Is Patriotism horrific?

[Undesired Walrus]

Kafka often said that all the world problems stem from nationalism.

I'd be inclined to agree, partially with his words.

I always boast about what a great city London is, the multicultural hights and the crimespot lows still make my city, well, 'great'.

But, recently, I have made myself careful not to crap all over people who visit here as tourists, and sneer at them as non-Londoners.

Nizar Qabbani said that a woman should have equal rights, and love as any man can love, because we can all look, under a dictatorship or democracy, at the same beautiful sunset in the evening dusk. We can all smell the same air, and touch the same stumps of trees.

Why should this patriotism exist? Why should be value our monarchy, and you your constitution, or the Czech Republic its poetry, without realising this all came from the same hand, the Human hand.

By all means we should be proud to live where we are, but.. something about Penn and Tellers patriotism trick always makes me feel angry.

[Zep]

Please don't confuse "nationalism", "patriotism", and "jingoism". They are NOT interchangeable concepts and do not mean the same thing around the world, although they are all of a topic.

[Oliver]

If it leads to support unjustified Wars, it is a problem. A very huge one.

And what is the Penn and Teller Patriotism-Trick??? :confused:

[Oliver]

Got it...

jF2iX2VG6e4

[frank462]

Is Patriotism horrific?


I wonder how 300 Spartans would answer that question.

[Damien Evans]

I wonder how 300 Spartans would answer that question.

They'd point you to the hot gates.

[Nitpick]

I wonder how 300 Spartans would answer that question.


Yes, and I wonder how the thousands of Spartan children deemed unworthy to live would have answered it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Sparta#Society

It's a complex reality and I think that it's hard for anyone to be truly patriotic without closing his/her eyes towards some of it.

[Darth Rotor]

Kafka often said that all the world problems stem from nationalism.
Kafka was making a rather broad generalization, don't you think?
Nizar Qabbani said that a woman should have equal rights, and love as any man can love, because we can all look, under a dictatorship or democracy, at the same beautiful sunset in the evening dusk. We can all smell the same air, and touch the same stumps of trees.
That's a fine sentiment. What has that to do with patriotism.

Why should this patriotism exist?
It is one manifestation of a common human trait: group identity. That is why it exists. Scaling up from family clan and loca social alliances to nation may be uneven, but the core idea is the same. "We" to one degree or another.

Why should be value our monarchy, and you your constitution, or the Czech Republic its poetry, without realising this all came from the same hand, the Human hand.
Because they didn't come from the same hand. There are many human hands, and each grouping is shaped by different hands. As the French say, vive la difference! :)
By all means we should be proud to live where we are, but.. something about Penn and Tellers patriotism trick always makes me feel angry.
It's a trick.

DR

[billydkid]

Please don't confuse "nationalism", "patriotism", and "jingoism". They are NOT interchangeable concepts and do not mean the same thing around the world, although they are all of a topic.Yes, these are important distinctions. Also, it is significant whether one is patriotic for the sake of being patriotic or if one is patriotic because of the values one's nation personifies. For my thinking, what makes being a patriotic American meaningful are the values which America, supposedly, represents. It is interesting the way the founders are always referred to as patriots - which is completely odd when you consider they were revolutionaries fighting against their own country and government - so patriotism is one of those expressions of convenience.

[Cleon]

I wonder how 300 Spartans would answer that question.

It was a movie, frank. Just a movie.

[Damien Evans]

It was a movie, frank. Just a movie.

and a historical event, which another movie, The 300 Spartans portrays much more accurately (not perfectly, but as good as you can expect from Hollywood)

[Cuddles]

Kafka often said that all the world problems stem from nationalism.

And religion is the cause of all wars and money is the root of all evil. Unless your religion involves a nation where the streets genuinely are paved with gold, I get the impression that some generalistions may not be entirely true.

[Nitpick]

...I get the impression that some generalistions may not be entirely true.

Yes, generalisations are the cause of all evil... :)

[Mycroft]

Kafka often said that all the world problems stem from nationalism.

Well, Kafka was wrong.

