Why would you want to believe in magic?

[Delusions_O_Grandeur]

This post has been long due from my side. I want to understand why I have a desire to believe in magic. This is my best shot at it.

Fear. It is the most important reason. Modern physics has evolved so far that it has produced a set of natural laws that, although incomplete, cannot be broken, or at least nobody has proven that they can in fact be broken. They must be abided by as a minimal condition for any physical process to be real. Biology and physics together have shown that life can arise without inteligent proceses, and does not have to be a significant part of reality as a whole.

Magic is the ability to transcend these rules. If human conciousness could do things that broke the laws of physics established so far, it would imply that the human conciousness is the most fundamental element of reality. Being the center of reality would open the door to the possibility that I'm eternal and can be in full control of my fate. That's why I would want magic to exist.

But for as far as science shows me, it is simply not so. I'm small, insignificant and mortal. How? Because invocations of magic have lost to science very often. From gods needed to create lightning all the way to gods needed to create life. God is disappearing into ever shrinking gaps of human ignorance and I can no longer bring myself to believe that this does not apply to the very existence of reality, as the process of retreat has been going on for so long already.

[Tressa]

I never thought of fear as a reason to believe in magic. Any more than I would think of fear as being a reason to believe in the power of prayer. Magic/spells is just prayer with props (simply put).

I'm an ex born again christian and an ex wiccan witch. I believed in the power of prayer and magic/spells as it made me feel more part of nature. I didn't see at as control any more than sending out a resume for a job is control.

I should say that I never felt that magic was supernatural but natural. I didn't believe in the "cgi" type of psychic ability and magic that most people equate with the term magic nowadays. I believed that magic was an ability closely linked to intuition (and to some degree, counseling) and that like all abilities or talents, some people will be better at it than others (no matter how much they work at it).

I remember seeing a Craft teacher talking about asking their students to move a vase from one side of the table to the other using only the power of their mind. The teacher would watch their student concentrate and get frustrated then the teacher would pick up the vase and move it to the other side of the table and say "stop thinking that magic is something impossible to do." (I am happy to say my first thought had been "the mind controls the body so pick up the vase and move it".)

There is a creative aspect of magic that I find a draw to. The writing of rituals and spells was very fulfilling to me. I enjoyed the research of finding the right type of items I needed, the music I wanted to use to evoke a certain feeling, etc.

Magic was one way to help keep me focused on a goal.

It was part of taking action in my life. If I were looking for a job I could check the help wanted ads, send out resumes, light a candle. Magic went hand in hand with the physical and mental work of living. Nothing out of the ordinary or supernatural.

[DangerousBeliefs]

Because I want to have power over you stupid muggles.

All you mug-bloods need to be put in your place.

Long live Lord Voldimort!

[JoeEllison]

The lame part about it? How very pedestrian most of that so-called "magic" is, compared to reality.

[Dancing David]

Um, pagan nihilist buddhist here, initiated back in 1982, know as a galloping sceptic and a 'black lighter'. Practiced shamanism, wicca and cermonial magick (non-sexual).

The reason to believe in magic is that it is a way of communicating with the irrational, emotive, intuitive side of the human brain.

However one should remember to follow the rules and provide adequate insulation between the mundane world and the 'magic' world. What you experience in the trance, 'the world between worlds' and in the 'spirit' is meant to be controlled through self discipline and control of one self. You are not to allow the 'pinnacle of creation' to be possessed by astral zombies, the spirits of the dead, imps, demons or divas. If you invoke a god form you are to be the one in control and you are to exit that state before you leave the circle. What happens in the circle stays in the circle.

You are communicating with yourself. If you allow that side of yourself to dominate your life than it will be ruined, if you see mystic portents in everyday events then you will end up delusional.

You would not use electricity in a haphazard and uncontrolled fashion, nor should you use magic that way.

Life is wonderful, it is amazing and a wonder that is the magic. We exist.

[streamlet]

I want to/believe in magic for two reasons that I can think of immediately.

First, because it's fun. Mid-spell I usually feel like I could shoot lightning out of my fingertips. In the other world, I have wings. Magic makes me feel powerful and light and free, like stripping off all the day-to-day nonsense. Real or not, the feelings and memories are very real.

:D all this without mind-altering chemicals!

