ENDEAVOR shuttle may be stranded in space

[webfusion]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070811/ap_on_sc/space_shuttle

NASA is reporting that the STS-118 crew may be forced to remain in the International Space Station, and be unable to return to Earth in their Endeavour craft.

A section of heat-tile on the underbelly has been damaged, and may not be repairable at this time, which would mean that the astronauts are marooned aboard the orbiting Space Station (until October, when a 'rescue mission' could be launched).

[Corsair 115]

It's a little early to be saying that. A closer inspection using the laser system mounted on the end of the robotic arm is planned for Sunday. That will better determine the extent of the problem. Additional sites for reports:

Here's (http://www.space.com/missionlaunches/070810_sts118_tileupdate.html) a report from the Space.com web site.

Here's (http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20070810/shuttle_endeavour_070810/20070810?hub=TopStories) a CTV online report about the story.

[shemp]

You know, when I read about stuff like this happening, I have to laugh at the clods who think that UFOs from other planets infest our skies and that they come here just to anal probe us or make crop circles or butcher a few cows.

We can't even put a spaceship into orbit without it being damaged by a freaking piece of foam or a chunk of ice??? Yet there are millions of people who believe that spaceships travel thousands of light-years at lightspeed (or faster!) just to freaking ANAL PROBE THEM!!!???

Captain Kirk would never let a piece of ice stop him from doing the Horizontal Bop with every alien woman in the galaxy! Warp 10, Scotty!

[Corsair 115]

You know, when I read about stuff like this happening, I have to laugh at the clods who think that UFOs from other planets infest our skies and that they come here just to anal probe us or make crop circles or butcher a few cows.How about performing anal probes on cows before butchering them to make crop circles?

[shemp]

How about performing anal probes on cows before butchering them to make crop circles?

That's my shtick.

[Lemastre]

. . . . We can't even put a spaceship into orbit without it being damaged by a freaking piece of foam or a chunk of ice??? Yet there are millions of people who believe that spaceships travel thousands of light-years at lightspeed (or faster!) just to freaking ANAL PROBE THEM!!!???

Captain Kirk would never let a piece of ice stop him from doing the Horizontal Bop with every alien woman in the galaxy! Warp 10, Scotty!
Travelers from other galaxies don't need to spend any time in space vehicles. They warp time and space so that reaching the earth or any other part of the universe is like stepping from one room into another. The problem is with fine-tuning where this process places the traveler. It's easy enough to dial in earth, but what some earthlings experience as probing may be just an unfortunate landing site for an intergalactic tourist.

[WildCat]

Yet there are millions of people who believe that spaceships travel thousands of light-years at lightspeed (or faster!) just to freaking ANAL PROBE THEM!!!???
This is a reasonable fear for those of us who have perfectly sculpted derrieres. YMMV :p

[UnrepentantSinner]

Why does the verbiage of the OP have a "Shuttle locked in death struggle" Airplane II vibe to it?

[Jimbo07]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070811/ap_on_sc/space_shuttle

NASA is reporting that the STS-118 crew may be forced to remain in the International Space Station, and be unable to return to Earth in their Endeavour craft.

A section of heat-tile on the underbelly has been damaged, and may not be repairable at this time, which would mean that the astronauts are marooned aboard the orbiting Space Station (until October, when a 'rescue mission' could be launched).

My money is on the side that this option will NOT happen... way to pluck two lines out of the story! :D

[Reclaimer]

Why does the verbiage of the OP have a "Shuttle locked in death struggle" Airplane II vibe to it?

Where am I gonna find a piece of metal, here, in space, at this hour?


Ted Striker:
They're launching the XR-2300! You know what that is doctor?
Dr. Stone:
The muffler bracket for the '79 Pinto?
Ted Striker:
No, that's the XR-2200. The 2300 is the lunar shuttle.

Ahh... good times.
I wonder if they'll have to engage the blow up autopilot?

[Katana]

Why can't they just reconfigure the deflector shields?

[UnrepentantSinner]

Why can't they just reconfigure the deflector shields?

NASA already had a solution - nanobots that would climb out over the shuttle, form a protective matrix during re-entry and then fall away as they were incinerated.