People commit all sorts of crimes motivated by love, but that doesn't make love a bad thing. In exactly the same way, love of a nation, people, culture or place is not itself a bad thing (really, it's a good thing), it only becomes a bad thing when people are motivated to do bad things from this love.

When we start embracing the idea that love and pride are itself bad things and stop considering the real causes of wars and such, then it's time for us all to sit back and wait for the realization of Huxley's "Brave New World" where we can all just take our Soma pills and just prevent any emotion that might lead to conflict and then abdicate our individual abilities to think for ourselves.

[frank462]

It was a movie, frank. Just a movie.


Battle of Thermopylae (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Thermopylae)


In the Battle of Thermopylae of 480 BC, an alliance of Greek city-states fought the invading Persian Empire at the pass of Thermopylae in central Greece. Vastly outnumbered, the Greeks held back the Persians for three days in one of history's most famous last stands. A small force led by King Leonidas of Sparta blocked the only road through which the massive army of Xerxes I of Persia (Xerxes the Great) could pass. After three days of battle, a local resident named Ephialtes betrayed the Greeks by revealing a mountain path that led behind the Greek lines. Dismissing the rest of the army, King Leonidas stayed behind with 300 Spartans and 700 Thespian volunteers. The Persians succeeded in taking the pass but sustained heavy losses, extremely disproportionate to those of the Greeks. The fierce resistance of the Spartan-led army offered Athens the invaluable time to prepare for a decisive naval battle that would come to determine the outcome of the war.

[Phrost]

There's nothing wrong with being proud of or committed to the ideals on which your country was founded.

[Cleon]

Battle of Thermopylae (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Thermopylae)

Yes, frank. The movie was "based on real events," but it was still just a movie.

[Undesired Walrus]

Hmm.. looking over my thread I think I'm turning into a bit of an Oliver. Too many questions, hidden under what I really think.

I'm sticking to posting in other people's threads for a while....;)

[Pardalis]

Like anything else, patriotism and nationalism are OK sentiments unless they are pushed to their extremes.

[dudalb]

And religion is the cause of all wars and money is the root of all evil. Unless your religion involves a nation where the streets genuinely are paved with gold, I get the impression that some generalistions may not be entirely true.


Agreed. Patriotism can be used for good...or bad...purposes.

[Crossbow]

I wonder how 300 Spartans would answer that question.

I expect that the 300 Spartans would much more concerned with how King Leonadis was feeling as opposed to their own indvidual feelings.

[Nitpick]

Hmm.. looking over my thread I think I'm turning into a bit of an Oliver. Too many questions, hidden under what I really think.
I'm sticking to posting in other people's threads for a while....;)



Oliverizing other people's threads then, eh? ;)


Also, it might be my faulty English but: "Too many questions, hidden under what I really think" ?
don't you mean it the other way around?
What you're describing really sounds like an extreme form of quiet sincerity... :)

[Flo]

There's nothing wrong with being proud of or committed to the ideals on which your country was founded.

Depends on what the ideals are ...

[Damien Evans]

Depends on what the ideals are ...

Rape, murder, arson and rape:D

[Flo]

Rape, murder, arson and rape:D


Necrophilia is bad enough, but with a burnt body ... :rolleyes: :p

[Marquis de Carabas]

Necrophilia is bad enough, but with a burnt body ... :rolleyes: :p
It's preferable to a cold one.

[Darth Rotor]

It's preferable to a cold one.
Think of the cold corpse as gespacho.

DR

[Damien Evans]

Necrophilia is bad enough, but with a burnt body ... :rolleyes: :p

It's from Blazing Saddles, I'm surprised I didn't get the obvious response

[chocolatepossum]

The good thing about patriotism is, IMO, that it makes the people of a couintry feel closer to each other - that they're all in it together (whatever it is). The bad thing about patriotism is that it's impossible to unite a people in this way without, at the same time, alienating them from other nations - you can't really have an "us" without a "them" . In the [horrendous cliche] increasingly globalised world in which we live [/horrendous cliche] I feel that the bad side is becoming more of a problem.

