Jews as bad or as religously un-dynamic, but to point out that they are not as socially progressive as the rest of the Jewish community, hence their nonacceptance of gays, and little change on other modern social issues.;)

[Loss Leader]

Thanks for that post of info about conservative Jews, my main point though is not to paint conservative Jews as bad or as religously un-dynamic, but to point out that they are not as socially progressive as the rest of the Jewish community, hence their nonacceptance of gays, and little change on other modern social issues.;)


Um ... none of what you just said is true. Conservative Jews, of which I am one, make up about a third of Jews in the US. My synagogue has been affiliated with the Raminical Assembly for my entire life. I was an active member of USY throughout my youth. Both my mother and father are past presidents of the temple. Hell, my grandmother is a past president of her conservative temple.

I would have a hard time finding a more socially progressive group. We are entirely open and accepting of homosexuals, we are egalitarian in every respect, we support a woman's right to make decisions about her body, we look the other way on the tattoo issue and, in general, we accept anyone who wants to worship no matter if they drove to temple, enjoy pork roasts, are married to a Lutheran or whatever.

If you have any evidence for your statement, I would gladly review it.

[Bri]

I think there may be a misunderstanding between the terms "Conservative (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservative_Judaism)" (uppercase) and "conservative" (lowercase) Judaism. Conservative Judaism is the name of a Jewish movement (which is actually fairly liberal compared to various Orthodox Jewish groups), whereas I think previous posts have used the term "conservative" (as opposed to "liberal") to refer to various groups of Orthodox Jews. For example, the Conservative movement is quite progressive towards gay issues, whereas the Orthodox Jews perhaps not so much.

-Bri

[Meadmaker]

But I also do know, that within Judaism, we do provide for a non-Jewish way of being in God's favor. Its called the "Noachide" laws, which is basically the laws of all the children of Noah. It includes abolition of idol worship and other things, but non-Jews are not required to obey kosher laws and follow Jewish rituals inorder for God to like them.

However, even gentiles are forbidden from eating a limb of an animal that is still alive.

[osmosis]

I'm with Senator Bulworth on all cultural/racial issues: Everyone should **** everyone else until we're all the same color.

[a_unique_person]

However, even gentiles are forbidden from eating a limb of an animal that is still alive.

Does that mean Ozzie is doomed?

[SomeGuy]

It is a central conceit of every religion that it has the one, true insight into god. The Pope recently re-iterated that view for the Catholic Church. Judaism seems to have it's own way of making that claim, but it seems to be unique in that it has come from a much older time in human history. For the Jews, to identify one, all powerful god was a step forward in human thinking, from the polytheism of other religions of the time. However, this one god was also only interested in one race. Xianity took the next logical step from there to see the one god as being interested in all races.

It is a step forward, only one deity away from getting it right.

[a_unique_person]

History is a progression of ideas. The stumbling block at the moment is what do we replace god with, IMHO. gods were invented for a reason, people needed reassurance that their frailty and inevitable death did not make life meaningless. I think we have only just started to address that issue without the crutch of a god.

[SomeGuy]

History is a progression of ideas. The stumbling block at the moment is what do we replace god with, IMHO. gods were invented for a reason, people needed reassurance that their frailty and inevitable death did not make life meaningless. I think we have only just started to address that issue without the crutch of a god.

In say we replace god with the phrase:

"Grow UP!"

[Loss Leader]

I think there may be a misunderstanding between the terms "Conservative (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservative_Judaism)" (uppercase) and "conservative" (lowercase) Judaism. Conservative Judaism is the name of a Jewish movement (which is actually fairly liberal compared to various Orthodox Jewish groups), whereas I think previous posts have used the term "conservative" (as opposed to "liberal") to refer to various groups of Orthodox Jews.


Well, okay then if that's the case.

[Meadmaker]

Does that mean Ozzie is doomed?

Didn't he eat the head? I think that would be ok. However, if he ate the wings, that would be a one way ticket to Hell, except that most Jews don't teach that there is a Hell.

[Dumbledore]

Um ... none of what you just said is true. Conservative Jews, of which I am one, make up about a third of Jews in the US. My synagogue has been affiliated with the Raminical Assembly for my entire life. I was an active member of USY throughout my youth. Both my mother and father are past presidents of the temple. Hell, my grandmother is a past president of her conservative temple.

