Healings?

[ned flandas]

Does healing through prayer fit into the Million Dollar Challenge scenario?

[IMST]

Sure if it can be done in a way that is controlled and obviously apparent (requiring no judging). If someone can heal broken bones on the spot through prayer, that would work.

[ned flandas]

What do you mean by controlled?

If a man had a broken arm and I walked over to him, prayed and he was healed, that would win the challenge?

[Oualawouzou]

What do you mean by controlled?

If a man had a broken arm and I walked over to him, prayed and he was healed, that would win the challenge?

A controlled setting for this would be to have an independant third party confirm the man's arm is broken prior to the prayer and mended after the prayer, with no other reasonnable explanation to explain the mending.

Any of this happening in a setting that isn't controlled and monitored expressly (sp?) for the MDC would be considered suspect and not eligible.

Disclaimer: If you want the official JREF answer, contact them. I think the e-mail is challenge@randi.org , if memory serves me right.

[fls]

"Controlled" means you are using a control. A control serves as a standard against which you measure the claim. In the case of a broken arm, the standard is already known - no spontaneous healing - so immediate healing would show a definite, otherwise inexplicable, difference. In less obvious situations, such as recovery from a heart attack, the control would be an equivalent group of people who are not prayed for, as we wouldn't be able to tell beforehand exactly what to expect.

Linda

ETA: And "controlled" also means under settings that exclude bias and fraud, as pointed out by Oualawouzou.

[ned flandas]

ok.. so if it was something like an arm growing back in front of your eyes (which a friend of mine has seen), that would do it?

[fls]

ok.. so if it was something like an arm growing back in front of your eyes (which a friend of mine has seen), that would do it?

I would say yes. That sounds like a very doable, and ethical demonstration. The person who gets the final say is Randi, though.

ETA: I forgot about the changes to the challenge. Is the person doing the healing through prayer already in the public eye?

Linda

[IMST]

I would say yes. That sounds like a very doable, and ethical demonstration. The person who gets the final say is Randi, though.

ETA: I forgot about the changes to the challenge. Is the person doing the healing through prayer already in the public eye?

Linda

I'd agree with that one too. With the new challenge rules, this one's still doable even without a media presence. It is so straightforward that it should be able to easily pass a smaller skeptical organization's challange and therefore be automatically eligible for Randi's.
Though I don't believe for a moment that this will happen, I sure hope it does. This would be an amazing boon to medicine if true.

[JoeEllison]

ok.. so if it was something like an arm growing back in front of your eyes (which a friend of mine has seen), that would do it?

Did you know that cell phones have cameras in them?

[prewitt81]

ok.. so if it was something like an arm growing back in front of your eyes (which a friend of mine has seen), that would do it?

Which news agencies reported on this world-changing event?

[ned flandas]

Which news agencies reported on this world-changing event?

none

[JoeEllison]

none

Did your friend see it in some far-off country, where they don't have newspapers/indoor plumbing?

[prewitt81]

none

Hmm. . . ok. What is the name of a medical doctor or doctors who can confirm that this happened?

[William Smith]

none

Assuming your friend wasn't chemically altered and this is not a prank, how did he make sure that what he saw was not a trick?

Will you provide more diddly-details, please? (Date, location, description of event, person involved, etc.)

[OXEL]

Sorry, but how do you know it's a friend of his that he is talking about? Is there any thread that preceded this one?

[prewitt81]

Sorry, but how do you know it's a friend of his that he is talking about? Is there any thread that preceded this one?

ok.. so if it was something like an arm growing back in front of your eyes (which a friend of mine has seen), that would do it?

Here you go.

[William Smith]

Sorry, but how do you know it's a friend of his that he is talking about? Is there any thread that preceded this one?

OXEL, I have to put you on ignore. I can't read your posts without covering the left side of my monitor. No offense. I can barely stand prewitt81's avatar.

(Ducking lightning bolt.)

At least he's keeping it real though.



Flandiddlyandas?

[OXEL]

Here you go.
Sorry, my bad. Thanks for the hint. I really thought I have read the whole thread carefully. :(

[prewitt81]

Sorry, my bad. Thanks for the hint. I really thought I have read the whole thread carefully. :(

It's cool. :)

I can barely stand prewitt81's avatar.

Harsh.

[OXEL]

Harsh.
And I was so full of hope, that on a sceptics forum, people would judge you by the words you say and not by your lookings. :(

-

I'm waiting for some details from ned also. :)

[William Smith]

...
Harsh.

(Ducking multiple lightning bolts.)

[streamlet]

ok.. so if it was something like an arm growing back in front of your eyes (which a friend of mine has seen), that would do it?

I saw it too! A couple Christmasses ago, there was this guy in his pajamas on some spaceship, had his hand cut off and it grew right back!

[Gord_in_Toronto]

OXEL, I have to put you on ignore. I can't read your posts without covering the left side of my monitor. No offense. I can barely stand prewitt81's avatar.

Open your browser in a window (not full screen) and move the left side off the screen. Sometimes this makes for more interesting reading and you can satisfy OXEL's hope that "And I was so full of hope, that on a sceptics forum, people would judge you by the words you say and not by your lookings." for every poster as well. :cool:

[rjh01]

Growing one's own arm back is a simple party trick.

[Cello Man]

Ned Flandas started a R&P thread on the 8th, asking if anyone believed in faith healing. See my question to him in post #14 in this link. http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=89587

"Ned, has a faith healer ever been able to regrow a severed limb? Why not? Why is it that prayers for medical "miracles" are always limited to things that have a statistical chance of happening naturally anyway?"