[Big Les]

It's from Blazing Saddles, I'm surprised I didn't get the obvious response

I'm feeling charitable, so I'll point out that you said "rape" twice...

[Damien Evans]

I'm feeling charitable, so I'll point out that you said "rape" twice...

I like rape:D

[Big Les]

And off to the "quote other posters out of context" thread goes that one...

;)

[TragicMonkey]

I wonder how 300 Spartans would answer that question.

Probably differently than their 300,000 helots.

[RandFan]

If it leads to support unjustified Wars, it is a problem. A very huge one.

And what is the Penn and Teller Patriotism-Trick??? :confused:
Got it...

jF2iX2VG6e4 I can't help but jump up and down and scream DID YOU WATCH THE VIDEO? Did you even bother to watch it? Did you get anything from it at all other than the fact that they dared suggest that they might have burned a flag?

Penn and Teller admit to being "patriotic".
They admit to loving their nation.
They compare the USA to China.I think you might have been better to have gone with the West Wing Version of the video.

NymRecFWgAs

It still wouldn't have made a point against patriotism.

"Because even if the flag is gone the Bill of Rights still remains."

:)

[RandFan]

Please don't confuse "nationalism", "patriotism", and "jingoism". They are NOT interchangeable concepts and do not mean the same thing around the world, although they are all of a topic.Yes, however we need to guard against jingoism. Patriotism can lead to jingoism and nationalism.

[Hawk one]

And of course, another thing to be guarding against is when the word "patriotism" is abused into meaning "If you don't agree with this, you're a traitor", or "Never question the government." That sort of abuse is, I believe, at least partially the reason the line between patriotism, and nationalism and jingoism has been blurred.

[Mycroft]

...The bad thing about patriotism is that it's impossible to unite a people in this way without, at the same time, alienating them from other nations - you can't really have an "us" without a "them".

Except that's not at all true.

As a patriotic citizen, I love the United States.

That fact has absolutely nothing to do with my feelings towards Canada, France, Uzbekistan, or any other nation on this Earth.

Your us/them is a false dichotomy.

I love my family. That doesn't mean I hate other families.

I love my wife. That doesn't mean I hate other women.

I like my car. That doesn't mean I hate other cars.

See? The dichotomy is a product of your own imagination. Love of one thing does not require disdain for anything else. You can like, love, hate or feel neutral towards all things independently of each other.

[Mycroft]

And of course, another thing to be guarding against is when the word "patriotism" is abused into meaning "If you don't agree with this, you're a traitor", or "Never question the government." That sort of abuse is, I believe, at least partially the reason the line between patriotism, and nationalism and jingoism has been blurred.

Agreed!

[TragicMonkey]

I say I love my country, but really I'm just saying that to get it into bed. We get along okay, and there's some chemistry there, but I'm not promising to stick around if something better comes along. A younger country, say, better looking and with more money. I mean, yeah, I value all our history together, but let's be honest: what do you expect me to do if some other country shows up, flaunting better natural resources and a flirty manner? You knew what this was from the beginning, America. Oh, for the love of God, here come the waterworks. Well, fine, cry if you want to. Go complain to your mother, Britain. Sheesh. This is why I don't talk like to talk to you about our relationship when I'm trying to watch TV.

[El_Spectre]

Patriotism, as practiced by many Americans, is fairly scary. I refer not to love of homeland, or willingness to defend it, but to the assumption of supremacy.

I'm a big fan of this country, I really am, but we have "USA #1" beaten into us since birth, and it really IS a form of nationalism, almost racism (ok, we have many races, but it comes down to "us" vs "foreigners"). That bias can, and has, led this country to do some horrific things, on the presumption that we are "#1".

Or, to quote the late Mr Hicks: "I hate patriotism.... can't stand it.... it's a round world, last I checked"

[Pardalis]

Nationalism sometimes can be a good thing. We had a nationalist awakening in the sixties in Québec, which lead to laws that ensured that French would remain our everyday language. I think without these we wouldn't be living in French today, or at least very little.

http://portal.unesco.org/shs/en/ev.php-URL_ID=2719&URL_DO=DO_TOPIC&URL_SECTION=201.html

It's just a matter of being confident about who you are, and proud, and wanting to preserve your culture (given our predicament in the north American continent). Nothing wrong with that (of course unless it is pushed to an extreme, which hasn't been the case here).

