Second coming

[Oliver]

Please excuse my rather short question to provide some evidence for my investigation concerning the "second coming" and Israel - since I don't know how widespread this believe is.

From what I've read so far, many Jews in Israel (or "Zionists") believe that once their State of Israel is accepted and if they return to their Holy Land, Jesus will come again - Known as the "second coming (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Coming)".

Now my question is:

How widespread is this Idea and how many Jews have to return to Israel to make their second-coming believe true?

Who else does believe in this on behalf the Jewish religion besides Jewish believers? (I heard some Christians groups support this Idea in the US)

[slingblade]

The Dome of the Rock must be destroyed for one thing, according to my old instruction. It's supposedly built on the site of the former Hebraic temple, and Christ will not return until his temple is rebuilt in its original place.

The idea of the second coming is a mish-mash of superstitious ideas, most only vaguely supoprted by the bible. The Rapture of the Saints, for instance, is one of those.

Edit: and as far as I know, all Christian groups believe Christ will return. Jewish people do not, as they never believed in him to start with. This is not, therefore, a Jewish idea at all. It is purely Christian.

[gtc]

Indeed.

Oliver, you are thinking of Christian Zionists. They think that Jesus (as the messiah) will return.

Jews are still waiting for the messiah to come for the first time.

[Loss Leader]

Please excuse my rather short question to provide some evidence for my investigation concerning the "second coming" and Israel - since I don't know how widespread this believe is.

From what I've read so far, many Jews in Israel (or "Zionists") believe that once their State of Israel is accepted and if they return to their Holy Land, Jesus will come again - Known as the "second coming (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Coming)".

Now my question is:

How widespread is this Idea and how many Jews have to return to Israel to make their second-coming believe true?

Who else does believe in this on behalf the Jewish religion besides Jewish believers? (I heard some Christians groups support this Idea in the US)


On behalf of Jews everywhere, I can say without hesitation that not a single one of us believes anything you just said. It is, in fact, one of the most ignorant statements I have ever seen.

First of all, Jews don't believe Jesus was the messiah. We don't believe anything about him. We don't care or pay attention to anything he said or did at all in any way. So, we're not waiting for the second coming because we don't believe there was a first coming.

Second of all, the entire Jewish concept of the messiah is radically different in Judaism than in Christianity. We do not believe in a save-your-soul kind of messiah who ushers in peace on earth. (Some later prophetic books may make mention of such a thing but the Jews I know take it as poetic hyperbole.) The only thing the messiah does is rebuild the Great Temple. That's it. He leads Jews to Israel where he rebuilds the Great Temple and this ushers in an era of a stable and peaceful Jewish state somehow.

So you've got it backwards. No Jews think we need some critical mass of Jews in Israel. In fact, the most pious Hassidic Jews won't even recognize the state of Israel. Instead, the messiah comes first and then we go back to Israel.

You may be thinking of Fundamentalist Christians whose beliefs are: a) weird; and b) not endorsed by Jews.

Really, Oliver, you must not have researched this too hard because it's just complete and utter nonsense.

[UnrepentantSinner]

From what I've read so far, many Jews in Israel (or "Zionists") believe that once their State of Israel is accepted and if they return to their Holy Land, Jesus will come again - Known as the "second coming (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Coming)".

You've already been corrected on this stunningly ignorant assertion, but my question to you is - where the hell did you read this?

[The Atheist]

...From what I've read so far, many Jews in Israel (or "Zionists") believe that once their State of Israel is accepted and if they return to their Holy Land, Jesus will come again ...

:dl:

Sorry Oliver, but that is priceless. I see you've had that misconception corrected already.

You read that at LCF?

[Hokulele]

Please excuse my rather short question to provide some evidence for my investigation concerning the "second coming" and Israel - since I don't know how widespread this believe is.

From what I've read so far, many Jews in Israel (or "Zionists") believe that once their State of Israel is accepted and if they return to their Holy Land, Jesus will come again - Known as the "second coming (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Coming)".

Now my question is:

How widespread is this Idea and how many Jews have to return to Israel to make their second-coming believe true?

Who else does believe in this on behalf the Jewish religion besides Jewish believers? (I heard some Christians groups support this Idea in the US)


I hope I don't sound like I am picking on you or anything, but I would like to echo the request for a link as to where you have heard this. It really is one of the more bizarre interpretations of Judaism I have heard, and I would be interested in seeing the source.

[phildonnia]

The Dome of the Rock must be destroyed for one thing...

And since there's currently a big mosque built there, it is not implausible that its destruction would entail some sort of excrement-storm.