Unfortunately some fundy Bush appointee demanted they be programmed with Free Will and they'll refuse any suicide missions.

[Katana]

NASA already had a solution - nanobots that would climb out over the shuttle, form a protective matrix during re-entry and then fall away as they were incinerated.

Unfortunately some fundy Bush appointee demanted they be programmed with Free Will and they'll refuse any suicide missions.


Where's Scotty when you need him?

[Big Les]

Where's Scotty when you need him?

At a museum (http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=1221112007) near you. Well, me.

[Tsukasa Buddha]

You say "stranded" as though it is a bad thing...

[hgc]

Travelers from other galaxies don't need to spend any time in space vehicles. They warp time and space so that reaching the earth or any other part of the universe is like stepping from one room into another. The problem is with fine-tuning where this process places the traveler. It's easy enough to dial in earth, but what some earthlings experience as probing may be just an unfortunate landing site for an intergalactic tourist.


That's why you need these guys. And they don't work cheap.

[RecoveringYuppy]

Cheap at twice the spice.

[Darth Rotor]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070811/ap_on_sc/space_shuttle

NASA is reporting that the STS-118 crew may be forced to remain in the International Space Station, and be unable to return to Earth in their Endeavour craft.

A section of heat-tile on the underbelly has been damaged, and may not be repairable at this time, which would mean that the astronauts are marooned aboard the orbiting Space Station (until October, when a 'rescue mission' could be launched).
From the article:
If NASA determines the gouge in the shuttle's belly — or any other damage to the heat shield — needs to be repaired, the work probably would be done in a fourth spacewalk next Friday or so. The astronauts have a repair kit on board with three types of patching material; the kit has flown on every mission since the 2003 Columbia disaster.
So, they are on a bike, have a bike tire repair kit, but can't drive the bike home after getting a flat.

I guess not, I guess web is playing yellow journalist. Not well played.

DR

[Katana]

From the article:

So, they are on a bike, have a bike tire repair kit, but can't drive the bike home after getting a flat.

I guess not, I guess web is playing yellow journalist. Not well played.

DR


Not sure I'm following you there, DR.

Could you clarify your second statement?

[ConspiRaider]

It could be a ruse. The astronauts might just be saying the tiles are damaged, just to get the extra layover at the ISS and test out, finally, a certain unmentionable activity in a weightless environment. And away from NASA's prying and voyeuristic eyes.

In space, no one can hear you scream.

[Darth Rotor]

In space, no one can hear you scream.
Uh, in space, no one can hear you scream "OhGodOhGodDoMeDoMeDoMeHarderHarderOOOOOOHHHHHHBAAA AAAAAABY!!!"

For Katana:

I was being sarcastic. There is a tire repair kit, they can get home, the OP was sensationalizing and misrepresenting the story. Yellow journalism.

DR

[Katana]

Uh, in space, no one can hear you scream "OhGodOhGodDoMeDoMeDoMeHarderHarderOOOOOOHHHHHHBAAA AAAAAABY!!!"

For Katana:

I was being sarcastic. There is a tire repair kit, they can get home, the OP was sensationalizing and misrepresenting the story. Yellow journalism.

DR

Sorry. Sometimes I can be a bit obtuse (but just keep that between us ;)). Thanks.

[Darth Rotor]

(but just keep that between us ;)). Thanks.
Oops, too late. Now we are both exposed! :jaw-dropp

DR

[Katana]

Oops, too late. Now we are both exposed! :jaw-dropp

DR


Damn.

I'm outta here.

:scarper:










:D

[webfusion]

For Katana:
I was being sarcastic. There is a tire repair kit, they can get home, the OP was sensationalizing and misrepresenting the story. Yellow journalism.


Excuse me?

The article quoted clearly states that they'll attempt to fix it, although it is totally possible that the damage is too extensive and the astronauts will be forced to remain in space until October.

You estimation that "they can get home" on the Endeavour is pure speculation, and has no basis in fact. My statements in the OP that the repair may not be successful, and force the crew of astronauts to remain in space until October, is completely, 100%, factual and realistic.