[El_Spectre]

It's just a matter of being confident about who you are, and proud [snip]

So, here's the question.... why pride? I don't mean you, or your country specifically, but why are people proud of something they have no control over? Isn't national pride just the same as racial pride? Are either a good thing?

[Pardalis]

So, here's the question.... why pride? I don't mean you, or your country specifically, but why are people proud of something they have no control over? Isn't national pride just the same as racial pride? Are either a good thing?

Of course no one has control of who they are, but everyone has control on what they do. But if you are unable to do what you want because of who you are, now there is a problem. If you overcome the obstacles that inhibit you, now there's something to be proud of. Even if you don't have any obstacles, you still can be proud of what you've accomplished. I just don't see why that would be a bad thing.

[El_Spectre]

I don't disagree at all. I'm proud of some accomplishments, but not particularly proud (or ashamed) of my origins.

[Pardalis]

I don't disagree at all. I'm proud of some accomplishments, but not particularly proud (or ashamed) of my origins.

I understand. It's not really the origins that count (I don't think French is better than English, sometimes for certain things I find French to be antiquated) but it's what we do. But necessarily, who you are has an effect on what you do, it gives it a certain color, it makes it something unique. So in essence, when you celebrate your national holiday, you're not saying : Hey we're good because we're [insert nation or culture], but rather :Hey, we [insert nation or culture] have done quite well.

I see a difference, but maybe it's just me. :D

[DanishDynamite]

Just a minor point: Patriotism, nationalism and jingoism only came into being very recently. They were concepts invented shortly after nation-states were invented, a thousand or two years ago.

[RandFan]

Patriotism, as practiced by many Americans, is fairly scary. I refer not to love of homeland, or willingness to defend it, but to the assumption of supremacy.

I'm a big fan of this country, I really am, but we have "USA #1" beaten into us since birth, and it really IS a form of nationalism, almost racism (ok, we have many races, but it comes down to "us" vs "foreigners"). That bias can, and has, led this country to do some horrific things, on the presumption that we are "#1".

I just want to say that my perspective and my experience isn't the same as yours.

I'm an unabashed patriot. I can criticize my country and respect those who burn the flag and even hate my nation.

That's how great is. We let people stay here who hate it. In North Korea or other parts of the world you can be shot or put in prison.

There is one hell of a lot to love. As long as you recognize the warts and respect those who disagree then patriotism is a very beautiful thing.

Or, to quote the late Mr Hicks: "I hate patriotism.... can't stand it.... it's a round world, last I checked"When it can be said that people aren't shot or put in jail for their religious or political affiliation and when girls aren't mutilated in the name of religion and when genocide is a thing of the past then this will have meaning. Not until.

I love freedom. I love democracy. I won't appologize for that and I won't pretend that hell holes like North Korea or Darfur are somehow just different from where I live and therefore I should not be grateful to those who gave their lives in the hope that I would have freedom and democracy or that I should not love where I live.

[El_Spectre]

I just want to say that my perspective and my experience isn't the same as yours.


I don't disagree. My objection is to the assumption of supremacy, and the scary things that can come from that. Nothing you say reflects that kind of attitude.

This is why I said "many americans", not all :) I love it here too, thats why I hate to see my country behave so badly sometimes.

[Mycroft]

So, here's the question.... why pride? I don't mean you, or your country specifically, but why are people proud of something they have no control over?

Why not be proud of what you are, whatever that may be? Every culture everywhere has something good about it, probably many things, why not celebrate them?


Isn't national pride just the same as racial pride? Are either a good thing?

You seem to make an assumption that racial pride means racial superiority, but it's not at all the same. Celebrating your culture, your religion, your people is a good thing. Nothing about doing it requires that you denigrate any other people, religion or culture.

[El_Spectre]

Why not be proud of what you are, whatever that may be? Every culture everywhere has something good about it, probably many things, why not celebrate them?