I would have a hard time finding a more socially progressive group. We are entirely open and accepting of homosexuals, we are egalitarian in every respect, we support a woman's right to make decisions about her body, we look the other way on the tattoo issue and, in general, we accept anyone who wants to worship no matter if they drove to temple, enjoy pork roasts, are married to a Lutheran or whatever.

If you have any evidence for your statement, I would gladly review it.

I stand corrected, sorry for the mistake. From what I learned their are Jews who are conservative in nature and are not socially progressive, though I must have he wrong label for these Jewish people! Thanks for the correction, no insult intended. See you can learn something everyday. :D

[brodski]

On a weekday :eye-poppi?

He's a student, it's in the job description...

[Loss Leader]

I stand corrected, sorry for the mistake. From what I learned their are Jews who are conservative in nature and are not socially progressive, though I must have he wrong label for these Jewish people! Thanks for the correction, no insult intended. See you can learn something everyday. :D


Yeah, I guess you'd be talking about the Orthodox but not even all of them. The so-called Modern Orthodox are pretty permissive on social issues like homosexuality. They hold themselves to a pretty strict set of behaviors but are able to pass pretty well in the wider world. They can be found in big cities like New York where the fact that they won't ride on Shabbat is less of an inconvenience.

And the Hassidim are a whole world unto themselves.

[Civilized Worm]

So what exactly is your point besides slandering Jews every where.


Oh for goodness sake, where did I slander jews? I was quoting Exodus, not the Protocols!


Yes there is extreme violence in our old religious texts, do you see modern Jews practicing this?


Last time I checked many were still mutilating their childrens' genitals.


No one follows these examples, our religion has to do with a cultural understanding and modern interpretation, just like other religions. So again are you making some larger point, like only Jews attacked people in the ancient past, or are you just trying to paint an inaccurate picture of modern Judaism?


No, what I'm trying to do is to show how modern judaism is at odds with it's own scripture.


Well Jews feel that they have a convent with God that grows and changes according to the times and culture that they live in. Hence what goes in ancient times does not work now.


So you're saying that, say, stoning someone to death for gathering sticks on the sabbath was right then but wrong now? How do you know how god wants you to behave now? Has he given you some updates on what you can and can't do that I'm not aware of?

[Dumbledore]

Oh for goodness sake, where did I slander jews? I was quoting Exodus, not the Protocols.

Last time I checked many were still mutilating their childrens' genitals.

No, what I'm trying to do is to show how modern judaism is at odds with it's own scripture.

So you're saying that, say, stoning someone to death for gathering sticks on the sabbath was right then but wrong now? How do you know how god wants you to behave now? Has he given you some updates on what you can and can't do that I'm not aware of?

You slandered Jews by presenting religious material as if modern Jews follow such material and are inherently violent and dangerous because of their beliefs.

Are you talking about circumcision? This is how you view circumcision, you are in a very small minority who view circumcision this way. Furthermore just because you view circumcision this way does not make it mutilation.

Modern Judaism is not at odds with their own scripture, read my original post if you don't agree, if not convinced find a Rabbi and ask him or her.

I have a feeling if you really did understand modern Judaism you would not be asking these questions, I have explained to you how this could be. But if you want an expert seek a Rabbi, maybe several, they will have different answers. You are showing your own ignorance by asking such questions not any inherent fault with Judaism.

[osmosis]

Ok here's a question about modern Judaism. Approx what % of Jews still adhere to the practice of eating "koshered" meat?

[GT/CS]

If you want to get a true picture of certain religions contact a large religious cemetery in a major city and tell the counselor you want to buy a space for you and your spouse. See what kind of questions they ask. You will then understand how it's them vs. everyone else.

[Dumbledore]

Ok here's a question about modern Judaism. Approx what % of Jews still adhere to the practice of eating "koshered" meat?

Not sure, your best bet would to do some investigations on the web, that info should be around somewhere!;)

[Meadmaker]

Ok here's a question about modern Judaism. Approx what % of Jews still adhere to the practice of eating "koshered" meat?

I can't answer in percentages, partly because you would have to first figure out exactly who is a Jew, which can be problematic.

In my experience, almost all of the Orthodox eat exclusively, or nearly exclusively, kosher meat.