[Ryokan]

I had a second coming once.

It was great. Divine, you might say.

[Moochie]

I think it appropriate that the Second Coming take place in Second Life.

M.

[Beerina]

I believe there are "Jews for Jesus", but it is a fringe group and hardly some mainstream theology anywhere.

[timhau]

I believe there are "Jews for Jesus", but it is a fringe group and hardly some mainstream theology anywhere.

Sounds a lot like "Vegans for Spam TM", if you ask me.

[UnrepentantSinner]

From what I've read so far, many Jews in Israel (or "Zionists") believe that once their State of Israel is accepted and if they return to their Holy Land, Jesus will come again - Known as the "second coming (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Coming)".

Oliver, I was still hoping you'd reply as to where you read this.

I believe there are "Jews for Jesus", but it is a fringe group and hardly some mainstream theology anywhere.

Oh it's mainstream theology alright - Christianity. :D

[Bikewer]

An interesting take on this is from Bart Ehrman's book on the Gospel of Judas.

He identifies Jesus as an apocalyptic preacher, and that an individual called The Son Of Man would be descending from heaven to sit in Judgment. After this event, Jesus would be installed as the King Of The Jews, and the 12 Apostles would then each rule over one of the re-formed tribes of Israel.

The business about JC himself returning was all added later....

[Loss Leader]

Did anybody PM Oliver about this? I'm a little miffed he didn't return to the thread.

[slingblade]

Did anybody PM Oliver about this? I'm a little miffed he didn't return to the thread.

Until the Dumb as a Rock has been destroyed, and the original Farfegnugen Temple has been rebuilt, Oliver will not make his Second Coming into the thread.

I thought you knew your scripture?

[Mr Clingford]

I believe there are "Jews for Jesus", but it is a fringe group and hardly some mainstream theology anywhere.I think they are Jewish by 'race', not faith, who can be as mainstream as any other Christians.

[Darth Rotor]

It is, in fact, one of the most ignorant statements I have ever seen.

This is an Oliver OP. What were you expecting, pearls of wisdom?

DR

[Oliver]

This is an Oliver OP. What were you expecting, pearls of wisdom?

DR


:D

But seriously - I messed it up with the Christian Zionists and thought that the Christian Zionist Movement based their nonsense believes on Jewish believes - or Zionists believes in general.

So I guess I was deadly wrong - but basically that's exactly what I wanted to know. :boxedin:

[Hokulele]

:D

But seriously - I messed it up with the Christian Zionists and thought that the Christian Zionist Movement based their nonsense believes on Jewish believes - or Zionists believes in general.

So I guess I was deadly wrong - but basically that's exactly what I wanted to know. :boxedin:


Well Oliver, don't believe everything you read. ;)

And I am still curious, where did you hear this in the first place?

[Oliver]

So the Christian Zionists are the only Group that believes that Israel has to be established in order to "allow" Jesus to come back from his Vacation, right? :confused:

ETA: @Hokulele: It was on a jewish site talking about the "Second Coming" - but I have to look if I find the article again between the millions of second coming sites.

[Giggywig]

:D

But seriously - I messed it up with the Christian Zionists and thought that the Christian Zionist Movement based their nonsense believes on Jewish believes - or Zionists believes in general.
I may be misunderstanding you, but I don't think Jewish beliefs are a subset of Zionist beliefs.

[Oliver]

I may be misunderstanding you, but I don't think Jewish beliefs are a subset of Zionist beliefs.


Now I also doubt that. But as far I understand it now, the Christian Zionist believes are also not connected to Zionists believes in general regarding the "second coming" - or is there a connection?

[ponderingturtle]

On behalf of Jews everywhere, I can say without hesitation that not a single one of us believes anything you just said. It is, in fact, one of the most ignorant statements I have ever seen.


This is not strictly true. There are the Messianic Jews, but other jews don't like them and neither do most christians.

[ponderingturtle]

Sounds a lot like "Vegans for Spam TM", if you ask me.

Link (http://www.mjaa.org/)
Link 2 (http://www.messianicjewish.net/)
Link3 (http://www.messianic.com/)

[firecoins]

Now I also doubt that. But as far I understand it now, the Christian Zionist believes are also not connected to Zionists believes in general regarding the "second coming" - or is there a connection?
I just smacked my forehead after reading this. Just stop. "Zionism is a subset of Judiasm. There is no conection to Christianity whatsoever other than Jesus was Jewish.

[Oliver]

I just smacked my forehead after reading this. Just stop. "Zionism is a subset of Judiasm. There is no conection to Christianity whatsoever other than Jesus was Jewish.