So, what exactly is it that "what you are" means? Skin color? language? Maybe historical military prowess? None of these things are anything you (generic you) did, so why be proud?


You seem to make an assumption that racial pride means racial superiority, but it's not at all the same. Celebrating your culture, your religion, your people is a good thing. Nothing about doing it requires that you denigrate any other people, religion or culture.

What exactly is being celebrated then? Skin chemistry?

A quasi related anecdote: centuries ago, my family lived in Scotland. A few years back, discussing heritage, a Scottish fellow told me "Once clan Campbell, ALWAYS clan Campbell". He was somewhat disgusted with my response "that's how blood feuds start".


I can understand being happy about where you live, agreeing with the principles of the society, etc. Hell, I'm glad I live here where we still have a lot of freedoms. But pride? No. I was born here.

[Mycroft]

So, what exactly is it that "what you are" means? Skin color? language? Maybe historical military prowess? None of these things are anything you (generic you) did, so why be proud?

A better question is why not?


What exactly is being celebrated then? Skin chemistry?

Culture, cuisine, music, dance, philosophy...whatever your culture has to offer. What do they celebrate at Oktoberfest? On Saint Patrick's Day? Or Cinco de Mayo?

A quasi related anecdote: centuries ago, my family lived in Scotland. A few years back, discussing heritage, a Scottish fellow told me "Once clan Campbell, ALWAYS clan Campbell". He was somewhat disgusted with my response "that's how blood feuds start".

I think he was right. How would identifying as "clan Campbell" start a blood feud? You seem to be missing a lot of important steps there.


I can understand being happy about where you live, agreeing with the principles of the society, etc. Hell, I'm glad I live here where we still have a lot of freedoms. But pride? No. I was born here.

So you think that's all there is to it? The place you were born just is what it is and nothing you do can have any effect on it?

A place is a reflection of the people who live there. If you have pride in your place, whatever that place is, you are motivated to preserve that which is good about it and to improve that which isn't so good. Pride means you will want your children to enjoy the same things about it that you enjoyed, and you will want visitors to come away with a good impression.

Does having pride in your nation, city, region or whatever mean that other nations, cities or regions are bad? No, but it can certainly be a motivator to keep your nation, city or region good.

[El_Spectre]

A better question is why not?

I suppose that's a difference in philosophy. I generally need a reason to take a positive action (be happy, proud, whatever). "Why not" isn't how I think.




I think he was right. How would identifying as "clan Campbell" start a blood feud? You seem to be missing a lot of important steps there.

Think Hatfields and McCoys. Think gang violence. Think religious feuding.

So you think that's all there is to it? The place you were born just is what it is and nothing you do can have any effect on it?


No, but then again, that's not what I was claiming. I'm discussing "pride", not the potential of the people who grow up in a given place.

A place is a reflection of the people who live there. If you have pride in your place, whatever that place is, you are motivated to preserve that which is good about it and to improve that which isn't so good. Pride means you will want your children to enjoy the same things about it that you enjoyed, and you will want visitors to come away with a good impression.

Does having pride in your nation, city, region or whatever mean that other nations, cities or regions are bad? No, but it can certainly be a motivator to keep your nation, city or region good.

OK, and all those things can also be warped into reason to fight, kill and hate. All based on accident of birth. No thanks. There are very good, pragmatic reasons for supporting, participating and defending your homeland without some sentimental attachment to history.

[RandFan]

I don't disagree. My objection is to the assumption of supremacy, and the scary things that can come from that. Nothing you say reflects that kind of attitude.

This is why I said "many americans", not all :) I love it here too, thats why I hate to see my country behave so badly sometimes. Whew,

My post was at first laden with negative rhetoric. I read your post again and thought better of my post and edited it. I then wasn't certain how much to edit.

I get myself into more trouble making unwaranted assumptions.

[Mycroft]

I suppose that's a difference in philosophy. I generally need a reason to take a positive action (be happy, proud, whatever). "Why not" isn't how I think.

So you can't think of anything positive about your culture to be proud of? How sad.


Think Hatfields and McCoys. Think gang violence. Think religious feuding.