Reform Jews almost never worry about it, but the grandparents among them almost always buy their meat for holiday dinners at a kosher butcher. I don't know why, really, but I think it helps them feel "more Jewish".

Conservatives have really mixed attitudes. As best I can tell, they almost always have a preference for it, but are rarely exclusive. I know one friend of mine who says, "We have a kosher house, but not kosher bodies." What that means is that they keep kosher at home, including buying only kashered meat, but don't worry about it when out at restaurants or in other people's homes. I think that's a fairly common attitude.

[Civilized Worm]

You slandered Jews by presenting religious material as if modern Jews follow such material and are inherently violent and dangerous because of their beliefs.


Did I bollocks. I presented the material to show that it contradicted what Loss Leader was saying. Don't blame me if you don't like what it says.


Are you talking about circumcision? This is how you view circumcision, you are in a very small minority who view circumcision this way. Furthermore just because you view circumcision this way does not make it mutilation.


How can you describe it as anything other than genital mutilation? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genital_mutilation And of babies no less!


I have a feeling if you really did understand modern Judaism you would not be asking these questions, I have explained to you how this could be.


That is usually why people ask questions.


But if you want an expert seek a Rabbi, maybe several, they will have different answers. You are showing your own ignorance by asking such questions not any inherent fault with Judaism.


Why should I ask rabbis if you admit that even they can't agree on what it is that they believe?

[Dumbledore]

Did I bollocks. I presented the material to show that it contradicted what Loss Leader was saying. Don't blame me if you don't like what it says.





How can you describe it as anything other than genital mutilation? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genital_mutilation And of babies no less!





That is usually why people ask questions.





Why should I ask rabbis if you admit that even they can't agree on what it is that they believe?

Well besides ignoring the vast majority of what I posted, I can answer the only rational response, read here not insulting and/or actually addressing the issue at hand, you did have to my post. You should ask a Rabbi these questions, because they are experts in the matters you are asking about. Not all Rabbis agree, they have different opinions on these matters, just as experts in other fields will have different opinions than each other, though they are all still experts. I really don't know how to make this much clearer than I have here!!! You will either actually read and bother to comprehend my post, or you will continue your rant. Either way I am done!:)

[Civilized Worm]

Well besides ignoring the vast majority of what I posted


I didn't ignore anything.


You should ask a Rabbi these questions, because they are experts in the matters you are asking about.


I think you're the one that needs to talk to a rabbi if you have such great difficulty describing your faith to an unbeliever.


Not all Rabbis agree, they have different opinions on these matters, just as experts in other fields will have different opinions than each other, though they are all still experts. I really don't know how to make this much clearer than I have here!!! You will either actually read and bother to comprehend my post, or you will continue your rant. Either way I am done!:)


How different? Because you guys don't seem to agree on anything.(other than mutilating babies' genitals)

[Bri]

How different? Because you guys don't seem to agree on anything.

Individual Jews, I imagine, agree on many things and disagree on many other things. Much like any other group of people I can think of (including atheists).

-Bri

[Elind]

Why do the Jews get all the attention all the time?

They are hardly alone in considering themselves "chosen". Any number of Christians will say the same (the Jews just need to converted), but there is one faith that has this as THE fundamental of their faith, and that is the Mormons. No doubt that gives Mitt a lot of comfort and I can't wait to have another fundie as president (if anyone thinks mormons aren't fundie, learn about them, and if Mitt isn't really one, then he's a hypocrite.)

[Elind]

It is a step forward, only one deity away from getting it right.

Did you get permission to quote that?:D

[Gregoire]

Orthodox Jews not only allow questioning the religion, but encourage it. If you read the Talmud (explanations and discussions of the Old Testament by a number of old rabbis), you'll see that the old rabbis of the Talmud constantly disagreed with each other. I think that was what Gregoire was asking. Yes, it's quite different than Christianity in that regard.

Another major difference is that Judaism does not believe that everyone else in the world must become Jewish. I've read that they view the various nations of the world as parts of the body -- each is necessary for the proper functioning of the world. Which is why they don't consider being Jewish a prerequisite for righteousness.

-Bri


Yes, that is what I was asking. Although I was among Jews who were clearly not Orthodox, it did seem to me that using reason and logic was inherent to their religion and not just a manifestation of their liberal views about their religion (i. e. that one could date a nonjewish person).