Second-- I'm good at magic. I'm not good at anything real-world. Maybe a stronger person could survive a face-to-face with reality, but I'm not up to that.

But hey, if I have to live with an emotional crutch, at least it's a crutch that lets me meet dragons!

[Delusions_O_Grandeur]

By 'magic' I really meant all phenomena that defy physical explanation or outright break a law of physics. This would include steering the formation of icecrystals with the human mind (Emoto), homeopathy, aura healing and the like. Not just the wiccan kind of magic.

Right now, I'd say that things scientifically unexplained, like the form of the laws of physics, are better left unexplained. Using magic to rush to an explanation has been a disappointing experience in the past. This is about giving in to fear for the unknown and jumping to conclusions before you have the necesary data to do so. "Don't shoot your enemy before they're in firing range!"

The question for me has long been "Are any of these magical phenomena real?" I see that you implicitly pose another question. "When handled with care, does it really matter that magic is probably not real?"

[Nancarrow]

Taking 'magic' to mean, 'the ability of a human being to do amazing things to nature by simply commanding it to do them', I'd say it's obviously a desire for power over our own lives (and, for the less mature of us, over others' lives too).

At least, that's what I found so cool about magic when I was about eight or nine.

Of course, I was somewhat disappointed to find out, as I grew up, that there is no such thing as magic (in that sense, not of course the entertainment sense). But in school I discovered science. Science can promise us as much, or more, as magic does. But it goes one better: it delivers on that promise.

Science: Magic That Works! (TM) :)

[Delusions_O_Grandeur]

What good is power if in the end you will die and be forgotten? I think desire for power over my own life is not all of the story because of that. The existence of magic would mean that life itself is more fundamental than any of the laws of physics (or at least that making such an assumption is not toally rediculous), implying that our existence is limitless and you can live through every possible experience you ever want to. It's the fear of missing something before you die that plays a big part here.

[latent aaaack]

Magic is the ability to transcend these rules. If human conciousness could do things that broke the laws of physics established so far, it would imply that the human conciousness is the most fundamental element of reality. Being the center of reality would open the door to the possibility that I'm eternal and can be in full control of my fate. That's why I would want magic to exist.


What do you mean by 'most fundamental element of reality' and 'center of reality?' Why would the discovery of one previously paranormal ability make it likely that other abilities like immortality are real? I think you have it backwards when you say this:

Modern physics has evolved so far that it has produced a set of natural laws that, although incomplete, cannot be broken, or at least nobody has proven that they can in fact be broken. They must be abided by as a minimal condition for any physical process to be real.

Physics didn't produce that, it observed that and made no claims about the existence of supernatural phenomena. Early physicists like Newton believed in many supernatural phenomena. It's like saying science has a 'rule' that wooly mammoths don't exist anymore and become daytime tv soap actors. A non-backward version of the last sentence would be more like 'Real physical processes abide by laws which are derived from observation of them.'

[Dancing David]

What good is power if in the end you will die and be forgotten?

Power is a waste of time. Live, eat love, plant a garden have pets and a family. Live life while alive. Leave death to the dead.

I think desire for power over my own life is not all of the story because of that.

Unless you are in the grip of obsessive compulsive disorder you have the choice to make the choice. that is the power over your life. the seed you sow are the fruit they will bear.

The existence of magic would mean that life itself is more fundamental than any of the laws of physics (or at least that making such an assumption is not toally rediculous), implying that our existence is limitless and you can live through every possible experience you ever want to. It's the fear of missing something before you die that plays a big part here.


No magic implies that we are consious.

You are one with the universe.

You are partaking of fields and forces that travel at the speed of light across the universe.

Isn't that cool?

[Delusions_O_Grandeur]

I needed some chewing time for that.

You noted that I basically said that the laws of physics apply constraints to reality. It's true that instead of applying contraints the laws of physics merely summarize what we know about reality. Breaking any of the currently established laws of physics does not immediatly prove that everything you've dreamed up is suddenly real. But belief in magic seriously isn't an exact science or logical. If one thing that scientific experiment could never prove actually exists (channeling etc), or one law can be broken you sort of open the flood gate for my imagination since I can just say: "See? It's possible.. think of all the other things that may exist that have elluded science!" The way it stands now science has shown that almost any explanation for a complex phenomenon created by your imagination does not survive scientific experiment. Maybe I just want to see the scientific establishment fall face first into a puddle of mud and acknowledge that the intuitive mind can gain deep knowledge of the universe through intuition.