That's a huge jump from identifying as "clan Campbell" or whatever to blood feuds and gang violence. There are a lot of missing steps there.




No, but then again, that's not what I was claiming. I'm discussing "pride", not the potential of the people who grow up in a given place.

Obviously pride means something very different to you than it does to me. You seem to see it as a justification for violence, where I see it as a much more positive motivator. What I'm trying to impress upon you is that your negative point of view is a personal choice.


OK, and all those things can also be warped into reason to fight, kill and hate. All based on accident of birth. No thanks. There are very good, pragmatic reasons for supporting, participating and defending your homeland without some sentimental attachment to history.

All kinds of things can be warped into rationalizations for violence, but that doesn't make them inherently bad. Heck, a parents love of their children can be warped into a justification to kill, do you recoment parents stop loving their kids?

[El_Spectre]

I think I've said what I wanted to say here, I see no upside to battling strawmen at this point. Cheers :)

[UserGoogol]

I understand. It's not really the origins that count (I don't think French is better than English, sometimes for certain things I find French to be antiquated) but it's what we do. But necessarily, who you are has an effect on what you do, it gives it a certain color, it makes it something unique. So in essence, when you celebrate your national holiday, you're not saying : Hey we're good because we're [insert nation or culture], but rather :Hey, we [insert nation or culture] have done quite well.

I see a difference, but maybe it's just me. :D

There's a difference, but I don't see how it's meaningful. You're still associated yourself with some arbitrary group of people for some reason, and that's illogical. To pick a purposefully silly example, why should you be proud of what Celine Dion does but not what Elton John does? That Celine Dion happened to be born in a certain tract of land which is governed by the same local government as yours and in which there has been somewhat of a tradition.

It is a great injustice when a person's identity is tied to their community. A person does not choose their community, it just gets thrust upon them by reality. When a person feels forced to. If a person feels patriotic, that should be tolerated, but it's far better for people to feel no patriotism at all so they can be truly free. To paraphrase Thomas Jefferson, I believe that people should have peace, commerce and honest friendship with all people--entangling alliances with none. To associate yourself with some people more than others, be that association based on race, family, or nationality, you are producing suboptimal results. If you are free to pick whichever team looks nice at any point in time, you have far more range to optimize happiness.

I don't think I can say that patriotism is horrific as such, in that it can certainly be aimed towards good ends, but it certainly is not good.

I love freedom. I love democracy. I won't appologize for that and I won't pretend that hell holes like North Korea or Darfur are somehow just different from where I live and therefore I should not be grateful to those who gave their lives in the hope that I would have freedom and democracy or that I should not love where I live.

Yes, but what does that have to with patriotism? Yes, America has all those things, but so does Canada, and yet if you were especially proud of Canada, you wouldn't be considered patriotic, and if you lived in North Korea and felt the way you currently do you wouldn't be patriotic at all. You're only a patriot because you happened to end up in one of the good countries.

[Pardalis]

There's a difference, but I don't see how it's meaningful. You're still associated yourself with some arbitrary group of people for some reason, and that's illogical.

First of all it's not an arbitrary group of people, it's the people you grow up with, the culture you are raised in. And secondly, how is it illogical? What rules of logic are broken here? :confused:

It is a great injustice when a person's identity is tied to their community. A person does not choose their community, it just gets thrust upon them by reality.So?

When a person feels forced to. Then they are free to be not patriotic.

If a person feels patriotic, that should be tolerated, but it's far better for people to feel no patriotism at all so they can be truly free. To paraphrase Thomas Jefferson, I believe that people should have peace, commerce and honest friendship with all people--entangling alliances with none. To associate yourself with some people more than others, be that association based on race, family, or nationality, you are producing suboptimal results. If you are free to pick whichever team looks nice at any point in time, you have far more range to optimize happiness.It's funny that you chose Thomas Jefferson of all people.

I don't see how patriotism or nationalism (in its mild form) is an obstacle to freedom. I think identity is important for a person, maybe not you. People who value their nation and culture are not less free than people with no attachment with no country whatsoever. I for one pity them, but if they like it this way, then so be it.