[Elind]

I thought that Jesus preached that too, although perhaps from a different motivation. Was he not essentially preaching a messianic vision that the world would soon end (in the lifetime of those who knew him) and that they should follow the laws of non Christians who ruled, because it made no difference to the end result, soon to come?

[Dumbledore]

I didn't ignore anything.





I think you're the one that needs to talk to a rabbi if you have such great difficulty describing your faith to an unbeliever.





How different? Because you guys don't seem to agree on anything.(other than mutilating babies' genitals)

So the answer is no, you are not able to rationally discuss these issues. I choose to not explain any further about Judaism because it seems quite clear to me that you are not interested in having a rational discussion about it. Given your emotionally charged reactions and constant insults, I don't try to have conversations with such people.

[Loss Leader]

So the answer is no, you are not able to rationally discuss these issues. I choose to not explain any further about Judaism because it seems quite clear to me that you are not interested in having a rational discussion about it. Given your emotionally charged reactions and constant insults, I don't try to have conversations with such people.


Quite. There's answering questions and then there's handing ammunition to your firing squad.

[Dumbledore]

Quite. There's answering questions and then there's handing ammunition to your firing squad.

Yes I seem to be learning that lesson from a number of people at this time! You are quite right in that assessment.:D

[Elind]

Yes I seem to be learning that lesson from a number of people at this time! You are quite right in that assessment.:D

Good for you Grasshopper. You're picking this up faster than I thought.:cool:

[Dumbledore]

Good for you Grasshopper. You're picking this up faster than I thought.:cool:

Do you have to bother me here also, or is being obnoxious a specialty of yours! By the way the prestige of posting a lot in the forum is very impressive, and thanks for the insulting term of grasshopper! Would like me to refer to you as Great Insulting One, would you be more willing to share with me your infinite wisdom if I did so, I mean you have been posting for a long time after all!:rolleyes:

[Miss Anthrope]

Please, let's not let this thread, too, evolve into personal bickering!

[Elind]

Do you have to bother me here also, or is being obnoxious a specialty of yours! By the way the prestige of posting a lot in the forum is very impressive, and thanks for the insulting term of grasshopper! Would like me to refer to you as Great Insulting One, would you be more willing to share with me your infinite wisdom if I did so, I mean you have been posting for a long time after all!:rolleyes:

You are way too sensitive my friend. It seems impossible to have a strong opinion that contradicts yours without you feeling personally insulted. My last comment was actually a compliment that you got that point, from someone else. The term is not an insult.

However, as you wish. I won't bother with your posts in future, unless you reply to mine.:cool:

[Dumbledore]

You are way too sensitive my friend. It seems impossible to have a strong opinion that contradicts yours without you feeling personally insulted. My last comment was actually a compliment that you got that point, from someone else. The term is not an insult.

However, as you wish. I won't bother with your posts in future, unless you reply to mine.:cool:

Good!!!

[Darth Rotor]

Please, let's not let this thread, too, evolve into personal bickering!
My dear Miss Anthrope, the word you sought was "devolve" rather than "evolve."

Your humble servant (and by humble servant I mean annoying wordsmithing busybody)

Darth Rotor
Sith In Situ
Rat cheer

[Miss Anthrope]

My dear Miss Anthrope, the word you sought was "devolve" rather than "evolve."

Your humble servant (and by humble servant I mean annoying wordsmithing busybody)

Darth Rotor
Sith In Situ
Rat cheer

Correction humbly and graciously accepted.

[Dumbledore]

I think Elind in the future if you do respond in a insulting manner I will just ignore it. You should have the freedom to respond in any way you see fit. If I over reacted to you, I am sorry. I was dealing with several trolls at the same time, and sometimes it is hard to distinguish between a troll and wry humor. So please accept my humble apology if I over reacted. Dumbledore

[Elind]

No problem. Moving on.

Cheers

[osmosis]

did anyone else see that documentary about the "special" ghetto where the Jews with the most fame/talent were sent? one of them was a filmmaker who got duped into helping the nazi propoganda machine?

It was heartbreaking and chilling, and I wish I could remember the name of it. One of the better WWII documentaries.

[Dumbledore]

did anyone else see that documentary about the "special" ghetto where the Jews with the most fame/talent were sent? one of them was a filmmaker who got duped into helping the nazi propoganda machine?