What do you mean by 'most fundamental element of reality' and 'center of reality?' Why would the discovery of one previously paranormal ability make it likely that other abilities like immortality are real?

By the center of reality I mean that the rules according to which reality behaves are influenced by the human mind. This would mean that the rules applied by the will of the human mind are the ultimate reality.

But in school I discovered science. Science can promise us as much, or more, as magic does. But it goes one better: it delivers on that promise. Science: Magic That Works! (TM) :)

It should be noted, that one of my few reasons to not want to believe in magic is that the current laws of nature are so amazingly simple, yet all the complexity of the cosmos and life can evolve within their framework without intervention of any sort of intelligence that is above these laws.

[Crossbow]

I would love to have a magic carpet!

It sure would save me alot of money that I use for flying, and it would be most popular at the Oshkosh Air Show.

:)

[Delusions_O_Grandeur]

Are the palace the harem and a 1001 nights included?

[Tressa]

I could use a 1001 all male hetro harem even without the palace and carpet (rug burns ouch).

Now, for me personally, my rituals are going places with my friends/family, my circle is being with my friends/family, the magic is created/comes from myself and them and the life and times we have.

[Fnord]

Why would you want to believe in magic?

Power. Over others.

"Any technology, no matter how simple, is magic to those who don't understand it." -- Florence Ambrose, in giving her interpretation of Clarke's Law, which states, "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

It was after I realized how truly bogus "magic" really is that I decided to get into Electrical Engineering. Now, with our nation's heavy dependence upon technology, I reign supreme as did the proverbial one-eyed man in the land of the blind.

Power. Over others. Especially the ignorant.

[fishbait]

What makes you think that if magic was real it would not be as common and ordinary as making a corned beef sandwich? If imagic was a law of the Universe it would simply be mundane and everybody would do it. Things would be different, but ordinary, nontheless.

What you really mean is that you want to have magic powers exclusively.

Given that everything that could possibly exist does exist, it's sad that so many feel so powerless and ineffectual they need to yearn for more.

[Dancing David]

Uh, magic is as common as a corned beef sandwich and very tasty, especialy with a pickle spear and fries.

We exist, that is magic enough.

[Dancing David]

I needed some chewing time for that.

You noted that I basically said that the laws of physics apply constraints to reality. It's true that instead of applying contraints the laws of physics merely summarize what we know about reality. Breaking any of the currently established laws of physics does not immediatly prove that everything you've dreamed up is suddenly real. But belief in magic seriously isn't an exact science or logical. If one thing that scientific experiment could never prove actually exists (channeling etc), or one law can be broken you sort of open the flood gate for my imagination since I can just say: "See? It's possible.. think of all the other things that may exist that have elluded science!" The way it stands now science has shown that almost any explanation for a complex phenomenon created by your imagination does not survive scientific experiment. Maybe I just want to see the scientific establishment fall face first into a puddle of mud and acknowledge that the intuitive mind can gain deep knowledge of the universe through intuition.

Um, science already does? How about the book Blink? Science does study intuition, it is called other things as well stereotyping for example. A trianed intuition that is aided by a sense of scepticism is a very useful thing.

Our brains are associative by nature, it is important to follow your 'gut feelings', however it is masterful to understand why you have those gut feelings and to sort out the valid perception from the invalid ones.




By the center of reality I mean that the rules according to which reality behaves are influenced by the human mind. This would mean that the rules applied by the will of the human mind are the ultimate reality.

Not reality but human perception of reality. The reality seems to exist. We are beings that manufacture our perceptions from the sensations. So human perceptions can be altered in a meaningful way. But some paths lead to health and others to delusion and paranois. You can influence your perceptions.

Just be careful where you go.




It should be noted, that one of my few reasons to not want to believe in magic is that the current laws of nature are so amazingly simple, yet all the complexity of the cosmos and life can evolve within their framework without intervention of any sort of intelligence that is above these laws.

How many players are there in the universe? Complexity can arise from simplicity.

[Beerina]

Practiced shamanism, wicca and cermonial magick (non-sexual)

Oh, you were having problems, weren't you?

One guy leads several girls into the woods, and they all get naked and dance around. What were you thinking?!?!? :)

[cyborg]

Power. Over others. Especially the ignorant.