Accepted. So there is also no connection between Zionists believes and Christian Zionists believes concerning the "second coming", right? :confused:

[Loss Leader]

Accepted. So there is also no connection between Zionists believes and Christian Zionists believes concerning the "second coming", right? :confused:


There is no connection between Jews who support the State of Israel for any reason and Christian Fundamentalists who support Israel out of some sort of belief about the messiah.

But I think you need better words for them than Zionists and Christian Zionists.

[ponderingturtle]

There is no connection between Jews who support the State of Israel for any reason and Christian Fundamentalists who support Israel out of some sort of belief about the messiah.

But I think you need better words for them than Zionists and Christian Zionists.

No theological connection, I think a political connection could be easily demonstrated.

[slingblade]

Accepted. So there is also no connection between Zionists believes and Christian Zionists believes concerning the "second coming", right? :confused:

"Beliefs." A person has beliefs. As in: "I believe in my beliefs."

Jesus worshipers are Christians. Jews are not Christians, because they are not Jesus worshipers.

[ponderingturtle]

"Beliefs." A person has beliefs. As in: "I believe in my beliefs."

Jesus worshipers are Christians. Jews are not Christians, because they are not Jesus worshipers.

And the messianic jews?

[Oliver]

And the messianic jews?


What are the messianic Jews and what is their connection to Zionism?
And who is "Yeshua"?

[slingblade]

Yeshua is Jesus. See following post.

[slingblade]

And the messianic jews?

Are of little consequence. There aren't enough of them to fill an average stadium.

But they do exist, and probably seek the second coming. Are they Zionists?

Among the 14 million Jewish people there is a group of perhaps twenty or thirty thousand people, born Jews, who believe in the Torah and the rest of the Tenach and practice Jewish customs and religion. They also believe in Jesus. Some, if not most of them, prefer to call Him by His Jewish name, Yeshua. Although small in number, they are a vocal group, constantly challenging the Jewish spiritual and secular authorities with their presence, demanding recognition as Jews.

[Civilized Worm]

Chrisitians are waiting for the second coming, jews are waiting for the first coming, and I'm waiting from both lots to get a clue.

[Oliver]

Chrisitians are waiting for the second coming, jews are waiting for the first coming, and I'm waiting from both lots to get a clue.


What do you mean by "jews are waiting for the first coming". When will this be according to Jewish Beliefs?

[Civilized Worm]

Any minute now.

[gtc]

What do you mean by "jews are waiting for the first coming". When will this be according to Jewish Beliefs?

As far as I know, there is no single belief about when and under what conditions the Messiah will arrive. Different Jewsish groups have different beliefs.

For instance, some Jews object to the existence of Israel for religous reasons. I think this has something to do with their beliefs about the Messiah.

These are the groups that are involved (I think).

Jews who support Israel for non-religous reasons (called zionists).
Jews who support Israel for religous reasons (also called zionists).
Jews who have become Christian but want to retain their Jewish identity (messianic jews or Jews-for-Jesus). They may or may not be zionists.
Christians who support Israel because they believe Israel will bring about the second coming (sometimes called Christian zionists).
Christians and other non-Jews who support Israel for other reasons (I don't think they have a name)

[Oliver]

As far as I know, there is no single belief about when and under what conditions the Messiah will arrive. Different Jewsish groups have different beliefs.

For instance, some Jews object to the existence of Israel for religous reasons. I think this has something to do with their beliefs about the Messiah.

These are the groups that are involved (I think).

Jews who support Israel for non-religous reasons (called zionists).
Jews who support Israel for religous reasons (also called zionists).
Jews who have become Christian but want to retain their Jewish identity (messianic jews or Jews-for-Jesus). They may or may not be zionists.
Christians who support Israel because they believe Israel will bring about the second coming (sometimes called Christian zionists).
Christians and other non-Jews who support Israel for other reasons (I don't think they have a name)


Well, I also don't understand the different beliefs of Jewish believers - and I never really examined the texts within the Tanakh and the Talmud. But I suspect that there are phrases about the second/first coming as well, aren't there?

[Oliver]

I saw "CNN's gods holy warriors" some days ago and they state that there is indeed a connection between Zionists and Christian Zionists concerning the second or first coming of Jesus.

Does someone in here know more about that? And how widespread is the "first coming belief"?

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=gods+warriors+cnn+jewish+part&search=Search

[Oliver]

I saw "CNN's gods holy warriors" some days ago and they state that there is indeed a connection between Zionists and Christian Zionists concerning the second or first coming of Jesus.