The cause of the re-entry breakup that killed seven astronauts in the Columbia disaster was traced to an undiscovered hole in the armoring of the left wing caused by a blow from breakaway foam fuel tank insulation during liftoff.

As far as NASA is concerned, the mission is paramount, and they want to minimize attention being focused on this problem of the shielding being compromised. So, their news releases are "rosy-posey" and "all is fine" ---
But, I guarantee you, this is gonna make front pages, should Dave Williams fail to fill the hole with "goop" (or whatever else they have in mind).
http://www.cjad.com/news/14/569135

[Gurdur]

If necessary, they will send up a second shuttle to bring the astronauts home, and there is no problem with the astronauts staying on the ISS till picked up by that second shuttle. This is what NASA are themselves saying.

Like DR said, non-story, to the extent of the way in which it was portrayed.

[webfusion]

If necessary, they will send up a second shuttle to bring the astronauts home, and there is no problem with the astronauts staying on the ISS till picked up by that second shuttle. This is what NASA are themselves saying.

Like DR said, non-story, to the extent of the way in which it was portrayed.

How was it portrayed, Gurdur?

1. Endeavour has apparent damage...
2. Endeavour may not be fixable...
3. Endeavour would be unable to return...
4. Endeavour's crew could be marooned in space...
5. Endeavour's crew may need to be rescued in several months.


All that seems correct. What am I missing?

[fuelair]

That's my shtick.
But won't someone think of the goats!!!?:eek:

[fuelair]

That's why you need these guys. And they don't work cheap.
But they taste good baked in Allspice!!

[webfusion]

I guess web is playing yellow journalist. Not well played.

I'm still a bit steamed at this comment, DR. It was a cheap shot, and I wouldn't mind having you apologize.

The Associated Press, a few hours ago, has issued a new updated story, with the lead:

Top Headline

Shuttle Mission Overshadowed by Gash
AP - Sat, 11 Aug 2007 19:42:58 -0400 (EDT)
By MARCIA DUNN

A routine shuttle mission, highlighted by a teacher's first spaceflight and space station construction, is now overshadowed by a potentially serious gash in Endeavour's thermal shield.

I know that tomorrow (Sunday), the extent of the problem will be further investigated, and it's been reported that next Friday (August 17) Astronaut Dave Williams may be assigned to the task of going out on a special EVA to attempt a repair.



The Associated Press reporter Marcia Dunn is not sensationalizing it.
At no point have I sensationalized any of this.
To be accused of practicing "yellow journalism" here is something I object strongly to, especially.

[UnrepentantSinner]

Shuttle Mission Overshadowed by Gash

Wait! Was there some breaking news about Lisa Nowak that I missed?

[Darth Rotor]

I'm still a bit steamed at this comment, DR. It was a cheap shot, and I wouldn't mind having you apologize.

The Associated Press, a few hours ago, has issued a new updated story, with the lead:

Top Headline

Shuttle Mission Overshadowed by Gash
AP - Sat, 11 Aug 2007 19:42:58 -0400 (EDT)
By MARCIA DUNN

A routine shuttle mission, highlighted by a teacher's first spaceflight and space station construction, is now overshadowed by a potentially serious gash in Endeavour's thermal shield.

I know that tomorrow (Sunday), the extent of the problem will be further investigated, and it's been reported that next Friday (August 17) Astronaut Dave Williams may be assigned to the task of going out on a special EVA to attempt a repair.



The Associated Press reporter Marcia Dunn is not sensationalizing it.
At no point have I sensationalized any of this.
To be accused of practicing "yellow journalism" here is something I object strongly to, especially.
Steam away. Given the article you linked, and the fact that I read the whole thing, and the observation of there being a repair kit and that they had a plan for a repair, your cherry picking is no better than sensationalized crap.

Now, if they attempt a repair, and the repair is deemed insufficient for re-entry, then there is an issue. But that isn't the story, is it?

No apology offered, since I have little respect for chicken little, sensationalistic garbage. Your OP was one such based on the very article you linked to in the OP.