Power. Over that which one cannot control.

That includes other people as well as any other phenomena one is powerless to affect: the weather for example.

Magic is just one system devised in order to enable people to feel that they have such control.

Here's a little table I have come up with:

Mechanism|Reasoning|Example|Post hoc failure explanation|Real reason for failure
Secret Utterances|Say the right password to nature and nature will give you access to things normally impossible to do. A bit like a hacking a computer program to gain control of the outer system that can do more than the constrained environment you're in|Harry Potter's pseudo Latin phrases|Got the words wrong|No one is listening
Sacrifice|When you want something from someone else you need to trade for it; if you want something from nature you also need to trade for it.|Burning an animal in order to get favourable farming conditions|Didn't sacrifice the right thing or enough of it.|Nature isn't interested in material possession
Submission|Total and utter obedience to the whims of Nature. Bad behaviour leads to punishment. Good behaviour leads to rewards.|Popular in monotheistic religions|You or someone else was breaking the rules. Punish them to regain favour.|Nature doesn't care how you behave

I'm sure people can think of more.

[Jimbo07]

I'll take my stab at the overriding reason:

All want to believe in magic to feel special. It's an emotional response. I don't think it's an accident that feelings are often emphasized over 'reason,' where discussions of magic are concerned. This specialness can range from a desire to have power or status to simple acceptance and validation. Some need a rationale for acting 'different' than their peers... but... in the end, I'd still suggest that it stems largely from a desire to feel special.

P.S.:

Science can promise us as much, or more, as magic does. But it goes one better: it delivers on that promise.


Yoink!

:D

[articulett]

Taking 'magic' to mean, 'the ability of a human being to do amazing things to nature by simply commanding it to do them', I'd say it's obviously a desire for power over our own lives (and, for the less mature of us, over others' lives too).

At least, that's what I found so cool about magic when I was about eight or nine.

Of course, I was somewhat disappointed to find out, as I grew up, that there is no such thing as magic (in that sense, not of course the entertainment sense). But in school I discovered science. Science can promise us as much, or more, as magic does. But it goes one better: it delivers on that promise.

Science: Magic That Works! (TM) :)

Science delivers-- moreover you don't have to "believe in it" for it to work.

I think people believe with the hope that they are special--they can tap into it or have a part of it... But I find it much more empowering to know that there is no magic-- It seems like such an unpredictable world if demons or magic or supernatural elements that we can never measure explain or control are involved. I found it angst provoking to be told as a kid that there was some nebulous rubric I was supposed to follow that involved thinking or praying or faith and was important to my eternity.

I like Randi's challenge... it allows me to eliminate a whole group of people who are full of crap. ''Same for anyone claiming to know anything about consciousness outside a living brain" (god, souls, demons, engrams). I take it that should the laws of physics actually be defied or that some supernatural claim ever gains evidence in support of it... I'll hear about it. If I don't understand something, I know a good skeptics forum where I can talk with people who do... and who can explain it to me.

When people talk about not destroying other peoples faith by showing deference and playing along... I always think... well what if the person is like me. I'd rather not know something than try to make sense of some lie. And even better--I'd rather know the facts--even if they are contrary to what I hoped would be true.

[articulett]

Power. Over that which one cannot control.

That includes other people as well as any other phenomena one is powerless to affect: the weather for example.

Magic is just one system devised in order to enable people to feel that they have such control.

Here's a little table I have come up with:

Mechanism|Reasoning|Example|Post hoc failure explanation|Real reason for failure
Secret Utterances|Say the right password to nature and nature will give you access to things normally impossible to do. A bit like a hacking a computer program to gain control of the outer system that can do more than the constrained environment you're in|Harry Potter's pseudo Latin phrases|Got the words wrong|No one is listening
Sacrifice|When you want something from someone else you need to trade for it; if you want something from nature you also need to trade for it.|Burning an animal in order to get favourable farming conditions|Didn't sacrifice the right thing or enough of it.|Nature isn't interested in material possession
Submission|Total and utter obedience to the whims of Nature. Bad behaviour leads to punishment. Good behaviour leads to rewards.|Popular in monotheistic religions|You or someone else was breaking the rules. Punish them to regain favour.|Nature doesn't care how you behave

I'm sure people can think of more.