Does someone in here know more about that? And how widespread is the "first coming belief"?

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=gods+warriors+cnn+jewish+part&search=Search



Anyone who's able to explain the common beliefs between Jews and Christians concerning the "second/first coming"? :confused:

[NobbyNobbs]

I believe there are "Jews for Jesus", but it is a fringe group and hardly some mainstream theology anywhere.

I think they are Jewish by 'race', not faith, who can be as mainstream as any other Christians.

This is not strictly true. There are the Messianic Jews, but other jews don't like them and neither do most christians.

Not all of them are even born jewish. Many want to "be Jewish" because Jesus was Jewish, and therefore "being Jewish" brings you closer to Jesus.

The irony is that "being Jewish", by any reasonable definition, negates any possibility of a belief in Jesus.

I can't speak for all Jews, but if they are anything like myself, they believe that the term "messianic Jew" is absolutely correct, except for the "Jew" part.


ETA: @Hokulele: It was on a jewish site talking about the "Second Coming" - but I have to look if I find the article again between the millions of second coming sites.

I'd be surprised to find a Jewish site talking about the second coming, unless they happened to be discussing the beliefs of Christians.


What do you mean by "jews are waiting for the first coming". When will this be according to Jewish Beliefs?


A half hour late. :D

[gtc]

A half hour late. :D

Really?

When I think about it, all my Jewish friends are annoyingly punctual.

[slingblade]

Anyone who's able to explain the common beliefs between Jews and Christians concerning the "second/first coming"? :confused:

No. I am not able to explain the actual beliefs.

I am able to give you the benefit of what I was taught as a child, however, inaccuracies and all. Please note that all you are getting here is what the Christians I knew as a child said to me. There is probably no fact here whatsoever. Okay? We're clear on that? Okay.

Apparently, the Jewish people have always been persecuted. To them it was promised at some point that a messiah, a savior, would come to put an end to this persecution.

Apparently, he did arrive, but only some people recognized him as such. He developed a cult following, this guy, which has grown into one of the larger and more oppressive religions in the world.

Apparently, the Jewish people, or faith, or how ever one labels it, are still waiting for this to happen.

This is the sole connection between the Jewish belief and the Christian one.
One said it would happen, another said it has, and the first said "Nuh-uh, it has not!"


The End. Please remember your coats and hats on the way out.

[The Grave]

Please excuse my rather short question to provide some evidence for my investigation concerning the "second coming" and Israel - since I don't know how widespread this believe is.

From what I've read so far, many Jews in Israel (or "Zionists") believe that once their State of Israel is accepted and if they return to their Holy Land, Jesus will come again - Known as the "second coming (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Coming)".

Now my question is:

How widespread is this Idea and how many Jews have to return to Israel to make their second-coming believe true?

Who else does believe in this on behalf the Jewish religion besides Jewish believers? (I heard some Christians groups support this Idea in the US)



Once is good enough!

[joobz]

Since Jesus had no known offspring, I am not convinced that there was a first coming.

[Robin]

Can somebody tell me how many Christians believe that Mohammed is God's last and greatest Prophet?

[slingblade]

Can somebody tell me how many Christians believe that Mohammed is God's last and greatest Prophet?

Maybe. Has anyone ever asked them all, or at least a large enough sampling for reasonable* accuracy?

The ones I knew did not. YMMV.








*that being a relative term.

[Oliver]

No. I am not able to explain the actual beliefs.

I am able to give you the benefit of what I was taught as a child, however, inaccuracies and all. Please note that all you are getting here is what the Christians I knew as a child said to me. There is probably no fact here whatsoever. Okay? We're clear on that? Okay.

Apparently, the Jewish people have always been persecuted. To them it was promised at some point that a messiah, a savior, would come to put an end to this persecution.

Apparently, he did arrive, but only some people recognized him as such. He developed a cult following, this guy, which has grown into one of the larger and more oppressive religions in the world.

Apparently, the Jewish people, or faith, or how ever one labels it, are still waiting for this to happen.

This is the sole connection between the Jewish belief and the Christian one.
One said it would happen, another said it has, and the first said "Nuh-uh, it has not!"

The End. Please remember your coats and hats on the way out.


Well, I asked because I didn't read the Torah. I assumed that since Christians
and Jews share parts of their holy scriptures, that there is a connection
in shared beliefs regarding first/second coming.

Never mind...

[slingblade]

Well, I asked because I didn't read the Torah. I assumed that since Christians
and Jews share parts of their holy scriptures, that there is a connection
in shared beliefs regarding first/second coming.