Also notice that Ned didn't answer my question on that thread. Now he starts a new thread here claiming that a "friend" of his has seen an arm grow back, a claim he did not originally espouse.

Color me skeptical.

ETA: UPDATE: I looked again and according to the forum clock, he posted the claim in this thread about the arm growing back about 20 minutes before I posed the question in the other thread. That still doesn't get him off the hook for providing evidence for his extraordinary claim.

[UltraTexan]

I feel sorry for the person with the ailment. That person could be off seeking real treatment.

[ned flandas]

ETA: UPDATE: I looked again and according to the forum clock, he posted the claim in this thread about the arm growing back about 20 minutes before I posed the question in the other thread. That still doesn't get him off the hook for providing evidence for his extraordinary claim.

Sorry, i missed that. What was your question?

[William Smith]

Sorry, i missed that. What was your question?

Celloman did not ask you anything, as far as I can see it. But I did. Here you go:

Assuming your friend wasn't chemically altered and this is not a prank, how did he make sure that what he saw was not a trick?

Will you provide more diddly-details, please? (Date, location, description of event, person involved, etc.)

[prewitt81]

Sorry, i missed that. What was your question?

I know you weren't asking me, but here's my question: http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2868164#post2868164

[Cello Man]

Ned Flandas,

Read my last post in #25 and follow the link. It's all there and I really don't care to repeat myself when it's right in front of you.

[Buckaroo]

I saw it too! A couple Christmasses ago, there was this guy in his pajamas on some spaceship, had his hand cut off and it grew right back!

Well, I got the reference, at least... :D

Great episode.

Although, isn't that just par for the course for a Time Lord in the middle of a regeneration? I wouldn't think he'd be eligible for the MDC.

[ned flandas]

Hmm. . . ok. What is the name of a medical doctor or doctors who can confirm that this happened?

I have no idea whether they did or not. I'll find out...

[Tricky]

ok.. so if it was something like an arm growing back in front of your eyes (which a friend of mine has seen), that would do it?
For some reason, these things always seem to be reported in the third person.

So Ned, do you believe your friend? Aren't you the slightest bit skeptical of such a claim? Would you believe me if I told you that I had regenerated missing limbs? If not, why not?

[Pyrts]

I can think of several ways to test this, including having people prayed over by folks of various faiths (and athiests, who can pretend to pray.) We can see whether the Wiccans' prayers promote faster healing.

Since it's doable in humans, it should be doable in, say, plants. There are ethical test protocols to prevent harm to humans, but nothing says you can't cut a blade of grass (as an example.)

[Gord_in_Toronto]

I can think of several ways to test this, including having people prayed over by folks of various faiths (and athiests, who can pretend to pray.) We can see whether the Wiccans' prayers promote faster healing.

Since it's doable in humans, it should be doable in, say, plants. There are ethical test protocols to prevent harm to humans, but nothing says you can't cut a blade of grass (as an example.)

I can grock that. :(

[JoeEllison]

I can think of several ways to test this, including having people prayed over by folks of various faiths (and athiests, who can pretend to pray.) We can see whether the Wiccans' prayers promote faster healing.

Since it's doable in humans, it should be doable in, say, plants. There are ethical test protocols to prevent harm to humans, but nothing says you can't cut a blade of grass (as an example.)
That's a horrible idea for a test. Plus, every time they do a prayer test, it fails miserably. :D

You know, though... they aren't claiming statistically significant outcomes for prayers. They are claiming limb regeneration and other simple "put up or shut up claims. Here's the test: walk into a hospital, and heal the entire burn unit. Regrow someone's hand in front of the doctors and on camera. Or, you know... they can admit that they are a fraud and we can move on.

[Miss Anthrope]

That's a horrible idea for a test. Plus, every time they do a prayer test, it fails miserably. :D

You know, though... they aren't claiming statistically significant outcomes for prayers. They are claiming limb regeneration and other simple "put up or shut up claims. Here's the test: walk into a hospital, and heal the entire burn unit. Regrow someone's hand in front of the doctors and on camera. Or, you know... they can admit that they are a fraud and we can move on.

Yes!

[prewitt81]

I say do the Old Testament let-the-true-god-answer-with-fire trick. I think any gods who do not answer with fire should be mocked just like Elijah did to Baal. Any gods.

[William Smith]

Diddly?

[JoeTheJuggler]

ned, it sounds like your criterion for believing an extraordinary claim is pretty low. You're not even up to "seeing is believing" but rather someone else's report of seeing something is good enough. Is there any claim that you would reject without more evidence? Space aliens, fairies, ghosts, etc? Where do you draw the line, if anywhere?

Have you (or your friend) ever been to a good magic show? Do you think these guys actually levitate, vanish objects, and so on?

[RemieV]

Have you (or your friend) ever been to a good magic show? Do you think these guys actually levitate, vanish objects, and so on?

Many individuals write to the Challenge e-mail and suggest we investigate the clearly paranormal abilities of Criss Angel, David Blaine, etc.

I'm never sure if they really believe the illusions are paranormal, or if they just want someone to respond and say how the trick is done.

[robinson]

I'm betting they think it is real paranormal powers. It is quite easy to find how the tricks are done, using the Internets.

[William Smith]

I have no idea whether they did or not. I'll find out...

Have you foun-diddly-ound something, ned flandas?