How can I steal this with the formatting? Yeah... this is good. I think belief in magic evolves from our learning mechanism where we naturally associate correlation with causation. It's a great learning mechanism... we can get pigs, dogs, and pigeons to do all sorts of crazy things if we can get them to associate it with a reward (when a pig loses it's feeding collar that opens up the feed gate, it will do all sorts of crazy movement trying to recreate the "right steps" for making the food gods deliver... pigeons will also try crazy reward dances when reward pellets are awarded randomly...it's like they think something they did caused the random reward... gambling is all about this sort of fallacious reasoning.)

Science helps us take such irrationalities into account so we can go beyond them. It's the advantage of having frontal lobes. Unfortunately, many people seem to live with primitive or childish thinking enforced through adulthood through religion telling them that "faith is good" and you can get presents for "believing" and it's "bad to bite from the tree of knowledge". Those dispensing "magic" have a vested interest in a retarded populace-- they leech off the thinking that evolved to help us learn and remains stunted through religion. Why bother learning facts if "faith and feelings" and the "laws of attraction" are the way to reap rewards both here and in eternity? I think religion keeps brains woo-ready long after such beliefs should have been outgrown. It makes sure that the sucker born every minute stays a sucker into adulthood so that others can take advantage of their credulity.

[Dancing David]

Oh, you were having problems, weren't you?

One guy leads several girls into the woods, and they all get naked and dance around. What were you thinking?!?!? :)



No problems at all, I have practised skyclad by meself and with an intimate partner. i don't like sexual magick, trying to visualize the god from just ruins the magic of sex.

The politics of covens are bad enough without the sex.

:)

[Dancing David]

Power. Over that which one cannot control.

That includes other people as well as any other phenomena one is powerless to affect: the weather for example.

Magic is just one system devised in order to enable people to feel that they have such control.

Here's a little table I have come up with:

Mechanism|Reasoning|Example|Post hoc failure explanation|Real reason for failure
Secret Utterances|Say the right password to nature and nature will give you access to things normally impossible to do. A bit like a hacking a computer program to gain control of the outer system that can do more than the constrained environment you're in|Harry Potter's pseudo Latin phrases|Got the words wrong|No one is listening
Sacrifice|When you want something from someone else you need to trade for it; if you want something from nature you also need to trade for it.|Burning an animal in order to get favourable farming conditions|Didn't sacrifice the right thing or enough of it.|Nature isn't interested in material possession
Submission|Total and utter obedience to the whims of Nature. Bad behaviour leads to punishment. Good behaviour leads to rewards.|Popular in monotheistic religions|You or someone else was breaking the rules. Punish them to regain favour.|Nature doesn't care how you behave

I'm sure people can think of more.


I like your table a lot!

The trick to sympathetic magic is to create a link between you and the object to be influenced. IE the fingernails of the victim or a candle you burn only on rainy days. That is the reason why praying good things for your enemies is better than cursing them, you are the channel for the enegy either way.
In cermonial magick the goal is to invoke the deity, assume the god form and wield the attribute or command the angel or turn the water wine. ;)

The trick is this:

Consciousness influences perception, a change in consciousness creates a change in perception, a change in perception changes the world (as percieved).

It is a good way to feel calm and relaxed and a great way to be delusional as well.

[Delusions_O_Grandeur]

What makes you think that if magic was real it would not be as common and ordinary as making a corned beef sandwich? If imagic was a law of the Universe it would simply be mundane and everybody would do it. Things would be different, but ordinary, nontheless.

My initial reason for wanting to believe in magic was really because of its extraordinary nature. If extraordinary things unprovable to science exist, there would be a higher chance that extraordinary things I thought of, are also true. So if magic were real and ordinary I'd be wishing for something entirely different right now. This is a very bad way to prove your ideas are correct, but I'm talking about my emotions here.

So, you did help me realize that it's really the extraordinary that I want to be real. Why do I want to extraordiinary to be real? Because I want something from the universe that is currently among 'extraordinary claims'. I want the chance to fully utilize my talents during my existence. Development to full potential is the highest thing a human can achieve in my opinion. The universe has no notion of things like "Development" "Achievement" "Purpose", so there is no reason to expect a mechanism in this universe that will make sure I can fulfill my "Purpose". In the magical worldview the universe is a lot friendlier because it's conciouss and has a purpose for every human being. I have to give up this worldview though because there is no evidence to support it. If I want to find some beauty I'll really have to look for it in the 'physics' section of science. Pherhaps in time I can appreciate it as beauty by itself, that even without intelligence or purpose complex life forms can develop.