Never mind...

I've never read the torah either.

There's no connection of the sort you seem or appear to be looking for.
It's like being in a crowd, waiting for a green bus. Some of the people see the green bus and get on. The others don't see it and keep waiting.

The first group later tells the second, "Hey, we saw the bus, got on, and came back. Sorry you missed it. But it's okay, the bus will be making a second stop here, any time now."

And the second group says "Well, we didn't see any green bus. As far as we're concerned, it's never shown up, and we think we'd know a big green bus if we'd seen it. We're still waiting, thanks. Go take your mythical 'the green bus was already here and we have ridden on it' stories elsewhere, thanks."

[quixotecoyote]

At which point the atheists wander by and point out they're in a train station.

[Gravy]

Anyone who's able to explain the common beliefs between Jews and Christians concerning the "second/first coming"? :confused:There isn't much in common. As you know, Christians believe that the messiah came in the form of Jesus, went away, and will need to return to finish the job, because God screwed up and needed a few thousand more years to figure out a new plan.

Jews do not believe that Jesus was the messiah, and there is no single Jewish view or acceptance of the idea that a messiah will arrive.

Orthodox Jews tend to believe that a descendant of the House of David will lead them into an era of peace and happiness in a new Israel. This caused lots of problems in the 17th century when many Jews decided that a guy who lived in what is now Turkey was the Messiah (look up Sabbateanism). They flocked to be near him, which the Turks didn't like, so they arrested him. He converted to Islam under duress, and the Sabbatean movement died out. It's interesting that we often hear about religious martyrs but not about those who chose not to martyr themselves. I wonder if there are books on the subject.

Orthodox Hasidic Jews are particularly wed to the idea of a Messiah. One of the largest and most proselytizing Hasidic sects, the Lubavitchers, had a problem with that in the '90s that remains controversial today. Many of them decided that their current Rabbi, Menachem Schneerson, was the Messiah. Schneerson did nothing to discourage this belief, and he compounded it by not naming a successor (how do you replace the Messiah?). When he died an old man in 1994, the sect was thrown into turmoil, with many recriminations thrown back and forth, splinter groups forming, and a growing acknowledgment that the episode made the true believers look like idiots. Not exactly the era of peace they were expecting. This happened in Brooklyn, where I live.

Conservative and Reform Jewish doctrines reject the idea of a messiah in human form in favor of the idea of a coming era of peace. Interestingly, Reform Judaism in the 19th and early 20th century was strongly anti-Zionist. Now it's fairly strongly Zionist, and I think you can figure out what happened to effect that change.

I don't know what percentage of Jews belong to what sects. Most Jews in the US are Reform.

[Meadmaker]

Sounds a lot like "Vegans for Spam TM", if you ask me.
:)

[Meadmaker]

Well, I asked because I didn't read the Torah. I assumed that since Christians
and Jews share parts of their holy scriptures, that there is a connection
in shared beliefs regarding first/second coming.

Never mind...

When it comes to the messiah, there isn't a lot of common ground in beliefs. I'll try to give a short answer.


First, I'm assuming that your questions are sincere, but that you aren't all that familiar with either Jewish or Christian beliefs. So, I'm going to include some pretty elementary stuff here.

The first five books in the Bible are called the Torah by Jews. What Christians call the Old Testament is known by Jews as the Tanakh. Jews consider the Tanakh to be scriptural, but not as important as the Torah.

In some books of the Tanakh, which were written when Israel was under foreign domination, there is a reference to a coming Messiah, who would free Israel and establish a holy land there. When the Romans were in charge there, the Jews weren't so happy with them, and many wanted them gone. They looked in their holy books and and noted that the Messiah would come someday and they figured that if he came soon, he would throw out the Romans. First century Judea was just crawling with Messiah hopefuls.

One of those Messiah hopefuls was Jesus. There was a bit of a problem, though. The Messiah was supposed to liberate Israel, and establish a theocracy there where the true religion would be dominant. Being dead, that didn't seem likely. However, Jesus' followers were especially adamant that Jesus was the Messiah, and somewhere along the line they decided that the Messiah would come not once, but twice, and all those fairly specific prophesies about what would happen when the Messiah came referred to when he came the second time.

For most Jews, the Messiah just isn't a big part of religious belief. Many still hold to a belief that at some time in the future, a Messiah will come, and there is some dispute about exactly what will happen at that time, but that's a more complex topic. Suffice it to say that if you ask three Jews about the Messiah, you will get seven opionions, instead of the usual five.