DR

[tripi]

NASA already had a solution - nanobots that would climb out over the shuttle, form a protective matrix during re-entry and then fall away as they were incinerated.

Unfortunately some fundy Bush appointee demanted they be programmed with Free Will and they'll refuse any suicide missions.


Are you condoning the murder of hundreds of thousands of nanobots?

[Katana]

If I can wade back into this, I would first say that my appreciation above for DR's explanation should not be taken as agreement with his position. I appreciated the clarification.

On webfusion's behalf, I think that the label "yellow journalism" may be a bit harsh.

However, I think that the issue that folks are taking with how the story was portrayed in the OP is because it was only in the last sentence of the article that October was mentioned.

In an emergency, Shannon said, Endeavour could remain at the space station for at least two months and a rescue shuttle could be launched as early as October.

After reading up to that point, I didn't pick up on there being cause for concern that they wouldn't be able to return or fix the damage.

The sentences leading up to the last one were: "NASA hopes to keep Endeavour at the space station for at least seven days and quite possibly a record 10 days. The shuttle is equipped with a new system for drawing power from the station, and mission managers are expected to approve the extra docked days on Sunday."

So I think that the only point made in by the final sentence of the article was was that, even though 10 days would be a record and managers would like approve that duration, they COULD stay for at least two months (i.e. far less time than they will be there even though it will be a record amount of time).

It sounds like a separate point from the issue surrounding the damage.

I understand why you read it as you did, webfusion, so, as I said, I think that "over-sensationalizing" or "yellow journalism" is harsh.

[Darth Rotor]

If I can wade back into this, I would first say that my appreciation above for DR's explanation should not be taken as agreement with his position. I appreciated the clarification.

On webfusion's behalf, I think that the label "yellow journalism" may be a bit harsh.
Thanks for your opinion. A malfunction is not an emergency. Out of the article's content, the choice web made was to focus on a dire emergency, when the contents of the report do not indicate that being the problem, merely a worst case possibility. Chicken little speaks.

After reading up to that point, I didn't pick up on there being cause for concern that they wouldn't be able to return or fix the damage.
Yes, but the headline writer here on the forum, Webfusion, wrote his headline with that point lead most.
I understand why you read it as you did, webfusion, so, as I said, I think that "over-sensationalizing" or "yellow journalism" is harsh.
A pet peeve of mine, on this forum, is the tendency to use a yellow journalist's style for choosing topic headlines, or thread titles, or points of emphasis in an intellectually dishonest manner. It is bad enough that the news organs do it, why would a skeptics be so intellectually dishonest?

I have given Mehpisto a number of pokes in the eye for doing the very same thing, and feel it fair to call Webfusion on his use of that contemptible tactic when he does it.

DR

[RecoveringYuppy]

Given that NASA has underestimated these events in the past, putting the focus on that one topic certainly isn't unwarranted, let alone dishonest or contemptible.

[Katana]

Thanks for your opinion.

You're welcome. Thanks for yours. :D

A malfunction is not an emergency. Out of the article's content, the choice web made was to focus on a dire emergency, when the contents of the report do not indicate that being the problem, merely a worst case possibility. Chicken little speaks.


Yes, but the headline writer here on the forum, Webfusion, wrote his headline with that point lead most.

A pet peeve of mine, on this forum, is the tendency to use a yellow journalist's style for choosing topic headlines, or thread titles, or points of emphasis in an intellectually dishonest manner. It is bad enough that the news organs do it, why would a skeptics be so intellectually dishonest?

I have given Mehpisto a number of pokes in the eye for doing the very same thing, and feel it fair to call Webfusion on his use of that contemptible tactic when he does it.

DR


The pet peeve I understand.

[Darth Rotor]

Given that NASA has underestimated these events in the past, putting the focus on that one topic certainly isn't unwarranted, let alone dishonest or contemptible.
I note your mistrust of NASA, but do not find that in any way an excuse for misrepresentation of the risks As Reported in the associated link to the OP. Space travel is inherently dangerous, as all participants in it are fully aware. Any mission can end in death, with even most of everything going right. It takes very little going wrong to die. That is a given, not a reason to make a big to do over a malfunction that is not an emergency.