[Delusions_O_Grandeur]

**ARF DOUBLE POSST! I'll fill it with the second half of my post then**

Um, science already does? How about the book Blink? Science does study intuition, it is called other things as well stereotyping for example. A trianed intuition that is aided by a sense of scepticism is a very useful thing. Just be careful where you go.

How many players are there in the universe? Complexity can arise from simplicity.

Oh, by deep knowledge I mean things like the laws of physics, not whether a person has good intentions for you. We can see from the history of mysticism that getting laws of physics from meditation isn't quite working, direct observation of reality followed by deduction of mathematical relationships did the trick. I agree that scepticism is needed to keep intuition from taking over. The final question to be asked is always: "In light of things previously proven, does this make sense?"

How many players? I'm not sure what you mean but I'd say one. I think physics will lead to a grand unification theory but this just a risky extrapolation of the fact that the amount of laws of nature usually shrinks with new discoveries.

[Dancing David]

[QUOTE=Delusions_O_Grandeur;2873644] In the magical worldview the universe is a lot friendlier because it's conciouss and has a purpose for every human being. [QUOTE]

I suggest reading stories from the time that world view dominated, I am not sure it is frindlier.

You could also read Magick in Theory and Practice.

[fuelair]

Because I want to have power over you stupid muggles.

All you mug-bloods need to be put in your place.

Long live Lord Voldimort!
I'm guessing mug-bloods are those whose bodies flow with beer!!:D

[jesus_freak]

Why do people want to believe in magic?...so that evolution could make complete sense to them.

[Darth Rotor]

This post has been long due from my side. I want to understand why I have a desire to believe in magic. This is my best shot at it.

To heck with believing in magic, I want to be able to do a few incantations.

First one is the "X Ray vision" spell that allows me to undress people with my eyes, literally.

Second one is gust of wind, which blows up skirts with a small gesture, to permit many a Marylin Monroe skirt billowing moment.

Third one is flying under my own control, no plane needed. That would be so cool, until the neighborhood kids start shooting at me with BB guns as I land in my yard.

Fourth one: invisibility. So much potential for practical jokes. :D

DR

[Delusions_O_Grandeur]

Dancing David: I can't click the link, if that's what the underlined text is supposed to be.

[Tanstaafl]

Because I want to have power over you stupid muggles.

All you mug-bloods need to be put in your place.

Long live Lord Voldimort!


Better watch out, Voldemort he who must not be named may smite you for misspelling his name.

[Tanstaafl]

Why do people want to believe in magic?...so that evolution could make complete sense to them.


Welcome back, jesus_freak!

If you want evolution to make sense, you might try actually studying evolution. You know, as in biology text books, not answersingenesis.com.

[Dancing David]

Dancing David: I can't click the link, if that's what the underlined text is supposed to be.

It is a book by A. Crowley, he hid the best stuff in the most offensive material.

Amazon has it: http://www.amazon.com/Magick-Theory-Practice-Aleister-Crowley/dp/1555217664

It also appears to be on the net.

[Delusions_O_Grandeur]

I suggest reading stories from the time that world view dominated, I am not sure it is frindlier.

You could also read Magick in Theory and Practice.

Thanks for the book recommendation, if I can find the time I'll squeeze it in between "The goldilocks enigma" and "The God delusion". I'm sort of going through the 'purging intelligence from all creation mechanisms' phase.

Oh, and I'm well aware that the magical world view was responsible for deadly superstition in medival times. Just believing in magic is pretty pointless and dangerous if you don't test such beliefs scientifically.

Wanting something to be true is entirely different from believing it to be true. That's why my tag says 'unwilling skeptic'.

[articulett]

Welcome back, jesus_freak!

If you want evolution to make sense, you might try actually studying evolution. You know, as in biology text books, not answersingenesis.com.

Aw shucks... don't rain on his self-important parade. He was amusing himself by pretending that facts are magic and his magic Jesus is real. The woo are a never ending font of cleverness in their own minds. I have a theory that their "intelligent designer" sends them to the JREF forum for our amusement.