It was heartbreaking and chilling, and I wish I could remember the name of it. One of the better WWII documentaries.

If you remember I would like to know the name!:)

[Popsickle]

did anyone else see that documentary about the "special" ghetto where the Jews with the most fame/talent were sent? one of them was a filmmaker who got duped into helping the nazi propoganda machine?

It was heartbreaking and chilling, and I wish I could remember the name of it. One of the better WWII documentaries.

Was it this one? //w w w .imdb.com/title/tt0348862/

[osmosis]

Was it this one? www.imdb.com/title/tt0348862/

YES! Thank you so much!

Prisoner of Paradise, that's the name. I highly recommend it for anyone who enjoys WWII documentaries.

[cnorman18]

Full disclosure: much of this post will be reedited from a rather longer post that I put up on the "Jesus and the Jews" thread this morning.

To begin, here's who I am (because it's relevant): I am a former Methodist minister, trained at Perkins School of Theology at Southern Methodist University in Dallas--a rather "liberal" seminary, and by no means a fundamentalist one. At age 50, I converted to Judaism (the Conservative, or Masorti, branch), and as I went through the process, which is rather long, my rabbi assigned readings that were rather more heavily weighted toward theology and documentary study than those for the average candidate for conversion. I don't claim to be an expert, but I am pretty well versed in both traditions.

First, then, on "chosenness". The Jews have never claimed to be superior to any other people in any way. On the contrary, according to the tradition (and the Bible), we were "chosen" because we were the smallest and weakest of all the tribes of the Earth (I'm not going to trouble myself with digging up chapter and verse for these assertions; if you doubt me, feel free, but it's in there).

Second, we were "chosen" for a job, not for special privileges--the task of bringing the idea of a single, incorporeal and invisible God, who cares about humans, their behavior toward one another, and right and wrong, to the rest of mankind. "Ethical Monotheism," in other words.

We are roundly criticized for making even that claim, as if a soldier being "chosen" out of his platoon to do a particularly difficult and dangerous job is receiving some kind of special privilege.

But, as it turns out, we did exactly what we were charged to do; and the idea of One God who expects moral behavior has spread over the entire Earth, though with variations--about which Jews make no judgments.

Jews do not, as a rule, claim to be competent to judge the truth or falsehood of any other religion (except insofar as it involves the literal worship of idols). We know, and claim to know, only how God has chosen to speak to US. If He has chosen to speak to a different people in a different way, through Jesus, Muhammad, Joseph Smith or a hovering UFO, that is no business of ours, and we do not have the right (or a reason) to pronounce that assertion true or false.

In truth, the concept of "chosenness" has been the cause of so much misunderstanding and resentment over the centuries that we don't speak of it much any more, except in debates like this one. It's more than a little embarrassing, and since it is so commonly misunderstood, it's hardly worth the trouble to define and defend it. I have tried anyway. If you don't understand that for us, it is both humbling and a burden, I have no more to say.

As to Heaven and Hell and who is "saved"--well, this is sometimes hard for others, especially Christians, to understand, but Jews, as a rule, don't spend a lot of time or energy speculating or even wondering about any of that. The point of our religion is one's behavior in THIS life. The next--if any--we leave to God. (It remains a matter for debate within the Jewish community whether or not there is an afterlife promised at all. Most Jews believe so, but few will say it is guaranteed; it is not mentioned in the Torah.)

We don't speak of "salvation"; there's no point to it. God is the only Judge, and we have no warrant to speculate on how He may judge anyone, not even ourselves. We believe the next life is
God's business, that both His justice and Gus mercy are perfect, and we are content to trust Him and leave it at that.

The idea that all Jews are guaranteed a place in Heaven is, well, let's just say "wildly inaccurate".

As for others, it is an ancient tenet of Judaism that "the righteous of all nations have a place in the Life to Come"--and only God gets to define "righteous", and decide who is and who is not. (This obviously comes from that strand of the tradition that believes in the Next Life to begin with.)

Another point worth considering is the peculiarity, to Jews, of the teaching that one is "saved" by *believing* certain things, or even by believing them in a certain *way*. That is puzzling to us. Who cares what you believe? What you DO is what matters. We've been arguing over the fine points of belief and "doctrine" for 3,500 years or so, but it's never occurred to us that what or how we believe makes a difference in how God will judge us at the end of our lives. That will be decided on the basis of how we treated others and how well we lived our lives, not by the proper conformation of our ideas to some arbitrary standard or other. Believe what you want, and fight it out with others who believe differently; you'll never come to a conclusion on such matters, and you're not meant to. But while you're arguing, see that you do not do to your neighbor that which is hateful to you. If there is an essential, that is it. All else is nitpicking detail.