I believe you and I will disagree on the rest, due to taste and possibly viewpoint, and am content to leave it at that.


DR

[webfusion]

This just in:

"NASA scientists say damage to the outside of the shuttle Endeavour appears to be a minor problem and probably won't need repairing."


Nevermind...

:whistling

[Katana]

This just in:

"NASA scientists say damage to the outside of the shuttle Endeavour appears to be a minor problem and probably won't need repairing."


Nevermind...

:whistling


:D

[Darth Rotor]

This just in:

"NASA scientists say damage to the outside of the shuttle Endeavour appears to be a minor problem and probably won't need repairing."


Nevermind...

:whistling
*Busy neverminding*

DR

[UnrepentantSinner]

Are you condoning the murder of hundreds of thousands of nanobots?

It's not murder. Said administrator demanded they be programmed with knowledge of the Gospels so they would sacrifice themselves and go to heaven. I guess he didn't realize the ramifications of the Free Will heuristic programming though.

[a_unique_person]

http://www.theage.com.au/news/world/nasa-weighs-urgent-spacewalk-repairs/2007/08/13/1186857393015.html



NASA was urgently calculating whether risky spacewalk repairs are needed after a close-up inspection revealed that a nine-centimetre gouge penetrates the thermal shielding on the shuttle's belly.
A chunk of insulating foam hit the Endeavour at liftoff last week in an unlucky ricochet off the fuel tank.
The unevenly shaped gouge - which straddles two side-by-side thermal tiles and the corner of a third nine cm and just over five cm wide. An inspection today shows the damage goes all the way through the 2.5-centimetre thick tiles, exposing the felt material sandwiched between the tiles and the shuttle's aluminium frame.
Mission managers expect to decide tomorrow or on Tuesday US time at the latest, whether to send astronauts out to patch the gouge. Engineers are trying to determine whether the marred area can withstand the searing heat of atmospheric re-entry at flight's end. Actual heating tests will be conducted on similarly damaged samples.
"We have really prepared for exactly this case, since Columbia," said John Shannon, chairman of the mission management team.





It looks like it has to be repaired, but they say they are prepared for such a task. If it hadn't happened to Columbia, it looks like it would have happened to Endevour.

[Jimbo07]

This problem apparently existed previously and it was only 'luck' (:boxedin: ) that kept it from happening before Columbia. That they even know about it this time (before reentry, obviously) is a step up. Once the repair decision is made, focus on the mission can resume...

If it's successfully repaired, it will actually make good press for NASA... for once...

;)

[frank462]

You may thank the environ-Nazis for the Columbia disaster and the current problems.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Shuttle_external_tank

Development of the ETs thermal protection system has been problematic, and has proven a fatal weakness to shuttle mission safety. NASA has had difficulty preventing fragments of foam from detaching during flight, ever since a 1995 decision to remove chlorofluorocarbon-11 (CFC-14) from the composition of the foam in compliance with an Environmental Protection Agency ban on CFCs under section 610 of the Clean Air Act. In its place, a hydrochlorofluorocarbon known as HCFC 141b was certified for use and phased into the shuttle program. The "new" foam containing HCFC 141b was first used on the aft dome portion of ET-82 during the flight of STS-79 in 1996. Use of HCFC 141b was expanded to the ETs acreage, or larger portions of the tank, starting with ET-88, which flew on STS-86 in 1997.

[richardm]

I know that environmentalist-bashing is a popular sport, and that any attempt to protect the enviroment is fascism in action. However, the assertion made by Wikipedia and others that the foam has only been problematic since 1995 is contradicted by this article: (http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn3350)


In 1992, Columbia was struck in an almost identical incident to that revealed in images from its ill-fated final launch on 16 January. A piece of foam insulation fell from the external fuel tank and hit the underside of the shuttle, gouging a 12-centimetre-long hole in the heat tiles.


Emphasis mine. The foam has always been a problem. Furthermore, if NASA weren't sure that the new foam was up to the job they could have applied for an exemption, of which there are already several. (http://www.epa.gov/Ozone/title6/noness/610summ.html#exempt)

The final nail in the coffin for this argument must be that the shuttle still uses freon in cooling systems (http://spaceflight.nasa.gov/shuttle/reference/shutref/orbiter/eclss/overview.html) without apparently falling foul of the act.


Interestingly, that New Scientist article continues:

Columbia was damaged again during a 1997 mission. A NASA report from the time said: "Inspection revealed more than 300 hits to Columbia's exterior thermal protection system (TPS) tiles, with about 132 measuring greater than one inch long. Current estimations indicate about 100 TPS tiles may need replacement." Again, NASA concluded: "The damaged tiles posed no threat to flight crew safety."

In 1995, NASA had estimated that 90 per cent of the damage to tiles was being caused by pieces of the external fuel tank insulation flaking away.



Ten years ago, of course was before we got to see what damaged tiles could do. I doubt they'd dare try to return without repairing it - even a token effort, if they really thought there was no risk.

[a_unique_person]

You may thank the environ-Nazis for the Columbia disaster and the current problems.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Shuttle_external_tank

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=449&highlight=shuttle

Welcome back, Sir Knight.

[Checkmite]

Wow, someone directly above richardm just got owned.

[frank462]

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=449&highlight=shuttle

Welcome back, Sir Knight.

Sir Knight? Are you going to apply for the Million Dollars for being a psychotic psychic? You would lose because, as usual, you are wrong.

[a_unique_person]

Sir Knight? Are you going to apply for the Million Dollars for being a psychotic psychic? You would lose because, as usual, you are wrong.

Just a joke :p

[Piscivore]

Shouldn't those things be mothballed already? IIRC they are almost as old as my VW Bus. Couldn't we build a couple dozen shiny new Soyuz-y capsules for what we're spending keeping these dinosaurs going?

[richardm]

Definitely (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/6950728.stm) not something to worry about, say NASA. I guess they're probably right based on past experience. Hope they're right!

So this hole apparently goes right through the tile. How can this be safe? Is it just that the tile is over an unimportant piece of orbiter so if it burns through it doesn't matter? Or is the hole so small that it won't heat up the skin appreciably?

[sphenisc]

It could be a ruse. The astronauts might just be saying the tiles are damaged, just to get the extra layover at the ISS and test out, finally, a certain unmentionable activity in a weightless environment. And away from NASA's prying and voyeuristic eyes.

In space, no one can hear you scream.

Why don't they say "We ran out of gas.", like the rest of us?

[Jimbo07]

So this hole apparently goes right through the tile. How can this be safe? Is it just that the tile is over an unimportant piece of orbiter so if it burns through it doesn't matter? Or is the hole so small that it won't heat up the skin appreciably?

A few things... first, this gouge is not as large as the one on Columbia. Second, the temperature profile is not uniform across the surface on reentry (that is, it doesn't get as hot in that area as along the leading edges). Finally, there is some damage that will have to be repaired on the ground, but they must have decided that it's less risk to land the orbiter, than to send an astronaut around the far side.

[richardm]

they must have decided that it's less risk to land the orbiter, than to send an astronaut around the far side.

That's another job that falls into the "I'm glad I don't have to decide that" category.

[Jimbo07]

They're Baaaaccckkk...

Endeavour's Safe Return (http://www.space.com/missionlaunches/070821_sts118_landingday.html)

Next up, a trip in October to deliver a new pressurized component (Node) to the ISS.

For all of the fair criticisms of the ISS, I'm still amazed that humans have the ability/audacity to build a 500 ton spaceship in orbit!

:cool:

[Checkmite]

Shouldn't those things be mothballed already? IIRC they are almost as old as my VW Bus. Couldn't we build a couple dozen shiny new Soyuz-y capsules for what we're spending keeping these dinosaurs going?

Age does not mean obsolete, given proper maintenance. We're going to be running B-52 sorties on Mars some day.

[dudalb]

Age does not mean obsolete, given proper maintenance. We're going to be running B-52 sorties on Mars some day.


Hell, a lot of DC 3's/C-47s are still in everyday use.
I guess the old saying about the DC3 is true: You can wreck one,but you can't wear it out.......