"What you believe" is an interesting intellectual chess game, and we play it a lot; it's quite true that Jews love to argue, especially with other Jews about our shared religion. There is no Creed in Judaism, no prescribed set of required beliefs, and in all the branches but the ultra-Orthodox, what you choose to believe and how you choose to understand it is very much up to you. Judaism is remarkably free and pluralistic in that way.

What you DO, though, to us, is no chess game; it is more like a fist fight, with blood and bone and muscle on the line. There's a profound difference. I really, deeply, do not care what is your head, or in your heart for that matter; but what you DO, in relation to me and others, is very important indeed.

A few other matters: I am a little shocked, in a time on nonjudgmental multiculturalism, to see the ancient and honorable practice of circumcision derided as "genital mutilation". One might as well describe the Baptists' rite of immersion as "waterboarding". Circumcision does no harm (in fact, it seems to confer certain health benefits), and is considered a routine procedure that is, in most of America, still performed on ALL male infants. I was born a Methodist, and I was circumcised at birth. It is certainly no one's business to condemn this ancient and, to us, sacred rite as "barbaric". I thought we believed in refusing to judge the cultural practices of other peoples. Perhaps that does not apply here, but I have to wonder why not.

Jews do not, as a rule, take the Bible literally. As my rabbi often says, "The Torah is true, and some of it may even have happened." the question of evolution vs. creation is not a question for us. Science is science, and history is history, and the Bible purports to be neither. The Hebrew word "Adam" means "Mankind," if that helps. The opening chapters of Genesis are a poetic tale intended to impart lessons far more important than the origin of species.

And it is, after all, OUR book.

We are as uncomfortable with the idea of God's commanding the slaughter of whole towns as anyone here; it is a frequent topic of discussion during Torah study, and we have no satisfactory answers. "Midrash" is, among other things, the telling of quasi- or entirely fictional tales in an effort to explain or understand the "backstory" of events in the Bible, and there are very many such tales about these passages. Some are more plausible than others, and the effort to understand goes on. Suffice it to say that we do not even claim to know WHAT happened in every case, let alone WHY.

I will say this, though: It seems to me to be a breathtaking bit of arrogance for one to dictate to another what the standards and practices of his religion ought to be, then condemn him for not following them as one thinks he should.

The content and meaning of our faith, and the proper practice of our religion, is at once the communal and individual privilege and responsibility of the Jewish people, and of no one else. Until one is Jewish, one has no say in them. Period, full stop.

We do not comment on the truth or falsity of any other faith, nor do we presume to tell others the meaning of their holy books. We do not prescribe to others what the proper standards or practice of their faiths ought to be. There seem to be some, though, who feel that they have the right to make these judgments about us.

We seldom bother to argue the point, as I do here. More often, we merely exercise our reciprocal right to dismiss their opinions as being of no account, and to ignore them.

I hope I've cleared some things up. If anyone would like to DISCUSS these matters, I am at your service; but if you just want to argue, to tell me what I ought to do or believe, or just throw rocks at my people--well, thanks for playing, but I really have better things to do.

[Soapy Sam]

I wish them well of each other.

[xenBuddha]

people, people... if there's one thing we can all agree on, it's that I am, in fact, the chosen one, and all bow before me.

or maybe Neo is the chosen one. i forget.

[Malachi151]

The Jews are Yahweh's chosen people for the same reason that the Greeks were Zeus' chosen people....

[Cactus Wren]

Ariel Sharon once said that Israel has the right to judge other nations..but no nations have the right to judge Israel.
Source please.....

Regards,
Yair

Wikiquote (http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Ariel_Sharon) has a rather different phrasing: "Israel may have the right to put others on trial, but certainly no one has the right to put the Jewish people and the State of Israel on trial". Which sounds to me as though he meant that Israel has the right to put individuals on trial, but no individual or group has the right to put "the Jewish people" as a people, or Israel as a nation, on trial. Rather different from what yairhol didn't-quite-quote and didn't at all source.